2025年9月28日：孤独之声、鹰之谜团、达纳·怀特

眼下局势纷繁复杂：日益加剧的经济不平等、民主制度面临的威胁、环境灾难、空气中弥漫着混乱的腐朽气息。我是布鲁克·格拉德斯通，WNYC《论媒体》节目主持人。想了解导致我们走到今天这一步的种种叙事背后的原因与意义，或许还有如何防患于未然？这正是《论媒体》的专长所在。无论您通过何种平台收听播客，都欢迎订阅我们的节目。

There's a lot going on right now, mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the pass? That's On The Media specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

我只想让人们停止互相枪击。仅此而已。

I'm trying to get people to stop shooting each other. That's it.

在查理·柯克遇刺案之前，没多少人认识犹他州州长。

Not many knew Utah's governor before the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

我们的国家已经支离破碎。

Our nation is broken.

但斯宾塞·考克斯多年来一直致力于治愈美国政治的创伤。

But Spencer Cox has been on a years long crusade to heal American politics.

我认为毫不夸张地说，我们国家的未来正处于危急关头。

I don't think it's hyperbole to say that the the future of our country is at stake.

我们乘着这艘海军小艇横渡波罗的海，寻找一桩航海悬案的线索。在芬兰近海水域，输送电力、天然气和数字通信的海底电缆被人为切断。所以我不得不提出这个看似显而易见的问题——是俄罗斯干的吗？

We cut across the Baltic in this small navy dinghy, looking for clues to a nautical whodunit. Undersea cables that carry electricity, gas, digital communications have been severed in the waters off the coast of Finland. So I have to ask what seems to be the obvious question. Is this Russia?

这

The

UFC中最著名的斗士是谁？提示，他不戴手套。

most prominent fighter in the UFC? Hint, he doesn't wear gloves.

打得好。非常感谢。你抓住他了。

Good fight. Thank you very much. You got him.

是无所不能的老板，达纳·怀特。

It's the all powerful boss, Dana White.

你绝对是毫无歉意地充满男子气概。

You're definitely unapologetically masculine.

这种情况会不会过度？当你听到‘有毒的男子气概’时，

Can this bubble over to too much? When you hear toxic masculinity,

你这是什么意思？

what do What's you that mean?

你告诉我。

You tell me.

不，你刚说过了。一个人可能过于阳刚吗？

No. You just said it. Can you be too masculine?

你告诉我。

You tell me.

答案当然是绝不可能。

The answer is hell no.

我是斯科特·佩利。

I'm Scott Pelly.

我是比尔·惠特克。我是安德森·库珀。

I'm Bill Whittaker. I'm Anderson Cooper.

我是莎伦·阿方索。

I'm Sharon Alfonso.

我是约翰·沃特海姆。

I'm John Wertheim.

我是塞西莉亚·维加。我是莱斯利·斯塔尔。这些故事，以及在我们最后一分钟，我们将在今晚《60分钟》第五十八季首映中探讨导演罗伯·莱纳的最新电影。

I'm Cecilia Vega. I'm Leslie Stahl. Those stories, and in our last minute, we tap into director Rob Reiner's latest film tonight on the fifty eighth season premiere of sixty Minutes.

现在有很多事情正在发生，日益加剧的经济不平等、对民主的威胁、环境灾难、空气中弥漫着混乱的酸臭味。我是布鲁克·格拉德斯通，WNYC《论媒体》的主持人。想要理解导致我们走到这一步的叙事背后的原因和意义，也许还有如何

There's a lot going on right now, mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how

在它们发生之前阻止它们？

to head them off at the pass?

这正是《论媒体》的专长。无论你在哪里收听播客，都可以听听看。

That's On the Media Specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

在查理·柯克被谋杀后，一个孤独的声音从喧嚣中脱颖而出。犹他州的共和党州长斯宾塞·考克斯可能对许多人来说并不熟悉，但在他的州发生刺杀事件后，他问我们是否都能停止憎恨我们的美国同胞。我们想了解更多，并惊讶地发现这位50岁的共和党人多年来一直在为和解奔走呼吁。考克斯要求美国人尊重我们的差异，在当下，这在他的党内并不被普遍赞赏。

A lonely voice rose above the ranker after the murder of Charlie Kirk. Spencer Cox, the Republican governor of Utah, may not have been familiar to many, but after the assassination in his state, he asked whether we could all stop hating our fellow Americans. We wanted to hear more, and we were surprised to learn the 50 year old Republican has spent years campaigning for reconciliation. Cox is asking Americans to respect our differences, which, in this moment, is not universally admired in his own party.

我经常被右翼指责，说我想要人们有一个‘库姆巴亚’时刻。我想要人们手拉手，拥抱一下就能解决问题。我们已经受够了。我们不再手拉手和拥抱了。我没有要求任何人手拉手或拥抱。

I get accused on the right all the time of I just want people to have a Kumbayama moment. I want people to hold hands and just hug it out. And we're done with that. We're done holding hands and hugging it out. I'm not asking anybody to hold hands and hug it out.

我不是在要求那个。我只是想让人们停止互相开枪。仅此而已。我认为我正在做的和正在说的是实现这一目标的最佳方式。有些人会不同意，这没关系。

I'm not asking for that. I'm trying to get people to stop shooting each other. That's it. And I think what I'm doing and what I'm saying is the best way to do that. Some people will disagree with that, and that's okay.

作为社会，我们应该进行这些辩论。我并不总是对的。我犯过错误。我认为其他政治家现在也在试图升高紧张气氛时犯了错误。但我会继续这些对话。

We should have these debates as a society. I'm not always right. I've made mistakes. Other politicians, I think, are making mistakes right now in trying to elevate the temperature. But I'm going to just keep having these conversations.

此时此刻，什么处于危险之中？

In this moment, what's at stake?

斯科特，我认为说我们国家的未来处于危险之中并不夸张。250年前我们开始的这个伟大实验，我们还能团结一致吗？

Scott, I don't think it's hyperbole to say that the future of our country is at stake. This grand experiment that we embarked on two fifty years ago, can we hold together?

如果我们的政治找不到通往更光明未来的道路呢？

And what if our politics cannot find the path to the brighter light?

这就是每当我听到人们说我们处于战争状态时，我总是问的问题。我说，好吧，然后呢？这意味着什么？接下来会发生什么？我现在该向谁开枪？

That's the question I always ask when I hear people say that we're at war. I say, Okay, and what? What does that mean? What is next? Who am I supposed to shoot now?

所以它会在

And so it'd be in the

摄像机，让我们行动起来。那是什么？拍下最佳镜头。

camera and get us to move. What was that? Get the best shot.

9月10日的袭击是那种如今每隔几个月就会发生的事件。四月，宾夕法尼亚州民主党州长及其家人在住宅遭燃烧弹袭击后幸免于难。六月，明尼苏达州两名民主党议员与配偶在各自家中遭枪击。一年前的竞选期间，连唐纳德·特朗普本人也遭遇不测。当得知这次是犹他州时，考克斯难以置信。

The shot, September 10, was the kind of attack now happening every couple of months or so. In April, the Democratic governor of Pennsylvania and his family escaped after their home was firebombed. In June, in their homes, two Minnesota Democratic lawmakers and their spouses were gunned down. A year earlier on the campaign, it was Donald Trump himself. When told this time it was Utah, Cox didn't believe it.

但证据确凿，就在他手机上。

But there it was, on his phone.

视频已经流传开来。没有战争迷雾，事实清晰无疑。那段可怕至极的视频——我真希望自己从未看过。我再次痛恨社交媒体，几乎每个国民，包括我们的年轻人，都在反复循环观看那段视频。

The video was already out. There was no fog of war. There was no doubt what had happened. That terrible, awful video that I wish I had not seen. I hate, again, social media, that almost every person in this country, including our young people, have seen that video on a loop over and over and over again.

