如何写一个笑话

这里是99%隐形。

This is 99% Invisible.

我是罗曼·马尔斯。

I'm Roman Mars.

如果你去年听过我们的节目，可能听过埃利奥特·卡林的声音，他是我在《权力掮客》一书系列节目中的搭档主持。

If you listened to our show last year, you may have heard the voice of Elliot Kalin, who was my cohost for a series we did on the book, the power broker.

在我看来，埃利奥特是最完美的搭档主持。

And as far as I'm concerned, Elliot was the perfect cohost.

他聪明、博学、健谈，而且非常非常幽默。

He's smart, knowledgeable, easy to talk to, and he's also very, very funny.

因为在不兼职99%隐形节目时，埃利奥特是位职业喜剧编剧。

Because when he's not moonlighting at ninety nine p I, Elliot is a professional comedy writer.

多年来，他几乎涉足了所有媒介的喜剧创作。

And over the years, he has written comedy in just about every medium there is.

他曾在乔恩·斯图尔特的《每日秀》工作十余年，最终成为该节目的首席编剧。

He worked for over a decade at The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, where he eventually became the show's head writer.

他做过单口喜剧表演。

He did stand up.

他创作漫画书。

He writes comic books.

目前，他既是原创烂片播客《The Flop House》的联合主持，也是Netflix即将推出的《捉鬼敢死队》动画剧集的主创。

And currently, he is the cohost of the original Bat Movie podcast, The Flop House, and the showrunner for the forthcoming Netflix Ghostbusters animated series.

我们想再次邀请埃利奥特上节目，因为他现在出版了自己的书——这本书主要不是关于他的职业生涯，而是关于他的创作技艺。

We wanna have Elliot back on the show because he has now written a book of his own, not so much about his career, but about his craft.

他说，当你以写笑话为生时，光有幽默感是远远不够的。

He says, when you write jokes for a living, it takes a lot more than just having a good sense of humor.

相反，你必须有一套系统方法。

Instead, you have to have a system.

这本书叫《笑话耕作：如何创作喜剧及其他无稽之谈》，他是来和我们讨论这个的。

The book is called joke farming, how to write comedy and other nonsense, and he's here to talk about it with us.

Elliot Kalin，很高兴你能再次做客。

Elliot Kalin, it is so nice to have you back.

谢谢你，Roman。

Thank you, Roman.

能回来真是太好了。

It's great to be back.

非常感谢邀请我来宣传这本书——在我们为Robert Caro赚了不少钱之后，我终于有机会靠这本书赚点钱了。

Thank you so much for having me on to promote a book that I may make some money off of after we did so much to put some money in Robert Caro's pockets.

我很感激能有这个机会。

I appreciate my getting a shot at it.

没错。

That's right.

确实如此。

That's right.

那么让我们回归基础，从最最根本的问题开始。

So so let's get, you know, down to the basics, the very, very beginning.

你究竟是怎么想到可以靠写笑话谋生的？

You know, what on earth made you think that you could write jokes for a living?

以写笑话为生的美妙之处在于，越不需要别人告诉你能否做到，就越没人能阻止你去做。

The great thing about writing jokes for a living is that less that you need someone to tell you can do it, the more that no one can tell you not to do it.

还有一点帮助是，我在九十年代初成长时看了大量电视节目，那时电视上特别流行单口喜剧。

And it helped that I grew up also watching television in the early nineteen nineties when there was still a lot of stand up comedy on television in particular.

比如，我比你年长些，那时有线电视有个阶段，突然你会看到有人站在砖墙前表演，这成了电视节目的标配。

Like, you and I I'm a little older than you, but there was this phase of, like, cable television where all of a sudden you saw somebody standing in front of a brick wall, you know, like, as part of television.

你懂吗？

You know?

如今我们生活的世界感觉喜剧比非喜剧内容还要多。

And now we live in a world where it feels like there's more comedy than not comedy.

现在回想起来觉得很复古，但当时感觉周围充斥着这么多喜剧元素，让你觉得这行当可以尝试。

So now it seems quaint, but it felt like there was so much comedy around that this was something you could do.

于是我很愚蠢地抓住了几个幸运机会，居然真的成功了，这件事至今让我 and my family 都感到非常困惑。

And so I very foolishly somehow managed to achieve the lucky breaks to succeed at doing it, which baffles me and my family to this very day.

