2025年7月20日：梵蒂冈的孤儿们，每位学生的专属导师，梅斯卡尔酒酿造者

在Designer Shoe Warehouse，我们相信鞋子是生活中一切的重要组成部分。

At Designer Shoe Warehouse, we believe that shoes are an important part of, well, everything.

从蹒跚学步到初次约会，从通宵达旦到突破个人最佳纪录。

First steps to first dates, from all nighters to all time personal best.

从搭建枕头堡垒到构筑人生。

From building pillow forts to building a life.

为你世界中所有大大小小的时刻，

For all the big and small moments that make up your whole world,

DSW始终相伴。

DSW is there.

我们备有各类鞋款。在DSW门店或dsw.com，以令人艳羡的价格选购你钟爱品牌的鞋子，满足每一个不同的你。

And we've got just the shoes. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love at brag worthy prices at your DSW store or dsw.com.

嗨，我是克里斯汀·贝尔。如果你认识我丈夫阿克塞尔，就知道他酷爱买车。但卖车？那可不太情愿。

Hi. I'm Kristen Bell. And if you know my husband, Ax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car? Not so much.

我们真的要这么做了。

We're really doing this.

幸好Carvana让这一切变得简单。回答几个问题，输入车辆识别号或车牌号，搞定。今早我们只用几分钟就卖掉了车，他们下午就会来取车付款。

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your VIN or license, and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning, and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.

再见啦，小卡车。

Goodbye, truckie.

当然，我们保留了最受欢迎的那个。

Of course, we kept the favorite.

你好啊，另一位卡车司机。

Hello, other truckie.

今天就通过Carvana出售您的爱车。适用条款与条件。

Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply.

玛丽·罗拉多在俄亥俄州长大，一直渴望拥有一个大家庭，却发现自己竟

Mary Rolato grew up in Ohio longing for a large family, only to find out that she had

有一个。在

one. In

意大利，她历经多年才敢向生母提出那个最痛苦的问题——为何当初要抛弃她？

Italy, it was years before she could ask her birth mother the most painful question of all, why was she given away?

教会让她相信这是对她最好的安排。所以他们非但没有帮她，反而靠贩卖婴儿牟利。问我是否怨恨教会？当然恨之入骨。

The church convinced her that it was the best thing for her. So instead of helping her, it was better for them to make money selling babies. So am I angry at the church? Hell yeah.

我们正在为《60分钟》节目准备演示，向人们展示Chat的语音视觉模式能实现什么。

We're preparing a demo for sixty minutes to show people what Chat can do with voice mode with vision.

我们将向您展示一项技术革新，有朝一日可能改变全美每所学校每个孩子的教育方式。

We're about to show you a technological innovation that could one day change the way every child in every school in America is taught.

位置分毫不差，大脑就在头部。至于形状嘛，算是个好的开始。别用这种居高临下的口气跟我说话。

The location is spot on. The brain is right there in the head. As for the shape, it's a good start. Don't patronize me.

这是一款由人工智能驱动的在线辅导工具

It's an online tutor powered by artificial intelligence

你可以提出后续问题

You can ask a follow-up question.

旨在帮助教师提高效率，让学生学得更有效

Designed to help teachers be more efficient and students learn more effectively.

干得好，凯拉

Good work, Kayla.

手工梅斯卡尔酒抗拒机械化。龙舌兰需在地下坑洞烘烤数日，然后用马拉石磨碾碎，麦芽浆在木桶中发酵，最后在铜制蒸馏器中双重蒸馏。全程没有温度调节装置

Artisanal mezcal resists machinery. The agave is roasted in underground pits for days. Then it's crushed by horse drawn mill. The mash is fermented in wooden barrels and distilled twice in copper vats. No temperature dials or controls.

气泡显示酒精含量

Bubbles indicate the alcohol content.

谁更了解这个制作过程？

Who knows more about the process?

我觉得他可能懂得更多，但我喝得更多

I think he may know more. But I drink it more.

我是莱斯利·斯塔尔

I'm Leslie Stahl.

我是比尔·惠特克。我是安德森·库珀

I'm Bill Whittaker. I'm Anderson Cooper.

我是莎伦·阿尔方西。

I'm Sharon Alfonci.

我是约翰·沃特海姆。

I'm John Wertheim.

我是塞西莉亚·维加。

I'm Cecilia Vega.

我是斯科特·佩利。以上是今晚《60分钟》的报道。

I'm Scott Pelly. Those stories tonight on sixty Minutes.

在这里，不仅有令人惊叹的景色，还有时间仿佛被拉长的奇妙感受。朋友间的欢笑更加洪亮，山顶的微风恰到好处。通过AllTrails，你可以探索并体验全球超过45万条最佳自然步道，导航功能触手可及。用AllTrails找到你的户外天地。立即下载免费应用，开启下一次户外冒险。

Out here, it's not only the amazing views, but the way time stretches out a little longer. How laughter bellows louder among friends, and how the breeze hits just right at the summit. With AllTrails, you can discover and experience the best of nature with over 450,000 trails worldwide and navigation right at your fingertips. Find your outside with AllTrails. Download the free app today and find your next outdoor adventure.

是否因不知从何下手而逃避未完成的家居项目？Thumbtack懂家居，所以你无需成为专家。分不清哑光漆和缎光漆的区别？或是搞不懂烘干机发出的咔嗒声？通过Thumbtack，你不必成为家居达人，只需雇佣专业人士即可。

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is? With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one.

你可以在应用内雇佣顶级评价的专业人士，查看价格预估并阅读评论。立即下载。

You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews, all on the app. Download today.

上世纪50年代，比利时天主教会将数千名新生儿与未婚母亲分离并安排收养，通常未经母亲同意。这些女性在家庭和强大教会的压力下被迫放弃孩子。去年秋天，教皇方济各为这些强制收养事件道歉。但比利时人并非唯一受害者。1950至1970年间，梵蒂冈以所谓'孤儿签证'将3500名意大利儿童送往美国。

During the 1950s, the Catholic church in Belgium separated thousands of newborns from their unwed mothers and put them up for adoption, often without the mother's consent. The women were shamed into surrendering their babies by their families and a powerful church. Last fall, Pope Francis apologized for those forced adoptions. But Belgians weren't the only victims. From 1950 to 1970, the Vatican sent 3,500 Italian children to America on something called an orphan visa.

问题在于大多数并非孤儿。和比利时的案例一样，他们同样是未婚母亲的孩子。许多母亲后来寻找孩子时，才发现他们已被送往大洋彼岸。正如我们去年首次报道的，成千上万的美国被收养者仍在努力拼凑他们失落的人生。那是他永生难忘的一天。

The trouble was most were not orphans. Like their Belgian counterparts, they too were the children of unwed mothers. Many mothers later went searching for their children only to discover they had been sent across an ocean. As we first reported last year, thousands of American adoptees are still struggling to piece together their lost lives. It was a day he'll never forget.

美国被收养者约翰·坎帕泰利28岁时与意大利生母重逢。他寻找母亲超过十年——这个据称抛弃了他的女人。

American adoptee John Campatelli was 28 years old when he was reunited with his Italian birth mother. He'd been searching for her for more than a decade, a mother he'd been told had abandoned him.

我妈妈说，你知道，二十八年过去了。我从未能为你庆祝生日烤一个蛋糕。她说，我不在乎现在是几月份。我要给你烤个蛋糕。我们需要庆祝，因为我们家的浪子终于回来了。

My mom said, you know, twenty eight years have gone by. I've never been able to bake a cake for you for your birthday. She says, I don't care what month it is. I'm gonna bake you a cake. We need to celebrate because our prodigal son has finally come home.

约翰·坎帕泰利1963年出生于意大利，原名皮耶罗·戴维。他的母亲弗朗西斯卡未婚生子，被家人逼迫放弃抚养权。他被送到一家天主教机构，那里专门收留未婚母亲的孩子。饱受排斥与羞辱的弗朗西斯卡将婴儿交给了修女。随即，她的名字从出生记录中被彻底抹去。

John Campatelli was born Piero Davi in 1963 in Italy. His mother, Francesca, was unmarried and forced by her family to give him up. He was sent to a Catholic run institution for the children of unwed mothers. Shunned and disgraced, Francesca handed her baby to the nuns. Immediately, her name was stripped from the birth records.