我无法抹去记忆，无法停止回想。每次闭眼，那画面就浮现眼前。

And I can't unsee it. I can't stop seeing it. Every time I close my eyes, that's what I see.

州长派助理前往医院，得知柯克已遇难。考克斯拨通了一个号码。当你致电白宫时，心中作何感想？

The governor sent an aide to the hospital who reported that Kirk was dead. Cox dialed a number. As you're calling the White House, what is in your heart?

只有恶心、反胃、难以置信和愤怒。此刻我怒火中烧。无论凶手是谁，我们必将找到你，审判你，并依法严惩不贷。

Just sickness, nauseous, disbelief, anger. At at this point, I'm very angry. To whoever did this, we will find you. We will try you, and we will hold you accountable to the furthest extent of the law.

他的愤怒溢于言表。

His anger was showing.

我只是想提醒大家，我们犹他州仍然保留着死刑。

I just want to remind people that we still have the death penalty here in the state of Utah.

但当他寻找意义时，他想起了双方的苦难。

But when he searched for meaning, he recalled the suffering of both parties.

我们的国家已经支离破碎。最近明尼苏达州发生了政治暗杀事件。宾夕法尼亚州州长遭遇未遂刺杀，还有一位美国总统候选人和前总统、现任总统也遭到未遂刺杀。此刻我说什么都无法让国家团结，也无法修复已经破碎的一切。

Our nation is broken. We've had political assassinations recently in Minnesota. We had an attempted assassination on the governor of Pennsylvania, and we had an attempted assassination on a presidential candidate and former president of The United States and now current president of The United States. Nothing I say can unite us as a country. Nothing I can say right now can fix what is broken.

我们只需要这个国家的每个人都思考现状与理想。我长期关注研究政治暴力，因此对这些事件格外敏感。我看到民主党人和共和党人接连遭遇谋杀和袭击——这就是那一刻我情绪爆发的根源。

We just need every single person in this country to think about where we are and where we want to be. I've been following, I've been studying political violence. And so I I'm keenly aware when these things happen. And, I'm seeing I'm seeing people get get murdered, get attacked, who are Democrats and Republicans. And that's where it came from in that moment.

谋杀案发生后的日子里，当你试图团结国家时，MAGA右翼的理论家史蒂夫·班农称你为‘国家之耻’。

In the days after the murder, as you're trying to bring the country together, Steve Bannon, the philosopher of the MAGA right, called you a national embarrassment.

是的。我热爱言论自由。即便付出生命，我也会捍卫他这样评价我的权利。没关系，我们可以展开辩论。

Yeah. I love free speech. I would give my life defending his right to say that about me. That's okay. We can have that debate.

有些人认为我是国家的耻辱，这也没关系。

There are some people that think I am a national embarrassment, and that's okay too.

你认为这种分裂该归咎于谁？

Who do you blame for the division?

我确实相信社交媒体是一种毒瘤，它把我们最糟糕的冲动放大到极致。它正驱使我们走向分裂，煽动仇恨。那些捕获我们灵魂的算法，剥夺了我们的自主权，通过定期推送让年轻人和老年人都对愤怒与仇恨上瘾的多巴胺刺激，正将我们引向一条极其黑暗的道路。

I do believe that social media is a cancer, and it is taking all of our worst impulses and putting them on steroids. It is driving us to division. It is driving us to hate. These algorithms that have captured our very souls, they've captured our free agency, these dopamine hits that get our young people and our old people addicted to outrage and hate that serve us up on a regular basis are absolutely leading us down a very dark path.

这条道路贯穿那些看似内战的平台，由算法驱动，程序编写出来就是为了放大愤怒的帖子。

A path through platforms that look like civil war, powered by algorithms, programs written to amplify posts of rage.

算法正在彻底摧毁我们。一旦它们掌握了你的政治倾向，就会像狼群一样发起攻击。我们面临这个集体性问题却无法解决，因为我们都深陷其中，不知如何脱身。

The algorithms are absolutely destroying us. Once they know what your political leanings are, then it's like a pack of wolves that just attack. We have this collective problem where that we can't solve because we're all sucked in and we don't know how to get out.

我们在瓦萨奇山脉脚下的盐湖城首府见到了斯宾塞·考克斯。他是八个孩子中的一个，在一个普通农场长大。他是

We met Spencer Cox in the capital at the foot of the Wasatch Range in Salt Lake City. He was raised one of eight on a farm of modest means. He's

一个

a

律师，虔诚的摩门教徒，第二届任期还剩三年。他的保守派记录包括减税、扩大持枪权利和限制堕胎。你是共和党人，但不是特朗普派的共和党人。

lawyer, devoutly Mormon, with three years left on his second term. His conservative record includes tax cuts, expansion of gun rights, and restrictions on abortion. You are a Republican but not a Trump Republican.

嗯，这要看情况。我上次确实投票给他了。

Well, that depends. I did vote for him this last time.

但他2016年或2020年并未选择加入。

He But chose not in with '16 or 2020.

这也是事实，而且每次我们在一起时，他都会为此狠狠数落我。右翼阵营很广泛，而我正试图展示一种从政方式。

That is also correct, and he gives me a very hard time about that every time we're we're together. The tent is broad on on the right, and and I'm trying to show one way to do politics.

他在2020年的从政方式令许多人惊讶。竞选州长时，他拒绝播放负面广告。

His way to do politics surprised many in 2020. Campaigning for governor, he refused to run negative ads.

我认为你应该投票给我。

I think you should vote for me.

是啊。但说真的，你应该投票给我才对。

Yeah. But but really, you should vote for me.

相反，他邀请了他的民主党对手一起上节目。

Instead, he asked his Democratic opponent to join him on the air.

我们可以意见相左但不必彼此憎恨。

We can disagree without hating each other.

无论在犹他州胜败如何，我们都将携手合作。

And win or lose in Utah, we work together.

所以让我们向全国展示还有更好的方式。

So let's show the country that there's a better way.

我是克里斯·彼得森。我是斯宾塞·考克斯。我们认可这条信息。

My name's Chris Peterson. And I'm Spencer Cox. And we approve this message.

考克斯将这一理念推广至犹他州以外——2023年他出任两党制全国州长协会主席时，

Cox took the message beyond Utah when in 2023, he became chair of the Bipartisan National Governors Association. There,

他

he

发起了一项名为‘更优异议’的宣传活动，并重返公众视野。

launched a campaign called Disagree Better and went back on the air.

我是斯宾塞·考克斯，犹他州的共和党州长。

I'm Spencer Cox, Republican governor of Utah.

我是贾里德·波利斯，科罗拉多州的民主党州长。

And I'm Jared Polis, Democratic governor of Colorado.

来自两党的23位州长加入了‘更优异议’行动。

23 governors from both parties joined Disagree Better.

健康的异议意味着不假设对方是被蒙蔽、误信信息或积极试图颠覆美国。

Healthy disagreement means not assuming that the other side is deluded, misinformed, or actively trying to overthrow America.

本月，考克斯将这一信息带到了圣母大学。他已在全国范围内举办了超过20场此类活动，常与民主党州长合作，包括新墨西哥州的米歇尔·卢汉·格里沙姆。‘更优异议’是否意味着我们应该放下分歧，大家各退一步？

This month, Cox took the message to the University of Notre Dame. He's done more than 20 of these events nationwide, often with Democratic governors, including Michelle Lujan Grisham of New Mexico. Does disagree better mean that we should drop our differences and everybody meets in the middle?

