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您正在收听《一千零一张专辑俱乐部》，每期节目我们会讨论罗伯特·亨利所著《死前必听的1001张专辑》中的不同专辑。
You're listening to one thousand and one Album Club, where each episode, we discuss a different album from Robert Henry's book, 1,001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die.
本期节目，我们将要讨论山羊皮乐队(Suede)的同名专辑《Suede》。
For this episode, we'll be talking about Suede, their album Suede.
现场有罗伯。
In the room, I have Rob.
是我。
It's a me.
线上还有本。
And on the line, have Ben.
这是英伦摇滚。
It's a Britpop.
以及凯尔。
And Kyle.
果浆乐队搞了安慰剂乐队吗？
Did Pulp fuck placebo?
《Suede》是英国另类摇滚乐队山羊皮于1993年3月在Nude唱片公司发行的首张专辑。
Suede is the debut album by English alternative rock band Suede released on March 1993 on nude records.
制作人是埃德·鲍勒，音乐类型包括英伦摇滚、另类摇滚和华丽摇滚。
The producer was Ed Bowler, and the genre is Britpop, alternative rock, and glam rock.
我来读一段书中的内容。
I'm gonna read from the book.
杰克·肯尼迪。
Jake Kennedy.
山羊皮乐队的首秀为一场媒体风暴画上句点，这场风暴始于他们未发一曲便登上了《旋律制造者》杂志封面。
Suede's debut sealed the end of a media whirlwind that had begun earlier that year with the band scoring a Melody Maker cover before actually releasing a note.
尽管深受大卫·鲍伊、史密斯乐队等影响，这支五人乐队仍成功打造了一张与当时盛行的垃圾摇滚和懒散风格截然不同的专辑。
Very much of the sum of their influences, David Bowie, the Smiths, the five piece nevertheless succeeded making an album at odds with the fast approaching grunge and slacker, Moors of the period.
再加上那份耐性，以及对双性恋的暧昧态度，构成了令人难以抗拒的组合。
Add to this the patience, a flirtation with bisexuality, and you had an irresistible combination.
从《So Young》第一声鼓点响起，山羊皮就开启了一场融合华丽摇滚与都市阴郁的震撼之旅。
From the very first drum blast of So Young, Suede is an arresting journey that takes in glam rock and bleak very urban depression.
然而对伦敦生活中更阴暗危险层面的关注，也赋予了他们制造巨大声浪的广阔空间。
Yet the focus on the seedier, more dangerous aspects of London life also gave them great scope to make an a noise.
《Animal Lover》据传是写给模糊乐队主唱戴蒙·阿尔伯恩的。
Animal Lover allegedly written about Damon Auburn of Blur.
安德森前女友的新男友来自Squeeze乐队。
New boyfriend of Anderson's ex Squeeze.
贾斯汀·费里斯曼的尖叫冲击感官，《金属米奇》则充满振奋感——尽管带着卫星城的压抑气质。
Justine Freshman was a shrieking jolt to the senses, and metal Mickey was wholly uplifting, albeit in a frustrated satellite town way.
安德森英伦中心的歌词与山羊皮厚重的吉他音效，为英伦摇滚奠定了模板，但乐队的目光早已超越其他新人艺术家。
Anderson's anglocentric lyrics and Suede's guitar heavy sound effectively created a blueprint for Britpop, but the group already had their sights set way above those of other debut artists.
好吧。
Alright.
我们怎么评价山羊皮？
What do we think of Suede?
山羊皮。
Suede.
太棒了。
It's great.
第一次听。
First listen.
是啊。
Yeah.
我也是第一次听。
First listen for me too.
我也是。
Me too.
不知怎么的
Somehow
对啊。
Yeah.
一样。
Same.
很棒的唱片。
Beautiful record.
只是
Just
只知道专辑封面。
knew the album cover.
从没听说过梅尔这个人。
Never heard the never heard of Mel.
是啊。
Yeah.
一样。
Same.
我一直知道这张唱片值得一听。
Always knew it was a record I should check out.
就是啊。
It's yeah.
一样。
Same.
我不知道为什么。
I don't know why.
我有果肉。
I had pulp.
我爱果肉。
I love pulp.
我有点模糊，就像其他那些，比如绿洲乐队，很明显。
I I'm blur, like, all the other sort of, like, oasis, obviously.
你知道吗？
You know?
只是我觉得它在美国没火起来，老兄。
It's just I don't think it ever hit stateside, man.
我想也是。
I guess not.
这张唱片里的吉他演奏真是绝妙。
There is some really tasty guitar work on this record.
确实如此。
Very much so.
我感受到了很多米克·朗森的韵味，嗯。
I was getting a lot of Mick Ronson vibes and just Mhmm.
那种拨弦的感觉，对，就是那种感觉。
Feeling the sort of, like, sort of, like, strumming and yeah.
我太喜欢了。
I I love it.
太棒了。
It was great.
特别是《The Drowners》，我觉得听起来非常华丽，真的很华丽。
The the drowners in particular, I thought that sounds really glammy, really glammy.
然后第四首《Moving》，我倒不一定听出史密斯乐队的风格，但能感受到很多约翰尼·马尔的味道。
And then, like, track four moving, I I don't necessarily hear the Smiths, but I hear a lot of Johnny Marr in it.
毫无疑问。
For sure.
有趣的是每次听到《Moving》这个歌名，我就会想到超级草乐队。
It's funny whenever I hear the song title moving, I think of super grass.
不过这张唱片，天哪。
That was but, yeah, this record, oh my god.
这简直是启示录。
This is revelation.
但我觉得自己像个混蛋。
But I felt like an asshole.
我当时想，我一直都知道自己应该听这个乐队的歌。
I was like, I've always known I should listen to this band.
爱死保罗了。
Love Paul.
你懂吗？
You know?
这些都爱。
Love all these.
明白吗？
You know?
爱死Elastika乐队了。
Love Elastika.
拜托。
Come on.
从没放过这张唱片。
Never put this record on.
从没在这张绝妙唱片上放过唱针。
Never dropped the needle on this amazing record.
不过我不知道为什么。
I don't know why, though.
不过你说得对。
Is it you're right, though.