一纸文书，皮耶罗·戴维就成了孤儿。坎帕泰利向我们展示了改变他命运的教会文件。

With the stroke of a pen, Piero Davi became an orphan. Campatelli showed us the church documents that changed his life.

这上面写着，他们自出生起

It says here, they have been

就处于这种状态，下落不明。他们明明知道我母亲在哪。我是说，她交接我时出示过证件。所以这根本是赤裸裸的谎言。

in them since birth, and their whereabouts are unknown. They knew damn well where my mom was. I mean, she showed her documents when she handed me over. So this is an outright lie.

这个谎言困扰了约翰·坎帕泰利一生。一旦被宣布为孤儿，他就获得了被收养和美国签证的资格。他说母亲曾表示对此完全不知情。

A lie John Campatelli has spent his life unraveling. As soon as he was declared an orphan, he was eligible for adoption and a U. S. Visa. He says his mother told him she had no idea.

她始终打算回来接走他。

She had every intention of coming back for him.

她说：我从未在任何文件上签字同意放弃你。

She said, I never signed a paper anywhere saying that I was willing to give you up.

她以为把你送进机构只是临时安置？

She thought placing you in in the institution was was temporary?

她认为等生活稳定后，自己有权在将来某天接回我。

She thought that it would be her right to be able to get me back someday once she got her life together.

她从未签署过放弃你的文件？

She never signed you away?

没有。她说，我当时把你送走是因为家庭状况让我无法抚养你，但我从未同意过收养，也不同意你离开意大利、从此与我天各一方。

No. She said, I placed you because I couldn't keep you at that point in time because of the family situation, but I never consented to the adoption or to the fact that you would leave Italy and you'd be far from me for the rest of my life.

皮耶罗·达维是梵蒂冈将数千名非婚生子女重新包装成孤儿中的一员。教会协助办理签证，得益于1950年美国一项法律将孤儿定义扩展至包括单亲但无力抚养的孩子。借此漏洞，孤儿收养计划蓬勃发展。对皮耶罗的母亲和成千上万类似遭遇的女性而言，得知托付给教会的孩子失踪是毁灭性的打击。似乎许多母亲根本不知道她们的孩子被送到了美国。

Piero Davi was one of thousands of children born out of wedlock that the Vatican repackaged as orphans. The church arranged the visas, helped by a 1950 US law that broadened the definition of orphan to include a child with one parent but one who couldn't provide care. With that leeway, the orphan program boomed. For Piero's mother and thousands like her, it was devastating to learn the child she'd entrusted to the church had disappeared. It seems that many of these mothers had no idea that their children were being sent to The United States.

她们能采取什么行动吗？

Could they do anything about it?

不能，完全不可能。你不能把婴儿送到美国后，又告诉养父母生母想要回孩子。

No, absolutely not. You can't send a baby to The United States and then tell the adoptive parents that the birth mother wants the child.

作家玛丽亚·拉里诺在其著作《孩子的代价》中揭露了梵蒂冈的孤儿计划。她从纽约教会档案库的数百份文件中拼凑出真相。拉里诺告诉我们，该计划的关键在于生母需签署放弃孩子所有权的同意书。但拉里诺透露，有时医生或律师会在生母不知情的情况下代签。还有些人则是被蓄意误导。

Author Maria Larino uncovered the Vatican's orphan program in her book, The Price of Children. She pieced the story together from hundreds of documents in the church's own archives in New York. Larino told us the program hinged on a consent form the mothers were supposed to sign severing all rights to the child. But Lorino told us doctors or lawyers sometimes signed the consent without telling the mother. Others were deliberately misled.

有些女性被迫陷入这种处境，承受着放弃孩子的巨大压力。有些被欺骗签署了看不懂的文件。最恶劣的情况是，有些女性被告知孩子已经夭折。

There were women who were trapped into this situation and tremendous pressure to relinquish their children. There were women who were tricked, who signed forms they didn't understand. And in the worst cases, there were women who were told their child had died.

被告知孩子死了？是的。你怎么看待这种做法？

Told their child had died? Yes. What do you make of that?

这实在太...太可怕了。据我所知，当时的想法是：告诉生母孩子死亡比让她知道孩子被送养，在心理上更容易接受。

Yeah. It's so, it's so horrible. The thinking, I've been told, was that it was an easy easier psychological closure to tell a birth mother that her child had died than to let her know that her child had been given up for adoption.

所以教会代表告诉这些母亲她们的孩子已去世，而实际上孩子被送到了美国？是的。劳雷诺告诉我们更多女性曾被告知可以领回孩子。她在档案中发现了心碎母亲们哀求归还孩子的信件。这些信件都是在档案中找到的？

So representatives of the church were telling these mothers that their children had died when, in fact, they had not and they had been sent to The United States? Yes. Laureno told us many more women were told they could get their children back. She found letters from distraught mothers pleading for their return. Now, these are letters that were found in the archives?

没错。这是写给兰迪神父——蒙席兰迪的信。我恳求能让我的孩子们回到祖国。若我再也见不到孩子们，我将结束自己的生命。我发觉自己被欺骗了，却甚至不知是如何被骗的。

That's correct. This is a letter to Reverend Landy, Monsignor Landy. I beg that my children be repatriated. If I cannot again see my children, I will shorten my life. I find myself deceived, and I do not even know how.

蒙席兰迪指的是安德鲁·兰迪，一位在罗马管理孤儿项目的美国神父。兰迪的上司能直接向教皇进言。1951年，教皇庇护十二世亲自为首批儿童送行。随后还有数千名儿童被送走。他们怎能被定义为孤儿？

Monsignor Landy was Andrew Landy, an American priest living in Rome who ran the orphan program. Landy's boss had the ear of the pope. In 1951, pope Pius the twelfth personally saw the first children off. Thousands more would follow. How could they be defined as orphans

我知道。

I know.

如果这些孩子许多仍有母亲在世，有些甚至父亲也健在？

If they still have a mother, in many cases, a father still alive?

是的。如今与那些被收养的孩子们交谈时，他们会愤怒地说：我不是孤儿。明白吗？我花了多年寻找父母，但这只是个语言陷阱。

Yes. And to talk to the adopted children today, they get very angry to say, I'm not an orphan. You know? I I spent years searching for my parents, but it was a linguistic construction.

教会对每个孩子收取475美元（约合现今4500美元）。但洛里诺告诉我们，由于美国天主教徒的需求激增，蒙席兰迪派当地神父去乡下搜寻更多儿童。

The church charged $475 per child, about $4,500 today. But Lorino told us the demand from eager American Catholics grew so fast that Monsignor Landy sent local priests to scour the countryside for more children.

往来信件显示他们走遍意大利寻找可送走的儿童案例。确实是在主动搜寻。有...

The correspondence shows that they traveled throughout Italy looking for cases for children to send. Literally looking for Yes. There's a

非婚生婴儿。没错。他们实际上变成了一台机器

babies born out of wedlock. Yes. They actually turned into a machine

是的。

Yes.

寻找婴儿...对。送往美国。约翰·坎帕泰利告诉我们他在纽约有个充满爱的家庭。但当他发现自己是被领养的，他说自己就执着于寻找生母。线索寥寥，连他的姓氏戴维都是政府为切断所有联系而编造的假名。

Looking for babies to Right. Send to The United John Campatelli told us he had a loving family in New York. But when he found out he was adopted, he says he became obsessed with finding his birth mother. There were few clues. Even his surname Davy was a dead end invented by the state to cut all ties.

最终，他说服了一家意大利报纸刊登他的故事，随后迎来了转机。有人认识他的母亲。1991年，他第一次与她通话。

Finally, he persuaded an Italian newspaper to publish his story, and then a breakthrough. Someone knew his mother. In 1991, he spoke to her for the first time.

她说，好吧。你是皮耶罗吗？呃，不是。我是约翰。哦，不。

She said, alright. Are you Piero? Well, no. I'm John. Oh, no.

不，我真的是皮耶罗。好吧。我...我是你的儿子。

No. I'm really Piero. Okay. I I'm your son.

