监控局势 #3：尼克·兰德是谁？

尼克·格兰德的作品充满活力感，非常富有感染力。他的写作风格强烈而平实，既具挑衅性，又刻意营造宏大叙事。

Nick Gland's work is very vibey. It's really vibey. He has an intense, prosaic writing style that is provocative, intentionally grandiose.

当前正在发生的是：新技术不断涌现，催生大量需求，暴露出我们对该类资源的供给严重不足。于是人们开始建设大量供给设施以满足新需求。接着又会有新技术诞生，释放更多需求，进而暴露尚未建设的供给缺口——如此循环往复，这就是推动经济繁荣、增长和GDP提升的飞轮效应。

What's happening is new technology is being created, which is leading to a ton of demand for a thing, which is exposing the fact that we don't have a bunch of supply for that thing. And so now a bunch of supply is getting built to unlock new demand. And so new technology will get created, which will unlock new demand, which will expose more supply that hasn't been built and and the flywheel will go, and that's where we get, you know, prosperity and and economic growth and, you know, GDP.

这才是最纯粹的美国精神。

America at the finest.

没错。伙计，这就是全部意义所在。我们在这里建立美国公司，正是为了这个。

Exactly. Like, this is what it's all about, baby. This is why we're here, building companies in America.

2025年，电网正因不堪重负而濒临崩溃。数据中心成倍增长，家用电池需求激增，能源与科技的界限逐渐模糊。在《监测局势》第三集中，我邀请到a16z普通合伙人凯瑟琳·博伊尔和亚伦·普莱斯莱特，以及Base Power创始人兼CEO扎克·戴尔，共同探讨能源未来。我们将深入探讨：如何实现本地发电平价化、人们对数据中心建设的主要认知误区，以及切实修复美国电网的可能方案。随后凯瑟琳还将与我和a16z的埃迪·拉扎林一起，解析影响硅谷思想地下圈的哲学家尼克·兰德。

In 2025, the grid is cracking under its own weight. Data centers are multiplying, home batteries are surging, and the line between energy and tech is starting to blur. On this third episode of Monitoring the Situation, I sit down with the a16z general partners Catherine Boyle and Aaron Pricewright, along with Zach Dell, the founder and CEO of Base Power, to talk about the future of energy. We dig into how to make local power generation affordable, what most people get wrong about the data center build out, and how we might actually fix The US electricity grid. Then Catherine and I are joined by a sixteen z's Eddie Lazarin to discuss the philosopher shaping parts of Silicon Valley's intellectual underground, Nick Land.

让我们开始吧。

Let's get into it.

扎克，欢迎来到《监测局势》。

Zach, welcome to Monitoring the Situation.

谢谢邀请。我很高兴能来到这里。

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

首先恭喜你们完成C轮融资。对于不太了解的观众，能否先介绍一下公司的使命，然后我们再谈谈当前的发展状况？

So congrats on the Series C. For people who are unfamiliar, why don't you explain the company mission, and we'll get into the state of it today?

好的。BASE是一家能源科技公司，致力于为美国提供经济可靠的电力。大约三年前我们创立了这家企业，专注于为德克萨斯州的房主安装家用电池——当电网正常运行时将这些电池作为电网资源使用，在电网断电时则将电池容量返还给房主以保障家庭用电。我们同时还向房主售电，因此每月能为用户节省10%到20%的电费开支。

Yeah. BASE is an energy technology company working to bring affordable and reliable power to America. So we started the business almost three years ago now, focused on Texas homeowners installing batteries on their homes and using those batteries as a grid resource when the grid is up and running and then giving that battery capacity back to the homeowner when the grid goes out to protect their home from power outages. And we also sell power to the homeowner. So we're able to save people on the order of 10 to 20% a month on their electricity bills.

这就是我们的起点——使用现成硬件搭配全定制软件。在过去两年半里，我们逐步构建了垂直整合战略：现在自主设计生产电池，通过自有安装团队部署，持有电池资产并在批发市场运营。目前我们正进军其他市场，比如与受监管公用事业公司合作，将我们的技术方案出售给他们，帮助其实现配电网络降本增效。简而言之，我们的使命是通过垂直整合的科技手段，让全民用上更便宜、更可靠的电力。

That was kinda how we got started using off the shelf hardware, all custom built software. And over the course of the last two and a half years, we've really built out this vertically integrated strategy where we're now building our own battery, designing them, manufacturing them through our own installations, owning them, operating these batteries in the wholesale markets. And now we're starting to enter other markets. So we have a regulated utility partnership model where we take our technology, our hardware, our software, and we sell these utilities and help them do the same thing, lower cost, increase reliability on the distribution grid. So, really, the mission here is bring down the cost of electricity for all, make power more affordable, more reliable, do it through technology, vertical integration.

嗯，这就是个大致情况。

Yeah. That's a quick high level.

我感觉人们经常讨论

I feel like people talk

数据中心发电和各种新型能源——是建更多燃气电厂还是发展太阳能、核能，以及如何让发电端更接近用电端。但能否谈谈为什么储能技术在抑制电价方面如此关键？

a lot about generation with data centers and all new types of power. And is it more gas plants or is it more solar or nuclear and pulling generation closer to the actual usage? But maybe talk to us about why energy storage is such an important part of the puzzle in keeping electricity prices down.

是的。所以，归根结底还是价格问题。对吧？电力是一种商品，最优质的电子就是最便宜的电子。谈到电价时，它其实由两个部分组成。

Yeah. So, again, it all comes back to price. Right? Electricity is a commodity, and the best electron is the cheapest electron. And when you think about electricity prices, there are two components to price.

一部分是发电成本，另一部分是输电成本。过去二十年间，发电成本实际上大幅下降，主要得益于太阳能的发展。当然也有风能的贡献，但主要是太阳能。对吧？虽然发电成本降低了，但电力的总成本却上升了，这意味着输电成本——即配电和传输的成本——出现了显著增长。

One is the cost to generate the electron, and the other component is the cost to move the electron. And over the last twenty years, actually, the cost to generate electrons has gone down very significantly largely due to the build out of solar. Wind as well, but mostly solar. Right? So cost to generate power has gone down, but the total cost of the electron has gone up, which means that the cost to move electrons, the cost of distribution and transmission, has gone up really significantly.

这是因为我们的基础设施正在老化，这些电线杆和线路不断损坏，需要更换。因此需要大量资本支出用于建设输配电基础设施。而我们意识到，电线杆和线路是在空间维度传输电力，而电池则是在时间维度转移电力。对吧？实际上，电池加软件是更高效的替代方案，在能源领域有个学术术语叫NWA——非导线替代方案（Non-Wires Alternatives），可不是那个说唱组合NWA。

And this is because our infrastructure is aging, and these poles and wires are breaking, and they need to get replaced. And so there's a lot of CapEx that has to go into building out this transmission distribution infrastructure. And what we realized is poles and wires move power through space, and batteries move power through time. Right? So batteries and software are actually a way more efficient alternative, and there's a kind of academic term for this in NWA, non wires alternatives, not the other NWA.

这是降低电力成本非常有效的机制，因为通过现场部署电池，你既能捕获发电成本的下降，又能帮助降低输电成本。我们在负荷中心和并网点部署电池，从而构建更高效的系统。

And it's a very effective mechanism for driving down the cost of electricity because you can capture the decrease in the cost to generate the power by really also helping bring down the cost to move the power by having batteries on-site. So we deploy batteries where the load is, where interconnection is, and that makes for a much more efficient system.

我能插个问题吗？我想回到你的创业起点，你的处境非常独特。再提醒我们一下公司创立时间，其实在BASE成立之前，你对能源问题的思考已经持续很久了。我好奇这是否部分源于你在AI领域的深耕——比如ChatGPT在2022年11月迎来爆发时，你正是Thrive资本的投资者。

So could I pop up for a second because I want to get back to your origin story, which I feel like you were in a very unique position. Remind us again when you started the company, but you had been thinking about energy even a lot longer before BASE was founded. And I was wondering if part of it was that you were spending so much time in AI. You know, it's like ChatGPT had the big moment in November 2022. You were an investor at Thrive.

你当时是如何预见到能源将成为AI革命的关键组成部分？又是什么让你断定——尤其是在消费端——我们必须立即布局这个领域，特别是考虑到能源需求即将迎来爆发式增长？

Like, how were you thinking about energy being such an important component of this AI revolution? And what made you say, okay, like, this is where we need to be spending time, especially on the consumer side, just given how energy is about to energy needs are about to explode?

确实。这对我来说是长达五年多的积累过程。其实从大学时代我就开始参与能源项目，当时埋头研究如何利用厌氧消化技术，将人类排泄物转化为沼气，为世界偏远地区提供低成本能源和卫生解决方案。说得委婉些，那是个又脏又累又棘手的问题。

Yeah. I mean, this was really a five plus year buildup for me. I started working on energy projects in college, actually. And I was kind of really in the weeds working to develop a way to do anaerobic digestion to turn human waste into biogas in rural parts of the world to create low cost energy and also a sanitation solution. And that was a sticky, painful, messy problem to say the very least.

但那可以说是我初次涉足能源领域。后来大学快毕业时，我试图促成一项交易，去夏威夷租用大量火山岩地，在上面安装太阳能板，将电力卖回给政府。我跑了好几家银行寻求融资，他们反应都是：什么？你还在上大学，谁来管理这个项目？

But that was kind of my first foray into energy. And then actually at the end of college, I I tried to put together this deal to go lease a bunch of lava rock in Hawaii and put solar panels on it and sell the power back to the government and went to a bunch of banks to try to get financing. And they were like, what? You're in college. Who's gonna manage this?

我当时想，好吧，有道理。也许这确实不现实。后来我去了黑石集团，在私募股权团队工作，研究了大量能源基础设施项目。正是在黑石期间，我深刻意识到这个范式转变——

And I like, okay. Fair point. Maybe this doesn't make sense. Then I ended up going to Blackstone, and I was on the private equity team there and looked at a bunch of stuff all across energy infrastructure. And I think, really, when I was at Blackstone, that's where this paradigm shift hit me, where I saw, okay.