绝对不是。事实上，这恰恰相反。堕胎是我们激烈分歧的议题。尽管我们之间存在看似鸿沟的强烈对立，但我想我们都同意应该为单亲妈妈提供更多关怀。这些是我们能在坚持各自对堕胎合法化立场的同时，仍能达成共识的事情。

Absolutely not. In fact, it's the exact opposite of that. Abortion is an issue on which we disagree passionately. And yet, even though we have these very strong, it looks like a chasm between us, I think we would both agree that we should be doing more to take care of single moms. I think those are the types of things that we can agree on while still being pretty passionate about whether we think abortion should be legal

和/或

And or

当你这么做时

when you do

那样，我们倾听后，发现存在某些共同点时，这确实能缓和紧张气氛，创造机会，不仅为了对话，更为了实际行动。

that, and we listen, and we find that we there is some common ground, it it reduces, right, lowers the temperature, it provides opportunity, not just for discourse, but doing something.

州长们是否理解华盛顿所不明白的事？

Do governors understand something that Washington does not?

是的。是的。是的。我们完全注重结果，而非空谈。

Yes. Yes. Yes. We're completely about results, not about rhetoric.

我们常说坑洼不分党派，州长们必须交出实际成果。可悲的是，在华盛顿，我们看到的是表演性政治，实质内容少之又少。

We like to say that that potholes aren't partisan, and governors do have to deliver actual results. I think there's a sadly, in in DC, we've seen this performative politics and and and much less substance.

有些观众看到你们两位坐在一起访谈，会感到非常反感。

There are some people watching this interview who are disgusted that you two are sitting together.

我们需要的是勇气而非安逸。要知道，我不为任何党派工作，我为每一位新墨西哥州民众服务。

Well, we need courage over comfort. You know, I don't work for a partisan party. I work for every single New Mexican.

是的。在我眼中她首先是美国人，其次才是民主党人或任何其他身份。我认为我们需要更多这样的对话，需要在家庭、社区、学校董事会、市议会乃至全国范围内展开这样的交流。

Yeah. I I see her as an American before I see her as as a Democrat or anything else. I think we need more of these conversations. I I think we need them in our in our own homes, in our own neighborhoods, in our school boards, in our city councils, all across the country.

查理·柯克遇害当天，斯宾塞·考克斯接到的首批来电中，就包括民主党人米歇尔·卢汉·格里沙姆的慰问。

The day Charlie Kirk was murdered, one of the first calls Spencer Cox received was from Democrat Michelle Lujan Grisham.

我们应当抓住每个机会谴责政治暴力。若不如此，我们的民主就会动摇。这是一个美国人，一个鲜活的生命，一个因言论自由而逝去的人，他的家人正承受着真实的悲痛，这种痛苦不会在明天就结束。

We should be condemning, at every chance we get, political violence. Our democracy falters when we don't. This is an American. This is a person. This is a person who lost his life in free speech, and there's real grieving for that family, and it doesn't end tomorrow.

这份伤痛将伴随他们一生。

It will last a lifetime.

这话出自民主党人之口。

Says the democrat.

正因为是民主党人说的，所以才是事实。这就是真相。

Says the democrat, because it's true. It's true.

请包含这一点。那天下午已经很晚了。

Please include that. It was late that afternoon.

我们与斯宾塞·考克斯一起返回了犹他谷大学。

We returned with Spencer Cox to Utah Valley University.

那面旗帜，不代表任何一个单一群体。它不代表我们国家的某一部分，而不代表另一部分。

That flag, that doesn't represent any single group. It doesn't represent one part of our country and not another part of our country.

学生们聚集在查理·柯克遇害的地方。考克斯告诉人群，他们不能依赖政客。他说，改变必须来自你们所有人。

Students gathered where Charlie Kirk was killed. Cox told the crowd they can't count on politicians. Change, he said, must come from all of you.

谢谢。感谢带领我们走出来。谢谢。我迫切希望找到更多的建筑师，而不是纵火犯。再次强调，破坏和摧毁太容易了，而今天我们已经有太多这样的情况。

Thank you. Thanks for leading us out. Thank you. I'm desperately looking for more architects and fewer arsonists. Again, it's so easy to burn down and tear down, and we've got too much of that today.

我希望对我们国家有一个积极的愿景，对我们政党有一个积极的愿景，以尊严和尊重对待每个人，这样我们才能让我们的国家重回正轨。

I'm hoping that a positive vision for our country, a positive vision for our party, treating everyone with dignity and respect, that's how we get our country back.

观看这次采访的有些人可能会想，他应该竞选总统，但事实是你永远无法在共和党初选中胜出。

Some people watching this interview might be thinking he should run for president, but the fact is you would never survive Republican primaries.

说实话，想到要竞选总统就让我感到恶心。我对此毫无兴趣。我很高兴有优秀的人愿意去做这件事，但这从来不是我感兴趣的事情。你说得对。我们选拔候选人的方式几乎让我这样的人毫无机会。

Well, the thought of of running for president makes me nauseous. I have no interest in that. I'm glad that there are good people who are willing to do that, but that is not something I've ever been interested in. And you're also correct. The way we select our candidates makes it almost impossible for someone like me to have an opportunity.

有没有可能你的想法太天真了，暴力只会继续下去？

Is it possible that your message is naive, that the violence will just continue?

这很有可能。确实很有可能。我认为开国元勋们也很天真，他们相信可以用与世界历史上几乎所有国家都截然不同的原则建立一个新国家。我认为我们在内战导致分裂、60万同胞丧生后还能重建国家是天真的。所以我坚信，带着些许激情的天真可以改变世界。

That's very possible. That's very possible. I think the founders were naive to believe that they could start a new country based on very different principles than virtually any country in the history of the world. I think that it was naive that we could rebuild after a civil war had fractured us and we had killed 600,000 of our fellow Americans. So I believe that naivete with some passion can change the world.

这可能是唯一真正改变过世界的力量。

It's probably the only thing that ever has.

随着欧洲与俄罗斯关系紧张升级，俄罗斯飞机最近几周多次闯入波兰、罗马尼亚和爱沙尼亚的北约领空。而在波罗的海，另一起事件进一步加剧了紧张局势。名为'鹰S'号的油轮被监测到在海底拖锚航行，导致多条海底电缆被切断。这些电缆承载着现代社会的命脉：电力、天然气、数字通信、全球银行业务乃至互联网本身。没有这些电缆，一切都将陷入瘫痪。

As tensions rise between Europe and Russia, Russian aircraft have pierced NATO airspace in Poland, Romania, and Estonia in recent weeks. And in the Baltic Sea, another incident has raised the stakes even higher. A tanker named the Eagle S was tracked dragging its anchor across the seafloor, leaving severed cables in its wake. Undersea cables carry the lifeblood of modern existence: electricity, gas, digital communications, global banking, the Internet itself. Without the cables, all that would grind to a halt.

过去两年间，波罗的海至少已有11条电缆被切断，主要发生在与俄罗斯共享832英里边界的芬兰附近海域。这一连串破坏事件的幕后黑手仍是个谜，但可以确定的是：在俄乌战争爆发前，此类事件极为罕见。我们乘着这艘小型海军橡皮艇横穿波罗的海，寻找这起海上悬案的线索，前往170英尺长的芬兰扫雷舰'瓦特帕'号。

In the past two years, at least 11 cables have been cut in the Baltic, primarily in the waters off Finland, which shares an 832 mile border with Russia. Who's behind the rash of brakes is a mystery, but this much is known. Before Russia's war with Ukraine, these types of incidents were extremely rare. We cut across the Baltic Sea in this small navy dinghy looking for clues to a nautical whodunit. We headed for the 170 foot Finnish minesweeper Vaterpa.

这艘高耸在我们面前的巨舰是芬兰海上防御体系的关键部分，守护着东接俄罗斯、南邻爱沙尼亚的这片水域。这里的一切都近在咫尺——爱沙尼亚、俄罗斯、芬兰彼此相邻。

This massive ship towering above us is a crucial part of Finland's maritime defenses, guarding these waters between Russia to the East and Estonia to the South. Everything is quite close here. You've got Estonia. You've got this you've got Russia. You've got Finland.

