《收购》十年（与迈克尔·刘易斯共话）

在某个时刻，我们互相看了看，心想：或许如果我们坦然承认自己受到严重限制，然后像爱马仕坚持每只柏金包必须由一位工匠手工制作那样，尝试充分利用这种限制来建立商业模式。

And at some point, we kinda looked at each other and we're like, maybe if we just admit that we we are heavily constrained, and then try to just lean into that constraint in the way that Hermes leans into every single Birkin bag must be handmade by one artisan, and we're gonna build a business model around that.

结果证明这是个很棒的商业模式。

And it turns out to be a great business.

我们某种程度上认为每期节目都将由我们全程手工打造，包括所有研究和录制工作。

We sort of thought every episode is gonna be entirely handcrafted by us, all the research, all the recording.

我们与这位出色的音频工程师史蒂文合作，他负责实际的波形编辑，但你知道，我们会在每期节目的文字稿中标注上千处剪辑点。

We work with this amazing audio engineer, Steven, who does the the, like, literal waveform editing, but, you know, we go in and in a transcript highlight a thousand cuts per episode.

就像这个充满爱心的产品，结果证明我们确实能在严重受限的条件下打造出一个大平台和好生意。

Like, it's this made with love product, and it turned out we could actually build a big platform and a good business out of something heavily constrained.

但你们并非一开始就这样。

But that's not where you start.

不是的。

No.

不，不是的。

No, no.

那么让我们告诉不了解情况的人，你们最初是两个互相欣赏的男人相遇了

So let's just say for people who don't know, where you start is you're two guys who've met each other and got a crush on each other.

你们喜欢和对方在一起

You love being with each other.

然后你们想到做一个关于成功企业收购案例的播客会很酷

And you get this idea that it would be really cool to do a podcast on corporate acquisitions that worked.

成功的案例

That worked.

馊主意

Bad idea.

好吧，至少是个主意

Well, it is an idea.

这确实是个起点

Would It was a starting point.

你们本可以很容易地从相反方向开始

You could easily have started the opposite.

那些失败的企业收购案例，你们本可以有更多素材可讲。

Corporate acquisitions that didn't, and you'd have done much, more material.

这正是当时大多数媒体的关注点。

Which is what most press at the time was.

当时都在讨论这次收购有多糟糕。

It was let's talk about how crappy this acquisition So

让我觉得有趣的是，你们从一开始就选择了积极的角度。

it's interesting to me that your first step right from the start is positive.

关注的是成功案例，而非失败案例。

It's like what worked, not what didn't work.

重点在于成功的经验。

It's what worked.

那是因为我们当时是风投，我正在努力创建公司。

That's because we were VCs and I was trying to build companies.

我的意思是，目标就是创造足够价值，要么被收购，要么上市。

I mean, the goal was create things that have enough value to get bought or go public.

人们购买东西，是因为它们确实有效。

And when people buy things, it's because they're working.

所以让我们尝试逆向工程，理解

So let's try to reverse engineer We what understand

为什么事情会成功。

why things worked.

对。

Right.

这与几乎所有新闻工作的出发点都不同。

So that's a different starting spot from almost all journalism.

事实上，如果大多数记者从这个角度出发，他们会被指责为歌功颂德。

In fact, if most journalists started there, they'd be accused of hagiography of Yes.

但由于你的出发点不同，而且你从非常实际的角度思考问题，比如为什么这个能成功，所以你确实可以这么做。

But because of where you're coming from, and because you're thinking of this in very practical terms, like why did this work, you do get away with it.

只是第一集里，你们几乎像是完全不同的人。

It's just that first episode, you're almost like different people.

但我会保留我对你们所学内容的看法。

But I'm going to hold back on what I think you've learned.

因为我想看看你们是否能自己领悟到。

Because I want to see if you get to it.

那么你们从第三集中学到了什么经验教训？

So what's the third episode that you have learned a lesson from?

我认为伯克希尔公司让我们学到了很多。

I think Berkshire, we learned so many things from.

我们制作了这个三部分的

We did this three part

关于伯克希尔·哈撒韦的歌曲。

song about Berkshire Hathaway.

天啊，我还没听过呢。

God, have not listened to it.

而我可是伯克希尔·哈撒韦的大投资者。

And I am a big investor in Berkshire Hathaway.

你真棒。

Good for you.

恭喜你。

Congratulations.

从什么时候开始的？

Since when?

我是在金融危机最严重时买入的。

I bought it right in the middle of the financial crisis.

因为我觉得我已经做过一次评论了，我的意思是，这样说可能有点过于强烈了。

Because I thought I I had done a take I mean, it's not it's a little putting it a little strongly.

但奇怪的是，我曾在《新共和》杂志封面上写过一篇批评沃伦·巴菲特的文章，标题叫《圣沃伦的诱惑》。

But oddly, I had written a takedown of Warren Buffet on the cover of the New Republic magazine called The Temptation of Saint Warren.

你大概可以从互联网档案馆里挖出来。

You can probably dig it off of the way back.

论点是什么？

What was the thesis?

论点是，他最初可能是他自称的那种人，但在市场上已变成了截然不同的存在。

The thesis was that he may have started out being who he says he is, but that he's become this very different thing in the marketplace.

他的钱和别人的钱不一样。

His money is not like other people's money.

确实如此。

That's true.