我是说，我们就是不在其中
I mean, we it just is not in our
我认为是个误解
I think a misperation.
我我我毛细血管
I I I capillaries.
我知道詹姆斯的事
I knew about James.
没没他妈听这个
Didn't didn't fucking listen to this one.
就像，詹姆斯有过
Like, James had
不过在美国本土有首超火的电台单曲
a huge radio single stateside though.
我不知道
I don't know.
动摇了
Swayed it.
好吧
Okay.
这肯定和电台有关，可能也因为我们比大学电台播放的音乐稍微年轻一点
It it has to be the radio thing and probably just us being ever so slightly younger than what the college radio was playing.
我想是吧
I guess so.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们生不逢时，晚出生了四年。
We were it we were born four years too late.
嗯，结果就在那儿。
Well, turns out there.
这张专辑，我也挺惊讶的，感觉它更...我不想说永恒，但它确实有种华丽摇滚的元素。
This this album, I I was kinda struck too that it feels more I don't wanna say timeless, but it has that sort of element of it brings in glam rock.
它融合了所有元素，你懂吗？
It brings in everything that's you know?
所以我觉得如果我晚些听到这张专辑，听起来也不会有什么不同。
So I I feel like if I would've heard this later, it wouldn't have sound different.
我还是会喜欢上的，我是说，我本来就喜欢史密斯乐队。
I still would have picked up on I mean, I love the Smiths.
这个绝对是的。
So this Absolutely.
完全沾边
Totally adjacent
了。
to it.
我喜欢史密斯乐队。
I like Smiths.
我喜欢保罗。
I like Paul.
我喜欢鲍伊。
I like Bowie.
是啊。
Yeah.
我喜欢那些喷绘的中性人接吻的照片。
I liked airbrushed pictures of androgynous people making out.
对。
Yeah.
我
I
可不会在货车侧面画那种东西。
wouldn't get that on the side of a van a van.
哦，老兄。
Oh, dude.
太棒了。
Heck yeah.
这张专辑承载了太多个人痛苦。
So much so much personal pain on this record.
这张小专辑很棒，就像你真的很伤心还扭着小屁股的那种专辑。
This is a great little, like, you're really being sad and shaking your little butt album.
天啊。
Like, oh my god.
你能想象吗？如果你和Elastica乐队的女士在一起，然后Blur乐队的Stoller突然出现？
Could you imagine if you were with a lady from Elastica and then somebody from Blur Stoller?
她会写歌吗
Would she write
史上最悲伤的唱片？
the saddest record of all time?
是啊。
Yeah.
我听这张专辑时哭了。
I I cried listening to this album.
我无法想象。
I couldn't imagine.
我想象过。
I did imagine.
这就是我哭的原因。
That's why I cried.
是啊。
Yeah.
《滚石》杂志称其三部曲单曲为即时经典。
Rolling Stones called its triptych of instant classic singles.
《Drowners》、《Metal Mickey》和《Animal Nitrate》这三支单曲制造了媒体热议，为专辑发行前造势长达一年之久。
The three singles, the Drowners, Metal Mickey, and Animal Nitrate helped create media buzz leading to significant hype for a year leading to the album's release.
在英国和美国发布后获得了积极评价。
It was met with favorable reviews after in The UK, US.
我是说，他们当时有点像，怎么说呢，就像性手枪乐队那样备受期待。
So I I mean, it seems like they were kind of the, what did say, like, Sex Pistols at the time, how they were so anticipated.
相信我。
Trust me.
性手枪乐队一年半都没有发行专辑。
The Sex Pistols didn't have an album for a year and a half.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
所有人都在问，这张专辑到底在哪？
And everyone was just like, where is this album?
比如，我们什么时候才能拿到这张专辑？
Like, when is when are we gonna get our hands on this album?
等它一发行，大家都觉得，确实是张不错的专辑。
And then once it was released, everyone was like, that was pretty good album.
就像，它确实不负众望。
Like like, it lived up to the hype.
不负众望。
Up to the hype.
不知怎么的。
Somehow.
动物硝酸盐，嗯哼。
So animal nitrate, that's a Mhmm.
那是在玩文字游戏，肛门硝酸盐。
That that is a play on, anal nitrate.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我不知道接下来该说什么。
I don't know where to go from that.
你你完全让我倒胃口。
You you completely turn me off.
呃，我们正在听《她没死》。
Well, we're listening to She's Not Dead.
凯尔做了笔记。
Kyle's got notes.
是啊。
Yeah.
那高假声是唯一让我觉得有点意思的部分。
The the high falsetto was the only thing that I was, like, interesting.
我得花点时间才能进入状态。
I had to it took me a minute to kinda get in there.
这非常...
It's very.
黑色塑料浇水壶？
Black plastic watering can?
异想天开的。
Whimsical.
是啊。
Yeah.
有点电台司令的感觉。
It has a bit of the Radiohead vibes.
哦，天哪。
Oh, heavens.
没错。
Yes.
哪里
Where
巴勃罗·蜂蜜是哪一年发行的？
What year does the does Pablo Honey come out?
是93年还是94年？
Was that '93 or '94?
我想是94年。
'94, I think.
所以这个对。
So this yeah.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
因为我听到了很多重复的片段，嗯。
Because I was I heard a lot of licks Mhmm.
就是这张Radiohead借鉴过的唱片，像是为后期作品准备的。
In this record that Radiohead nicked, like, for later stuff.
百分之百。
100%.
这个...我只是...真希望我一直在听这个。
This is I just I wish I've been listening to this.
这真的很棒。
This is really good.
他们后来还出了续作专辑。
They had follow-up albums.
我们了解吗？
Do we know?
我们...我们...我们能听到吗？
Are are are we getting any?
那些专辑好吗？
Are they good?
据说比这张更好。
Reportedly better than this one.
是的。
Yes.
哦，太酷了。
Oh, cool.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们还会再得到一个Swaydom。
We will get be getting one more Swaydom.
不错。
Neat.
我读到一篇关于这张唱片的乐评说：'我个人喜欢山羊皮乐队，因为他们将高度戏剧性、暗黑时尚和炽热情感重新带回了一个被垃圾摇滚过度消解这些元素的世界。'
One of the reviews I read for this for this record said, personally, I liked Suede because they brought high drama, dark fashion, and writhing passion back into a world where those things had been rendered excessive by grunge.
