阿里·伊曼纽尔谈娱乐业的未来：好莱坞、人工智能、创作者经济、YouTube与Netflix之争

阿里·伊曼纽尔，格斗体育界的新霸主。好莱坞最具影响力的权力掮客之一。

Ari Emanuel, the newest kingpin of combat sports. One of Hollywood's biggest power brokers.

从董事会到政坛无处不在。有个叫阿里·高德的人物，很多人都以为是以你为原型命名的。

It's everywhere from the boardroom to, you know, even politics. There was another figure named Ari Gold that many people thought was named after you.

这位直言不讳的交易高手以总能达成目标而闻名。

The straight-talking deal-maker has a reputation for getting what he wants.

我回来了，你被开除了。

I'm back and you're fired.

伊曼纽尔不懈努力，将奋进公司打造成价值数十亿美元的巨无霸。

Emanuel has worked tirelessly to transform Endeavor into a multi-billion dollar behemoth.

女士们先生们，有请阿里·伊曼纽尔。

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Ari Emanuel.

(欢快音乐)(掌声)谢谢。嘿。

(upbeat music) (clapping) Thank you. Hey.

欢迎。我们上次见面是什么时候？在那次晚餐上吗？

Welcome. When's the last time we saw each other? At that dinner?

没错，是的。

Exactly. Yeah.

你看了那个小组讨论吗？

Did you see that panel?

看了。

Yeah.

（笑）你认识亚历克斯吗？

(laughs) You know Alex?

认识，我认识亚历克斯。我觉得他很棒，我很喜欢他的书。

Yeah, I know Alex, yeah. I think he's great. I loved his book.

是啊，那本书太棒了。

Yeah, the book was incredible.

是啊。

Yeah.

那么你怎么看...（笑）我们刚才看到的内容？

So what's your take... (laughs) on what we just saw?

嗯，我得说，这里面有很多值得探讨的地方。

Well, there's, there's a lot to cover there, I might say.

（笑）

(laughs)

（笑）

(laughs)

那么——

So-

好吧，让我们从头开始。阿里，你经历了一段非凡的历程。你建立了一个了不起的企业，最近又有机会整合大量资产，整个事业已经自成一体了。

Well, let's start at the beginning. Ari, you have had an incredible arc. You've built an incredible business, and recently, you've had the opportunity to merge a bunch of assets and just the thing has just taken a, a life of its own.

能否请你回顾一下奋进公司过去四五年的发展历程，包括你最初离职、创业、再到业务扩张的整个过程？

Can you maybe walk us through the last four or five years of the evolution of Endeavor and, you know, your process of first leaving, building a business, then scaling it up, and just all of that-

嗯。

Yeah.

...还有那些行动，以及整个TikTok热潮？

... action, the TikTok of it all?

唔。

Mm.

是这样的，嗯...3月29日，我刚来洛杉矶时每英里只能赚15美分。后来去了中情局工作等等，然后在30岁生日那天——差不多31年前——也就是3月29日创办了公司。

So, um, uh, March 29th, when I first came here, I was making 15 cents a mile, when I moved to LA. Went to work at CIA, et cetera, then started the company March, uh, 29th on my birthday, 30, almost 31 years ago.

呃，我从乔治·吉尔德写的《电视地狱》这本书里获得灵感，预见到内容产业的走向。书中说'未来将出现无限分发渠道，内容会变得极其珍贵'。

Um, had this idea about where, uh, content was going from George Gilder, who wrote this book, Like Hell for Television, and said, "There's gonna be infinite distribution and then content's gonna be v- really, really valuable.

还说'内容会呈现多种形态'。于是（清嗓子）我们就开始拓展业务，试图涉足这个行业的每个领域。

And there's gonna be many forms of content." And so (clears throat) we kind of went out and started growing the business and trying to get into every sector of the business.

让这场竞争变成了两强相争，当我们，呃，所谓的‘合并’时——

Made it a two-horse race with, when we, uh, m- quote, unquote, merged-

合并。

Merged.

与威廉·莫——

With William Mor-

对。

Yeah.

……莫里斯。嗯，我认为那实际上是我最成功的交易之一，那次合并。后来，呃，当泰迪·福斯特曼去世后，我们与银湖资本一起收购了IMG，他们当时已经入股公司，然后我们就进入了体育领域。

... Morris. Um, I think one of my best deals actually, that merger. And then, um, when Teddy Forstmann passed away, bought IMG with Silver Lake, who had come into the company, and then we were in sports.

后来我们意识到这全都属于经纪业务，并意识到凭借我们建立的体系、打造的全球规模、制作能力以及经纪网络，我们可以开始拥有部分

And then we realized it was all in the representation business, and then realized that because of what we built, the infrastructure we built and the global scale we had and the production and, um, representation, we could start owning some of the

资产而不仅仅是代理它们，并通过我们的筛选机制创造更多价值。

assets as opposed to just representing them, and kind of put them through our, our filters and kind of create more value.

我们做的第一件事是收购了这家名为'职业公牛莱利'的公司，当时它年利润约三百万美元。我们把它打造成了一个非常不错的业务，至今仍在增长。

And so the first thing we did is we bought, uh, this company called, uh, Professional Bull Riley, that was, I think, making, uh, three million dollars a year in profit. We turned it into a really nice business. It's still growing.

正因如此，我们每天都在与各大电视网和制片厂谈判。当UFC出现时，我们说'好，让我们来次大手笔'。有趣的是，收购IMG时他们说我们出价过高。

And then because of that, um, and we had negoti- you know, we negotiated every day against networks and studios. The UFC came up and we said, "Okay, let's take a big swing." The funny thing is when we bought IMG, they say we overpaid.