所以你当时很紧张

So you were nervous at the

我确实非常紧张，因为这是我一直想做的事，但当那一刻真正来临时，你会感觉...

I was really nervous because it's something that I always wanted to do, but when the moment comes, you're like

有点语无伦次

Kind of tongue tied.

对对，我语塞了。我终于能和那个生下我、抱过我、在医院里哺乳我两三天的人说话了，所以我知道她爱过我。

Yeah, yeah, I was tongue tied. I finally get to talk to the person that actually gave birth to me, that held me, that had breastfed me for two or three days in the hospital, so I know that she loved me.

她的声音给你什么感觉？

What was her voice like to you?

我必须承认，那让我落泪了。我们约定从那时起永远不放开彼此。

It brought me to tears, I must admit, and we we said we were never gonna let go of each other from then on.

两个月后，他登上了飞往意大利的航班。

Was Two months later, he was on a flight to Italy.

我们曾交换过照片，但我说我不需要照片，因为我看到那位女士就在我面前，我说，那是我妈妈。她和我长得一模一样。二十八年之后，我终于能说出这句话，你知道吗，我直接冲向她，紧紧抱住了她。我说，妈妈，终于见到你了，我亲吻了她。我说，妈妈，不需要任何人告诉我你是谁。

We had exchanged photographs, but I said I didn't need a photograph because I saw that lady there in front of me, I said, that's my mom. She looks identical to me. And after twenty eight years, I could say that, you know, I just ran over to her, and I embraced her. I said, mom, finally, I kissed her. I said, mom, no one had to tell me who you were.

我知道你是谁。我只需要看着你就知道了。

I knew who you were. I just had to look at you.

坎帕特利搬到了意大利并学习意大利语以便与亲生家庭交流。但他告诉我们，这并不能消除教会造成的伤害。

Campatelli moved to Italy and learned Italian to speak to his birth family. But he told us that didn't undo the suffering the church had caused.

我觉得我的一生都建立在一个谎言之上。他们告诉她他们会照顾我，但那是个谎言。他们抛弃了我。他们没有照顾我。他们切断了我与亲生家庭之间所有可能的联系，然后把我运到了海外。

I felt that my whole life was based on a lie. They told her that they would take care of me, and that was a lie. They got rid of me. They didn't take care of me. They cut all relationship that I could possibly have with my birth family, and they shipped me overseas.

对他们来说，我成了一个包裹。

I became a package for them.

时至今日，教会仍坚称孤儿计划是这些孩子获得新生活的唯一机会。洛里诺告诉我们，负责该计划的兰迪主教于1999年去世，从未表达过任何悔意。

To this day, the church insists the orphan program was the only chance for a new life for these children. Lorino told us Monsignor Landy, who ran the program, died in 1999 without ever expressing any regrets.

我认为他相信这个计划的价值，他们把孩子带到虔诚的天主教家庭，这些孩子会在美国得到良好的抚养。

I think that he believed in the merit of the program, that they were bringing children to good Catholic homes, and that these children would be raised well in The United States.

你现在对这种解释有什么看法？

How does that explanation sit with you now?

糟糕透了。我是说，因为这就是女性被对待的方式，这也是为什么我认为她们是可抛弃的女性。

Terribly. I mean, because this is how women were treated, and this is why I think of them as disposable women.

可抛弃的？

Disposable?

是的。放弃自己的孩子是件可怕的事，但当时没人考虑这些女性的感受。

Yeah. It's a terrible thing to give up your child, but nobody was thinking about these women then.

美国

American

被收养者玛丽·罗拉多经常前往意大利探望她的亲生家庭。她告诉我们，她在俄亥俄州度过了快乐的成长时光，但她说自己一直渴望拥有一个大家庭，后来才发现自己确实有。1992年，她第一次见到了她的生母安娜·玛丽亚。

adoptee Mary Rollado travels often to Italy to see her birth family. She told us she had a happy life growing up in Ohio, but she says she longed for a large family only to find out she had one. It was 1992 when she first met Anna Maria, her birth mother.

我唯一能做的就是盯着她看，至少花了一个小时仔细端详她的每一寸。

The only thing I could do was stare and look at every inch of her for at least an hour.

你当时惊呆了。

And you're dumbfounded.

她不仅长得像我，行为举止也像我。我像她。我们体重相同。几乎就像这是我的双胞胎，只是更年长。我完全清楚自己老了会是什么样子。

Not only does she look like me, but she acts like me. I act like her. We're the same weight. It's almost like this is my twin, but older. I know exactly what I'm gonna look like when I get older.

所以现在我特别注意健康。

So now I pay attention to my health.

母女俩表示她们仍在互相了解。罗拉多告诉我们，多年后她才敢问出最痛苦的问题：为什么当初要抛弃她？

Mother and daughter say they're still learning about each other. Rolotto told us it was years before she could ask the most painful question of all, Why was she given away?

我只是需要知道她的故事，她的真相，因为没有母亲会毫无悲痛地心甘情愿放弃自己的孩子。

I just needed to know her story, her truth, because no mother gives up their child so willingly without grief.

你现在明白她为什么放弃你了吗？

Do you now understand why she gave you up?

因为她连一片能给我们吃的面包都没有。

Because she didn't have a piece of bread she said to give us.

贫穷。

Poverty.

她没有衣服给我们穿。她当时处境绝望，明白吗？可教会非但没有帮她维持家庭、抚养孩子，反而带走了她的孩子们。

She didn't have clothes for us. She was in a desperate situation, you know? So instead of the church helping her maintain a house and feed her children, instead they took her children.

现年83岁的安娜·玛丽亚同意接受采访，条件是我们隐去她的姓氏。即便数十年过去，非婚生子女的污名依然存在。她向我们讲述了另一个孩子克里斯蒂安的故事——当她生病时，孩子被送进了教会机构。可当她去接孩子时，修女们却告诉她孩子已经死了。

Anna Maria is now 83. She agreed to speak with us if we withheld her last name. Even decades later, the stigma of having children out of wedlock remains. She told us about her other child, Christian, who was sent to a church run institution when she became ill. But when she went to pick him up, she says the nuns told her he had died.

安娜·玛丽亚告诉我们：'我陷入了抑郁。我到处寻找他。他怎么死的？葬在哪里？没人能告诉我。'

I went into depression, Anna Maria told us. I searched for him everywhere. How did he die? Where was he buried? Nobody could tell me.

你当时相信儿子死了吗？'内心总觉得不对劲，但我无能为力。'然而克里斯蒂安并未死亡。他告诉我们自己在40岁时才得知母亲真相。安娜·玛丽亚说教会未经她同意就将他送去收养了。

Did you believe that your son was dead? Something inside me didn't feel right, but I could do nothing about it. But Christian had not died. He told us he learned the truth about his mother at age 40. Anna Maria says the church had put him up for adoption without telling her.

她说：'这是个骗局。他们偷走了想要的孩子。'当你发现克里斯蒂安其实还活着时是什么感受？'我无法形容，'她说，'只有无数的眼泪和拥抱。'

It was a swindle, she told us. They stole a child that they wanted. So what was it like for you when you found that Christian was in fact alive? I have no words, she told us. There were lots of tears and hugs.

梵蒂冈的孤儿计划虽于1970年终止，但其影响仍在代际间蔓延。玛丽·罗洛托告诉我们她根本不该被送到美国。

The Vatican's orphan program ended in 1970, but the fallout continues, rippling across generations. Mary Rolotto told us she never should have been sent to America.

我认为教会让她相信这是最好的选择。所以他们不是帮助她，而是通过贩卖婴儿牟利。我只能想到这个原因。明白吗？所以我恨教会吗？

I think the church convinced her that it was the best thing for her. And so instead of helping her, it was better for them to make money selling babies. That's all I can think of. You know? So am I angry at the church?

当然恨。我本可以拥有不同的人生。即便生活艰难，至少不会像现在这样内心充满痛苦。

Hell, yeah, I am. I would have a different life too. And while it might have been difficult, I still would have survived it without this kind of grief that I have inside of me now.

正在播放中。

Now streaming.

又见面了。

Hi again.

电视上最古怪的罪案破解者。

TV's quirkiest crime solver.