你提到瑞典。所有情况都集中在这一区域。芬兰海军参谋长托尼·约齐亚告诉我们，该舰使用遥控设备监测芬兰湾海底电缆，这片波罗的海狭窄浅水域终日挤满数千艘船只，其中许多通过芬兰水域日夜向印度和中国运输俄罗斯石油和天然气。

You've got Sweden. All come together right in this area. Chief of staff of the Finnish Navy, Tony Jozia, told us the ship uses remote vehicles to monitor undersea cables in the Gulf Of Finland, a narrow, shallow stretch of the Baltic crowded with thousands of vessels, many of them carrying Russian oil and gas to India and China through Finnish waters day and night.

我们掌握芬兰湾实时动态。

We know what's happening in the Gulf Of Finn all times.

监控范围确实庞大。

That's a lot to keep an eye on.

确实如此。比如俄罗斯约40%的商业航运需经波罗的海。

That's true. For example, Russia, 40 percentage approximately of their commercial traffic goes through the Baltic Sea.

其中大部分是石油运输？

And a lot of that is the oil transport?

是的，毫无疑问。

Yes. Definitely.

2024年圣诞节那天，正是载有俄罗斯天然气驶往埃及的'鹰'号船只触发了芬兰全国警报。

It was one of those ships, the Eagle s, loaded with Russian gas headed to Egypt that triggered a nationwide alarm in Finland on Christmas Day twenty twenty four.

我记得非常清楚，因为当时我和家人、年迈的父亲一起在住所里共度圣诞日。

I remember it very clearly because I was here in my residence with my family, with my old father, spending Christmas day.

芬兰总理佩特里·奥尔波接到边境警卫队的紧急电话，打破了节日的宁静。

Prime minister Petri Orpoh got an urgent call from Finland's border guard that shattered the holiday calm.

我被告知芬兰与爱沙尼亚之间的电力电缆出现了问题。

I was told that we have problem with electricity cable between Finland and Estonia.

一条关键的海底电缆——S Link 2，在距离芬兰海岸50英里处严重受损。由于近期已有五起电缆和天然气管道断裂的可疑事件，边境警卫队告诉总理，他们怀疑这次是船只故意切断的。

A critical undersea electric cable, s link two, had been severely damaged 50 miles off the Finnish coast. Because there had been five other recent suspicious cable and gas line breaks, the border guard told the prime minister it suspected this one was deliberately severed by a ship.

他们怎么说？他们告诉我有一艘名为‘鹰S’的船在阿拉亚附近可疑。他们正在前往现场，并已准备好应对。

What did they say? They told me there is suspected ship named Eagle S in Araya. And they are on their way to the place, and they are ready to react.

由于‘鹰S’号接近芬兰领海，奥尔波总理授权采取拦截油轮的非常措施。

With the Eagle s near Finnish territorial waters, prime minister Orpu authorized the extraordinary step of moving to intercept the tanker.

我给边境警卫队负责人打了电话，对他说：你可以相信，你拥有我和政府的全力支持。动用你掌握的一切手段。

I made a phone call to the chief of the border guards, and and I said to him, you can trust that you have my and my government's full support. Use all the tools you have.

芬兰召集全员待命，海岸警卫队船只'图尔瓦'号迅速驶向'Eagle S'号。警方与芬兰国家调查局在岸上监控情况。

Finland called all hands on deck as the coast guard vessel Turva sped toward the Eagle S. Police and Finland's National Bureau of Investigation monitored from shore.

我们当时有能力进行干预、逮捕相关人员并保全证据。

We had the possibility to intervene and apprehend and secure the evidence.

赫尔辛基警察局长亚里·柳库表示，海岸警卫队曾通过无线电询问'Eagle S'号是否已收妥船锚，对方回复'是的，长官，我们的锚已固定'。但三小时后，傍晚六点，当'图尔瓦'号逼近时，船员发现事实并非如此——锚链正垂悬在水中。

Helsinki police chief, Jari Liucu, says the coast guard radioed the Eagle s asking if its anchors were up and secure. The reply was, yes, sir. Our anchors are secured. But three hours later, at 6PM, as the Turva closed in, the crew could see that was not true. The anchor chain was hanging in the water.

我们有充分理由认为这是对方蓄意为之的行为。

We had a strong reason to believe that it was an intentional activity from their side.

据悉，当天'Eagle S'号航线沿途共有五条关键海底电缆被破坏，而该船仍在继续移动。

The Yuku was informed that a total of five crucial undersea cables along the route of the Eagle S had been broken that day, and the ship was still on the move.

显然，若当局不介入，犯罪活动极可能持续。

Of course, there was a risk that criminal activity may continue unless the authorities intervene.

午夜刚过，当船只进入芬兰领海时，芬兰派出特种部队武装小组乘直升机登临'Eagle S'号。他们在夜色中降落在甲板上，从约二十名来自格鲁吉亚和印度的船员手中接管了船只控制权。

Just after midnight, as the ship entered Finnish waters, Finland dispatched an armed team of special forces to the Eagle S by helicopter. They dropped onto the vessel in the dark and seized control from about two dozen crewmen from the countries of Georgia and India.

警方、边防警卫和国防军实际上接管了英国人的船只。这很不寻常吗？嗯，这是自第二次世界大战以来芬兰部队首次登船。

The police and the the border guard and the defense force were actually taking over the Brits. Is that unusual? Well, it was first time when after Second World War when Finnish troops boarded a boat.

这是自第二次世界大战以来的首次

The first time since the Second World

战争？是的，没错。因为在那情况下我们必须采取行动。

War? Yeah, that's right. Because we had to do something in that case.

当时存在一个迫在眉睫的威胁，即芬兰与爱沙尼亚之间的其他关键基础设施可能遭到破坏。

There was an imminent threat that other critical infrastructure between Finland and Estonia would be damaged.

负责芬兰国家调查局'Eagle S'案件的里斯托·洛希告诉我们，Eagle S路径上的下一批电缆可能已经对爱沙尼亚的电力和天然气供应造成压力。

Used Risto Lohi, overseeing the Eagle S case for Finland's National Bureau of Investigation, told us the next cables in the Eagle S's path could have strained Estonia's electricity and gas supply.

因此也有必要进行干预。

So there was also a necessity to intervene.

这是犯罪现场的水下视频。芬兰调查人员确定，Eagle S号船锚在海底拖行了超过六个小时。当船只被命令收起船锚时，锚已经严重损坏，从链条上断裂脱落。

This is underwater video of the crime scene. Finnish investigators determined the Eagle s had raked its anchor across the sea bottom for more than six hours. When the ship was ordered to haul it up, the anchor was so battered, it snapped off the chain.

我们找到了锚，海底的拖痕从第一条受损电缆处开始，拖痕一直延续到船只被拦截的位置。

We found the anchor, and the track mark on the seabed started from the first damaged cable, and the track mark was continuous until the location when the vessel was stopped.

警方将证据移交给芬兰检方，后者以严重刑事破坏和干扰通信罪起诉船长及鹰S号的两名高级船员。他们均表示不认罪。受损电缆修复费用高达7000万美元。案件仍在审理中。法庭上，船长声称锚是被意外拖拽的。

Police handed their evidence to Finnish prosecutors who charged the captain and the Eagle S's two senior officers with aggravated criminal mischief and interference with communications. They pleaded not guilty. The damaged cables cost $70,000,000 to repair. The case is still underway. In court, the captain claimed the anchor had been dragged by accident.

他们拖行了多远的距离？

How far did they drag this anchor?

总计约100公里。

Approximately 100 kilometers altogether.

相当于66英里——直到海岸警卫队巡逻舰托尔瓦号拦截并最终逼停鹰S号。指挥官米科·西莫拉告诉我们，该油轮的行为引发了严重警报。锚上应该设有防止意外脱落的故障保险装置吧？

That's 66 miles before the coast guard cutter Torva confronted and ultimately stopped the Eagle S. Commander Miko Simola told us the tanker's behavior raised serious alarm. There are fail safe measures on the anchor to keep it from dropping accidentally. Are there not?

