迈克尔·格雷格医学博士：医生、作家、NutritionFacts.org创始人

无论我们咀嚼得多充分，总会有完整的细胞到达肠道，为有益菌群提供更多益生元。

And no matter how well we chew, there's going to be intact cells that make it down and actually bring some more prebiotics to our good gut bugs.

因此，通过随机让人们食用整粒坚果或坚果酱、燕麦粉或燕麦片、鹰嘴豆泥或整粒鹰嘴豆，实际上在摄入相同食物量的情况下能获得更大的粪便体积。

And so, can actually, so by eating, so by randomizing people to eat either nuts or nut butters, or powdered oatmeal versus rolled oats, or hummus versus chickpeas, you can actually get a greater stool bulking eating the exact same amount of food.

这是因为大部分粪便并非未消化的食物，而是细菌本身——每茶匙粪便含有数万亿细菌。当你用完整的全谷物和豆类喂养它们时，足够多的营养物质到达肠道促使它们繁殖，并产生所有那些对我们健康有益的益生菌代谢产物。

It's because most of stool is not undigested food, it's actually bacteria per bacteria, literally trillions per teaspoon, and when you feed them those intact whole grains and legumes, enough makes it down there that they multiply and produce all those good postbiotics that are healthy for us.

所以我们建议将绿叶菜打碎食用，但其他植物性食物尽量保持完整形态摄入。

So we blend our greens ideally, but try to eat the rest of our plant foods intact.

好的。

Okay.

太棒了。

Amazing.

而且我超爱燕麦。

And and I've I I love oatmeal.

我确实曾经往蛋白奶昔里加过一勺燕麦片，不过这种情况非常少见。

I I guess I have put a tablespoon of oatmeal into a protein shake before, but that is so rare.

所以这对我来说不是个问题。

So I'm not that's not a concern for me.

但我要说，我甚至这样做过，比如这是我的燕麦片做法，我会加入奇亚籽，和苹果一起煮，还会加肉桂之类的，非常美味。

But I will say that I've even done, like, here's how I make oatmeal, and I'm adding, you know, chia seeds and cooking it with apples and stuff like that, and it's delicious and cinnamon.

太棒了。

Great.

总是有很多人评论说燕麦片有毒，因为含有植酸。

Always get a ton of people commenting that oatmeal is poisonous because there's some phyllates.

我都不知道那是什么。

I don't even know what that is.

对。

Right.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

确实存在一些所谓的营养抑制剂，其中之一就是植酸。

So there's these number of so called nutrient inhibitors, one of which phytates.

植酸。

Phytates.

这是基于大约半个世纪前对小狗进行的研究得出的结论。

This was based on studies done on puppies about a half century ago.

实际上在人体中它们并不会与矿物质结合，这才是人们所担心的。

In people they actually don't bind minerals, that's what was concerned.

我们担心的是高植酸饮食会导致狗的骨骼软化问题。

We were concerned about the softening of bones in dogs fed high phytate diets.

这在人类中似乎不成问题，而且事实上它们似乎含有抗癌成分。

That does not appear to be a problem in people, and in fact they appear to have anticancer compounds.

所以人们摄入的植酸酶越多，实际上患癌率就越低。

So the more phytase people eat, actually the lower rates of cancer they have.

所以这并不需要担心。

So that's not a concern.

在整个营养抑制剂领域，唯一真正需要关注的是草酸盐。

The only really concern in that whole sphere of nutrient inhibitors are oxalates.

有几种高草酸盐食物，如甜菜叶、瑞士甜菜和菠菜，如果每天摄入数杯，可能会增加患草酸盐肾结石的风险，这种结石会非常疼痛。

There are a few high oxalate foods, beet greens, Swiss chard, and spinach, that if you eat literally cups a day, multiple cups a day, you can run the risk of getting oxalate kidney stones, which can be very painful.

此外，每天食用超过一杯坚果也可能导致草酸盐问题，每天一勺以上的桦褐孔菌粉或杨桃也是如此。

Also, eating more than a cup of nuts a day, you could run into some oxalate problems, chaga mushroom powder even over a spoonful a day of star fruit.

