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我开始了第三次项目推介，感觉进行得相当顺利。
I get into my third pitch, and it goes pretty well, I feel like.
我稍作停顿，等待投资者的反应。
And I kinda pause and wait for the, you know, investor's reaction.
他基本上就是说，这绝对是我听过最糟糕的点子。
He basically says, this has got to be the worst idea I've ever heard.
你不仅要面对那些巨头企业，他们还掌握着终极分销渠道。
Not only are you going up against massive incumbents, they have ultimate distribution.
你根本不可能与他们竞争。
There is no way you're going to compete against them.
我还没来得及说话，他就挂断了。
Before I could say anything, he hangs up.
他直接退出了Zoom会议。
He just dropped off the Zoom call.
我给了自己一点时间去消化他的话，试图从中提炼出一些事实——没错，进入这个市场将会异常艰难。
I kind of gave myself just a chance to internalize what he was saying, try to, like, pull out some of the truth in that, which is, yeah, going into this market is going to be incredibly hard.
我们必须从一开始就考虑增长问题。
We need to think about growth from the very beginning.
如果我们想要成功，产品增长必须成为我们战略的核心要素。
And if we have any chance of succeeding, product growth, those are gonna be intertwined in our strategy.
制作演示文稿不该像在跟格式搏斗。
Building a presentation shouldn't feel like wrestling with formatting.
它应该像在自言自语般自然。
It should feel like thinking out loud.
今天你将听到Gamma联合创始人兼CEO Grant Lee的分享——如何打造AI领域最成功的突围案例：从遭遇残酷的提案拒绝，到在创纪录时间内获得1亿用户并实现盈利。
Today, you'll hear from Grant Lee, co founder and CEO of Gamma, on building one of AI's breakout success stories, from a brutal pitch rejection to a 100,000,000 users and profitability in record time.
我们探讨了为何'宁可不同也不要更好'的理念让他们打破了四十年前PowerPoint建立的16:9比例牢笼；如何在优化用户体验最初30秒后，从八个月6万注册量暴涨至每日5万；以及为何用极度缓慢的招聘节奏，同时由创始人亲自对接每个影响者，最终形成了他们的口碑增长飞轮。
We discussed why better to be different than better drove them to break the 16 by nine prison that PowerPoint built forty years ago, how they went from 60,000 sign ups in eight months to 50,000 per day after nailing the first thirty seconds of user experience, and why hiring painfully slowly while personally onboarding every influencer created their word-of-mouth flywheel.
此外，他们通过战略性的步骤顺序，先赢得专业用户的热爱再进军企业市场，以及味觉体验不仅关乎视觉，而是整个餐厅体验的全方位呈现。
Plus, the strategic sequencing that let them build prosumer love before attacking enterprise, and how taste isn't just visual, it's the entire restaurant experience.
让我们深入探讨这个话题。
Let's get into it.
感谢你的到来，格兰特。
Thank you for coming, Grant.
谢谢邀请。
Thanks for having me.
你联合创立并领导着当前最成功的人工智能应用之一。
You cofounded and are leading one of the most successful AI applications right now.
你们已经突破了1亿美元的年度经常性收入。
You've crossed a 100,000,000 of ARR.
用户数量正接近1亿大关。
You're approaching a 100,000,000 users.
我们非常期待与你讨论近期所有产品发布、企业市场扩张，或许还能回溯Gamma作为一家公司的整个构建历程。
We are so stoked to talk to you about all of your recent product launches, expanding in the enterprise, and maybe taking a step back just the process of building Gamma itself as a company.
或许我们可以从这个角度开始，将时间倒转回五年前——2020年你和联合创始人创立Gamma的时候。
Maybe to just kick that off on that note, we'll rewind time and bring it back five years ago when you and your cofounders started Gamma in 2020.
是的。
Yep.
显然此后经历了无数曲折转折，感觉我们大概经历了三个宏观周期和两个技术周期。
There's obviously been a ton of twists and turns since then, and it feels like we've been in maybe three macro cycles, two technology cycles.
变化很大。
Lot has changed.
一切都发生了巨大变化。
A lot has changed.
确实如此。
Exactly.
你能详细说说这个过程是怎样的吗？一路上有哪些重大突破？
Can you share a little bit more about what that process has been like and what were some of the big unlocks along the way?
完全同意。
Totally.
讲述最初的融资故事总是很有趣，因为当时世界正处于疫情高峰期，2020年大部分融资都是通过Zoom完成的。
It's always fun to tell the initial fundraising story because the world was just such a different place where peak pandemic This is the 2020 where most of fundraising was just done over Zoom.
所以我早期试图接触的很多投资人，我都没见过面。
So a lot of the investors I was trying to pitch early on, I never met in person.
实际上我当时住在伦敦。
I was actually living in London at the time.
身处世界不同时区，还要协调这些融资会议。
So different part of the world, trying to line up these pitches.
我不得不在半夜进行这些会议。
I'd have to do so in the middle of the night.
我还有两个年幼的孩子。
I also have two little kids.
对我来说，只能在孩子们睡着后，在我们那个狭小的公寓里进行。
And so for me, it was after kids go to sleep, we had a pretty modest flat.
我会找个角落，就在小厨房和洗衣房之间的小空间里，设置一个假的Zoom背景让人看不出我在哪，还要尽量轻声说话以免吵醒孩子。
So I would find a little corner, was actually tucked between the kitchenette and the laundry room, little space, put up a fake Zoom background so nobody could tell where I was, and tried to talk somewhat softly so that don't wake up the kids.
开始融资路演的第一周，就是连续不断地安排会议。
And so starting the pitch, was like, okay, first week, it was just lining back to back pitches.
第一天进行到第三场路演时，感觉还挺顺利，二十分钟过去后心想：嘿，这还不算太糟。
And the first day, I get into my third pitch, and it goes pretty well, I feel like, going through a twenty minutes in, feeling like, Hey, this is not too bad.
我稍作停顿，等待投资人的反应。
And I kind of pause and wait for the investor's reaction.
结果他直接说：这绝对是我听过最糟糕的主意。
And he basically says, This has got to be the worst idea I've ever heard.
他说，你不仅要面对那些巨头企业，他们还拥有终极的分销渠道。
And he said, Not only are you going up against massive incumbents, they have ultimate distribution.
你根本不可能与他们竞争。
There is no way you're going to compete against them.
于是我心里想，好吧，这完全出乎我的意料。
And so in my head, was like, Well, that wasn't what I was expecting.
我得想出一个绝佳的反驳理由。
And I got to think of a really good rebuttal.
还没等我开口，他就挂断了电话。
And before I could say anything, he hangs up.
我直接退出了Zoom会议。
I just dropped off the Zoom call.
我当时就想，哇，好吧。
And so I'm like, Wow, okay.
那一刻的真实感受是，你脑子里会忍不住想：万一他是对的呢？
This feeling of really this moment, you're kind of thinking in your head, what if he's right?
万一他说的全是对的怎么办？
What if he's right about all this?
也许这个想法真的很蠢。
Maybe this is a dumb idea.
于是你开始让这些疑虑慢慢侵蚀你的思想。
And so you kind of have those doubts kind of creeping up into your head.
我其实没时间自怨自艾，因为还要准备下一场路演。
I didn't really have much time to kind of get down on myself because I had to prep for the next pitch.
在那个瞬间，我给了自己一个机会去消化他的话，试图从中提炼出一些真相——没错，进入这个市场将会异常艰难。
And so in that moment, I kind of gave myself just a chance to internalize what he was saying, try to pull out some of the truth in that, which is, yeah, going into this market is going to be incredibly hard.
我们必须从一开始就考虑增长问题。
We need to think about growth from the very beginning.
如果我们想要成功，产品增长必须与我们的战略紧密结合。
And if we have any chance of succeeding, product growth, those are going be intertwined in our strategy.
因此，尽管听着难受，我还是把这话记在心里——当然，或许本可以用更委婉的方式表达。
And so, took that to heart, even though it was painful to hear, and certainly maybe there could have been a kinder way to say those words.
我依然坚持了下来，最终幸运地筹到了资金。
I still went back and eventually, fortunately, we were able to raise money.
五年后的今天，我们已取得不错的进展。
Five years in, we're making some good progress.
哇。
Wow.
我得说进展非常不错。
I'll say good progress.
是啊。
Yeah.
这太棒了。
That's amazing.
你们创立Gamma时还是前AI时代。
And it was pre AI when you started Gamma.
对吧？
Is that right?
前AI时代，但我们一直以来的核心精神都是让人人能轻松创作内容。
Pre AI, I think the spirit of what we wanna do all along was to make it easy, effortless for anybody to create content.
快速高效的本质始终存在，而AI恰好在几年后成为天赐礼物，极大加速了整个进程。
So the nature of being fast and the speed aspect was always there, but AI happened to be a great gift a few years into the journey that really just expedited the entire process there.
确实。
Yeah.
有件事我很好奇，因为1亿用户量实在太惊人了。
One of the things I've been curious about because a 100,000,000 users is like a lot of users.
有些人可能了解并喜爱AI工具，而有些人则不然。
And some of them might know and love AI tools, and some of them might not.
是的。
Yep.
随着AI的发展，你如何看待在产品中展现多少AI功能的问题？
As AI has evolved, how do you think about how much AI you expose in the product?
比如，甚至让用户选择自己的图像模型，你会把这个功能设计得多简单或复杂？
Like, even giving users the choice to pick their own image model, like how easy or complex do you make that?
完全同意，而且这是个不断变化的目标。
Totally, yeah, and it's a moving target.
我在斯坦福时很幸运有位导师大卫·凯利，他是IDEO的创始人。
I was at Sanford, was lucky enough to have a mentor, David Kelly, who was the founder of IDEO.
他早期的故事是，他们发明了第一只苹果鼠标。
Mean his story early on, they invented the first Apple mouse.
当时施乐已经有一款鼠标了。
And so at the time, Xerox already had a mouse.
那是个三键鼠标，非常昂贵，不是为大众消费设计的。
It was a three button mouse, very, very expensive, wasn't built for mass consumption.
对于技术高手来说，他们知道如何操作。
And so for someone that's super technical, they knew how to navigate.
现在听起来很傻，连三个按钮都让人望而生畏。
It sounds silly, now even three buttons intimidating.
所以大卫·凯利的理念始终是：你必须对用户所处阶段保持高度同理心。
So David Kelley's approach was always, You need to be super empathetic for where users are.
于是他们实际上发明了单键鼠标。
And so they actually invented the one button mouse.
超级简单，任何人都能按一个按钮。
Super easy, anybody can click one button.
我认为它会随着时间的推移而改变。
And I think it's gonna change over time.
所以我认为我们现在可能正处于AI的'一键时代'，绝大多数人仍在试图弄清楚如何使用这个东西。
So I think we're right now maybe in the one button era of AI, where the vast majority of people, they're still trying to figure out how do we even use this thing.
它很强大，但也令人望而生畏。
It's powerful, but intimidating.
因此我们需要认识到这一点。
And so we need to recognize that.