这实际上是史上最便宜的体育资产收购。而当我们买下UFC时，他们当时的估值才4...

It was the cheapest sports acquisition ever happened, and definitely when we bought, uh, UFC, they were like at 4.-

当时——

At the time-

它——

It l-

...看起来贵得离谱。

... it looked incredibly expensive.

贵得离谱。

Incredibly expensive.

是的。

Yeah.

我们只需达成一项广播协议，就能将估值倍数从30倍、20倍降至10倍以下。当时我们认为可以整合所有这些资产...我犯了个大错，嗯，组建了一个企业集团。

And all we had to do was kind of make a broadcast deal that then took the multiple down from 30, 20 times to kind of under 10. We then thought we could take all those assets... My big mistake here, um, a conglomerate.

是的。

Yeah.

市场就是理解不了这种模式。

The marketplace just didn't understand it.

是的。

Yeah.

于是我们试图在新冠疫情前上市。失败了。我没意识到重新上市有多难。最终总算成功上市。我们将UFC所有业务并入奋进集团。但，嗯，依然没获得任何价值。于是我们...

And so we tried to take it public right before COVID. Failed. I didn't realize how hard it was to go back out. Finally got it back public. We, we kind of rolled all of the UFC into Endeavor. And, um, we still weren't getting any value. We then...

文斯同意了，我们合并了资产。在体育娱乐领域打造一个纯业务实体，能让华尔街更容易理解。

Vince said yes, and we merged the assets. A pure play was, in sports, sports entertainment, was a better conversation with the street.

我是说，刚开始时我们有传统的有线电视网络，然后是电缆电视。

I mean, when you started, we had the traditional cable networks, then we had cable.

对。

Right.

那是个非常等级分明的——

It was a very higher- hierarchical-

对。

Right.

...而且容易理解的等级体系。

... and easy to understand hierarchy.

对。

Right.

然后现在有了流媒体平台，今天下午我们还会请到YouTube的尼尔·莫汉。

And then you have the streamers, and now, you know, this afternoon, we'll have Neal Mohan from YouTube.

对。

Right.

然后还有像MrBeast这样的红人可以直接触达用户，所以局面非常混乱。怎么——

Then you have characters like the MrBeast of the world who can go direct, so it's very chaotic. How-

不，其实这又回到了乔治·吉尔德的理论。

No, it's actually just back to George Gilder.

这又回到了乔治·吉尔德的理论。

It's back to George Gilder.

分发渠道是无限的——

There's infinite distribution-

没错。

Right.

...内容形式多种多样。人们消费播客，消费Instagram和TikTok上的内容，现在还会消费流媒体平台上的内容。所以...

... many forms of content. People consume podcasts. People consume, you know, stuff on Instagram and TikTok. People consume stuff now on the streamers. And so...

我确实认为传统业务不会很快消失，因为我们的体育界人士——比如NFL、NBA——仍然在那里销售商品，同时也卖给像亚马逊这样的全球企业。

And I do, I don't believe that traditional business is going away for a long time because a lot of our sp- our sports guys have... The NFL, the NBA, has still sold stuff there, plus also sold it to the Amazons of the world.

所以你基本上掌握了一个庞大的分销网络分布图。

And so you just have a vast kind of map of where distribution is.

分销网络虽然扩大了，但很多人会说，有些人认为内容类型变得有些僵化、固化，可能过于刻板了。

So distribution has gotten vast, but a lot of people would say, some people would say, the kinds of content has gotten a little ossified, calcified, rigid maybe.

呃——

Um-

这是什么意思？

What does that mean?

意思是，你知道的，现在看不到15、20年前那种内容多样化的盛况了。

Meaning like, you know, you don't see, like, the broad swath of the content that you would see maybe 15, 20 years ago.

人们不再接受——

People don't take it-

我觉得现在内容更多了——

I think there's more content now-

但你觉得人们还会像以前那样敢于承担创意风险吗？

But do you see people taking creative risk the way that they used to before?

我不知道。我觉得，我觉得，我觉得...我永远看不够内容。我不——我不了解你。未来的内容会比以往任何时候都多。我认为现在有非常多出色的声音。

I don't know. I think, I think, I think... I can't get enough content. I don't thi- I don't know about you. There's gonna be more content than there's ever been. I think there's incredible voices out there.

我觉得正在制作的内容，它，其中大部分都非常棒。真的非常出色。确实如此。是的。

I think the content that's being made is, it, there's a vast majority and I think it's really incredible. I do. Yeah.

阿里，你对播客以及顶尖人才的整体流动趋势怎么看，梅根——

Ari, what do you think of podcasts and the general movement of top talent, Meghan-

……呃，塔克。

... uh, Tucker.

塔克。你们啊。

Tucker. You guys.

好的，当然，我们——我们稍微落后于他们，但，呃，他们能够保持独立且不隶属于任何网络。

Okay, sure, we're- we're a little bit behind them, but, um, the ability for them to be independent and not affiliated with a network.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是我们在业内前所未见的。过去有把关人，你需要被打包、被代理，而现在，你知道，人们总是带着加入不同网络的各种机会来找我们。

This is something we have not seen in the industry. There were gatekeepers, you used to have to get packaged, represented, and now, you know, people come to us all the time with different opportunities to join different networks.