但我好奇的是，你进入这行是因为大人们都说你天生就有幽默感。

But what I'm curious about is, like, you got into this because the adults in your life told you you're a naturally funny person.

你就是那种能让别人开箱即笑的人。

You're a person that just makes people laugh.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但若想制作《每日秀》节目，仅靠天赋可不够。

But that is not enough if you need to produce The Daily Show.

你不能只靠天生的幽默感。

You can't just be naturally funny.

这是一份工作，你培育了所谓的‘笑话耕作’这种方式，来为《每日秀》这类节目生产所需的所有笑话。

It is a job, and you cultivated this thing called joke farming as a way to produce all the jokes that you have to do for something like The Daily Show.

你能谈谈笑话耕作以及你是如何将其发展成一门学科的吗？

Can you talk about joke farming and and and how you sort of developed it as a discipline?

我觉得有趣的人和喜剧专业人士的区别在于，后者不仅能够即兴发挥、对谈话对象搞笑，更能在需要时以专业方式按需制造笑料。

I feel like the difference between being a funny person and being a comedy professional is the ability to be funny, not just spontaneously, not just for whoever you're talking to, but to be funny on demand in a professional manner when it needs to be done.

你不能坐等灵感降临。

You can't wait for inspiration to strike.

它必须成为你随时可以依赖的东西，在一定程度上你能掌控它，而不是被它掌控。

It has to be a reliable thing that you can go to when you need it, and you can command it to a certain extent rather than letting it command you.

当时我在《每日秀》工作，与许多编剧共事，起初我也是这样——凭直觉写作。

And so I was working at The Daily Show, I worked with a lot of writers, and I was like this too, where it at first, it was writing by gut.

你写下当下觉得好笑的内容，当灵感枯竭时就长时间发呆。

You're writing the thing that you think is funny in the moment, and you spend a lot of time staring into space when something isn't coming to you.

但当你在办公室，他们告诉你现在是早上9点，而剧本截止时间快到了。

But when you're in an office and they're like, you know, it's it's 09:00 and your script is due.

已经10:30了。

It's 10:30.

你不能那样耗着。

You can't do that.

所以我明白必须快速写出大量笑话。

And so I I knew I had to write a lot of jokes really fast.

我要定义一下：笑话就是任何为逗人发笑而创作的内容。

And I should define a joke is anything that is created in order to make someone laugh.

这对我来说就是个笑话。

That to me is a joke.

明白了。

Got it.

如果我那天没心情搞笑，那也没关系。

And if I'm not feeling funny that day, it doesn't matter.

因为节目还是需要笑点的。

Like, the show still needs it.

节目需要大量笑料，而且需要我在两小时内写完——如果运气好的话，通常时间更短。

And the show needs a lot of jokes, and it needs me to write them in, if I'm lucky, two hours, you know, often less than that.

于是我开始自问：当我即兴想出一个笑话时，我的大脑究竟经历了怎样的潜意识过程？

And so I started talking to myself about what is the unconscious process that my mind goes through when I am coming up with a joke off the top of my head?

我需要把它说出来。

I need to verbalize it.

我需要能够向自己清晰地表达，这样我才能将其复制为一个真实且刻意为之的过程，强迫自己去经历。

I need to be able to articulate to myself so that I can then replicate it as a real deliberate process that I can force myself to go through.

当时你是否通过这种练习来弄明白这一点，将其表达出来，还是这是你在写书时才做的？

And did you go through this exercise of figuring this out, verbalizing it at the time, or is this something that you did writing the book?

或者说，你是否...

Or is this, you know, like, did you

哦，不是的。

Oh, no.

这是我当时就做了的事情。

This is something I did at the time.

我对自己说，我需要从被灵感束缚中解脱出来，因为这基本上是我无法控制的东西。

Is I was I I said to myself, I need to free myself from being chained to inspiration, basically, which is something I can't control.

所以我想要一个流程，你可以选择任何主题，按照这个流程的步骤进行，最终就能创作出一个笑话。

And so I wanna be have a process where you can take any subject, and you can go through the steps of that process and then come out with a joke on the other end.