确实存在安全机制。

Certainly, there are safety mechanisms.

至少有三重不同的

There are like three different

安全机制。船长

safety mechanisms. Captain

声称他不知道锚已被放下并拖行了66英里。这可信吗？

of the ship says that he didn't know that the anchor had been lowered and dragged for 66 miles. Is that believable?

作为一名海岸警卫队官员，这确实难以置信。船长必须时刻清楚锚是收起还是下海的状态。所以这个说法很有趣。我只能这么评价。

It's hard to believe being a coast guard officer, certainly. A captain of the vessel must always know whether the anchor is hoisted or in the sea. So interesting comment. This is what I could say.

有趣的评价。

An interesting comment.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah. Certainly.

更可疑的是这艘20年船龄的"鹰"号所有权问题。《60分钟》长达七个月的调查发现，其所有者通过层层空壳公司隐藏身份。公开记录显示主要所有者是阿塞拜疆籍女性，在迪拜设有办事处。该船由印度公司管理，并租赁给一家俄罗斯大型石油公司。这家石油公司资助了一支难以追踪的油轮船队来运输俄罗斯石油，以规避西方制裁。

More suspicious, the ownership of the 20 year old Eagle s. A seven month investigation by sixty Minutes found its owners hidden behind layers of shell companies. Public records list the primary owner as a woman from Azerbaijan with an office in Dubai. The ship is managed by a company in India and leased to a major Russian oil company. That oil company has financed a fleet of hard to trace tankers to move Russian oil, evading Western sanctions.

这种现象，我们称之为俄罗斯影子船队。

This phenomenon, as we called Russian shadow fleet.

影子舰队？

Shadow fleet?

影子舰队。它正在为普京的战争机器输送资金。

Shadow fleet. It is pumping money to Putin's war machine.

他仍在制造

He's still making

是的。它仍在从俄罗斯石油中获利，是的。

Yes. It is still profit off of Russian oil Yes.

尽管制裁已经实施。

Even though the sanctions are in place.

是的。

Yes.

欧罗波总理告诉我们，影子舰队在波罗的海的持续存在正在加剧与俄罗斯的紧张关系，而俄罗斯仅隔200英里水域。你认为俄罗斯构成威胁吗？

Prime minister Oropo told us the shadow fleet's constant presence in the Baltic Sea is raising the temperature with Russia barely 200 miles across the water. Do you consider Russia a threat?

当然，俄罗斯是个威胁。我们可以看到他们对乌克兰的所作所为。在芬兰，我们也遭遇了许多混合攻击。

Of course, Russia is threat. We can see what they have done against Ukraine. And also in Finland, we have seen many, hybrid attacked.

你所说的混合攻击具体指什么？

What do you mean by hybrid attacks?

我们在波罗的海区域目睹过这类事件。欧洲境内也发生了多起破坏活动。虽然我们并未处于战争状态，但确实遭受着攻击。你们并未开战。是的。

We have seen these incidents in by Baltic Sea. We have seen sabotage in Europe. So we are not in the war, but we are under attack. You're not in war. No.

我们没有参战。但你们正遭受攻击。因为我们是目标。

We are not in war. But you're under attack. Because we are the target.

除了近期俄罗斯军机侵入北约领空事件外，欧盟官员还将欧洲多起袭击事件与俄罗斯联系起来，包括燃烧弹袭击、铁路与军火库破坏、爆炸包裹，以及现在'鹰'号海底电缆断裂之谜。嗯。这些在俄乌战争爆发前都没有发生过吗？

Beyond recent Russian aircraft incursions into NATO airspace, EU officials have connected Russia to numerous attacks in Europe, fire bombings, assaults on rail and arms depots, explosive packages, and now the mystery of the Eagle s. This breaking of the undersea cables. Mhmm. This was not happening before the outbreak of war between Russia and Ukraine?

没有。在俄罗斯侵略乌克兰之前，我们从未经历过此类事件，但之后却频繁发生。

No. We didn't have any this kind of incidents before Russian aggression against Ukraine, but after that, we have had many.

那么我不得不问这个显而易见的问题。这是俄罗斯所为吗？

So I have to ask what seems to be the obvious question. Is this Russia?

我只能说，俄罗斯的影子舰队与这些事件之间存在明显关联。这一点很清楚。

I can only say that there's clear connection between Russian shadow fleet and these incidents. It's clear.

这是否感觉俄罗斯不仅在试探芬兰的防御弱点，也在试探北约的软肋？

Does it feel as though Russia is probing and prodding to find soft spots in not just Finland's defenses, but NATO's?

这是他们试图伤害我们、让我们感到恐惧的方式。

This is their way to try to harm us, make us afraid.

奥尔波总理表示，鹰式事件是对芬兰决心的考验。

Prime minister Orpoh says the eagle s was a test of Finland's resolve.

我们向影子舰队及其背后的势力发出了明确信号：我们有我们的底线。

We sent a clear signal to the shadow fleet and maybe to the actors behind that we have our limits.

芬兰于2023年加入北约。该联盟近期启动了波罗的海哨兵行动，部署舰船和飞机监视影子舰队并保护关键海底基础设施。北约副最高盟军指挥官、英国海军上将基思·布朗特告诉我们，鹰式事件是需要回应的挑衅行为。

Finland joined NATO in 2023. The alliance recently launched Operation Baltic Sentry, deploying ships and planes to monitor the shadow fleet and safeguard critical seabed infrastructure. British admiral Keith Blount, NATO's deputy supreme allied commander, told us the Eagle s incident was a provocation that demanded a response.

我们迅速做出反应以威慑和防止波罗的海地区再次发生类似事件。可以说这是触发我们行动的导火索。当然，自我们建立波罗的海世纪行动以来，尚未发生第二起事件。

We launched a a a a response to try and deter, prevent similar incidents happening again in the Baltic. So it was kind of a triggering event for us. And of course, we haven't seen another incident since we established Baltic Century.

波罗的海世纪号传达的信息是什么？

What is the message that Baltic Century is sending?

我们不会任人摆布、受人干涉。我们不会屈服于那些威胁法治，甚至更糟，威胁我们人民安全与稳定的非法行为。

We're not going to be pushed around, interfered with. We're not going to be subject to illegal behaviors that either threaten the rule of law or worse, threaten the safety and security of our people.

由于与影子舰队有关联，鹰S号遭到欧盟、英国和加拿大的制裁，限制其进入港口。表面上看，这似乎是件小事。但当我看到你们的反应，看到北约的反应时，鹰S号事件实际上已经演变成一件大事。

Because of its connection to the Shadow Fleet, the Eagle S was sanctioned by the EU, England, and Canada, restricting its access to ports. On the face of it, the incident seems to be a small thing. But when I see your reaction, when I see NATO's reaction, that Eagle S incident has turned out to be quite a big deal.

是的，这是件大事。我们必须做出反应。这是我们第一次采取行动。我们表明已准备好捍卫我们的关键基础设施和财产。正因如此，这成为了一个转折点。

Yes, it was a big deal. We have to react. And it was the first time we react. We show that we are ready to defend our critical infrastructure, our property. And that's why it was a turning point.

在美国我们有句俗话：适可而止。

We have a saying in The United States, enough is enough.

没错。适可而止。

Yes. Enough is enough.