你没有沃伦·巴菲特所拥有的那几样东西。

And you don't have a couple of things Warren Buffett has.

而且他的钱被以不同的方式估值。

And his money is valued differently.

但其次，他当时愿意做那些交易，这让我非常不爽。

But secondly, he was willing to do deals that, at the time, bothered the hell out of me.

而当时的情况是

And what had happened was

比如高盛那笔交易？

Like the Goldman deal?

因为所罗门兄弟公司的交易让他非常恼火。他保留了CEO的职位，而我认为这个人根本不该留任。你当时在场吗？

Because it was a Solomon Brothers deal that bothered the hell out of He kept the CEO in place, who I thought should not have been Were you there?

我当时在场。

I was there.

是啊，你经历过...

Yeah, you lived through

不，是经历过的，可能是我们伯克希尔系列的一部分。

No, was through so maybe part of our Berkshire series.

这件事让我短暂地——真的只是很短时间——对沃伦·巴菲特产生了怀疑。

It turned me briefly only briefly, actually cynical about Warren Buffett.

但后来我摆脱了这种想法，又重新爱上了他。

And then I came out of it and fell in love with him all over again.

但我写了那篇文章，彻底惹恼了他。

But I had written this thing and pissed him off entirely.

我是说，那显然让他很生气。

I mean, it would clearly upset him.

然后开始更长时间地观察他。

And then kind of started watching him for longer.

我觉得我就是喜欢他。

And I thought, I just liked him.

就是喜欢他。

Just liked him.

你没办法不喜欢他。

You couldn't help but like him.

于是我开始心软了。

So I started to soften.

等到金融危机时，我想，他的资金在这里会变得非常宝贵。

And when we get to the financial crisis, I thought, well, his money is going be so valuable here.

现在最需要的是信贷。

What is needed is credit.

我认为如果他活得够久，这种情况可能很快会再次发生。

And I think if he stays alive long enough, it might happen again soon.

在金融危机后那些传奇交易出现之前就投资了伯克希尔。

Invested in Berkshire before the legendary deals coming out of the financial crisis.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以我买了一大堆A股，然后就一直持有。

And so I bought a chunk of the A shares, And I've just sat on them.

让我告诉你——我能讲个沃伦·巴菲特的故事吗？

And let me tell you can I tell you a Warren Buffett story?

我是说，就是随便聊聊。

I mean, is little talking.

我有点脱离学校了。

I'm a little bit out of school.

但我从没见过他。

But I've never met him.

我知道他当时对我很恼火。

I know he was really irritated with me.

然后我实际上回顾了那件事。

And then I actually look back at that.

这是我唯一一次回顾自己写过的文章，然后觉得——我那次确实做过头了。

It's the only time I've ever looked back at a piece I wrote and I thought, I overdid that.

我立即回到《新共和》杂志，又写了篇5000字关于沃伦·巴菲特的文章，基本上是在为第一篇道歉。

I went right back to The New Republic and wrote another 5,000 word thing about Warren Buffett, in which I basically apologized for the first piece.

我是在2008年买的这些股票。

I bought these shares in 2008.

当时我正在写《无限游戏》这本书，也就是关于山姆·班克曼-弗里德的那本。

When I was working on Going Infinite, I was working on the Sam Bankman Fried book.

我和一位公关人员聊天，话题完全与沃伦·巴菲特无关。

And I was talking to a publicist, completely unrelated to Warren Buffett.

她说：‘我也代表沃伦。’

And she said, I also represent Warren.

她说：‘我告诉沃伦我一直在和你交谈。’

She said and I told Warren that I've been talking to you.

他说，他有个问题要问你。

And he said, he has a question for you.

我问，什么问题？

And I said, what?

他说，'他就是那个在中期——不，是早期买入股票的迈克尔·刘易斯吗？'

He says, is he the Michael Lewis who bought shares back in mid- no.

我向天发誓。

I swear to God.

我向天发誓。

I swear to God.

这更多说明了沃伦·巴菲特的为人，而非我的。

So this tells you something about Warren Buff, more about Warren Buff than me.

他还说他是按账面价值买的，你知道那个比率吧？

And he said he bought it like the book value to, you know, that thing, that ratio?

他是在股价史上最低时买入的。

He bought it as cheap as it's ever been.

然后他说这相当

And he says That's pretty

你做了最棒的交易。

You made the best trade.

等等，别挂

Wait, hold

别挂

on, hold

等等，各位。

Hold on, guys.

然后他说他就是那个两年前和四年前卖出了一些伯克希尔哈撒韦股份的迈克尔·刘易斯。

And then he says so he's the Michael Lewis who sold some Berkshire Hathaway two years ago and four years ago.

他当时问，为什么要卖出？

And he was like, why did he sell?

所以他一直在追踪。

So he's tracking.

他在追踪。

I'm He's tracking.

不像这里的先锋集团。

Not like Vanguard here.

不，不，不。

No, no, no.

我说，其实我只是把他捐给了慈善机构，这就是我所做的。

And I said, Well, actually, I actually just gave him to charity is what I'd done.

我已经把钱捐出去了。

I've given the money away.

这太难以置信了。

That's unbelievable.

当他听到时，她说他会很欣慰听到这种事。

And when he heard, she said that he'll be relieved to hear that kind of thing.

就像，你能想象吗？

It's like, So can you imagine?