我不会谈论具体细节，但我们决定了，嗯，我们为什么需要他们呢？

I won't talk about any specifics, but we've decided, well, why would we need them?

你们要独立运营了。

You're gonna be independent.

对啊，既然我们拥有这个能随时召集的惊人受众群体，为什么还需要他们呢？

Yeah, why, why would we need them if we have this amazing audience that we can convene?

你知道有趣的是，我认为播客行业会变成以前广播和电台集团那种联合经营的模式。比如奥普拉就是曾经的巨头。

You know, the funny thing is I think the podcasting business is gonna turn into the syndication business that used to be on the broadcast and the station groups. So, Oprah was the behemoth.

就像国王统治世界那种感觉吗？

Like the king world kind of thing?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

奥普拉曾是巨头，随后她捧红了菲尔博士、奥兹医生等一大批人。如果你想的话，可能会看到这种现象通过播客主们重现。

Oprah was the behemoth, and then Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz, she launched a bunch of them. You'll probably see that reincarnated through people with podcasts, if they want it.

我们在Barstool就见证过这种情况。

We saw that at Barstool.

对。

Yeah.

所以你是说我们之后可以搞联合制作——

So, you're saying we could then syndicate-

它将通过这种多渠道方式，成为下一个有线电视/联合播出模式——

And it will become, it will become the next cable/syndication model through this, through the multiple channels that-

所以，我们应该成为一个网络。

So, we should be a network.

对。

Yeah.

那我们该培养人才吗？

And we should develop talent?

没错。你们需要些代表，伙计们。

Yeah. You need some representation, guys.

但是，你看...（笑）

And look, but, but... (laughs)

（笑）

(laughs)

你知道问题出在哪吗，阿里？说实话，很多代-代表性问题，老实说——

You know what the problem is, Ari? It's like a lot of the repr- representation, to be totally honest-

烂透了。

Sucks.

...我们不会，是的，我们只会考虑与那些曾经在高水平上做到过的人建立同行关系。

... we don't, yeah, and we would only consider a peer, you know, relationship with somebody who has done it before at a high level.

对。

Yeah.

如果你认识这样的人。

If you know anybody.

嗯。我不认识。

Yeah. I don't.

（笑）

(laughs)

你不知道吗？好吧，阿里，让我——

You don't? Well, Ari, let me-

谁擅长这个，我不清楚。

Anybody good, I don't know.

嗯，其中一件事我——

Well, one of the things that I-

我们正在谈论你呢，阿里。

We're talking about you, Ari.

（笑）

(laughs)

是的，我注意到这些大型独立公司的一个共同趋势是，他们从过去的商业广告投放转向赞助协议，先是获得单一赞助商，最终发展到自主经营

Yeah, one of the things that I've noticed has become a common kind of thread with these big independents is they move from what used to be kind of commercial ad placements to sponsor deals, where they got one sponsor to eventually owning their own

业务。

business.

正确。

Correct.

那里的价值要大得多，因为倍数效应，你获得的是收入的倍数，不仅仅是广告，还有营销线。

And the value there is so much greater 'cause the multiple, you get a multiple on revenue, you don't just get advertising, the marketing line.

对。

Right.

你知道，塔克有他的阿尔卑斯产品，幸好J-Cal今天不在，不，请不要让他上节目。呃，还有...

You know, Tucker has his Alps product, which J-Cal, uh, fortunately is not on today, no, please don't put it on. Uh, and, uh...

你是说使用促销码ALLWIN吗？

You're saying use the promo code ALLWIN?

嗯，吉米有他的巧克力棒公司。

Well, J- Jimmy's got, uh, his, uh, chocolate bar company.

是的。

Yep.

你认为大型独立媒体未来的盈利模式会是持有那些历史上仅作为赞助商的企业的股权吗？这就是价值所在？

Is that the future, do you think, for monetization for the big independents is that they actually own the equity in what historically have just been sponsors for them, and that's where the value is?

你将拥有自己播客的股权，对吧？大约10年前我们创业时，很多人在西密歇根大学起步，当时叫人才创投，许多音乐人、演员

Well, you're gonna own the equity in your podcast, right? And then a lot of people, when we started this business, I don't know, about 10 years ago, we called, we started at WMU, it was called Talent Ventures, where a lot of musicians, actors

开始涉足，因为随着广播电视网和有线频道收视率下降，制造商必须直接触达观众。他们过去是通过广告来实现的。

started because, you know, with the broadcast networks and cable channels ratings going down, you know, manufacturers had to get to the audience. And so, they, they used to do it through commercials.

当收视率下降后，他们开始出让股权，或者人们开始推出各种产品。有时是酒类，有时是香水，有时是食品等等。

When that rating went down, they started then giving equity or people started launching, you know, a lot of different products. Sometimes it was alcohol, sometimes perfume, sometimes it was food, et cetera.

这种情况现在会发生在像你这样的播客主身上。

That will now start happening with people like you, other podcasters.

格温妮丝·帕特洛做得非常出色。

Gwyneth Paltrow has done an exceptional job.

是的，这只是个自然演变，因为广播电视和有线电视的现状。制造商必须找到触达观众的途径。

Yeah, so that, that's just a natural evolution because of where broadcast television is and cable television is. Manufacturers are gonna have to get to an audience.

你们拥有一个非常庞大且忠实的观众群体，包括这些活动，以及你们在广播中做的那些事情。嗯，你知道，产品会主动找上门来。

You guys have a very big and loyal audience, this, events, and things that you do on, you know, over the air. Um, you know, products will come to you.