我们应该远离杨桃，即使只吃几个杨桃也会摄入过多草酸盐。

We should stay away from star fruit, even just a couple star fruit is too many oxalates.

所以如果你打算每天吃几杯绿叶蔬菜——要知道深绿色叶菜是地球上最健康的食物——我建议你选择其他低草酸盐的蔬菜，如羽衣甘蓝、芥兰、芝麻菜和小白菜等，这些都可以无限量食用。

So if you're going eat cups of greens a day, and look, dark green leafy vegetables are the healthiest food on the planet, I would just encourage you to eat any of the other greens like kale and collards and arugula and bok choy, all those other ones, which are low oxalate and you can just kind of eat unlimited quantities.

好的。

Okay.

那我就不用担心西兰花或抱子甘蓝这类蔬菜会有这些问题了？

And I don't have to worry about any of this with like a broccoli or a brussels sprout?

完全不用担心。

Absolutely.

不过说到提高对营养和绿叶蔬菜的吸收率，我们确实需要注意：在食用这些绿叶菜的同时，胃里需要有些脂肪来源，因为类胡萝卜素是脂溶性营养素。

Although you do want to, speaking of improving your absorption of nutrients and greens, we need to have some source of fat in our stomach at the same time those greens are consumed because the carotenoids are fat soluble nutrients.

举个例子，如果你单独吃番茄莎莎酱，番茄中那有益于降低前列腺癌风险等的番茄红素就几乎无法被吸收。

So, for example, if you just eat salsa alone, very little of the lycopene, that red pigment in tomatoes would be so helpful in reducing prostate cancer risk, etc.

实际上能进入血液的番茄红素微乎其微。

Very little actually makes into your bloodstream.

但如果加点牛油果，突然就有更多番茄红素能被吸收了。

Add a little avocado, all of a sudden more than that lycopene makes it into your system.

沙拉也是同样的道理。

Same thing with a salad.

如果你吃沙拉时用无脂酱料，不加坚果、种子等配料，那么其中的β-胡萝卜素等类胡萝卜素几乎无法被吸收，就像没吃过这盘沙拉一样，因为餐食中缺乏脂肪。

If you have a salad with a fat free dressing, no nuts, seeds, nothing like that, you actually it's almost as if you never ate the salad at all because the carotenoids, like the beta carotene, the carrots actually don't make it into your bloodstream because there's no fat in that meal.

好吧，如果你想用无脂沙拉酱，那就加些核桃、南瓜籽、奇亚籽、亚麻籽，或者放点牛油果进去。

So, fine, if you want to have a fat free dressing, but add some walnuts, add some pumpkin seeds, add some chia seeds, add some flax seeds, put some avocado in there.

你需要在吃这些蔬菜的同时，胃里也要有脂肪。

You need to have fat in your stomach at the same time you have these vegetables.

否则，你花钱买了这些食物，但它们却无法被身体吸收。

Otherwise, you paid for all this food, but it's not making it into your system.

那连膳食纤维的好处也得不到吗？

Do you not even get the fiber benefit from them?

哦，膳食纤维的好处还是有的，水溶性营养素也能获取，比如维生素C和叶酸。

Oh, you you do get the fiber benefit, and you get all the water soluble nutrients, right, like the vitamin C and folate.

我的意思是，虽然不是说完全没用，但你总想最大化吸收吧。

Also, I mean, so it's not like it's useless, but you wanna just maximize.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，既然你选择吃真正健康的食物，那不如把该吸收的营养都吸收到位。

I mean, you if you're going to choose to eat really healthy food, might as well get, you know, all you all you came for.

吉姆，我现在每次吃蔬菜都会很紧张，觉得必须搭配一些脂肪。

And and just, Jim, because now I'm gonna be very stressed out every time I eat vegetables that I have to have some fat.

需要多少量才够？

What amount is necessary?

比如，如果我

Like, if I

没有。

have No.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

非常少量。

Very little.