你能想象沃伦·巴菲特会花时间关注A股市场的进出动向并思考这个问题吗？

Can you imagine that Warren Buffett is taking the time to watch who is coming in and out of the A shares and thinking about it?

我是说，芒格曾有个观点：别把钱投进指数基金。

I mean, just thought and Munger had that whole thing about don't put your money in an index fund.

要把资金集中投入一批股票。

Put your money in a big bundle of stocks.

精选几只股票，像鹰隼般紧盯它们。

Put it in a few stocks and watch those stocks like a hawk.

他们这种监控方式在历史上都堪称绝无仅有——

They watch that thing in a way that just in history, has anybody ever done anything like

我是说，这些人都是偏执狂。

mean, all these people are they're the maniacs.

若非如此，根本不可能建成这样的——

You don't build something like this if

你说得完全正确。

you're not That's exactly right.

总之，抱歉我跑题了。

So anyway, sorry I digressed here.

不过你从伯克希尔的三期节目中学到了什么？

But what did you learn from your Berkshire your three episodes of Berkshire Hathaway?

嗯，就《Acquired》节目而言，我们真的对能力圈概念着迷了——拥有一个‘太难’清单是完全没问题的。

Well, as it applies to Acquired, we got really obsessed with the circle of competence, that it's okay to have a giant too hard pile.

有很多事情是我无法明智地说‘不’的。

There's a bunch of things that, like, I'm not intelligently saying no to.

我们过去

We used

经常这么说。

to say this all the time.

就像‘太难清单’。

It'd be like, too hard pile.

我们每次电话会议都会提到‘太难’

Every phone call we'd have would be like, too

难处理的堆。

hard the pile.

你们用的表达方式？

Expression you're using?

沃伦和查理有这么个说法。

Warren and Charlie had this thing.

有'同意'堆、'拒绝'堆，还有'太难'堆。

There was the yes pile, the no pile, and then the too hard pile.

哦，就是'太难'堆。

Oh, the too hard pile.

明白了。

I see.

好的。

Okay.

这没关系。

And it's okay.

而且它

And it

所有技术都属于'太难'堆。

was all technology was a too hard pile.

是啊，就是那种'这里面可能有点东西，但对我来说太难了'的感觉。

Yeah, it was just all yeah, was like, there might be something in here, but like, I'm just too hard.

这基本上是在承认我们的机会成本太高了，我们选择说'是'的那些事情太棒了，所以对一大堆事情说'太难'也没关系。

It's basically admitting that like our opportunity cost is so high, like the things that we say yes to are so awesome that it's okay to say too hard to just a giant amount of things.

没错。

Yep.

一旦我们开始真正接受这一点，就感觉非常解脱。

And that was really freeing once we started just like, I mean, truly on

大部分是自己的。

most of own.

你说这个让我很惊讶。

Of something that you I'm surprised you say this.

什么是太难的原因？除了仅仅想见你，因为你一直是我们永远的灵感来源，我几个月前想见你的另一个原因就是好莱坞。

What's too hard for The reason that one of the reasons besides just wanting to meet you because you've been an inspiration to us forever that I I wanted to to meet you a few months ago was Hollywood.

我们曾有很多与好莱坞合作的机会。

We've had lots of opportunities to work with Hollywood.

但到目前为止，这两者总是不可避免地最终被归入'太难'的一堆。

It keeps being To this point, the two thus always invariably ended up in the too hard pile.

你是指要在好莱坞拍剧集吗？

Are you talking about doing episodes in Hollywood?

不，不，是拍成电影或其他科幻节目。

No, no, no, to become movies or other sci shows.

创作纪录片。

Creating Creating documentary.

是的。

Yes.

将这些故事改编成电影。

Adapting these stories into films.

这些听起来都不错，直到我们开始深入研究，然后我们就意识到，要全面考虑所有影响所需的时间

They all sound good until we start digging in, then we're like, the time it would take us to think through all the implications of this

我们干脆再拍一集吧

We just make another episode.

答案几乎总是：我们应该直接再拍一集

The answer almost always is we should just make another episode.

这是个非常明智的落脚点，因为他们会用热情吸引你，然后把你拖进一个无底洞，耗费你数年光阴却一无所获

That's a really intelligent place to land because what they will do is woo you with their enthusiasm and then take you down a rabbit hole where you will spend years of your life and have nothing to show

为了。

for.

嗯，这是我想和他谈谈的原因之一。

Well, is one the reasons I want to talk to him.

迈克尔是个非常聪明的人。

Michael's a very smart guy.

你一直非常成功。

You've been very successful.

我已经掉进兔子洞了。

I've gone down the rabbit hole.

是啊。

Yeah.

但你现在的认知水平

But your level of knowing now

是因为当时确实没有太多更好的事情可做。

was that it didn't have a whole lot else better to do at the time.

就像两本书之间的空档期。

It's like between books.

就像味觉清洁剂。

It's a palate cleanser.

你根本没有两本书之间的空档期。

You don't have a between books period.

你知道

You know

我们需要这样。

We need to yeah.

是的，我没有那个。

Yeah, I don't have that.

我没有你有的那种机器。

I the don't machine you have.

你有一条流水线在运作。

You've got an assembly line going.

而且这是个复合资产。

And it's a compounding asset.