你，你将做出决定，是接受赞助资金还是选择所有权收益？这只是在评估经济效益，以及你是否相信这个产品。

You, you will make the decision, are, are you taking the sponsorship dollar or are you taking the ownership dollar? And that's just the pro- evaluating the economics and, and whether you believe in the product.

这其中涉及很多因素。

There's a lot of things that go into that.

是的。阿里，你花了多少时间试图弄清楚，所有这些下一代AI工具如何帮助你，或许能提供运营杠杆，让你在内容创作上更具创造力——

Yeah. Ari, how much of your time are you spending trying to figure out where, like, all these next gen AI tools either help you, give you maybe operating leverage to actually go and be even more creative on the content-

对。

Right.

...而不是可能颠覆一些传统行业的人——

... versus maybe disrupt some of the legacy folks-

对。

Right.

……你曾经合作过的？

... you've worked with?

你知道，我们在TKO和威廉·莫尔斯正在建立一个完整的项目，探讨AI如何能帮助我们。在制作方面，工作室和我们的客户还有更多其他举措。

You know, we have a whole program being set up at TKO and, and, and William Morse about kind of how AI can help us. On the production side, there's a whole nother that the studios are doing and our clients are doing.

你看，我已经做了决定，我对AI了解不够，也不够聪明去深入了解AI。我决定专注于直播内容领域，我在这方面很在行，也非常擅长将其变现。

You know, I have, I've made a decision, I don't know enough about AI, I'm not smart enough to know enough about AI. I made a decision that live is, content is where I'm gonna sit, I'm really good at that. I'm really good at monetizing that.

所以，我们有一个纯粹的体育娱乐业务。我刚启动了一个项目，将在十月上线，我认为这是下一代现场活动业务的雏形。

So, we have a pure play sports, sports entertainment business. I just launched, which will launch in October, kind of what I believe is the next kind of live events business.

你知道，我们有体育业务，还有Live Nation和迈克尔·拉皮诺那不可思议的纯音乐业务。当我们还是上市公司时——现在已私有化——我们在Endeavor旗下有700场活动。

You know, you have our sports business, you have, well, Live Nation and Michael Rapino's an incredible, that's pure play music. And I think there's, when we were a public company, now we're a private company, we had 700 events inside Endeavor.

我，嗯……这个项目将在十月的第一周完成。收购了其中许多业务，筹集了约20亿美元和900...我将全力投入现场活动领域，因为我认为这是相反的选择。

I have, um... It'll be completed in, first week in October. Bought a lot of those, raised about $2 billion dollars and about 900... And I'm gonna go pure play in events 'cause I think it's the opposite.

如果那边押注AI，那么与之对立的赌注不是数据中心，而是现场活动。

If you have AI over there, the opposite bet on AI is not data centers, it's live.

人类渴望连接。

Humans want connection.

渴望连接。

Want connection.

你不断回归生活，是的。

You keep going back to live, yeah.

而且我认为现在可能更像是每周四天工作制，未来可能会减少到三天。我刚见过埃隆，看到了那些机器人。要实现充分就业，可能每周只需工作三天。人们将会有大量空闲时间。

And I, and I think it's kind of like a four-day workweek now, probably going down to three. I was up seeing Elon and seeing the robots. Probably three-day workweek for full employment. There are gonna be a lot of free time.

我们显然都需要连接，正如我们此刻所见。因此，我的核心理念是生活化。嗯，我认为威廉·莫尔斯那边虽然令人惊叹，但只有两种商业模式。

We definitely all need connections, as we can see right here. And so, my whole thesis is live. Um, and I think on the William Morse side, which is incredible, there's only two representation business.

威廉·莫尔斯是其中规模最大的，未来内容创作会有更大空间。

William Morse is the biggest one of all of them, and there's gonna be more room for content.

我想，我想放慢节奏，深入探讨这一点，稍等。

I wanna, I wanna slow down and double click into this, just wait.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我们周一到周五工作。周六——

So, we work Monday through Friday. Saturday-

不，不是，不是——

No, not, not-

你——

You-

我觉得没多少人——

I don't think a lot of people-

不。

No.

……现在很少有人周一到周五工作了。

... work Monday through Friday anymore.

但我是说，比如说——

But I'm saying like, let's just say-

我们曾经是。

We used to.

是啊，曾经是。周一到周五，周六你得拖着孩子去踢足球。

Yeah, we used to. Monday through Friday, Saturday you're schlepping the kids to soccer.

没错。

Right.

周日休息一天，看看橄榄球赛，然后周而复始。

Sunday you get a rest day, watch some football, then rinse and repeat.

现在这一切都是谎言了。

That's all a lie now.

这些都要消失了吗？

That's going away?

不不不，现在美国的平均驾驶时间是上午11点到下午4点。所以人们都在做家务——

No, no, no. Right now, drive times, average drive times in America, 11:00 to 4:00. So, people are doing their chores-

11点到4点？

11:00 to 4:00?

他们在做周末早上或下午必须做的事情。他们拿着手机处理各种事务。周四的酒店预订量大幅上升，大幅上升。

Doing their stuff that they have to do on the weekends in the morning or in the afternoon. They have their mobile phones, they're doing their stuff. Thursday hotel bookings are way up, way up.

所以——

So-

三天周末。

Three-day weekends.

三天周末。

Three-day weekends.

我很震惊。什么？这就是远程工作的后遗症。

I'm shocked. What? And this is the overhang of remote work.