我想在书中传达的一点是，你不必使用我的流程，但拥有一个流程是很好的。

And one of the things that I wanna get across in the book is that you don't have to use my process, but it's good to have a process.

你的流程应该模仿你的思维方式。

And your process should mimic your way of thinking.

它应该符合你的需求、你的声音，以及你最舒适的写作方式。

It should fit your needs, your voice, how you most comfortably write.

但无论是什么流程，你都应该清楚它的步骤，这样在缺乏灵感但又需要创作笑话时，你就能做到。

But whatever that process is, it should be something that you know the steps of so that at those times when you don't have inspiration but you need to produce a joke, you can do it.

好的。

Okay.

那么我们来谈谈这个流程，以及《每日秀》的流程如何演变成你所描述的个人流程。

So let's talk about some of that processing and and how The Daily Show process morphed into your own process that you described.

出于版权和专利考虑，这是我独创的流程。

I mean, for for copyright and patent purposes, this is my own original process.

你懂吧？

You know?

我承认肯定有影响，但咱们别给他们太多功劳。

I'm sure there's I'm sure there's influences, but the, let's let's not give them too much credit.

不。

No.

我认为关于《每日秀》的工作，我还应该说清楚，我不想让自己听起来像个想出这一切的天才。

I think the thing I should say also about the the working The Daily Show, I I don't want it to sound like I'm like, I'm a genius who came up with all this stuff.

你明白吗？

You know?

这很大程度上是我在被教导和引领，我非常幸运能与这些人共事。

This was very much me being being taught and led by by the people I was very lucky to to be working with.

那么你在《每日秀》的一天开始了。

So your day at The Daily Show starts.

有很多新闻。

There's lots of news.

其中一些是严肃新闻，要想办法如何把它们变成喜剧素材。

Some of it is hard news to figure out how to make comedy about.

有些可能超级容易改编成喜剧。

Some of it maybe is super easy to make comedy about.

有些确实非常简单。

Some of it's very easy.

有一次某个地方建了个体育场，从空中看像女性生殖器。

There was one time there was a there was a stadium that got built somewhere where and from above, looked like a vagina.

这种题材写段子就特别容易。

That was a very easy one to write jokes about.

是啊。

Yeah.

那你能带我们走一遍《每日秀》的段子创作流程吗？用节目里的一个笑话举例。

And so could you take us through the joke farming process with a joke from The Daily Show?

好的。

Sure.

那么我首先要考虑的是，这个笑话是谁在讲？

So the first thing I would have to do is consider who is telling this joke?

讲笑话的人是谁，这是谁的声音？

Who is the joke teller whose voice is it?

就《每日秀》而言，我在那里的时候应该是乔恩·斯图尔特。

Which in the case of The Daily Show when I was there would have been Jon Stewart.

对。

Right.

他是这个节目的主持人。

He's the host of the show.

他会讲所有的笑话。

He's gonna say all the jokes.

然后我会试着问自己，这个笑话的意义是什么？

Then I would try to say to myself, what is the point of this joke?

所谓意义，我指的是这个笑话想传达什么信息？

And by point, I mean, what is the message I'm trying to get across in this joke?

它的含义是什么？

What's the meaning of it?

不一定是指它好笑的部分。

Not necessarily the funny thing about it.

事实上，通常这是笑话中最不好笑的部分。

In fact, often it's the least funny part of the joke.

是的。

Yeah.

举个例子，我一直为此感到非常自豪——甚至自豪到别人会说太过头了——这是我在2015年为《每日秀》写的一个笑话。

And so an example that I was always very proud of myself too much, so much people would say, is a joke that I wrote for The Daily Show in 2015.

当时法国发生了一起恐怖袭击，美国派出了时任国务卿约翰·克里进行友好访问。

There had been a terrorist attack in France, and The United States sent the then secretary of state John Kerry on a goodwill visit.

国务卿约翰·克里今早在巴黎展开魅力攻势。

Secretary of state John Kerry is on a charm offensive this morning in Paris.

而约翰·克里当时的特点就是出了名的无聊和刻板。

And the thing about John Kerry is at the time, he was famous for being very boring and stiff.

说话慢吞吞的，就像一尊人形雕像。

Just a slow talking, like a statue of a man.