过去五十年的能源格局由煤炭和天然气定义，而未来五十年将由太阳能和储能主导。这意味着边际兆瓦级电力、低成本边际电力都将来自太阳能+储能。这将彻底改变我们能源基础设施的形态、运作方式以及价值链构建模式。这个认知深植我心，后来我离开黑石加入Thrive Capital，亲眼见证了那些从由非技术驱动的老牌巨头手中夺取市场份额的创新企业典范——

The last five decades of energy have been defined by coal and then natural gas, and the next five decades are gonna be defined by solar and storage. And, really, what that means is the marginal megawatt, the low cost marginal megawatt is going to be solar and storage. And that is gonna change the way our energy infrastructure looks and works and the way the value chain is kind of built out. And this really stuck with me, and then I left Blackstone, obviously, enjoying Thrive Capital. And I got to see really exemplars for companies that were innovating and taking market share from big, incumbent dominated industries that were not engineering led or technology driven, r and d focused.

最典型的例子就是SpaceX之于航空航天、Anduril之于国防领域。这个关于能源的洞见始终萦绕着我：既然范式转变即将到来，而能源作为经济中最后未被颠覆的重要领域，我们为何不能像那些公司改造各自行业那样重塑能源产业？

Obviously, SpaceX and aerospace and Andoril and defense being the kind of core examples. And this energy thesis kind of stuck with me. It was like, well, this paradigm shift is coming. Energy is really the last great part of the economy that's gone undisrupted. Why can't we go do to energy what those companies did to those respective industries?

后来在Thrive任职末期，我们成为OpenAI的重要投资者。正如Aaron你所说，我们开始看到数据中心建设浪潮汹涌而来，意识到正身处一代人仅见一次的电力需求激增之中。如今这股热潮已达顶峰，德克萨斯、北弗吉尼亚乃至全美都在疯狂建设数据中心。真正的制约因素不是芯片，而是电力。

And then, of course, towards the end of my time at Thrive, we became large investors in OpenAI. And to your point, Aaron, started to see this massive tidal wave coming of this data center build out, and I think found ourselves in the midst of a generational increase in electricity demand. And now that has just reached a total fever pitch, and we're seeing this insane build out of data centers in Texas, you know, in in Northern Virginia, obviously, which we've having for a long time and really across the whole country. And the constraint is is electrons. It's not chips.

对吧？整个经济现在都受制于电力供应，这是前所未有的新现象。因此公用事业公司前所未有地欢迎新技术、新解决方案，这为我们提供了绝佳的创业机遇。

Right? Like, the whole economy has been kind of constrained by electrons now, which is a new phenomenon. And so utilities are uniquely open to new technologies, new solutions. And so that's been a really awesome opportunity for us to build into.

说实话，我感觉我们正处在——或者说刚刚开局——美国历史上最大规模工业建设浪潮的起点，其规模将超越我们所见过的所有工业建设总和。这对我们美国活力派投资者是天大好消息。毕竟我们没有健全的工业基础，没有强大的军工复合体等等。所以真要感谢人工智能迫使我们解决这些棘手挑战——如果我们要想在与中国的竞争中取胜，这些本就是必须攻克的课题。

Honestly, like, I feel like we're kind of like staring down the barrel or in the early innings of basically the largest industrial build out that The US has seen ever in all of history, like bigger than every industrial build out that we've ever seen combined, which is great news for us as American dynamism investors. Like, we don't have an industrial base. We don't have a military industrial base. We don't have all these other things. So I'm grateful to AI, honestly, for pushing us to figure out a lot of these thorny challenges that we're gonna have to figure out if we wanna be able to win a war with China, etcetera, etcetera.

没错。这些都是值得庆幸的问题，对吧？新技术正在被创造出来，这导致对某样东西的需求激增，暴露出我们在这方面供应不足的事实。于是现在大量供应正在被建立以满足新需求。

Yeah. These are very good problems to have. Right? What's happening is new technology is being created, which is leading to a ton of demand for a thing, which is exposing the fact that we don't have a bunch of supply for that thing. And so now a bunch of supply is getting built to unlock new demand.

新技术将继续被创造，释放新的需求，暴露出更多尚未建立的供应缺口，这个飞轮就会持续转动。这就是我们实现繁荣、经济增长和GDP提升的源泉。

And so new technology will get created, which will unlock new demand, which will expose more supply that hasn't been built, and the flywheel will go. And that's where we get prosperity and economic growth and GDP.

这才是最棒的美国。

America at the finest.

完全正确。这就是全部意义所在，伙计。这就是我们在美国创办公司的原因。在这个伟大国家创业，此刻正是史上最佳时机。

Exactly. This is what it's all about, baby. This is why we're here, building companies in America. So it's the greatest time in history to be building a company in this great country.

绝对如此。我认为速度也至关重要，因为在监测形势时，我们花大量时间上网。最近左右两派都流行一个梗：所有这些人工智能消耗太多能源，实际上推高了消费者能源价格，增加了成本，这是不可持续的。

Totally. I will say the speed also matters so much because on monitoring the situation, we spend a lot of time on the internet. And one of the memes that's really popped up recently, both on the left and the right, is, okay, all of this AI is taking way too much energy and it's actually driving consumer energy prices up. It's driving costs up. It's something that is not sustainable.

所以我很想听听你对建设速度的看法，需要做些什么。得克萨斯州已经找到方法——也许你可以谈谈为何这里如此独特——通过放松管制大幅降低成本。或许能谈谈如何将其视为全国范本，不仅针对建设，还包括监管体系。

So I would love to hear your thoughts on how quickly you have to build, what needs to be done. I mean, some ways, has figured out, and maybe you can talk a little bit about why Texas is such a unique place to build, but Texas has figured out how to deregulate and to make things much more affordable. Maybe talk about sort of what you could see that as a model for the country, not only building, but also sort of the regulatory regime.

对。这是价格经济学基础原理。价格是供需关系的函数。当需求旺盛而供应不足时，价格就会上涨。

Yeah. So price economics one zero one. Right? Price is a function of supply and demand. And when you have a ton of demand and low supply, you have prices going up.

这大致就是当今能源领域的现状。凯瑟琳，正如你所说，德克萨斯州拥有一个竞争性的自由市场。因此，市场参与者会接收到价格信号，当价格上涨时，他们有强烈的动机去建设。对吧？这就是为什么德克萨斯州在太阳能和风能方面领先全国。

And that's largely what's happening in the energy space today. In Texas, you have, to your point, Catherine, a competitive free market. So market participants are exposed to price signals, and there's a strong incentive to go build when prices go up. Right? And that's why Texas leads the nation in solar and wind.

此外，它恰好位于阳光带和中部风道的中心，这非常有帮助，但它拥有流动的价格信号。因此，开发商有强烈的动力进入这个市场。这就是为什么你会看到大量数据——我的意思是，达拉斯-沃斯堡是美国仅次于北弗吉尼亚的第二大数据中心市场。对吧？而且在那里建设非常容易。

Now it also happens to sit in the middle of the Sun Belt and the middle wind corridor, which is really helpful, but it's got liquid price signals. And so there's a strong incentive for developers to enter that market. That's why you're seeing a lot of these data I mean, the the second biggest data center market in the country behind Northern Virginia is Dallas Fort Worth. Right? And it's really easy to build there.

周围有很多开发商。你可以以创造性的方式与批发电力市场互动。所以我认为，如果你回顾一下2000年代初，为什么风能和太阳能的繁荣首先发生在德克萨斯州而不是其他地方？嗯，因为它是第一个放松管制的州。实际上，不是第一个——加利福尼亚先放松管制，然后安然公司很快叫停了。

There's a lot of developers around. You can interact with the wholesale power markets in creative ways. And so I think and if you kind of rewind the clock and look at the early two thousands, like, why did so much of the kind of wind boom, solar boom happen in Texas before other places? Well, because it was the first state to deregulate. Actually, not the first California deregulated first, and then Enron put a quick stop to that.

于是德克萨斯州接过了接力棒并继续推进。因此，一大批开发商来到了德克萨斯州，现在休斯顿真正成为了全国的能源之都。这都是因为这种自由市场的动态。所以我认为，随着时间的推移，我们越是让人们、公司、组织接触到价格信号，就会有越多的创新，越多的技术会被部署，价格也会随着时间的推移下降。对吧？

And so Texas kinda picked up the torch and ran with it. And so you had a bunch of developers go to Texas, and now Houston is really the energy capital of the country. And that's because of this free market dynamic. And so I think that over time, the more that we can expose people, companies, organizations to price signals, the more innovation we'll have, the more technology will get deployed, and you'll see prices go down over time. Right?

因为需求上升，供应保持不变，价格上涨，大量供应进入市场以套利，然后价格下降，需求再次上升。对吧？这就是市场的功能。所以我乐观地认为，随着更多供应的建设，我们会看到价格下降，但这是市场的自然周期，我认为这在很大程度上是健康的。

Because demand goes up, supply stays the same, prices go up, a bunch of supply comes in to arbitrage that away, and then prices go down, demand goes up again. Right? And that's what markets are for. So I'm optimistic that we will see prices come down as more supply gets built out, but this is kind of the natural cycles of markets, and I think it's largely healthy.

我们看到了一些——你知道，我们都对此感到兴奋，但对数据中心激增或建设有一些反弹。人们对这里发生的事情有什么误解，或者没有充分认识到什么？

We've seen a little bit of you know, we're all excited about, but there's some backlash to the sort of, data center surge or build out. What's misunderstood about, or what do people not fully appreciate about what's going on here?

嗯，我认为这很容易——你知道，我们看到——我是说，我没有见过那么多，我还不够老，但你总是会遇到这些繁荣与萧条的周期。对吧？无论是加密货币，还是LaBooBoos之类的。在大范式转变和大需求周期中，总会发生疯狂的狂热。我们现在在人工智能领域也看到了这一点。

Well, I think it's really easy in you know, we've seen I mean, I haven't seen all that many, I'm not that old, but there's you get these boom and bust cycles all the time. Right? You know, whether it's, you know, crypto or, you know, LaBooBoos or whatever. You've got just, like, crazy hysteria that happens around big paradigm shifts and and big demand cycles. And we're seeing this in AI.

对吧？就像我们都记得第一次使用ChatGPT时那种震撼的感觉。然后Claude、Grock相继问世，还有Cursor、Cognition这些新产品，我们团队和合作公司每天都在使用。这导致对计算资源的需求变得永无止境。基础设施建设和投资——我是说，这个市场的投机热度真的前所未有。

Right? It's like we all remember the first time we used ChatGPT, and our minds were blown. And, you know, these products and then Claude came out and Grock came out and, know, all these all these new things and, you know, Cursor and and Cognition and all these new products that our team uses every day and all the companies you work with use every day. And that has created this just insatiable demand for compute. And the build out and the investment I mean, the speculation in this market is is really unprecedented.