我觉得人们很容易对此嗤之以鼻，说什么聊天提示框不是终极形态。
I think it's easy to kind of throw shade at, Oh, a chat prompt box is not the ultimate form factor.
这话可能对也可能不对，但聊天界面确实非常直观且熟悉。
That may or may not be true, but chat is also very accessible and familiar.
所以我认为我们自己也正在努力摸索。
And so I think we're trying to navigate that ourselves.
什么是正确的切入点？
What is the right entry point?
很大程度上需要花时间观察用户如何使用Gamma，然后看他们在哪里碰壁或远未达到预期，并在此过程中尝试改进。
A lot of it is spending time observing users, how they use Gamma, and then seeing where they just run into a wall or fall really short of expectations and try to fix things along the way.
是的。
Yeah.
某种程度上让我们惊讶的是，不仅做好AI演示有多难，而且市面上的产品差异有多大。
I think one thing that surprised us in a sense was just how not only how hard it is to get AI presentations right, but also how different the products are on the market.
没错。
Yeah.
奥利维亚和我实际上试用了20多个产品，结果天差地别。
Olivia and I have literally tried 20 plus players out there, and the results are night and day.
对。
Yep.
能否详细说说这个项目难点在哪里，以及你们做对了哪些方面？
Can you share more about what is so hard about it and what you guys got right?
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，在过去十年里，甚至在人工智能时代之前，就有过多次尝试。
I mean, I think, you know, there's been multiple attempts just throughout the past decade, even pre AI.
对吧？
Right?
市面上已经有一大堆失败的演示工具了。
There's a graveyard of presentation tools out there.
我认为那些AI时代之前的工具陷入了一个误区，就是试图在传统幻灯片软件上做渐进式改进。
I think the ones that are pre AI got stuck in a different trap, which is they tried to be incrementally better slideware.
它们还是沿用16:9的格式，用户仍然需要自己处理版式设计、图层管理和元素缩放这些事。
So, they still do the 16 by nine thing, and you still have this canvas where you, as the end user, have to figure out the layouts, the layers, resizing things.
对普通人来说，即使你在某个维度上强10倍，PowerPoint可是用四十年时间堆砌了所有可能的功能。
And for the average person, even if you're 10x better on one dimension, PowerPoint's had forty years to add every single piece of functionality possible.
所以到底要怎么竞争？
And so how do you ultimately compete?
当然，他们确实拥有渠道优势。
And of course, yeah, they do have distribution.
因此这确实相当困难。
And so it becomes pretty hard.
我们很早就明白，在这个领域竞争，俗话说'与其更好，不如不同'。
I think for us, like early on, we knew that to compete in this category, you know, the saying is, it's better to be different than better.
对吧？
Right?
就是说，与其做得更好，不如做得与众不同。
Like, it's better to be different than better.
因此对我们来说，我们想要从根本上与众不同。
And so for us, we wanted to be fundamentally different.
有哪些不同于16:9幻灯片的原始构件或模块，能让不具备设计技能、没有设计资源的普通人也能快速创作内容？
What are the different set of primitives or building blocks that aren't 16 by nine slides that allows the average person that doesn't have design skills, that doesn't have design resources to be able to create content super fast?
这就是最初的差异化所在。
So that was kind of the initial differentiation.
我认为如今还存在另一个陷阱——作为AI原生的初创公司，你可以过度依赖AI模型，并假设它们会不断进步（确实如此），但这反而会成为拐杖，因为你总在担心：我不想创造那些会被模型彻底颠覆的东西。
I think today there's almost a separate trap, which is being an AI native startup, you can lean a lot on just the AI models and assume they're gonna get better and better, which they will, but then that almost becomes a crutch because you're trying to anticipate, well, I don't want to sort of create something that the model's gonna disrupt everything I've created.
于是你就不愿真正去思考：如何创造一种介于两者之间的方案，既给人们一个起点，又能保持人类在决策环中的位置？
And so you're not really willing to understand, okay, how do I create something in between that gives people a starting point that still has human in the loop?
这相当具有挑战性。
And it's pretty challenging.
我认为我们很幸运，时机上我们是在AI时代之前起步的。
I think for us, we were lucky in the timing in that we started pre AI.
我们最初就设想了哪些基础模块会很重要，之后在发展中与AI结合，从而实现了两全其美。
We had a thesis around what building blocks would be important, and then we married that with AI along the way so that we kind of get the best of both worlds.
是的。
Yeah.
这很吸引人。
That's fascinating.
我想顺着这个话题多说一句：我们正在与微软、谷歌这些全球科技巨头竞争。
And I think maybe just to pull on that thread a little bit, hey, we're coming up against Microsoft, Google, the biggest tech juggernauts in the world.
但另一方面，你可能会听到有人说：
But on the flip side, right, you might hear from others that, hey.
这个问题会不会直接被前沿模型解决掉？
Is this just gonna be solved by the frontier models?
哦，确实。
Oh, yeah.
随着模型性能的提升，你可以一次性完成出色的AI演示。
As the models get better, you can one shot a great AI presentation.
详细说说为什么这个现实可能正是你不必害怕的。
Talk more about why that reality is also maybe one that you're not afraid of.
而不仅仅是单一模型本身，更像是Gamma在顶层附加了哪些价值。
And beyond sort of a single model itself, like what kind of value Gamma's adding on top.
是的。
Yeah.
我们的看法是，对于某些任务，或许通才方案或超级应用就能处理大部分需求。
I mean, the way we see it is for certain tasks, maybe a generalist approach or a super app could probably do a lot of these things.
对于一次性演示，这实际上可能是个可行的解决方案。
For one off presentations, that might be actually a viable solution for that case.
我认为，当待完成的工作对终端用户至关重要时——比如视觉传达、商务沟通、视觉叙事——需要大量细节才能达到理想效果。
I think for any time where the job to be done is really core to what the end user is trying to do, so in this case, visual communication, business communication, visual storytelling, there's a lot that happens to make that feel right.
作为创作者，你需要感受到自己有充分的创作主导权。
You as a creator need to feel like you have a lot of input.
你会希望深度参与，因为这是在讲述你自己的故事，而非AI的故事。
You want to be involved in that, because it is your story you're telling, it's not the AI story.
因此，当你深入探究优秀视觉叙事工具的本质时，会发现其中涉及多种工作流程。
And so, when you start going really, really deep into what it means to be a great visual storytelling tool, that job to be done, there's a lot of different workflows.
对我们而言，光是协调各种模型——无论是文本、图像、视频还是音频——就有大量工作要做。
For us, even orchestrating all the different models, whether it's on the text side, image side, video, audio, there's a lot going on there.
那么如何整合这些功能，让终端用户能流畅地进行编辑、调整等操作？
And so how do you package that all up so that it feels good for the end user to be able to still play with this, edit, manipulate, all those things?
我们认为这需要非常专业的工具才能实现。
And we just think that that requires a really specific tool, the ability to do that.
即便考虑未来的发展，也需要从单人模式进化到多人协作模式，包括共享工作区和内容调用的中央资源库。
Even as you think about the evolution of that for us, it's like you need to go from single player mode to multiplayer mode, the ability to collaborate, have a shared workspace, have a central repository of things that you're pulling into content.
这些问题同样难以解决。
Those are also difficult problems to solve.
当然你可以做到，但对于一个超级应用来说，这样做就会逐渐偏离它们的长远目标。
And certainly you can do it, but for a super app to do that, then you're starting to pull away from what maybe their long term aspiration is.
他们确实想成为全能应用，这意味着必须牺牲许多不符合长期愿景的细分解决方案。
They do want to be the all purpose app, and that means they have to sacrifice a lot of these granular point solutions that may not fit with their long term vision.
是啊。
Yeah.
这很有趣，因为Gamma的魔力很大程度上（至少部分）来自AI，比如新版AgenTic 3.0的发布就很惊艳，编辑功能也很强大。
It's interesting because a lot of what's magical or at least some of what's magical about Gamma comes from AI, like the new AgenTic three point o launch is amazing and the editing capabilities there.
还有一些似乎是你们团队对演示和沟通方式的新见解。
And then some of it just seems to be new insights that your team had around how presentations and communications should work.
比如，是什么过程促使你们采用不同的做法？
Like, what what was the process that led you to doing that differently?
没错。
Yeah.
部分原因是这样，当我们最初创立Gamma时，这个构想的萌芽——或者说最初灵感的来源——是我在被收购前在另一家初创公司工作，后来回归了我的老本行咨询业。
So part of this was, you know, when we first started Gamma, this inception idea, or how we came about the initial idea was I was working at a different startup before we were acquired, and I went back into my roots, which is consulting.
当时我在辅导早期初创公司，用的演示工具是谷歌幻灯片。
I was advising early stage startups, and what I was using to create presentations was Google Slides.
有个深夜赶工的时刻特别难忘，我在为第二天会议准备材料，感觉把所有时间都花在让幻灯片看起来体面上，免得显得我没干活。
So, I'd go in, really one of the moments was late at night, trying to prepare for a meeting the next day, and just feeling like I was spending all this time trying to format the deck to look decent so that it didn't look like I didn't do any work.
那一刻我突然觉得：必须有个更好的方法。
I had this moment feeling like there's got to be a better way.
这感觉太本末倒置了。
This feels so backwards.
为什么我要把90%时间花在排版上，只有10%时间用在内容上？
Why am I spending 90% of the time on the formatting and 10% of the time on the content?
因此，当我们退后一步思考时，PowerPoint诞生于近四十年前，这期间发生了什么变化？
And so, when we took a step back just to think about, okay, again, PowerPoint invented almost forty years ago, what has changed?
有哪些变化趋势是我们能够预见的？
What are some of the things that we can anticipate continue to change?
很明显，信息共享方式已经发生了改变。
One is the way we share information obviously changed.
疫情期间高峰期，大量工作转移到了线上或Zoom平台。
Peak pandemic, of course, so much work shifted to virtual or over Zoom.
那么，如果内容不再是固定的16:9静态画面，而是更具可塑性会怎样？
And so, if instead of having content that was static 16 by nine, it was much more malleable?
它完全可以默认具备移动端响应能力。
It could be something that could be mobile responsive by default.
比如我分享内容给你时，你在手机上打开就能像浏览网页一样滑动查看，让内容自然流动呈现。
So, if I shared something with you, you open on your phone, you could scroll through it just like you would a website, and that same content can kind of flow naturally there.
我们还想，为什么大多数演示文稿仅限于图文？为何不能融入更丰富的多媒体？
We also thought, why instead of just having most presentations, just text and images, what if it could be more multimedia rich?
你甚至可以直接将整个网页嵌入演示中，这样能展示比实际内容更丰富的维度。
So you could literally embed an entire website into what you're presenting because that's a way for you to have much more richness than what you're actually trying to showcase.
当然，与其使用需要手动点击'下一页'的传统幻灯片——
And then of course, rather than a standard slide deck where I'm saying, hey, next slide please, and clicking on it, What if it could be interactive?
何不让它变成每次点击都能展开新内容的交互式体验？
What if it could be something where everything you click on, it can actually open up?
