570- 适合多动症大脑的最佳职业：如何锁定你的理想工作环境

欢迎收听由《Attitude》杂志推出的注意力缺陷障碍专家播客系列。

Welcome to the Attention Deficit Disorder Expert Podcast Series by Attitude Magazine.

大家好，我是Carol Fleck，代表ATTITUDE团队，很高兴欢迎大家参加今天题为《如何定位理想工作环境的最佳职业》的ADHD专家讲座。今天的主讲人是Kathleen Nadeau博士和Bruce Hughes。

Hi, everyone. I'm Carol Fleck, and on behalf of the ATTITUDE team, I'm delighted to welcome you to today's ADHD experts presentation titled Best Jobs for How to Pinpoint Your Ideal Work Environment. Leading today's presentation is Doctor. Kathleen Nadeau and Bruce Hughes. Doctor.

Nadeau博士是切萨皮克中心学习与行为健康的创始人和主任。她是首批撰写关于职场ADHD书籍的作者之一，书名为《职场中的ADHD》。她还著有《发挥优势、应对挑战的ADHD指南》。在切萨皮克中心，Nadeau博士开发了专门的职业服务，提供以ADHD为重点的职业评估、咨询，服务对象包括高中生、大学生以及面临职业中期转型的成年人。

Nadeau is the founder and director of the Chesapeake Center, Learning and Behavioral Health. She's the author of one of the first books written about ADHD on the job titled ADHD in the Workplace. She also wrote the ADHD Guide to Harness Your Strengths, Manage Your Challenges. At the Chesapeake Center, Doctor. Nadeau developed specialized career services offering ADHD focused career assessment, counseling and It serves high school and college students, as well as adults navigating mid career transitions.

Bruce Hughes是切萨皮克中心的职业教练。他与Nadeau博士密切合作，帮助患有ADHD的成年人应对职业转型、执行功能挑战和职业认同问题。最后，本次网络研讨会的赞助商是Inflow。是否在寻找适合ADHD大脑的工作？

Bruce Hughes is a career coach at the Chesapeake Center. He works closely with Doctor. Nadeau in helping adults with ADHD navigate career transitions, executive function challenges, and professional identity. Finally, the sponsor of this webinar is Inflow. Struggling to find work that fits your ADHD brain?

Inflow的科学支持计划可以帮助您识别独特优势、应对职场挑战并建立职业信心。由领先的ADHD专家开发，其经过验证的策略帮助您理解自己的神经多样性思维模式，并建立真正有效的生产力心态。点击链接参加免费自我评估开始吧。《Attitude》感谢赞助商对我们网络研讨会的支持。赞助不影响演讲者选择或研讨会内容。

Inflow's science backed program can help you identify your unique strengths, manage workplace challenges, and build career confidence. Developed by leading ADHD experts, their proven strategies help you understand your neurodivergent thinking style and build a productivity mindset that actually sticks. Click on the link to take the free self assessment to get started. Attitude thanks our sponsors for supporting our webinars. Sponsorship has no influence on speaker selection or webinar content.

那么，事不宜迟，我非常高兴地欢迎Kathleen Nadeau博士和Bruce Hughes。Nadeau博士，现在交给您了。

So without further ado, I'm so pleased to welcome Doctor. Kathleen Nadeau at Bruce Hughes. Doctor. Nadeau, I'll turn this over to you now.

非常感谢Carol。这是一张非常简洁的幻灯片。我没有任何需要披露的内容，也没有利益冲突。非常高兴大家能来到这里。

Thank you so much Carol. So this is a very quick slide. I have no disclosures. I have no conflicts of interest. So I am delighted that all of you are here.

首先我想说，很久以前我就意识到，如果我们不关注成年人整天在做什么，就无法真正有效地帮助ADHD患者。工作，就是你整天在做的事。当我们帮助孩子时，自然会关注他们在学校的表现和老师的情况。对成年人也需要同样的关注。

And let me just start by saying that a long time ago, I realized that we couldn't really help adults with ADHD very effectively if we didn't pay attention to what you do all day. Work, it's what you do all day. And when we're working with kids, of course, we pay attention to what kids do in school. We pay attention to their teachers. The same thing needs to be true for adults.

我们需要关注他们的上司和任务分配，这相当于我们为学龄儿童所做的。那么，我们所说的这个鸿沟在哪里？没有人真正受过培训来帮助你们。ADHD专家完全没有职业咨询或评估的背景，而职业专业人士对ADHD也一无所知。

We need to pay attention to their bosses, to their assignments. So, it's the equivalent of what we do for school children. So, where is this chasm we're talking about? Nobody's really trained to help you. People that are ADHD experts have zero training in career counseling or career assessment and career professionals have no training in ADHD.

因此，Bruce Hughes和我正努力弥合这个巨大的鸿沟，很高兴能在此与大家交流，有很多内容要探讨。关于弥合差距——Bruce拥有深厚的商业背景，稍后他会分享。我们从不同视角切入这个问题，我是一名心理学家。

So Bruce Hughes and I are really trying to bridge that chasm and it's a big one and we're delighted to be here and there's lots to talk about. So bridging the gap. We're trying to come to this and Bruce has a very strong business background which he'll tell you a little bit about. So we're coming at it from different perspectives. I'm a psychologist.

他在职业问题方面有着多元化的背景，我们今天聚在一起，试图帮助大家解决困惑。好吧，我该怎么做？如何在工作中游刃有余？今天我们的交流时间非常有限，我们知道你们有很多疑问。

He's got a diverse background in career issues and we're coming together to try to help you figure out. Okay, what do I do? How do I make it work at work? And we've got a very short time to talk to you about this today. So, we know you've got a lot of questions.

我们会快速过一遍幻灯片，然后回答你们的问题。常有人问我：'ADHD患者适合什么工作？'这个问题没有标准答案。因为择业需要考虑诸多因素，而不仅仅是ADHD。你并不等同于你的ADHD症状。

We're going to get through our slides and get to answering your questions. So, people come to me and say, so what's a good job for somebody with ADHD? And there isn't an answer to that. And the reason there's no answer to that is that your job has to take lots of things into account, not just your ADHD. You are not your ADHD.

这是我想传达的首要信息：你们是复杂的个体，有热衷的事物，也有觉得乏味至极的事情。有人外向，有人内向。所以我们需要全面考量。

That's the first message I want to communicate to you. You are a complex human being with things you're interested in things that bore you to death. Some of you are extroverts. Some are introverts. So we need to cover the waterfront.

相比之下，回答'ADHD不适合什么工作'要容易得多。枯燥乏味的工作就是糟糕的选择。为什么呢？

It's a lot easier to sort of answer the question. What's a bad job for ADHD? That's a lot easier to answer. And so a bad job is something that is boring or uninteresting to you. Why?

因为我本人就是ADHD患者——在此完全坦诚。我们的大脑受兴趣驱动，越感兴趣的工作就越可能适合你。需要快速产出细节的工作？我可是有博士学位的人。

Because I have ADHD myself. Full disclosure. We have interest driven brains and so the more you're doing something you're actually interested in the more likely it's going to be a good job for you. Detail oriented with rapid production. I have a PhD.

某种程度上这说明我应该算聪明吧？但说实话，我在线填表格时总是出错，幸亏系统会标红提示'这里漏了，那里没填'。

So in some ways that means I guess I must be fairly smart. But I'll tell you what I have trouble filling out forms online. I'm so glad it starts popping up red. You missed this. You missed this.