我有些在对冲基金工作的朋友，他们派人在德州四处寻找可以建数据中心的地皮，纽约办公室的人只管盲目开支票，因为他们觉得总有人会接盘。现在连普通人都开始做电力壳生意了。这种投机狂热令人咋舌——我们到底是在过度建设还是建设不足？

I mean, you're seeing you know, I I I've got friends that work at hedge funds who have, you know, land man equivalents of people who are driving around Texas just looking for land to buy to put data centers on, and they're just writing checks blindly from their offices in New York because they're like, hey. Someone's gonna take this off our hands, and, you know, everyone and their and their cousin is in the powered shell business now. Right? And so they're seeing just incredible amount of speculation, and it's like, well, are we overbuilding? Are we underbuilding?

答案可能是两者兼有。我们会先过度建设，然后又建设不足，循环往复。由于这块市场占比太大，需求旺盛资金充沛，必然会出现繁荣-萧条的周期。所以我不认为自己能说出什么独到见解，指出什么被忽视的潜在问题。

And the answer is, like, probably both. Right? Like, we're gonna overbuild, and we're gonna underbuild, and then we're gonna overbuild, and then we're gonna underbuild. And there's gonna be this just because it's such a big part of the market and there's so much demand and there's so much capital, you're gonna have, you know, boom bust kind of market economics play out. So I don't know that I have anything all that intelligent to say about, oh, there's this thing that no one's talking about that's, under the the scenes here.

要说的话，模型效率算一个。Deepseq突破后，现在又出现了更高效的模型训练和推理方式，能减少算力消耗。但算力之争最终会如何收场谁也说不准——那些上市公司股价已经疯狂了。我觉得迟早会出现回调。

You know, one thing would be, you know, model efficiency. Right? Like, we saw the deepseq breakthrough, and I think there's other things kind of happening with being able to train these models and run inference in more efficient ways that need less compute. But, you know, it's anyone's anyone's guess to to to determine, like, where the compute kind of battle is going to end, and you've got these know, all these public companies that the stocks have gone totally crazy, and who knows how it's gonna play out. I I think that there will be a bit of a snapback.

不过长期来看，需求会持续增长，我们终将需要大量算力。只是短期内供需很难精准匹配，这会导致一些糟糕的局面。

And then I think I do think the kind of the steady march of demand will keep going, and over time, we will need a lot of this compute. But it's really hard to get the supply demand math correctly in the near term, and there will be some some ugly outcomes as a result.

最近中文媒体都在报道中国收紧关键金属矿产出口的事，这些是你们供应链的上游。这对算力建设会有什么影响？你们如何看待这个问题？我们应该更关注中国上游供应链的哪些方面？

Yeah. One thing that, you know, has been big in the news this week, at least for people who read the news in Chinese, is basically the closing down of a lot of the critical metals and minerals that are probably upstream of you in the supply chain from China. Would like, how like, you know, how should how does that affect this whole power build out? Like, how are you guys thinking about that? What should we what should we all be thinking about more as we look towards those upstream Chinese supply chains?

我有两个矛盾的想法：第一可能出乎你意料——但我真心认为全球化经济更优越，市场规模更大。我信奉自由市场与劳动力分工。

Yeah. I really have two minds here. One, and it's maybe not what you're expecting me to say of it, but is is my real opinion, which is like, I believe a global economy is a better economy. It's a bigger economy. And I I believe in, you know, free markets and labor specialization.

我认为，一个能与包括中国在内的全球大国协作协调的世界经济对全球是有益的。但我们所处的时代充满各种博弈力量，尤其面对一位在关税政策上格外强势的总统。如果你从事制造业且核心部件主要依赖中国，就必须主动掌控局面。我们对此已明确表态——正因地缘政治局势，我们加速了在德克萨斯州建厂自主生产的计划。

And I think that, yeah, a global economy where we can collaborate and coordinate with large global powers, whether it be China or otherwise, is good for the world. But we are in a time where there are a bunch of forces at play, and we have a particularly aggressive president with regards to tariffs. And if you are in the business of making things and some of the things that you need are largely made in China, you've gotta take matters into your own hands. And, you know, we've been very loud about this. Like, we accelerated our plans to build a factory in Texas to make this stuff ourselves because of what's happening in the geopolitical arena.

对吧？如果你从中国采购稀土、电池组件等任何物资，就必须准备应急预案。有些材料可以从越南、印尼、泰国、日本等地获取，但有些只能自主生产。问题是：该在美国本土制造？还是墨西哥或其他地方？这需要权衡。

Right? And so if you source rare earths or, you know, components or batteries or whatever it might be from China, like, you better have a backup plan. And there are some things that you can get in other places like Vietnam, Indonesia, you know, Thailand, Japan, and there's some places some things that you you can't, and you're gonna have to make yourself. And does it make sense to make them in The US, or should you actually make them in Mexico or make them make them somewhere else? Right?

这完全取决于转型成本，以及零部件采购与组装的供应链布局。没有放之四海皆准的方案，不是简单按下"回岸生产"按钮、投入十亿美元就能立刻实现的。

It's all about transformation cost and, well, actually, you know, where do you source the components and how are they assembled? And so there's no one size fits all. It's not like, oh, yep. Go ahead and just make everything in The US. Let's just, like, click the click the reshore button and then, you know, put a billion dollars in the ground, and then it happens.

这需要时间，且充满微妙考量。以我们公司为例，正竭尽所能掌控命运，在德州自主生产那些核心且转型成本合理的部件。我们极其重视让工程与制造部门紧密协作，形成快速迭代的闭环——当然其他企业可能有不同策略，这很正常。

It's it takes time, and it's it's all nuanced. But, you know, I'll just speak for base. I mean, we are doing as much as we can to control our destiny here and make as many of the things that are core to us that make sense from a kind of transformation cost perspective ourselves in Texas. Now we also highly value having engineering and manufacturing very close to each other and having this tight feedback loop and iterations. And maybe not all people value that, and so they wanna make stuff elsewhere and engineer it far away, and that's fine too.

我认为这高度取决于产品战略和企业类型。当下创业确实艰难——其实创业从来都不易。最佳策略是评估自身处境，针对业务特性找到掌控命运的最优解。

And I think it it very much depends on the product strategy and the kind of company you're building. So, yeah, it is a hard time to be building things because it's just always hard to build things. And, you know, I think the best thing you can do is kind of take stock of your situation relative to your company and the thing that you make and just figure out the most strategic way to control your own destiny, so to speak.

不得不说，能融资十亿在德州建厂真是令人羡慕的应急预案。这充分证明了你们团队的非凡实力。

I will say it's pretty nice to have a backup plan where you can raise a billion dollars to build in Texas. Like, that's a really nice backup plan. And what a testament to you all

确实大有助益。我们非常感激包括安德森在内的投资方支持，他们认同这个宏伟愿景。

about it. Yeah. It certainly it certainly helps. We're we're look. We're very grateful for the support of our investors, Andreessen included, who see this big vision.

这并非是说，哎呀关税来了，我们就需要十亿美元，因为我们的成本上涨了。明白吗？而是我们已经有了计划，这就是我们的方案。

And it's not we're not like, oh, you know, tariffs hit. We need a billion dollars because, like, it our stuff's getting more expensive. Right? It's like, okay, we have a plan. Here it is.

这是我们要做的，这是我们的实施方式，这是预计成本。然后我们会尽快执行这个计划。

This is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to do it. This is what it's going to cost, right? And so we're gonna execute against that plan as quickly as we can.

对。我想多聊聊在德州建设的事。因为几年前——我们美国活力团队经常讨论这个——所有资源都集中在加州。当时说要在一个像奥斯汀这样的新生态系统中发展，会被视为激进或疯狂。最常见的质疑是：那里人才不足，你们会很难招到工程师。

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit more about just building in Texas. Because I think a couple of years ago, and we talk a lot about this on the American Dynamism team, it was like everything was concentrated in California. Saying you were going to build in a new ecosystem like Austin was sort of seen as radical or crazy and the kind of top line that everyone would say is, Well, there's not enough talent. You're going to have a hard time getting the engineering talent.

正如你所说，制造和工程需要邻近。你们如何实现这点？所以你们某种程度上是在打破这些质疑。能否谈谈为什么德州代表未来？如果放眼二十年，我们可能会看到十个新的实体产业生态系统真正受益于这场变革。

As you said, manufacturing and engineering need to be near each other. How are you going be able to do that? And so you were sort of proving all the naysayers wrong. Maybe talk about why Texas is the future and why if we're looking twenty years out, we might see 10 new, you know, physical world ecosystems that are really benefiting from this movement.

没错。坦白说我有私心——我出生成长在奥斯汀，这里是我的家。但首先，奥斯汀是绝佳的居住地，是组建家庭的理想选择。

Yeah. Look, I'm very biased here because I was born and raised in Austin. So this is home for me. But first of all, Austin is an amazing place to live. It's an amazing place to build a family.

这里有优质学校、丰富的户外自然资源、艺术氛围、音乐文化，还有德州长角牛队。

It's got great schools. It's got great, you know, outdoor nature. It's got the arts. It's got music. It's got the Texas Longhorns.

它既保留着小城镇的魅力，又拥有大都市的资源。这里具备...

It's, you know, has all the charm of a small city and all the resources of a of a of a big city. It's got

那些餐厅，还有我的，这很重要。

the restaurants and And my That's important.

还有烧烤，对吧？还有很棒的墨西哥菜。所以宜居性极高。你看，我们帮很多人搬到了奥斯汀。

And barbecue. Right? And great Mexican food. And and so the livability is extremely high. So, you know, we do a lot of relocating people to Austin.

对吧？我们就像在说，嘿，你懂吧？这也是筛选真正认真的人的好方法，因为听着，我们在这里工作非常努力。这里的工作强度很大。

Right? We're like, hey. You know? And it's a good selection mechanism for people who are really serious because, look, we we work really hard here. Like, this is an intense place to work.

