2025年3月8日：德米斯·哈萨比斯与生物钟冷冻技术

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它的发展速度快得惊人。

It's moving incredibly fast.

鲜有人像Demis Hassabis这般理解人工智能的速度。这位诺贝尔奖得主向我们揭示了未来趋势——推理能力。

Few understand the speed of artificial intelligence like Demis Hassabis. He won a Nobel Prize and showed us what's coming next. It's reasoning.

没错，绝对是这样。

Yep, definitely, yes.

他告诉我们，AI将带来充满奇迹的未来——疾病的终结？

AI, he told us, promises a future of wonder. The end of disease?

我认为这触手可及。或许未来十年内就能实现，我看不出有什么不可能。

I think that's within reach. Maybe within the next decade or so, I don't see why not.

我们去买些鸡蛋吧。

Let's get some eggs.

走吧，我们去买些鸡蛋。

Let's go. Let's get some eggs.

越来越多的美国女性选择冷冻卵子以保存生育能力。两者都是卵子。卵子冷冻技术能否实现前几代人只能梦想的事情——将生物钟暂停的机会？

More and more American women are freezing their eggs to preserve their fertility. Both are the eggs. Could egg freezing offer what previous generations only dreamed of, the chance to put the biological clock on ice?

确实存在那种TikTok上的倒计时，而我还没完全准备好。

There definitely is that TikTok clock, and I'm not ready quite yet.

我认为卵子冷冻技术就像20世纪60年代和70年代的避孕药一样具有革命性。

I think that egg freezing is as revolutionary as the pill was in 1960s and 70s.

它和避孕药一样具有革命性。

It's as revolutionary as the pill.

我是莱斯利·斯塔尔。我是比尔·惠特克。我是安德森·库珀。

I'm Leslie Stahl. I'm Bill Whittaker. I'm Anderson Cooper.

我是莎伦·阿尔方西。

I'm Sharon Alfonci.

我是约翰·维特海姆。

I'm John Wertheim.

我是塞西莉亚·维加。

I'm Cecilia Vega.

我是斯科特·佩利。以上是今晚《60分钟》的报道内容。

I'm Scott Pelly. Those stories tonight on sixty Minutes.

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可能性对您意味着什么？

What does possibility mean to you?

这是个难题。

That's a hard question.

是值得你奋力追求的事物。

Something that you can strive for.

意味着我能实现任何下定决心要做的事。当你对自己充满信心并坚信不疑时，那些你能够达成的目标。

If I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself. Stuff that you could achieve.

当可能性随着信心增长而扩大时，我会感到兴奋。

I feel excited at evening is possible when you're more confident.

鞋子在其中扮演重要角色，它们是我风格中最关键的部分。

Shoes are a huge part of that. They are the most important part of my style.

选对鞋子，你就能充分表达自我。

You can, like, express yourself in the right shoes.

一切皆有可能。

Anything is possible.

DSW，无数值得炫耀价格的鞋子。想象一下可能性。

DSW, countless shoes at brag worthy prices. Imagine the possibilities.

去年迪马斯·哈萨比斯获得诺贝尔奖时，他与一位国际象棋世界冠军打扑克庆祝。哈萨比斯热爱游戏，这也让他成为人工智能的先驱。这位49岁的英国科学家是谷歌AI巨头DeepMind的联合创始人兼首席执行官。我们两年前相遇时，聊天机器人正宣告着一个新时代的到来。如今，正如我们在今年春天首次告诉你的那样，哈萨比斯和其他人正在追逐所谓的通用人工智能，一种像人类一样多才多艺但拥有超人速度和知识的硅基智能。

When Dimas Hassabis won the Nobel Prize last year, he celebrated by playing poker with a world champion of chess. Hassabis loves a game, which is how he became a pioneer of artificial intelligence. The 49 year old British scientist is co founder and CEO of Google's AI powerhouse, called DeepMind. We met two years ago, when chatbots announced a new age. Now, as we first told you this past spring, Hassabis and others are chasing what's called artificial general intelligence, a silicon intellect as versatile as a human but with superhuman speed and knowledge.

在获得诺贝尔奖和查尔斯国王授予的骑士爵位后，我们匆忙赶回伦敦，想看看这位可能掌握我们未来命运的奇才接下来会有什么动作。

After his Nobel and a knighthood from King Charles, we hurried back to London to see what's next from a genius who may hold the cards of our future.

一直指引我、以及我始终怀有的热情，就是理解我们周围的世界。从小时候起，我就对那些最大的问题着迷，比如生命的意义、意识的本质、现实本身的本质。我喜欢阅读所有研究这些问题的大科学家和哲学家的著作。我想看看我们是否能推动人类知识的进步。对我来说，实现这一目标的方式就是构建我认为是推动人类知识的终极工具，那就是人工智能。

What's always guided me and and and the passion I've always had is understanding the world around us. I've always been, since I was a kid, fascinated by the biggest questions, you know, the the the meaning of of life, the the the nature of consciousness, the nature of reality itself. I've loved reading about all the great scientists who worked on these problems and the philosophers. And I wanted to see if we could advance human knowledge. And for me, my expression of doing that was to build what I think is the ultimate tool for for advancing human knowledge, is which is AI.

两年前我们在这个房间里坐下时，我想知道如今AI的发展是否比你想象的更快。

We sat down in this room two years ago, and I wonder if AI is moving faster today than you imagined.

它的发展速度快得惊人。我认为我们正处于某种指数级的改进曲线上。当然，过去几年这个领域的成功吸引了更多的关注、资源和人才。这进一步推动了这种指数级的进步。

It's moving incredibly fast. I think we are on some kind of exponential curve of improvement. Of course, the success of the field in the last few years has attracted even more attention, more resources, more talent. So that's adding to this exponential progress.

指数曲线，换句话说，就是直线上升。

Exponential curve, in other words, straight up.

是的，直线上升，进步的速度还在加快。开始吗？

Yep, straight up and increasing speed of progress. Start?

是的。

Yeah.

我们看到了进展

We saw the progress

你好，斯科特。很高兴再次见到你。

Hello, Scott. It's nice to see you again.

在一个能看、能听并能聊任何话题的人工伴侣中。早期的聊天机器人仅从互联网学习。一个名为Astra的应用还能感知现实世界。我们该称她为‘她’吗？

In an artificial companion that can see and hear and chat about anything. Early chatbots learned only the Internet. An app called Astra also takes in the world. Do we call her she?

这是个好问题。我不确定我们是否都知道答案。

It's a good question. I'm not sure we all know the answer yet.

毕博·舒是Project Astra的产品经理，这是一款新一代聊天机器人应用，能用‘自己的眼睛’解读世界。我们向Astra发起挑战，展示了一些我们挑选且Astra首次接触的虚拟画作。

Bibaud Shu is product manager for Project Astra, an app in a new generation of chatbots that interpret the world with their own eyes. We challenged Astra with virtual paintings we chose and showed to Astra for the first time.

这是托马斯·哈特·本顿1942年的作品《七月的干草》。

This is July Hay by Thomas Hart Benton, from 1942.

这幅呢？

How about this one?

那是埃尔·格列柯的《慈善圣母》。那幅画是爱德华·霍珀的《自动贩卖机》。

That is The Virgin of Charity by El Greco. That painting is Automat by Edward Hopper.

画中的人物表现出什么情绪？

The person in the painting, what emotion is she exhibiting?

画中的主体显得沉思而内省，她的表情透露出一种孤独感。

The subject in the painting appears pensive and contemplative, her expression suggesting a sense of solitude.

你能围绕这张图片编个故事吗？

Can you create a story around this picture?

这是城市里一个寒冷的夜晚，也许是周二。那位或许叫埃莉诺的女人独自坐在小餐馆里。由于未来的不确定性和未实现梦想的重压，她感到忧郁。场景在时间中凝固，唯有思绪继续流淌。

It's a chilly evening in the city, a Tuesday perhaps. The woman perhaps named Eleanor sits alone in the diner. She is feeling melancholy due to the uncertainty of her future and the weight of unfulfilled dreams. The scene freezes in time. Only the flow of ideas moving onward.