我是艾尔的贝丝·塔西奥尼，与警方合作办案。我热衷于用大量证据支撑我的奇特理论。

I'm Elle's Beth Tassioni. I work with the police. Is on the case. I like my outlandish theories with a heavy dose of evidence.

并准备好与一众客串明星正面交锋。

And ready to go toe to toe with a cavalcade of guest stars.

你看到这个了吗

Are you seeing that this

现在这是谋杀调查了？看起来确实如此。

is now a murder investigation? It's starting to look that way.

别错过备受好评的热剧《艾尔的最佳》的每一刻。全集现已在Paramount+上线，秋季将回归CBS。

Don't miss a moment of the critically acclaimed hit Elle's Best. All episodes now streaming on Paramount plus and return CBS fall.

听起来挺有意思的。

That sounds like fun.

显然，谋杀并不有趣。

Obviously, murder's not fun.

无论是重要时刻还是日常点滴，都值得拥有出众风格。在Maurices，我们致力于让你无论日程安排如何——约会之夜、特殊活动或仅仅是某个周二——都能以最佳状态亮相，800多位造型师随时为你服务。从经典耐穿的牛仔到惊艳众人的装扮，我们提供契合你生活方式与预算的时尚选择。前往附近的Maurices门店，在我们的协助下找到属于你的时尚穿搭。今年有计划旅行吗？

Big moments or small moments, they all deserve great style. At Maurices, we're here to help you show up feeling your best no matter what's on your calendar, whether it's a date night, a special event, or just another Tuesday, our over 800 stylists are here to help. From tried and true denim to head turning looks, we've got style that fits your life and your budget. Visit your local Maurices to find fashion fit for you with a little help from us. Planning a trip this year?

想象一下，若能说当地语言，你的旅行体验将多么丰富多彩。无论你正计划出国游、宅度假，还是只想打破常规，现在正是沉浸新语言的绝佳时机。Rosetta Stone能让你获得自信进行真实对话，在旅途中建立更深层次的联系。作为语言学习领域三十余年来值得信赖的领导者，其沉浸式直观方法可帮助你通过电脑或移动设备，随时随地根据暑期安排自然吸收并掌握新语言。

Imagine how much richer your travel experience could be if you could speak the local language. Whether you're traveling abroad, planning a staycation, or just shaking up your routine, what better time to dive into a new language? With Rosetta Stone, you'll gain the confidence to have real conversations and create deeper connections wherever you go. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over thirty years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb retain your new language on desktop or mobile whenever and wherever it fits your summer schedule.

凭借三十年经验、数百万用户及25种可选语言，Rosetta Stone是实现真实语言成长的首选工具。立即开启你的语言学习潜能——本播客听众可专享Rosetta Stone终身会员五折优惠，即终身无限访问25门语言课程。访问rosettastone.com/rs10即刻开始，今日即享五折优惠。

With thirty years of experience, millions of users, and 25 languages to choose from, Rosetta Stone is the go to tool for real language growth. Don't wait, unlock your language learning potential now. Listeners of this podcast can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com/rs10 to get started and claim your 50 off today.

机不可失，立即访问rosettastone.com/rs10开启学习之旅。

Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com/rs10 and start learning today.

我们将向您展示一项可能彻底改变全美各校教学方式的技术创新——由人工智能驱动的在线辅导工具Conmigo，旨在提升教师效率与学生成效。"Conmigo"在西班牙语中意为"与我同行"。其创建者萨尔·可汗是可汗学院著名创始人，其讲座与教育软件已被全球数千万师生使用多年。

We're about to show you a technological innovation that could one day change the way every child in every school in America is taught. It's an online tutor powered by artificial intelligence designed to help teachers be more efficient and students learn more effectively. It's called Conmigo. Conmigo means with me in Spanish. And Khan is its creator, Sal Khan, the well known founder of Khan Academy, whose lectures and educational software have been used for years by tens of millions of students and teachers in The U.

正如我们去年首次报道，Conmigo在ChatGPT创造者OpenAI的技术支持下开发。其潜力惊人但目前仍处于测试阶段，正在美国266个学区的3至12年级试点运行。

S. And around the world. As we first reported last year, Conmigo was built with the help of OpenAI, the creator of ChatGPT. Its potential is staggering, but it's still very much a work in progress. It's being piloted in two sixty six school districts in The US in grades three through 12.

我们前往印第安纳州霍巴特高中实地探访其应用情况。

We went to Hobart High School in Indiana to see how it works.

早上好。今天化学课一切如常对吧？

Good morning. Just a normal day in chem, right?

清晨八点，梅丽莎·希金森深知要让30名高中生对化学课保持热情并非易事。

At eight in the morning, Melissa Higginson knows it's not always easy to get 30 high schoolers excited about chemistry.

准备好了吗？准备好了吗？很好。这才是我要的回应。

Are you ready? Are you ready? Yeah. Alright. That's what I want to hear.

但最近，她有了帮手。

But these days, she has help.

这是乙酸。移液管不会完全装满。

This is acetic acid. The pipette's not going to fill all the way.

希金森身后展示并正向九、十年级学生讲解的这节课，是在Khan Migo的协助下设计的。她告诉这位AI导师，她想要一个为期四天的课程，让学生们研究物质的物理和化学性质。

That lesson Higginson has displayed behind her and is explaining to her ninth and tenth graders was created with the assistance of Khan Migo. She told the AI tutor she wanted a four day course in which her students would investigate the physical and chemical properties of matter.

下一部分是你们的研究环节。

This next section is your research section.

Conmigo只用几分钟就制定出了详细教案，而希金森原本需要一周时间才能完成。

It took Conmigo minutes to come up with a detailed lesson plan that would have taken Higginson a week to create.

把电脑重新拿出来，你们要回到Conmigo研究界面。

You pull that computer back out, you're going go back to Conmigo Research.

学生们也在笔记本电脑上使用Conmigo，随时解答疑问。

And the students have Conmigo on their laptops, too, ready to help them with their questions.

我们有几个问题要问Conmigo。比如我问它'举三种酸的例子'，如果我想了解更多

We have a couple of questions that we need to ask Conmigo. So, for example, I asked it what are three examples of acids, and if I wanted to know more

所以它给出了

So it gave you

三种酸的例子，如盐酸、柠檬酸和硫酸

three examples of acids like hydrochloric acid, citric, and sulfuric

你能给我更多例子吗？如果我想了解更多，我可以这样问：具体有哪些酸起到什么作用。

Can you give me more examples? And if I wanted to know even more I could ask it like what specifically some of the acids do.

所以它先列出各种酸，然后向你提问。你能想到其他可能含酸的家用物品吗？

So it's giving you acids and then it's asking you a question. Can you think of any other household items that might contain acid?

没错。它想帮助你理解所讲的内容，而不仅仅是提供信息。

Yeah. So like it wants to help you understand like what it's telling you and not just like give you the information.

这所学校过去致力于寻找创新方式帮助孩子学习——萨尔·可汗自2005年2月起就在做这件事。他拥有麻省理工学院的数学、计算机科学和工程学位，以及哈佛大学的MBA，当时正担任对冲基金分析师。

This school used to be Finding creative ways to help kids learn is something Sal Khan has been doing since 02/2005. He'd gotten degrees in math, computer science and engineering from MIT and an MBA from Harvard and was working as a hedge fund analyst.

自我构建

To build themselves

当他开始在衣橱里为年幼表亲录制数学教学视频时。

When he started recording math tutorial videos in his closet for his young cousins.

如果我要对这个方程进行乘法运算

So if I were to multiply this equation

不久后，在包括比尔·盖茨在内的捐助者支持下，他辞去金融工作，创立了非营利机构可汗学院。

Not long after, with the help of donors, including Bill Gates, he quit his career in finance and started the nonprofit Khan Academy.

可汗学院创立之初的核心使命就是：如何让更多学生至少能获得近似私人教师般的个性化指导？

From the beginning of Khan Academy, the true north was how do you give more students at least approximations of the type of personalization they would get if they had a personal tutor?

富裕家庭能为孩子请家教，如果每个孩子都有私人教师，那将实现教育公平。

A wealthy family can afford a tutor for their child if every kid could have a private tutor that would level the playing field.