如果你不愿意收拾生活搬到奥斯汀，那你可能就不适合这家公司，因为这里的人都很拼。所以我们能吸引很多人搬来，这里生活很棒，但城市的基本面也让它成为创业的好地方。这里极其支持商业，有大量高素质的年轻大学毕业生从德克萨斯大学出来。埃隆在这里建了超级工厂，带来了数万名优秀工程师，我们雇了不少。

And if you're not willing to pick up your life and move to Austin, like, you're probably just not the right fit for the company because it's just an intense group of people. And so been able to relocate a lot of people here because it's a great place to live, but the actual fundamentals of the city make it a really good place to build. It's incredibly pro business. There's a massive, highly, you know, competent set of young, college educated people coming out of the University of Texas. Elon has built Gigafactory here, which has brought tens of thousands of incredible engineers here, many of which we've hired.

而且SpaceX现在在巴斯特罗普有基地。亚马逊、苹果、Meta这些公司都在这里有大办公室。这里成了科技中心，本地人才池越来越好，随着城市发展，我们在这里招人的能力也提升了。

And, you know, SpaceX now has a has a site in Bastrop. You know, Amazon and Apple and Meta and, you know, all of these companies have big offices here. So it's become a technology hub. The hiring the local hiring pool has gotten better. Our ability to recruit people here has has gone up as the city has gotten better.

作为一个在这里长大、生活了大概三十年的人，奥斯汀未来十年会比过去十年好得多。我们正处在转折点，这里要成为美国主要大都市了。所以我对这座城市非常看好，显然我们的朋友Saranac正在这里打造一家了不起的硬件公司，他们的进展令人兴奋。未来还会有更多人在德州攻坚克难，这景象真让人振奋。

And as someone who grew up here and, you know, spent the last, you know, whatever, thirty years here, like, the next ten years for Austin are gonna be a lot better than the last ten years. And we're kind of hitting this inflection point where it's becoming a major metro in the country. And so I'm extremely bullish on the city, and obviously our friends at Saranac are building a really incredible hardware company here, and we're excited about what they're doing. And and there's gonna be more behind us that are that are, you know, building hard things, doing hard work here in in Texas, and it's really exciting to see.

扎克，电网现代化是人们经常讨论的重要话题。显然不是最吸引眼球的话题，但你知道，

Zach, so modernizing the grid is an important topic that people talk a lot about. Obviously, not the most the sexiest topic, but, you know,

我觉得这相当性感。

I think it's it pretty sexy.

没错。是的，这事必须完成。你为什么不先概述一下电网最初是怎么变得这么糟糕的，以及需要采取什么措施？

Exactly. Yeah. It needs to be done. Why you don't give an overview of how the grid got so bad in the first place and what needs to happen?

是的。所以这背后的故事既有趣又复杂。我的意思是，电网在很大程度上是联邦化和受监管的，对吧？在20世纪初，当我们开始建设现在的电网基础设施时，可用的技术还比较少。

Yeah. So the backstory here is interesting and complicated. I mean, the grid was largely kind of federalized and regulated. Right? And, you know, in the early 1900s when we started building out what is now a grid infrastructure, the available technology was less.

我们的城市更偏向乡村化。要完成这些建设，需要大量的协调工作。因此，许多市政公用事业得以建立，由城市运营。随着时间的推移，经济的其他部分逐渐放松管制，比如卡车运输、航空和电信，但电网基本上没有。它一直保持着高度监管的状态。

Our kind of cities were more rural. You had to have, like, a ton of coordination to get these things done. And so you had a lot of these municipal utilities get built out there, you know, run by the city. And then over time, you know, you saw other parts of the economy deregulate, right, like, you know, trucking and airlines and telecom, and the grid just largely didn't. And it stayed, you know, highly regulated.

我认为，当经济的某些部分由政府控制时，创新肯定会减少。目前，大约40%到50%的电网基础设施建于六十年代。由于垄断的存在，缺乏竞争，创新的动力非常弱，因为没有竞争。

And I think and I think that when you have parts of the economy that are controlled by the government, you definitely have less innovation. And so, you know, right now, on the order of 40%, 50% of grid infrastructure was built in the sixties. And so there has not been a strong incentive. When you have monopolies, you don't have competition. There's very little incentive to innovate, right, because there's no competition.

因此，我们拥有老旧的基础设施，却没有升级或重建的动力。所以，我们的系统基本上是老旧且规模不足的。正如我之前提到的，在2000年代初和90年代末，加州开始了一场放松电网管制的运动，但很快因安然事件而夭折。德州接手并放松了管制，随后东北部的一些州跟进，但进展就此停滞。全国大部分地区仍然处于管制状态，部分原因也是合理的。

And so you have old infrastructure where there's no incentive to to to upgrade it and and and rebuild it. And so we have a system that is basically old and too small is kind of the punch line. As I mentioned in the early two thousands, late nineties, this deregulate the grid kind of movement started in California. It was quickly cut off at the at the knees around the Indron Indron situation. Texas picked up the church, deregulated, and then a a bunch of states in the Northeast followed, but it kind of stopped there, and and a lot of the country is is still regulated and and and partially for for good reason.

我认为，至少在输电和配电部分，保持受监管的垄断是有道理的，因为在一个社区里铺设10条不同的电力线路是不合理的。这有点像道路，大多数道路并非私人所有。

I mean, I think that at least the transmission distribution, it does make sense to have regulated monopolies in that part of the economy because it doesn't make sense to have, you know, 10 different power lines running through the neighborhood. Right? So the it's it's kind of like the the roads. Right? Like, most roads are not privately owned.

这些道路由政府所有是合理的，但行驶其上的车辆和沿街商铺并非国有。这就像经济中的其他代理关系——缺乏竞争和政府监管时，创新就会停滞，升级动力也会不足。因此我们必须改变现状。我们正从德克萨斯州的放松管制市场切入，那里存在创新激励，并能接触到价格信号。

It makes sense to have these roads owned by the government, but the cars that drive on them and the the kind of stores that line them are not are not government owned. And it's kind of like other, you know, other proxies in the economy. When you have no competition and government regulation, you don't have innovation, and you have very little incentive to upgrade. So we have to change that. And we're starting by entering the deregulated market of Texas where there is an incentive to innovate, and we are exposed to price signals.

这就是德州成为能源创新实验室的原因——自由市场环境下，优秀技术能赢得市场份额和利润。现在我们将过去两年半在德州研发的所有技术（硬件、软件、部署运营）打包，提供给全国那些受监管的公用事业公司。他们正面临一代人仅见一次的电力需求高峰，急需技术解决方案，而他们清楚自身并不擅长研发——所以他们需要合作伙伴。

And that's why Texas has become a laboratory for energy innovation because it's a free market, and you can go capture market share and profits by coming up with great technology. Now what we're doing is we're taking all the technology that we've built over the last two and a half years in Texas, the hardware, the software, the deployment operations, and we're packaging it and bringing it to those regulated utilities across the country who are seeing this once in a generation power demand and saying, we need technology. And they know that they're not really built for R and D. Right? And so they need they need a partner.

我们主动接洽时说：'我们就是你们的外包研发团队，这套技术能帮你们降低成本、提高可靠性。'他们的反应通常是：'听起来不错。'

And we show up and say, hey. We are your outsourced R and D. We have this technology we can provide to you. It's gonna help you decrease your cost and increase your reliability. I'm like, okay.

这个模式很有意思。我们正在与这些受监管的公用事业公司建立合作——注意不是要解除他们的监管，而是帮助他们在德州以外地区提升运营效率。

That sounds pretty interesting. So we're working on partnering with these regulated utilities. We're not here to deregulate them. Right? We're here to partner with them and help them do their jobs better outside of Texas.

至于其他放松管制的市场，我们将在自由竞争中一展身手。我期待更多竞争者出现——竞争是好事。

And then the other deregulated markets, we're gonna compete in the free markets. Right? And I hope that other competition shows up. Right? Competition is good.

竞争意味着消费者能获得更低价格和更优服务，也会鞭策我们不断进步。我希望更多能源科技公司加入市场竞争，与我们共同进步；同时也希望它们能服务受监管市场，代表这些公用事业公司开展技术研发。

Competition equals lower prices and better services for consumers, and it'll and it'll help us do do better at our job. So I hope there are more energy technology companies that show up in the competitive parts of the market and help us push us to do better, and then conversely also go to the regulated parts of the market and start building technology and and, you know, doing R and D on behalf of these regulated utilities.

非常精彩的阐述。这个收尾既鼓舞人心又恰到好处——我特别欣赏'竞争是好事'这个提法。自从《从0到1》走红后，人们往往低估了竞争对整个生态系统的积极意义。感谢你强调这一点。

Yeah. I think it's a great great explanation. I wonder if that's a I think that's an inspiring and and good note to draw. I like the phrase by the competition is good because, you know, the zero to one got so popular, people have, like, been have been less excited about competition as as it relates, like, in terms of, you know, its overall, benefits to the to the ecosystem. So I appreciate you calling that out.

是啊。如果你打算，你知道的，在一个缺乏竞争的市场中取胜，那其实算不上真正的胜利。对吧？任何真正的好机会都会引来竞争。对不对？

Yeah. If you're gonna you know, winning in an uncompetitive market is like that is not really a thing. Right? Like, any any good any good opportunity gets competed. Right?

如果你所做的事情在经济和社会层面确实有趣，那就应该有人来竞争。对吧？总会有人站出来说，嘿，我也想要分一杯羹。是不是？

If if what you're doing is actually that interesting economically and societal like, it should be competed on. Right? And someone should show up and say, hey. I I want that too. Right?

所以你看，现在如果你问，嘿Zach，还有谁在用这种方式做这件事？实际上根本没人。虽然确实有其他人在生产电池，也有其他人在编写电池管理软件。

So, you know, right now, if you say, hey, Zach. Like, who else is is is working on this in this way? Like, actually, there's there's nobody. Like, there are other people that make batteries. There are other people that write software for batteries.

但没人拥有我们这样的模式。最好快点出现竞争者，否则就说明我们做的事情显然行不通。而我认为我们的模式是成功的，市场也认可——商业模式成立，客户非常满意。所以我预计很快就会出现竞争者。

No one has the model that we have. Someone better show up soon or else, like, what we're doing clearly isn't working. Now I think it's working, and the market thinks it's working. The business model works, the customers love it. And so I imagine that someone will show up soon.

不过我们已经取得了不错的先发优势，而且我们团队竞争力很强，尽管放马过来吧。但我确实认为良性的竞争市场才是健康的。

Now, I think we've got a nice head start and, you know, we're rather competitive people, so, you know, bring it on. But I do think that like good, you know, competitive markets are healthy.