也许他更像雕像而非人类。

May he's more statue than man.

我想直接对巴黎及全法国的人民说，今天每一位美国人都与你们站在一起，既是为了对抗极端主义的事业，也是为了极端分子所恐惧的事业。

I would like to say directly to the people of Paris and of all of France that each and every American stands with you today, both to the cause of confronting extremism and in the cause which the extremists fear so much.

而你脑海中闪过的第一个念头是：这就是你们派去进行友好访问的人选。

And the first point that jumps into your head is this is the guy you're sending on a goodwill visit.

这个非常无聊且毫无魅力的人。

This guy who is very boring and very unpersonable.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这似乎非常明显。

But that seemed very obvious.

除了说约翰·克里很无趣这种显而易见的话题——在《每日秀》里，关于他无聊，我们？

There had to be something less obvious than John Kerry is boring, which at this point at the Daily Show, I think we had told roughly 700,000 jokes about John Kerry being

对。 我们？

Right.

对。 我们？

Right.

于是我在翻阅研究人员和片段制片人提供的素材时，发现了这段沃尔夫·布利策的片段，他在里面提醒我们约翰·克里是个超级亲法派。

So in looking through the material that we had been given by the researchers and segment producers for this piece, I found this Wolf Blitzer clip where he's reminding us that John Kerry is this enormous Francophile.

他热爱法国。

He loves France.

约翰·克里会说法语，热爱法国，还在法国留过学。

John Kerry speaks French, loves France, studied in France.

所以我决定用这个笑话的要点是：世界上最古板、最不酷的男人爱上了世界上最性感国家的一切。

So the point I decided to go with for this joke is the world's stiffest, least kind of cool man loves everything about the world's sexiest country.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

但这正是关键所在。

But that's a point.

如果我那样说的话，就不好笑了。

It's not a if I say it like that, it's not funny.

那可不是开玩笑的。

That's not a joke.

那简直不行

That's just No.

这不是开玩笑的

It's not a joke.

这仅仅是

It's just

我在陈述一个事实。

me stating a true fact.

所以我必须构思一个前提来绕过它。

And so I have to develop a premise to go around it.

而前提本质上就是你讲这个笑话时要用的小故事，它要接近重点，但又不能太直接，这样观众就能在脑海中稍作联想并理解笑点。

And a premise is essentially what is the little story that you're gonna tell this joke through that gets close to the point, but not so close that you're just saying it so that the audience can make a little leap in their minds and they can get it.

就像你在设置一个场景，让他们自己领悟要点，而不需要你直接告诉他们

Like you're setting up a scenario so they will arrive to the point without you telling them the point of

正是如此。

the Exactly.

我喜欢把前提想象成一种假设情景。

And one way I like to think about premises is kind of like what if scenarios.

所以我对自己说，如果约翰·克里如此热爱法国的一切，以至于只要带有'法国'这个词的东西他都喜欢呢？

And so I said to myself, what if John Kerry loves French things so much that as long as the word French is in there, he loves it.

明白了。

Got it.

法式炸薯条、法式接吻、法国圆号。

French fries, French kissing, French French horns.

这还包含了与我报道内容无关的第二点，但我觉得挺有趣的，就是明明不是法国的东西，我们却称之为法式。

And it bakes in the second point that is unrelated to the story that I was covering, but it's kind of a funny point still to me, which is there's all this stuff that's not French, but we call it French.

没错。

Right.

这确实很有趣。

Which is really fun.

好的。

Okay.

所以我有了这个前提。

So I've got the premise.

约翰·克里喜欢所有名称带'法式'的东西。

John Kerry loves everything with French in the name.

现在我需要构建结构。

Now I need structure.

结构实际上就是笑话的机械构造。

And structure is literally the mechanical construction of the joke.

如何按顺序逐步释放每条信息。

How you release each piece of information one step after another in order.

你要引导观众走到那个临界点，让他们自己完成跳跃，最终落入笑点中。

So you walk the audience right up to the very edge of the point where they can then make the leap on their own, and they land in the joke.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

所以在写这个约翰·克里笑话时，我开始模仿沃尔夫·利斯特的节奏。

So in writing this John Kerry joke, I started riffing on Wolf Lister's cadence.