就像我们遵循的网页设计原则，比如渐进式披露理念，这些同样适用于演示场景。
Just like the principles that we've embraced with web, like the whole notion of progressive disclosure, that should apply to presentations as well.
这样无论是异步阅读时自主选择路径，还是由我作为讲述者引导，都能实现。
So I can either, if you're reading it async, you can choose your own adventure, or if I'm presenting it to you, I can be the storyteller and actually guide you through this.
我们认为这些理念看似显而易见，或许在网页创作领域已成共识——为何不让普通用户也能获得同等能力？他们可能不懂设计、缺乏技术资源、不会编程，但同样值得拥有超越常规的创作可能。
And we felt like those are all things that seem obvious or maybe we've already taken for granted on the website side of creation, and why not be able to offer that same set of things for the average person that, again, doesn't have design skills, doesn't have technical resources, maybe doesn't know how to code, and just empower them to do way more than they could otherwise.
你看到了什么？
What what do you see?
我是说，我热爱Gamma平台上解锁的这些进化成果。
I mean, I love this evolution of what's been unlocked on Gamma.
如果你思考下一步的发展，确实如此。
And if you think about what's next Yep.
我们甚至看到虚拟形象在销售场景中的创新应用。
Even we're seeing interesting things being done with avatars, often in a sales context.
虽然还处于早期阶段，但你认为Gamma接下来最有趣的发展方向会是什么？
It's still very early innings, but how do you think about what's most interesting and what's kind of coming up next for Gamma?
完全同意。
Totally.
我们重点关注的领域之一是普遍痛点。
One of the things we try to focus on are universal pain points.
就Gamma的基础而言，我们的核心洞察是：虽然人类都是视觉学习者，但很少有人具备视觉设计的专业背景。
So when it comes to just even the foundation for Gamma, a lot of the insight was we're all visual learners, but very few of us are visual designers by background.
那么我们该如何赋能人们成为优秀的视觉叙事者？
And so how can we empower people to be good visual storytellers?
我认为在这个领域，还有另一个让人畏惧的技能——公开演讲。
I think within this sort of space, there's another skill set that a lot of people have fear about, which is presenting.
很多人可能缺乏自信走进会议室清晰表达自己的想法。
And they're not maybe super confident going up into a room and being able to articulate their thoughts.
我觉得这非常关键——如果人们无法做好这点，就意味着他们的创意永远无法被世界看见。
And I feel like that's a huge If people can't do that well, then that just means their ideas never make it into the world.
如果真是这样，我认为会是个非常遗憾的结果。
And I feel like that's really a disappointing outcome if that's the case.
当然，AI虚拟形象，或是能代你发声表达观点的智能演示，这些探索都令人振奋——因为它们再次回归到那些普遍痛点，帮助人们克服与生俱来的短板。
And so, course, yeah, the whole notion of maybe AI avatars, or like a presentation that can speak or articulate your thoughts on your behalf using your voice, I think those are all super exciting explorations, because again, it goes back to some of these universal pain points or, like, you know, things that people aren't inherently great at that we can help assist them along the way.
这份演示文稿就像是最终输出的一个单元，它凝聚了大量的前期工作和思考，通常一个好的演示都是如此。
The the presentation is kind of like a final unit of output is is downstream of, like, a lot of work and also a lot of thinking usually if it's a good presentation.
完全同意。
Totally.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
你认为Gamma在演示准备领域能走多远？
How do you think about how far Gamma goes in the prepresentation space?
比如，你们会帮助用户从最初的想法萌芽，到清晰表达出一个完整论点，这个过程中会提供多少支持？
Like, how much do you do to help users get from, like, the initial grain of an idea into, like, a pretty clear articulation of a thesis?
这是个很好的问题。
Yeah, that's a great question.
对我们来说，我们希望提供端到端的服务。
For us, we want to be end to end.
当用户刚有想要分享的灵感火花时，我们就希望能帮助他们构建框架，甚至协助创建初始的叙事脉络。
The moment someone has some inkling of idea that they want to share, we want to be there for them to help structure that, help maybe even create that initial narrative or story arc.
而当他们准备起草初稿时，我们希望能协助搭建大纲，让模糊的想法逐渐成形。
Then the moment they want to create that first draft, they want to be there to help them create that outline and be able to actually put something where you're putting some shape around it.
当需要设计伙伴帮忙编辑和完善思路时，我们的智能助手会全面审阅已有内容并提供建议，甚至直接完成设计修改。
Then when you do want a design partner to help you edit and really refine the thinking, We want our agent to build a review, everything you've already created and offer suggestions, maybe even make the design changes for you.
当然，在实际演示分享时，我们还希望能建立实时反馈循环。
And then of course, the moment you're actually sharing and presenting to others, we want you to have a feedback loop.
观众对哪些内容最感兴趣？
What are people engaging with?
哪些内容真正引起了共鸣？
What content actually resonates?
人们通常在哪些环节遇到困难？
What are people getting stuck on?
这样你就能回头优化整个流程。
So that you can go back and refine the entire process.
所以，是的，我们希望今天能做得还不错，算是中等水平吧。
And so, yeah, we do hope Today, I think we do decently well sort of in the middle.
你可能已经完成了初稿的第一版。
You have maybe the initial first draft done.
你们已经具备了一些编辑功能。
You have some of the editing capabilities.
我确实认为我们有机会真正实现闭环。
I do think we have an opportunity to really close the loop entirely.
而且正如你所说，就连旅程最开始的部分，我觉得我们还有很多可以改进的空间。
And and to your point, even, like, the very, very first part of the journey, I think there's a ton more we could do there.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Totally.
我知道Olivia提到过Gamma 3.0版本的发布。
And I know Olivia touched on the Gamma three point o launch Mhmm.
那是几周前的事了。
Which was, you know, a few weeks ago now.
那次发布非常激动人心，也非常成功。
Very exciting launch, very successful.
在那次发布中，你们已经有了智能代理功能。
And within that, you had agent Yep.
团队，API。
Teams, API.
一下子发布了很多内容，是的。
There's a lot coming out in one Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
重大发布日。
Big big launch day.
而且，你知道，当我们使用智能体时，感觉就像有个设计伙伴在身边协作。
And, you know, I think when we use agent, it feels like having a design partner alongside you.
我很好奇。
I'm curious.
我知道现在还为时过早，但对于那些已经尝试过的用户来说，它如何改变了他们与Gamma的互动方式？
I know it's early days, but how has it changed the way your users interact with with Gamma to for the ones that have tried it at least?
是的。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Totally.
我或许可以快速分享一个观点，就是我们发布了3.0版本。
I'll I'll maybe one I'll quickly just share one perspective, which is, you know, I think, you know, we launched three point o.
我认为有必要让大家思考1.0、2.0和3.0版本发布之间的区别是什么？
I think it's helpful just to all think about what is the difference between a one point zero, a two point zero, and a three point zero launch?
对我来说，1.0版本发布完全是针对真正的创新者或那些愿意尝试任何新事物的人。
For me, the one point zero launch is all about really going after the true sort of innovators or the people that are really willing to try whatever's out there.
他们热爱新鲜事物，对吧？
They love the new things, right?
你可以称他们为AI尝鲜者，但他们本质上就是因为喜欢摆弄和测试各种工具才来的。
And you can call them AI tourists, but they're basically going out there because they love playing around and testing all these tools.
他们中的许多人可能不会留下来，我认为这没关系，但你开始围绕哪些内容有趣、哪些不有趣、哪些真正有用，获得一些初步的能量。
Many of them may not stick around, and I think that's okay, but you're starting to get some of this initial energy around what's interesting, what's not, what's actually useful.
当然，之后还需要回过头来，继续围绕产品进行改进。
And of course, have then to go back and actually continue to improve around the product.
当你进入2.0版本发布时，终于有机会赢得你眼中的早期采用者。
When you get to your two point zero launch, you finally have a chance to win over what you consider as the early adopters.
这些人仍然愿意容忍你产品中的许多不足或缺陷，但这是他们第一次开始从你这里提取产品。
People that still are willing to put up with a lot of gaps or deficiencies in your product, but for the first time, they're starting to pull a product out of you.
他们有一长串的功能需求清单。
They have a whole long list of feature requests.
他们看到产品在某些使用场景下运行良好，这很棒。
They see it working for certain use cases, and that's great.
你将这些反馈带回来，开始进一步充实你的路线图。
You take that feedback back, you start actually fleshing out your roadmap even further.
然后你最终进入3.0版本发布，我认为这就像跨越鸿沟，你第一次尝试打入大众市场。
And then you finally get to your three point zero launch, which I think is like, if you were to map it to crossing the chasm, you're for the first time trying to hit the mass market.
你有机会拥有一个真正可用、可靠且人们可以信赖的产品。
You have a chance to have a product that can actually be used and be relied on and people can trust it.
我认为这就是我们现在的处境。
And I think that's where we're at today.
因此，我们正在发布几项不同的内容。
And so, us, there's a few different things we're releasing.
其中之一是我们现在实际上可以为各种规模的企业提供服务。
One is just this notion that we can actually serve businesses of all sizes now.
我认为我们正从单人模式转向多人模式，从仅作为专业消费者工具转向成为商业应用程序。
I think we're going from the single player to multiplayer mode, going from just being a prosumer tool to being a business application.
我认为我们必须赢得这样做的权利。
And I think we've had to earn the right to be able to do so.
我认为在商业应用场景中还有巨大的发展空间，从服务条款到安全隐私，再到能否真正与同事实时协作，这些都是需要考虑的。
And I think that there's a ton more for a business use case where everything from even your terms of service to security, privacy, to can I actually collaborate in real time with my colleagues and coworkers?
这些对我们来说都是需要切实解决的重要限制条件。
These are all pretty meaningful constraints for us to actually deliver on.
因此我们投入了大量工作来实现这一目标。
And so we've worked a lot to actually be able to fulfill on that.
作为其中的一部分，我们也在扩展Gamma所代表的内涵边界。
And as part of that, we're also kind of expanding the aperture of what Gamma even represents.
我们还推出了API业务，我认为这是首次除了服务终端用户外，我们还能服务那些想在Gamma平台上开发的企业和开发者。
We're also releasing an API business where I do think for the first time, in addition to just serving end users, we can serve businesses and developers that want to build on top of Gamma.
所以对我们来说，这是一个激动人心的时刻。虽然我们业务模式一直很直接易懂，但未来我们将能增加复杂性，通过多种方式服务不同类型的用户。
So So for us, it's just an exciting moment in time where, I think, for a business that has up until now been pretty straightforward, pretty easy to understand, I think we'll be able to add complexity in the sense that we're gonna have many different ways we can serve many different types of users.
是的。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
我想重点谈谈API这部分，因为每当提到'代理'这个词时，总是会吸引所有注意力。
And I wanna actually touch on the API piece of it because I feel like whenever there's an a the word agent thrown in, that gets all the attention.