需要返回修改——这种结构化帮助对我至关重要。因此注重细节的工作通常不适合我们。在混乱的环境中我们也难以发挥：无论是上司还是整个组织缺乏条理，都会让我们举步维艰。

Go back. I need that help in that structure. So, detail oriented jobs are usually not great for our brains. We don't do well in a place that is disorganized. If our supervisor is disorganized, if our organization is disorganized, then we're going to have a hard time functioning there.

如今企业并购频繁，管理层不断更迭，这种动荡环境对ADHD患者极具挑战。我们需要管理完善的工作环境。若缺乏问责机制或架构，没人监督你的进度，你就会像迷失在太空。而真正的致命伤是长期独立进行的项目。

And I find that there's so much transition of companies buying other companies and all the management changes. That's going to be a pretty chaotic environment for you to function in. If you have ADHD, you need a well managed place. If you have little accountability or structure, if you're not accountable to somebody, if they don't know how you're doing, you're going to kind of get lost in space. And the real killer is doing long term projects that you're doing in isolation.

现在很多人居家办公——这点我们稍后会详谈。这对部分ADHD人群有益，但对需要更多互动和问责的群体则很不利。接下来我要分享多年来处理过的典型问题，首先想到的是这个...

And so many of us are working from home. We'll talk a little bit more about that. Working from home is good for some ADHD people, but really bad for others of us that need more interaction and accountability. So, I'm going to talk about some classic problems that we've dealt with many many different people over the years. And this is the first one that comes to mind.

我接触过无数聪慧的ADHD人士，相信在座各位也各有所长。但ADHD患者通常不擅长管理他人。作为见证过各行各业案例的从业者，我深知这个现象。

I've worked with so many bright people and there are so many highly intelligent people out there with ADHD. I'm sure that many of you are very good at doing all sorts of things. But what people with ADHD are typically not very good at is managing other people. And what happens? I've worked with so many people in all areas of work.

但让我想起一个人，他是个计算机科学家，曾是个明星人物。他们提拔他管理团队后，一切就乱套了，因为他突然无法专注于自己的工作，而是要追踪其他人的工作进度。尽管这不是个受欢迎的建议，我也听人说过不要接受晋升。

But one fellow that comes to mind is a computer scientist. He was a rock star. They promoted him to supervise his team and everything fell apart because all of a sudden he couldn't focus on his work. He had to track everyone else's work. And even though it's not a welcome message and I've had people say what don't take a promotion.

我需要钱，我需要那次晋升。但你必须清楚自己将面临什么——如果你要负责一个团队，就需要从别处获得更多支持。我还见过许多人陷入另一个陷阱：我想自己当老板，这样就能自由安排工作时间。

I need the money. I need that promotion. You really need to know what you're heading into and that you're going to need a lot more support from somewhere else if you're in charge of a group of people. Here's another trap that I've seen so many people get stuck in and that is I want to be my own boss. Then I can set my hours.

我可以按自己的意愿安排一切。听起来很理想，不是吗？但我见过真正聪明的人因此彻底迷失方向。也许他们有个绝妙的主意：我要开发个应用。

I can set up everything the way I want it. Sounds ideal, doesn't it? Except I've seen really brilliant people get completely lost. Maybe they have a brilliant idea. I'm going to create an app.

我要创立在线业务，我要创造些什么。但他们最终迷失了，因为没有结构体系，没有截止期限，也没有人可以头脑风暴。

I'm going to create a business online. I'm going to create something. But they get lost because there's no structure. There are no deadlines. There's nobody to brainstorm with.

所以，在没有外部结构化支持的情况下，独自在地下室当自己的老板通常不是个好主意。总的来说，我认为新冠疫情以来，许多ADHD患者确实难以正常运作。可悲的是，在家工作有其真实诱惑——不用再忍受可怕的通勤，看起来时间也充裕多了。

And so, it's generally rarely a good idea to decide to go be your own boss in your basement with no structure support from the outside. And just in general, I think it's been really hard for many, many people with ADHD to function since COVID. And sadly, you know, there's a real allure working from home. You don't have that dreadful commute anymore. Looks like you'll have a lot more time.

然而我遇到的ADHD患者中，极少有人能在居家办公时保持专注和高效，至少无法长期如此。因此，环境能决定你的成败。我们的感官敏感度各不相同——有些人能在嘈杂环境中工作，我就是其中之一。

And yet I've met darn few people with ADHD that can stay focused and productive on the job if they're working from home, at least all of the time. So, your environment can make or break how well you do. And we don't all have the same sensory sensitivities. I mean some people can work in a noisy environment. I'm one of those people.

我可以在火车站中央写书，这可能因为我是四个吵闹孩子中的老二，大脑早就学会了屏蔽混乱。但多数ADHD患者并非如此，他们需要降噪耳机，无法在有人不停交谈的办公室工作。还有干扰问题——

I can sit down and write a book in the middle of a train station and that's probably because I was the middle child with four noisy children. I mean my brain learned to tune out the chaos a long time ago. But many people with ADHD are not like that and they need to put on noise cancellation headphones. They can't work in an office if somebody's always talking next to them. Interruptions.

干扰。我们甚至会自我打断，这就是ADHD大脑的运作方式。我们会被内心分散注意力的想法打断，我对此深有体会。

Interruptions. I mean we interrupt ourselves. I mean that's what our ADHD brains do. We interrupt ourselves with distracting internal thoughts. I'm a master at doing that.

如果还有外界干扰，我们要重新专注工作就得花更长时间。缺乏自然光可能听起来奇怪，但日光对大脑有益。研究表明，要平静大脑、提升专注力，我们需要接触自然光并置身户外。

But if we also have interruptions coming from the outside, it takes us so long to get refocused on the job. No natural light. That may sound like an odd one but daylight is good for our brains. I mean a lot of research shows that if we want to calm our brains down, if we want to focus better that we need to expose ourselves to natural light and we need to expose ourselves to being outside in it. And lack of privacy.

如果没有能真正专注、屏蔽周遭干扰的工作空间...因此这是关键平衡点，没有适合所有人的完美环境。你必须清楚自己在什么状态下感觉和表现最佳。作为外向者，有人在周围时我的状态最好。

If you don't have workspace where you can really focus and turn off everything that's going on around you. So, it's a really critical balance and there's no single best environment for each and every one of you. You really need to be aware of how do I feel and function best. I'm an extrovert. I feel and function best when there are people around me.

你是个内向的人。如果能安静专注，你会感觉最佳、表现最好。这并非意味着你不喜欢人群，只是你更喜欢小范围的社交。所以，我听说很多人将ADHD视为一种诅咒。

You're an introvert. You're going to feel and function best if you could quietly focus. Doesn't mean you don't like people, but you like people in smaller doses. So. There's a lot of people I hear are looking at ADHD as a curse.

事实上，有本书叫《ADHD的礼物》，有人开玩笑说如果是礼物能退货吗？我觉得这说法很有趣。但话说回来，如果你真正理解大脑运作方式，ADHD其实是种天赋。我的大脑就像创意工厂，我需要与能帮我落实这些想法的人共事。

In fact, there was a book written called The Gift of ADHD and somebody joked if it's a gift can I return it? I think that's a great line. But that being said, I think if you really understand how your brain works that ADHD is a gift. I mean my brain is an idea factory. And I need to be around people that can help me implement those ideas.

否则创意永远只是空想。单靠我自己——我写过很多书，但与人合著时作品质量更高。为什么？因为这种来回协作给了我结构和责任感。

Otherwise, it's not going to happen. Just me, myself and I. I've learned that I've written a lot of books and my books go better when I'm co authoring them. Why? It gives me that structure and accountability going back and forth.