他虽未持有冠军腰带，但达纳·怀特是终极格斗冠军赛（UFC）中最显赫且好斗的人物。这位CEO兼赛事推广人堪称联盟的化身：毫不掩饰的力量有余，矫揉造作的礼节不足——令一些人沉醉，却让另一些人难以接受。正如UFC一样，怀特已突破主流文化的防线，从边缘地带跻身超级富豪之列，成为Meta董事会成员并与现任总统交好。需要说明的是，我们多年来一直邀请怀特参与本次节目。

He holds no championship belt, but Dana White is the most prominent and pugnacious figure in the UFC, the Ultimate Fighting Championship. The CEO slash hype man is the embodiment of the league itself: long on unapologetic force, short on precious formality intoxicating to some and a quiet taste to others. And much like the UFC, White has penetrated the defense of mainstream culture, moving in from the fringes to join the ultra rich, serve on the board of Meta and befriend the current president. A small disclosure. We've been speaking with White for years about his appearing on this broadcast.

重磅消息披露。此前，CBS母公司派拉蒙天空之舞最近以近80亿美元购得UFC的媒体版权。没错，笼斗登上电视网。这或许是这项运动及其无所顾忌的领导者取得巨大进展的终极标志。

A heavyweight disclosure. This was before Paramount Skydance, parent company of CBS, recently paid almost $8,000,000,000 for the UFC's media rights. Yes. Cage fighting on network television. Perhaps the ultimate sign of how far this sport and its no holds barred leader have come.

严肃点。周二晚上正适合格斗。我们在八角笼外观看了白大拿的挑战者系列赛，这档流媒体节目同时也是UFC的人才培养体系。

Serious. Tuesday night's alright for fighting. We sat outside the octagon for Dana White's Contender Series, a streaming show that doubles as the UFC's farm system.

是啊。是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

如果选手像这位首回合KO艺术家一样取悦白大拿，他就会奖励他们UFC合同。

If the fighters entertain White, like this first round knockout artist, he rewards them with a UFC contract.

打得好。非常感谢。太精彩了。

Good fight. Thank you very much. Incredible.

这是大老板发出的顶级赛事邀请函。白大拿是本世纪——或许是有史以来——最伟大体育商业传奇的主要缔造者。哦，看起来不错。三十多岁时，他协助以200万美元收购了当时还是叛逆笼斗组织的UFC。如今56岁的他执掌着估值超150亿美元的全球联盟，旗下签约选手达675名。

An invitation by the big boss to the big show. White is chief author of the greatest sports business story of this century, maybe ever. Oh, that looks good. In his thirties, he helped buy the UFC, then a renegade cage fighting operation for $2,000,000 Now UFC. '56, he runs a global league valued at more than $15,000,000,000, six seventy five fighters under contract.

融合踢拳、摔跤和柔术的残酷混战。

A brutal mashup that includes kickboxing, wrestling, and jujitsu.

尽管问吧。你了解我的，兄弟。咱们认识这么多年了。随便问。我根本不在乎

Fire away. You know me, man. You've known me for a long time. Fire away. I don't give a

整个商业帝国更多是建立在怀特的个人魅力之上，而非传统运营手册。我们在拉斯维加斯的UFC总部见到了他。

The entire business is built more on White's force of personality than on a traditional playbook. We met him at UFC headquarters in Las Vegas.

每次看到关于UFC商业模式的报道，我真的会笑出声——根本没人真正懂这门生意。所以

Whenever I read stories about the business of UFC, I literally laugh and say, nobody knows anything about the business. So what

大家到底忽略了什么？

is everyone missing?

二十五年来，人们一直试图破解这个模式，也一直有人想要复制它。

For twenty five years, people have been trying to figure it out and people have been trying to do it.

有人告诉我这一切都始于达纳的直觉。

Someone told me it all starts with Dana's gut.

千真万确。不知道是谁告诉你的，但说对了。看看这场爆满的现场，五千名观众。

That's absolutely true. I don't know who told you that, but that's right. We got a sellout crowd here, 5,000 people.

正是他的直觉让他进入了这个行业。他最初在波士顿管理拳击手，后来在拉斯维加斯涉足新兴的综合格斗（MMA）领域。当怀特得知UFC的所有者资金耗尽时，他第一个电话打给了两位高中好友——拉斯维加斯赌场继承人弗兰克和洛伦佐·福蒂塔。

It was his gut that got him into the game. He managed boxers in Boston, then fighters in Vegas in the fledgling sport of MMA, mixed martial arts. When White caught wind UFC's owners were out of money, his first call went to two high school buddies, Frank and Lorenzo Fortita, Las Vegas casino heirs.

我说，我觉得他们要倒闭了。我们很可能买下这个赛事，而且应该这么做。

I said, I think they're going out of business. We could probably buy this thing, and we should.

福蒂塔兄弟提供了资金。怀特获得了10%的股份，但必须亲自运营这个烂摊子。当时的UFC不仅不盈利，还几乎得不到官方认可。2001年2月，怀特需要为他的首场赛事找个场地。

The Fortitas put up the money. White got 10%, but he had to run the damn thing. The UFC wasn't just unprofitable, it was largely unsanctioned. In February 2001, White needed a home for the first fight of his regime.

没有场馆愿意承接，你知道的。他们不看好这个赛事，也不喜欢它，还担心这类活动会吸引来不良观众。他

None of the venues wanted this, you know. They didn't believe in it. They didn't like it. And they were worried about the type of crowd that would show up for this type of event. He

最终在大西洋城的泰姬玛哈赌场找到了落脚处，当时的老板是位熟悉的格斗迷——唐纳德·特朗普。

found hospitality at the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City, then owned by a familiar fight fan, Donald Trump.

当特朗普品牌如日中天而UFC还默默无闻时，他看到这个赛事就说'我很乐意让它在我的赌场举办'。他从当晚第一场预赛一直观看到主赛结束。

When the Trump brand was here and the UFC brand was down there, he he saw it and said, I'd love to have this at my casino. He showed up the first prelim fight of the night and stayed till the main event was over.

他看完了整场比赛。

He watched the whole card.

看完了整场比赛。

Watched the whole card.

早期的资产负债表是什么样子的？

What do the balance sheets look like back in those early days?

我是说，情况糟透了，有一次洛伦佐打电话跟我说，达纳，我不能再这样下去了，兄弟。我真的要把家里的钱都赔光了。那天晚上我显然在想

I mean, it was so bad that at one point Lorenzo called me and said, Dana, I can't keep doing this, man. I'm literally blowing all my family's money. And obviously that night I'm thinking

我们完了。

We're done.

结束了。一切都结束了。第二天他打电话给我，原话就是这么说的。我们继续吧。

It's a wrap. This is over. He calls me the next day and literally this is what he said to me. Let's keep going.

于是他们继续了。

So they did.

你想成为一名拳击手吗？

Do you want to be a fighter?

一部真人秀系列及其剧情吸引了数百万粉丝。显然，这是一项极其巨大的成就。激烈的对决加上乔·罗根的解说让赛事持续升温。哦，他完了。他完了。

A reality series and its storylines helped draw in millions of fans. Obviously a massive, massive accomplishment. Electric matchups and Joe Rogan on the mic kept it rolling. Oh, he's done. He's done.

从一开始，怀特就贯彻了他的意志。不信可以去问那些在直播电视制作车里没按他指示行事的人。

From the beginning, White imposed his will. Just ask the guys in the live TV production truck that didn't follow his direction.

我真的从座位上站起来，走到后面一脚踹开了门。

I literally got up from my seat, went back there and kicked the door open.

他们违抗了指令？

They disobeyed the box?

对，制作车。我踹开了制作车的门。我当时基本上就是说，你们要是再敢这样，我就把你们全炒了。长话短说，最后我们把所有人都开除了。

Truck, yeah. Kicked the door open to the truck. You know, I was basically like, you ever do this again, I'm firing every one of you. Long story short, we ended up firing everybody.

很荣幸能解说您的比赛，先生。非常感谢。不客气。到2016年，这项运动在所有州都获得批准，UFC以40亿美元的价格售出，条件是怀特继续担任CEO。特朗普总统仍经常出现在UFC比赛中，但现在会以盛大方式入场。

Been an honor calling your fight, sir. Thank you very much. You're welcome. By 2016, the sports sanctioned in every state, the UFC sold for $4,000,000,000 on the condition White stay on as CEO. President Trump still routinely shows up at UFC fights, but now makes a grand entrance.