但这其实让我想起我们之前的一次CRO晚宴，很多首席营收官都谈到使用Gamma制作销售演示。
But but, actually, this this harkens back to a CRO dinner that we had where a lot of CROs talked talked about using Gamma for sales decks.
没错。
Right.
想象一下能够连接你的数据存储，比如CRM系统等等
And if you think about the ability to connect your data stores, maybe it's a CRM, etcetera
对。
Right.
到传达其中的内容和想法并付诸行动，这是一个非常非常强大的概念。
To communicating what's in them and sort of the ideas and getting that to action, that's a very, very powerful concept.
能否举例说明你在用户中见过哪些类似循环流程的例子，并启发了API产品的开发？
What is sort of what are some examples of loops like that that you've seen among your users and sort of inspired the API product?
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
早期很多需求都是基于我们的专业消费者用户群体基础构建的。
So a lot of the early requests were just building on the foundation of our prosumer user base.
这些专业消费者大多已经在使用Zapier、Make等工具，现在我们可以将他们正在使用的工具连接起来。
Prosumers, many of them are already using tools like Zapier, Make, and now we can connect the tools they're already using.
假设你正在使用Granola做所有笔记，如果你是个Gamma用户——比如用它来与客户和合作伙伴沟通——当你与客户会面结束时，就能将Granola中的所有内容直接生成精美的演示文稿，总结所有讨论主题、行动项、交付成果和后续步骤。
So, let's say you're using granola for all of your notes, if you're someone that uses Gamma, let's say you're using it as a way to communicate to your clients and partners, and you're sitting with a client, the moment the meeting's over, you can feed everything from granola into basically creating a beautiful presentation that recaps all of the discussion topics, recaps all of the action items, the deliverables, and all the next steps.
会议一结束，客户邮箱里就会收到这份精美的演示PDF，清楚了解会议内容和达成的共识，他们会感到被倾听，认为你是个可靠的合作伙伴。
So as soon as the meeting is over, in their inbox, the client has that beautiful presentation, the beautiful PDF, and they know exactly basically what happened during the meeting and what was agreed upon, and they feel good because they feel like you listened and are able to really fulfill being a good partner for them.
在市场推广方面，正如你提到的，我们看到了与CRM系统集成的可能性。有些用户还在使用Endgame等销售智能工具，这些工具中的信息可以直接导入演示文稿。
On the sort of go to market side, we see, to your point, being able to integrate with CRM or in some cases, people are using sales intelligence tools like Endgame, where a lot of that information is there that can be pulled into a presentation.
如果你想为特定客户定制市场调研或客户研究演示，也能通过高度自动化实现，我们认为这将非常强大。
So if you want to personalize a market research or a customer research deck for a specific client or customer, you can also do that on a super automated basis, and we think that's going be super powerful.
在B2B领域，我们特别看好两个应用场景。
And then I think on the B2B side, there's actually two different use cases that we're super excited about.
其一是与Glean这样的公司合作，他们掌握企业知识库和第一方数据，我们可以成为其内部可视化叙事层。
One is being able to partner with someone like Glean, who sits on top of company knowledge, first party data, where internally, we can be their visual storytelling layer.
比如准备季度业务回顾或战略会议时，直接调取现有信息生成演示文稿，确保所有人信息同步。
So you have to prepare for a QBR or a strategy session, pull all the information you already have and create that deck so everybody can be on the same page.
谁还愿意花时间手动排版PPT呢？当这些能自动生成时——在开发者方面，我们已经开始与房地产应用开发者对话。
We think that's gonna be also just like, who wants to spend time formatting the PowerPoint when you can just And have that automatically created in then I think on the developer side, this is where we're already starting to talk folks like someone building a real estate app.
他们希望终端用户在产品中搜索特定邮编或区域时，能自动生成该区域所有可用房源的目录列表。
They want their end users to build When they go into their product and search a specific zip code or region, they want to be able to give their users a directory or listing of all the available homes in that market.
现在他们可以向终端用户发送精美的品牌PDF文件，而他们并不想自己构建这个功能。
And they can have now a beautiful branded PDF sent to that end user, and they don't want to have to build that.
我们可以成为他们的内容基础设施，与他们的实际房地产应用形成互补，在底层提供所有这些优势——他们现在就能拥有这个基于Gamma构建的内容引擎。
We can be their content infrastructure in a way that's very complementary to their actual real estate app and provide them under the hood, all this goodness that, again, they can have now this content engine running for them all built on top of Gamma.
随着Gamma的进步，即使是专业消费者方面，产品也会变得更好，其他一切也会随之提升。
And as Gamma gets better, even on the prosumer side, that product gets better, Everything else gets better too.
对吧？
Right?
API变得更强大、更高效，从而能够支持更多使用场景。
The API becomes more powerful, more effective, and it can then serve even more use cases.
太棒了。
It's amazing.
听你讲述1.0、2.0、3.0版本的发布过程，你的团队始终是极其清晰直观的产品构建者。
Hearing you walk through, like, the one point o, two point o, three point o launch, your team has always been incredibly, I think, clear and intuitive product builders.
但用户量从数千万发展到数亿后，你们肯定收到了大量需求。
But I'm sure with tens and now in the hundreds of millions of users, you get a lot of requests.
你们如何决定要开发哪些用户迫切要求的功能？
Like, how do you think about what do you build that people are clamoring for?
哪些功能选择不做？
What do you not build?
如何进行这些权衡取舍？
Like, how do you make those trade offs?
是的。
Yeah.
这确实变得越来越困难。
It's it's definitely becoming increasingly hard.
所以始终要在市场空白与机遇的直觉判断之间取得平衡。
So it's always balancing your own intuition for where you think there's big gaps or opportunities in the market.
我们还有多种信息来源渠道，我们显然会努力把握市场脉搏，然后尝试整合所有信息。
We also have just many different sources where we try to obviously try to just have a good pulse, and then try to consolidate all that.
其中之一是我们有一个公开的创意看板，任何人都可以提交未来想法或需求，其他人可以点赞支持。
So one is we have a public candy board where anybody can submit future ideas, requests, people can upvote.
我们为高级用户单独建立了一个Slack群组。
We have for our power users a separate sort of Slack group.
我们称之为Gambassador计划。
We call it the Gambassador program.
我们把他们都聚集在那里，这是获取实时反馈的绝佳场所，因为我们经常展示早期概念、线框图等内容，询问：'这个完全偏离方向了吗？还是说有点意思？'
So we throw them all there, and it's a great place for me to get real time feedback because oftentimes we're kind of showcasing early concepts, wireframes, whatever it may be, and saying, Hey, is this completely missing the mark, or is there something interesting here?
从中你能获得非常关键且诚实的反馈。
And so you get some really critical and honest feedback from there.
而且我们是自己产品的极端使用者。
And then we're extreme dog fooders for our own product.
每周我们有个叫Gamma Rama的活动，公司任何人都可以就任何主题做趣味展示，比如给大家科普某个知识。
And so, week we have something called Gamma Rama, where anybody at the company can create a fun presentation on any topic, like educate us on something.
可以是兴趣爱好，也可以是你坚信的理念。
It could be a hobby, it could be something you really believe in.
每场GammaRama结束时，大家都会讨论使用中遇到的所有痛点和产品不足。
And at the end of every GammaRama, you talk about all the pain points you have, all the shortcomings of the product.
总之就是通过多种渠道收集信息，然后我们会定期评估哪些事项最重要，并将其推进到路线图中。
So all to say is multiple different inputs into that, and then we try on a very regular basis to stack frame where we think is gonna be most important and to push that into onto the road map.
其实我想稍微转换一下话题，谈谈增长本身。
I actually wanna switch gears a little bit to growth itself.
接近1亿用户的惊人之处不仅在于这个庞大数字，更在于你们主要通过自然增长渠道实现这一目标。
And the crazy thing about approaching a 100,000,000 users is not only the sheer number, but the fact that you've done through you've done so predominantly through organic channels.
没错。
Yep.
我们很想知道，我相信很多听众都会好奇你们到底是怎么做到的。
And so we'd love for the I'm sure a lot of folks, out there listening would be interested in how the heck did you guys do that.
是的。
Yeah.
对你们来说哪些渠道最有效？
What channels have been the most effective for you?
我必须插一句。
And I do have to throw in there.
不知道你会不会提到这个渠道，但你们的Instagram内容让我印象深刻。
I don't know if you're gonna say this channel, but I've been very impressed by your Instagram content.
我是千禧一代，整天泡在Instagram上。
I'm a millennial, and I'm on Instagram all the time.
而且我经常与你们的内容互动。
And I engage with your content.
有时候当我准备点赞时，会发现已经有8万个赞了。所以特别好奇这是怎么爆发式增长的，以及你们是如何让社区参与进来的。
And occasionally, when I go to like it, I'll notice it has 80,000 likes And and so very curious how this ballooned, expanded, and how you guys bring the community into the effort.
完全同意。
Totally.
我想先说，对于大多数早期创业者，当他们接近或可能达到产品市场契合时，我给出的首要建议就是专注口碑传播。
I mean, I'll start by just you know, what my piece of advice for most early stage founders, as they're approaching or maybe getting the product market fit, the number one thing I always advise them to focus on is word-of-mouth.
你必须打造一款具有强大口碑的产品。
You have to build a product that has strong word-of-mouth.
当做到这一点时，其他所有事情都会变得容易得多。
Everything else becomes so much easier when that's the case.
在没有形成强大口碑之前，不要自欺欺人地认为已经实现了产品市场契合。
And don't fool yourself into thinking of product market fit until you have strong word-of-mouth.
所以我们确实从一开始就努力做好这一点。
And so we really did try to get that right in the very beginning.
早期我们有几次不同的发布时刻，在Product Hunt上发布后，我们最终赢得了当日最佳、本周最佳和本月最佳产品，感觉非常棒。
We had a few different launch moments early on where we launched on Product Hunt and we had ended up winning product of the day, product of the week, product of the month, and it felt good.
然后我们观察注册数据，最初能看到注册量激增，之后逐渐趋于平稳。
And then we looked at the signups, and initially, you see this huge spike in signups, and then they sort of plateau out.
虽然我们仍在获取新用户，但很明显我们的产品缺乏强大的自然传播力。
And we're still bringing in new users, but it was very clear we didn't have strong organic virality.
在基础层面上有些东西没有发挥作用。
Something wasn't working on the fundamental level.
于是我们不得不回头反思：当时本可以说'好吧，也许我们只需要在漏斗顶端投入更多资金，大量投放广告，开展大规模网红营销活动'。
And so we had to go back and say, Okay, at that point in time, could have said, Okay, maybe let's just throw much more money at top of the funnel, advertise a whole bunch, run massive influencer campaigns.
我想那样可能会让我们自欺欺人地以为可以持续增长，觉得这样就没问题。
And I think we would have fooled ourselves into thinking we could just continue to grow, and that would be fine.
我们可以靠砸钱解决问题。
We'll just spend our way out of the problem.
但我觉得我们诚实地审视了自己。
But I think we gave ourselves an honest look.
不，核心增长机制出了问题。
No, the core growth engine is broken.