所以需要弄清楚：什么环境最适合你？你需要多少刺激？需要哪种刺激？你们可能认识詹姆斯·卡维尔，他是我见过最亢奋的人之一，作为全国知名政治顾问——

So, need to figure out, what are the right conditions for you? How much stimulation do you need? And what kind of stimulation do you need? Some of you may know James Carville who's one of the most hyperactive human beings I've ever encountered in my life. He has been a nationally known political consultant.

他语速飞快，痴迷于瞬息万变的政选活动，这种高强度刺激让他如鱼得水。换作别人可能早就崩溃了。你需要何种刺激？需要多少？需要谁提供怎样的支持？

He talks 90 miles an hour. He loves to be involved in political races where it's you know something happening every second that stimulates his brain and he's brilliant in that kind of environment. Others of us would be completely overwhelmed. What kind of stimulation do you need and how much of it do you need? What kind of support do you need and from whom?

我认识许多创业成功的ADHD男性，因为他们有位担任业务经理的妻子——处理账单、收款、记账、接电话、安排日程。这样充满创造力又精力过剩的ADHD丈夫就能专注发挥所长。有个搞笑例子：某位爆破专家，这工作对ADHD患者是不是很合适？

I've known a lot of men with ADHD that had their own business that was successful because they had a wife who was their business manager. They had a wife who was paying the bills, collecting the money, keeping the books, answering the phone, creating the schedule for you and then the highly energetic creative guy with ADHD could go out and do his thing without all the details. I knew one guy hilariously. He was a demolition expert. Does that sound like a good job for somebody with ADHD?

他热爱这份工作，擅长让建筑物定向坍塌而不波及街道。作为爆破专家，他的生活却极有规律。你需要多少结构化安排？

He loved it. He was one of those guys that knew how to make buildings implode on themselves so that they wouldn't go all over the street and damage cars and other people. He was a demolition expert and he had a very organized life. He had a well structured life. How much structure do you need?

你更适合单打独斗还是团队协作？关键要认清自己的优势与兴趣。工作不仅是谋生手段——它占据了你大部分清醒时间。

Do you work better alone or on a team? And really understanding what your strengths and interests are. So, it's not just about the job. The job is a hugely important part of what you do. It's what you do all day.

但我们需要统筹生活的各个方面，让它们协同作用助你高效工作。现在我要请出优秀的同事布鲁斯·休斯。我们密切合作，他擅长职业评估，帮你找到性格、兴趣、优势与挑战的最佳契合点。

But we need to think about All aspects of your life and how they work together to get you to work and to get you to function well at work. I am going to turn things over to my wonderful colleague Bruce Hughes. Bruce and I work very closely together. He does wonderful career assessments helping you figure out where your sweet spot is in terms of a good match for your personality, interests, your strengths, your challenges. He's going to talk more about that.

他还提供职业教练服务——当获取所有信息后，如何具体实施？接下来我很高兴把时间交给布鲁斯·休斯。

And then he also works with people in career coaching. Okay, I've got all this information. How do I implement it? So I am happily going to turn the next part over to my colleague Bruce Hughes.

谢谢您，Nadeau医生。接着您刚才的话题，我发现很多来做职业评估或职业咨询的人，往往在不经意间陷入一种境地：他们开始意识到，前方那个职位——我不确定自己是否想要它，而眼下这个职位我也并不满意。由于生活节奏太快，我们常常忘记放慢脚步，花时间思考：让我真正探索一下，我是如何走到这一步的？

Thank you Doctor. Nadeau. To pick up where you left off I find that a lot of the folks who come in for career assessments or career coaching sort of without realizing it, ended up in a place where they start to realize, well, the position that's ahead of me, like, don't know that I want that. And I don't very much like the position that I'm in right now. And because our lives move so fast, we can often forget to slow down and take time and think about, let me actually explore, like, how did I end up here?

让我对未来目标更主动、更审慎地规划。对某些人而言，工作只是谋生手段。我最好的朋友总说：‘他们每两周给你发工资吗？’我说‘是啊’，他就说‘那听起来就是份好工作’。

And let me be more intentional or deliberate about where I want to go in the future. For some folks, a job is just a job. One of my best friends will always say, Are they paying you every two weeks? And it's like, Yeah. It's like, Well, that sounds like a good job to me.

但对神经多样性人群而言，工作满意度与整个人生深度交织。它影响我们的精力、幸福感，以及作为社会生产成员的自我认同。因此我们设计的职业评估——由Null医生首创并持续完善的这套体系——让你有机会全面审视过去经历、当前状况，以及真正的核心问题所在。

But for neurodiverse folks, our job satisfaction is so deeply intertwined with our whole life. It impacts our energy, our well-being and our kind of ability to feel like a productive member of society. So the career assessment that we've designed have Doctor. Null has designed and that we've continuing to refine gives you a chance to do this sort of expansive comprehensive review of what's happened in the past and what's happening right now. What's the real presenting issue?

我们如何为你规划更成功的未来？这始于初始咨询。在本次网络研讨会中，我会分享如何自行开展类似评估。这套职业评估可能类似神经心理测评，但目标不是诊断，而是为你提供具体、低阻力的职业发展建议，让工作更契合你的优势。

And like how do we prepare you for a more successful future? This begins with an intake. And throughout this portion of the webinar, I'll give you some ideas on how you can maybe recreate this yourself. The career assessment, it kind of might feel like a neuropsych evaluation, except the goal is not to diagnose. It is to help you get some concrete, low friction recommendations and next steps for a career that's more aligned to your strengths.

在初始咨询中，这往往是客户首次认真思考：我可能毕业后就得到这份工作，或是朋友推荐入职。十五二十年后蓦然回首，才发现这并非心之所向，却又不知该去何方。正如Nadeau医生提到的案例：有位客户获得晋升后，经过多年努力才意识到，职业天花板近在咫尺——我根本不想做上司的工作。

And in the intake session, this is sometimes the first time that clients really take time to think about, I maybe got this job after school or I had a friend recommend that I work somewhere. And it's fifteen, twenty years later, I look up and I realize, this isn't exactly where I want to be, but I don't know where I want to go. I'm thinking of a client who this happened to, as Doctor. Nadeau just mentioned, got a promotion and realized after all of these years of hard work, the ceiling feels like it's right above me. I don't want to do my boss's job.

那份工作看起来太复杂，而现有岗位甚至不允许我做真正热爱的事。通过初始咨询流程，我们帮助这位客户放慢节奏，更清晰地明确最适合他的方向。若你尚未准备好接受教练辅导或正式评估，我建议尝试将部分规划分析外化——好工作的构成要素非常多元。

That looks too complicated. And the job that I have now doesn't even allow me to do the things that I really enjoy doing. So the intake process for this client allowed us to slow down and become a little bit more clear on what would be best specifically for him. In the event that you maybe don't have or aren't ready to meet with a coach or do an assessment, something that I like to do in these cases is still try to externalize some of the planning or analysis. There's so many things that go into making a good job.