我和他的关系是这样的，当我们聚在一起共进晚餐时，我们不谈政治。

The relationship that he and I have and when we get together and I have dinner with him, we don't talk politics.

你们在聊什么？

What are talking about?

聊些男人都会聊的傻气话题，懂我意思吧？

Talk about goofy guy stuff that all guys talk about. Know what I mean?

比如哪些？

Like what?

我们聊《洛奇》电影，聊发生过的各种打斗场面。那才是真正的武士？

We talk about Rocky movies. We talk about different fights that have happened. That's a real samurai?

怀特的办公室就是个男性圣殿，终极男人洞穴。

White's office is a shrine to guy stuff, the mother of all man caves.

这件艺术品象征战争，而战争本质就是金钱游戏。

This is a piece of art that represents war. War is all about money.

你曾对我说过一个词，我还引用过——美国娘炮化。

You once used a term with me that I quoted you on, the wussification of America.

我想我说过，是的，我明白了。我们在六十分钟内搞定，对吧。

I think I said, yeah, I get it. We're on sixty minutes, yeah.

钟摆是否已经摆向了另一边？

Has the pendulum swung the other way?

我觉得有这个苗头了。

I feel like it's starting to.

笼斗向来崇尚男性气概。但怀特坚持要让比以往更多的女性关注这项运动。对于UFC粉丝群体正变得更具攻击性的说法，他显得很不悦。你不认为我们正处于某种文化运动中。

Cage fighting has always celebrated male bravado. The connection lead. But White is intent that more women than ever follow the sport. He bristles at the suggestion that UFC fandom is taking on new edge. You don't think we're there's this cultural movement.

这里有很多男性。我称之为男性圈层。你是其中的领军人物之一。

It's a lot of guys. I mean, call it the manosphere. You're one of the leaders.

你知道当你谈论了解你的粉丝群体，知道他们是谁的时候吗？

You know when you talk about knowing your fan base and knowing who they are?

他们是谁？

Who are they?

18至34岁的男性群体正在全球范围内增长。我们毫无疑问是充满男子气概的。

18 to 34 year old males and growing global. We are definitely unapologetically masculine.

这会演变成过犹不及吗？当你听到‘有害的男子气概’时。

Can this bubble over to too much? When you hear toxic masculinity.

那是什么意思？

What's that mean?

你来告诉我。

You tell me.

不。你刚说的。‘有害’的定义是什么？一个人怎么可能过于阳刚？这有可能吗？

No. You just said it. What's the definition of toxic? How can somebody be too masculine? Is that a possibility?

你会不会太有男子气概了？

Can you be too masculine?

你来告诉我。不。你觉得呢？

You tell me. No. Do you think so?

答案是绝对不行。

The answer is hell no.

在拉斯维加斯与达纳·怀特闲逛，你很可能会来到贝拉吉奥酒店这里。

Hang out with Dana White in Vegas, and odds are good you'll end up here at the Bellagio.

嗨，你们好吗？很高兴见到你们。

Hi. How are you guys? Good to Thank see you.

作为常客，他在前往私人百家乐赌桌前会享用威士忌和雪茄。

Enough of a regular, he's plied with whiskey and a cigar before heading to a private baccarat table.

在这座城市，没有什么是不可能的。

In this city, nothing is off limits.

那我们在这里赌多少？

So how much are we betting here?

40万。

400,000.

这手牌值40万美元？

The $400,000 hand?

嗯哼。因为这些胆小鬼不肯让我每手牌赢一百万。

Mhmm. Because these sissies won't give me a million a hand. A

几手牌过后，幸运女神没有站在他这边。该死的。哦。

few hands in, Fortune was not in his corner. Goddamn it. Oh.

情况不妙。我们已经亏了一百万零2.4美元。

No bueno. We're down a million $2.40.

你没听错。他亏损了120万美元。你这是在喂什么？

You heard right. He was down $1,200,000 What's this feeding in you?

我是个病态的家伙。这是我唯一能给你的解释。

I'm a sick, sick guy. That's the only explanation I can give you.

不到十分钟后

Not ten minutes later

哦，我们走吧。快点，赌注在哪？不。

Oh, let's go. Come on, where's the stakes? No.

他当时正在兑现，赢了70万美元

He was cashing out, up $700,000

我们就是这么干的。

This is how we do it.

怀特直觉的又一次胜利。他的预感在八月再次被证明价值连城，当时派拉蒙天空之舞出价超过其他竞争者，以77亿美元的价格买下UFC未来七年的美国媒体版权，使UFC跻身其他主要体育联盟之列。你还持有这家企业10%的股份吗？

Another win for White's instincts. His gut proved golden once again in August when Paramount Skydance outbid others and offered the UFC $7,700,000,000 over seven years for U. S. Media rights, putting the UFC right up there with other major sports leagues. You still have 10% of this enterprise?

我这里有个交易会让罗杰·古德尔和其他所有人都惊呼，天啊

I have a deal here that would make Roger Goodell and every other guy go, holy

什么意思？

Meaning what?

我搞定了笔超棒的交易。听着，伙计。这生意一直运作得很好。模式没出问题。你知道，我就爱听那些根本不懂自己在说什么的人发言。

I got a damn good deal. Listen, man. This business has worked just fine. The model isn't broken. You know, I love when people who have no idea what they're talking about.

一个困扰白方的问题。

One question that hounds white.

开始了。第二轮。

Here we go. Round two.

UFC的大部分巨额收入是否合理分配给选手？以汤姆·阿斯皮纳尔为例，顶级明星每场比赛可赚取数百万美元，但所谓的垫场赛选手收入低至1.2万美元。今年早些时候，UFC以3.75亿美元与选手们就反垄断集体诉讼达成和解。你们的媒体版权协议基本上翻倍了。

Does enough of the UFC's big money see its way to the fighters? Tom Aspinall. The big stars can make millions per fight. But so called bottom of the card fighters are paid as little as $12,000. Earlier this year, the UFC settled a class action antitrust lawsuit with fighters for $375,000,000 Your media rights deal basically doubled.

选手薪酬会相应增加吗？

Is fighter pay gonna increase proportionally?

我现在无法明确告诉你具体倍数——是两倍、一点五倍还是三倍。但可以肯定的是，选手薪酬会得到显著提升。

I can't sit here right now and tell you, you know, it's double, it's one and a half, it's triple. But, yeah, fighter pay is yeah, it's gonna be good.

你们支付给选手的薪酬公平吗？

Do you pay fighters a fair wage?

绝对公平。很多人并不清楚这些选手的真实收入水平。

Absolutely. People don't know how much a lot of these guys make.

如果你想知道勒布朗·詹姆斯的收入，只需敲击两下键盘。

If you wanna know what LeBron James makes, it's two keystrokes away.

我们在很多方面都与众不同，与大多数主流体育项目截然不同。

We're different in a lot of ways. We're different than most major sports.

而且这是唯一一个运动员可以畅所欲言的体育项目。另一个不同之处在于，在大多数体育项目中，运动员的冒犯性言论可能导致禁赛，但UFC并非如此。

And this is the only sport where the athletes get to say whatever they want. Another difference, in most sports, offensive speech by athletes can result in suspension. Not so the UFC.

我们不必赞同它，也不必喜欢它。

We don't have to agree with it. We don't have to like it.

有没有什么话、推文或行为，会让你们觉得‘知道吗？这必须承担后果’？

Is there anything a fighter can say, tweet, do that you say, You know what? There got to be consequences?

我是言论自由的坚定拥护者。不幸的是，可能最需要保护的言论恰恰是仇恨言论。

I'm a big believer in free speech. And unfortunately, probably the most important speech to protect is hate speech.