完全同意。确实如此。

Totally. Totally. Yeah.

另外Julie也可以参与进来。朋友们，如果想了解更多关于BASE的信息，《Arena杂志》有关于你们和我们在德州建设项目的权威报道。这周末记得去看看。

And to Julie, can be part it. Friends. If you wanna read more about BASE, Arena Mag has the definitive profile of you guys and what we're building in Texas. Check it out this weekend.

艾琳，你是想说什么吗？

Erin, did you wanna say something?

哦，我

Oh, I

刚才你提到彼得·蒂尔、埃里克和《从零到一》。你知道的，没有竞争对手比有竞争对手更好。我很喜欢扎克的犀利观点。我记得在Palantir工作时，我们经常讨论如何避免竞争。而现在我接触的每家公司都自称是某个领域的Palantir。

was just you brought up Peter Thiel, Eric, and Zero to One. And, you know, it's better to not have a competitor than have a competitor. And I loved Zach's spicy take. And I remember, you know, when I was at Palantir, we talked a lot about not having a competitor. And now every company I talk to is Palantir for XYZ.

所以我想我们会...是的。

So I imagine we'll Yeah.

Palantir有无数竞争对手。英伟达有无数竞争对手。十年后人们会听到OpenAI。是的，OpenAI也有无数竞争者。

Palantir has tons of competitors. NVIDIA has tons of competitors. In ten years hearing OpenAI. Yeah. OpenAI, tons of competitors.

举出一个没有竞争的伟大企业？我是说...确实。

Name a great business that doesn't have competition. I I mean yeah.

没错。太棒了。那么说到这里，扎克，非常感谢你参加《现代局势》节目。

Yeah. Awesome. Well, on that note, Zach, thanks so much for coming to The Modern Situation.

谢谢邀请我，伙计们。这很有趣。

Thanks for having me, guys. It was fun.

太好了。现在，我们很高兴在《监控局势》环节迎来第二位嘉宾埃迪·拉扎林，他将与我们探讨尼克·兰德是谁。埃迪，我们一直想找个理由在AZZ播客里提起尼克·兰德，现在终于找到了。塔克·卡尔森最近在播客中邀请了一位嘉宾，讨论了硅谷的尼克·兰德现象及其对AI的启发。他们担心这某种程度上像是在召唤恶魔。

Great. Well, we're now excited to have our second guest on The Monitoring The Situation segment, Eddie Lazarin, who's gonna be talking to us about who is Nick Land. Eddie, we've been looking for an excuse to bring up Nick Land in AZZ podcast for for for a while now, and I I think we finally found it. Tucker Carlson had a guest on the podcast, which talked about the Nick Land phenomenon in Silicon Valley and how it's inspired AI. They're worried about it being a sort of the summoning of the demons, so to speak.

Tablet杂志上有篇关于尼克·兰德的精彩人物特写。尼克·兰德还在一场辩论播客中与

There was a great profile on tablet on who is Nick Land. Nick Land also went on a podcast in this debate with

最新一期Tablet杂志。对，不是你们的。

current issue of Tablet. Yes. Not yours.

没错。此外，尼克·兰德还与亚历山大·杜金在麦金泰尔的播客上进行过辩论。所以现在新闻热点中，人们都在问：尼克·兰德是谁？他与硅谷有何关联？埃迪，帮我们理清头绪。

Exactly. And to Catherine, Nick Land also did a debate with Alexander Dugan on MacIntyre's podcast. So in the news right now, and people are asking, who is Nick Land and what is his connection to Silicon Valley? Eddie, help us make sense.

那么，我会不断叠加免责声明，直到或许我们能得出答案。对吧？就像这样我们最终可能会明白。首先我要说，人们不需要比理解德勒兹、加塔利或黑格尔这些晦涩难懂的大陆哲学家更深入地去理解尼克·兰德。明白吗？

So so I'll say I'll I I will layer on caveat after caveat until maybe we get an answer. Right? Like, that will maybe that's we'll get there. But so for first, I'll say, like, I don't think people need to understand who Nick Land is any more than you need to understand who Deleuze and Guattari are or who Hegel was or, you know, who any of these somewhat inscrutable continental philosophers are. Right?

我认为并非必须理解他。尽管这些人物确实通过文化层层的涟漪效应影响着主流文化——当他们被人们消化和重新解读后。对吧？我们某种程度上达成了对他们的理解。所以我说尼克·兰德就是这类人物。

I don't I don't think that you necessarily need to. Although I think these figures do have an effect on mainstream culture, they do, it's usually through their ripple effect over layers and layers of culture as they're kind of digested and recomputed by by people. Right? We kind of achieve an understanding of them. So I'll say Nick Land is that type of figure.

因此他极其难以理解，不仅因为他属于一个本身就难以理解的学术流派——就像大陆哲学家普遍那样——更因为他选择讨论的话题本身就晦涩难懂。他的文风之所以晦涩，是因为借鉴了那些著名的二十世纪法国哲学家们华丽而密集的表达方式。虽然他用英语写作，且是个地道的英国人。但所有这些层面叠加，使得理解尼克·兰德变得异常困难。所以首先，如果你对大陆哲学毫无兴趣，对这类事物不感冒，你完全不必了解他。

So he's incredibly difficult to understand, not just because he's from an intellectual school that's hard to understand, like the continental philosophers in general, but because the topics he chooses to talk about are themselves inscrutable. His writing style is inscrutable because it's sort of taking these flourishes and density from these famous, like, twentieth century French philosophers and stuff like that. Obviously, he's writing in English, and he's very much an Englishman. But all these layers make it incredibly difficult to understand who Nick Land is. So first, if you have no interest in continental philosophers, if you have no interest in this type of thing, you don't need to know.

你做得很好。关掉吧。

You're good. Turn it off.

这周的播客跳过吧。

Skip the podcast this week.

好好享受。祝你下午愉快，或者随便怎样都行。对吧？但如果这类话题恰好吸引你，那么尼克·兰德就非常非常有意思。我个人就是他的狂热粉丝。

Enjoy. Have a have a good afternoon, you know, whatever. Right? But if those types of things are interesting to you, then Nick Land is very, very interesting. And I find I'm I'm a huge fan.

我觉得他极富启发性。他的独特之处在于，将后工业革命时期最引人深思的主题，现代化地融入了超级当代的密码朋克语境中。正如我所说，他很难被简单解释，所以我现在说的都是极度简化的版本。明白吗？我把他复杂的思想过度简化了。

I find it very interesting. What makes him interesting is that he takes a lot of the most interesting post industrial revolution themes, and he modernizes them into an ultra ultra modern cypherpunk context. Right now, I'm as I said, he he's hard to explain, so I'm being really reductionistic here. Right? And I'm I'm overly simplifying what he is.

但尼克·兰德的学术发展有两个著名阶段——这在他这类人身上并不罕见，那些在复杂思维领域探索，试图用高阶概念工具理解世界的人。早期阶段（比如1994年那篇精彩的《崩溃》文章），他探讨工业发展、资本主义、互联网、城市，以及我们在九十年代前所未见的那种现代文化的强度、热度、混乱与熵增现象，试图从宏观历史维度理解其意义——这一切在人类发展大图景中意味着什么？

But Nick Land has had two famous phases, two phases in his intellectual development, which is not uncommon for people like him, people who are kind of playing in this really complex mind space and trying to make sense of things using using really high level conceptual tools. In his earlier phase, which I think is maybe exemplified by, like, this cool essay called meltdown from 1994, Nick Land was taking all these themes about industrial development and capitalism and the Internet and cities and the the, you know, the the intensity and heat and chaos and entropy of modern culture as we saw it in in the nineties and in the seventies and eighties and nineties in a way we'd never seen before. And he's trying to make sense of it in terms of its grand historicity. Right? What does it mean in the big picture of the development of humanity?

那个时期他对资本主义更持怀疑态度，认为技术发展在制造问题的同时也蕴含巨大潜力。而近年阶段（大约2012-2013年后），他仍关注类似主题，但观点有所转变：将技术与资本的反馈循环视作某个宏大计划的终极形态——无论这个计划来自人类还是未来AI。这涉及他另一个神秘主义主题，相当复杂。

And during that period, I think he was a little more cynical about capitalism. Like, he kind of flipped his views on how he thought about capitalism technological development as as something that was creating a lot of problems for people, but also something that was brimming with incredible potential. In his more recent period, maybe, like, since twenty third 2012, twenty thirteen ish or something like that, he has remained focused on similar themes, but he has kind of flipped around a little bit where he sees technological development and the feedback loop of capital and technology and capital and technology and money and capital and technology as maybe culminating a huge project. Now whether it's a human project or whether it's a project from an AI from the future is kind of a complex idea, but gets at another theme of his, which is this esoteric mysticism. Right?

我并不是一个特别深奥的神秘主义类型的人。实际上我在学校学的是哲学，但我学的是分析哲学，那种枯燥的、画数学公式和逻辑的，你知道，用逻辑解释的哲学家类型，那种可能以牺牲趣味性为代价把事情讲清楚的类型。对吧？嗯。但大陆学派则恰恰相反。

Now I I'm not a particularly esoteric mysticism type person. I actually I studied philosophy in school, but I studied analytic philosophy, which is like the boring, draw math equations and logic, you know, logical explanations type philosopher, the type who maybe makes things clear at the expense of them being interesting. Right? Mhmm. But the continental school, land school, is very much the opposite.

也许是的。

Maybe Yes.

并且最大限度地追求趣味性，可能以牺牲清晰度为代价。对吧？是的。而且我会说，兰对这些思想的解构常常与他那些深奥的工具层层叠加。对吧？

And leaning maximally into interestingness maybe at the expense of clarity. Right? Yeah. And and and I'd say that Lan's unpacking of all these ideas is often layered with his esoteric tools. Right?

比如像那个气动图，我有点后悔把它揉皱了，但这无济于事。反正它也说不通。对吧？所以就不费心去解释气动图了。实际上有一个非常棒的三小时三十三分钟的播客，我们会附上链接。

And those are things like like the pneumogram, which I'm I'm I regret I crunched up slightly, but it doesn't help. It wasn't gonna make sense anyway. Right? So the the the not gonna bother to try to explain the pneumogram. It's actually a really cool three hour, thirty three minutes podcast We'll link to it.