嗯，请从后面给他拿些咖啡。你应该开始喝咖啡了，因为看看数据就知道，我们现在实行的是四天工作制。我觉得很快就要变成三天工作制了。

Well, get him some coffee, please, from back there. You should start drinking coffee because if you just look at the data, we're at four-day workweeks now.I think it's going to three-day work weeks.

这意味着有更多时间娱乐——

Which means more time for entertainment-

更多时间，更多，更多，更多。

More time, more, more, more.

……这是你的关键部分。萨克斯，你想插话。

... is your key piece to it. Sacks, you wanted to get in.

嗯，我本想接着贾马尔的话说，就是，你参与了这么多不同的事情。你是怎么决定时间优先级的？因为你可以，我不知道，去帮助威廉莫里斯的客户。

Well, I was gonna sp- build on something Jamal said, which is, you, you have so many different things you're involved in. How do you decide how to prioritize your time? Because you could be, I don't know, helping William Morris clients.

有——

There's-

是啊。

Yeah.

……代表工作本身就可能永无止境。

... representation could be a never-ending job by itself.

没错。

Right.

你已经有了TKO。你可能正在寻找新的收购目标。你是怎么决定时间分配的？

You've got TKO. You could be looking for new acquisitions. How do you decide how to spend your time?

感谢上帝我有注意力缺陷多动症。

Thank God I have ADHD.

（笑）

(laughs)

嗯，听着，其实这周五就是我们完成TKO合并两周年的日子。我记得合并时股价是100美元，后来跌到了79美元。谁要说自己不关注股价，我每天差不多要看19次。

Um, listen, actually this Friday is two years since we, um, did the merger at TKO. We merged at, I think, $100 and then went down to $79. Anybody that says they don't look at their stock price, I look at it every, like, 19 times a day.

（笑）

(laughs)

昨天，我们突破了200美元。我认为，我们正在落实之前所说的关于精简两家业务、整合它们的所有计划。

Yesterday, we hit $200. We're doing, I think, everything we said we were gonna do with regard to kinda streamlining the two businesses, integrating them.

二月份我们引入了PBR现场活动，以及IMG，这基本完善了TKO为所有体育爱好者提供的服务套件。

We brought over in February, uh, PBR, um, on location and, uh, IMG, which kind of fills out the suite of what we do at TKO for everybody that wants sports.

我们已经达成了广播协议，现在正全力推进，专注于我们必须完成的任务。

We made our broadcasting deals and we're just kind of powering away at what that, you know, focused on what we have to do.

就你个人而言，现在是不是已经完全不接代理业务了？

Are you personally, at this point, just kinda out of representation?

不，不，不。没有，没有。

No, no, no. No, no.

或者你偶尔还会介入，帮助客户吗？

Or do you dip down sometimes and, and help clients?

不会。

No.

你怎么看这件事？

How do you see that?

你知道，从事艺人经纪这一行，无论是马丁·斯科塞斯、道恩·强森、马克·沃尔伯格、彼得·伯格，还是我众多客户中的亚伦·索金，都让我能在TKO促成交易，因为我是

You know, being in the representation business, whether it be Marty Scorsese, or Dwayne Johnson, or Mark Wahlberg, or, or Peter Berg, or a wh- a great dea- a whole host of my clients, Aaron Sork- enables me to make the deals over at TKO because I'm

这个圈子里的核心人物。

in the conversation.

没错。

Right.

与YouTube、亚马逊、奈飞这些我必须打交道的平台合作——而我确实做到了。现在经营这门生意，因为我不再参与'你没给这人回电话'这类琐事，那些已经不管了。

With YouTube, Amazon, Netflix, a- all the people I need to be in business. And w- and I do that. The running of that business now, 'cause I'm not in, like, "You didn't call this person back." I don't do that anymore.

但在代理我的客户和经纪公司客户方面，我每天都亲力亲为，因为这确实对其他业务有帮助。

But in the representation of my clients and the clients of the agency, I'm in it every day, because it does help the other businesses.

你最痴迷哪个平台？YouTube还是奈飞？

Which platform are you the most obsessed with? YouTube, Netflix?

全部。

All.

好的，但如果你有一个客户，你认为在未来五到十年内最重要的是哪一个？

Okay, but which one, if you have a client, do you think is the most important over the next five or 10 years?

谁会付给他们最多的钱，并且在创意上——

Who's gonna pay them the most amount of money and creatively-

（笑）没错。

(laughs) Right.

……让他们能够做自己想做的事。

... enable them to do what they want.

好吧，阿里，让我问你一个问题……这是一个非常重要的问题，我本来也想问尼尔的。

Well, Ari, let me, let me ask you a question on... This is a really important question, I was gonna ask this of Neal as well.

我听到很多曾经在Netflix制作内容的人说，他们想转到YouTube，因为Netflix的利润空间被压缩了，所以他们提供的——

I've heard from a number of folks that have historically, uh, done production on Netflix that they wanna move to YouTube because Netflix, like, the margin's compressed and so they're offering-

而且没有人——

And no one-

……更糟糕的交易。

... worse deals.

那不是真的。

That's not true.

好吧。

Okay.

那不是真的。

That's not true.

而且，我听到很多人说：“如果我独立运营，在YouTube上发布内容就有无限上升空间。

And, and so I've heard a lot of folks say, "Well, if I go independent, I have unlimited upside if I publish on YouTube.

我只需要资金支持。”是否有一个新兴的世界——

I just need financing." Is there an emerging world-

但这些...听着，这些是不同的...这取决于你的定位。如果是YouTuber，对吧？

But those are... Listen, those are different... It, it depends on where you're at. If it's a YouTuber, right?