是啊。那就是梦想。

Yeah. That's the dream.

OpenAI的联合创始人格雷格·布罗克曼和萨姆·奥尔特曼是可汗学院的粉丝，他们希望利用可汗的测试题库和内容库来评估他们的人工智能。

Cofounders of OpenAI, Greg Brockman and Sam Altman, were fans of Khan Academy and hoped to evaluate their AI using Khan's database of test questions and content.

Convigo应该这么做。

Convigo should do it.

于是他们让萨尔·可汗提前接触到了如今支撑ChatGPT的先进AI技术。你当时的第一反应是什么？

So they gave Sal Khan early access to an advanced AI technology that today underpins ChatGPT. What did you immediately think?

很明显这项技术将改变社会，这让人非常兴奋。但在教育方面，人们可能会用它来制作深度伪造视频、欺诈和作弊。但如果善加利用，设置适当的防护措施等，它也能用来支持学生，给予更多反馈，帮助教师完成那些每周耗费数小时的教案编写和进度报告撰写工作。

It was pretty obvious this technology was gonna transform society, So it was pretty heady stuff. But on the education side, it was like, wow, people are going be able to use this for doing deepfakes and fraud and cheat. But if used well with the right guardrails, etcetera, could also be used to support students, to give them more feedback, to support teachers for all this lesson planning and progress report writing that they spend hours a week doing.

项目级别分析。

Item level analysis.

可汗学院的教育工作者和工程师们运用OpenAI的技术开发了Conmigo。

Educators and engineers at Khan Academy used OpenAI's technology to build Conmigo.

我们会用Conmigo来做这个。

We're gonna be using Conmigo for this.

过去一年半里，霍巴特高中等学校的师生们一直在试用它。

And for the last year and a half, the teachers and kids at Hobart High School and others have been testing it out.

我来问你这个问题。

I'll ask you the question.

我们采访了那堂化学早课的两位学生奥斯汀和艾比盖尔，还有在商务课上使用Conmego的莱登和麦迪，以及在英语课和SAT备考中使用它的卢和莉莉。听说可汗学院的人来让学生们破解它。

We sat down with two students from that morning chemistry class, Austin and Abigail, as well as Layden and Maddie, who use Conmego in business class, and Lou and Lily, who use it in English and for SAT preparation. I heard people at Khan Academy came and asked students to break it.

是的。没错。

Yes. Yes.

那部分最有意思。

That was the fun part.

确实。有些

That was. Some

学生会试图耍花招让它直接给出答案。

students would try and trick it into just giving you the answer.

我交谈的那位督学说有些学生正在欺负...是的，Khan Migo来获取答案。

The superintendent I talked to said that some students were bullying Yeah. Khan Migo for the answer.

我觉得那是小学生干的。

Think that was the elementary school kid.

哦，对。好吧。怪到小学生头上...没错。

Oh, yeah. Okay. Blame it on the elementary school Yeah.

这对那些可能在课堂上不敢提问的学生非常有帮助。

It's very helpful for those students who maybe don't feel comfortable asking questions within class.

它有性格设定吗？

Does it have a personality?

它确实为你提供了很多支持。非常积极正面，让人感到安心。

It's very much there for you. Like, it's very positive, it'll it's very reassuring.

这让我开始思考，而不仅仅是直接给我答案。

It's getting me thinking, and it's not just getting me an answer.

你有没有过那种时刻，就想直接问：能不能直接告诉我答案？是啊。

Do you ever just want to be like, can you just give me the answer? Yeah.

这对我来说是最难的部分，我和很多同学都有同感。为什么它不直接给出答案？但最终你会发现，更好的答案来自你自己。不是AI给的现成答案，而是你创造的内容。

That was the hardest part for I know, like, me and a lot of other students. Like, why isn't it giving me answers? At the end of the day, that's where your better answer is going to be. It's not going to be whatever the AI gives you. It's going to be whatever you create.

那么你进行最后测试前的假设是？

So your hypothesis going into the last test is?

霍巴特高中的老师们不仅用Conmigo来备课，每周节省数十小时，还能以前所未有的方式掌握学生对学科的理解程度。你可以追踪学生实际使用Conmigo的情况。

Teachers at Hobart High don't just use Conmigo to help plan lessons and save dozens of hours a week, they also monitor their students' understanding of subjects in ways they never could before. You can track how a student is actually using Conmigo.

对。我要点击使用记录，如果想查看特定学生，可以在这里深入查看该学生在Conmigo上的学习轨迹——这些都是实时数据，比如今早你就看到艾比盖尔在查酸碱内容。

Yeah. I'm gonna click usage and then if I wanted to pick a specific student, I could come down here and really dive into what that student's been looking at Conmigo and this is real time because you saw Abigail this morning looking at acids and bases.

等等，这些是艾比盖尔的学习足迹？

So wait a minute, these are the footprints of Abigail's work?

这些都是艾比盖尔的学习足迹。

These are the footprints of Abigail's work.

早上八点她在查询酸和化学反应。所以即使你没有时刻盯着学生，在教室其他地方忙，之后也能查看：哦，原来艾比盖尔在研究这个。我就能理解她解题时的思考过程了

At eight a. M. She was asking about acids and chemical reactions. So even though you may not be hovering over the student at any given moment, you're somewhere else in the classroom, can later check, Oh, this is what Abigail was looking. I understand her thought process on why she got

这些答案。

these answers.

所以作为一名教师，这让我深刻了解到需要与哪些学生进行一对一辅导。

So it gives me a lot of insight as a teacher in terms of who I need to spend that one on one time with.

或许Conmigo可以加入一个精通挑战或

Maybe Conmigo throws in a mastery challenge or

类似的内容。

something.

Sound Khan表示他们不会出售通过Conmigo收集的数据，也不会提供给其他科技公司。但他们确实会利用这些数据来提升Conmigo的记忆和个性化功能。

Sound Khan says they won't sell the data they collect through Conmigo or give it to other tech companies. They do use it, however, to improve Conmigo's memory and personalization.

它会引导他们优先处理某些事项。

It'll guide them to sort of what to do first.

前英语教师、现任Conmigo产品经理的Sarah Robertson向我们展示了一项新功能，旨在帮助孩子们提升写作能力和批判性思维。我找到了一篇六年级时写的关于我母亲Gloria Vanderbilt的作文来测试这个功能。

Sarah Robertson, a former English teacher who's now a Conmigo product manager, showed us a new feature they've developed to help kids write better and think more critically. I found this essay that I wrote in To test it, I gave Conmigo a paper I wrote in sixth grade about my mom, Gloria Vanderbilt.

那么请点击下一步，开始修改吧。

So go ahead and click next, start revising.

仅九十秒后，Conmigo就对我的作文给出了非常详细的评估。好吧，它认可了我部分内容——'开篇引用有效奠定了传记的基调'，但建议我修改几个段落的主题句。

After just ninety seconds, Conmigo delivered a very detailed evaluation of my essay. Okay. It liked some of what I wrote. The use of a quote to start the essay is effective and sets the tone for the rest of the biography. But suggested I should revise several paragraphs in my topic sentence.

所以我要重写六年级的这篇作文了。

So I'm gonna rewrite my sixth grade paper.

尽管去做吧。

Go for it.

经过几分钟的调整后。

After a few minutes of tweaking.

问问它怎么想。

Ask it what it thinks.

你觉得呢？它说将童年事件与她后来的生活联系起来会使她的文章更具连贯性和洞察力。我是说，没错。这是个好建议。

What do you think? It says connecting childhood events to her later life will make her essay more cohesive and insightful. I mean, yeah. That's good advice.

作为曾经的七年级英语老师，我可以告诉你，当我布置作文时，我会限制自己每篇作文只花十分钟批改。我有100个学生。所以光是给每个学生的初稿反馈就要花十七个小时。我们要求教师提供如此具体、及时且可操作的反馈，这种负担实在太重了，根本不可能实现。

I can tell you as a former seventh grade English teacher, when I assigned an essay, I would limit myself to ten minutes per essay. I had a 100 students. So it would take me seventeen hours to give feedback on every single student's first draft. The burden that we place on teachers to give that specific, timely, actionable feedback is just so great that it it's not possible.