在YouTube上他有深入讲解。但我自己可能是这样理解的：就像你那位非常了解人性但可能依赖塔罗牌作为其出色心理分析工具的天才朋友。对吧？我就是这么想的。那么，是什么让兰德对硅谷人如此有吸引力？

On YouTube where he explains it in-depth. But the way that I maybe rationalize it to myself is I think of it like that brilliant friend of yours who really does have a great grasp of people but maybe relies on tarot as like a tool of their brilliant, otherwise brilliant psychologizing. Right? That's kind of how I think about it. So what makes Land so interesting to Silicon Valley people?

因为那是对黑格尔或杜尔凯姆的一种反驳。他们不是那种能激励硅谷的人。不，不是。所以兰德更相关、更切题。

Because that that's just a pushback on the Hagel or Duluth. Like, they're not people who inspire, you know No. No. Silicon Valley in the same way. So Land is more relevant and more pertinent.

这是因为他从那些哲学家那里汲取了许多有趣的主题。我尽量不深入具体细节。我可以，而且我很乐意，但他把这些哲学家讨论的主题非常具体地嵌入到技术进步中。是的。

And that's because he takes a lot of the interesting themes from those philosopher. I'm I'm I'm trying to avoid getting, like, a little too deep into the specifics. I can't. I I can, and I'd be happy to. But but he takes a lot of the themes that these philosophers talk about, and he embeds them very, very specifically in technological progress Yeah.

在互联网上，关于新事物。他——我这么说——非常深度地参与了加密团队和加密基金的工作。他对比特币作为哲学对象的探讨可能是迄今为止最有趣、最密集的，我确实觉得超级、超级有趣，每次重读总能给我带来新的惊喜。这本书大概有150页左右，对吧？

In the Internet, in what is new. He has and I say this, like, very much being a part of the crypto team and on the crypto fund. He has probably the most interesting dense treatment of Bitcoin as a philosophical object that has ever been written, for sure, I found super, super interesting and always seems to surprise me with ideas when I go back to it. It's like a 150 page book or so. Right?

所以他的魅力部分在于，他特别擅长将这些思想嵌入当代技术主题和发展中，而不是像大多数哲学家那样挥挥手，把技术进步看作‘看啊，他们生产东西更快了’之类。比如‘好吧，他们把别针工厂的成本降低了十倍’。

So part of what makes his appeal so great is specifically embedding these things in contemporary technological themes and developments as opposed to kind of waving the hand and looking at like, I would describe most philosophers as kind of looking at technological progress as like, well, look. They're making more stuff faster. You know? Like, okay. They made the pin factory 10 times cheaper.

哇哦。那些实业家。懂吗？而我认为兰德识别出了一种质变。对吧？

Wow. Those industrialists. You know? Whereas I think land identifies a qualitative change. Right?

在技术进步中，我们看到的可能是近乎诡异的东西。我认为塔克的猜测正确捕捉到了这种诡异感。不过他的分析方式——或许与我对兰德的看法不同——我觉得其中掺杂了很多他个人的主观投射。虽然读起来非常有趣好玩，但说实话，我认为并不特别准确。但他至少准确捕捉到了那种诡异感。

In technological progress, we see something maybe almost spooky. And I think that that's where that spookiness is what Tucker's guess was correctly identifying. Now I think his analysis was, maybe not the way that I see land, and I think there was a lot of projection from his personal, analysis of of things. I think that I I I really I thought it was very entertaining and fun, but I the truth is I don't think it was particularly accurate. But he is correctly picking up at least on the spookiness.

对吧？技术进步的速度及其对人类境况的叠加与侵蚀方式，有时确实带着某种诡异感。我认为这非常耐人寻味。现在为了更具体地回应关于硅谷的提问——实际上我认识的硅谷人士里喜欢尼克·兰德的并不多。

Right? There is something a little bit spooky sometimes about the rate that technological progress compounds and the way that it maybe erodes at the same time that it adds on to the human condition. Right? And I think that makes it really interesting. Now I'll say just to maybe situate the the the prompt about Silicon Valley a little bit more specifically, I don't actually know that many people in Silicon Valley who like Nick Land.

说实话，并不是说你在旧金山街头随便找人聊天就会遇到。Passage Press刚出版了这本超棒的书，是兰德博客文章的合集。

I'm gonna be honest. I it's not like it's not like you go around the streets of San Francisco and you talk to people. The this this really cool book, this compilation of Land's blog posts from Passage Press came out.

是的。我

Yes. I

我想是去年。

I think last year.

这正是我想问的，因为你知道，我觉得如果你在硅谷待过，尼克·兰德这个名字你肯定听过，但如果你在某些网络圈子里混过，也会听过这个名字。我认为Passage Press的切入点非常准确，对吧？比如他们出版了《Xenosystems》。我很想聊聊这本书的内容及其重要性。但在网络右翼圈子里，他也是个备受关注的人物。

That's what I was going to ask because you know, I I feel like Nick Land's a name you've heard if you've been in Silicon Valley, but it's also a name you've heard if you've been in certain circles online. And I think the passage press point is a very good point, right? Like they published cenosystems. I'd love to get into what that is and why it's important. But on the online right, he's also a figure people care about.

现在他某种程度上已经通过塔克·卡尔森进入了主流网络右翼的视野，我很好奇为什么你认为这两个世界会产生交集？因为他的作品——如果你了解的话，就像几周前Tablet杂志那篇梳理他整个生平的文章所说的——他并不是典型的美国右翼人物，对吧？

And now that he's sort of mainstreamed into like the mainstream online right with Tucker, curious why you think those worlds are colliding because his work, if you, know, and again, I think the tablet piece that came out a couple of weeks ago goes through like the entire history of what he's done. He's not really a typical like American right figure, right?

就像他

Like he

其实并不符合那个语境。你知道，他曾在英国华威大学任教，后来搬到了上海，对吧？他并不真正参与美国政治或文化，却对这些小众圈子产生了影响。所以我想先问问，《Xenosystems》和Passage Press出版的这本书到底是什么？

doesn't really fit in that context. He's, you know, at it was at University of Warwick was that in England? And then he moved to Shanghai, right? Like he's not really part of American politics or American culture, yet he's had an influence on these kind of very small pockets. So I would just be curious, maybe we'll start with what is Xenosystems and the book from Passage Press?

然后他是如何以这种奇特方式融入所有这些亚文化的？但正如你所说，在硅谷很难找到真正深入研究过尼克·兰德著作的人。

And then how does he fit into all of these weird subcultures in peculiar way but doesn't necessarily As you said, you'd be hard pressed to find someone in Silicon Valley who's read a lot of Nick Lan's work.

老实说，我这么说并无贬义——我并不认为尼克·兰德的思想像塔克节目里描述的那样，在硅谷具有广泛影响力。

Honestly, course, I don't mean this in a disparaging way. I don't really see Nick Lan's ideas as being, like, broadly influential in Silicon Valley in the way maybe they were characterized in the Tucker problem.

但这种加速主义的思潮最终导向了EAC。

But there's this kind of this the accelerationist thing leading to EAC.

没错。所以那些被重新构想和消化过的理念精华已经渗透进来。部分原因在于——或许我这么说有点滑稽——尼克·兰的作品极具氛围感。

Yeah. So so distillations of some of the ideas that have been kind of, like, reimagined and digested have made their way in. And part of that is because and this is I'm gonna maybe this is a funny way to try to put it is that Nick Lan's work is very vibey.

是啊。

Yeah.

懂吗？那种氛围感真的很强烈。明白吗？

Okay? It's really vibey. Okay?

如果你去看

If you go look at

他94年那篇《崩溃》文章，或是Xenosystems上的任意一篇随笔，他的文风浓烈而具有煽动性，刻意追求宏大叙事。对吧？他能在作品中营造丰富意象。所以他描述的加速不仅是让事物更快更便宜，更像是改变世界的工程。

that meltdown piece from '94, you look at a random essay from Xenosystems, like, he has a intense prosaic writing style that is provocative, intentionally, inflammatory, not inflammatory, intentionally grandiose. Right? And he can create a lot of imagery in his work. So the way he describes acceleration is it's more than just like making the pins faster and cheaper. Acceleration is like almost an you know, it's like a world changing project.

明白吗？他将比特币比作互联网时代最深远的事件。他那套源自欧陆学派的戏剧性表达方式，让人们深受吸引并乐在其中。

Right? He describes Bitcoin as like maybe the most profound thing that's happened on the Internet. Right? Like like like he he he has incredible theater to what he says that comes from the continental school. So people have taken that and really enjoyed that.

对吧？比如，我觉得如果你读过他的任何作品，你就会明白这一点。那么，什么是Xenosystems之类的？我会说他在网络右翼的存在，Xenosystems，在网络右翼中，他以一种非常有趣的方式崭露头角。对吧？

Right? Like, I think if you read any of his stuff, you'll you'll see that. So, like, what is what is Xenosystems and so on? So I'll say what his presence in the online right, Xenosystems, On the online right, he is a very he he got there in an interesting way. Right?

我觉得如果人们稍微了解马蹄铁理论的话。对吧？兰德并非一直是右翼的代表人物。事实上，很多人描述他早期与CCRU的阶段，就像是一个杂牌但非常有趣、极具艺术敏感性的写作团体，基本上是个艺术团体。

I I think if people are kind of familiar with horseshoe theory. Right? Right? Land was not has not always been like a figure on the right. In fact, many have described his earlier phase with the with the CCRU, of this, like, ragtag, very interesting, very artistically sensitive writing group, basically, art art group.

至少我认为他们是个艺术团体。他们本可能将他描述为极左翼，反资本主义的左翼。而他出现在右翼，可以说是跨越了马蹄铁的鸿沟。我的一位哲学家好友，我更倾向于认为他是共产主义者，大学时的朋友，他说读尼克·兰德时，常感觉能跨越鸿沟亲吻他。

I think of them as an art group, at least. They would have described him as actually on the far left, right, as if afar on the anti capitalist left. And his arrival on the right was kinda jumping across the gap in the horseshoe, so to speak. Yeah. A very good friend of mine, a philosopher who who I I identify as more of a communist, a college friend of mine, He says, like, I often feel like when I read Nick Land that I could, like, reach across and, like, kiss him over the the gap in the in the horseshoe.

对吧？所以，我不会说他是硅谷的代表人物。我不认为硅谷是这样的。对吧？

Right? So he's a I wouldn't say that he's a representative figure of Silicon Valley. I don't think that's I don't think Silicon Valley is like this. Right?