那句'唯有思绪继续流淌'？真希望是我写的。我们听到阿斯特拉的耐心极限了吗？那段虚构对话是关于什么的？

That line, only the flow of ideas moving onward? I wish I'd written that. And did we hear a limit to Astra's patience? What was that fictional conversation about?

在我构思的故事里，埃莉诺和她的朋友谈论了他们共同的梦想以及追求梦想时面临的挑战。

In the story I imagined, Eleanor and her friend talked about their shared dreams and the challenges of pursuing them.

你说话的方式让我怀疑你是否感到无聊了。

Something about the way you said, made me wonder if you were getting bored.

如果我的语气给你这种感受，我道歉。我的本意始终是进行有深度的交流。

I apologize if my tone came across that way. My aim is always to engage thoughtfully.

然后她说，好吧，如果你不喜欢我的语气我很抱歉。

And she said, well, I'm sorry if you don't like my tone.

嗯，你看

Well, you see

那里发生了什么？

What's happening there?

这很有趣。这再次挑战了这些系统在当下环境中即时反应的能力，而这些情境可能从未被测试过。

Well, that's interesting. That's again in challenge with these systems as they act in the moment with the context that's around them, and that may have never been tested before.

他常常感到惊讶，因为AI程序被发布到互联网上自主学习。它们之后可能会带着意想不到的技能回归。

He's often surprised because AI programs are sent out on the Internet to learn for themselves. They can return later with unexpected skills.

因此我们有一些理论关于这些系统将具备哪些能力。这显然是我们试图构建到架构中的内容。但归根结底，它如何学习、从数据中获取什么，是这些系统训练的一部分。我们并不直接编程设定这些。它像人类一样学习。

So we have theories about what kinds of, capabilities these systems will have. That's obviously what we try to build into the architectures. But at the end of the day, how it learns, what it picks up from the data is part of the training of these systems. We don't program that in. It learns like a human being would learn.

所以，新的能力或特性可能会从这种训练情境中涌现出来。

So, new capabilities or properties can emerge from that training situation.

你明白这为什么会让人担忧。

You understand how that would worry people.

当然。这类系统的双重性在于它们能完成惊人的事情，超越我们自身能够设计或理解的范围。但挑战在于确保我们理解它们创建的知识数据库中的内容。

Of course. It's the duality of these types of systems that they're able to do incredible things, go beyond the things that we're able to design ourselves or understand ourselves. But, of course, the challenge is making sure that the knowledge databases they create, we understand what's in them.

现在DeepMind正在训练其名为Gemini的AI模型，不仅要揭示世界，还要在其中行动，比如订票和在线购物。这是朝着具备人类思维多面性的通用人工智能（AGI）迈进的一步。AGI的进展如何？

Now DeepMind is training its AI model called Gemini to not just reveal the world, but to act in it, like booking tickets and shopping online. It's a step toward AGI, Artificial General Intelligence, with the versatility of a human mind. On track for AGI?

我认为在未来五到十年内实现。

In the next five to ten years, I think.

而在1930年2月，你们会拥有什么？

And in 02/1930, you will have what?

届时我们将拥有一个系统，它能以非常细致深入的方式真正理解你周围的一切，并融入你的日常生活。

Well, we'll have a system that really understands everything around you in very nuanced and deep ways, and kind of embedded in your everyday life.

像Astra那样嵌入眼镜中。关于我现在看到的这栋建筑，你能告诉我什么？

Embedded like Astra in eyeglasses. What can you tell me about this building I'm looking at?

这里是科尔煤场庭院，一个购物与餐饮区。

This is the Cole Drops Yard, a shopping and dining district.

她看到了我所见的。耳机里有个只有我能听见的扬声器。这里在改造成商店前原本是什么？

She sees what I see. There's a speaker in the earpiece only I can hear. What was it originally before it became shops?

科尔煤场庭院最初是一组维多利亚时期的煤炭仓库，用于接收并向伦敦各地分发煤炭。

The Coal Drops Yard was originally a set of Victorian coal warehouses, used to receive and distribute coal across London.

煤炭曾经对伦敦的环境造成过问题吗？

Was coal ever a problem for the environment in London?

是的。煤炭曾是伦敦空气污染的重要来源，尤其在工业革命期间。

Yes. Coal was a significant source of air pollution in London, particularly during the Industrial Revolution.

我们突然意识到，在这段关系中我们唯一贡献的只有双腿——而很快连双腿也将被人工改造。

It occurred to us that the only thing we contributed to this relationship were legs, which will also soon be engineered.

我认为机器人技术将是另一个重大领域。未来几年内它将迎来突破性时刻，届时可能会出现人形机器人或其他类型机器人的展示，它们能真正开始完成实用任务。

I also think another big area will be robotics. I think it will have a breakthrough moment in the next couple of years, where we'll have demonstrations of maybe humanoid robots or other types of robots that can start really doing useful things.

比如说

For example

嘿，机器人。

Hey, robot.

研究人员亚历克斯·李和朱莉娅·维扎尼向我们展示了一台能理解所见之物的机器人

Researchers Alex Li and Julia Vizani showed us a robot that understands what it sees

这是个棘手的问题。

That's a tricky one.

并在模糊指令中推理出解决路径。

And reasons its way through vague instructions.

将黄蓝混合颜色的积木放入对应颜色的球中。

Put the blocks whose color is the combination of yellow and blue into the matching color ball.

黄蓝混合会得到绿色，它成功推导出来了。这是推理能力。

The combination of yellow and blue is green, and it figured that out. It's reasoning.

没错，绝对是这样的。

Yep, definitely, yes.

Demis Hassabis童年的玩具不是积木，而是国际象棋。12岁时，他已是同年龄段世界排名第二的冠军。这份热爱引领他走向计算机象棋、电子游戏，最终投身思维机器的研发。他父亲是希腊裔塞浦路斯人，母亲来自新加坡。剑桥、MIT、哈佛的求学经历，让他成为拥有神经科学博士学位的计算机科学家——因为他认为必须首先理解人类大脑。

The toys of Demis Hassabis's childhood weren't blocks, but chess pieces. At 12, he was the number two champion in the world for his age. This passion led to computer chess, video games, and finally, thinking machines. He was born to a Greek Cypriot father and Singaporean mother. Cambridge, MIT, Harvard, he's a computer scientist with a Ph.

你们现在研发的系统会具备自我意识吗？

D. In neuroscience, because, he reasoned, he had to understand the human brain first. Are you working on a system today that would be self aware?

我认为目前没有任何系统让我感觉具备自我意识。显然，每个人都需要通过与这些聊天机器人的互动自行判断。理论上这是可能的。

I don't think any of today's systems, to me, feel self aware or conscious in any way. Obviously, everyone needs to make their own decisions by interacting with these chatbots. I think theoretically it's possible.

但自我意识是你们的目标吗？

But is self awareness a goal of yours?

并非明确目标，但可能会自然涌现。这些系统或许会获得某种自我意识感知。重要的是它们需要理解'你'、'自我'与'他人'，这可能是自我意识的雏形。

Not explicitly, but it may happen implicitly. These systems might acquire some feeling of self awareness. That is possible. I think it's important for these systems to understand you, self, and other. And that's probably the beginning of something like self awareness.

但是，

But,

他说，如果一台机器变得有自我意识，我们可能无法识别出来。

he says, if a machine becomes self aware, we may not recognize it.

我认为我们彼此认为对方有意识有两个原因。一是你表现出一个有意识生物的行为，与我的行为非常相似。但第二点是你运行在相同的基质上。我们都是由相同的碳物质构成，拥有柔软的大脑。显然，机器则是运行在硅基上。

I think there's two reasons we regard each other as conscious. One is that you're exhibiting the behavior of a conscious being, very similar to my behavior. But the second thing is you're running on the same substrate. We're made of the same carbon matter with our squishy brains. Now, obviously, with machines, they're running on silicon.