所以在采取任何措施前，我们要确保产品确实具备强大的口碑传播力。
So before we do any of that, let's make sure we do have strong word-of-mouth.
于是我们最终花了三四个月时间筹备首次AI产品发布。
So we ended up spending three to four months leading up to our first AI launch.
整个团队只专注一件事：
The entire team just focused on one thing.
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我们要确保产品体验的前三十秒完美无缺。
We are going to nail the first thirty seconds of the product experience.
我们要让每个新用户都有机会看到那个惊艳时刻，这样他们就会主动向朋友、同事和家人推荐这个产品。
We're going to make sure that every new user coming in has a chance of seeing the moment, such that they will go on and tell their friends, colleagues, family about this product.
我认为在我们正式发布的那一刻，突然之间，我们花了八个月才达到的6万注册量，在几天内就被超越了。
And I think the moment we launched, all of a sudden you see what took us basically eight months to get to 60,000 signups, within a few days we surpassed that.
然后我们每天新增2.5万、4.5万、5万注册用户，增长持续不断。我们没有做任何广告或营销，完全依靠用户自然传播——人们使用产品后口口相传。
And then we'd have 25,000 signups a day, 45,000 signups a day, 50,000 signups a day, it just kept on going And we weren't doing any advertising, we weren't doing any marketing, and it was just all organic pull of people were using product, telling others about it, sharing it with others.
这时我们感觉，只要保持这种势头，其他所有事情都是锦上添花。
And that's where we felt like, okay, we're on a path where if we can just continue doing that, everything else is amplification on top of that.
作为创始团队成员，你现在可以思考：我们应该在哪些环节加强以加速增长？
You as a founding agent then can actually say, okay, where might we augment and actually accelerate the growth?
我认为在此之前行动会显得操之过急，但在那个时机出手，你就能乘着这股强劲的东风获得全方位支持。
And I think doing so before that would have been premature, but doing that at that moment, then you have more of this massive tailwind to support you and everything else.
所以这是基本原则，务必做到。
So that's fundamental, do that.
我认为现在很多应用程序本质上更偏向专业消费者（prosumer）群体。
And then I think there's many apps out there today that are very much more prosumer in nature.
因此你拥有不断扩大的用户基础。
And so you have a growing base of users.
对创始人来说这往往很困难，因为你从认识每个用户的状态，突然变成了面对面目模糊的群体。
It's oftentimes hard for a founder because you go from this point where you know every user to the user base being the sort of faceless entity.
我的用户到底是谁？
Who is even my user?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我想听众们应该都很熟悉'创始人主导销售'这个重要概念。
So I think a lot of your audience is probably familiar with founder led sales as an important concept.
如果你做B2B业务，很可能需要这样做。
If you're selling B2B, you probably need to do that.
你必须成为第一个懂得如何讲述产品故事的人，最终才能培训和指导你的客户经理。
You need to be the first person to know how to tell the story of your product, be able to then eventually train and onboard your AEs.
我认为在这个时代，创始人主导的营销非常重要。
I think in this era, it's really important to have founder led marketing.
如何以引人入胜的方式广泛讲述你的故事，让听众真正理解产品及其世界意义？
How do you tell your story broadly in a way that is compelling, a way that really understands the product and why it matters in the world?
在这种情况下，必须密切参与品牌建设的每个环节。
And in this case, be so close to everything that is part of brand building.
初期必须对此保持高度专注。
You have to be laser focused on that in the beginning.
我认为这样一来，其他事情就会变得相对容易些。
And I think, again, then everything else becomes a little bit easier.
像Gamma这样覆盖面广的产品，如果定价设计不够谨慎，盈利模式可能会阻碍增长。
Sometimes there are products that are as horizontal as Gamma is, Monetization can get in the way of growth if you're not very careful about how you design pricing.
你们的很多用户可能是学生等群体，他们最终可能会付费，但可能免费使用Gamma数月甚至数年。
And a lot of your users are maybe students or other people who eventually might pay, but they might use Gamma for months or years without paying.
你们是如何考虑付费墙设置和定价设计的？
Like, How do you think about where you put the paywall and how you design the pricing?
是的，目前这确实更像是门艺术而非科学。
Yeah, I mean, this is one where it's definitely probably more art than science at this point.
我们的做法是：首次重大AI产品发布时，注册量直线飙升。
So the way we approached it was, when we ended up doing our first big AI launch, sign ups were going through the roof.
在最初30秒的allhandson.com搭建阶段，我们完全没有考虑盈利问题。
Hadn't built any allhandson.com building the first thirty seconds, we had zero effort on the monetization piece.
所以我们当时甚至无法向用户收费。
So we actually couldn't even charge people for the product.
哇。
Wow.
当时Intercom上消息爆炸，用户都在说积分用完了，怎么购买更多？
And Intercom was blowing up with people saying, I ran out of credits, and how do I purchase more?
这是个非常合理的问题。
It was a very fair question.
我们当时没有确切的答案。
We didn't have an accurate answer to that.
我当时就想，好吧，看来我们需要去研究定价问题了。
I'm like, Okay, yeah, I guess we need to go figure out pricing.
于是我们整个四月基本上都在进行初步的定价研究。
So, we ended up spending all of April basically running some initial pricing studies.
我们采用了经典的Van Wessendorf方法。
We did classic sort of Van Wessendorf.
我们广泛调研了其他产品的定价策略。
We looked broadly at how other products were pricing.
综合所有这些数据点后，我们得出的结论是：在当前这个时间点，大家都熟悉ChatGPT的定价，心理预期已经被锚定了。
And I think amongst all these different data points, the conclusion ended up being part of this is just, in this moment in time, everyone's familiar with ChatGPT's pricing, and they're kind of already anchored on that.
虽然可以在定价策略上做得很精细，但这会给用户购买流程增加很多摩擦。
So, you can kind of get very sophisticated in how you want to price it, but that adds a lot of friction into how people want to purchase a product.
所以我们最终采用了类似ChatGPT初期的定价模式，作为我们的起点。
So we ultimately landed something similar to how ChatGPT was pricing initially, just as we thought as a good starting point.
至少先让人们能够购买Gamma产品。
Let's just at least allow people to purchase Gamma.
然后我们想通过实际数据来验证。
And then we wanted to then see the data.
这个定价模式对我们来说真的经济可行吗？
Is this a model that was actually economical for us?
我们能在这样的价格点上盈利吗？
Could we make money with that price point?
幸运的是，我们确实做到了。
Fortunately for us, we were.
我们曾面临这样一个时刻：AI产品的发布堪称公司命运的豪赌，因为我们只剩下约12个月的运营资金，这对初创企业来说处境相当艰难，尤其当前路未卜。
We went from a point where our AI launch was really the sort of bet the company moment, because we were about twelve months of runway, which as a startup is not a great place to be, especially if there's uncertainty ahead.
当我们推出定价方案后，仅用三个月就实现了100万美元的年度经常性收入，随后开始盈利。
And so the moment we launched pricing and packaging, it took us about three months to get to 1,000,000 ARR and then become profitable.
对我们而言，这意味着'现有模式无需大改，至少现阶段核心经济模型是成立的，我们会持续关注其表现'。
So for us, it felt like, Okay, well, we don't need to change much because at least we know the core unit economics work, at least at this stage, and we're going continue to monitor it.
之后我们将更专注于产品本身。
And then we'll focus more on the product.
假设当初产品上线后虽然运转正常，但资金消耗过快，导致本就不足的运营资金加速见底，那我们绝对需要重新评估决策。
I think if we had launched and things were working, but we're actually burning a lot of cash, and that twelve month runway is actually going down even faster, then we definitely would've had to revisit that decision.
幸运的是，我们早期无需面对这种困境，事实上两年多来我们从未调整过定价策略。
Fortunately for us, that wasn't one we had to do early on, and we actually really haven't touched pricing two plus years.
最近虽然新增了几款方案，但基础定价架构基本保持原貌。
More recently, we introduced a few new plans, but fundamentally, the initial design more or less has been the same.
确实。
Yeah.
顺便说，我非常认同你关于增长的见解。
Well, by the way, I love what you were saying about growth.
这让我想起你最近访谈中的观点：'战略的本质是打造人们热爱的产品来构建业务'。
It reminds me I think you had this quote in an interview recently where you said strategy is building a business on a product people love.
这种简洁透彻的表述令人茅塞顿开——商业本质确实可以浓缩至此。
So just the simplicity and clarity of that was, you know, I think very very eye opening actually because you can really boil it down to that.
关于从消费者转向专业用户的讨论，我们之前谈过团队版发布计划。
Maybe just to this point on starting consumer prosumer, we talked about launching the Teams plan.
我很好奇你如何看待跨越鸿沟进军企业市场的问题。
Curious how you think about crossing the chasm to the enterprise Yeah.
以及更广泛的B2B用户群体。
And b to b users more generally.
感觉可能已经有很多吸引力了，因为部分用户出于个人原因使用你们的产品，然后又把你们引入工作场景。
It feels like there's probably have been a lot of pull already just because some of your users use you for personal reasons, and then they bring you into work.
没错。
Right.
不过或许可以多谈谈这方面。
But maybe talk more about that.
你们是如何决定启动这个计划的时机？怎么判断什么时候是最佳时间点的？
When did how did you decide on the timing of when to launch this plan and when the when the time was right?
完全同意。
Totally.
是的。
Yeah.
我们其实在推进顺序上考虑了很多。
I mean, we think lot about sequencing.
尽可能为自己创造成功条件。
Set yourself up for success if you can.
在我们看来，专业消费者优先策略正是像我们这类产品应该选择的起点。
And that's where prosumer first is, in our minds, where you want to start for a product like ours.
在尝试B2B模式或销售流程之前，你需要先建立深厚的自下而上的用户喜爱。
You want to build a lot of bottoms up love before you even attempt the B2B emotion or that sales process.
我看到很多初创公司试图同时推进这两方面。
I see a lot of startups try to do both simultaneously.
确实认为这种做法很有挑战性。
I do think that's tricky.
某些领域或许可以这样操作。
Some categories, maybe you can execute on that.
但如果能从专业消费者端入手，建立那种自下而上的喜爱，让人们认可品牌并逐渐信任品牌。
But if you can start with the prosumer side and build that sort of bottoms up love, people recognize the brand, they learn to trust the brand.
当你最终向一家公司销售产品时，内部已经有一些支持者希望你成功。
And then when you're finally actually selling into a company, there's already some internal champions that want you to win.
这样总是会容易得多。
That's always way easier.
当我们开始感受到这一点时，我们就意识到：好吧，我们觉得可以真正启动这个过程，进入这种B2B模式，而且已经有了一些顺风助力。
And the moment we started feeling that was the moment where was like, Okay, we feel like we can actually start this process and going into this sort of B2B motion where there's already some tailwinds.
我们已经有了一些势头。
We have some momentum.
我们并不是完全从零开始的。
We're not just going into this complete cold.
这就是我们一直在寻找的早期信号。
And so that was the sort of early signals we're looking for.