约翰·克里会说法语，热爱法国，曾在法国学习。

John Kerry speaks French, loves France, studied in France.

我想延续这种节奏感，用类似列举的方式，但让约翰以问答形式呈现。

I wanted to continue that cadence in a kind of a list, but where John makes it a question answer thing.

而不是直接说他喜欢法式薯条。

Instead of saying, he loves French fries.

他喜欢法国斗牛犬。

He loves French bulldogs.

相反，应该说'最喜欢的薯条类型'。

Instead, it's favorite type of fries.

最喜欢的薯条类型？

Favorite type of fries?

然后观众会接'法式'，他就说'法式'。

And the audience fills in French, and he says, French.

最喜欢的穆巴克类型？

Favorite type of moobuck?

观众会接'法式'。

Audience fills in French.

法式。

French.

构思笑话时，要运用所谓的'递进'技巧。

And when you're structuring a joke, wanna do what's called heightening.

你需要从最不搞笑、最不夸张的部分开始，逐步升级到最夸张的效果。

You wanna escalate it from the kinda least funny one, the least exaggerated one, to the most exaggerated one.

然后你转向更戏剧性或更愚蠢的例子。

And then you move on to more dramatic examples or sillier examples.

最喜欢的女仆类型，法国的。

Favorite kind of maid, French.

所以我现在已经确立了这个模式。

And so I've now established the pattern.

法国的。

French.

法国的。

French.

法国的。

French.

这可以永远持续下去。

It could go on forever.

法国的东西太多了。

There's so many French things.

但最后，我想颠覆那个模式。

But then at the end, I wanna subvert that pattern.

我想打破它。

I wanna disrupt it.

对吧。

Right.

所以我在想，如果有个问题的答案可能是法国的，但结果却不是法国的呢？

And so I was like, what if there's something where the answer could be French, but then it isn't French?

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

有一种芥末叫French's芥末。

And so there's a kind of mustard called French's mustard.

而约翰·克里当时众所周知娶了亨氏调味品帝国的继承人之一。

And John Kerry, at the time famously, was married to one of the heirs of the Heinz condiment fortune.

所以我会说

So I could say

最喜欢的芥末？

Favorite mustard?

观众期待的回答是French's。

And the audience expects the answer to be French.

然后约翰会说亨氏。

And then John's gonna say Heinz.

得了吧。

Come on.

他不会为了芥末危及自己的婚姻。

He's not gonna jeopardize his marriage over mustard.

所以你把这个专门调侃约翰·克里的笑话

And so you've taken a joke that's specifically about John Kerry.

你把话题引向了许多被称为法国的事物，然后又绕回来变成一个只有约翰·克里才能get的笑话，因为只有约翰·克里已婚

You've made it about there are lot of things called French, and then you've taken it back around to being a joke that only works for John Kerry because only John Kerry is married

转向威尔·海因斯。

to to Will a Hines.

海因斯。

Hines.

好吧。

Okay.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得琢磨这个段子的过程，可能比描述它花费的时间还要短。

And I think the process of working on that took probably less time than it took to describe it.

你懂吗？

You know?

因为当时我就想，我正按照这些步骤进行，这样设计笑话比我干坐着凭空想点子要快得多。

Because I was like, here are the steps that I'm going through, and I could design this joke so much faster than I would have otherwise if I was just sitting here trying to think of something to come out of the blue.

明白吗？

You know?

不过除了《每日秀》，我知道你书里还有很多来自更广泛喜剧界的案例。

So but outside of The Daily Show, I know your book has a lot of examples from, you know, from the world of comedy at large.

还有哪些利用结构颠覆预期的好例子？

Where what are other good examples of of somebody using structure to subvert expectation?

我想大多数人都熟悉所谓的'铺垫-笑点'结构。

So most people are familiar, I think, with the kind of structure that you would call setup punchline.

我在书中引用的一个例子是瑞塔·拉德纳的笑话，我认为她是有史以来最杰出的单口喜剧演员之一。

And in the one of the examples I use in the book is a joke by Rita Rudner, who I think is one of the greatest stand ups of all time.

完全同意。

Totally.

我是看着她的表演长大的。

I grew up with her.

她是那个时代的佼佼者之一

She was one of the standouts of

八十年代。

the eighties.