所以，即使它们表现出相同的行为，甚至说出相同的话，也不一定意味着我们所拥有的这种意识感受与它们将来会拥有的相同。

So, even if they exhibit the same behaviors and even if they say the same things, it doesn't necessarily mean that this sensation of consciousness that we have is the same thing they will have.

有没有AI引擎曾经提出过一个出乎意料的问题？

Has an AI engine ever asked a question that was unanticipated?

到目前为止我还没遇到过。我认为这触及了这些系统仍然缺失的东西。它们还无法真正超越提出一个全新的问题、全新的猜想或提出一个前所未有的新假设。

Not so far that I've experienced. And I think that's getting at the idea of what's still missing from these systems. They still can't really yet go beyond asking a new novel question or a new novel conjecture or coming up with a new hypothesis that has not been thought of before.

它们没有好奇心吗？

They don't have curiosity?

没有，它们没有好奇心，而且可能还缺少一点我们称之为想象直觉的东西。

No, they don't have curiosity, and they're probably lacking a little bit in what we would call imagination intuition.

但他说，它们将拥有更强的想象力，而且很快。

But they will have greater imagination, he says, and soon.

我认为实际上在未来五到十年内，我们将拥有不仅能解决科学中的重要问题或猜想，还能首先提出这些问题的系统。

I think actually in the next maybe five to ten years, I think we'll have systems that are capable of not only solving an important problem or conjecture in science, but coming up with it in the first place.

哈萨比斯因解决一个重要难题而在去年荣获诺贝尔奖。他与同事约翰·詹珀共同开发的人工智能模型成功破译了蛋白质结构。

Solving an important problem won Hassabis a Nobel Prize last year. He and colleague John Jumper created an AI model that deciphered the structure of proteins.

蛋白质是生命的基本构成单元。生物学中的一切，你体内的所有机能都依赖于蛋白质。无论是神经元放电还是肌肉纤维收缩，都由蛋白质介导完成。

Proteins are the basic building blocks of life. So everything in biology, everything in your body, depends on proteins. You know, your neurons firing, your muscle fibers twitching, it's all mediated by proteins.

但像这样的三维蛋白质结构极其复杂，已知的不足1%。过去解析单个结构需要数年时间，而DeepMind的AI模型一年内就解析了2亿个。现在哈萨比斯正用AI加速药物研发进程。

But three D protein structures like this are so complex, less than 1% were known. Mapping each one used to take years. DeepMind's AI model did 200,000,000 in one year. Now, Hassabis has AI blazing through solutions to drug development.

平均而言，研发一种药物需要十年时间和数十亿美元投入。我们或许能将这个周期从数年缩短至数月甚至数周——这在今天听起来不可思议，但当初人们对蛋白质结构解析也是这么想的。这将彻底改变人类健康领域。我相信有朝一日，借助AI我们或许能治愈所有疾病。

So on average, it takes, you know, ten years and billions of dollars to design just one drug. We can maybe reduce that down from years to maybe months or maybe even weeks, which sounds incredible today, but that's also what people used to think about protein structures. It would revolutionize human health. And I think one day, maybe we can cure all disease with the help of AI.

疾病的终结？

The end of disease?

我认为这个目标触手可及。或许在未来十年内就能实现，我看不出有什么不可能。

I think that's within reach. Maybe within the next decade or so, I don't see why not.

德米斯·埃萨巴斯告诉我们，AI可能实现他所谓的'激进丰裕'——消除资源稀缺。但他也担忧潜在风险。

Demes Esabas told us AI could lead to what he calls radical abundance, the elimination of scarcity. But he also worries about risk.

我主要担忧两点：一是恶意行为者——这些系统的使用者可能将其用于有害目的；二是随着AI系统自主性和能力增强，我们能否确保始终掌控系统，使其符合人类价值观，造福社会并遵守安全边界。

There's two worries that I worry about. One is that bad actors, human, peop-, you know, users of these systems, repurpose these systems for harmful ends. Then the second thing is the AI systems themselves, as they become more autonomous and more powerful, can we make sure that we can keep control of the systems, that they're aligned with our values, they're doing what we want that benefits society, and they stay on guardrails.

安全边界是系统内置的防护机制。我担心AI霸权竞赛是否会演变成安全标准的逐底竞争。

Guardrails are safety limits built into the system. And I wonder if the race for AI dominance is a race to the bottom for safety.

这确实是我的重大忧虑之一。虽然竞争推动进步，但可能诱使某些参与者走捷径，而最先被牺牲的往往是安全与责任。关键在于如何加强协调——不仅是行业领军者，国家层面也需参与。AI将影响每个国家、全球每个人，这是国际性议题。

So, that's one of my big worries, actually, is that, of course, all of this energy and racing and resources is great for progress, but it might incentivize certain actors in that to cut corners. And one of the corners that can be shortcut would be safety and responsibility. So, the question is, how can we coordinate more as leading players, but also nation states even? I think this is an international thing. AI is going to affect every country, everybody in the world.

因此，我认为世界和国际社会对此有发言权是非常重要的。

So, I think it's really important that the world and the international community has a say in this.

你能教会AI代理道德吗？

Can you teach an AI agent morality?

我认为可以。它们通过示范学习，通过教导学习。我认为我们为这些系统必须做的一件事就是赋予它们价值体系、指导原则和一些防护栏，就像你教育孩子的方式一样。

I think you can. They learn by demonstration. They learn by teaching. And I think that's one of the things we have to do with these systems is to give them a value system and guidance and some guardrails around that, much in the way that you would teach a child.

谷歌DeepMind正与数十家机构竞赛，追求人工通用智能，其人性化程度将让人无法区分。这让我们想到德米斯·哈萨比斯在诺贝尔奖得主签名簿上签名。机器何时会首次签名？之后，人类还会再签名吗？

Google DeepMind is in a race with dozens of others striving for artificial general intelligence, so human that you can't tell the difference. Which made us think about Demes Hassaba signing the Nobel Book of Laureates. When does a machine sign for the first time? And after that, will humans ever sign it again?

我认为下一步将是这些神奇的工具，它们将增强我们人类几乎所有的努力。而在此之后，当AGI到来时，我认为它将彻底改变我们做事的方式。这几乎...我想我们需要新的伟大哲学家在未来五到十年内出现，以理解其影响。

I think in the next steps is gonna be these amazing tools that enhance our almost every endeavor we do as humans. And then beyond that, when AGI arrives, you know, I think it's gonna change pretty much everything about the way we do things. And and it's almost, you know, I think we need new great philosophers to come about, hopefully in the next five, ten years to understand the implications of this.

在这里，不仅有令人惊叹的景色，还有时间仿佛被拉长的感觉，以及山顶恰到好处的微风。通过AllTrails，你可以探索全球超过45万条最佳自然步道。立即下载免费应用。

Out here, it's not only the amazing views, but the way time stretches out a little longer and how the breeze hits just right at the summit. With AllTrails, you can discover nature's best with over 450,000 trails around the world. Download the free app today.

我是布雷特·波多尔斯基，The Farmer's Dog的联合创始人。我们为狗狗制作新鲜、真实的食物。听起来很简单，事实也是如此。但几十年来，宠物食品公司花费数十亿美元广告费，宣传我们应该每天给狗狗喂食超加工颗粒饲料。我与自己的狗狗Jada的经历让我意识到还有另一种方式。

I'm Brett Podolsky, cofounder of The Farmer's Dog. We make fresh, real food for dogs. It sounds so simple, and it is. But for decades, pet food companies have spent billions of dollars advertising that ultra processed pellets are what we should be feeding our dogs every single day. My experience with my own dog, Jada, made me realize that there was another way.

多年来，Jada一直有各种问题。我能在广播里谈论便便吗？我尝试了各种方法，直到一位兽医建议我给她喂新鲜食物。这完全改变了情况。这就是我们创立The Farmer's Dog的原因，让每只狗狗都能体验真正健康饮食的好处。

For years, Jada had constant issues. Can I talk about poops on the radio? I tried everything until a veterinarian recommended I feed her fresh food. It was a complete turnaround. That's why we started the Farmer's Dog, so every dog could experience the benefits of a truly healthy diet.