而且我们不想仓促行事。
And then we didn't want to rush into it.
然后你花了很多时间和那些用户交流，了解他们的主要痛点是什么？
Then you spend a lot of time talking to those users, like what are their main points of friction?
这时我们开始意识到，这可能只是当前这个时间点特有的现象，但对于许多企业来说，他们正在寻找为公司解锁AI生产力的方法。
This is where we started recognizing that this might be just unique into this moment in time, but for many businesses, they're looking for ways to unlock AI productivity for their companies.
这些工具超越了ChatGPT，公司每个人都能使用，可以熟悉AI的强大功能，员工之间可以互相培训。
Are tools that go beyond just ChatGPT that everybody at the company can use, that can familiarize themselves with the power of AI, where other employees can train other employees.
而幻灯片恰好是公司几乎每个人都会经常使用的一种格式。
And it just so happens, Slides is one of the formats where almost everybody at the company is using on a very regular basis.
所以现在我们讨论的是，不仅有自下而上的喜爱，还有自上而下的需求：我们需要明天就能用的东西来真正教育广大员工。
So, now we're having the conversation where not only is there the bottoms up love, there's a top down demand for, We need something tomorrow to help really educate our broad employee base.
我认为这两者结合起来，有望让我们更容易进入这个市场，而不会感觉像是在推一块巨石上山。
And I think those two together hopefully will make it just easier for us to enter that market in a way where it doesn't feel like just pushing this massive boulder up a hill.
是的。
Yeah.
我对你提到的自下而上的用户喜爱度非常感兴趣，因为我认为这是每家公司都渴望实现的，但你知道，这不是能刻意制造出来的。
I'm really interested in what you said about the bottoms up user love because I think that's something every company aspires to, but you can't, you know, manufacture to just Right.
要有正确的。
Have Right.
这种优势在多大程度上对你产生了复合效应？
To to what extent has that been like a a compounding advantage for you?
比如，当用户达到数千万量级时，是否会产生某种飞轮效应？
Like, is are there any flywheels that kind of get going as you get users in the tens of millions?
完全同意，没错。
Totally, yeah.
我认为初创企业经常被问到：防御性意味着什么？或者说持久性是什么？
I think oftentimes startups get asked, What does defensibility mean or durability?
我认为初创企业建立防御性有很多途径。
And I think there's many ways for a startup to build defensibility.
其中一种是网络效应，当然品牌也是一种方式。
There's some form of network effects that happens, and then there's certainly brand as a mode.
就网络效应而言，我们并没有真正的直接网络效应——不像社交平台那样。但我们确实存在这种本地网络效应：当获得自下而上的用户喜爱时，用户会自发教导其他用户如何使用Gamma。
On the network effect side, we don't have any, I would say, when it comes to true direct network effects, so not like a social platform, but we do have this local network effect that happens where if you do have that bottoms up love, what happens is you have users that are teaching other users how to use Gamma.
因此每新增一个用户，几乎都会带来社交证明效应。
So every incremental user, there's almost a social proof aspect of it.
最终结果是你成为了行业标准。
And what ends up happening is you become a standard.
你变成了一种人人都想掌握的通用语言，这会产生非常强大的效应。
You become a language that everybody internally wants to learn, and that becomes a very powerful thing.
类似的情况也发生在Cursor这类工具上，当你成为标准后，大家会不假思索地说'直接用Cursor就行了'。
I think similar things happen with tools like Cursor, where you become the standard and it's like, Okay, yeah, no brainer, we're just going to use Cursor.
所以我认为，只有通过获得这种自下而上的用户喜爱，才能真正赢得这种地位。
And so, I think you only earn that by having some of that bottoms up love.
当然，回到品牌建设这一点，如果人们提到AI演示时首先想到的就是Gamma，那对我们来说显然是个极佳的状态。
And then of course, going back to the brand piece of it, if you are top of mind for a category, anytime anybody says AI presentations and all they can think of is Gamma, that's obviously a great place to be for us.
因此，我们希望能成为这样的存在。
And so, for us, we want to be that.
要实现这一点，只能通过持续不断地建立品牌认知，并长期投入其中。
You can only earn that by, of course, building that brand awareness over and over again, and being invested in doing so over a long time horizon.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
关于协作这点，虽然不能完全称之为网络效应，但Gamma文档能如此轻松地分享确实...
And I guess to the point on collaboration, you wouldn't necessarily call this a network effect, but the fact that you can share gammas so easily Yeah.
是个巨大优势。
Is a huge advantage.
我们内部就经常分享Gamma文档，这让我想起Figma如何逐渐取代邮件发送PDF的方式。
I know we share Gammas internally all the time, but it reminds me a bit of Figma and how, you know, they sort of replaced email over time in terms of sending that PDF format.
确实。
Yeah.
我们初创时期其实只有两条准则：
Well, I mean, when we you know, when we're just getting started, we basically just had two mantras.
让创作变得极其简单，让分享变得极其简单。
Make it dead simple to create, dead simple to share.
做到这两点，就能形成良性循环。
If you do that, you complete the flywheel.
所以我们从一开始就确保贯彻这个理念。
And so, we wanted to make sure that was the case from the very beginning.
你们通过设计实现自然传播，并确保显然需要改进一切，但这必须成为你们方法的核心。
You build for that organic virality by design and make sure, obviously, you have to improve everything, but that needs to be fundamental to how you approach it.
是的。
Yeah.
喜欢这点。
Love that.
实际上，这可能是过渡到整体公司建设的好话题。
And and actually, that's probably a good segue into company building overall.
关于Gamma的创立方式有很多故事，尤其是考虑到你们从2020年开始创业。
And there's a lot of lore around Gamma in terms of just how you built this company a bit differently, especially given the fact that you start in 2020.
2020和2021年很多公司的创立方式都大不相同。
A lot of companies in 2020 and 2021 were were built very differently.
通常它们早期就变得臃肿，我认为这与你们和John、James创建Gamma的方式截然相反。
Oftentimes, they got bloated pretty early on, which is, I think, is pretty antithetical to how you and John and James built Gamma.
能详细说说你们早期坚持的这些原则吗？
Can you say more about these kind of principles you had in the early days?
听起来你们在产品方面分享了一些，但Gamma的文化也非常独特重要。
It sound you know, you shared a little bit on the product side, but the culture of Gamma was also very important distinct.
我听说你们有个实时更新的文化手册。
I've heard you talk about having this live culture deck.
多聊聊你们是怎么构思这个的。
Say more about how you guys came up with that.
在能分享的范围内，现在文化手册里都有哪些内容？
What's in that culture deck today to the extent you can share?
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为我们一直努力遵循几个原则。
So a couple of principles I think we've tried to stay true to.
我们内部有个信条：从一开始就要极其缓慢地招聘。
We had this internal mantra around hire painfully slowly from the very beginning.
即使在我们快速增长时，也必须坚持这一点。
And even as we hit a lot of growth, we still have to stay true to that.
这使得我们在业务扩张的同时仍能保持相对精简的团队。
So it's allowed us to maintain relatively lean given our traction.
但最重要的是，创业初期我们就考虑过核心团队的建设。
But I think most importantly, when we first started, we thought about the initial core team.
最初有七八个人都来自Optimizely，我们共事超过五年。
There was seven or eight of us actually that all came from Optimizely, and we had worked together for five plus years.
彼此间已建立了信任基础，我们把这七人视为核心团队。
And for us, there was already the sort of foundation of trust, what we really thought about was we wanted that initial seven of us, we thought of that as like our MVP crew.
我们需要这个团队能独立完成产品从研发到上线的全流程。
We needed that group to be everything we needed to ship a product end to end.
这样我们既能开发产品，也能进行营销，甚至由我亲自负责销售。
So we can create the product, we can also market the product, and then for me, be able to even sell the product.
组建这七人团队就是为了让我们能快速行动。
That initial seven, we wanted that to be there so that we would be able to move incredibly fast.
那么实际运作是怎样的呢？
So, what did that look like in practice?
我作为联合创始人之一，与首席产品官John、首席技术官James共同创业。
Me as one of the co founders, John, CPO co founder, James, CTO co founder.
然后我们的第一位聘用人员是设计主管，负责产品设计。
Then our first hire was our head of design, product design.
我们接下来的聘用是第一位前端工程师，然后我们又雇用了两名后端工程师。
Our next hire was our first front end engineer, and then we hired two back end engineers.
所以再次强调，这就是能够端到端构建产品的MVP团队。
And so again, going back to this is the MVP crew that could build end to end.
我们可以在过程中测试许多不同想法，这让我们在第一年能够以惊人速度推进。
We could test a lot of different ideas along the way, and allowed us to move incredibly fast in that first year.
我们不需要等待下一位成员加入。
We didn't have to wait for the next hire to come aboard.
我们已经拥有了所需的一切。
We had everything we needed.
我认为这种基础——找对最初的七个人——让我们形成了核心基因，使我能够轻松想象如何招聘接下来的七人或十人，并复制这种基因。
I think that sort of foundation, getting that first seven right, allowed us to have this core DNA where I could easily imagine hiring the next seven or next 10, and just trying to replicate that DNA.
我记得Brian Chesky谈过这点，你确实需要找对最初的10人或100人，因为你是在为后续加入的团队设定蓝图，让他们都秉持相同的价值观、原则，并怀着对建设目标的同等抱负，这样一切都会变得更容易。
I think Brian Chesky talks about this where you really want to get that first 10 right or first 100 right, because what you're trying to do is set the blueprint for the next set of folks that join, so that they all share the same values, same principles, hopefully the same level of ambition for what you want to build, and then everything becomes easier.
如果你知道整个团队都同心协力，由一群怀有使命感的成员组成，那么一切皆有可能。
If you know that team is all in it together, team full of hopefully missionaries, anything is possible.
所以对我们来说，找对最初的七人真的非常非常关键。
And so for us, getting that first seven right was really, really critical.
即便在那之后，我们始终坚持'极度缓慢'的招聘理念，这让我们能始终关注人才质量而非数量。
And then even after that, having this notion of hiring painfully slowly, just allowed us to always focus on the quality of the people we're bringing in and not the quantity.
有时当你达到产品市场契合点时，会忍不住设定激进的招聘目标。
Sometimes when you hit product market fit, there's this temptation to just set these really ambitious hiring targets.
而当你设定了招聘目标，这个目标本身就成了目的。
And when you set the hiring targets, the hiring target becomes the goal.
最终目标就变成了达成那个数字。
And the goal is to hit that target.
我们的目标不再是雇佣最优秀的人才。
The target is no longer to hire the best people.
因此我们一直在思考，是的，我们需要发展，需要继续建设团队，但我们绝不会降低Gamma的入门标准。
And so we've always wanted to know, yeah, we need to grow, we need to continue to build a team, but we're never going to lower the bar for who we let into the door at Gamma.
这一直是我们最优先考虑的事项。
And so that's always been top of mind.
我们遇到过许多候选人，可能在技术上非常出色，或者在文化上很契合，但无法同时满足两方面要求。
We've met many candidates that are maybe strong super technically, or maybe good culturally, a good fit, but weren't both.