她太棒了。

She's amazing.

是啊。

Yeah.

她最早的一个段子是这么说的

And one of her first jokes, she says

对我来说要孩子还早得很。

It's gonna be a long time for me for children.

我现在单身。

I'm very single.

我曾和某人交往了几年，但后来分手了。

I was going with someone for a few years, but we broke up.

就是那种常见的事情之一。

It's one of the it's one of those things.

他想结婚，而我不想和他结婚。

He wanted to get married, and I didn't want him to.

但这里的结构是：先给出一个信息，然后我用笑点稍微颠覆它。

But that structure of here's a piece of information, and now I'm going to subvert it slightly with the punchline.

而且我不会说'我和男朋友分手了'。

And I'm not gonna say, I broke with my boyfriend.

他想结婚，但最后娶了另一个女朋友。

He wanted to get married, but he married his other girlfriend.

这么说就一点都不好笑。

Like, that's that's not a funny way to say it.

但你要通过提供一个既合乎逻辑又出乎观众意料的答案来制造惊喜。

But you're surprising the audience by providing an answer that is ideally logical, but not in the way that the audience originally thought it was going to be.

我觉得这个笑话很棒，因为颠覆预期的句子是'我不想和他结婚'。

I think it's an amazing joke because the sentence that that subverts expectations, I didn't want him to.

这个笑话的全部含义都落在'他'这个字上。

All the meaning of the joke relies on the word him.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这是个绝妙的笑话，因为这么多含义都浓缩在那个词里。

And I would say it is a brilliant joke to me because so much of it is packed in that word.

用越少的词讲笑话，提供越少的细节，通常效果越好。

And the fewer number of words that you can use to deliver a joke, the fewer number of details you can provide, usually the better.

你不想让观众感到困惑。

You don't wanna confuse the audience.

用你能想到的最清晰、最精确的词语。

And with the clearest, most precise word that you can use.

观众可能需要片刻来理解并自行领悟，但正是那一刻笑话才真正鲜活起来，那个美妙的瞬间。

And so there might be that moment where the audience takes a short second to understand it and to complete it for themself, but that's the that's the moment where the joke lives, that beautiful moment there.

你在书中提到，在创作笑话的过程中，除了要点、前提和结构外，还有其他因素需要考虑。

In the book, you say that in your joke writing process, there's other elements to a joke that you like to consider beyond the point, the premise, and structure.

那么当你确定了核心逻辑后，下一步是什么？

So after you've figured out what that core logic, what comes next?

接下来就进入我称之为‘微调笑话’的阶段，你要调整它的语气，考虑你想在其中注入怎样的情感暗示。

So then we get into this into what I would call the fiddling with the joke where where you work on the tone of it, kind of like what emotional implications you're trying to get into it.

你是以真诚还是不真诚的态度在说？

Are you speaking with sincerity or insincerity?

你为这个笑话带来了什么程度的讽刺？

What level of irony are you bringing to this?

对。

Yeah.

你对听众或笑话对象带着什么程度的攻击性？

What level of aggression towards the audience or towards the subject of the joke are you bringing?

这就像在婚礼上致辞，你既要平衡对新婚夫妇的真挚感情，又要把握好对他们善意的调侃。

And it's kind of like when you're speaking at a wedding where you're trying to balance the sincerity of your feelings towards the couple that are getting married with the insincerity of the kind of ribbing that you're doing of them.

那么举个例子说明你在讲笑话时如何把控语气。

So give give me an example of tone and tone management when you're doing a joke.

比如唐·里克斯——对于年轻听众可能不知道他是谁。

So Don Rickles, for instance, who Don Rickles for the for the younger members of the listenership, if they don't know.

唐·里克斯是侮辱喜剧的大师，他的表演如此夸张地充满敌意，以至于你无法将其视为真正的恶意。

Don Rickles was the master of insult comedy that was just so aggressively over the top hostile that you could not take it seriously as real actual hostility.

我说得对吗？

Am I right?

他的他的妻子和你的妻子同名同姓？

His his wife and your wife have the same same name?

弗兰克的妻子和你的妻子？

Frank's wife and your wife?

你是干什么的，侦探吗？

What are you, a detective?

是啊。

Yeah.

我是个侦探。

I'm a detective.