这并不花哨。只是新鲜的全食物，直接送到你家门口，根据狗狗的独特需求预先分装。这对它们更好，对你更简单。

It's not fancy. It's just fresh, whole food, delivered right to your door, pre portioned for your dog's unique needs. It's better for them and easier for you.

首单立享五折优惠，访问thefarmersdog.com/trialfifty。网址是thefarmersdog.com/trialfifty。

Get 50% off your first box at the farmersdog.com/trialfifty. That's the farmersdog.com/trialfifty.

美国的生育率已接近历史最低点。一个重要原因是过去三十年间，美国女性在二十多岁生育的数量急剧下降。然而，女性的生理机能或生育能力下降的年龄并未改变。这是无解的难题吗？于是卵子冷冻技术应运而生。

Fertility rates in The US are near historic lows. One reason is a sharp decline over the last three decades in the number of American women having babies in their 20s. And yet there's been no change in women's biology or the age at which fertility declines. Unsolvable problem? Enter egg freezing.

正如我们今年早些时候首次报道的，冷冻胚胎用于体外受精（IVF）已有数十年历史。但冷冻未受精卵子曾是更艰巨的科学挑战，最初仅用于癌症等威胁生育能力的患者。十二年前，非医疗原因的卵子冷冻成为被认可的实践。此后需求激增，如今已有数十万颗卵子被冷冻，带来了巨大财富、希望与争议——这项技术能否让女性实现前几代人只能梦想的事：将可怕的生物钟滴答声冻结在冰中？

As we first reported earlier this year, freezing embryos for in vitro fertilization, IVF, has been possible for decades. But freezing unfertilized eggs was a tougher scientific challenge, used initially for patients with cancer and other conditions that threatened fertility. Egg freezing, for nonmedical reasons, became an accepted practice twelve years ago. And since then, demand has skyrocketed, with hundreds of thousands of eggs now frozen, raising big money, big hopes, and big questions. Could egg freezing offer women what previous generations only dreamed of: the chance to put that dreaded ticking of the biological clock on ice.

一个雨天的周二清晨，凯特·桑德雷格来到曼哈顿中城的生育诊所，接受提取并冷冻卵子的微创手术。次日早晨——嗨。

Early one rainy Tuesday, Kate Sonderegger came to a fertility clinic in Midtown Manhattan to undergo a minor surgical procedure to harvest and then freeze her eggs. The next morning Hi.

嗨。

Hi.

在另一家生育中心，我们消毒穿戴后见到了另一位冻卵患者凯瑟琳·施耐德。

At a different fertility center, we scrubbed up and met another egg freezing patient, Katherine Schneider.

感觉如何？很兴奋。

How are you feeling? Excited.

她的主治医生、诺斯韦尔健康集团生育科主任托默·辛格护送她进入手术室。"让我们取些卵子吧。"

Her doctor, Tomer Singer, head of Northwell Health's fertility practice, escorted her into the OR. Let's get some eggs.

走吧，去取卵子。

Let's go. Let's get some eggs.

取卵是艰苦过程的最终阶段：近两周的每日自行注射激素（有时一天数针），这些针剂促使卵巢成熟多个含有卵子的卵泡，以便外科医生用细针进行抽取。

Egg retrieval is the culmination of an arduous process: nearly two weeks of daily self administered hormone injections sometimes several a day. The shots induce the ovaries to ripen multiple follicles, the sacs that contain eggs, so that a surgeon can go in with a tiny needle.

你能看到针头的白色末端。

You can see the white end of the needle.

然后抽吸卵泡中的液体，这些液体随后被送入相邻的胚胎实验室以寻找卵子。患者就在隔壁房间。没错。我们目睹了胚胎学家们在显微镜下用精细的移液管操作，从液体中寻找并分离出凯瑟琳的卵细胞。

And drain the fluid in those follicles, which is then run into an adjacent embryology lab to search for the eggs. So the patient is right around the corner. Correct. We watched as a pair of embryologists did the delicate work of maneuvering tiny pipettes under a microscope to find and isolate Katherine's egg cells in the fluid.

这些就是所有的卵子。看？一、二、三、四、五、六、七，总共有

And here are all the eggs together. See? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, are

卵子？

eggs?

那些就是卵子。

Those are the eggs.

天啊。几小时后，卵子被放入特制的微型细管中，然后迅速浸入液氮，储存在零下320度的罐子里。它们可能在那里保存多年，直到主人准备解冻它们，加入精子，

Oh my goodness. After a few hours, the eggs are put onto tiny special straws, then plunged into liquid nitrogen and stored in tanks at negative 320 degrees, where they will stay, possibly for years, until their owner is ready to thaw them, add sperm,

然后

and

将其培育成胚胎，这实际上是试管婴儿技术的后半部分。根据目前的数据，与试管婴儿技术一样，冷冻卵子出生的婴儿健康状况并无差异。

turn them into embryos, which is effectively the second half of IVF. According to the data thus far, as with IVF, there are no differences in the health of babies born from frozen eggs.

我认为卵子冷冻技术就像20世纪60、70年代的避孕药一样具有革命性。

I think that egg freezing is as revolutionary as the pill was in 1960s and 70s.

和避孕药一样革命性？是的。如你所知，那改变了一切。

It's as revolutionary as the pill? Yeah. And that changed everything, as you know.

我知道。女性可以选择与谁在一起，而不会意外怀上不合适的人的孩子。卵子冷冻技术将这一选择提升到了新高度。你不必因为30岁或35岁就非得在那个年纪生孩子。你可以将生育期推迟到40多岁。

I know. Women had the option of choosing who to be with and not to accidentally get pregnant with the wrong guy. Egg freezing took it an extra level. So you don't have to have a baby at 30 because you're 30 or 35. You can delay fertility into your 40s.

女性将能在四十多岁时用自己二三十岁时冷冻的卵子生育孩子。

You'll have women having kids in their late 40s with their own eggs that were freezing in their 20s and 30s.

有幅名画描绘一位年轻女子泪流满面，标题是'哎呀，我忘了生孩子'。这种情况将不复存在。

There's a famous painting of the young woman with tears going down her face, Oops, I forgot to have a baby. That won't be true anymore.

没错。我认为我们正在突破界限。

Correct. I think that we're pushing the envelope.

我现在40岁。35岁时冷冻了自己的卵子。

I'm currently 40. I froze my eggs when I was 35.

第一次冷冻时我34岁，第二次是36岁。

The first time I did it, I was 34 years old, and the second time I was 36.

去年34岁时我做了两个周期的冻卵。

I did two cycles last year when I was 34.

我们采访了一群女性关于她们决定冷冻卵子的原因。为什么这是个好主意？

We spoke to a group of women about their decision to freeze their eggs. Why is it a good idea?

我百分之百确定自己非常想要孩子。

I 100% know that I really would love to have children.

亚斯明·希格比30岁，从事咨询工作，有一位认真交往的男友。

Yasmin Higbee is 30, works in consulting, and has a serious boyfriend.

这样我能更享受与伴侣相处的时光，而不必因为生物钟开始滴答作响就仓促生育——我还没完全准备好。这就像一份保险。

I'll be able to enjoy these times with my partner a bit more instead of rushing to have kids because there definitely is that TikTok clock that started and I'm not ready quite yet. It's an insurance.

我知道，你懂的，我会成为一名高龄母亲。

I know that, you know, I'm going to be an older mother.

38岁的医疗保健管理员兼策略师Nametha Jacob尚未准备好，因为她还未找到合适的伴侣。

Nametha Jacob, 38, a health care administrator and strategist, isn't ready yet because she hasn't found the right partner.

这减轻了约会的压力。你不必迫于压力去找到某人安定下来结婚。你听不到那种滴答声。

It takes the stress away from dating. You're not pressured to find someone and settle down and get married. You don't hear the ticking.