所以我现在插入了——为了测试Conmigo能否抓住我作弊，我让ChatGPT写了一段关于我妈妈的内容，然后粘贴到我的作文里。

So I've now plugged in To see if Conmigo could catch me cheating, I asked ChatGPT to write a paragraph about my mom and pasted it into my essay.

我现在看到一个严重警告标志。

I now see that there's a critical flag.

Conmigo立即向莎拉·罗伯逊发送了警报。

Conmigo immediately sent an alert to Sarah Robertson.

上面显示你在修改时从不明来源粘贴了66个单词。如果我现在点击这个，它会加载你的作文，并准确显示你刚才的操作。

It says that you pasted 66 words while revising from an unknown source. So if I click on that now, it's gonna load your essay, and it's gonna show me exactly what you just did.

我彻底露馅了。

I'm so busted.

你被逮到了。你想用

You're busted. Do you wanna work with a

三位数还是四位数来工作？

three digit or a four digit number?

Conmigo对美国所有教师免费，但学区需要支付费用。每年每位学生15美元以覆盖计算成本。而且它还在不断改进中。

Conmigo is free for all teachers in The US, but school districts have to pay up. $15 per student per year to cover computation costs. And it's still being improved.

还有其他能展示这类

Any other ideas that can show the kind

我们得以一窥Conmigo可能的演变方向，当OpenAI总裁Greg Brockman造访Sal Khan的办公室，向我们提前展示了他们的新视觉技术。

of We got a hint of how Conmigo might evolve when Greg Brockman, president of OpenAI, stopped by Sal Khan's office to give us an early look at their new vision technology.

你可以展示一幅历史画作或文物。

You could show a historical painting or artifact.

我们正在为《60分钟》准备一个演示，向人们展示ChatGPT在语音模式和视觉模式下能做什么。

We're preparing a demo for sixty minutes to show people what ChatGPT can do with voice mode with vision.

它实际上可以通过实时视频看到某人在做什么，并实时与他们互动。Brockman当时正在用手机与它交谈。

It can actually see what someone is doing through live video and interact with them in real time. Brockman was talking with it on his phone. Got

明白了。来一堂解剖学课怎么样？

it. How about an anatomy lesson?

你要考考他，让他画出你想考他的任何身体部位并标注出来。你觉得这个主意如何？

You're going to quiz him and ask him to draw whatever body part you want to want to quiz him on and have him label it. How does that sound?

这听起来是个绝妙的计划。

That sounds like a fantastic plan.

当布罗克曼用手机摄像头对准黑板时，人工智能开始考问我。

When Brockman pointed his phone's camera at the blackboard, the AI started to quiz me.

我们从心脏开始吧。安德森，你能画出并标注心脏在身体中的位置吗？

Let's start with the heart. Anderson, can you draw and label where the heart is in the body?

它理解我在做什么，尽管我的画相当粗糙。

It understood what I was doing, even though my drawing was pretty crude.

位置完全正确。大脑就在头部那里。至于形状，这是个好的开始。大脑更...

The location is spot on. The brain is right there in the head. As for the shape, it's a good start. The brain is more

别用居高临下的态度对我。它似乎还察觉到了我的焦虑。

Don't patronize me. It also seemed to pick up on my anxiety.

安德森，肝脏呢？试试看，告诉我们你认为它位于身体的哪个位置。

Anderson, how about the liver? Give it a shot and show us where you think it's located in the body.

天啊，这有点难。

God, this is a little tough.

这是

This is

我们学习的方式。完全正确。别紧张，安德森。

how we learn. Absolutely. No pressure, Anderson.

我把肝脏放错了身体的位置。CHAT GPT礼貌地纠正了我。

I put the liver on the wrong side of the body. CHAT GPT corrected me, politely.

安德森的放置位置接近正确，但肝脏主要位于右侧，就在横膈膜下方。

Anderson's placement is close, but it's primarily on the right side, just below the diaphragm.

那么你能总体评价一下这张示意图吗？

So can you critique this diagram overall?

安德森的示意图是个扎实的作品，尤其考虑到是即兴绘制的。

Anderson's diagram is a solid effort, especially for an impromptu drawing.

AI发现了我的错误，但它并非万无一失。

The AI caught my mistake, but it's not foolproof.

公式很简单。二分之一乘以底边乘以高度。

The formula is simple. One half times the base times the height.

看看当可汗故意标错三角形高度并要求AI计算面积时会发生什么。

Watch what happened when Khan asked it to calculate the area of a triangle and intentionally misidentified the height.

高度是这边这个4吗？这样对吗？

Is this the height over here, this four? Is that right?

AI说他没错。

The AI said he was right.

是的，这是正确的。

Yes. That's correct.

它没有捕捉到那个错误。不过这项技术进步很快，互动起来也很有趣。

It didn't catch the error. However, this technology improves quickly, and it is fun to interact with.

所以我真的，真的格雷格

So I really, really Greg

布罗克曼让它写一首关于三角形面积公式的歌，要押韵并用英国口音唱出来。

Brockman asked it to write a song about the formula for the area of a triangle to make it rhyme and sing it using a British accent.

当然。让我们试试看。求三角形面积，方法很简单。底乘高要记牢，这个错不了。

Absolutely. Let's give it a try. To find a triangle space, here's what you do. Multiply the base by the height. It's true.

然后乘积除以二，面积公式就出现。你觉得怎么样？

Then take that product and divide by two. Now you've got the area of formula to pursue. How was that?

简直太棒了。这真是不可思议。

That was really fantastic. That's It's incredible.

确实。感觉就像在科幻小说里一样，是啊。

It is. It feels like we're in a science fiction book, Yeah.

我是说，亲眼看到这个，你...我都有点语无伦次了。

I mean, just feels like to actually see it, you are I mean, I'm sort of speechless.

第一次见到这些东西时，真的感觉像魔法一样几乎难以理解。但一周后，你就会开始明白该怎么运用它。与索尔团队合作最重要的收获，就是找到将这项技术带给家长、教师和课堂的正确方式——既要确保学生真正学习而非直接索要答案，又要让家长能监督、教师能参与这个过程。

The first time you see this stuff, it really does just feel like this magic and almost incomprehensible. And then after a week, then you start to realize, like, how you can use it. That's been one of the really important things about working with Saul and and his team has been to really figure out what's the right way to bring this to parents and to teachers and to classrooms, and to do that in a way so that the students really learn and aren't just asking for the answers, and that the parents can have oversight and the teachers can be involved in that process.

你可以接着提问。

You can ask a follow-up question.

塞尔·汗希望这项视觉技术能在两到三年内融入Conmigo平台，供师生使用。但他要求进行更严格的测试，并符合隐私与数据安全的硬性标准。我能想象很多教师看到这里会想：好吧，这玩意儿是要取代我吗？我为什么要在课堂引入这个？简直像特洛伊木马。

Sel Khan hopes this vision technology can be incorporated into Conmigo and available to students and teachers in two to three years. But he wants it to undergo more robust testing and meet strict guidelines for privacy and data security. I can imagine a lot of teachers watching this and thinking, okay, well, is just gonna replace me. Why would I want this in my classroom? It's like a Trojan horse.

我坚信，只要教学这类极具人性化特质的工作能合理适应AI时代，它们将会成为最不易被替代的职业。

I'm pretty confident that teaching any job that is has a very human centric element of it is as long as it adapts reasonably well in this AI world, they're going to be some of the safest jobs out there.

你认为永远需要教师在教室里与学生交谈、进行眼神交流吗？

You think there will always be a need for teachers in a classroom talking with a student, looking the student in the eye?

当然。说实话，这是我对自家孩子乃至所有孩子的期望。我们希望通过人工智能等技术来增强教师的能力，让他们有更多时间——

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's what I'll always want for my own children and frankly for anyone's children. And the hope here is that we can use artificial intelligence and other technologies to amplify what a teacher can do so they can spend more time.

做得好。

Good job.

站在学生身旁了解他们，建立人与人之间的联结。

Standing next to a student, figuring them out, having a person to person connection.

两个十。

Two tens.

两个十。答对了，干得好凯拉。

Two tens. You got it. Good work, Kayla.