我是说，播客最疯狂的地方在于，这能对我们奏效的很大原因是，我们做了大量类似书籍研究和写作的工作。

I mean, is the craziest, craziest thing about podcasting, and like a giant amount of why this has worked for us is we do a lot of work that looks a lot like the research and the writing of a book.

但当我们制作并发布我们的'书'时，人们会点击订阅。

But when we make our book and we release it to the world, people click subscribe.

所以当我们发布

And so when we release the

接下来那些

next those

同一批人会去收听

same people go listen.

几乎可以保证

Like, it's almost guaranteed.

我们一直在扩大基础受众

We're always growing our base.

播客和作家身份都有松散的复合效应元素，但远不及我当年谈论的那种程度

Podcasting, being an author, there's loose compounding elements to it, but there's not a like literal Not nearly way when I got of talking to

进入写书这个行业时，我曾以为会...我稍微思考过这个问题

into the business of writing books, I thought there was going to I thought about this a little bit.

所以你是对的

And I so you're right.

但你可能做得比...你是少数几个

It's But you've probably done it better than You're one of few

那些可能确实拥有

people who probably does have

我有个想法，要游历美国各个野心之地——华尔街、硅谷、华盛顿、电影业、体育界等各种领域。

such I a thought I'm going to move around America to the various arenas of ambition Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Washington, movie business, sports, the various things.

我自然会吸引对那个领域感兴趣的观众。

I'll naturally attract the audience that is interested in that arena.

然后我会把他们带到其他领域。

Then I'll drag them along to the others.

实际上并没有这样发展。

It hasn't really happened that way.

连你也是吗？

Even for you?

并不完全是。

Not really.

确实没有。

Not really.

这些书有一定的市场。

The books have a kind of market.

而且这个市场相当大。

And it's a big market big ish market.

但我没有看到任何证据表明我在带动读者。

But it doesn't I see no evidence that I'm dragging people along with me.

我觉得每本书都像是另一次创业。

I feel like each book feels like another startup.

我必须重新出发去实现它，就像从没写过书一样。

And that I've got to go out and make it happen almost as if I've not written one.

现在这是

Now that's

《点球成金》的观众不一定是正确的。

Moneyball audience is not necessarily Correct.

《第五风险》。

Fifth risk.

确实如此。

Exactly.

最终受众群体就是会有所不同。

And the audiences end up just being different.

这就是现实情况。

So it's just the way it is.

但你的情况并非如此。

But that's not true with yours.

那不是

That's not

确实 所以每次如果你要抽时间去好莱坞发展，就等于放弃这个辉煌的听众网络。

true So for every time, if you were to take time off to go do something in Hollywood, you'd be abandoning this glorious network.

机会成本太高了——如果我们花一个月不做《Acquired》节目，因为每当我们发布一期节目时，听众基础确实会跟随我们。

The opportunity cost is so high of spending a month not making an Acquired episode because when we publish an episode of Acquired, the base does come with us.

就到此为止吧。

Just wrap up it.

就像是的。

Like Yes.

你知道，我们建立了关于医疗保健的宏大系统，所有听LVMH节目的人现在都在学习医生办公室的IT系统是如何运作的。

You know, we make epic systems about health care, and all the people who listen to LVMH are now learning how doctor's office IT works.

对。

Right.

所以播客的独特之处在于它确实拥有真正的订阅用户基础，但与其他点击订阅的平台不同，这里没有算法平台来切断你与听众的联系。

So podcasts are unique in that it does have that true subscriber base, but unlike anything else where you click subscribe, there's not an algorithmic platform that disintermediates you.

我是说，想想YouTube或Twitter之类的平台。

I mean, think YouTube or Twitter or any of these.

当有人点击关注或订阅时，这更像是给算法发送信号，但并不保证能触达。

When someone clicks follow or subscribe, they're like it's like signal in the algorithm, but it's not guaranteed.

但在Apple播客或Spotify上订阅的话，这些用户是真正订阅了，他们肯定会收到下一期节目。

But like you subscribe in Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and those people are actually subscribed and they're going to get the next episode.

对。

Right.

他们学会了信任你。

And they learn to trust you.

他们学会信任你，因为如果你感兴趣，他们也会感兴趣。

They learn to trust you that if you're interested, they'll be interested.

事实上，他们购买的并非主题本身，而是你对该主题的兴趣。

In fact, what they're buying into is not the subject, but your interest in the subject.

是的。

Yes.

我非常害怕辜负这种信任。

And I am terrified of betraying that trust.

每次制作一期节目时，我都将其视为流失听众的机会。

Like anytime we make an episode, I think of it as a churn opportunity.

如果我们把这期节目放进订阅源，却没有达到听众的期望，我们就会...

If we put this in the feed, if we don't live up to the expectations that our listeners have, we will

伤害他们，然后他们会离开我们。这就是为什么'Acquired'的工作框架中，恐惧元素是其运作的重要动力。

burn them and In they will leave us the why does acquired work framework, there's a strong element of terror of why it works.

我们每次制作节目时都如履薄冰。

We're constantly terrified every time we make an episode.

每一分钟都是真正的机会。

Every minute is a true opportunity.

我们是否让大家失望了？

Are we letting people down?

好了，听众朋友们。

Alright, listeners.

现在正是感谢我们的赞助商摩根大通支付的好时机。

Now is a great time to thank our presenting partner, JPMorgan Payments.