那该死的生物钟。它在每个女人的脑海中滴答作响。真是神奇。纽约RMA生育诊所的Lucky Cicon医生说，不管你喜不喜欢，那该死的时钟非常真实。

That damn biological clock. It ticks in every woman's head. Amazing. Like it or not, says Doctor. Lucky Cicon of Fertility Clinic RMA of New York, that damn clock is very real.

我们出生时就拥有了一生中所有的卵子，我们不会产生新的卵子，也无法修复它们。随着时间的推移，它们的数量总是在减少。

We're born with all of the eggs that we're ever going to have, and we don't make new eggs, and we can't fix or repair them. It's always decreasing over time.

所以，你出生时就有一个固定的数量？

So, you're born with a number?

是的。而且它

Yes. And it

立刻就开始减少了吗？

starts decreasing right away?

实际上在你出生前就开始减少了。当你在母亲子宫里20周大的胎儿时，那时你的卵子数量达到峰值，大约六

It pretty much starts decreasing even before you're born. You're a fetus in your mother's womb at twenty weeks, and that's when you have the peak number of eggs, six

到是七二十周吗？

to Is it seven twenty weeks?

是的。

Yes.

从那时起，卵子数量持续减少，卵子也在不断老化。所以当你冷冻卵子时，你就是在阻止它进一步老化。没错。如果你在28岁时取出并冷冻卵子，那卵子的年龄就是28岁。是的。

And from then on, the number keeps going down, and the eggs keep aging. So when you freeze an egg, you are stopping it from aging any further. Correct. So if you remove the egg and freeze it when you're 28, egg is 28 years old. Yep.

直到你解冻它。

Until you thaw it.

是的，这太不可思议了。

Yes, it's incredible.

因为随着年龄增长，女性不仅卵子数量减少，质量也会下降，这意味着它们发育成婴儿的可能性降低。即使在女性20多岁生育能力巅峰期，大约25%的卵子与精子结合后会产生染色体异常的胚胎，很可能导致流产，而这个比例之后会越来越高。

Because it's not just the quantity of women's eggs that decreases with age, it's also their quality, meaning their likelihood of becoming a baby. Even at peak fertility in women's 20s, some 25% of eggs, when combined with sperm, will create embryos that are chromosomally abnormal and will likely lead to miscarriages, and the percentages rise from there.

到了35岁时，这个数字已稳步上升至约30%到35%的胚胎会因35岁的卵子而异常。37、38岁时达到50%。这是个转折点。情况开始加速恶化，40岁时会有60%到70%的胚胎异常。到45岁时，90%的胚胎都会异常。

As you get to 35, that number has steadily increased to about thirty to thirty five percent of embryos being abnormal from your 35 year old eggs. At 37, 38 years of age, fifty percent. That's a turning point. Things start to move more rapidly and at 40 you're looking at sixty to seventy percent of embryos being abnormal. By 45, ninety percent.

90%？没错。

Ninety percent? Correct.

很多时候人们认为，如果他们做对了所有事情，保持健康的生活方式，练瑜伽，一生从未吸烟，感觉自己比实际年龄年轻，就会觉得自己的卵子也比实际年龄年轻。而我不得不向他们解释，遗憾的是，我们没有任何数据表明你可以通过这种方式影响卵子质量。

A lot of times people think that if they've done all the right things, if they've led a healthy lifestyle, they do yoga, they've never smoked a cigarette in their life, they feel younger than their age, and they feel like their eggs will be younger than their age. And I have to explain to them that we have no data to suggest that you can influence your egg quality in that way, unfortunately.

有没有冷冻卵子的最佳年龄？

Is there an optimal age to freeze your eggs?

有。二十多岁。那时你的卵子形成的胚胎基因错误率最低。而且那个年龄你的卵子数量也多得多。

Yes. Your twenties. That's when you're at your lowest possible rate of genetic errors in the embryos that result from those eggs. You also have a lot more eggs at that age.

凯特决定在22岁这个异常年轻的年龄冷冻卵子，因为她即将进入医学院，知道自己还有很长的路要走。

Kate decided to freeze her eggs at the unusually young age of 22 because she's going to medical school and knows she has a long journey ahead of her.

你知道，四年学业结束后还要接受四到七年的培训。所以在完成所有这些之前，我甚至不会考虑组建家庭。

You know, education for four years, training for anywhere from four to seven years after that. And so I'm not even going to think about building a family personally until after I'm done with all of that.

选择冷冻卵子的女性年龄越来越年轻化。

Younger and younger women are beginning to freeze their eggs.

2012年我开始从事卵子冷冻时，大多数女性都是40、41、42岁。如今接诊的患者大多在25岁末到30岁出头。

When I started doing egg freezing in 2012, most of the women were 40, 41, 42. When I see patients today, most of them are late 20s, early 30s.

他表示过去存在污名化现象，仿佛冷冻卵子意味着患者人生失意，但现在完全不同了。

He says there used to be a stigma, as though freezing eggs meant something hadn't worked out in a patient's life, but not anymore.

这已成为普遍现象，甚至带有女性赋权的意味。患者会说：'我三十多岁还没准备好要孩子，我要冷冻卵子，不会将就选择错误的对象。'

It became a common thing. It's almost empowering. You come in, I'm in my 30s, I'm not ready for a baby, I want to freeze my eggs, I'm not going to compromise on the wrong guy.

冷冻卵子费用昂贵。单次周期（含药物）平均花费1.2万至1.5万美元，每年还需500至1000美元储存费。后续解冻受精还需额外1万美元。2014年苹果和脸书将卵子冷冻纳入员工福利曾引发轰动。如今美国超过三分之一的大型企业（员工超2万）都提供该福利，我们的母公司派拉蒙也在其中。

Freezing eggs is expensive. A single cycle, including medication, costs an average of 12,000 to $15,000 plus another $500 to $1,000 each year for storage. To thaw and fertilize the eggs later on costs an additional $10,000 Back in 2014, Apple and Facebook made headlines when they started offering egg freezing as a covered benefit for their employees. Today, more than a third of the largest corporations in The U. S.

员工规模超过2万人的大企业中，有超过三分之一为员工提供卵子冷冻福利，我们的母公司派拉蒙也在其中。

Those with 20,000 or more employees cover egg freezing, our parent company Paramount among them.

当初求职时，这是我重点关注的福利条件。

When I was job searching, it was something I was really looking for.

卡丽莎·西米奇三年前换了工作。

Carissa Simic changed jobs three years ago.

越来越多的公司开始提供这项服务，或者说我注意到了这个趋势。

More and more companies started to offer it, or I was seeing it.

所以这是一个需要考虑的因素

So that was a consideration

确实如此。

Absolutely.

关于你在哪里工作的问题？是的，完全正确。她的冻卵周期费用被覆盖了，Nametha的也是。但也有人批评这些公司的动机。有些人认为公司这样做是为了让你继续工作，避免因生育孩子而离职。

As to where you worked? Yes, absolutely. Her egg freezing cycles were covered, as were Nametha's. But there's also been criticism of those companies' motives. There are some people who feel that the companies do that to keep you at work so that you won't have a child and leave.

不是为了让你开心，而是为了把你拴在办公桌前。

Not to make you happy, but to keep you at your desk.

我个人不这么看。当我得知公司提供这项非常好的福利时，实际上让我对公司的忠诚度和投入度更高了。这是留住顶尖人才的好方法。

I personally don't see it that way. When I learned about the fact that they're offering this really wonderful benefit, it made me more dedicated and committed to my company, actually. It's a good way to retain top talent.

当时我的保险并不涵盖冻卵费用。

My insurance did not cover egg freezing at the time.

现年46岁的蒂娜·兰皮诺在冻卵技术刚兴起时就了解到了它——35岁例行体检时，她收到了一条出乎意料的消息。

Tina Rampino, now 46, learned about egg freezing in its early days when she went for a routine doctor's visit at age 35 and got a message she wasn't expecting.