不仅关乎你的专长，还包括你的核心价值、人生/家庭目标，以及能激发你热情的事物。有人面对面提问引导时会更容易完成，但若没有这个条件，不妨借助ChatGPT或Google Gemini。比如设计这样的提示：‘我是患有多动症的专业人士，正在做职业规划，需要识别最重要的价值观和兴趣。能否提供些结构化写作或反思提示，让我以10分钟为单元完成？’

It's not just about what you're good at, but it also looks at what's really important to you, what your goals are for your life or for your family, and like what you're interested in and what energizes you. It's a lot easier to do that when you have someone kind of across the table or the desk asking you these questions and prompting. But if you don't have that yet, I feel like this might be a great example of a time to bring in ChatGPT or Google Gemini. I feel like I might design a prompt something like, you know, I'm a professional with ADHD trying to do some career planning and I'm trying to identify values and interests that are most important to me. Can you give me some structured writing or reflection prompts that I can do in ten minute bursts?

这样就能让他人承担初始的思考工作，你只需回应会比独自完成整个过程轻松得多。评估第二阶段聚焦兴趣。你或许疑惑‘兴趣有什么用？’但常见的情况是：我们困在既定路径上，从未认真探索所有可能性。随着年岁增长，那些曾让我们年少时热血沸腾的事物逐渐远去，某些内在需求正得不到满足。

So that way you can have someone else do a lot of that initial thinking and it can be easier to respond than it is to kind of do all of this yourself. The next phase in our career assessment looks at your interest. And you might think, oh, kind of what good does the interest do me? But sometimes or what I see very often is we get stuck on a path and we don't really take the time to explore all of the options that were available to us. And sometimes as we grow older and get farther away from the things that really lit us up maybe when we were younger, we realize that there are interests, really parts of us that are like not being fed or satisfied.

我们使用的工具之一是‘斯特朗兴趣量表’。关键不在于根据你理想中的自我，或父母配偶的期望来答题，而是纯粹判断：‘这个主题让我感兴趣吗？’它基于更宏观的职业发展模型。若无法使用该量表，可尝试‘O*NET兴趣分析器’。

And so one of the tools that we use is the strong interest inventory. And the goal here is not to answer these assessment questions in terms of like the person that you think you want to be or the person that maybe your parents or your spouse wants to be. It is purely, is this topic or subject matter interesting to me? It's based on a larger career development model. And if you don't want to use the strong interest inventory or have access to it, there is something called the O*NET Interest Profiler.

这套工具基于相同理论体系，评估你是否喜欢动手操作？需要可见成果？还是更倾向探索研究型工作？你是否总想解答各种问题？或者热衷于整理组织事物使其井然有序？

It's based on the same career development theory where it looks at are you someone who likes to work with your hands? Do you need to see tangible results? Do you or are you somebody who is more curious or investigative? Do you have a lot of questions that you want to answer? Are you someone who enjoys putting things together and making things giving them in order?

你是喜欢与人交往的类型吗？还是更倾向于通过创意表达自我？又或是更具企业家精神，渴望影响他人甚至经营生意？这是评估的一个组成部分。重申一下，若对此感兴趣，O*NET在线平台上的兴趣分析器提供免费版本，能为你解析在这六大类别中的归属，并推荐适合你的职位。

Are you someone who enjoys connecting with other people? Or are you someone who finds that you need to express yourself creatively? Or are you more enterprising and that you want to influence other folks and maybe run a business? This is one component of the assessment And again, if you are interested in this, a free version of this is available at O*NET Online, the interest profiler, and it'll give you a breakdown of where you fall into these six categories. And then we'll also recommend positions that might be good for you.

一个小建议：除了职业定位，这也可用于探索兴趣爱好。许多像我们这样事业心强的人（包括我自己）常意识到：'我工作很多，但未必快乐'。于是想起'原来我喜欢触觉体验且有音乐天赋'，弹钢琴这样的活动就该融入生活。《设计你的生活》一书中，作者提到人们常抱怨'工作上遇到问题'。

One tip here is that in addition to identifying career roles, this could also be good for exploring hobbies. I know for a lot of us who are very career focused, myself included, I realize that like, wow, I'm not I'm working a lot, but I'm not necessarily having any fun. And so remembering that, oh, I like things that are tactile and I have a gift with music. Playing piano is something that needs to be folded into my life. Then the book Designing Your Life, the author's talking about how folks will come in and say, Oh, you know, I have this problem at work.

他们总说'可能需要换工作'。但等等——也许你真正需要的是在工作之外培养些爱好、乐趣和结构，让生活更愉悦，从而获得更多专注工作的空间。回到评估第二部分：人格分析。在'强烈兴趣量表'中，我认为这像是审视你的热情或倾向。

I probably need a new job. And it's like, well, hang on. No, even though that you need a new job, you might just need to add some hobbies and fun and structure outside of your job that make your life more enjoyable, that give you more space to focus on things at work. Back to here, for the second part of the assessment, we look at your personality. For the strong interest inventory, I say that's like looking at your passions or your proclivities maybe.

接下来我们分析人格。常用的是迈尔斯-布里格斯类型指标（MBTI），若想尝试不同风格，也可参考'大五人格因素测评'。克里夫顿优势（原称优势识别器）对我影响深远——

The next is we look at your personality. So the Myers Briggs is a common one we use. And for some folks who maybe want to see maybe a different flavor, you could look at the big five personality factor assessment. CliftonStrengths used to be called StrengthFinders. That was a big one for me.

它让我理解：某些特质在某些环境是优势，在另些环境却是短板。最近我还发现帕特里克·伦乔尼的《工作天才六型》适合专业人士。重点不在于给自己贴标签（如'我是INTJ'或'我尽责性低'），而是帮你更生动地描绘整体特质画像。务实型人群常会忽视这点。

It was pivotal in helping me understand that certain strengths that I had or tendencies I had are strengths in some environments and weaknesses in others. There's another one for the professionals out there that I've seen recently, The Six Types of Working Genius from Patrick Lencioni. The goal here is to not necessarily take what the assessment says and say, Well, I am an INTJ or I am low in conscientiousness or whatever. This is to help you paint a more vivid picture of your overall profile. I find this is sometimes overlooked by folks who tend to be more tangible or realistic.

我曾有位客户倾向成为暖通技工，却未意识到自己拥有深邃情感世界与复杂人格。人格评估帮他思考：'我确实喜欢动手，但具体想为谁做？为何重要？'这层分析超越了兴趣范畴，揭示出'基于人格特质，哪些事能带来真正快乐，让工作或人生充满意义'。最后环节我们考察潜能与先天能力，采用的海兰能力测评像趣味智商测试——

I had a client who was veering toward the path of like HVAC technician and never considered that he had a deep, rich, emotional world and complex personality that shaped like, yeah, I like to do things with my hands, but what specifically do I want to do and for who do I want to do it for? And why is this important for me to do? The personality assessment helps to add that other layer of not just this is what I'm interested in, but based on my personality, these are the things that really bring me joy and help this work or my life in general feel meaningful. The final element is the something that looks at our, I like to say, like our potential, also looks at our natural abilities. The assessment we use is the Hyland's Ability Battery, which feels like sort of a fun IQ test.

它极具挑战性，专为测试能力极限设计，评估空间推理、音调记忆、视觉敏锐度等。测试时你可能不解：'这如何体现我辨图能力？'但这类测评的妙处在于：它能揭示我们习以为常的卓越才能。目前尚无其他测评具备同等的信效度。

It's challenging and it's definitely designed to test the outermost limits of your ability. But it looks at things like spatial reasoning or tonal memory or visual proficiency. And as you're taking the assessment, you might not immediately get like, how does this translate into how good I am at remembering the differences between pictures? But the beautiful part about this assessment, and I think a lot of these assessments in general, is that it points out the things that we are really good at that sometimes we shrug off. There's not an alternative of an assessment that's as reliable and valid.