如果无法同时满足这两点，他们就不是我们Gamma会合作的对象。
And if they're not both, then they're not someone that we're going to work with at Gamma.
这确实很困难，因为诱惑始终存在——我们必须持续扩张。
And it becomes hard because again, the temptation always is, Hey, we have to keep growing.
你们正处于这个增长飞轮上。
You're on this growth flywheel.
不完成招聘目标就无法实现那些增长。
You can't hit those without hitting the hiring target.
我认为关键在于，如果你能尽力抵制这种诱惑，忠于自己的核心原则，才有机会不断复制成功的DNA。
And I think that's the part where if you can try your best to resist that temptation, be honest to your own core principles, that gives you a chance of actually replicating the DNA over and over.
嗯。
Yeah.
你刚才说产品设计主管是最高优先级，我们听说——不知道这个数字是否准确——你们团队25%都是设计师？
So you said the head of product design is higher number one, and we've heard, I don't know if this number is right, but 25% of your team is designers?
是的，在初期是这样。
Yeah, in beginning.
现在比例应该低一些了，但有段时间我们团队四分之一都是产品设计师，这在初创企业中并不常见。
I think it's a little bit less now, but for a while, it was a quarter of our team was product designers, but also they don't think is common, maybe amongst startups.
对我们而言，我们非常重视这点——在很多方面，AI公司都在尝试创造新的界面领域和用户体验。
And yeah, for us, we cared a lot about, in many ways, AI companies are trying to invent new surface areas, new user experiences.
我认为没有一个真正强大的产品设计团队是不可能实现的。
I don't think that's possible without a really strong product design team.
我们的设计主管扎克从一开始就和我们在一起，直到今天仍在团队中。
And Zach, who's our head of design, he's been with us since the beginning, he's still with us today.
说实话，如果没有他，没有真正深入理解用户想要完成的目标，这一切都不可能实现。
And I honestly think, yeah, without him and being able to really deeply understand what the user is trying to accomplish, that matters so much.
我们很高兴在那个团队上投入了这么多。
We're glad we invested so much that team.
我认为这对我们来说，最终转化成了更好的整体产品体验。
And I think for us, it's translated into hopefully a better just overall product experience.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
我...我知道。
I I know.
关于设计这个话题，我觉得现在'品味'这个概念被过度使用了。
I guess on the design topic, there's this I feel like it's overused now, the the concept of taste.
人们总说开发者品味、研究员品味之类的。
People are like, hey, developer taste, researcher taste.
但你可以把设计视为最初的品味仲裁者。你认为Gamma内部对'好品味'有统一的标准吗？
But you could kinda think of design as the original arbiter of of Do you do you think there's a consistent sense of what good taste is at Gamma?
我这么问是因为在Gamma上可以构建的内容具有惊人的多样性。
And I ask that because there's an incredible diversity of what you can build on Gamma.
但至少在我使用时，能明显感受到那些自动化的设计选择让我的演示看起来非常精美。
And yet when I use it at least, there's sort of clear design choices that have been made that are automated that make my presentation look really beautiful.
所以我很好奇，Gamma的'品味'具体是什么样的？你们是如何平衡这两个有时相互冲突的原则的？
And so I'm curious, like, what does taste look like at Gamma, and how do you balance those two sometimes conflicting principles?
哦，是的，这是个很棒的问题。
Oh, yeah, it's a great question.
我想先说明一点，当人们谈论品味时，他们往往只考虑视觉效果。
I'd start by just saying, when people say taste, they oftentimes just think about only the visuals.
就像是在问，视觉呈现是什么样？
It's like, what is the visual output?
我经常用餐厅来类比——当你走进一家餐厅，从进门被接待、安排座位、拿到菜单、点完菜、食物上桌、享用美食到最后结账。
I oftentimes, the analogy I have more is, if you think about a restaurant, you go into a restaurant, the moment you go in, you're greeted, you're seated at your table, you're handed the menu, you finally get placed in your order, the food comes, it's good, and then you get your check.
整个端到端的体验必须充满魔力，对吧？
The end to end experience needs to be magical, right?
如果有人直接冲进来把盘子摔在你桌上，就算食物看起来不错，你大概也不会推荐给朋友。
If someone just came in and threw a plate down on your table, and even if it looked good, you probably wouldn't go back and tell your friends.
所以品味实际上关乎整个体验过程。
So taste is really thinking about that entire experience.
对我们而言，从你登入产品的那一刻起，直到你与同事分享内容时，我们都希望这个流程令人愉悦。
The moment you walk into the door, for us, the moment you log into our product to the moment you're actually sharing something with somebody else or your colleague, we want that to feel great.
这一系列用户体验的累积效应，应该让你觉得不向朋友推荐都难。
And the set of user experiences, the accumulation of all of that, we want that to feel like something where, again, it's a no brainer for you to tell your friends about.
这是个如此美妙的体验。
It's such a delightful experience.
我认为这正是产品设计师发挥价值的地方。
And I think that's really where product designers come into play.
他们深刻理解用户经历的整个旅程。
They deeply understand that entire journey that a user is going on.
视觉效果当然是重要组成部分。
And visuals are a big part of it.
当然，如果食物卖相糟糕或难以下咽，无论如何都不会有人再来光顾。
Certainly if the food doesn't look good or tastes horrible, no one's gonna come back regardless.
但我想说这只是这段更大旅程的一部分。
But I'd say only one part of this bigger journey.
因此我们考虑了很多端到端的环节。
And so we think about a lot of that end to end.
我们不希望Gamma像现有工具那样——也许我要放弃这个食物比喻了——更像是一个自助餐。
We don't want Gamma to be I think the incumbent tools are much more like a Maybe I'm gonna kill this sort of food analogy here, but Or much more like a buffet.
你走进去自己挑选想吃的东西，装盘带走食用，一天就这样结束了。
You go in and you figure out what you want to grab, throw it on your plate, go back and eat it, And that's the end of the day.
我们想为你设计这种体验。
We want to design the experience for you.
所以我们希望这种体验感觉是精心设计的，让你作为终端用户仍有选择权，但你得到的一定是精品。
And so, we want that sort of experience to feel well crafted so that you still have as an end user, you choose what you want, but when you get what you order, it's gonna be great.
我们保证你会获得优质体验。
You're guaranteed it's gonna be great.
因此我们正朝着这个愿景努力：能为你精选内容，让一切毫不费力，最终希望它能带来愉悦和魔力。
And so we're trying to move towards that vision where we can help curate a lot of it for you, we can make it feel effortless, and at the end the day, hopefully it just feels delightful and magical.
这确实是我们心中的终极目标。
And that's really the ultimate goal we have in mind.
我想回到你刚才关于招聘的观点，本有句名言——大概十五年前说的，至今仍很适用。
I guess going back to this point that you were making on hiring, Ben has this great quote from, man, I think fifteen years ago that's aged really well.
对。
Yeah.
如果你自己都没做过这份工作，怎么知道该招聘什么样的人？
You know, if you haven't done the job yourself, how do you know what you're hiring for?
没错。
Yep.
我认为这句话历久弥新的原因是——虽然过程中有些波折——因为曾经可能有这样一种观点...
And the reason I think it's aged well, but there's kind of been twists and turns along the way, is that, there were there was probably a school of thought where was like, hey.
你们的产品已经契合市场需求。
You have product market fit.
立即聘请专家来接手这项工作，而不是自己花费大量时间去做。
Immediately go hire the expert and help you just take that over, versus doing it yourself for for a good bit of time.
我认为，你某种程度上已经公开承认，早期在Gamma时你做过一些本无经验的工作。
And I think, you know, you you sort of got an other on, you know, on the record for saying there are jobs that you did in the early days for Gamma that maybe you didn't have experience doing.
其中有些工作我现在还在做。
Some of them I'm still doing today.
确实如此。
Exactly.
创始人模式。
Founder mode.
不过或许可以多分享些你对'先亲自做再招人'这一理念的亲身经历。
But maybe share a little bit more about your experience with this concept of do the job yourself before you hire for it.
是的，我完全认同本的观点。
Yeah, I'm fully aligned, yeah, with what Ben said.
回顾'缓慢而痛苦地招聘'，其中痛苦的部分其实很重要。
I think going back to hire painfully slowly, the pain part of it is pretty important.
作为组织，你们实际在哪个环节感受到了痛苦？
Where are you actually feeling the pain as an organization?
这时你才会开始考虑：或许我们需要招聘或建立这个职能了。
And that's where you start looking for, okay, maybe we do need to hire somebody or build out that function.
对我来说，早期很多痛点集中在市场营销领域。
For me, a lot of it early days was around marketing.
我出身于财务和运营背景。
I come from a finance background, operations.
我从未做过市场营销。
I had never done marketing.
那么好的营销是什么样子的？
And so what does good marketing look like?
我想在我们出去招聘和组建团队之前，先好好了解一下这份工作。
I wanted to kind of appreciate the job before we went out and hired and built out a team.
所以一开始，当我们开始做网红营销时，每个网红都是我自己亲自对接的。
And so, in the beginning, when we started doing things like influencer marketing, I was onboarding every single influencer myself.
哇。
Wow.
对吧？
Right?
我想确保网红能成为你们团队的延伸。
I wanted to make sure influencers are going to be an extension of your team.
如果你做的是B2B业务，他们本质上就相当于你的销售团队。
They are essentially the equivalent of your sales team if you're B2B.
所以我需要确保他们能讲好我们的故事。
And so I needed to make sure that they could tell our story well.
我不会规定他们如何讲述故事，但他们需要理解Gamma。
I wasn't going to be prescriptive in how they tell the story, but they needed to understand Gamma.
我想确保他们得到VIP级别的入职培训，这样他们才能充分理解产品，用他们自己的声音以最有影响力的方式讲述我们的故事。
I wanted to make sure they got white gloves onboarding so that they could fully appreciate the product, so that they could tell our story in their voice in the most impactful way.
这些事情我本可以轻松雇人来组建网红营销团队，因为它已经在运作了，但那样我可能就无法体会所有的细微差别。
And so those are things I could have easily just hired somebody to build out the influencer marketing team because it was working already, but then I don't think I would have appreciated all the nuances.
即便如此，这让我开始思考自己是否也要成为创作者，更定期地在领英和推特上发帖。
Even doing so, it allowed me to think about even become a creator myself, posting more regularly on LinkedIn and Twitter.
然后你就会进入这种思维模式：好吧，成为创作者意味着什么？
And then you go into the mindset of, Okay, what does it mean to be a creator?
嗯，我需要学习如何成为更好的文案写手。
Well, I need to learn how to be a better copywriter.
我需要了解优秀钩子和糟糕钩子之间的区别是什么？
And I need to learn what's the difference between a good hook and a bad hook?
有什么方法能吸引观众？
What's a way to engage an audience?
当你扩展营销职能时，这些事情最终会变得极其重要。
And those are all things that ends up becoming super important as you are scaling up a marketing function.