所以，四分之一颗牛油果就够了。

So so a quarter of an avocado Okay.

这些脂肪量足够供应一整餐，再加上几瓣核桃仁。

Is more than enough fat to for for an entire meal and just a few walnut halves.

所以真的不需要很多。

So it's really not much.

它只是在胃里形成一种乳化作用，帮助消化。

It just, creates this kind of emulsification in your stomach and and aids in digestion.

我们能让这些营养物质进入淋巴系统和血液循环。

We can get those nutrients into our lymph, into our bloodstream.

是的，并不需要太多就能获得这些益处。

And so, yeah, it does not take much, to get the benefit.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为我真的很糟糕。

Because I'm I'm very bad.

一旦我不限制脂肪摄入，情况就会变得很糟糕。

When I take the restriction off fats, it's it's terrible.

你知道，我妻子曾经说过，你得量着用橄榄油。

You know, my wife once said, like, you have to measure your olive oil.

我当时就说，不行。

And I was like, no.

这明明是一汤匙的量，结果都快接近四分之一杯了。

This is a tablespoon, and it turned it it was closer to a quarter cup.

你知道吗？

You know?

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我是说，那可是地球上热量密度最高的食物。

I mean, one I mean, that is the most calorically concentrated food on the planet.

一汤匙就有120卡路里。

120 calories in a single tablespoon.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。

Yeah.

所以没错。

So yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且你能获得超多能量。

And and you just get so much energy.

但对我来说，有件事让我特别害怕。

And and but there is something too for me where I was super scared.

很长一段时间里，我完全不吃碳水化合物。

For a long time, I was not eating carbohydrates at all.

好吧。

Okay.

然后我的体重就会停滞不前，我就会想，这是怎么回事？

And I would stall on my weight loss and be like, what is this?

接着我就会饿着自己，体重又下降了，但感觉非常痛苦。

And then I'd starve myself and lose weight again, but, like, be miserable.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我减少了脂肪摄入，开始允许自己吃碳水化合物。

And and then I lowered my fats, and I allowed carbohydrates.

但我发现碳水化合物对我来说真的不太好吃。

But I found that carbohydrates really, to me, don't taste good.

如果把披萨看作高碳水食物，实际上其中来自脂肪的能量可能相当甚至更多

If I think about a pizza as a carby food, the reality is there's probably equal or more energy coming from fat

来自脂肪。

From the fat.

对。

Right.

披萨。

Pizza.

你知道吗？

You know?

没错。

Right.

脂肪的克数可能更少，但净能量更多。

It might be less grams of fat, but net more energy.

对。

Right.

没错。

Right.

不

No.

对

Right.

因为每克的热量是两倍多

Because it's more than twice as many calories per gram.

对吧？

Right?

没错

Exactly.

是啊

Yeah.

这些都是我现在特别在意的事情

So these are all the things that I obsess over now.

而且，知道在蔬菜里加一点油脂是可以的甚至是必要的，这挺有意思的

And, you know, knowing that it's okay or necessary to have a little bit of fat with my veggies, that's fun.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

理想情况下应该来自天然食物。

Ideally from a whole foods.

对吧？

Right?

因为这样你还能获得那些食物本身的额外益处。

Because then you get the the additional benefit of those foods as well.

没错，就像吃橄榄本身而不是橄榄油那样。

Right, so like even olives instead of olive oil.

没错，但遗憾的是腌制过程会给橄榄添加过多的钠，所以我们今天真的应该把钠摄入量控制在1500毫克以内。这不是要给你增加压力，但尤其是如果你的血压不太理想的话。

Right, unfortunately the brining process adds a little too much sodium to the olives, so we really should try to keep down to fifteen hundred milligrams of sodium today, not to give you something else to stress about, but you know, particularly if your blood pressure isn't perfect.

所以你当然可以吃几颗橄榄，但如果你正在限制钠摄入（其实大家都应该这样），吃太多橄榄很容易就会让你超标。

And so you can certainly have few OLBs, but if you're on a sodium restricted diet, which you really should all should be on, it doesn't take too many OLBs to kind of push your foot over the edge.