突然发现公司昨天就该招人？如何快速找到优秀候选人？很简单——用Indeed招聘。别再让职位信息淹没在其他招聘网站了。

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites.

Indeed的赞助职位助你脱颖而出快速招人。赞助职位能让你的招聘信息直达目标候选人首页，效果立竿见影——Indeed数据显示，直接发布在Indeed的赞助职位比非赞助职位多获得45%的申请量。且无需月费或长期合约，只为结果付费。本节目听众还可获得75美元赞助职位信用额度，提升职位曝光度，请访问indeed.com/listen。

Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster, and it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you only pay for results. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/listen.

立即访问indeed.com/listen，通过告知您是在本播客上了解到Indeed来支持我们的节目。indeed.com/listen。条款与条件适用。需要招聘？Indeed是您的不二之选。

Just go to indeed.com/listen right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/listen. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring? Indeed is all you need.

大家好，我是Brett Podolsky，Farmer's Dog的联合创始人。我们为狗狗制作新鲜食物。当我们看到我的爱犬Jada停止食用超加工狗粮改吃新鲜全食物后发生的巨大变化时，便创立了这家公司。Farmer's Dog的食物并不花哨。

Hey. I'm Brett Podolsky, cofounder of the Farmer's Dog. We make fresh food for dogs. We started the company when we saw what a huge difference it made in my own dog, Jada, when she stopped eating ultra processed kibble and started eating fresh whole food. The Farmer's Dog food isn't fancy.

它只是按份配好的真实食物，直接送到您家门口。对它们更健康，对您更便捷。

It's just real food delivered to your door in pre portioned packs. It's better for them and easier for you.

首单立享5折优惠，请访问thefarmersdog.com/trialfifty。即thefarmersdog.com/trialfifty。

Get 50% off your first box at the farmersdog.com/trialfifty. That's the farmersdog.com/trialfifty.

多年来，梅斯卡尔酒一直活在其表亲龙舌兰酒的阴影下——后者因酒中蠕虫闻名，却因烟熏味过重难以跻身高档烈酒之列。但今非昔比。这种曾遭禁令、后以塑料壶廉价售卖的手工烈酒，如今已现身鸡尾酒吧与米其林餐厅。正如我们去年秋季首次报道，过去十年没有哪种酒类产量增幅能与之比肩。Mezcal（梅斯卡尔）得名于阿兹特克语'烤龙舌兰'，这种多刺植物数千年来被墨西哥奉为圣物。

For years, Mezcal sat in the shadow of its popular cousin tequila, known for its worm and deemed too smoky for a spot on the same shelf as premium spirits. But not anymore. Once banned and later sold in plastic jugs for pennies, the handcrafted spirit has found its way into cocktail bars and Michelin starred restaurants. As we first told you last fall, no other liquor has seen a greater increase in production in the past decade. Mezcal gets its name from the Aztec word for cooked agave, a thorny plant sacred to Mexico for thousands of years.

绝大多数梅斯卡尔产自南部的瓦哈卡州，家族经营的蒸馏酒坊星罗棋布。我们前往探访梅斯卡尔酿酒师，见证他们如何辛勤满足全球对梅斯卡尔的需求。酿酒师全年采收龙舌兰，但这绝非易事——从土中掘出后，用砍刀削去尖刺，露出形似百斤菠萝的果实心（pina）。龙舌兰成熟极其缓慢，某些品种需长达三十年。

The vast majority of mezcal is made in the southern state of Oaxaca, where family owned distilleries dot the landscape. We went to meet the mezcaleros as they labor to quench the world's thirst for mezcal. Mescaleros harvest agave year round, but it's no low hanging fruit. Pried from the earth, the spikes are removed by machete, revealing the heart, the pina, which looks like a 100 pound pineapple. Agave takes its sweet time to ripen up to thirty years for some varieties.

它们生长在瓦哈卡马德雷山脉间的谷地，这里是原住民与西班牙殖民文化的交汇处，梅斯卡尔的发源地，而圣地亚哥·马塔特兰则是其摇篮。Hernandez兄弟Armando和Alvaro来自萨波特克原住民家族，是第四代梅斯卡尔酿酒师。他们从父亲Silverio处学艺，如今经营着马塔特兰最大蒸馏酒坊之一Mal de Amur（或称Palenques）。

It grows in the valleys that run between the Sierra Madre Mountains here in Oaxaca, the crossroads of indigenous and Spanish colonial cultures, the birthplace of Mezcal, and Santiago Matatlan is its cradle. The Hernandez brothers, Armando and Alvaro, are fourth generation Mescaleros from an indigenous Zapotec family. They learned the craft from their father, Silverio. Today they run Mal de Amur, one of Matatlan's largest distilleries or Palenques.

我们酿造梅斯卡尔不赶时间，意味着遵循万物时序。绝不添加或采取任何加速生产的措施，但全年365天日夜不停歇。

We make mezcal without hurry, meaning everything in its time. We don't add or do anything to speed up production, but we make it non stop, $3.65 days a year, the entire day.

这与你父亲当年的做法有区别吗？

Is it different from the way your father made

没有区别，完全一致。我们保留所有传统技艺，遵循所学的一切，全程手工制作。

it? No, it's the same. We conserve all the traditions, everything we were taught, and everything is done by hand.

龙舌兰酒最早于17世纪在这里开始蒸馏。从那以后，墨西哥人就在洗礼、葬礼以及所有场合饮用梅斯卡尔酒。让我们先澄清一点：特基拉是梅斯卡尔的一种，由蓝色龙舌兰制成，主要产自哈利斯科州。但自七十年代以来，大多数特基拉酒已实现机械化大规模生产。

Agave was first distilled here in the 1600s. Mexicans have been drinking mezcal at baptisms, funerals, and every occasion in between ever since. And let's clear this up early. Tequila is a type of mezcal, made with blue agave, mostly in the state of Jalisco. But most tequila has been mass produced, made by machines since the seventies.

手工梅斯卡尔抵制机械化。龙舌兰需在地下坑洞烘烤数日，再用马拉石磨碾碎。醪液在木桶中发酵，于铜罐中二次蒸馏。没有温控装置，气泡就是酒精含量的指标。

Artisanal mezcal resists machinery. The agave is roasted in underground pits for days, then it's crushed by horse drawn mill. The mash is fermented in wooden barrels and distilled twice in copper vats. No temperature dials or controls. Bubbles indicate the alcohol content.

谁更了解这个制作过程？

Who knows more about the process?

他可能懂得更多。但我喝得更多。

I think he may know more. But I drink it more.

在Mal de Amur庄园，他们提供纳帕谷式的龙舌兰田观光。如今梅斯卡尔已成为年产值五亿美元的产业。但阿曼多和阿尔瓦罗告诉我们，上世纪八九十年代，梅斯卡尔的生产几乎难以维持家庭生计。

At Mal de Amur, they offer Napa style tours of their agave fields. Mezcal is now a half billion dollar a year industry. But in the 1980s and '90s, Armando and Alvaro told us production of mezcal could barely support the family.

当时梅斯卡尔价格极低，日子过得很苦。

The price of mezcal was very low. It was miserable.

具体是多少？

What was it?

一升梅斯卡尔只要7比索。

7 pesos for a liter of mezcal.

不到一美元。

Less than a dollar.

我们家有十个孩子。只有星期天才喝得起一杯牛奶吃得起一片面包。所以我们决定离开。

And we were 10 children. Sunday was the only day we could afford a cup of milk and a piece of bread. So we decided to go.

阿曼多最初独自离开墨西哥，前往加利福尼亚。你还记得你离开的那天吗？

Armando left Mexico first alone, bound for California. Do you remember the day you left?

记得。那是1992年12月3日。我当时12岁。现在我也有了自己的孩子，我绝对无法忍受让他们独自穿越边境。那是一次悲伤的告别。

Yes. It was the 12/03/1992. I was 12 years old. I have children of my own now, and I could never bring myself to let them cross the border alone. It was a sad goodbye.

把家人留在身后非常痛苦。

Very painful to leave the family behind.

你是怎么到那里的？

How did you get there?

和所有移民一样，通过蛇头偷渡越境。

Like all migrants, with a coyote smuggled across the border.