虽然海兰测评独树一帜，但自行探索时，建议关注他人常夸赞而你总说'这不过是我的思维方式'的事——这在教练辅导中堪称黄金线索。我们容易轻视自身优势，只因'这对太我简单了'，殊不知对他人并非如此。

I think that tracks things quite like the Highlands. But if you were doing some investigation on your own, I would say look at where people give you compliments and you have a tendency to say, Oh, that's just how my brain works. That's just how my brain works is gold in coaching. Like that helps us understand the types of situations that you are best suited for. Sometimes the things that we do well, I think we can like discount because we think, oh, this feels so easy to me, but it feels easy to you, not to everyone around you.

我发现海兰测评也适用于高中生和低年级大学生——此时你已初步明确兴趣方向，随着课程接触更多领域，可能思考'要成为心理学家还是技术员'。有位对心理学感兴趣的客户通过测评，清晰看到自己多项特质与该领域高度匹配——

I have found that the Highlands can also help with I mean, doing these assessments also for rising high school students, college students in their earlier years, where at that point you have a good sense of like what you're interested in. And as you take more classes, you get exposed to more things. And you might be thinking, maybe I want to be a psychologist or maybe I want to be some sort of a technician. I'm thinking of a client who had curiosities about psychology. And through taking the Highlands Ability Battery, it became clear, like, wow, there are so many characteristics and traits about you that would seem to suit you well in this position.

这助她选定学位方向，避免浪费时间和金钱。毕竟四年本科乃至研究生教育投入巨大，此类测评能帮你选择最适合的项目。最后，我们会通过ADHD及其他心理健康诊断的视角来审视评估结果。

And it helped her choose a degree path and not waste more time or more money. This is to commit yourself to even a four year degree. Certainly grad school, there's a lot of money and effort and time involved. And so these sorts of assessments can help you better choose the programs that are going to work best for you so that you aren't losing time or money. The final piece to the assessment is that we look at things through the lens of ADHD and any other mental health diagnoses you have.

我提到的所有评估工具都很棒，我自己全都做过。虽然我是个测评爱好者，但这些测试并不能全面反映像ADHD、自闭症谱系障碍（ASD）这样的特质，或是焦虑抑郁倾向。通过NeuroEval评估，我们能整合所有信息进行判断——比如测评结果可能显示你适合当生物学家，但如果我们了解你的学习偏好、信息处理或数理阅读方面的特定挑战，最终报告就不会简单断言'这就是你的天命'。

All of the assessments I mentioned are great. I've taken all of them. I'm a bit of an assessment nerd, but they don't really paint things through for like a picture of that includes ADHD or ASD or if you have a tendency to be anxious or have feelings of depression. And so reviewing the NeuroEval allows us to kind of look at all of the information and decide, well, on the assessments, maybe it says that you should be a biologist. But if I know that there's a certain way that you like to study, if I know that there's a certain challenges that you have around processing or reading or math, like when you get your final report, we aren't going to say, Oh yeah, this is definitely it for you.

我们会综合考量这些因素。当前有位客户做完所有测评后，数据指向某个方向，但加入ASD诊断后，我们就能理解：'这是你真正的兴趣所在吗？你能持续专注数小时而不耗竭精力吗？'识别特殊兴趣至关重要，这样最终建议就不会出现'测评显示你该当宇航员，但实际这对你并非最佳选择'的情况。

We're going to take these things into consideration. I have a client now who has completed all of the assessments, kind of put one picture and seem to go in a certain direction. But when you add in a diagnosis, let's say of ASD, it helps us understand like, oh, is this something that you are really interested in? Like, is this something that you can do for not that you should necessarily every day, but for hours on end without losing the focus or the energy? Like, it's important for us to understand what are your special interests so that when we make our final recommendations, we're not saying, Hey, you should be an astronaut if it turns out that's not going to be what's best for you, even if that's what the results might say.

我们会在客户汇报中整合所有发现，将零散线索串联成清晰图谱。这对客户常有启发意义——职业思考通常不是线性过程，而是散落的念头、零星的探索。我们将其整合成完整的个人画像。

And we wrap all of this up in a debrief for the clients. And this is where we kind of connect all the dots and bring it together and put it literally in black and white. I think this is illuminating for clients often because we tend to think about career things not in this very linear, thoughtful, regular approach. We have thoughts here and have some feelings over here and maybe we have a little bit of time to investigate over here. But we're bringing it all together so you can see a profile of yourself.

贯穿全程的核心是引导深度自省。虽然可以自主思考，但对ADHD人群而言，专业引导就像定期看牙医一样重要。如果你从未做过职业测评或咨询，且对现状不满，现在正是寻求专业帮助的时机。

I mean, think the theme through all of this is a very we're trying to encourage very high quality deep introspection. And sometimes you can do that on your own with the questions that you come up with yourself. But I find, especially with ADHD, it's helpful to have someone to guide us through that process. In the same way how we have our regular visits to the doctor or the dentist. If you haven't had an opportunity yet to work with a career coach or to take a career assessment, and you find that you are not getting the level of satisfaction you want out of your career, it might be time to talk to someone.

以我个人为例：晋升后我脱离了热爱的实务工作，在高压环境中管理团队。尽管旁人夸我'天生适合'，但每天结束时我都精疲力尽——大脑像多线程处理器般超负荷运转，总担心一个失误就全盘崩溃。

I mean, a part of my personal story is I got promoted, was doing no longer doing the work that I really enjoyed, had to manage other people in a very fast paced, very demanding environment. And even though I was getting feedback from other folks like, Oh, you seem like you're really good at this, you're a natural. At the end of the day, I was exhausted. I was exhausted from having my mind running all different kinds of tracks, trying to remember things, trying not to let things fall apart. And I had that feeling of if I have one bad day or one bad week, this could all fall apart.

这不是我想要的生活状态。通过教练辅导下的自省，我发现自己的特质其实更适合做教练。你或许疑惑：'ADHD不会让你分心吗？'确实我有时会坐不住，但对此领域的强烈兴趣让我能完全沉浸其中。现在让我们进入问答环节吧。

And that's not the way that I want to end every day. You know, through this kind of introspection and working with a coach, found, oh, I have certain traits and skills that would make me that seem to suggest I do really well as a coach. And you might think, oh, well with ADHD, like, isn't your mind going to wander? Or as people are talking or is it hard to sit in your seat which you've seen me move around a few times maybe it is but because I'm very interested in it right it's easy for me to lock in when I'm working with clients to do this sort of work. So I think at this point, we'll turn this over.

相信大家一定有不少问题，我们非常期待各位的提问，也很乐意提供帮助。

I'm sure that you all have some questions and we are pretty pumped to see what you all have to ask and how we can help.

感谢Bruce博士和Nadeau博士。在问答开始前，请允许我再次感谢inFlow对本次研讨会的赞助。关于Myers Briggs等测评工具，有观众提问：'这些测评结果会随着人生阶段变化吗？'

Thank you, Bruce and Doctor. Nadeau. Before we start the Q and A, I'd like to thank inFlow once more for sponsoring this webinar. Now to your questions. Speaking about the Myers Briggs and the other assessments that you mentioned, someone asked can these change during the different seasons of your life?

好问题。Myers Briggs本意是评估持久稳定的核心特质。但就像所有自评量表，'输入垃圾，输出垃圾'——如果回答时戴着社会期待的面具，结果就会失真。它的有效性完全取决于你的诚实与自省深度。

That's a great question. The Myers Briggs is meant to really look at fundamental traits that tend to last throughout our lifetime. However, as in any self report questionnaire, garbage in garbage out. If you are not really reflecting your true self, many people respond the way they think they ought to be, the way they've been encouraged to be. And so it's only as useful as you are honest and self reflective.