那么这些就是能让我们逆转衰老的神奇法则了？

So these are the magical principles by which we can reverse age.

是谁在推动世界前进？

Who drives the world forward?

是那个掌握答案的人，还是提出正确问题的人？

The one with the answers or the one asking the right questions?

在沙特阿美，我们每天以提问'如何'开始。

At Aramco, we start every day by asking how.

创新如何助力为世界提供可靠能源？

How can innovation help deliver reliable energy to the world?

技术如何助力开发新材料以重塑城市？

How can technology help develop new materials to reshape cities?

合作如何帮助我们克服最大的挑战？

How can collaboration help us overcome the biggest challenges?

要找到答案，我们首先需要提出正确的问题。

To get to the answer, we first need to ask the right question.

搜索由'如何'驱动的阿美公司。

Search Aramco powered by how.

阿美是一家能源和化工公司，以石油和天然气生产为主要业务。

Aramco is an energy and chemicals company with oil and gas production as its primary business.

嗯，这些确实有些道理。

Well that these are certainly something.

是啊。

Yeah.

饮食无疑是核心部分。

Diet is certainly the the centerpiece.

我当然也会谈到衰老、睡眠、压力、社会联系等一系列因素。

I also of course talk about aging and slave and stress and social connection and all down the list.

但确实如此，人如其食，这是个好消息，因为这意味着我们拥有掌控权。

But, yeah, the it really is we are what we eat, which is good news because it means we have the power.

睡眠有多重要？

How important is sleep?

当我和人们交谈时，当他们问我为什么总是坚持不了节食计划时，我第一个问题总是：你睡眠怎么样？

I I I when when I talk to people, when people ask me what I can't seem to stick to a diet, the first thing I always ask is how do you sleep?

因为我亲身体会到，当我晚上没睡好时，饥饿感会加倍，而且几乎无法做出在充足睡眠时能轻松做出的决定。

Because I know for myself, when I don't get a good night's sleep, I'm twice as hungry and almost incapable of making a decision that I would have made on a good night's sleep.

没错，正是这样。

No, exactly.

人们不仅会在睡眠不足时吃得更多，而且会吃得更不健康。

Not only do people eat more when they're sleep deprived, but they eat worse.

他们会摄入更多高糖高脂的垃圾食品。

They eat more sugar free fatty foods.

就算面前是自助餐，他们也会选择最糟糕的食物。

You put them in front of a buffet and they choose the worst foods.

他们似乎连意志力都和其他能量一起耗尽了。

They just seem to their kind of willpower seems sapped along with the rest of their energy.

睡眠另一个至关重要的方面是免疫功能。

Another critical important piece about sleep is immune function.

实际上你可以将感冒病毒滴入通宵熬夜或正常睡眠者的鼻子里进行随机对照实验。

So you can actually drip the cold virus into the nose of people randomized after an all nighter or not.

而那些睡眠不足的人患感冒的几率实际上要高出五倍。

And those who who were sleep deprived five times more likely actually come down with a cold.

所以当然，感染率是百分之百全面覆盖。

So of course, there's one hundred percent infection across the board.

每个人都感染了，因为他们有鼻子，但大多数睡眠充足的人甚至都没察觉。

Every single person got infected because they had the nose, but most of those who had enough sleep didn't even know.

我是说，他们没有任何症状，因为他们的身体完全能够压制病毒，甚至都没发病。

I mean, they didn't experience any symptoms because their body was so able to clobber it down, didn't even come down with anything.

所以我们没有类似数据，因为用更严重的病原体如流感和肺炎做实验是不道德的，但这让我们了解到规律睡眠的力量有多大——即使是疫苗效力方面，充足睡眠也比每周少睡几小时效果更好。

So we don't have similar data just because it's unethical with more serious pathogens like influenza and pneumonia, but it gives us a sense of how much, how powerful it is just getting regular amounts of sleep can get also better efficacy in terms of vaccine effectiveness after sufficient sleep versus cutting down even a few hours a week.