我们想分享上周与他们合作的一件很酷的事——在拉斯维加斯共同举办的大型现场演出。

And we wanna tell you about something pretty cool that we just did with them last week, which was a big live show in Las Vegas together.

《收购》节目常驻拉斯维加斯啦，宝贝。

Acquired residency in Las Vegas, baby.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

但我们确实在AWS Reinvent大会上登上了美丽的威尼斯人剧院的舞台。

But what we did do is we took the stage at the beautiful Venetian Theater at AWS Reinvent.

我们进行了四场非常精彩的采访，对象分别是Netflix、Perplexity、AWS和摩根大通支付的CEO们。

We did four really just incredible interviews with the CEOs of Netflix, Perplexity, AWS, and JPMorgan payments.

本，我不得不说，回想起来那真是格外特别。

And I will say, Ben, it was extra special in retrospect.

我们当时正在与Netflix的联合CEO格雷格·彼得斯交谈，询问他Netflix如何重塑好莱坞——就在他们宣布收购华纳兄弟前几个小时。

We were talking with Greg Peters, the co CEO of Netflix, and asking him how Netflix is reshaping Hollywood just a few hours before they announced the Warner Brothers acquisition.

考虑到我们当时在拉斯维加斯，他的扑克脸打得相当不错。

He has a pretty good poker face given that we were, you know, in Vegas and all that.

是啊

Yeah.

他确实如此

That he does.

还有，在AWS自己的活动上采访他们的马特·加明也很有意思

Also, very funny to interview Matt Garmin from AWS at his own event.

我要说最有趣的对话之一是与摩根大通支付全球联席主管马克斯·纽基尔岑的交流

And I will say one of the most interesting conversations was with Max Newkirchen, the global co head of JPMorgan payments.

我们深入探讨了我一直好奇的问题

We dug into this question that I've always wondered about.

这家全球领先的银行是如何同时拥有这项技术业务的？该业务年收入达180亿美元，独立于摩根大通其他部门运营

How did the leading global bank also come to own this technology business that does $18,000,000,000 a year in annual revenue on its own separate from the rest of JPMorgan?

确实

Yeah.

这很疯狂

It's wild.

如果摩根大通的支付业务是一家独立公司，它很可能会跻身财富500强，但它同时也是摩根大通的一部分。

If JPMorgan payments were a standalone company, it would very likely be in the Fortune 500, but it's also part of JPMorgan.

麦克斯还向我们介绍了由摩根大通Connexus开发的JPM Coin，以及它如何帮助银行甚至杰米改变对区块链技术如何变革金融基础设施的思考。

Max also told us about JPM Coin developed by Connexus by JPMorgan and how it's helped the bank and even Jamie evolve their thinking on how blockchain technology is transforming financial infrastructure.

总的来说，这是很棒的一周。

Overall, it was a great week.

我们在展会现场的摩根大通展台逗留，还亲眼目睹了他们的开发者门户如何为客户进行实时演示。

We hung out at JPMorgan's booth on the show floor and got to see their developer portal being demoed live in action to customers too.

是的。

Yep.

如果你想了解更多关于这些支付创新以及摩根大通如何助力你的业务，请访问jpmorgan.com/acquired。

So if you wanna learn more about these innovations in payments and how JPMorgan can help power your business, head on over to jpmorgan.com/acquired.

你比两年前更害怕了吗？

Are you more terrified than you were two years ago?

你的增长是

Your growth is The

恐惧正在加剧。

terror is growing.

某种程度上，这不会是什么好事。

At some point, it's not going be a good thing.

我是说，保持一点紧张感是好的。

I mean, it's good to be a little on edge.

没错。

Yes.

但你不会想让自己陷入不得不反复做同样事情的境地。

But you don't want get yourself in a situation where you feel like you have to do the same thing over and over again.

因为最终会变得乏味。

Because eventually, will get old.

我们会回来的。

We'll come back.

我们最后会讨论牛市和熊市的案例。

We're going to get to the bull in the bear case at the end.

但这又回到了你从芒格和巴菲特那里学到的经验——设立'太难'分类是完全可以的。

But this is so back to the lesson that you gleaned from Munger and Buffett, it's Okay to have a too hard pile.

你说过，'太难'分类就像在好莱坞做事一样。

And you said and the too hard pile is like doing things in Hollywood.

但当我问这个问题时，你是否曾经遇到过这种情况？

But when I asked the question, did you ever run across this have you run across this?

你是否曾经遇到过某个课题，让你觉得'这实在太难了'？

Have you ever had a subject where you thought, oh, this is just too hard to do?

是啊。

Yeah.

哦，没错。

Oh, yeah.

能举个例子说明吗？

What would be an example of that?

我们在做美联储那期节目时删减了很多内容。

We cut pretty far down the line on doing an episode on the Fed.

是的。

Yeah.

我们走

We walked

开了。

away from it.

对。

Yep.

你说你们放弃了

You say you walked away from

它。

it.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们可能会回来，但这过程挺有意思的。

We might come back, but it's been quite fun.

知道总会有回来的那一刻

Know there'll be a moment to come back

回到它。

to it.

是啊，是啊。

Yeah, yeah.

我很高兴我们这次没有做，不，这次

I'm glad we didn't do it this No, this

会更好。

would be better.

这个世界。

The world.

尽管这会违反你关于做新闻性事情的规则。

Although it's going violate your rule about doing newsy things.