他们想要扩大规模并且——

And they wanna scale up and-

他们想要扩大规模并且...他们有X数量的资源，可能会先在YouTube上起步，或者在Facebook上，又或者在Twitter上。一旦达到某个水平，他们就会做出决定。是...能...

And they wanna scale up and th- th- they have X amount, will probably start on YouTube or start on, uh, or start on, at Facebook or start on, on Twitter. Once they get to a certain level, they'll make a decision. Is th- is... Can...

他们是否有适合在Netflix上播放半小时或一小时的产品，或者适合拍成故事片？

Do they have a product that's right for a half hour or an hour on, on Netflix or a feature film?

没错。

Right.

这与YouTube的商业计划不同，尼尔会和你详谈。所以再次强调，你不能一概而论。

That's different from what YouTube's business plan is and Neal will talk to you about that. So, again, y- y- you can't generalize that conversation.

但你有没有看到，有没有看到为YouTube内容提供独立制作资金的兴起？比如有人说"我只需要制作资金"这种情况？

But are you seeing, are you seeing a burgeoning of independent financing for production that would go out on YouTube? Like, where folks are saying, "I just need production financing.

帮我找些合作伙伴，然后……"

Find me some partners and then..."

你是说给YouTuber找吗？

You mean for a YouTuber?

对YouTuber来说，是的。

For YouTubers, yeah.

是啊，我是说，有时候...

Yeah, I mean, some- sometimes.

这是... 不是——

Is that... It's not-

我不是——要——

I'm not- to be-

……这不是你现在看到的那种规模扩大的情况吗？

... that's not something you're seeing kinda scale up right now?

我绝对不涉足那个领域。如果，呃...你知道，如果...大卫说过。我，我...那不是我...我确实看到。我们公司有人负责那些...我们专门为YouTuber设立了一个部门，等等。

I'm definitely not in that space. If they, t- you know, if... David said. I, I... That's not something I- I do see. There's people in my company that do, that... We have a whole division for YouTubers, et cetera.

播客业务，那是我们刚组建的团队，目前非常成功。

Podcasting, that's a whole group that we've started, it's very successful right now.

阿里，曾几何时，内容创作者的梦想是拥有自己的知识产权。后来Netflix进场说：'嘿，我们会付你更多钱'

Ari, there was a time when the dream of content creators was being able to own their IP. Netflix came in and said, "Hey, we'll pay you much more."

对。

Right.

'但你们再也不能拥有《辛普森一家》的版权了'

"But you don't get to own The Simpsons anymore."

没错。

Right.

'你们无法拥有这个IP'。但你们——

"You don't get to own this IP." Yet you-

嗯，记得吗，随着广播电视的联合制作模式逐渐式微...但最初还存在第三个窗口，那就是Netflix。

Well, remember, the syndication model as broadcast television s- started to fade away as this... But there was a... At the beginning, there was a third window, which was Netflix.

如今，有线电视和电视台集团的窗口已经有些消散了。

Now, the cable and the station group window has kind of dissipated a little bit.

对。

Right.

没错。但当你...现在规模虽小，当你与广播公司达成协议时，Netflix和（比如NBC的）Peacock之间确实会有一场竞价战。我们刚完成一笔大...

Right. But when you still... When you make a deal at a broadcaster, smaller now, you do have a bidding war between Netflix, whether it be... if you're at NBC, Peacock. We just finished a big...

我们即将完成《办公室》的一笔大交易，这部剧最初是在广播电视台播出的。他们正在买断新内容，是的。

We're finishing up a big deal for The Office, which started on broadcast. The new stuff, they're buying out, yes.

是啊，所以你没有机会像《辛普森一家》《南方公园》或《宋飞正传》那样操作了，但你自己却在投入——

Yeah, so you don't have this opportunity to do what, you know, The Simpsons did, to do what South Park did, to do what Seinfeld did, but you yourself are spending your-

我不确定。我刚为《南方公园》谈成的最后一笔交易对团队来说相当不错。

I don't know. I don't know, the last deal I just made for South Park is pretty good for the guys.

不，我知道，但那似乎是最后一代能获得这种待遇的人了。新一代似乎直接把他们的知识产权交给了网飞。你自己也说，‘我想拥有知识产权’，而你选择购买它们。

No, I know, but that seems to be the last generation to get that. This new generation seems to be just giving their IP over to Netflix. You yourself are saying, "I want to own the IP." And you're choosing to buy them.

那么，你对客户有什么建议？因为如果他们不拥有知识产权，就无法成为亿万富翁。

So, what is your advice to the clients? 'Cause they can't become billionaires if they don't own IP.

有个客户，我...有个叫诺亚·霍利的客户，他刚在迪士尼首映了《异形地球》系列。嗯，他还制作了《冰血暴》。才华横溢的家伙。我刚签下他，对吧？他将达成新协议。

So, there's a client, I... There's a client by the name of Noah Hawley, just had the Alien Earth show that premiered on, at Disney. Um, he did Fargo also. Incredibly talented guy. I just signed him, right? He's gonna make a new deal.

在过去，格雷格·丹尼尔斯、拉里·大卫、艾伦·索金或吉姆·布鲁克斯的客户赚取了难以置信的财富。

Now, back in the day, Greg Daniels or Larry David or Aaron Sorkin or Jim Brooks clients made a unbelievable amount of money.

吉姆确实...吉姆做得不错。

Jim did g- Jim did well.