所以，是的，这很重要。

So, yeah, so it's important.

尽管睡眠是否在长寿中起作用实际上存在争议。

Although it's actually controversial whether sleep plays a role in longevity.

但建议是每天七到八小时。

So, but the recommendation is seven to eight hours a day.

怎么可能不影响呢？既然睡眠在所有其他方面都是如此重要的因素这一点毫无争议。是的。

How could it not, though, if if it's not controversial that sleep is such an important kind of ingredient in all this other stuff Yeah.

那么，它不会影响心血管疾病的风险。

Well, so it doesn't affect cardiovascular disease risk.

而心脏病目前仍是男性和女性的头号杀手。

And so heart disease is by far the number one killer of men and women.

你想知道某样东西是否真能延长寿命，如果它对心脏没有帮助，不能改善动脉功能，那就很难说它能延长寿命。

So if you want to know if something really improves longevity, like if it doesn't if it doesn't help the heart, doesn't improve artery function, you know, it's really hard to cut it down.

举个例子，即使地球上所有癌症都被治愈了，整体预期寿命也只能增加三年。

So for example, even if all cancer across the board on planet Earth was cured, it would only add three years of life expectancy overall.

这是因为，你知道，如果你不死于癌症，就会因为心脏病发作而倒下。

And it's because of, you know, if you don't die of cancer, you just got dropped out of a heart attack.

没错。

Right.

所以癌症现在是我们的第二大死因。

So cancer is now our second leading cause of death.

这就是为什么，你知道，心脏问题才是关键。

And so that's why, you know, know, heart Right.

健康饮食起着如此重要的作用

Healthy diets plays such an important

但饮食不是心脏病的主要诱因之一吗？

But isn't diet one of the primary causes to heart disease?

哦，绝对是。

Oh, absolutely.

所以这就是为什么饮食在延长寿命、减少主要死因和降低发病率方面如此重要。

So that's why diet is so important in terms of longevity, in terms of reducing the leading causes of death, in terms of reducing morbidity.

而像睡眠这样影响免疫功能的事物，虽然肺炎是十大死因之一，但其影响程度不足以显著改变整体死亡率。

And whereas something like sleep, which affects immune function and pneumonia is one of the top 10 causes of death, it doesn't reach high enough to actually to sway all cause mortality overall.

对。

Right.

我觉得这只是某些人用来逃避推广良好睡眠习惯的借口。

I feel like this is just a loophole that somebody's using to not promote good sleep hygiene.

我就知道，那你怎么赚钱呢？

I knew and how do you make money?

你知道吗？

You know?

我想你在...赚钱

I guess you make money in

嗯，我是说...对

Well, I mean well yeah.

是的

Yeah.

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

你...是的。

You yeah.

可能在安眠药行业和那些'这是我的助眠小工具'的领域里更赚钱。

You may there's probably more money to be made in the in the kinda sleeping pill industry, and the here's my sleeping gadget.

对。

Right.

哦，我

Oh, I'm

干脆整晚别睡。

just stay up all night.

我们拥有能随时连接到地球上其他人的设备，老实说我和别人一样离不开它们，但我知道这正是影响我孩子睡眠的元凶。

We have devices that are connected to every other human on Earth that are we keep with us at all times that, you know, I I'm as guilty as the next guy, but I know this is what disrupts my kid's sleep.

哦，没错。

Oh, yeah.

比如手机，是啊。

At phones, like Yeah.

电视。

TV.

然后我们还有用咖啡因来掩饰倦意的东西。

And then we have things that that mask our our lethargy in caffeine.

在美国你每走十步就会碰到含咖啡因的饮品，连他们卖的棕色水都是。

You can't go 10 feet in America without bumping into something that's caffeinated, including your brown water that they're selling.

没错。

Right.

对。

Right.

不。

No.

不。

No.

确实如此。

Exactly.

而且这确实关系到挽救生命，你知道，睡眠不足在车祸等事故中扮演了重要角色。

And and it certainly has to do mean, in terms of saving lives, you know, sleep deprivation plays a serious role in car accidents, for example.