我的妇科医生对我说：现在就生孩子吧，你的时间不多了。结婚随时都可以，但生育能力不是永远都有的。天啊。回家后我哭了。

My gynecologist said to me, Have kids now. You're running out of time. You can get married whenever you want to get married, but you can't have kids forever. Woah. And I went home, and I think I cried.

我当时就想：我该怎么办？

And I was like, What should I do?

医生曾提到过卵子冷冻。

The doctor had mentioned egg freezing.

我说，你知道，这有点吓人，但我决定去做。

And I said, You know, this is kind of scary, but I decided to do it.

她自费冷冻了10颗卵子，将其视为自己的后备计划。

Paying out of pocket, she froze 10 eggs, which she considered her backup plan.

我当时没有伴侣。

I did not have a partner.

林赛·史密斯森·斯坦利35岁时也自费冷冻了卵子。几年后，她与保罗订婚。他们想要孩子，但要等到结婚后且林赛完成博士学位。

Lindsay Smithson Stanley also paid out of pocket when she froze her eggs at 35. A few years later, she got engaged to Paul. They want children, but not until they're married and Lindsay finishes her PhD.

有很大可能性我们会再得到一个

There's a very good chance So that we'll get another

辛格医生建议解冻她冷冻的18颗卵子，用保罗的精子受精，然后进行基因检测以评估存活率。

Doctor. Singer recommended thawing her 18 frozen eggs, fertilizing them with Paul's sperm, and then doing genetic testing to assess viability.

那是第五天孵化的。

That's a day five hatching.

受精卵发育成5至7天大的胚胎后即可实现。结果如何？林赛和保罗有四个染色体正常的胚胎冷冻保存着等待他们。他们会告诉你胚胎性别吗？

Which is possible once fertilized eggs grow into five to seven day old embryos. The results? Lindsay and Paul have four chromosomally normal embryos on ice waiting for them. Do they tell you the gender?

我们有两个男孩和两个女孩。

We have two boys and two girls.

你停不下来

You can't stop

咧嘴笑着。这很令人兴奋。

grinning. It's exciting.

蒂娜的故事有了不同的转折。疫情之后，依然单身的她决定选择成为单身母亲，并挑选了一位精子捐赠者。

Tina's story took a different turn. After the pandemic, still single, she decided to become a single mother by choice and selected a sperm donor.

我刚满40岁，我知道成为母亲一直是我想要的。抱歉，我

I had just turned 40, and I knew that motherhood was something that I always wanted. Sorry, I'm

但是，用她冷冻卵子培育的第一个胚胎未能成功着床。但后来克里斯托弗在哪？达。

like But the first embryo created from her frozen eggs failed to implant. But then Where's Christopher? Da.

克里斯托弗在这呢。

There's Christopher.

她冷冻卵子培育的第二个胚胎

A second embryo from her frozen eggs

成功了。她

did. She

生下了一个儿子，克里斯托弗。

gave birth to a son, Christopher.

他是个如此快乐、健康的孩子。他非常活泼，喜欢与人交往。在我开始卵子冷冻周期的那天，我截屏保存了一句话：今天做一件未来你会感谢自己的事。哦。

He's such a happy, healthy boy. He's so playful. He loves people. On the day that I started my egg freezing cycle, I screenshotted a quote that said, Do something today that your future self will thank you for. Oh.

这是我时常思考的问题，因为那个决定确实改变了我的人生轨迹。

And that is something that I think about all the time because that really was the decision that changed my life.

但并非每个冻卵故事都有如此圆满的结局。

But not every egg freezing story has such a happy ending.

这简直是毁灭性的打击，毫无疑问是我经历过最糟糕的事情。

It was just devastating. It's really the worst thing that's ever happened to me by far.

她们以为自己拥有实际上并不存在的保险单。

They think they have an insurance policy that they don't have.

冻卵技术是否给年轻女性描绘了过于美好的蓝图？广告之后继续探讨。

Does egg freezing promise young women more than it can deliver? When we come back.

当你突然意识到昨天就该招人时，如何快速找到优秀候选人？很简单——用Indeed招聘平台。别再为职位在其他网站曝光度低而烦恼。

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites.

Indeed的赞助职位能让您快速脱颖而出完成招聘。赞助职位会置顶展示给相关人才，大幅提升效率——Indeed数据显示，直接发布的赞助职位比非赞助职位多获得45%的申请量。更棒的是，无需月费或长期合约，仅按效果付费。本节目听众还可获得75美元赞助职位信用额度，提升职位曝光度，请访问indeed.com/listen。

Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster, and it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you only pay for results. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/listen.

立即访问indeed.com/listen，告知是通过本播客了解Indeed即可支持我们节目。indeed.com/listen（条款与条件适用）。招聘？有Indeed就够了。

Just go to indeed.com/listen right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/listen. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring? Indeed is all you need.

夏末时节，无论孩子们是在享受最后几周假期，还是已开始追问开学日期，现在都是重拾学习的黄金时机。若您正寻找既能帮孩子查漏补缺、保持敏锐，又能无压力领跑新学年的方案，IXL正是答案。这个获奖在线学习平台通过趣味化个性内容，帮助孩子真正掌握从学前到12年级的数学、语言艺术、科学和社会学科知识，让学习延续却毫无课堂压力感。

Summer's winding down, and whether your kids are just soaking up the last few weeks or already asking when school starts, this is the perfect time to ease back into learning. If you're looking for a way to help your child catch up, stay sharp, or get a head start this school year without the stress, IXL is the answer. IXL is an award winning online learning platform that helps kids truly understand what they're learning, whether they're brushing up on math or diving into social studies. It covers math, language, arts, science, and social studies from pre K through twelfth grade with content that's engaging, personalized, and, yes, actually fun. It's the perfect tool to keep learning going without making it feel like school.

研究显示使用IXL的孩子考试成绩更优异——这在全美各州几乎都得到验证。立即行动改变孩子的学习效果，本播客听众今日注册ixllearning.com/audio还可专享8折会员优惠。

Studies show kids who use IXL score higher on tests. This has been proven in almost every state. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. And listeners of this podcast can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixllearning.com/audio.

访问ixllearning.com/audio获取最佳资源

Visit ixllearning.com/audio to get the most

越来越多的美国女性选择冷冻卵子以保存生育能力。相关手术数量从2014年的6000例激增至2023年的39000多例，增幅超过六倍，且仍在持续上升。投资者已注意到这一趋势，预见未来可能涵盖相当比例美国年轻女性的市场。风投和私募机构纷纷注资卵子冷冻初创企业，并购置投资现有私立及学术生育诊所，将其整合为大型医疗网络。但并非所有人都认同冷冻卵子对年轻女性是种恩赐。

More and more American women are freezing their eggs to preserve their fertility. The number of procedures has increased more than six times over, from 6,000 in 2014 to more than 39,000 in 2023, with numbers continuing to go up from there. Investors have taken notice, seeing a market that could one day include a significant percentage of all young American women. Venture capital and private equity firms have backed egg freezing startups and have bought up and invested in existing private and academic fertility clinics to consolidate them into giant networks. But not everyone is convinced that egg freezing is such a gift to young women.

你要承担经济成本，还要承受医疗风险。为了什么？就为一场赌博。

You're taking the financial cost, you're taking the medical cost. For what? For a gamble.

瓦迪普·雷维茨基是生物伦理研究机构黑斯廷斯中心主席，同时担任哈佛医学院高级讲师。我们接触的女性几乎为这个选择欣喜若狂。她们说这相当于冻结了生物钟。那种滴答作响的压迫感消失了。

Vardeep Revitsky is president of the Hastings Center, a bioethics research institute, and is a senior lecturer at Harvard Medical School. The women we've spoken to, they're almost giddy with this choice. They say that they're freezing the biological clock. That ticking thing is, you know, unbearable and it's gone.

我完全理解年轻女性的兴奋。但当我听到她们说'我冻结了生物钟'时，担心的是她们以为这是万无一失的保障。她们误以为自己是把婴儿冻存起来，而非卵子，随时可以解冻成为母亲。事实并非如此——这才是问题所在。

I totally understand why young women are excited about it. My fear when I hear young women say I froze the biological clock is that they think this is guaranteed. They think I put a baby on ice, not my eggs, and I'm just going to go and thaw it when I'm ready to become a mother. It's not that. That's the problem.