好吧。
Okay.
这就是所谓的'Yeah'。
And that's the Yeah.
你知道，
You know,
我的意思是，我们正在把这些90年代初的第二次英伦摇滚入侵和垃圾摇滚放在一起对比。
I mean, like, we're we're juxtaposing all this, like, you know, second British invasion rock, you know, in the early nineties with grunge.
比如，我还记得第一次看到Pulp乐队《普通人》MV时的震撼。
Like, I remember the first time I saw a a fucking pulp music video for ordinary people.
我当时就想，这完全看不懂啊。
I was like, I don't understand this.
就是这种，你懂吗？
Like, this you know?
我更习惯看《实习医生风云》里那种苦哈哈的日子。
I'm used to, you know, looking at Scrubs scraping by.
我们身处垃圾摇滚风潮，而他们正过着艰难的生活。
We're in grunge, and they're having a hard knock life.
然后你会看到，贾维斯·科克穿着精致的小西装，扭动他的小屁股。
And then you see, you know, Jarvis Cocker wearing a nice little suit and shaking his little hips.
一些不起眼的小乐队。
Some little bandies.
我该如何认同那种风格？
How do I identify with that?
你懂吗？
You know?
Brainiac乐队也是同样的情况。
That was the same thing with Brainiac.
我当时想，他们怎么能把垃圾摇滚、无浪潮与高级时装混搭在一起。
I was like, how are they they're they're blending grunge and no wave with high couture.
这就是为什么像山羊皮这样的乐队在当时对我来说是个盲点。
Like, this is why bands like Suede were kind of a blind spot for me at at this time.
即使我以为自己已经通过果浆乐队和可能Portus Head这样的乐队突破了局限。
Even when I thought I had broken through with bands like Pulp and maybe Portus Head.
你明白吗？
You know?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
那是摩德复兴风潮。
It's that mod revival.
是啊。
Yeah.
当时我确实没理解。
I didn't I didn't understand it at the time.
嗯。
Mhmm.
后来我懂了。
I did later.
对。
Yeah.
还有这个乐队Suede，我们稍后会提到the auteurs，也很有the kinks的感觉。
And this band, Suede, and we'll get to the auteurs, very kinks vibes too.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它正在复兴那种，怎么说呢，花花公子的穿衣风格。
Where it it is bringing back the sort of, like, who the dandy, like, dress.
我看了很多Suede的MV，印花衬衫，都露着肚脐。
I watched many of the suede videos, flowery shirts, all mid riff.
没错。
Yep.
《Well respected men》，那些时尚的忠实追随者
Well respected men, the dedicated followers of
时尚。
fashion.
确实如此。
Exactly.
想象一下，我们刚刚讨论了Alice in Chains乐队。
Imagine imagine we just talked about Alice in Chains.
想象一下这支乐队为Alice in Chains暖场。
Imagine this band opening for Alice in Chains.
就是，怎么说呢
Like, it's just
想象一下Layne Staley穿着一套时髦的小套装。
Imagine Layne Staley wearing a wearing a snappy little little outfit.
就是，对。
It's just yeah.
我不知道。
I don't know.
嗯，这个
Well, the
这种并置对我来说很有趣。
juxtaposition is is interesting to me.
确实。
It is.
两件不同的事物，两种不同的运动，几乎发生在同一时期。
Two different things two different movements relatively the same time.
截然不同。
Completely different.
布什桥
Did Bushbridge
然后我们会和新浪潮与美国吉他手讨论巡演的事宜。
And then we'll we'll talk about the tours discuss it with New Wave and American Guitarists.
完全被搞糊涂了，这东西居然存在，而我竟然没被要求听过或了解过。
Absolutely thrown for a loop that that that this exists, and I wasn't I wasn't made I wasn't made to listen to it and be aware.
就像，我...我也感觉有点，老兄。
Like, I I feel I I also feel kinda like, man.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们有
We have
一个朋友
a friend
可以怪罪。
we can blame.
那个。
That.
不。
No.
我认为我们没有可以责怪的人。
I don't think we have anybody to blame.
不。
No.
我们拥有彼此。
We have ourselves.
相信我们自己。
Believe it ourselves.
难道我们就没有同龄的英国潮人朋友吗？
Do we not have any hip British friends of our age?
本该好好宣传展示我们的。
It should have should have been hyping us displayed.
我很确定玛吉·希尔喜欢这个乐队，只是我没跟着她走那条路。
I'm fairly certain Maggie Hill was into this band, I just didn't follow her down that path.
很可能我听过，然后觉得——哦，这不是史密斯乐队。
It's very possible that I listened to it, and I and I thought, oh, this isn't the Smiths.
然后我就直接忽略了。
And then I just dismissed it.
我还想'忽略'？
And I thought Dismissed?
史密斯乐队那个？
Smiths that?
把它忽略了。
Dismissed it.
我觉得制作水平太棒了。
I thought the production was incredible.
不过我没特意去查制作人是谁。
I didn't take the time to look up who produced it, though.
他叫埃德·布勒。
His name is Ed Buller.
是的。
Yeah.
这位埃德·布勒还做过什么？
What else has he Ed Buller done?
有人知道吗
Anybody
他做过低俗小说类作品。
He's done pulp.
哦。
Oh.
还有雨衣和宫廷服饰。
And the raincoats and the courtineers.
雨衣。
Raincoats.
对。
Yeah.
后来他作为键盘手加入了迷幻毛皮乐队，跟着巡演了好几年。
So, yeah, he he joined Psychedelic Fur Furs as a keyboard player, toured with them for several years.
真酷啊，老兄。
That's cool, dude.
没错。
Yep.
不过，是的，他确实出过几张麂皮乐队的专辑。
But, yeah, the he did a suede albums.
我在试着找那些他制作的专辑，比如《His and Hers》、《Slow Dive》，然后接下来是《Suede》，对。
I'm trying to find the he did His and Hers, Slow Dive, and then he did Suede coming up and yeah.
这个这个就是他的，这绝对就是他的家。
This this is his this is his home for sure.