不是。

No.

他是个极具洞察力、尖锐且争议性的杰出人物，我认为这让他最近对网络右翼来说非常令人兴奋和有趣，因为网络右翼确实缺少这种声音。对吧？一个深陷欧陆哲学泥沼的人，可以这么说。

He is a fantastic poster and very insightful and cutting and controversial, and I think that that has made him very exciting and very interesting to the right to the online right recently because the online right doesn't really have this type of voice. Right? Someone with, you know, deep in the continental weeds, so to speak.

那么，究竟是什么导致了他从左翼转向右翼呢？

And so so what explains his shift from left to right, basically?

你知道，这很有趣。他自己其实并没有真正解释过这一点，对吧？我是说尼克·兰特，如果你读过他的主题，就会发现他的关注点并没有完全改变。它确实有所演变，他现在发布和谈论的内容与过去相比有很多不同。

You know, it's it's funny. He hasn't really explained that himself. Right? Nick Nick Lant I mean, if if you read his themes, it's not like the the subject of his attention has changed totally. It has certainly evolved, and there's all kinds of things he posts about and talks about today that he'd in the past.

而且不。所以他确实有所演变，但他曾消失了一段时间。然后他又回来了，一切都变了，对吧？现在他只是从那个视角来写作。

And no. So he he has certainly evolved, but he kinda disappeared for a while. And then he just kinda came back, and everything had changed. Right? And and and now he just writes from that perspective very.

我可以描述他相信的那些观点。对吧？比如，他非常关注自由主义。我说的自由主义是指欧洲意义上的。

I can say the types of things that he believes. Yeah. Right? You know, like, he's very preoccupied with liberalism. When I say liberalism, I mean in the European sense.

对吧？就像大写的自由主义，比如右翼自由派和左翼自由派，在美国政治版图上，自由、个人主义意义上的。他非常关注西方的自由主义，以及它的含义、演变，尤其是它如何在某些方面病态化，演变成当代进步主义，他认为这不仅是一种孤立的政治体系，而是可以明确识别为新教、旧自由主义、西方选民构成变化等的演变。

Right? Where, like, big capital l liberalism, like, you know, right liberals and left liberals being, like, generally the American political landscape, right, in the freedom, you know, individualist sense. He's very preoccupied with, like, liberalism in the West and, like, what that means and, how it has evolved, and in particular, how it has pathologized in some ways and evolved into, like, contemporary progressivism, which he sees as, like, not just its own kinda isolated political, system, but as something that is clearly identifiable as an evolution of, of Protestantism, of, older liberalism, of the change in, the makeup of the of the of the Western electorate and so on.

但他与杜根的辩论是，这是自由主义固有的问题，还是只是一种变异，而不一定是其形式固有的。

But the debate he was having with Dugan was whether, that's kind of endemic to to liberalism or whether that was just a, you know, mutation but not necessarily inherent to Right. To the form.

对，对。这些主题也是为什么他对右翼如此有趣的原因，因为我认为今天很多在线右翼人士——我不是指整个右翼，显然我在泛泛而谈——但我说的是那些非常热衷于用诊断性视角看待过去二三十年美国政治和文化变化的人，尤其是在互联网背景下，并试图从大的历史框架中理解它。对吧？

Yeah. Yeah. So those types of themes are part of why he's also so interesting to the right because I think a lot of people on the online right today and I I don't mean like the whole right. Remember, I'm speaking in generalities, obviously, but I'm talking about the type of people who are very interested in trying to take a diagnostic lens to what has happened in American politics and American culture over the last twenty, thirty years, maybe in light of the Internet specifically and trying to understand it in its big historical frame. Right?

这是一个有趣的项目，也是一个困难的项目。我不假装他一定有答案。我想他甚至不会。他只是在试图理解它。

And that's that's an interesting project. It's a difficult project. I don't pretend that he has the answers necessarily. I don't think he would even. I mean, he's trying to understand it.

这让他显得很有趣。

It makes him interesting.

是的。是的。不，我只是觉得塔克播客很吸引人，它如何将这些奇怪的文化现象串联起来。如果你真的在关注局势，互联网上正发生着各种事情，比如关于《启示录》、敌基督的讨论，以及将尼克·兰德和加速主义与这个更大的问题联系起来——我们是否正处在世界末日？

Yeah. Yeah. No. I I just thought the the the Tucker podcast was fascinating how it sort of brought together these sort of weird cultural things. Again, if you're truly monitoring the situation, there are things happening across the internet like discussion of Revelation, the Antichrist, and really linking Nick Land and accelerationism to sort of this bigger question of, are we at the end of the world?

我很好奇，这是塔克的解读方式，还是兰德作品中确实涉及的部分？我知道他谈了很多关于奇点和这些力量汇聚的话题。

And I'm very curious, was that more of like Tucker framing of it, or is that like actually part of Lan's work that we hit? I mean, I know he's talked a lot about singularity and sort of these forces coming together.

但是

But

我从未将他的作品视为末日项目。所以我很困惑它为何被归为此类

I've never thought of his work as like end of the world projects. So I'm curious how it's getting lumped

这方面。我是说，他确实将历史视为一个宏大工程，对吧？他非常关注历史的形态和时间的形态。里面有很多非常有趣、疯狂的科幻主题。

in that. I mean, he does see history as this grand project. Right? And he is very preoccupied with the shape of history and the shape of time. A lot of really interesting, crazy sci fi themes in there.

但我并不真的...你知道，他肯定是那种能就敌基督、西方传统末世论等话题展开讨论的人。这些他确实偶尔提及，但我不认为这是他作品的核心主题。比如，在Xenosystems中这就不是关键主题，对吧？那本重新激起人们对他作品兴趣的书。

But I don't really I you know, he he's somebody that I'm sure could hold a conversation about, like, the Antichrist and so on and eschatology in the Western tradition. That is something he's talked about now and then, but I don't see that as a key theme in his works. And, like, you know, as an example, that's not a key theme in Xenosystems. Right? Like, the book that, like, kind of has, reignited some interest and some attention in his work.

你知道，我我我我说这个并不是什么内容警告。我不是那种人，但但，你知道，我会说如果你是那种喜欢紧握珍珠项链、对读到的东西容易生气的人，那就别别读Xenosystems。对吧？但但如果你是那种愿意阅读来自一位哲学家广泛思想的人，他致力于无拘无束的思想工作，你能欣赏那种试图深入思考的粗糙与疯狂，那么我认为从一个相当罕见的视角来看，这是一篇非常有趣的文章。

You know, I I I I say this I'm not this is not like a content warning. I'm not that but but, you know, I'd say if you're the type of person that wants to clutch their pearls and, like, get upset about, like, things that you read, then don't don't read Xenosystems. Right? But but if you're the type of person that wants to read a wide array of ideas from someone whose dedication as a philosopher to unfettered idea work and you can appreciate that sort of sloppiness and craziness of someone who's really trying to think through things, then I think that it's a really interesting piece from a perspective that isn't is pretty uncommon.

是的。本周关于他的大量讨论中真正凸显的一点是，我其实不认为硅谷有自己的哲学社群。比如，你无法指着硅谷的某个人说，这是关键哲学家，因为硅谷大多数人都是实干家，他们在建造东西，他们对待艺术或项目的方式非常不同。所以我想，这是否部分源于我们缺乏这样一种哲学文化，以至于他可能因为某种非常独特的东西而获得赞誉？

Yeah. The one thing that really came out from a lot of the conversations and discourse happening this week on him is like, I actually don't think Silicon Valley has its own philosophical community. Like, you can't point to someone in Silicon Valley and say, This is the key philosopher because most people in Silicon Valley are doers and they're building things and they have a very different way of how they interact with whether it's their art or their projects. And so I guess is part of this that we just lack such a philosophical culture that maybe he's getting credit for something that's very distinct?

我同意这点。我认为这是个很好的解读。延伸这个解读，有件事我一直——居然在播客上提到这个让我很惊讶——这有点像埃迪的淋浴时的灵光一现。对吧。

I agree with that. I think that's a great read. And in extend that read something that's been, I'm amazed to mention this on a podcast. This is kind of like an Eddie shower thought here. Right.

但是，但是，就像，但我，我，有一段时间，因为我告诉过你，我，我，我在学校学过哲学。这是我长期以来的兴趣。对吧。我，我有点这种挥之不去的信念，你知道，不是完全确定，但有种感觉，我认为许多伟大的哲学家都是附带现象（用个哲学术语），意味着他们的工作某种程度上捕捉了他们所处文化已有的精神，他们可能在很多作品中——并非总是如此，但很多时候——实际上是在出色地捕捉时代精神和其他思想家的思考成果。

But, but like, but I've, I've, for some time, because I told you, I, I, I did philosophy in school. It's been like a longtime interest of mine. Right. I, I kind of have this like lingering belief, you know, not, not something I'm totally sure about, but like a feeling that I think a lot of the great philosophers were epiphenomenal to use a philosophy word, which means that their work was sort of capturing what was already in the spirit of the culture that they were occupying and that they may have made in a lot of their works. This is not always the case, but a lot of the time, we're actually doing a brilliant job capturing the spirit of the times and capturing what thinkers were working on.

而我们回顾时视他们为因果，对吧，认为是他们引发了那些时期。但实际上，他们只是拍下了一张美丽的结晶快照，如今回溯性地代表了那个时期。是的。我认为搬到硅谷让我坚定了这个信念，因为我想起2011年来硅谷时，总听说硅谷不可思议的雄心壮志，以为要承担如此宏大的项目——你知道吗？

And we look back on them as causal, right, as having caused those periods. But in fact, they're just taking a beautiful crystallized snapshot that now becomes, you know, retroactively representative of that period. Yes. I think moving to Silicon Valley gave me conviction in this belief because I thought of when I came to Silicon Valley in 2011, when I came by, I thought that to embark on such grand projects, I always heard about the incredible ambition of Silicon Valley. You know?

这一直是我印象深刻的，比如那种改变世界的巨大意愿，这种疯狂。我曾以为这需要一种明确的哲学动机，如果不是精神动机的话。对吧？我以为需要这种。所以我想来到硅谷后，会遇到一群信奉非常具体——你知道，明确心怀这类体系的人，但他们根本不是这样。

I that was always something that stuck out to me, like the massive the willingness to change the world of this sort of craziness. I thought of this as something that required a distinctly philosophical motivation, if not a spiritual motivation. Right? I thought of it as something that required this. And so I thought that when I came to Silicon Valley, I'd meet a bunch of people who adhered to very specific you know, explicitly held in their hearts these types of systems, and they don't at all.