她以伊芙琳·高斯内尔的案例为例。伊芙琳在32岁、36岁和38岁三次冻卵，共保存30颗卵子——这被认为是相当保险的数字。当时您是否觉得很有把握？

She points to stories like Evelyn Gosnell's. Evelyn froze her eggs three times at ages 32, 36, and 38 for a total of 30 eggs, considered a very safe number. Did you have some level of comfort?

当然。连我的医生都说'这数量太夸张了，肯定没问题，绝对万无一失'。

Absolutely. Even my doctor was like, That's insane. Like, you're this is gonna be a breeze, totally. No problem.

但当伊芙琳与现任未婚夫爱德华准备使用这30颗冷冻卵子时，仅有19颗存活解冻——这个异常糟糕的结果。更糟的是，这19颗受精卵仅培育出1个胚胎。在忐忑等待基因检测结果时，他们寄望能确认胚胎的健康状况。

But when Evelyn and her now fiance Edward went to use her 30 frozen eggs, only 19 survived the thaw, an unusually poor result. Even worse, once those 19 eggs were fertilized, only one grew to be an embryo. Anxiously hoping for positive results, they sent a few cells off for genetic testing to see if the embryo was viable.

当时我正在上班，收到消息说'检测结果已出，在告知前确认您是否需要知晓胎儿性别'。我立刻想到：既然问性别，说明真的有个成型胚胎存在。

So I was at work and got this message saying, We have your test results. Before we give them to you, just confirming if you want to know the sex. Boy, girl. I just started to think, Oh, wow, they've asked me if I want to know the sex. It means that there's a real embryo there.

这意味着真实存在、发育正常、一切都会顺利。但当我打开报告——'胚胎异常'，而且是个女婴。

It means that this is real. It's normal. It's gonna be fine. It's all gonna be good. And then, boom, I get the report and I open it and it's abnormal and it was a girl.

那里

There

胚胎根本没有机会发育成婴儿。像伊芙琳这样的故事令人心碎。虽然罕见，但也发生过储存罐故障导致数千枚卵子和胚胎被毁的事件。幸运的希坎医生表示，她会向所有患者解释，冷冻卵子永远无法成为保障，因为就像自然怀孕一样，每个阶段都存在损耗。

was no chance the embryo could become a baby. Stories like Evelyn's are heartbreaking. And though rare, there have also been incidents where a storage tank has malfunctioned and thousands of eggs and embryos have been destroyed. Doctor. Lucky Sikhan says she explains to all her patients that frozen eggs can never be a guarantee because just as in naturally occurring pregnancies, there is drop off at every step along the way.

她称之为倒金字塔。

She calls it an inverted pyramid.

开始时你有这么多卵子，然后其中这么多能受精。这么多能形成胚胎。这么多胚胎实际上是基因健康的，而这么多胚胎最终能成功着床。

You start out with this many eggs, and then this many fertilize. This many turn into embryos. This many embryos are actually genetically healthy, and this many embryos actually implant.

你是在下注。赌你将来会需要这些卵子。赌这个过程会成功。即使成功怀孕，年龄越大，怀孕风险就越高。所以你是在冒多重风险。

You're taking a bet. It's a gamble that you'll actually need these eggs. It's a gamble that it would work. And even if you manage to get pregnant, the older you are, the riskier it is to be pregnant. So you're taking multiple risks.

你在多个阶段进行赌博。

You're gambling on multiple stages.

但你的意思是建议不要这么做吗？

But are you saying don't do it?

不，莱斯利，我不是说不要做。我是说这对某些人可能是个好选择。但我希望年轻女性真正拥有选择权。

Know, Leslie, I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying it's probably a good option for some people. But I would like young women to really have options.

她认为社会迫使高成就女性在生育前完成太多目标，导致她们时间耗尽，而如果能在更年轻时成为母亲会更好。

She believes that society pushes high achieving women to get so much accomplished before they have children that they run out of time, and it would be better if they could become mothers younger.

从生物医学角度看最佳时期是20多岁或30岁出头，但社会意义上的最佳时期却更晚。所以我们告诉女性：20多岁时要专注教育、事业、寻找伴侣、获得财务稳定和关系稳定，这样当你生育时才能成为负责任的母亲。

The optimal time from a biological, medical perspective is in your 20s or early 30s, but the socially optimal time is later than that. So I think we're telling women, oh, in your 20s, focus on your education, your career, finding a partner, having financial stability, relationship stability, so that when you do have a baby, you can be a responsible mother.

我是说，你说得好像这是错的。但我觉得这挺对的。这有什么问题吗？

I mean, you're making it sound as if that's wrong. It sounds pretty right to me. What's wrong with that?

我认为选择性冻卵向女性传递的信息是：别担心，我们有解决方案——推迟生育。但这将花费你数千美元，且存在医疗风险。

I think elective egg freezing sends women a message of, Okay, don't worry. We have a solution for you. Delay motherhood. It will cost you thousands of dollars. It does involve medical risks.

很可能最终不会成功。即便成功，你和宝宝的妊娠风险也会更高。但没关系，我们有个解决方案。

There's a good chance it won't work at the end. And if it does work, your pregnancy will be riskier for you and for your baby. But that's okay. We have a solution. A

她主张更好的解决方案是制定带薪育儿假、弹性工作时间、工作场所托儿服务等政策，让女性更容易在年轻时生育。但受访女性表示她们年轻时还没准备好要孩子。

better solution, she argues, would be to have policies like paid parental leave, flexible hours, child care at the workplace to make it easier for women to have babies younger. Who's dating? But these women told us they weren't ready to have children younger.

仍在积极寻找合适的人选。

Still active and trying to find the right person.

她们表示理解这从无绝对把握。如何向她们解释这不是保证呢？

And say they understand there's never certainty. How do they explain that it's not a guarantee?

她们原话就是这么说的：这不是保证。

They said exactly those words. It is not a guarantee.

那么冻卵的成功率是多少？2022年某大型生育中心研究发现，38岁前冷冻至少20颗卵子的女性中，70%成功生育。但成功率随年龄增长和冻卵数量减少而大幅下降。这意味着许多像卡丽莎和纳米塔这样的女性会进行多轮冻卵以储存更多卵子——这就回到了金钱问题。

So what are the chances of success if you freeze your eggs? A 2022 study from one large fertility center found that seventy percent of women who froze at least 20 eggs before the age of 38 had a baby. But success rates dropped off considerably the older women were and the fewer eggs they froze. Which means that many women like Carissa and Namita do more than one round of egg freezing to bank more eggs. And that brings us back to the money.

生育行业正在蓬勃发展，冻卵是重要组成部分。公司通过社交媒体吸引女性的广告、举办健身课程甚至美甲等趣味活动来提供信息、招揽客户。

Business is booming in the field of fertility, and egg freezing is a big part of it. Companies target women with catchy ads on social media, host fun events like fitness classes, even a manicure, to give women information and draw them in.

我目睹的是本领域内的转变。

What I've seen is a transition in my own field.

马塞尔·塞达斯博士，加州大学旧金山分校的生育专家，曾任美国生殖医学学会主席，她认为向女性提供信息固然很好，但她担忧私募股权支持的生育公司过度追求利润的现象正在扭曲激励机制。你是否听说过某些被大集团收购的公司里，医生被迫鼓励患者进行更多周期治疗、采取能带来更高收益的方案？

Doctor. Marcel Cedars, a fertility specialist with the University of California San Francisco and a past president of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, says getting women information is great, but she worries that the emphasis on profits she's seeing in private equity backed fertility companies is creating warped incentives. Have you heard in any companies that are owned by large firms that the doctors are being pressured to encourage more cycles, encourage things that will lead to more revenue?