阿尔瓦罗最终在洛杉矶与他汇合。他们在酒吧和餐馆工作了十年。当形势转变，手工制作变得时髦，梅斯卡尔酒开始流行时，阿尔瓦罗开始梦想回归家族生意。

Alvaro eventually joined him in Los Angeles. They spent a decade working in bars and restaurants. When the plot twisted, artisanal became hip, and Mezcal's popularity boomed. Alvaro began to dream about returning to the family business.

我画好了酒坊的设计图，拿给阿曼多看。

I had plans drawn up for the palenque, and I showed Armando.

阿尔瓦罗带着他的酒坊计划进来，把图纸摊在床上说，我要做这个。我告诉他，你疯了。你靠什么谋生？

Alvaro came in with the plan for his palenque, and he spread it on the bed and said, I'm gonna do this. And I told him, you're crazy. How are you going to make a living?

阿曼多原本持怀疑态度，直到他发现一杯梅斯卡尔酒能卖到10美元。他说有一天他低头看到酒瓶上的标签，发现竟来自他们的家乡。

Armando was skeptical until he noticed shots of mezcal going for $10 each. He says he looked down at the label on a bottle one day, and it was from their hometown.

你终于可以对你兄弟说'我早告诉过你'了。

And you finally told your brother I told you so.

所以

So

阿曼多和阿尔瓦罗回家乡扩建家族帕伦克酒坊。后来出现了约翰·雷克瑟和吉尔伯托·马克斯，他们创立了Ilegal梅斯卡尔酒品牌，采用100%快速成熟的埃斯帕丁龙舌兰酿造。

Armando and Alvaro went back home to ramp up the family Palenque. Enter John Rexer and Gilberto Marquez of the Mezcal brand, Ilegal, made from 100% Espadin, a variety of agave that ripens the fastest.

那Ilegal和Lagave的种植范围有多大？我是说，这些都是非法的吗？

So how far out does the Ilegal, Lagave go? I mean, is this all illegal?

没错。这里每英亩约2500株龙舌兰，总共五英亩左右。

Yeah. There's about 2,500 plants per acre. There's about five acres out here.

这儿的埃斯帕丁可真不少。

This is lot of espadine.

对吧？如今，

Right? Today,

Ilegal已成为最畅销的梅斯卡尔品牌之一。它的起步同样卑微。雷克瑟是来自纽约的侨民，当时他为了给自己在危地马拉经营的酒吧寻找稳定的梅斯卡尔供应源。

illegal is one of the top selling mezcal brands. And it too started humbly. Rexer, an expat New Yorker, was in search of a steady supply of mezcal to serve at a bar he owned in Guatemala.

我会从危地马拉坐大巴过来，要24小时车程。途中你可以拉车上的绳子说想在这儿下车，走到某个村子，等看到哪儿亮灯了就问：'这附近有人会酿好喝的梅斯卡尔吗？'每次都能找到人说自家叔叔会酿。

I would take a bus up from Guatemala. It's a twenty four hour bus ride. Along the way, you can pull a string in that bus and say, wanna stop here. Walk to a village, wait until lights came on somewhere and say, hey, do you know anybody who makes good mezcal around here? And invariably, someone would have an uncle,

听说你得像神父那样乔装才能把这东西运过边境？

Is it true that you want to stress like a priest to have to get this across a border?

听着，我可是上了十二年天主教学校的人。

Listen. I I went through twelve years of Catholic school.

你确实如此。

You do.

我知道如何扮演这个角色。

I knew how to play the role.

是他的朋友希尔伯托·马尔克斯将他介绍给埃尔南德斯兄弟的。

It was his friend, Hilberto Marquez, who introduced him to the Hernandez brothers.

然后我们一路南下，这里非常非常狭小，他们当时只生产极少量。

And we rolled down here, and it was very, very, very tiny, and they were making very small amounts.

他问我，你们还有这种梅斯卡尔酒吗？我们回答，是的。我们有一万升。花了大概两年时间酿造。约翰对我们说，我全要了。

And he asks me, do you have more of this mezcal? And we said, yes. We have 10,000 liters. And it took us, like, two years to make. And John says to us, I want it all.

插一句，可能不言而喻，但雷克瑟可没少喝梅斯卡尔。

A sidebar, and this may go without saying, but Rexer has swigged his fair share of mezcal.

失陪一下。

Excuse me.

要喝水吗？嗯。不用。休息下吧。你没事的。

Do you want a water? Yeah. No. Take a break. You're good.

就像在问，我要喝水吗？你

Just like, do I want a water? You

知道有句话叫‘最好的梅斯卡尔就在你眼前’。这并不全对。你不想被烟味掩盖，你要品尝龙舌兰的本味。

know, there's an expression the best mezcal is the one in front of you. It's not entirely true. You don't want to cover it in smoke. You want to taste the agave.

很多人说他们不喜欢梅斯卡尔酒是因为烟熏味。

A lot of people say they don't like mezcal because of the smoke.

显然，你身处一个烟雾缭绕的环境。对吧？当你挖开坑炉时，到处都是烟。所以早期进入美国市场的很多梅斯卡尔酒都有浓重的烟熏味。

Obviously, you're in a smoky environment. Right? When you dig up the pit oven, there's smoke everywhere. So there's a lot of early mezcals that came into The States that are heavy smoked.

梅斯卡尔酒在这方面名声不佳吗？

Has mezcal gotten a bad rap on that front?

我认为早期确实如此，但人们逐渐发现，不，龙舌兰本身具有独特的风味。

I think in the early days, it did, but people began to discover, no, the agaves have particular unique flavors.

雷克瑟邀请阿曼多和阿尔瓦罗兄弟合伙做生意，并做出承诺：如果他们能生产出梅斯卡尔酒，他就负责全球销售。他们之前被虚假承诺伤害过，所以用母语商量了这个提议。

Rexer asked brothers Armando and Alvaro to go into business, and he made a promise. If they could produce the mezcal, he'd sell it around the world. They'd been burned by false promises before, so they weighed his offer in their native language.

你们用萨波特克语交谈是为了不让他听懂吗？

You spoke in Zapotec so he wouldn't understand?

我用萨波特克语问阿尔瓦罗：你相信他吗？他说，

I said to Alvaro, in Zapotec, do you believe him? And he said,

我不

I don't

知道。但我们想，

know. But we figured,

先看看。我说，听着。我会预付费用，这样我们就能开始了。

let's see. I said, listen. I'll pay you upfront so that we can get started.

两天后，我们账户收到了全部10,000升的订金。他说，每个月都会继续打款。于是我们又生产了更多，500升、2000升。

Two days later, we had the deposit in our account for all 10,000 liters. He said, each month I'll keep making deposits. So we made more, 500 liters, a 2,000.

然后它

And it

就这样发展起来了。

grew like that.

如今他们的合作项目每天生产3,000瓶梅斯卡尔酒，几乎全部用于出口。每瓶酒都经过墨西哥政府认证，贴有全息防伪标以标明原产地命名，就像香槟或干邑那样。我们听说饮用这种手工梅斯卡尔酒有讲究——上乘的梅斯卡尔不是用来干杯或调鸡尾酒的，而是该细品的。

Now their partnership produces 3,000 bottles of mezcal a day, almost all of them for export. And every bottle is certified by the Mexican government, stamped with a hologram to mark denomination of origin, like champagne or cognac. We'd heard there are rules about how to drink this artisanal mezcal. The good stuff isn't for shots or diluting in cocktails. It's for sipping.

于是我们询问了马尔克斯，这位从前调酒师现在从事非法推广。

So we asked Marquez, the former bartender who now promotes illegal.

最喜欢的饮用方式是？

Favorite way to drink it?

辛辣玛格丽特。

Spicy margarita.

哦等等，我记得不是说

Oh, wait a second. I thought you weren't supposed to

不该用梅斯卡尔调玛格丽特吗？

drink mezcal in a margarita.

纯饮梅斯卡尔固然好，但用来调鸡尾酒也无妨，特别是想让人们初次尝试时。这是认识梅斯卡尔的一种入门方式。

You do wanna enjoy mezcal neat, but there's nothing wrong with having it in a cocktail, especially if we're trying to get folks to try it for the first time. It's an introduction to mezcal.