我们总是试图寻找那些必须具有永恒价值的东西，必须是必须的。

We always try and find things must be timelessness is like a must, must.

我们所做的一切都必须经得起时间考验，包括我们报道的公司。

Everything we do must be timeless, the company we're covering.

没有什么东西是永恒的。

Nothing's timeless.

那你这么说是什么意思？

So what do you mean by that?

必须做到的是，如果你在节目制作五年后重听这一期，它仍有80%的相关性。

It must be that if you listen to this, an episode that we make five years after we made it, it's 80% as relevant.

它仍将是世界上重要的机构。

It will still be an important institution in the world.

没错。

Right.

就像CNBC的文章在一个月后价值就只剩原来的2%了。

Like a CNBC article is worth 2% of its original value within a month.

对。

Right.

我们希望五年后任何内容仍能保持其原始价值的80%。

And we want to be worth 80% of our original value five years from now on any given piece of content.

所以这意味着你们在选择那些认为会存续下去的机构？

So does that mean you're picking institutions that you think will survive?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

所以这就像是一个基准线。

So that's like a baseline.

你们是如此波动剧烈，很多

You're such a volatile so much of

你们的内容涉及科技和金融领域，这些领域变化非常快。

your stuff is tech and finance where there's so much churn.

嗯，是的。

Well, yes.

过去并非如此。

This didn't used to be true.

你看看2020、2021年之前的任何内容，我们当时还没发现这个原则。

You look at anything pre 2020, 2021, we had not yet discovered this principle.

但我们真正出色的作品既永恒又应时。

But our real bangers are timeless and timely.

今年做谷歌相关的内容就是既永恒又应时。

Doing Google this year was timeless and timely.

对。

Right.

无论你怎么做，你触及到了我选择主题时试图达到的某种境界。

Having that however you do it, you're getting to something that I try to get to when I'm picking subjects.

但你的实现方式略有不同。

But you're doing it in a slightly different way.

我喜欢的是，当我对某个话题兴奋不已时，却发现其他人都不感兴趣。

What I like, when my socks start to go up and down about a subject, is when I'm really interested in it and nobody else is.

这意味着这个话题并不热门，没什么人在讨论。

That there aren't people it's not hot.

我发现这基本上适用于我所有的书，可能有个别例外，但大部分作品都是如此。

And I found with I think it's true of basically all my books maybe a couple exceptions, but a lot of the books.

比如在晚宴上，如果有人问我'最近在忙什么'

If I'm at a dinner party and someone asks me, what are you working on?

大约60秒后，我就能看到他们眼神开始游离。

And after about sixty seconds, I can see their eyes glaze over.

他们脸上写着：他为什么会对这个感兴趣？

Like, why is he interested in that?

这个话题完全无法引起他们的共鸣。

It's just not registering with them in any way.

后来我学会了干脆不提这些，因为看着他们失去兴趣也会浇灭我的热情。

And I've learned just to not even talk about it because it kills my interest to watch it kill their interest.

但我明白自己为何感兴趣，以及它为何重要。

But I know why I'm interested, and why it's important.

我并不依赖外界来告诉我它很重要。

And I'm not relying on the world telling me it's important.

这是个非常好的迹象。

That's a really good sign.

这就是你做的事和我们做的事之间的区别。

This is a difference between what you do and what we do.

因为我回顾你的所有作品时发现，它们几乎总是一些鲜为人知的故事，一旦成为迈克尔·刘易斯的书，就会变成众所周知的现象。

Because I feel like when I think through all your books, they're almost always a story of obscurity that once it becomes a Michael Lewis book, then it becomes a well known phenomenon.

《点球成金》就是如此。

Moneyball.

就像你总是在发掘那些几乎无人谈论的事物。

Like, you are discovering these things that kind of nobody's talking about.

而当我们做像'缺德舅'这样的选题时，有人会问'你在研究什么？'

Whereas when we do something like Trader Joe's, someone says, What are you working on?

我们就说，Trader Joe's。

And we're like, Trader Joe's.

他们就说，我

They're like, I

超爱Trader Joe's。

love Trader Joe's.

对对对。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

这就是区别所在。

So that is a difference.

你的选题都不冷门。

Your subjects are not obscure.

没错。

Right.

都是些最知名的企业。

The most famous corporations.

人们喜欢它，但并不真正理解它。

People love it, but they don't really understand it.

就像，秘密就藏在显而易见的地方。

Like, secret in hiding in plain sight.

就像，人们当初不理解Trader Joe's，或者不理解Google，我们当时觉得...没错。

Like, people didn't understand Trader Joe's, or people didn't understand Google, we thought when we Right.

有三要素能成就一期精彩的《Acquired》节目。

There's three things that make a great Acquired episode.

第一，要有一个引人入胜的英雄主角，经历英雄之旅——从默默无闻到无处不在，从无人问津到成为世界上最重要的事物。

One, there's a compelling hero protagonist that that takes a hero's journey, where we're going from obscurity to ubiquity, how it starts as this thing that nobody cares about, and then it becomes the most important thing in the world.

没错。

Right.

第二是存在一个显而易见的秘密，就像Costco那样。

Two is there's a secret hiding in plain sight, like Costco.

我觉得普通消费者看到Costco时，他们会说'啊，我超爱Costco'。

I think when the ordinary consumer sees Costco, they're like, oh, I love Costco.