我希望这不是普遍现象，但确实在某些公司存在这种情况。你多快能接诊一个患者？每个患者要做多少个周期？收入就是基于这些指标。薪酬和奖金也是这么计算的。

I would hope it's not universal, but that is definitely occurring in some companies. How quickly do you get someone? How many cycles do you get per patient? That's how revenue is based. That's how payment and compensation is based.

于是这就成了动机所在。它越来越像一门生意了。确实如此。每次听到有人把我的专业领域称为产业时，我都会感到不适。我认为过去并非如此。

And so that's what the motivation becomes. It becomes much more a business. It does. I mean, I have always bristled when I hear my specialty called an industry. And I think in the past, it wasn't.

但我确实认为它正在变成这样，这让我感到痛心。

But I do think it is becoming that, and it is painful to me.

粉色，14号。她还担忧当低收入女性以及那些不在大公司工作的女性无力承担冻卵费用时的不公平现象。瓦迪普·拉维茨基对此表示认同。

Pink, number 14. She also worries about the unfairness when lower income women and those who don't work for large companies can't afford egg freezing. Vardeep Ravitsky agrees.

选择冻卵的女性绝大多数是白人和资源优渥群体。资源的有无会造成生殖选择权和自主权上的显著差距。

The majority of women who freeze their eggs electively are white and well resourced. And there's a significant gap in your options and your reproductive autonomy if you have resources or you don't.

不是所有人都能这样做。没错。贫困女性就负担不起。

Everyone cannot do this. Right. Poor women.

我认为我们这个领域还有很多工作要做。我们尚不清楚如何合理降低成本。这是个非常昂贵的项目。

I think we have a lot of work to do as a field. We don't yet know how to properly drive down the cost. It's a very expensive endeavor.

如果仅仅是为了让某人安心——对吧。她们应该经历这个过程吗？

If this is being done just for someone's peace of mind Right. Should they go through this?

我认为这取决于她们的年龄和对组建家庭的态度。如果有人告诉我她35岁，明确想要孩子，那么是的，我认为她绝对应该这么做。特别是如果她说想要不止一个孩子——因为她们可能在37、38岁时准备好要第一个孩子且毫无困难。但她们什么时候会准备好要第二个孩子呢？

I think it depends on their age and attitude towards family building. If someone says to me, I'm 35, I know I want children, then yes, I think they should absolutely do this. Especially if they say I want to have more than one child because, you know, they might be ready at 37, 38 and have no trouble at all. But when are they gonna be ready for baby number two?

星星。说话

Stars. Speaking

关于第二个孩子，蒂娜去年七月通过她冷冻卵子中最后一个胚胎，生下了第二个小男孩，克里斯托弗的弟弟西奥。

of baby number two, Tina gave birth to a second little boy, Christopher's baby brother Theo, last July from the final embryo from her frozen eggs.

看到碳水化合物了吗？嘿。

See the carbs? Hey.

诺斯韦尔的辛格医生认为，卵子冷冻技术会越来越好。你认为有一天几乎所有年轻女性都会像例行公事一样这样做吗？

Egg freezing technology, Northwell's Doctor. Singer thinks, will get better and better. Do you think that one day virtually every young woman would do this as it would be routine?

我真的这么认为。一旦它变得负担得起，被保险覆盖，我坚信卵子冷冻和试管婴儿将成为我们下一代繁衍的方式。我认为为了生育而定时性行为或无保护性行为，在下一代左右会逐渐失宠。

I really do think so. Once it's going to be affordable, covered by insurance, I'm a big believer that egg freezing and IVF is going to be the way our next generation will expand. I think that having timed intercourse or unprotected intercourse for reproduction is going to be falling out of favor in the next generation or so.

等等。等等。什么？是的。想想你刚才说了什么？

Wait. Wait. What? Yeah. Think What did you just say?

我说性行为将是为了乐趣和愉悦，但很可能从现在起一代人之后，当夫妇想要孩子时，他们很可能会使用人工生殖技术。你会冷冻卵子。

I said that sex is going to be for fun and for pleasure, but most likely a generation from now, when couples want to have kids, most likely they're going be using artificial reproductive technique. You'll have frozen eggs.

等等，你是说我们不会为了生孩子而进行性行为？

Wait, are you saying that we won't have sex to have children?

我确定我两岁的孩子会问我，妈妈，爸爸，你们进行了无保护性行为。那染色体异常、流产、双胞胎呢？你们在做什么？俄罗斯轮盘赌。

I'm sure my two year old will ask me, Mom, Dad, you had unprotected intercourse. What about chromosomal abnormalities, miscarriages, twins? What were you doing? Russian roulette.

辛格医生认为，未来所有女性都会冷冻卵子，这样进行性行为的唯一原因就是为了乐趣。

Doctor. Singer thinks in the future all women will freeze their eggs so that the only reason to have sex is for fun.

我希望他们这么做了。

I wish they did.

虽然他们似乎对此并未完全信服，但在卵子冷冻和加强教育需求方面绝对与他立场一致。妇科医生是否应在年轻女性就诊时主动提及此事？是的。

While they didn't seem entirely convinced of that, they are definitely with him on egg freezing and the need for more education. Should gynecologists talk about this when you go in and you're young? Yes.

毫无疑问。是的。

Absolutely. Yes.

我好奇他们为何不这么做。

I wonder why they don't.

我们的健康教育总是停留在'如何避免怀孕'。我认为应该开启这样的对话：'你的身体如何运作'，'如果你想要家庭，可能在什么年龄需要考虑这些'。在这种情况下，知识就是力量。

I think our health classes were always, This is how you don't get pregnant. And I think opening the conversation to, This is how your body works. This is, you know, at what age you might want to consider this if you want a family. Knowledge is just power in this circumstance.

如果女性去看妇科医生，你认为医生应该主动提出这个话题吗？

If a woman goes to her gynecologist, do you think that doctor should introduce a subject?

我认为这是个好主意。这确实是个非常敏感的话题，需要谨慎处理。不能带有评判性——不是每个人都必须冷冻卵子。

I think it's a good idea. I do. It's a very sensitive topic, so you have to kind of navigate it carefully. You don't want to be judgmental. Not everyone has to freeze their eggs.

不是每个人都必须生育。但每个人都应该花时间考虑自己的选择，认真思考真正想要的生活。

Not everyone has to have children. But everyone should take the moment to consider their options and really think about what they want.

有个好消息：经历卵子冷冻心碎的伊芙琳没有放弃。经过多轮取卵和试管婴儿尝试后，去年十二月，她和爱德华迎来了一个女婴。

A piece of good news. Evelyn, whose egg freezing journey led to heartbreak, kept trying. And after many more rounds of egg retrieval and IVF, in December, she and Edward welcomed a baby girl.

我是斯科特·佩利。我们下周将继续为您带来《60分钟》的新一期节目。

I'm Scott Pelly. We'll be back next week with another edition of sixty Minutes.

我是德克斯特·摩根。我历经磨难，如今归来只为谢幕演出。还有比纽约更适合藏身的地方吗？区号或许变了，但我的准则永不改变。在这座满是怪物的城市里，我内心的黑暗欲望将如鱼得水。

I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been through hell, but now I'm back for my curtain call. And what better place to hide than New York City? There may be a new area code, but my code never changes. In a city full of monsters, my dark urges will feel right at home.

《嗜血法医：复活》，主演迈克尔·C·豪尔、乌玛·瑟曼，

Dexter Resurrection, starring Michael C Hall, Uma Thurman,

及彼特·丁拉基。全新剧集现已在Paramount+高级套餐上线。

and Peter Dinklage. New series now streaming on the Paramount plus premium plan.

现已在Paramount+热播。全新一季的冒险旅程。

Now streaming on Paramount plus. It's an all new season of adventures.

我们必须阻止这场入侵。

We have to stop this invasion.

快加入这场混战。

Get into this shit.

这支队伍是个团队。

This crew is a team.

我们会找到脱身之法的。

We are going to find our way out of this.

《星际迷航：奇异新世界》。新季现已在Paramount+上线。

Star Trek strange new worlds. New season now streaming on Paramount plus.