当你最终面试加入营销团队的人选时，他们是否在某些方面能提升你？
And then when you're finally interviewing people to join the marketing team, are they up leveling you in some way?
如果他们甚至还不如你，而你基本上只是自学成才，那可能就不太合适了。
If they're not even as good as you and you basically just learned it yourself, then okay, well, that's probably not going be a great fit.
但现在我至少涉猎过，我能提出更好的问题，也更清楚优秀的标准是什么。
But now that I've at least dabbled in it, I can ask better questions, and I have a better understanding of what great looks like.
我也知道要超越平庸的标准有多难。
I also know how hard it is to overcome the bar of mediocrity.
你可能会被平庸吞噬，然后安于现状。
You can get sucked there and just be okay.
卓越需要付出大量努力，往往需要多年时间才能达成。
Greatness takes a lot of work, many times, many years to get that.
因此，我认为这提高了我们寻找人才的标准。
And so, I think it just raised my bar of who do we even look for?
当你真正感受到痛苦时，你会希望用最优质的方案来消除这种痛苦。
And when it goes back to when you're actually feeling the pain, you want to be able to put out that pain with the very, very best option out there.
我认为只有当你真正开始理解它时，这才有可能实现。
And I think that's only possible when you actually start understanding it yourself.
是的。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Totally.
或许可以回到你关于创始人主导营销的观点，这一点我真的很喜欢。
Maybe to tie that back to your point on founder led marketing, which which I really loved.
你是最近几支发布视频中的明星人物。
You are the star of one of the recent launch videos.
我当时就想，等等。
I was like, wait.
这是请的专业演员吗？
Is this a paid actor?
哦，不是。
Oh, no.
是Grant本人。
It's Grant.
你表现得非常出色。
You were amazing.
关于你提到的主动展现自己——不仅是Gamma公司，更是作为创始人兼CEO的Grant本人，你是如何考虑这种直接触达的决策过程的？
And, you know, to your point on putting yourself out there, not just Gamma the company, but Grant as founder co cofounder CEO, how did you think about the go direct process?
在a16z我们始终认为，当创始人能够站出来，将公司和产品推向台前，并将其与人们真正关心、需要的事物以及痛点联系起来时，这种力量非常强大。
And, you know, we we think it's very powerful at a 16 z when a founder can go out, bring your company and product to the forefront, and connect it to the zeitgeist of what people actually care about and need and what their pain points are.
但你是如何决定踏上这条路的？
But how did you decide on this journey?
或许对其他正在考虑'我是否应该直接触达'的创始人来说——
And maybe for founders out there who are also thinking about, do I go direct?
这对我来说并不自然。
It's not natural to me.
通常中间会有多层传播团队。
Usually, there's layers of comms in between.
你当时的决策过程是怎样的？
What was that decision making process for you?
是的，我认为有几个不同的因素在推动这件事。
Yeah, I mean, think there's a few different things driving this.
其中之一就是，我们内部经常讨论的一个价值观——千万别无聊。
One was just, we talk about internally one of our values around just don't be boring.
所以我们发布的很多内容只是为了找点乐子，玩得开心。
And so a lot of the content we put out there is just to have a little bit of fun and be playful.
我还认为创始人确实有责任担当品牌管家的角色，对吧？
And I also think it's a responsibility for the founders to really be the sort of steward of what is the brand, right?
如果你都不在乎这个品牌，就更不会有人在乎了。
If you don't care about the brand, nobody else will.
没有人会像你那样在乎这个品牌，因为这是你从零开始一手创立的。
Nobody will ever care enough as much about the brand as probably you do, because this is like, you've created this from the ground up.
所以即使公司规模扩大，我们依然喜欢保持一些趣味性。
And so for us, even as we get bigger, we like to have a little bit fun.
我认为我参与这些视频拍摄，就是为了确保品牌形象的一致性。
I think me being part of some of these videos just ensures that, what does the brand represent?
我们始终认为品牌和文化是一体两面，所以我们同样重视企业文化，而文化就是我们的团队。能把这种精神融入品牌对外形象中，我觉得非常令人振奋。
It's really, we always think about brand and culture being two sides of the same coin, and so for us, we care a lot about our culture as well, and our culture is our team, and so being able to confuse some of that into the brand as well, the external representation, I think has just been energizing.
就我个人而言，与创意团队合作确实让我充满活力。
Personally, for me, working with our creative team, it really does energize me.
他们太有创意了，能想出我永远做不到的点子。哪怕只是参与其中扮演个小角色——当个客串演员，他们让我演什么我就演什么。
They're just so creative, and they dream up things that I could never do on my own, and to be able to play even just a small role of that, I'm gonna be a cameo, an actor, whatever they want me to do, I'll do it.
希望我们能长期保持这种状态。
And I think, yeah, hopefully, we can preserve that for a long time.
我认为这正是我们团队的特别之处。
But, yeah, that's part of, I think, what's make makes our team special.
我们想用个有趣的问题收尾，就是GammaRamas这个主题——其实第一次听到这个词时，我们都没想到该用它作为内部代号。
Well, we thought we'd end on a fun question, and it's sort of this theme of GammaRamas, which we didn't even know, the first time we heard that, we should call it that internally.
但这个问题实际上需要我们所有人来回答，所以大家都得回答。
But we this is actually gonna be a question for all of us, so we all have to answer this.
但你最近制作或挑选的一个有趣的Gamma是什么？
But what was the last Gamma that you made or pick an interesting one?
以及你个人是如何使用Gamma的？
And and how do you personally use Gamma?
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，这个问题很棒。
Well, that's a great one.
哦，关于即将到来的GammaRama，我在考虑的一个话题是，现在关于长寿运动的讨论很多。
Oh, for an upcoming GammaRama, one of the topics I was thinking about, I think there's a lot of talk around the longevity movement right now.
所以我确实想揭开其中的一些神秘面纱，同时也想了解人们普遍认为重要的主题是什么。
And so I did want to kind of demystify some of that, and also just what are the common themes around what are people saying that are important.
我觉得随着年龄增长，尤其是有了两个年幼的孩子后，光是跟上他们的步伐就意味着我必须投资于健康、体育锻炼这些事情，这些都至关重要。
I think definitely as I get older, I have two young kids, just even trying to keep up with them just means I have to invest in things like just being healthier, and physical activity, all that stuff matters a ton.
所以，我打算在这方面整理一些内容。
So, I'm I'm gonna try to put something together there.
我觉得这是个...嗯。
And I think it's a yeah.
挺有趣的话题。
Kind of a fun topic.
完全同意。
Totally.
我
I
有个稍微无聊点的话题。
have a slightly more boring topic.
其实我有两个，我要稍微取巧一下。
I actually have two I'm gonna cheat a little.
我有两个特别喜欢用Gamma的场景。
I have two use cases that I love Gamma for.
其一是像风投常做的那样，我们会花几个月深入研究某个领域，并围绕它形成一套理论。
One of them is, as VCs do, like, we'll go deep into a space for months and kind of form a thesis around it.
比如语音代理就是我花了很多时间研究的领域。
So, like, voice agents is a space I spend a lot of time in.
所以我会发布一份很长的Gamma文档，
And so I'll kind of publish a very long Gamma,
嗯，对。
like Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的，几十页幻灯片那种。
You know, dozens of slides.
我觉得用Gamma做这些最棒的是它的分析功能。
And I think what I really like about using Gamma for those is the analytics.
首先是发布特别便捷。
Well, first, the ease of publication.
打开查看都很简单。
Like, it's so easy to open and check out.
我可以把它放在推特简介里。
I can put it in my Twitter bio.
这非常方便。
That's very easy.
然后我还能查看数据，了解人们最关注这份超长报告的哪些部分。
But then I can actually click in and see, like, what part of this extremely long thesis are people engaging with.
比如，我该多写些什么内容呢？
Like, what should I write more about?
我该多发布些什么内容呢？
What should I publish more about?
这是个很好的信号。
It's a great signal.
另一个极端是受众规模小得多。
Other end of the spectrum, much smaller audience.
当我们真正想与其他初创公司交流并分享为何对他们感到兴奋、从他们身上学到了什么等内容时，我经常使用Gammas。
I use Gammas a lot for when we're actually trying to talk to other startups and share why we're excited about them, what we've learned about them, all of that.
回到16:9的洞察点，我认为幻灯片尺寸的灵活性以及你能以比网站更有条理、却同样内容丰富的方式打包发送内容，这点非常非常特别。
And for that, the going back to the 16 by nine insight, I think the flexible size in slides and the fact that you can almost package and send something that feels more structured in a good way than a website, but feels as kind of content rich is, like, very, very special.
太酷了。
Super cool.
我也用于一些相同场景，就不重复了。
I use it for some of those same use cases, so I won't mention those.
说个私人用途吧，我每年都和大学好友组织一次聚会，因为都是书呆子，我们连聚会都有议程表。
But maybe a personal one, I do an annual retreat with my best friends from college, and we have an agenda for this retreat because we're total nerds.
今年我们把议程做进了Gamma，延续了我们用卡片记录议题的传统——比如育儿、职业等等主题。
And this year, we put it in Gamma, and this is kind of our ongoing tradition of, you know, here are the here's here are the cards, here are the agenda topics for, you know, motherhood, career, etcetera.
有趣的是当用于私人场景时，你能明显感受到它与工作的共通性，这简直就是将想法落地的理想方式。
And it's it's so interesting because you can kind of see it when you use it for personal reasons, the tie to work and how this is just sort of the ideal way of putting ideas into reality.
所以
So
有用户创建了毕业纪念册，算是给家人的礼物。
We had a user create a graduation scrapbook, I guess, a gift for one of their family members.
特别温馨。
And it was really cute.
照片真多啊。
There's so many pictures.
这些照片跨越了几代人共享，从祖父母到父母再到孩子。能参与其中一些特别时刻，即使不是核心商业用途，也感觉非常珍贵。
It was one that got shared across generations, like grandparents, parents, kids, and it feels like it's pretty special to be part of some of those moments too, even if they're not core business use cases.
但他们选择用Gamma来记录这些珍贵时刻，让这些记忆得以延续并在家族中分享，看到这个确实让人感到非常开心。
But the fact that they chose Gamma for, like, a pretty special moment and something that's gonna live on and, like, shared across the It was definitely a fun one to see.
非常感谢您今天能来参加我们的节目，Grant。
Well, thank you so much for being here with us, Grant.
这次对话非常愉快，我们很荣幸能邀请到您。
This was such a fun conversation, and we're thrilled to have you here.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
太棒了。
It was great.
感谢收听本期a16z播客节目。
Thanks for listening to this episode of the a 16 z podcast.
如果喜欢本期节目，请记得点赞、评论、订阅、给我们评分或留言，并分享给亲朋好友。
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For more episodes, go to YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify.
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Follow us on x at a sixteen z, and subscribe to our Substack at a16z.substack.com.
再次感谢收听，我们下期节目再见。
Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.
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As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only, should not be taken as legal business, tax, or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a sixteen z fund.
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For more details, including a link to our investments, please see a 16z.com forward slash disclosures.
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