那那是没错。

That's that's right.

我是说，你总能冒出这些评论。

I mean, you come up with these remarks.

她们同名。

They have the same name.

有时候。

Sometimes.

现在我

Now I

你 你在那里。

you you there.

丹泽尔曾是

Denzel was

那天有药可治。

there's medication for that day.

然而有时候你越是面无表情，就像史蒂文·赖特那样的喜剧演员——我认为他是大师级人物。

Whereas sometimes the more deadpan you are, like with a comedian like Steven Wright, who's who I think is a master.

但他的段子太过冷面，让你觉得显然他并没有真的做过那些事。

But his stuff is so deadpan that you're like, well, obviously, he didn't really do these things.

我今天打错电话了。

I called the wrong number today.

我说，你好。

I said, hello.

乔伊在吗？

Is Joey there?

一个女人接了电话。

And a woman answered.

她说，在的。

She said, yes.

他在。

He is.

我说，能请他接电话吗？

I said, can I speak to him, please?

她说，不行。

She said, no.

他现在不方便说话。

He can't talk right now.

他才两个月大。

He's only two months old.

我说，好吧。

I said, alright.

我会等。

I'll wait.

我是说，讲笑话的人或许没有笑话本身重要，但也差不多重要。

I mean, who is telling the joke is it's maybe not as important as the joke itself, but it's, like, up there.

讲笑话的人是观众获取关于笑话的第一条信息。

It's who is telling the joke is the first piece of information that the audience gets about the joke.

这个人是谁？

Who is this person?

我该如何理解他们带入的视角？

What do I assume their perspective that they're bringing to it is?

在书中，我讨论了脱口秀人设如何帮助构建笑话的语境基调。

And in the book, I talk about kind of, like, stand up persona and how it can help become the context for the tone of a joke.

我在书中用查理·希尔举例——他是奥奈达部落成员，也是位伟大的喜剧演员。

And an example of this that I use in the book is Charlie Hill, who is a who another great comic, who is a member of the Oneida Nation.

你们很多白人以前从没见过印第安人表演单口喜剧吧。

You know, a lot of you white people never seen an Indian do stand up comedy before.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像，长久以来，你可能以为印第安人根本没有幽默感。

Like, for so long, you probably thought that Indians never had a sense of humor.

你知道吗？

You know?

我们也从没觉得你们有多好笑。

We never thought you were too funny either.

那是在七十年代的一个脱口秀上，他们问他小时候玩不玩牛仔与印第安人的游戏——我真希望这是他设的套，而不是他们真的问出这种问题。

It was on a talk show in the seventies, and they asked him if he ever played cowboy Indians, which is I wish I hope was a setup that he provided for them and not a not an actual question that they were asking him.

没错。

Right.

然后他说：不玩。

And he said, no.

我们从不玩牛仔与印第安人，但我们玩过纳粹与犹太人。

We never played cowboys and Indians, but we did play Nazis and Jews.

游戏规则都一样。

The rules are the same.

这个讽刺太狠了——但我超爱这个笑话。

And that's a harsh I love that joke.

这是个很尖锐的笑话。

That's a hard joke.

但当它出自一位带着原住民视角的印第安人之口时，就具有特殊意义了。

But they but it's a coming from someone who is bringing the perspective of a Native American and indigenous person, it means a certain thing.

是的。

Yeah.

这并不是一个拿纳粹屠杀犹太人当笑料的玩笑。

It is not a joke that means to make a joke about the ideas of Nazis killing Jews.

而是通过重构这个童年游戏，将种族灭绝轻描淡写的行为，置于观众能认知的另一场种族灭绝背景下重新诠释。

It is instead about reframing this this childhood game that makes light of genocide in the light of another genocide that the audience recognizes.

对。

Right.

但要用有趣的方式，当作一个有趣的玩笑。

But in a funny way, as as a funny joke.

没错。

Yeah.

而关键在于这是查理·希尔说的，我们明白他的意图。

And the fact that it's coming from Charlie Hill means we understand what he's getting at.

这就引出了观众——他们如同笑话的完成体，本质上是最关键的最后环节

And this this leads us to the audience, which is like the completion of the joke, which is essentially, like, the the last part and the most important part

可惜这偏偏是最重要的部分

of It's the most important unfortunately, it's the most important part.