我感觉录音效果有点，怎么说呢，像是回声太多，声音有点单薄之类的。
I felt like it was a little, I don't know, like, echoey, little thin or something on on this recording.
吉他声被稍微往后推了一点，听起来不够有力量，但这就是The Smiths的风格。
It just has the guitars are set back a little bit, and it wasn't very powerful, but that's the way that the Smiths were.
所以我没发现有什么，你知道的，特别不一样的地方。
So I didn't find anything, you know, different, like, about it.
我只是
I just
那是当时的潮流。
It was the fashion at the time.
是啊。
Yeah.
我正想说，这有点让我回想起早期的录音作品。
I was gonna say it it hearkened back a little bit, I think, to earlier recordings.
对。
Yeah.
带点复古的感觉。
It has a little retro.
干净、清脆的单线圈拾音器音色。
Clean, jangling, single coil pickup sound.
是啊。
Yeah.
懂吗？
You know?
我们最近一直在听垃圾摇滚，说着说着就容易陷入设备讨论的危险。
And we've been we've we've recently been listening to grunge with with with the danger of getting into gear talk.
更像是那种厚重双线圈拾音器的嗡嗡声。
It's just more way more of just like a like a crunchy humbuckery Mhmm.
音色。
Sound.
明白吗？
You know?
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我认为这确实也影响了很多年轻艺术家，特别是在这个时期，二手设备起了很大作用。
And I think that's that's really what dictates a lot of younger artists too, especially around, you know, this time is is those second hand things.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
就像那种地方
Where it's like
因为它们全都被拖上来了
because they're all they're all dragged up.
是啊
Yeah.
我是说，你 这就是
I mean, you That's what
我有
I have.
你去当铺时没多少钱，只能买二三十年前流行的东西
You go to the pawn shop and you don't have very much money and, you know, whatever was popular twenty, thirty years ago is what you're gonna be picking up then.
普通人
Common people.
你知道，B.B.King曾说过——我在这里转述一下
You know, b b b king once said I'm paraphrasing here.
他说一把吉他如果不曾在当铺墙上挂过，就弹不出布鲁斯
He said a guitar can't play the blues unless it's spent some time hanging on a pawn trap wall.
我一直很喜欢这句话
And I've always liked that quote.
充满个性的当铺吉他，给予它们关爱
Character filled pawnshop guitars and bringing them giving them the love.
懂吗？
You know?
这听起来像是某个特权阶层的人，比如BB King会说的话。
That sounds like some like something somebody like a privileged person like BB King would say.
哦，天啊。
Oh, god.
不过还是要检查一下后面的内容。
Always check those next though.
别买一艘破船。
Don't buy a broken a boat broken.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
是的。
Yes.
别买变质的啤酒。
Don't buy broken beer.
句号。
Full stop.
安德森强调过这些歌曲并非自传性质，而是基于真实情感或现实情境想象出来的极端场景。
Anderson has had stressed that the songs are not autobiographical, but often imaginary situations based on real sentiments or real situations taken to their logical extreme.
当被问及歌词中频繁使用'他'这个词时，安德森表示：'太多音乐都在表达直白的性取向。'
When asked about the persuasive use of the word he in his songs, Anderson stated that, quote, too much music is about a very straightforward sense of sexuality.
只有扭曲的性取向才能引起我的兴趣。
Twisted sexuality is the only kind that interests me.
音乐界真正重要的人物从不声明自己的性取向。
The people that matter in the music don't declare their sexuality.
莫里西从未有过，而这正是他更有趣的地方。
Morrissey never has, and he is all the more interesting for that.
你知道是谁介绍他们认识这张专辑的新鼓手吗？
Did you see who introduced them to their new drummer for this record?
这在我的测验里。
That's in my quiz.
你现在想参加测验吗？
Would you like to take the quiz now?
我很乐意参加测验。
I would love to take the quiz.
我愿意
I would
想参加500分的测验。
like to take the quiz for 500 points.
好的。
Okay.
1990年6月，斯威德通过哪位如今著名的喜剧演员找到了固定鼓手西蒙·吉尔伯特？
In June 1990, Swayde found a permanent drummer, Simon Gilbert, through what now famous comedian?
是瑞奇·热维斯吗？
Is it Ricky Gervais?
正是瑞奇·热维斯，他最初在音乐行业工作并管理乐队，后来才转向喜剧。
It's Ricky Gervais, who initially worked in the music industry and managed the band before turning to comedy.
真的吗？
Really?
老兄，我提到过瑞奇·热维斯当你的经理。
Man, I mentioned Ricky Gervais being your manager.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
他是不是说了'我找到了你们的新鼓手'，然后他就这么加入了？
Did he I found your new drummer, and he came into that.
我们就...
We're like
好吧。
Alright.
第二个问题。
Question two.
山羊皮乐队在首张专辑发行前的一年里主导了音乐媒体，登上了多少本杂志的封面？
The year leading up to the release of Suede saw the group dominate the music press appearing on how many magazine covers?
展开剩余字幕（还有 392 条）
是六本、十一本还是十九本？
Is it six, eleven, or nineteen?
十九本。
Nineteen.
19本。
19.
哇。
Wow.
一支前所未见的乐队，从未发行过专辑。
An unprecedented a band who had never released an album.
他们为什么不呢？
Why wouldn't they?
他们是在俱乐部演出时让人们为之疯狂吗？
Were they playing clubs and people were freaking
对此的反应？
out about it?
关于为什么会有这么多炒作？
On on why there's so much hype?
是的。
Yes.
这只是人为制造的炒作还是正当的追捧？
Was it just a manufactured hype or were was it like rightful hype?
不是。
No.
他们发行过单曲，但也在俱乐部演出，做着自己的事。
They had released the singles, but it was also playing the clubs, doing doing the thing.
就像我们之前见过的那样，比如The Strokes乐队，这是一场完整的运动。
And it just like happened we've seen it before with bands like The Strokes or, you know, it was a whole movement.
基本上，他们被认为是激发那场运动的英伦摇滚乐队。
I mean, essentially, they are credited as being like the Britpop band that, you know, kind of inspired that movement.
所以我认为那只是当时的时代精神。
So I think there was just the zeitgeist at the time.