当然，随着人生境遇变迁，我们的状态确实会发生显著变化，这自然会影响到行为表现。

That being said, of course we change over the course of our lifetime and our circumstances change which hugely impact how we're functioning.

好的。我们收到了不少关于是否应在求职面试前披露ADHD（注意力缺陷多动障碍）的问题。

Okay. We had quite a few questions around should ADHD be disclosed prior to a job interview?

我很喜欢这个问题，但你可能不喜欢我的答案——这是我的真实看法。我从不建议人们主动披露自己的ADHD，原因是你永远不知道这个术语对谈话对象意味着什么。许多人对ADHD存在严重误解或过时认知，他们可能会认为：'这人刚刚承认自己是个不可靠的废物，我不会录用他'。ADHD并不是个能让雇主产生好感的词，他们也没接受过如何激发我们潜能的培训——如果安排合适岗位，我们很可能成为最高效、最有活力的员工。

I love that question and you may not love my answer but it is my answer. I do not ever recommend that someone disclose their ADHD and the reason I don't is you have no idea what that term means to the person you're talking to. A lot of people have a very distorted or outdated notion of ADHD. And they may think this person has just, disclosed that they are an unreliable flake and I am not going to hire them. I mean, is not a term that endears us to employers and employers haven't been educated as to how to get the best out of us and that we might be their most productive and most dynamic employee if replaced in the right position.

所以不，我认为主动披露对我们没有好处。你可能会问：'如果不披露，我怎么获得合理便利？'我建议人们换种方式提出需求。比如当你的工位位于办公区特别嘈杂的位置时，完全可以说：'我发现工作效率大幅降低，因为无法屏蔽那边的噪音'——你并没有提及ADHD。

So, no, I don't think we're doing ourselves a favor. And so you say, if I don't disclose then how do I get accommodations? I tell people ask for accommodations in a different way. For example, if you are if your desk is in a particularly noisy area of your office suite, you can certainly say I'm finding myself much less productive because I can't screen out all of that noise over there. You're not saying you're ADHD.

很多人都有屏蔽噪音的困扰。我会这样表达：'在安静环境中我的写作效率更高，能否批准我在家完成这份报告？或者使用会议室工作？'你既没有披露ADHD，又主动提供了解决方案——这就是我常指导人们采用的方式。

A lot of people have trouble screening out noise. So I would say to people I can write better when I'm in a very quiet environment. Can I have permission to work from home when I'm finishing this report or can I have access to the conference room while I'm working on this report? You haven't disclosed ADHD. You have actually offered a solution to your problem and that's how I tend to work with people.

这些建议太棒了。有人问：转行是否存在年龄上限？

Oh those are such great suggestions. Someone asks when is it too late to change careers?

噢，这问题很有意思。这取决于你计划活多久？还打算保持多少年精力？个体差异极大，你需要了解自身状况。比如我在这个星球上已生活近八十年，依然精力充沛热爱事业——但同龄人中像我这样的可不多。

Oh well that's a great question. Like how long do you plan to live and how long do you plan to have any energy? It's enormously variable and you have to know yourself. I mean I have been on this planet almost eight decades right now and I have lots of energy and I love my career. But that's not true of many people who are exactly my age.

所以关键在于自我认知。明白吗？

So you need to know yourself. Okay.

是的。补充说明：我的客户中约三分之一是55岁以上人群。这些事业有成者常对我说：'我感觉自己还有更多精力可以贡献'。于是'安可职业'概念应运而生——基于早年未及探索的兴趣重新设计全新职业生涯。

Yeah. And can I just add about a third of my clients are 55 and older? And these are folks who have had very successful careers and they come in and they say, well, I have more energy. I feel like I have more to contribute. And the idea of the encore career comes up where you can design a whole new career based around interests that maybe you didn't get to explore in the very beginning.

在ADHD得到良好管理和健康状况下，人类寿命正在延长。只要头脑清醒身体硬朗，限制只存在于你的心理预设。我每天都会指导那些孩子已独立的客户规划未来十到十五年——这简直像获得重启人生的机会。开启第二职业非常普遍且完全可行。

And so with well managed ADHD and health, we are living longer. And as long as this is together and this is sharp, there's only the limit that you place on it. I mean, work with folks every day who are figuring out how to use their next ten to fifteen years, now that the kids are out of the house. It's almost like you have an opportunity to start life over. So it's very common and very possible to have another career.

布鲁斯，能举例说明这些职业转型者后来从事的工作吗？

Bruce, could you give us a few examples of some of these late career changes and what these people do?

我常见的一个例子是律师。我很惊讶地发现许多患有多动症的律师如何完成法学院学业并维持漫长的职业生涯。他们往往会在某个节点感到精疲力竭。比如我有个客户做了多年律师后，决定回归最初让他进入这个领域的公设辩护人工作——当年他就是在资源匮乏的情况下开启这份职业的，那是他的第一份工作。

A common one I see is with lawyers. I'm surprised I've learned how many lawyers manage law school and very long careers with ADHD. And there's often a point where they become burned out. So for I have a client of mine who has been a lawyer for quite some time and decided to go back to the what got him into the field as a public defender, where initially he started that role under resourced. It was his very first position.

如今在从事了三十年其他类型的法律工作后，他正以全新视角重返这个领域。他特别关注的是指导新入行的公设辩护人。这是同行业持续发展的案例。我还有位对室内设计感兴趣的客户，就像常见的那样，这位妻子曾为家庭需求搁置了自己的职业追求。

And now after having thirty years of practicing a different kind of law, he's going back to this with a new lens. And his particular focus is he's helping to mentor other newer public defenders. That's an area where he's where the person has stayed in the same career. I have another example of someone who had an interest in interior design. And like I see fairly often, the wife will put their own desires for advancement on hold while the family gets the structure and support that it needs from her.

后来这位客户决定重拾对室内设计和艺术的兴趣，但不知从何着手。通过职业评估，我们发现她完全可以把昔日爱好转化为实际产品或服务。最终促使她下定决心的，是对临终关怀的强烈兴趣——这其实很典型，因为多动症患者往往极具同理心。她曾为家人处理过大量临终事务，在这方面很有天赋。

This client decided later on, you know, I want to bring back my interest in interior design and art, but I'm not sure how. Through career assessments, we looked at, oh, there's multiple ways for you to turn what used to be a hobby into actual products or solutions for other folks. Ultimately, the deciding factor for her was paying attention to her interest, which included one that I actually doesn't surprise me because ADHD folks are pretty empathetic. She was very good with people with end of life care. She had managed a lot of that for her family.

她成功将帮助临终者的愿望与实体艺术创作结合，为逝者家属设计纪念品。关键始终在于平衡两个问题：我的兴趣是什么？以及哪些事是让我乐此不疲还能获得报酬的？这需要充分讨论来梳理兴趣点，再设计低阻力、适合多动症患者的测试方案，直到找到最终发展方向。

And she was able to combine her desire to help people in that phase of their life with her kind of physical art approach to come up with ways that you could make mementos and reminders for the family members who would be, you know, still here even if their other family members had died. And so there were it's always a mix or has been a mix of what are my interests and what are the things that like if I could do all day and get paid for, what would I explore? It's just a matter of like talking it out, getting a sense of like the interest essentially and then figuring out like how do we actually make this happen? And coming up with some low friction ADHD friendly ways to test and experiment until we find the final solution that they pursue.