没错。

Right.

所以我的意思是，确实存在一些途径，睡眠不足可能直接导致你过早离世。

And so, I mean, there are certainly are pathways by which not getting enough sleep could literally lead to your early demise.

但从人口规模来看，似乎影响不大。

But just on a population scale, doesn't seem to move the needle.

我认为如果你观察那些难以坚持特定饮食的人群数量，并将其与他们的睡眠状况相关联，我觉得说服人们'改善睡眠'会非常容易。

I think if you look at if you look at the amount of people that struggle with adherence to a specific diet and you do some correlation with how they're sleeping, I I think it's a very easy sell to say, like, fix your sleep.

你明白吗？

You know?

那是

That's a

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

不。

No.

健康饮食更容易做到。

It's easier to eat healthier.

而且据推测——虽然我还没看到数据——那些不那么疲惫的人更有可能保持规律锻炼。

And presumably, although I haven't seen the data, presumably people who are, you know, are less exhausted or they are more likely to do a regular exercise routine.

对吧？

Right?

所以你可以想象，也许这就是他们拿起香烟的原因，因为他们太累了需要那点提神。

So you can imagine also and look, maybe that's why they're picking up the cigarette because they need that little boost because they're so so tired.

没错，你可以想象这些生活方式因素是如何紧密交织在一起的。

So, yeah, you can imagine how a lot of these lifestyle factors really, really come together.

是啊。

Yeah.

还有什么其他因素？

What what else?

还有哪些因素能维持这种差异？哦对了，最近我看到有史以来第一次，美国女性的平均寿命正式超过了男性。

What are some other things that that will keep it oh, recently, I read, I think it's for the first time ever that women in America now officially live longer than men.

噢，这个现象在人类有记载以来的所有族群研究中都存在。

Oh, that we have they have for in every population ever studied since time immemorial.

好吧。

Okay.

那她们最近是不是又额外增加了六个月寿命？

Well, then didn't they just get a a six month boost recently?

她们有增长吗？

Did they get a boost?

我记得男性平均寿命刚刚缩短了六个月。

I believe men just on average lost six months of lifespan.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

部分原因是阿片类药物危机，这似乎对男性影响更大。

Part of that is the opioid epidemic, which seems to to preferentially affect men.

是的，预期寿命在2014年达到顶峰，然后在美国首次出现下降趋势。

Yeah, life expectancy maxed out in 2014, and then started to decline for the first time in U.

S。

S.

历史。

History.

这主要是由于肥胖流行病，我们首次养育了一代平均寿命比父母更短的孩子。

And that was primarily due to the obesity epidemic where we were raising for the first time generation of children living on average shorter lives than their parents.

而这还是在新冠疫情之前，它已经让我们的预期寿命缩短了大约两年。

And this was before COVID, and knocked about two years off our life expectancy.

所以，我们还有很多工作要做才能让情况好转。

So, we got a lot of kind of we got a lot of work to do to boost us back up.

但其中大部分其实都在我们的掌控之中。

But most of that really is within our control.

所以这就是，你知道的，我想通过我的工作推动的好消息。

And so that's, you know, the good news I want to push along with all my work.

但其中我们能掌控的方面并不是巨大的盈利点，所以全球或国家层面都没有大力推动。

But the the the aspect of it with which is within our control is not a huge moneymaker, so there's no global push or national push for it.

是啊。

Yeah.

不幸的是，没错。

Unfortunately, right.

他们，他们，真的真的真的不够。

They they, there's there's there's there's really not enough.

我是说，当然，与那些花在让人们坐在沙发上吃冰淇淋上的钱相比，这简直微不足道。

I mean, certainly, it pales in comparison to the money that's being spent to, you know, get people to, you know, sit on the couch and, and, eat ice cream.

对

Right.

是啊

Yeah.

昨晚我遇到了一件特别随机的事

Last night, I had a a very random thing happen.

有个女人带着一大袋麦当劳来敲我的门

A woman came to my door with a big bag of McDonald's.