但听过《Acquired》关于Costco那期节目的人想到Costco时，他们能看到整个商业机器运转的齿轮。

But when someone who's listened to an the acquired episode on Costco thinks about Costco, they see like all the gears turning of the machine.

就像我们必须找到某种方式来揭示某些东西。

Like we there there has to be some way that we can expose something.

然后我们的第三个标准是它必须对世界有重要意义。

And then our third criteria is it has to be important in the world.

我认为这是我们后来才意识到的。

And I think that's something we picked up later.

我是说，我们以前做过那些1000万美元的小规模收购。

I mean, we used to do these like little $10,000,000 acquisitions.

而现在当我们准备花两个月时间研究并制作《Acquired》节目时，它必须配得上这个舞台。

And now when we're gonna go spend two months of our life researching and making that like the acquired episode, it has to be something worthy of the acquired stage.

这是什么时候发生的？

When did that happen?

所以我有点不太清楚。

So I'm a little unclear.

再回到你们做的第一期节目和现在的状态之间的差异，是什么促使或推动你们形成了现在的《Acquired》模式？

Again, getting back to this first episode you did and where you are now and the difference between them, What sort of compelled you or propelled you into the current form of Acquired?

决定将其商业化，并真正靠播客收入生活，所以它必须在商业上可行。

The decision to make it a business, and the decision to actually live off of what earned from your podcast, So it had to work commercially.

于是你们开始做出这些调整。

So then you started to make these adjustments.

是这样运作的吗？

Is that how it works?

既是也不是。

Yes and no.

你的思路是对的。

There's you're on the right track.

我喜欢伯克希尔。

I like the Berkshire.

我以为你会说从中学到的合伙经验。

I thought you were gonna say partnership as a lesson from it.

我们做过一个关于红杉资本这家风投公司的系列节目。

So we did a series on Sequoia Capital, the venture firm.

是的。

Yep.

我在2020年全职投入《Acquired》节目。

I went full time on Acquired in 2020.

五年后。

Five years in.

本直到1月24日才全职加入，对吧？

Ben didn't go full time until January 24, right?

没错。

Correct.

23年、24年。

'23, '24.

当我全职时，你们还是平等合伙人吗？

When I went You remained equal partners?

是的

Yes.

哦，我们刚开始时这根本不算是个生意

Oh, it wasn't a business when we started.

就像个笑话一样，直到第三年才开始赚钱

It was just like mean, didn't make money till our third year.

但那三年里你全职我兼职，我们依然是平等的

But those three years while you're full time and you're part time, it was an equal.

平等

Equal.

是的

Yes.

大卫从未提出过这个问题

David never once raised the issue.

我靠这个谋生，这是我唯一的事业，所以我应该拥有更多股份或更大份额——这种话他一次都没提过

I'm depending on this for my livelihood, and it's my only thing, so I should own more or get a greater share that never once came up.

这很棒。

That's great.

我完全没想过这个问题。

It never crossed my mind.

就是这样。

There we go.

这是个重要观点。

That's an important point.

我想我忽略了这点，因为现在甚至都没想过这个问题。

I guess I'm glossing over it because it wouldn't even like it didn't even cross my mind now.

一直都是我们两个人。

Always been Like, the two of us.

平等。

Equal.

要是变成其他情况就太亵渎了。

It would be profane for it to be anything

如果真的开始试图划分，比如小块利益或份额分配，想着'我做了这个就该得到那个'，那实际上会破坏这种关系

It would actually break it if ever started trying to figure out, like, little carve outs or pieces of the pie for, well, did this, therefore I should get

这才是真正的协作

It's true collaboration.

根本分不清哪里是你开始而你结束的界限

Don't recognize there's no boundary to where you start and you

好的

Okay.

这就是我要讲的故事走向

This is where I'm going with the story.

你提到红杉资本很有趣，因为实际上基准资本在这方面也是如此

It's funny you bring up Sequoia because it's actually benchmark y in that way.

嗯，这是引用的话

Well, it's the quote.

这是莱奥尼的引述

It's Leoni's quote.

好的。

Okay.

所以22年，FTX事件发生了。

So '22, FTX happens.

利率上升了。

Interest rates go up.

整个播客广告市场，你知道的，一落千丈。

If you'd all podcast advertising market, you know, falls off a cliff.

我们的收入下降了40%。

Our revenue dropped 40%.

所以我们从这根本不算一个生意开始。

So we went from this wasn't a business.

我全职投入，我们把它做成了生意，效果出奇地好。

I went full time, we made it a business, it worked amazingly well.

从20年到22年

From '20 to '22

到2020年。

to 2020.

从20年到21年再到22年。

From '20 to '21 into '22.

对。

Right.

然后我们的收入下降了40%，那正是我们全面改革的转折点。

And then our revenue dropped 40% And that was the moment when we changed everything.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

2021年你们制作了多少期节目？

How many episodes are you making in 2021?

很多。

A lot.

哦，我明白了。

Oh, I see.

好的。

Okay.

那么是不是不再仅限于企业收购了？

And is it but it's not no longer just corporate acquisitions?

我们从2019年特斯拉那期节目开始拓展内容范围，

We started broadening with the Tesla episode in, like, 2019,

也许吧，那你们为什么要拓展呢？

maybe And why did you broaden?