所有人的目光都聚焦在这一件事上。
Everyone was looking at this one thing.
音乐媒体的记者们看到他们后，宣称这就是英国音乐的新面孔。
And people in the music press were seeing them and declaring them this is the new face of, you know, British music.
他们中任何人的父亲有参与英国
Were any of their fathers involved in the British
媒体或唱片行业吗？
press or record?
感觉The Strokes乐队虽然我很喜欢他们，但他们似乎有点先天优势。
Would feel like the the strokes had although I like the strokes, feel like they had a bit of a leg up.
他们确实有点先天优势。
They had a bit of a leg up.
我不是这个意思。
I didn't mean.
你说得对。
You're right.
好的。
Alright.
第三个问题。
Third question.
随着新摇滚乐队的涌现，英国流行文化正经历一场转型，转向何种文化形态？这是对记者肖恩·奥哈根1993年在《Arena》杂志提出的'新男性'概念的回应。
As new rock bands were arriving on the scene, British pop culture was in the midst of a shift towards what type of culture as a response to the then popular concept of the quote new man by journalist Sean O'Hagan in 1993 article in the magazine Arena.
都市美型男。
Metrosexual.
接近了。
Close.
哦，是吗？
Oh, yeah?
嗯，其实不是。
Well, not really.
哦。
Oh.
实际上恰恰相反。
The opposite of that actually.
什么类型的文化？
What type of culture?
是某种文化。
It's something culture.
这是对流行概念'反文化'的否定吗？
It's a rejection of the popular concept of Counter culture?
是反文化吗？
Is it counter culture?
不是。
No.
这是'小伙子文化'，
It's lad lad culture,
我们'小伙子文化'。
which we Lad culture.
哪个
Which
我们后来其实称之为兄弟文化
we called later bro culture, actually.
真的吗？
Really?
他们当时在拥抱
They were embracing
不
No.
那是
That was
你说的是兄弟（bro）还是破产（broke）？
You say bro or broke?
兄弟
Bro.
兄弟
Bro.
兄弟
Bro.
那是对像山羊皮乐队和果酱乐队这类乐队的新摇滚乐队的反应，我来读一下这个
That was the new rock bands as a reaction to bands like Suede and Pulp who were I'll I'll just read this.
这是九十年代到两千年代初由媒体推动的英国和爱尔兰亚文化现象
It was a media driven principle British and Irish subculture of the nineties, early two thousands.
如今仍用'小伙子文化'一词来指代年轻异性恋男性，尤其是大学生群体中粗鲁或厌女的集体行为。
The term lad culture continues to be used today to refer to collective boorish or misogynistic behavior by young heterosexual men, particularly university students.
所以就像绿洲乐队那种亚文化？
So the subculture in Like oasis?
异性恋年轻男性采取反智立场，排斥文化纯粹主义与敏感细腻，崇尚饮酒、运动和性别歧视。
Heterosexual young men assuming an anti intellectual position, shunning cultural purists and sensitivity in favor of drinking sport and sex and sexism.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我昨晚做了个梦。
I had a dream last night.
我做了个噩梦，梦见自己莫名其妙被困在了英格兰。
I had a stress dream that I was, like, somehow, like, trapped in England.
就是，我本来只是去那里旅游的。
Like, I I like, I went there to visit.
这是昨晚的事。
This is last night.
但后来我在酒吧和几个家伙聊天，他们突然砸碎啤酒瓶想戳我的眼睛。
But then I I I started talking to these blokes in the pub, and they, like, smashed their beer bottles and tried to twist them in my eye.
就是这样。
There you go.
典型的小伙子文化。
Lad culture.
这就是
There
你先请。
you go.
我我我是在半开玩笑，但说真的，绿洲乐队算是男孩乐队吗？
I I I was half joking, but seriously, is is Oasis a a lad band?
我认为这与后来才加入的粉丝群体关系更大。
I think it has to do more with the fans that were arriving later on the scene.
所以如果你看过果浆乐队的表演，你可能会想，这些花花公子在搞什么名堂？
So if you saw Pulp and you're like, what are these dandies doing?
我拒绝接受莫里西性取向模糊这种说法，这更像是某种——
I am rejecting the idea of the ambiguity of, like, Morrissey's sexuality, and it's sort of like a a
我是说，确实。
I mean, yeah.
一种变体。
A deviation of that.
就像是，
Like, it's
对。
Yeah.
去看场足球赛然后打一架。
Go see a football match and get in a fight.
那些纨绔子弟对此怎么看？
Where are the fops on this?
纨绔子弟们在哪？
Where are the fops?
那些花花公子在哪？
Where are the fops?
伯奇，那些花花公子在哪？
Birch, where are the fops?
我们就是。
We are.
被影响了。
Swayed.
那个被影响的人就是他。
The the Swayed is the guy.
我们就是那些花花公子。
We're the fops.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们是那些优雅花花公子的天鹅绒触感。
We are the Velveteen touch of a dandy fop.
那些那些那些伦敦的优雅男孩们就是花花公子。
The the the the the dandy London boys are are the fops.
我是说，我希望如此因为
I mean, I would hope so because
我自始至终都是个花花公子。
I was a fop all the loom.
粗鲁的，我的厌女行为。
Boorish, mon misogynistic behavior.
我希望你们不喜欢粗俗的行为。
I hope you guys aren't into boorish.
等等。
Wait.
粗俗。
Boorish.
当然。
Sure.
我是否
Do I
除了在厌女症和花花公子之间选择，我还有第三个选项吗？
have a do I have a third option other than do I do I just have to choose between misogynistic or fop?
比如说
Like
我只是喜欢派对。
I just like to party.
我控制不住。
I can't help it.
我是被带坏的。
I was dragged up.
好吧。
Alright.
抱歉。
Sorry.
一个话题。
A topic.
不太好，现在你让我谈这个话题。
Not well, not now you have me on the topic.
比如，那时候小伙子们都在听什么？
Like, what what were the lads listening to then?
比如，1993年的小伙子音乐是什么？
Like, what is lad music in 1993?
绿洲乐队。
Oasis.
我是说，就是。
I mean, is.