谢谢。我们收到几个类似问题：我总在热爱工作后陷入自我破坏的循环，为何这种模式反复出现？如何打破？

Thank you. We had a few variations on this question. I love my jobs at first, but then I become dissatisfied and I self sabotage. Why does this happen so predictably and how do I stop this cycle?

这是个很棒的问题。我合作过的许多杰出人士也面临同样状况，因为初创阶段需要的技能（构思与实施）与日常运营所需的技能截然不同。这并非缺陷，而是需要自我认知。25年前有位知名人士汤姆·哈特曼——他撰写的《猎人生活在农夫世界》其实就是自述。

This is a great question and I've worked with many people many incredibly successful people who could say the same thing because the skill set for startups, the skill set for coming up with an idea and implementing it are very different from the skill set for managing an ongoing project or concern. And I don't even consider that a problem. It's not like I need to have a different kind of brain. But to realize that about yourself and anticipate it. There's a fellow who was very well known twenty five years ago and some of you may know him now named Tom Hartman.

如果你看过他的履历，会难以置信这些成就竟出自同一人之手。他在了解自己的多动症特质后，开创每个项目时都会配备经理人，计划好交接事宜便转向新项目。这其实是种特殊才能，但需要主动规划转变。

And he was he wrote Hunter in a Farmer's World and he really talked about himself. And if you ever read his resume, you would not be able to believe that it was one person that did all those things and he did all of them well, but he didn't stay with any of them and he was really getting to know his ADHD and as he knew that about himself, he started each enterprise with a manager by his side. So the plan always was I'm going to turn this over to you to manage and then I'm going to go on to my next exciting project. So that's really an ability but it requires change. Right.

有观众问：如何避免职场中的拒绝敏感痛苦？

Someone asks how do I stop rejection sensitive dysphoria from making me miserable on the job?

这个问题很复杂，因为它本质是人生课题而非职场问题。在不了解具体处境的情况下，我要指出：某些存在小团体、排挤文化的职场环境，对高敏感人群简直是噩梦。

That's a very complicated question because it's not really a workplace question. It's how am I functioning in my life question. And one of the things I would I don't know the circumstance of the person asking the question. But there are some workplaces that can be very cliquey. There can be workplaces where they're in groups and out groups and tendency to gossip among them.

如果你易受拒绝情绪影响，就该优先选择能独立工作、自主决定社交范围的环境。虽然敏感特质难以改变，但至少可以主动选择共事的人群。

And if you are very sensitive to rejection, is absolutely not the kind of a workplace that you want to be in. And you may be much more comfortable in work where you're working more independently and that you have some choice over the people that you interact with. That you have rejection sensitivity. But you also have to some extent the power to choose the people that you work among.

其中一个问题是，在面试过程中如何识别某个工作环境可能不适合我？

One of the questions is how do I recognize during the interview process that a workplace might not be a good fit?

布鲁斯，你想

Bruce, you want

回答这个问题吗？

to take that one?

是的。在我申请之前查看职位描述时，如果看到诸如快节奏、动态环境、多任务处理能力、同时处理多项事务的能力等术语，这并不总是明显的警示信号。但如果在面试前，我会浏览他们的网站，研究公司价值观、组织结构，以及在我做这些调研时反复出现的信息或主题。如果我注意到一种趋势，比如这是一个高功能、高绩效的环境，在面试中我也会留意——高绩效环境本身没问题。

Yeah. When I'm looking at job description even before I apply and I see terms like fast paced, dynamic environment, the ability to multitask, the ability to do multiple things at once. That's not always like a dead giveaway. But if I look at their before going into the interview, I look at their website and I look at the company values, I look at the company structure, I look at the messages that kind of appear or the themes that come up as I'm doing this research. If I notice there is this trend of like, this is a high functioning, high performance environment and the interview I'm listening for, it's fine if this is a high performance environment.

但关键是他们是否也提供高支持？比如我与经理的互动会怎样？有哪些资源支持我完成工作？如果到那时我还没有感觉到‘哦，这些人虽然期望很高但支持也很到位’，而只是听到‘我们需要你能快速切换处理大量事务且没有支持’，那可能意味着这个职位不合适。

Is there also high support? So like, what's going to be my engagement with my manager? What kind of resources are available for me to do this work? And by that time, if I haven't got a sense of like, Oh, it sounds like these people have high expectations, but they provide high support. If it just sounds like there's a lot that we need you to be able to do and switch between very quickly without support, that might be a sign that this is not the right role.

整体公司可能还是合适的，但这个具体职位...如果到面试时我还没有建立起这种信心，可能说明这不是最佳匹配。

Could still be the right firm overall, but this specific role, I mean, if I don't have that sense of confidence by the time I get to the interview, it's maybe a sign that it's not the best fit.

好的。有人写道：我在一个越来越觉得不适合的职业里待了十年，经济上无法离开这个领域重新开始。当人们被困在会加剧ADHD症状的职业中时，如何找到平衡？

Okay. Someone writes I have ten years into a career that I'm feeling less and less suited for. I'm not financially able to leave the field and start over. How do people find balance when they're stuck in a career that exacerbates their ADHD symptoms?

我很乐意尝试回答这个问题。关键在于要区分职业和职业中的具体工作。你说有财务压力，不能彻底推倒重来。我们大多数人都负担不起这种改变。

I would be happy to take a crack at that one. And that is there is a big difference between a career and a job within that career. You're saying I've got financial obligations. I can't just do apple cart turnover and start all over. Most of us can't afford to do that.

我们有孩子、房贷和账单。但我们可以做的是，在同一个职业领域寻找不同的工作岗位。无论是律师、教师还是其他职业，内部都有极其多样的工作类型。

We've got kids. We've got mortgages. We've got bills. But what we can do is look at different jobs within the same career. If you're a lawyer, if you're a teacher, if in almost any profession there's an enormous variety of jobs.

所以我建议可以和我或布鲁斯这样的人合作，找出当前工作中让你困扰的具体因素。可能是主管过于苛刻，可能是工作场所极度混乱——如果在同领域同职业但管理更好的岗位，你可能会很适应。也可能是资源不足，就像布鲁斯说的，有些岗位配置不足却对员工要求过高。但如果你留在同一职业领域，只是换到不同组织，可能会感觉舒适得多。

And so I think working with someone like myself or Bruce to identify what is it about this job that's making it so hard for you. It may be that you have a hypercritical supervisor. It may be that it's a highly disorganized workplace and that if you worked in a better managed job in the same field in the same career, you might be very comfortable. It may be that there are just fewer resources or you know, like Bruce was saying there are jobs that they're under sourced and they're expecting way too much of all of their employees. But you might stay in exactly the same career in a different organization and feel much more comfortable.

因此我真心建议人们在转行前，先认真看看是否有可能在同一家公司内部调动到更有趣或更适合的岗位。多年前我认识一位在国家医学图书馆工作的女士，听起来是个很棒的工作。但她觉得工作非常无趣，因为基本上就是为研究人员查找资料和参考文献。不过他们内部有一份很有意思的简报，而她热爱写作。于是她开始自愿为那份简报撰稿。

So I really ask people before they change careers to really look at even are there places you can move within your same company that might be more interesting or a better fit. I worked with a woman years ago that worked at the National Library of Medicine. Sounds like a great job. She found her job very uninteresting because basically she was tracking down resources and references for researchers. But they had a very interesting internal newsletter and she loved to write And so she started volunteering to write for that newsletter.