对吧？根本不是。实际情况是，人们生活在这种文化中，就像鱼在水中，他们只是游弋其中，有些人非常擅长稍微抓住它，并用语言捕捉它的精神，通过格言，如果不是完整的哲学论文的话。对吧？

Right? They don't at all. And what actually is the case is that people live in this, it's like a fish in water, right? They just kind of like swim in this culture and some people can, are so good at getting a little grip on it and, and like capturing it in words, it's spirit and words through aphorisms, if not full, fully developed philosophical treaties. Right?

而且，兰德确实捕捉到了其中一部分，我会说，是最极端且有趣的密码朋克元素。他经历了一段有趣的进化历程，许多人对互联网的反应也是如此，但我并不认为这是因果关系。对吧？我不认为人们发展AI的行为是在追随尼克·兰德。说实话，这在我看来很荒谬。

And, Land captures some of that, some of the, I would say, kind of more some of the most extreme and interesting cypherpunk elements of it for sure. And he has gone on an interesting evolutionary journey that many have in their reaction to the internet, but I don't see it as causal. Right? I don't think people are acting out developing AI following Nick Land. Like, that's that's honestly absurd to me.

相反，尼克·兰德对此的深刻热情以及他在其发展中看到的极端后果，是硅谷许多人出于其他各种原因所共有的。

But instead, Nick Land's, like, profound enthusiasm about it and his seeing extreme consequences in its development is something that a lot of people in Silicon Valley share for a variety of other reasons.

是的。我认为他还非常擅长一点，硅谷实际上也理解这一点，即建设者文化与思考者文化的区别，他非常擅长制造模因，非常擅长命名事物。硅谷在乎这个，对吧？所以，加速主义就像是一个美丽的概念，一个美丽的词，而且它还能深入人心，对吧？我们需要这样的词汇。

Yeah. One thing I think he's also very good at that Silicon Valley actually understands and sort of the builder culture versus the thinking culture is he's extremely good at memes, extremely good at naming things. And Silicon Valley cares about that, right? So it's like, of course, accelerationism is like a beautiful it's a beautiful concept, it's a beautiful word, and it's also something that sticks, right? Like we need those words.

所以我想这其中还有一点，我们作为一个生态系统极度缺乏作家和思想家，因为人们来硅谷不是为了写作，而是为了建设。如果你以作家的身份来到这里，你会被吸纳到我们生态系统的某个方面，以至于在很多方面你不再写作。感觉他在某些地方与我们相连，你知道，我们的世界实际上理解某些语言的部分，即使我们并不理解真正的教义。

So I guess there's something about that too where we're so devoid as an ecosystem of writers and thinkers because people don't come to Silicon Valley to write, they come to Silicon Valley to build. And if you come as a writer, you get co opted into some aspect of our ecosystem where you're not writing in many ways. It feels like he's kind of connected at places where, you know, our world actually understands certain parts of the language, even if we don't understand the actual doctrines.

完全同意。有些人提出这样的批评，他们说

Totally. And some people make this critique that they

比如，加速主义，有些人认为它有点像‘烧毁一切’，但为了变得更好，有些东西需要被烧毁，从而加速这个过程。这是其中的一个分支。硅谷某种程度上采纳了这个词，赋予‘加速’更积极的含义，某种意义上是在建设。有些人会批评说，因为我们这样做，我们其实并不真正理解原始哲学。或者实际上，我们只是在利用它达到自己的目的。

say, hey, accelerationism, some people had this view that it was kind of like a burn it all down, but things needed to be burned down to get better and sort of accelerate that. That's like one branch of it. That Silicon Valley sort of adopted that to mean, that term acceleration in a more positive, you know, build up in some sense. And some people would critique and say, oh, because we're doing that, we're like, we don't quite understand the original philosophy or something. Or maybe in fact, we're just using it for our own purposes.

你懂吗？

You know?

是啊。不过呢，思想史上充斥着这类挪用发明的例子，比如左翼加速主义。对吧？

Yeah. Well well but but the the the history of thought is full of these types of inventions of co opting, like Yeah. Yeah. Left accelerationism. Right?

这个概念是说通过加速、扩大规模——比如把别针工厂扩大千倍，把整个星球变成别针工厂——来激化资本主义矛盾。然后最终它会自我引爆，我们就能回归到共产主义者设想的状态。

Which is like this idea that you heighten the contradictions of capitalism by, like, being faster, bigger, make the pin factory a thousand times bigger, make the planet a pin factory. Right? And then, like, then, like, it will eventually detonate, and then we can return to whatever communists think.

对。

Yeah.

但右翼加速主义其实...我觉得右翼加速主义有很多微妙之处。有人认为它会导致某种怪异的灾难——以好的方式，不管那是什么意思；也有人认为它本质上是个建设性项目。对吧？

But then but, of course, right acceleration lie. I in fact, I'd say I think there's a lot of nuance in right acceleration. There are some people who think that it leads to kind of a bizarre cataclysm, and there are in a good way, whatever that means. And then there are some people that think of it as just a fundamentally productive project. Right?

就像丰裕创造丰裕，再创造丰裕。加速催生加速，我们至今享受着这些成果，为何不更进一步呢？

It's like abundance creates abundance, creates abundance, right? Acceleration creates acceleration. And we've enjoyed these fruits so far. Why not more?

明白了。那么对于这周刚听了几期播客，真正产生兴趣的新手，该从哪里入门？你觉得最值得先研读哪些著作？比如你的尼克·兰德导览路线会怎么安排？

Yeah. So could I ask, you know, people who have heard a couple podcasts this week and are like, actually, I'm really interested. For the novice, where do you begin? What's the most interesting work to dive into first? Like, where would your sort of Eddie's tour of Nick Land begin?

就像开头说的，其实你没必要理解尼克·兰德。没关系，关掉播客去接触现实，做你自己的事就好。真的没必要。

Well, like I like I said at the beginning, the truth is you don't need to understand Nick Land. It's okay. Turn off the podcast, touch grass, and do your thing. You don't need to.

再给我们看看那张照片？就展示一下

Show us the picture again? Just show us

那张照片。对，对。你真的想理解这个吗？你真的想理解这个新的

the picture. Yeah. Yeah. Do you really wanna understand this? Do you really wanna understand the new

再来一次？这是《费城阳光灿烂》里的丹尼·杜比亚。对，对，对。

one again? It's the it's sunny in Philadelphia with Danny Dubia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

我...我不觉得你想。但如果你真的想理解这类东西，比如，我会建议带个大型语言模型辅助你，因为他的作品非常密集，充满了对其他哲学家的引用和特定短语与框架。我认为Xenosystems是个很好的起点。如果你想感受氛围，我觉得那篇关于崩溃的文章很棒。当然，再次提醒内容警告之类的。

I I don't I don't think you do. But if you but if you really do wanna understand these types of things, like, I'd say bring bring an LLM along to support you because there's all it's a very dense his work is very, very dense, full of references to other philosophers and specific phrases and framings. I think Xenosystems is a great place to start. If you wanna just get the vibe, I think that meltdown essay is really good. It's, you know, again, content warning or whatever.

但我觉得那是感受氛围的好方式。对，我想说的大概就这些。或许我会在笔记里放些链接。他在播客里表现也很出色。

But I think that that's a great way to get the vibe. Yeah. I think that's I mean, I could say more. Maybe I'll put some links in in the notes. He's also great on podcasts.

他真是...太有趣了。我记得大约十五年前第一次听说他时，几乎被描述成个威胁性人物，现在回想起来简直难以置信。但如果你听他在播客里的谈吐，会发现他是最温和的人，最亲切的家伙。

He's such a it's so funny. We hear this I remember the first time I heard of him, like, fifteen years ago or so. I I I remember he was explained to me as a menacing figure almost, which is incredible in retrospect. But if you listen to him on one of the podcasts, he's, like, the most gentle guy. He's, the sweetest guy.

真的，他简直是最温柔的人。我都没法...虽然从未见过他，但他看起来非常...而且表达极其清晰。那种用词非常精准、谨慎、深思熟虑的类型。我想你会喜欢的，不过可能需要1.5倍速播放。

He's, like, literally the sweetest guy. I can't even I mean, I've never I've never met him, but he seems like a very And very clear. A very clear, very careful, very deliberate with his words type of guy. I think you'll enjoy it. You might have to play things at 1.5 x.

这并不是我我我推荐给我的视频内容采用相同处理方式，仅供参考。不过，我觉得直接投入实践就好，坦白说，大型语言模型的表现令我相当惊艳——特别是当你给它们一些思考时间，让它们参考某些链接时，它们确实能出色地将内容整理成清晰易读的形式。所以我认为这是个

That's not I I I recommend the same thing for my my stuff my videos for what it's worth. But, yeah, I think just, you know, just just dive in, and I think I've been pretty impressed candidly with the the ways LLMs, especially when you give them some think time and you let them look at some links, they do a really good job of putting things into very legible form. So I think it's a

很好的收尾时机。埃迪，感谢你的参与。

good place to good place to wrap. Eddie, thanks for coming on.

非常感谢你能来。

Thanks so much for coming.

感谢收听本期a16z播客。若喜欢本期内容，请务必点赞、评论、订阅、留下评分或评价，并与亲友分享。更多节目请访问YouTube、Apple Podcasts和Spotify。在X平台关注@a16z，订阅我们的Substack请访问a16z.com。再次感谢收听，下期节目再见。

Thanks for listening to this episode of the a 16 z podcast. If you like this episode, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, and share it with your friends and family. For more episodes, go to YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. Follow us on x at a sixteen z, and subscribe to our Substack@a16z..com. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.

温馨提示：本内容仅作信息参考，不作为法律、商业、税务或投资建议，亦不用于评估任何投资或证券，且不针对任何a16z基金的现有或潜在投资者。请注意a16z及其关联机构可能持有本期播客讨论企业的投资。更多详情及投资披露链接请见a16z.com/disclosures。

As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only, should not be taken as legal business, tax, or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a sixteen z fund. Please note that a sixteen z and its affiliates may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in this podcast. For more details, including a link to our investments, please see a sixteen z dot com forward /disclosures.