那是杜兰杜兰乐队。
That's Duran Duran.
他们...绿洲乐队就像是曼彻斯特对伦敦英伦摇滚的回应。
They they Oasis was like the the Manchester response to the London Britpop.
这太他妈奇怪了。
That's so fucking weird.
所以我...也许是因为...也许是口音的问题。
So I and maybe it's maybe it's because the maybe it's the accent.
也许是口音的原因。
Maybe it's the accent.
我不知道。
I don't know.
就是，我能想到的唯一事情，就是美国新金属的崛起，那简直是对上帝的亵渎。
Like, the only thing that I can think of, like, is is the fucking, like, arise of, like, new metal stateside, which was, like, the repudiation of god.
如果我们到了那种地步，这些描述都成了英伦摇滚，老兄
If if we get to a point where they're like, these descriptions are Britpop, lad
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
兄弟。
Bro.
小伙摇滚。
Lad rock.
我
I'm
小伙文化。
Lad culture.
我快疯了。
I'm losing my mind.
太诡异了。
That's so weird.
我打开浏览器，直接输入了‘小伙文化乐队’，但之前搜索的图片结果还保留着。
I went into a browser, and I just typed in lad culture bands, but I was on an image search from my previous search.
我输入‘小伙文化乐队’，结果现在满屏都是绿洲乐队的照片。
I typed in lad culture bands, and I'm just looking at a whole page of just pictures of Oasis right now.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
行吧。
Alright.
给你。
There you go.
那就脱掉西装，换上运动服。
So take off the suit, put on the tracksuit.
然后你就是个小伙子了。
And then you're a lad.
嗯，是啊。
Well, yeah.
英国老爸们，给我们讲讲小伙文化吧。
British dads, tell us about lad culture.
是啊。
Yeah.
其实我并不想听小伙文化的事。
I actually don't wanna hear about lad culture.
嗯。
Yeah.
听起来糟透了。
Sounds terrible.
我们的收件箱已经塞满了各种刻薄的言论，全是反弹的声浪。
Our inbox is already full of Just mean, clapped in backlash backlash.
是啊。
Yeah.
想象一下鲍伊那个年代引发的反弹吧，人们对他公开承认双性恋身份感到多么困惑不解。
Just imagine the backlash that happened when Bowie was around and how people were so mystified that he could say he was bisexual.
等等。
Wait.
当时具体是什么反弹？
What was the backlash?
T Rex和Slade乐队那个时期吗？
T Rex and Slade?
就是，我不太明白。
Like, I I don't understand.
好吧。
Okay.
总之
Anyway
抱歉。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
嗯。
Yeah.
我只是觉得这很迷人。
I just wanna I thought it was fascinating.
不。
No.
那确实非常迷人。
That that is that is very fascinating.
这真让我措手不及。
That just threw me for a loop.
是啊。
Yeah.
我不知怎么做到的
I somehow did
我成功了。
I did it.
谢谢。
Thank you.
是你对我这么做的。
You did it to me.
现在我是那个傻瓜了。
Now I'm the fools.
不过我还是很佩服的。
I was very impressed though.
19个封面。
19 covers.
封面。
Covers.
不止是杂志上的。
Not just in the magazine.
19个封面。
19 covers.
太疯狂了。
That's insane.
在他们还没出专辑之前就有了。
Before they ever had an album.
哇。
Wow.
那是我的。
That's mine.
山羊皮乐队发行时，直接空降英国排行榜榜首，成为自弗兰基去好莱坞以来销售最快的首张专辑。
Suede, when they release, it opened top of The UK charts becoming the fastest selling debut album since Frankie goes to Hollywood.
欢迎来到极乐殿堂。
Welcome to the Pleasure Dome.
差不多十年前，这张专辑仅凭预售就获得了金唱片认证，在发行第二天上午10点就达到了金唱片销量。
Almost ten years earlier, the album qualified for a gold disc on advance orders alone going gold at 10AM, the second day of release.
那可是英国金唱片，标准有点不同。
Now that's UK gold, which is a little bit different.
它的销量几乎是其最接近的竞争对手——迪佩什·莫德的《信仰与奉献之歌》的四倍。
It outsold its nearest rival, Dipesh Mode's song of faith and devotion by a march of nearly four to one.
哇。
Wow.
这是个新乐队，对阵Dipesh Mode。
That's a new band up against Dipesh Mode.
太疯狂了。
That's insane.
确实不负众望。
So It lives up.
相当不错。
Pretty good.
相当不错的首秀。
Pretty good debut.
是啊。
Yeah.
首秀太惊艳了。
Hell of a debut.
这是我们最后一次听到这个乐队的消息了吗？
So is this the last we hear from this band?
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
太棒了。
Excellent.
因为我听了这张专辑之后的一首单曲，简直太棒了。
Because I heard a single from the record after this, and it was awesome.
Dog Manstar。
Dog Manstar.
全是赞誉之词。
Just accolades.
美国《Alternative Press》杂志，85到95年间最佳99张专辑。
Alternative Press US, top 99 of 85 to 95.
这张排名第94位。
This came in at 94.
英国《Attitude》杂志，史上50张最佳同志专辑。
Attitude UK, top 50 gay albums of all time.
这张排名第27位。
This came in at 27.
英国《You Enemies》杂志，史上最伟大的100张英国专辑。
You Enemies UK, 100 greatest British albums ever.
这张排名第30位。
This came in at 30.
美国《Pitchfork》杂志，2017年评选。
Pitchfork US, twenty seventeen.
50张最佳英伦摇滚专辑。
50 best Britpop albums.
这张排名第13位。
This came in at 13.
本该有的。
Should have.
英伦摇滚专辑。
Britpop albums.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
Q杂志评选的Q时代最佳250张专辑中排名116。
Q's 250 best of Q's lifetime, 116.
我...我不知道。
I I don't know.
但据我所读到的所有资料，后续专辑实际上比这张更好。
But apparently, the everything I've read, the follow-up record is actually better than this.
所以我真的很期待去听听看。
So I I really forward to checking it out.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且显然也更做作。
Also more pretentious apparently.
太酷了。
So Cool.
让我们一探究竟。
Let's find out.
放马过来。
Bring it.