我刚才提到的那些人都做得非常、非常、非常好。是的，他在重播权上赚的钱不会像他们那么多。但他会做得非常、非常、非常好。所以如果你真有才华且取得成功，你会做得非常好。当它...

All of those people I said did very, very, very well. Yes, he will not make as much money as they did in syndication. But he will do very, very, very well. So if you're really talented and you have success, you will do really well. And when it's...

当节目被重播和转售时，他会做得非常、非常好。现在不像以前，如果你的剧集进入重播市场，每集能卖六百万美元，你再也赚不到五、六亿美元了。

When it gets re-aired and re- and resold, he'll do very, very well. It's not, if you have a show that goes into syndication and, and it gets six million dollars an episode, you can't make five, six hundred million dollars anymore.

但你可以赚到——

But you can make-

数千万。

Tens of millions.

是的，比那还多，但你可以——

Yeah, more than that, but you can-

对。

Yeah.

……你可以做得非常、非常好。

... you can do very, very well.

你曾经是个——

You were a-

所以，呃——

So, f-

...你是——

... you're-

是啊，我是说——

Yeah, I mean-

嗯。

Yeah.

...我没在哭。

... I'm not crying.

你以顽强拼搏著称。

You're famous for fighting hard.

是啊。

Yeah.

实际上，《明星伙伴》里还为此塑造了一个标志性角色。

In fact, there was an iconic character created on Entourage for that.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，你最喜欢哪场争斗？是雪莉·阿佐夫吗？还是贾斯汀·巴尔东尼？迈克·奥维茨？这些标志性的争斗中，哪场让你最乐在其中？

Um, which was your favorite fight? Is it Sherry Azoff? Was it Justin Baldoni? Mike Ovitz? Which did you get the most pleasure fighting with? Of all these iconic fights you've had.

你知道的，就像我刚才说的全部？呃，不，我是说，我，听——

You know, like I just said all? Um, no, I mean, I, l- listen-

带我们，带我们回顾一下。

Take us, take us through it.

...当你30年前刚入行时，你还没有定价权，当时你面对的是威廉莫里斯、ICM、UTA、CAA这些巨头。

... when, when, when you're at the beginning of your career 30 years ago, and you do not have the ability to change price, and you have, at the time, you had William Morris, ICM, UTA, CAA.

而你只是第五大，你必须拼命争取，因为人们只觉得你是个好欺负的菜鸟。

And you're the fifth, and y- you have to fight really hard because people just think you're a chump.

没错。

Right.

而且我不... 是的。当人们不以为意... 因为我有阅读障碍，我记得成长过程中，任何认为我愚蠢的人，他们都触碰了高压线，所以当你在这一行成长时，所有人都会想，“哦，你只是——”

And I don't... yeah. When people don't think... 'cause I'm dyslexic, I remember growing up, anybody that thought I was stupid, they touched the third rail, and so when you're growing up in this business and everybody thinks, "Oh, you're just-"

是啊。

Yeah.

...那就会触碰高压线。

... that touches the third rail.

好欺负的人，你得——

A pushover, you gotta-

我，我不，我在那方面不行。

I'm, I'm not, I'm not good there.

（笑）

(laughs)

有没有可能... 不，但这是个，这是个严肃的问题。让《明星伙伴》回归，为什么还没实现？我们爱这部剧。我们是看着它长大的。

Any chance... No, but it's, this is a s- and this is a serious question. Bringing Entourage back, why hasn't this happened? We love this. We grew up on it.

（笑）

(laughs)

有多少人想看重聚？你就是能让这事成真的人。我和艾德里安·格兰尼是朋友，我经常和他聊这事。

How many people wanna see the reunion? You're the guy who can make it happen. I'm friends with Adrian Grenier. I talk to him all the time about it.

对。

Right.

而他说：“这不是我能决定的。”

And he says, "Not my choice."

我在想，你们这次讨论会请大卫·扎斯拉夫来吗？

I think, are you, are you guys having David Zaslav on this, on this panel?

不请。

No.

不请。

No.

没有扎斯拉夫。

No Zaslav.

我想我应该打电话给他。我没有任何——

I think I should call him. I don't have anything-

那么，是他在幕后操控吗？

Well, is he holding the strings?

嗯，是的，他们——

Well, yeah, they-

HBO。

HBO.

...HBO啊——HBO，是的。

... HBO ha- HBO, yeah.

但你是阿里。你可以直接去命令他们执行。

But you're Ari. You could go and just tell them to do it.

好的。

Okay.

让我们——让我们希——希望这笔交易能成。

Let's make- Let's ho- let's hope that deal happen.

拜托了。

Please.

在竞争方面，迈克尔·奥维茨对你而言是导师还是竞争对手？

On competition, was Michael Ovitz a, a mentor to you or a competitor?

我曾为迈克工作过，嗯...我从收发室做起，后来有了自己的办公桌。他，你知道的，他非常了不起。他几乎改变了整个行业。在他之前是卢·瓦瑟曼。他们都该被刻在拉什莫尔山上。

I worked for Mike for, um... I was in the mail room, then I was on a desk. Um, he was, you know, he, he was incredible. And you, he kinda changed the business. Before him was Lew Wasserman. They would be on Mount Rushmore.

我认为迈克做对了很多事。我的意思是，他是...有远见的人。我年轻时观察并回顾这段经历时发现，他接手了可口可乐的业务。我记得当时是从格雷广告公司拿到的。

I think Mike did a s- so many things right. I mean, he was a visionary for the... The one thing when I was a young guy looking at it and looking back at it, you know, he started, he took Coke. I think it was from Grey Advertising at the time.