就像...没人能独自讲笑话

And for like, nobody you can't tell a joke on your own.

观众提供了笑话最重要的部分——那个发笑的人

Like, the the audience provides the most important part of the joke, which is the person laughing at the joke.

这种'作品是否有趣最终不由你决定'的想法，带着某种令人沮丧的谦卑感。

And there's something very depressingly humbling about the idea that, like, you don't get to decide ultimately if your work is funny or not.

就像，观众有决定权。

Like, the audience gets to decide.

如果他们没笑，那你就让他们失望了。

And if they're not laughing, then you've you've failed them.

但同时，观众其实是想要笑的。

But then also, the audience wants to laugh.

是啊。

Yeah.

我做单口喜剧时领悟到很重要的一点：观众不是来生我气的。

And that was such a big thing for me when I was performing stand up, was remembering the audience is not there to get mad at me.

他们不是在挑战我。

They're they're not challenging me.

可能有点较劲，但他们希望表演者成功，因为这样他们更开心。

They might be a little bit, but they want the joke writer or the performer to succeed because it's more fun for them.

没错。

Yeah.

你可以稍微挑战他们的笑点，但不能过度到故意冷场。

And you wanna succeed by maybe challenging what they're gonna laugh at a little bit, but not challenging it so much that you're deliberately bombing.

有些喜剧演员就喜欢冷场。

There's some comedians who love to bomb.

对喜剧演员来说，看同行冷场其实很有趣——因为这时你变成了观众。

It's very fun if you're a comedian to watch another comedian bomb, but only because then you become the audience.

观众成了笑料的一部分，而你作为观众在看'观众听不懂笑话'这个笑话。

The audience becomes the punchline to the joke, and you become the audience of watching the joke of an audience not getting a joke.

这就是为什么我年轻时对安迪·考夫曼的喜剧感到非常沮丧，因为他既是讲笑话的人，又是观众。

And that's why when I was young, I kind of was very frustrated with Andy Kaufman's comedy Because it was like, Andy Kaufman is both the joke teller and the audience.

对他来说，关键在于他对观众困惑的反应或享受。

Like, he it is all about his reaction or his enjoyment of the audience's confusion.

有件事我不明白。

I don't understand one thing.

不。

No.

说真的。

Seriously.

为什么我讲某些笑话时大家都在喝倒彩。

Why everyone is going boo on like the joke when I told some of the jokes.

而当我不想让你们笑的时候，你们却笑了。

And then when I don't want you to laugh, you're laughing.

就像现在，我完全搞不懂。

Like right now, I don't understand.

现在我有点喜欢这样了。

Now I kinda like it.

现在我觉得这挺有趣的，因为它让观众成为表演素材不可或缺的部分。

Now I think it now think it's kinda funny because it makes the audience such an integral part of of that material.

我本来准备了其他节目，但我觉得不该表演了。

I had other stuff I was gonna do for you, but I don't think I should.

所以我想说谢谢，其实你们不必这么说的，真的。

So I just wanna say thank you, and, you know, I'm I'm just trying to do don't have you don't have to say that, really.

好吗？

Okay?

我只是尽力找点乐子，如果你不喜欢，那就算了。

I'm just trying to do my best to have some fun, and if you don't like it, that's it.

好的。

Okay.

非常感谢，晚安。

Thank you very much, and good night.

我是说，安迪·考夫曼之所以能成功，部分原因在于你能看到那种反喜剧的表演——看起来像是只为他自己服务的。

I mean, one of the reasons why Andy Kaufman ends up working is you could see the sort of anti comedy stuff where it seems like it's just for his own benefit.

但在完全不同的表演中，你又能看出他有多搞笑，以及他如何能在想要的时候吸引观众。

But in a totally another act, you could see just how funny he is and bringing the people in when he wants to.

安迪·考夫曼所有段子的第一批观众，他们就像诺曼底登陆的第一波士兵，被无情扫射毫无机会——这样下一批观众才能理解笑点并笑出来。

The the the first audience for all of Andy Kaufman's bits, they they are the the first wave at d day that get mowed down and never have a chance because so that the next wave of audience members can understand it and laugh at the joke.

你明白吗？

You know?