放马过来。
Bring it.
我完全赞成。
I'm all for it.
谁在装腔作势？
Who's pretentious we are?
还是下一张专辑？
Or the next album?
下一张专辑。
The next album.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
确实是那样。
That was yeah.
反响非常两极。
It was very mixed.
它能凝聚人心。
It stirs unite.
这得由我来判断。
I'll be the judge of that.
是啊。
Yeah.
我只想让那种矫情像蜂蜜一样从云端滴落在我身上。
I just want that pretension to drip down on me like honey from a cloud.
没错。
Yeah.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我们正在听《安眠药》这首歌，
We're listening to Sleeping Pills right now and
太棒了。
Hell, yeah.
确实如此。
We are.
那边现在有很多果肉。
That is a lot of pulp going on right there.
简直是口腔的极致享受。
It's just oral bliss.
对啊。
Yeah.
太神奇了。
It's amazing.
Pulp乐队是哪一年出道的？
And what what year is was Pulp's debut?
Pulp成立于78年。
Pulp started in '78.
是啊。
Yeah.
哦。
Oh.
咔嚓。
Snap.
他们有个我记得
They had a I think
他们是86年。
they were '86.
不对。
No.
乐队是78年成立的。
They're '78 is when the band started.
他们那时候出的专辑
Their the album that came out around this time
《他的和她的》。
His and Hers.
92年还有一张更早的专辑火了。
There was one before it that hit in '92.
别担心。
Don't worry.
我们很快就能找到蒂姆。
We'll get Tim soon.
分离。
Separations.
那一首融合了合成流行、智能舞曲、另类摇滚、酸性浩室、英伦摇滚、实验音乐、独立流行和民谣风格。
And that one was synth pop, IDM, alternative rock, acid house, Britpop, experimental, indie pop, and folk.
嗯。
Mhmm.
评价不是很好。
Didn't get the best reviews.
但是，呃，我不知道具体哪里，就是当你提到那种类似Pulp乐队的相似点时，我后背有点发凉的感觉。
But, yeah, I don't know where the like, it's it's when you brought up, like, the the pulp similarities, I would like, my back went up a little bit.
就像是，但这个乐队89年才成立啊。
It's like, but this band only started in '89.
然后你知道，我当时就想，Pulp在这之前已经在做其他风格了，突然间就发生了这么大的转变。
And then, you know, I was like, well, pulp was doing other stuff before this happened, and then all of a sudden, that was a a pretty pretty pretty big switch.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，
Well,
我觉得他们当时也在跟随整个潮流趋势。
I They think were also following that entire trend.
就是这个。
Here's the yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
我很高兴你提到这个。
That's I'm glad you're bringing this up.
因为我认为，像Pulp这样的乐队已经坚持做这件事足够久了。
Because what happened, I think, to a band like Pulp is they had been doing the thing for long enough.
山羊皮是新乐队，它带动了周围其他做同样音乐的乐队。
Suede was the new band and it like just propelled other bands around them that were doing the same thing.
对吧？
Right?
所以山羊皮一出现，就像涅槃效应一样。
So as soon as Suede hits, it's like the Nirvana effect.
对吧？
Right?
哦，西雅图还有哪些乐队在做摇滚垃圾乐呢？
Oh, what's what other bands from Seattle are doing the, you know, rock and roll grunge thing?
水涨船高。
Rising tide lifts all boats.
正是。
Exactly.
所以山羊皮，你知道，他们被誉为第一支英伦摇滚乐队。
So Suede, you know, they they were they have the label of being, like, the first Britpop band.
当然，他们不是。
Of course, they're not.
就像，你可以回溯到'哦，不'那种感觉。
Like, you can go back like Oh, no.
再往前几十年，人们会说'哦，这是英伦摇滚之类的'。
Decades before that to say, oh, this is Britpop or whatever.
但他们才是真正的英伦摇滚代表。
But they're the one that were Britpop.
是他们在九十年代创造了这种风潮。
That created this this thing in the nineties.
当然，绿洲乐队后来将其推向了巅峰，但你可以明显看出人们会指着这张专辑说'这就是一切的起点'。
And of course, Oasis just expanded like that into the stratosphere, but, you know, this obviously is is a very I I could see people pointing to this particular one saying that that's where it kinda started out like this.
不过与此同时，确实很棒。
But at the same time, yeah, wonderful.
我是说，我喜欢史密斯乐队。
I mean, I like the Smiths.
我喜欢迷幻皮草乐队。
I like the psychedelic furs.
把这些玩意儿全扔进搅拌机然后直接灌进我耳朵里吧，老兄。
Fucking throw that shit into a blender and pour it directly in my ears, man.
也有回声兔人的影子。
Echoing the bunnyman too.
我有
I got
我感受到的氛围，
vibes which I,
你知道的，在做这个项目的过程中逐渐喜欢上了这种感觉。
you know, have come to like from this doing the project.
比如那些聪明的、和弦变化之类的东西。
Like, smart, like, chord changes and stuff too.
它超越了那些基础的、像ABABCAB这样，你知道的，流行音乐的模式。
Like, it it it surpasses your basic, like, a b, a b c, a b, like, you know, pop format.
这不正是定义英伦摇滚的特点吗？
It's Isn't that what, you know, kind of defines the Britpop though?
老实说，我从来都没真正搞明白过。
I honestly, I I never never really knew.
听到时我能认出来，但不知道为什么。
I I knew it when I heard it, but I didn't didn't know why.
你一听就能明白。
You know when you hear it.
确实如此。
Exactly.
是啊。
Yeah.
罗伯和我十几岁时一起看过《猜火车》。
Rob and I saw Trainspotting together when we were teenagers.
没错。
That's right.
这就像最高法院对色情内容的判定标准一样。
It's like the the supreme court on pornography.
没错。
Yep.
当我看到那个音符时就被击中了。
Getting hit by that note when I see it.
你知道当你
You know when you
听到它的时候。
hear it.
我一看到就知道。
I know when I see it.
是啊。
Yeah.
这张专辑曾登上英国专辑排行榜榜首，首周销量超过10万张。
Album did chart number one UK album charts selling more than a 100,000 copies for first week.