我想是格雷公司。我那时常自问，他当时有那么多资源，为什么不直接买下格雷广告？那样他本可以改变整个代理行业的格局。他可以让公司上市。这样一来...

I think it was Grey. And I always said to myself at the time, like, he had so much currency at the time. Why didn't he buy Grey Advertising? And he could've changed the dynamic of the agency. He could either take it public. And so that when...

当时我在一家叫Inner Talent的公司，后来被ICM收购了。ICM虽然拥有最顶尖的经纪人资源，但管理实在糟糕。后来我们创办了自己的公司，我就明确表示'我绝不会重蹈ICM的文化覆辙'。

and then I was at this company called Inner Talent, they got bought by ICM. ICM, like, had the greatest agents sold, and it just was bad management. And then we started the firm, and I just said, you know, "I'm not gonna have a bad culture like ICM.

当机会来临时，我要争取那些我能真正拥有并改变行业格局的资产，重新定义经纪公司的运作模式、代理方式以及——

And when the opportunity comes, I'm gonna go for assets that I could own and change kinda the dynamic of what an agency and what representation and what kind of-"

之前从来没人从股权角度考虑过这个问题。

That's what no one had done before is think in terms of equity.

对。

Yeah.

有没有哪些你希望拥有但还没拿下的资产？或者说...你想收购电影工作室吗？想买运动球队吗？

Are there any assets that you don't own that you wish you did? Or, or w- would you like to buy a studio? Would you like to buy sports teams?

什么——

What-

我不想收购电影工作室，也不想买运动球队。

I don't wanna buy a studio. I don't wanna buy a sports team.

好的。

Okay.

我刚创办了这家公司，筹集了大约20亿美元。我要成立一家大型活动公司，所以现在非常忙碌。我热爱现在的生活，而且，嗯，TKO目前处于绝佳位置，我们达成了所有交易。

I just started this company. I raised about $2 billion. I'm gonna start this big events company. So, my plate's really full. I'm loving life right now, and, uh, yeah, I mean, TKO's on its, in a great place right now with all the deals we made.

我们有个很棒的合作伙伴，大卫·埃里森。你看到VMA颁奖礼上的情况了吗？我们的思路是同时在MTV、CBS和流媒体平台播出，获得了他们有史以来最大的观众群。

We have a great partner in, um, uh, David Ellison. And you saw what happened at the VMAs where w- our thought process, they put it on MTV, they put it on CBS, and they put it on streaming. The largest audience they ever got.

UFC也会采取同样的策略。现在鲍勃·艾格和吉米·皮塔罗将把WWE引入ESPN，我认为这对这项资产来说会是惊人的发展。

That's gonna be the same thing for the UFC. And now Bob Iger and Jimmy Pitaro are gonna launch, um, the, the WWE on ESPN. I think it's gonna be incredible for that asset.

所以——

So-

你认为所有体育项目——

Do you think that all sports-

我...我是说，我不...现在没什么可说的了——

... I, I, I mean, I don't... there's nothing left right now-

对。

Right.

……我们即将推出，你知道的，这周末有一场重要比赛，呃，卡内洛对战……与Netflix合作。所以我们目前形势不错。

... we're launching, you know, we have a big fight this weekend, uh, the Canelo fight f- with Netflix. So, we're in a good place.

阿里，你认为所有体育项目未来都会发展良好，还是说有些项目必须适应，你知道的，现在孩子们注意力持续时间更短——

Ari, do you think that all sports continue to do well in the future or will some sports have to adapt for, you know, the fact that kids have a shorter attention span-

是的。

Yeah.

……他们需要更快的节奏？比如，像棒球这样的运动会怎样？那些节奏较慢、更持久的运动项目会怎样？

... they just need faster action? Like, what happens to things like baseball? What happens to the, maybe the slower, more e- prolonged sports?

你知道，我、我认为所有人都必须适应。我、我喜欢我们这项运动的一点是，就像UFC一样，节奏很快。

You know, I, I think everybody's gonna have to adapt. The, the thing I like about our sport is the, the v- it's, like, the UFC, it's fast.

节奏很快。

It's fast.

骑牛比赛，八秒钟规则，你知道吗？

Bull riding, eight seconds, you know?

是啊。

Yeah.

你懂的，可以在手机上观看。嗯，WWE是家庭娱乐节目，而且，所有这些，呃，无论是UFC还是WWE都是全球性的大品牌。我觉得除了那些，你知道的...

You get it, you can watch it on your phone. Um, WWE is family entertainment and, and all of them are, um, the, both the UFC and the WWE are huge global brands. I think all of them except, you know...

我昨天和罗杰·古德尔聊过，我说"你们能编出多少剧情线？"那是个难以置信的周末，除了该死的周一晚上熊队输了，但，呃，我觉得他们中很多人必须适应，我认为

I had a conversation with Roger Goodell yesterday, I was like, "How many storylines can you get?" It was an unbelievable weekend, except for f- Monday night when the Bears lost, but, um, I think a bunch of them are gonna have to adapt and I think

对其中一些来说，价格必须下调，因为，呃，我不认为，呃，美国国内市场是他们的理想之地。至于冰球和棒球这些大项目，嗯，他们正在...

for some of them, pricing is gonna have to come down because, um, I don't think, uh, the, the US domestic market is the right place for them. As it relates to hockey and baseball, the big ones, um, they're doing...