你并不认同取消文化。

You're not a fan of cancel culture.

不，我厌恶这种做法。双方都是。就像现在查理身上发生的那些事，这些人出去发表言论，然后你就看到有人被解雇或开除

No. I hate it. On both sides. Like all the stuff that's going on with Charlie right now, know, these people are going out and saying stuff and, you know, you're seeing people getting fired or kicked out

学校。你认为他们不应该被解雇吗？

of school. You don't think they should be fired?

我认为如果你在庆祝另一个人的死亡，那你是个令人作呕的人。但人们会犯错，会做蠢事。我不喜欢因为某人做了蠢事就试图毁掉他的生活。所以我们将会站在白宫草坪上。

I think you're a disgusting human being if you're celebrating the death of another human being, But people make mistakes, and people are gonna do dumb things. I don't like trying to destroy people's lives over doing something dumb. So we're gonna be here on the White House lawn.

怀特最关心的是明年夏天的一场格斗赛事。

Top of mind for White, a fight card next summer.

所以选手们将从椭圆形办公室走出来，进入八角笼。

So the fighters will walk out of the Oval Office to come to the Octagon.

曾经提议用赌场承办UFC的同一人，现在提供了他的后院。关于这场赛事你能透露什么？

The same man who once offered White a casino for staging the UFC, now has offered his backyard. What can you tell me about the card?

每个人都想参加这场赛事。

Everybody wants to fight on the card.

白宫南草坪上将有一场对决，终点设在林肯纪念堂。我至今仍难以置信自己会说出这些话。即便是个乐观主义者

There's gonna be a fight on the South Lawn of the White House, way ends at the Lincoln Memorial. I still can't believe I'm saying those words. Even an optimist

就像我无法相信自己亲耳听到这些。

like I can't believe I'm hearing them.

令人震撼的是，这远非怀特首次涉足权力殿堂。在特朗普总统的就职典礼上，他获得了堪比拳台边的席位。对于那些认为UFC站队的粉丝，你会如何回应？

Inspiring the awe. This will hardly mark White's first trip to the halls of power. At President Trump's inauguration, he got the equivalent of a cage side seat. What do you say to the fans who say, I feel like the UFC's taken a side?

我是美国公民。拜登曾是我的总统，特朗普也是。我就职典礼时坐在所有前总统后方。当时流传着诸如'达纳是疯狗'和'奥巴马总统'的言论。

I am an American citizen. Biden was my president. Trump is my president. I was at the inauguration, and I was sitting behind all the ex presidents. And there was this stuff going around like Dana's mad dog and President Obama.

奥巴马总统是唯一转身与我握手的前总统，他说'祝贺你取得的所有成功'。我回答'非常感谢，总统先生'。

President Obama turned around, the only President that did, and shook my hand and said congratulations on all your success. And I said thank you very much, Mr. President.

这就是人们好奇你们当时交谈内容的原因。

That's you were People wondered what you guys were talking about.

事实就是如此。我从未公开谈论过这事。如果奥巴马总统来电说'想来看比赛'，我们会说'好啊，买票就行，祝你好运'——但现任或前任美国总统要亲临现场？绝无可能。

That's what happened. I've never talked about that publicly. If president Obama called and said, hey, I'd like to come see a fight, we'd be like, yeah, buy some tickets and good luck here, whatever. No. The the sitting president or or an ex president of The United States wants to come to your event.

你以尊重相待。与此同时，

You treat them with respect. Meanwhile,

怀特的商业版图正在扩张。两周前，他在UFC旗下推广了冠军拳击赛。

White's tent is expanding. Two weeks ago, he promoted championship boxing under the UFC umbrella.

近7.1万名观众到场，这场赛事位列拳击史上票房第三高。

Almost 71,000 people, and it was the third biggest fight ever in the history of boxing.

你是说进展顺利。

You're saying it went well.

不算糟糕。今晚好好享受，玩得开心。谢谢。

It didn't suck. Enjoy yourself tonight and have a good time. Thank you.

重大赛事周末过后，多数高管可能会给员工口头表扬。

After a big fight weekend, most execs might give their staff a pat on the back.

放松一下，喝点酒抽支雪茄。晚安。

Relax, drink and smoke some cigars. Have a good night.

怀特，体育界最直率的家伙，在工作日晚上为团队办了场派对。我们四处打听你的情况，有个词被反复提及。知道是什么吗？

White, the bluntest instrument in all of sports, threw his staff a weeknight bash. We asked around about you. One word came up again and again. You know what it was?

忠诚。

Loyal.

砰。没错。也有些反对者。想猜猜这次是什么词吗？

Boom. Yeah. Got some detractors too. You want to guess this one?

什么？恶霸。恶霸？嗯，这倒说得通。

What? Bully. Bully? Yeah. That makes sense.

你似乎对此并不太在意。

You don't seem so bothered by that.

是啊，而且我喜欢这样。听着，如果你想做我的朋友，我会是你最好的朋友。若想与我为敌？我同样擅长扮演这个角色。

Yeah. And I love it. Listen, if you want to be my friend, I'm the best friend you'll ever have. You want to be my enemy? I'm really good at being that too.

现在预告下周《60分钟》节目内容：我们将聚焦罗伯·莱纳，他从绰号"肉头"的演员转型为导演，创作了多部影史经典，包括他出人意料的首部作品《摇滚万岁》——这部嘲讽摇滚乐的邪典电影赋予了新含义

Now a look ahead to next week's sixty Minutes. We'll profile Rob Reiner, who went from a character nicknamed Meathead to director of some of the most memorable movies ever, including his unlikely first film, This is Spinal Tap, a cult classic that mocked rock and gave new meaning

所有数字都标到了11。

The numbers all go to 11.

直到数字11。

To the number 11.

更响亮一点。为什么不直接把10调得更响，让10成为最高数字，再稍微调高些呢？这些卡片上是11。

One louder. Why don't you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number and make that a little louder? These cards are 11.

好的。我们开始吧。

Alright. Here we go.

我们跟随雷纳来到片场，看他执导

We joined Reiner on set as he directs

好的。敲。敲。敲。敲。

Okay. Tap. Tap. Tap. Tap.

敲。

Tap.

而四十一年的续集里还有星星。

And stars in a sequel forty one years later.

你在这儿逮住他了。

You got him right here.

你既是导演又在自导自演。知道吗？这太疯狂了。纪录片。

You're the director directing yourself. Know. It's crazy. Document.

太疯狂了，简直让我发疯。

It's crazy. It's making me nuts.

我是莱斯利·斯托尔，下周我们将带来《60分钟》的另一期节目。

I'm Leslie Stall. We'll be back next week with another edition of sixty Minutes.

眼下正发生许多事：日益加剧的经济不平等、民主面临的威胁、环境灾难、空气中弥漫着混乱的酸腐气息。我是布鲁克·格拉德斯通，WNYC《论媒体》的主持人。想要理解导致我们走到这一步的叙事背后的原因和意义，或许还有如何

There's a lot going on right now, mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On The Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how

在关口处拦截它们的方法？

to head them off at the pass?

这是关于媒体专业的。无论你在哪里收听播客，都可以听听看。

That's on the media specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

正在播放中。

Now streaming.

每个来到这家诊所的人都是一个谜。

Everyone who comes into this clinic is a mystery.

我们不知道自己在寻找什么。

We don't know what we're looking for.

他们的身体就是犯罪现场。没有症状和病史就是线索。

Their bodies are the scene of the crime. No symptoms and history are clues.

你救了自己的命。

You saved your life.

我们既是医生，也是侦探。

We're doctors and we're detectives.

说实话，我有点喜欢它。

I kinda love it if I'm being honest.

解开谜题，拯救病人。

Solve the puzzle. Save the patient.

《华生探案》。所有剧集现已在Paramount+平台上线。

Watson. All episodes now streaming on Paramount plus.