在排行榜前40名停留了十一周。
Spent eleven weeks top 40.
它有没有在美国上榜过？
Did it ever, like, chart at US?
美国
The US
在美国，最高排名是美国潜力新人专辑榜第14位。
in The US, the the highest chart was 14 on US heat seekers album charts.
所以不是常规的图表。
So not the regular charts.
这不是真正的图表。
It's not a real chart.
这不是真正的图表。
It's not a real chart.
是啊。
Yeah.
我不记得有音乐视频或类似的东西曾在MTV上出现过。
I I don't remember a music video or anything, like, ever popping up on MTV.
我看到大概有三四个
I saw there were, like, three, four
有些视频真的很棒。
There's really good videos.
没错。
Yeah.
还有《Weird》。
And Weird.
它们非常具有九十年代风格。
They're very nineties.
我不知道该不该说
I I don't know if I'd call
这个验证通过。
them That checks.
好的。
Good.
大量使用广角镜头和饱和色彩
A lot of wide angled lenses and saturated colors
还有饱和的绿色，是的。
and Saturated green and yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
快速运动。
Fast motion.
你知道，他们赢得了第二届水星奖，这在当时可是件大事。
They were the, you know, the second annual Mercury Prize they did win, which is is more of a thing at this time.
所以水星奖在英国相当有声望。
So Mercury Prize, pretty pretty esteemed in Britain.
酷。
Cool.
实际上前一年获奖的是原始尖叫乐队。
So the year before was actually Primal Scream.
真的假的。
No shit.
尖叫美味。
Screamed delic.
哇。
Wow.
迷幻尖叫。
Screamedelica.
那是在1992年。
That was in 1992.
那是他们第一次举办的那一年，然后在1993年是斯韦恩。
That was the first year they did it, and then in 1993 was Swayne.
酷。
Cool.
水星奖的评选标准是什么？
What are the what are the parameters for Mercury Prize?
就是他们当年最喜欢的专辑吗？
Is it just, like, their favorite album that year?
是的。
Yeah.
英国或爱尔兰艺人发行的最佳专辑。
Best album release in The United King United Kingdom by a British or Irish act.
好的。
Okay.
嗯。
Yep.
告诉我克里斯·高是怎么想的。
Tell me what Christ Gow thought.
克里斯·高认为。
Christ Gow thought.
成败关键就在于当布雷特·安德森用酒意轻吟时，安眠药是否见效。
Make or break is sleeping pills when Brett Anderson draws wine's croons.
你是水象星座，而非风象星座。
You're a water sign, not an air sign.
如此悦耳又重复、纠缠不休，让你不禁发誓他说过'我是个混蛋'这样的话。
So tunefully repetitive, nagging, inescapable that you swear he said I'm an asshole.
尽管他发音'风象星座'时，比后面那句关于音量的歌词要清晰得多。
Even though he pronounces air sign a lot more clearly than the line about volume that follows.
对于不相信马克·波兰就是查克·贝里的人来说，这简直就像指甲划过黑板般刺耳，起初我完全无法忍受。
It's fingernails on the chalkboard city for anyone who doesn't believe Mark Bolan is Chuck Berry, and at first I couldn't stand it.
如今这却成了这张被过度炒作却又意外精良的出道专辑中，我最爱的瞬间。
Now it's a fave moment on this appropriately overhyped, surprisingly well crafted coming out.
比史密斯乐队同期作品更具流行智慧和文学性，'山羊皮'乐队的集体性别颠覆计划投射出一种悲哀。
More pop wise and also more literary than the Smiths at a comparable stage, Suedes Collective Gender Fuck projects a sorry.
卡拉德的'山羊皮集体性别颠覆计划'展现出如此摇滚的欢愉反抗，彻底消解了关于字面真实性的所有琐碎质疑。
Kallade's Suedes Collective Gender Fuck projects a joyful defiance so rock and roll it obliterates all niggles about literal truth.
如果你认为他们战胜抑郁的胜利与你无关，那就庆幸自己只需从前线报道中了解就好。
If you think their victories over depression have nothing to do with you, be grateful you can make do with a report from the front.
A减。
A minus.
不错。
Nice.
他发音的方式确实非常特别。
He does pronounce things in a very particular way.
他对发音非常讲究，我觉得这很有意思。
He's very aware of the pronunciation of things, which I find really interesting.
而且你知道，这也是莫里西一直以来的风格，嗯哼。
And that's something that, you know, Morrissey always did too is Mhmm.
就是把常见词汇巧妙地扭曲成不同的表达方式。
Is like twisting words that are common words into a different sort of phrase.
所以既顽皮又聪明。
So very cheeky, very clever.
顽皮。
Cheeky.
没错。
Yep.
更准确说是才华横溢。
Brilliant more like it.
是啊。
Yeah.
这太棒了。
This is great.
对。
Yeah.
超棒的唱片。
Great record.
完全正面评价。
Total positive.
全是积极的？
Total positive?
完全就是乐趣。
Total total fun.
我喜欢做这个播客的原因之一，就是发现这张唱片真是太棒了。
One of the reasons why I like doing this podcast, discovering this record was great.
没错。
Yep.
是啊。
Yeah.
绝对是的。
Absolutely.
和朋友们讨论它。
Talking about it with my friends.
所以，是的，我们会重新聊聊山羊皮乐队。
So, yeah, we'll be revisiting Suede.
酷。
Cool.
不错。
Nice.
还有1994年的《狗人》
And 1994 with Dog Man
明星。
Star.
明年见，Suede。
See you next year, Suede.
Dog Man？
Dog Man?
那不是基努·里维斯弹贝斯的乐队吗？
Wasn't that the band that Keanu Reeve played Bates
那是Dogstar。
That's Dogstar.
Dogstar。
Dogstar.
你刚才说什么？
What did you say?
Dogstar。
Dogstar.
Dogman star。
Dogman star.
非常接近了。
Very close.
不好意思。
Excuse me.
嗯。
Yeah.
请自便。
Pardon yourself.
好的。
Alright.
下次我们将讨论保罗·韦勒的《野林》。
Next time, we'll be talking about Paul Weller, Wildwood.
好的。
Alright.
谢谢大家。
Thanks, y'all.
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