这是David的主意，他说他有个观点认为观众听我们节目并不是因为他们想知道某次科技收购是否成功。

It was David's idea, and he said, I have this thesis that the audience doesn't listen to us because they want to hear if a tech acquisition worked or not.

他们想了解最重要科技公司的故事和战略。

They want to hear the story and strategy of the most important technology companies.

这就对了。

There you go.

所以收到了所有这些反馈。

So had all these feedback.

某种程度上算是用不正当手段吸引了观众。

Kind of foul hooked your audience.

是的。

Yes.

他们确实在听

They were listening

什么是'不正当上钩'？

What's a foul hook?

就像钓鱼时，鱼钩钩住了鱼的肚子而不是嘴巴。

When you go fishing and the fish you catch the fish by the belly rather than the mouth.

就像是鱼钩以某种奇怪的方式钩住了鱼。

It's like the hook gets in some weird way.

没错。

Yes.

你实际上并没有以正当方式钓到鱼。

You didn't actually catch the fish in the an honest way.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

但每次我们见面时，还是会收到大量邮件，人们都在谈论这个节目。

But yet, we we get all these, you know, emails every time we meet people and they talk about the show.

他们会说'太喜欢这个故事了'。

They're like, love the story.

就像'你们真是天赋异禀的讲故事高手'。

Like, you guys are just gifted storytellers.

这是我们一遍又一遍听到的评价。

That's what we hear over and over and over again.

到后来我们觉得，也许真该相信这些评价。

And, like, eventually, we're like, well, we should believe that.

所以在那一刻，我要插一句我注意到的事。

So at that moment, I'm going to interject what I noticed.

因为在第一集里，你们对自己非常不确定，你们都很紧张，而且你们俩都有戏剧背景。

Because in that first episode, you were so unsure of yourselves You were so choked, both And of you have a background in theater.

还是个孩子。

Were a kid.

我们

We

不得不这样。

had to.

是啊。

Yeah.

你们看起来不像是上过舞台的人。

You did not come across as people who had been on stage.

那是一种毫无效果的表演。

It was kind of an effectless performance.

整体表现显得平淡无奇。

There's a flatness to it.

你们当时——无论是否意识到——都在刻意压抑情绪表达。

Were afraid to whether you knew it or not exhibit a lot of emotion.

你们没意识到情感正是你们的秘密武器之一。

You didn't realize that one of your secret sauces is emotion.

当你们呈现内容时，彼此间的互动反应其实在引导观众理解应有的情感共鸣。

It's the way you respond to each other when you're presenting material is helping the audience understand how they should feel about it.

虽然你们陈述的可能是非常枯燥的事实，比如连续一百年收入逐年翻番这种数据。

That you're giving them sometimes very dry facts, like, I don't know, their revenues doubled every year for one hundred years straight.

而观众可能并不清楚这意味着——

And the audience may not know that that's

他们重新整合出的另一个亮点。

something Something else that's they've reacquired up with.

这确实是惊人的成就。

That's an incredible thing.

对。

Right.

而你们的反应方式甚至能帮助到经验丰富的听众。

And the way you respond even sophisticated listeners are helped.

哦，现在要注意了。

Oh, pay attention now.

那是很重要的一点。

That's an important thing.

我应该为此感到兴奋。

I should get excited about that.

我们过去分享研究的方式就像早期做研究那样。

We used to share our research such that we were doing research in the early days.

哦，

Oh,

是啊。

yeah.

我想我们当时只有一个谷歌文档，我们...对，没有

I think we only had a single Google Doc that we Yeah, weren't

就是把所有东西都往同一个共享文档里塞。

were just dumping everything into the same shared document.

我们当时就是这么做的。

And we were on this.

所以等到真正要录制节目的时候，内容都已经不新鲜了。

So by the time we would actually go to record the episode There's no it would stale.

是啊，完全没有惊喜可言。

Yeah, there's no surprise.

也没有任何分歧。

There's no disagreement.

所以没法假装惊讶。

So can't pretend to be surprised.

我们没法假装

We can't pretend to

否则你就是在假装惊讶。

be Or you would be pretending to be surprised.

我们俩都不是好演员。

Neither of us are good actors.

我不记得我们什么时候...我们稍微...所以后来

I don't when did we We did a little So then

这非常重要。

this is really important.

所以你增加了一个即兴发挥的环节。

So you added an improvisational component.

是的。

Yes.

换种说法就是。

There's another way of putting that.

你增加了风险。

You're added risk.

当你上台时不知道会发生什么，你就是在冒险。

You're taking risks when you don't know what's going to happen when you come on.

100%同意。

100% agree.

现在每次进入录制日都感觉像走钢丝，因为我们没有完整的剧本。

Every episode now going into recording day feels like a high wire act because we haven't fully scripted it out.

我就觉得，这次应该能顺利完成的。

I'm like, I think this is gonna come together.

但大约六个月前，我们不得不增加了一个叫制作会议的东西。

But, like, we had to add this thing called a production meeting about six months ago.

在录制前一周，我们必须聚在一起商定节目结构，但不分享任何细节。

One week before recording, we are required to get together and share agree on an episode structure, but not share any details.

因为我们太沉迷于即兴发挥，导致有些节目结束时你会觉得毫无连贯性。

Because we got so into this like improvisation thing that some of our episodes would sort of end and you're like, that had no flow to it.

就像你们完全持两种不同的想法。

Like you guys had two completely different ideas.