不到一年，她就调到了那份内部简报的岗位工作。我确实鼓励并指导她慢慢转向那个更适合她的领域。所以在你的职业道路上，可能存在着各种你尚未想到的可能性。

And within a year her job was working at that internal newsletter. And I really encouraged her and guided her to sort of shuffle over there where it was a much better match. So there are all kinds of possibilities that you probably haven't thought of within your career path.

好的，这是个棘手的问题。当职场霸凌者是你的上司时，你该如何应对？

Okay. Here's a tricky one. How do you handle bullies in the workplace when they are your boss?

这个问题我想交给你来回答。

I'm going to let you take that one.

我首先想到的是，或许我们需要换个新上司。我在思考他们霸凌你的原因——首先我要说明，直属上司对你是否喜欢工作和职场体验有着超乎寻常的影响力。所以如果上司确实是个霸凌者，那处境确实很糟糕。我想大概有几种方式可以指导应对这种情况。有些上司的霸凌表现为出尔反尔，比如说过的话不承认，然后说'我没说过这话'。

My first thought is like, maybe we need to get a new boss. I'm wondering about the are they bullying you because Well, first, let me just acknowledge your immediate supervisor really has an outsized impact on how much you like your job and your work. And so that's a really crappy situation to be in if your boss is indeed a bully. Guess there's a couple of ways I might coach someone through this. If I understood that some bosses are bullies in that they aren't they'll like say one thing and not remember what they said and then be like, oh, I didn't say that.

像是'你本该注意到'或'你本该准备更充分'这类话。我发现记录这些事件很有帮助，比如简要写下：发生了什么，我对这个经历的理解，以及未来我可能会如何回应。但霸凌者的棘手之处在于，他们就是会持续霸凌。

Like you should have caught that or maybe you should have been more prepared for that. I find that it's helpful for me to just document when these things happen, like what to jot down. This is what happened. This is kind of like how like what I'm making of this experience and here's how I might respond to this in the future. The challenge with the bullies, though, is that they are they're going to be bullies.

所以我首先考虑的是，如何建立必要的情绪盔甲来处理这种情况，并意识到他们的态度或情绪其实与我个人无关。我需要确保有方法处理工作中产生的情绪。但我会把主要精力放在思考对策上——或许可以在职场中建立同盟。但有个霸凌型上司确实是个噩梦。我在想如何分配时间：第一照顾好自己，培养所需的情绪调节能力；第二制定退出策略。

And so my first thought is, how do I get the kind of emotional armor I need to be able to, like, process and determine, like, Oh, this their attitude or their energy really doesn't have anything to do with me directly. I'd want to make sure that I have a way to process the emotions that come up at work. But I might spend most of my effort thinking about, I mean, you could argue, you could like maybe build an alliance with other folks at work. But to have a bully as a supervisor is a that's a real dream. And I'm thinking, how do I carve out time to, one, take care of myself, build the skills and emotional regulation that I need, and then two, find a way to like, what's going to be my exit strategy?

比如如果我知道只需要再忍受这个霸凌者九十天，这比想着'我要和这个人共事一整年或整个职业生涯'更容易承受。是的。

Like if I know I have to put up with a bully for maybe another ninety days, that's more surmountable than thinking, oh, I'm stuck with this person for like the rest of this year or the rest of my time at this company. Yes.

好的，有人写道：我25岁的儿子因为经常迟到被解雇，现在他患有严重的焦虑症，缺乏勇气求职。我能做些什么来帮助他？

Okay someone writes my 25 year old son was fired from his job for being late all the time and now he has debilitating anxiety and he lacks the courage to apply for a job. What can I do to help him?

这是个很好的问题。我认为对于某些患有ADHD的职场人士，尤其是年轻人来说，焦虑是如影随形的。25岁时大脑仍在发育，到30岁时你会比25岁更擅长自我管理和工作。面对任何引发焦虑的情况，如果我是那位家长，我会和他们25岁的孩子一起寻找最低焦虑的实践环境，来培养准时起床出门这类执行功能技能。我会安慰他们：这些技能会在未来几年逐渐培养起来，大脑也在持续发育，所以几年后做这些事会更容易。

That's a very good question and I think anxiety is a constant companion for some people with ADHD on the job and especially young people who really at 25 your brain is still developing. You're going to be much better at managing yourself and your work when you're 30 than when you're 25. And with any anxiety producing situation, I were working with that parent and their 25 year old, I would be problem solving to find what is the lowest anxiety provoking situation you can put yourself in to practice developing those executive functioning skills that you need to get yourself up on time and get yourself out the door on time. And I would reassure them that these are skills that you're going to develop over the next few years and your brain is continuing to develop. So, it's going to be easier for you to do these skills a few years from now.

那么我们来谈谈如何支持你重新振作起来。我甚至建议从‘假设你正在工作’开始练习——即使现在你并未就业。让我们练习按时就寝、准时起床、准时出门，哪怕你外出完成的是自我设定的任务。我特别推荐的一个任务是外出锻炼，因为这能帮助你的大脑感觉更好、运转更佳。

So let's talk about how we can support you in getting up and out there. I would even start with Okay, you're not working right now. But let's act as if you were. Let's practice getting yourself to bed on time and getting up on time and getting out on time even if the task that you go out to do is a self assigned task. And one task I would really recommend is to get out there and exercise because that's going to help your brain feel and function better.

逐步培养这些自我管理技能，直到你有信心走出去寻找下一份工作。我认为这个过程不需要持续数月，我会指导人们在几周内完成这样的调整。

And build those self management skills one step at a time until you have the confidence to get out there and look for your next job. And I don't think it has to last for months. I think this is something that I would coach somebody to do over the course of weeks.

好的。遗憾的是这必须是我们最后一个问题，因为时间到了。但Nadeau医生和Bruce，非常感谢你们今天参与节目，并与我们的ADHD群体分享专业知识。我们深表感激。

Okay. Unfortunately that has to be our last question because we're out of time. But Doctor. Nadeau and Bruce thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your expertise with our ADHD community. We appreciate it.

非常感谢你们的邀请。还有太多话题值得探讨，我们真心感谢所有听众的参与。多希望能回答你们所有问题。

Thank you so very much for inviting us. There's so much more to talk about and we really appreciate all of you for listening in. We wish we could answer all of your questions.

是的，非常感谢今天的听众。如需获取活动资源，请访问attitudemag.com搜索播客570号。每场直播网络研讨会的幻灯片和录音会在几小时后发布。回听时直接点击单集描述即可。

Yes, yes and we appreciate today's listeners. Thank you. And if you would like to access the event resources, visit attitudemag.com and search podcast five seventy. The slides and recording are posted a few hours after each live webinar. If you're listening in replay mode, simply click on the episode description.

请注意我们的全部Attitude研讨会内容已作为播客上线，名为《ADHD专家播客》，可在多数流媒体平台收听。订阅attitudemag.com/newsletters的免费电子通讯，确保不错过未来Attitude研讨会、文章或研究更新。感谢大家，祝你们今天愉快。

Please know that our full library of attitude webinars is available as a podcast. It's called the ADHD Experts Podcast and it's available on most streaming platforms. Make sure you don't miss future Attitude webinars, articles or research updates by signing up to receive our free e mail newsletters at attitudemag.com/newsletters. Thanks everyone. Have a great day.

更多Attitude播客及注意缺陷障碍生活指南，请访问attitudemag.com。网址是additudemag.com。

For more attitude podcasts and information on living well with attention deficit, visit attitudemag.com. That's additudemag.com.