我当时就在想，我这是生活在什么噩梦里，居然有个陌生人递给我一大袋麦当劳？

And I and I was like, what is this nightmare I'm living in where a stranger is presenting me with a big bag full of McDonald's food?

而且麦当劳...我是个清醒的人，但食物这东西你没法保持清醒。

And I and, like, McDonald's like, I'm a sober person, but you can't be sober from food.

所以我对某些东西设了防线，保持戒断。

So I have, like, guardrails about certain things I am abstinent from.

麦当劳基本就是其中之一。

McDonald's is pretty much one of them.

比如，我不碰麦当劳的东西。

Like, I don't I don't mess with McDonald's.

这是个好政策，确实不错。

It's it's a good that's a good policy.

是啊。

Yeah.

结果就有个女人试图在我家门口递给我这个，我当时就想，这是什么情况？

And here's a woman just trying to present me at my front door, and I was like, what what is this?

这简直太可怕了。

This is like a horrible thing.

你知道吗？

You know?

如果你，我同样会感到惊恐。

If you had a big bag of booze, I would be equally horrified.

没错。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

发生什么事了？

What's happening?

她是个Postmates送货员，只是有我的号码但走错了街道。

And she was a a Postmates delivery person who just had my number but was on the wrong street.

所以她只是找错了房子。

So she was she's just come to the wrong house.

真有趣。

Funny.

我当时就觉得，这也太离谱了。

And I was like, this is this is so crazy.

太魔幻了。

Surreal.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我在家基本不看电视，只有在酒店时才会打开电视，所以平时也看不到那些广告。

And and I don't see commercials outside of, like, the when I'm in a hotel and I just turn on TV because we don't watch TV in my house like that.

但那些广告基本上全是药品和食品，要么就是关于药品食品的集体诉讼。

But it's all drugs and food, you know, for the most part or class action lawsuits about drugs and food.

你说得对。

You Exactly.

不过确实有很多工作亟待完成。

But there does seem to be a lot of work that needs to be done.

没错。

Yeah.

要知道，我们过去对自己的饮食环境还能有更好的掌控。

You know, we used to be able to have better control of our food environments.

但我觉得，你看，新冠疫情本可以成为一个转机的。

But I mean, and you thought, look, COVID could have been a blessing.

突然间，你再也不用每天早晨经过那家甜甜圈店了，那时你对饮食环境还有更多掌控。

All of a sudden, you're not walking in front of the, you know, donut store every morning where you have more control over your food environment.

但随后出现了Uber Eats和Instacart这类服务，突然间所有垃圾食品都能直接送到你家门口。

But then along comes like Uber Eats and Instacart, and all of a sudden, you can get all the crap literally, know, to your door.

听着，你肯定会吃掉那些饼干。

Excuse, you're gonna eat the cookies.

但如果没饼干，等你饿极了，连那个该死的苹果也会吃掉的，对吧？

But there's no cookies, you're get hungry enough, you're gonna eat that damn apple, right?

是啊。

Yeah.

但是，希望那些垃圾食品还要花上十五分钟才能送到你门口这个事实——你知道的，这种延迟足以成为一道屏障，让人们继续保持健康饮食。关键在于控制你的饮食环境，因为我们天生就有对生活中某些刺激物的生理渴望。

But, and so hopefully the fact that it still may take fifteen minutes for some crap to get to your door, you know, the the, you know, that it's enough of a a barrier that people still eat healthy, but it's really about controlling your food environment because we have these natural biological urges for you know, kind of stimulants in our lives.

所以我们真的需要避免把这些东西放在自己面前。

And so we just really need to have to not put them in front of ourselves.

没错。

Yeah.

这确实变得很复杂，你知道，因为我在美国通过戒断取得了成功，但几乎每个商业点都有食物。

And and that becomes really you know, because I've had success with abstinence in America, it becomes really complicated because there is food at every almost every point of commerce.

不能去

Can't go

任何地方。

anywhere.

没错。

No.

不。

No.

你在家具店里。

You're in a furniture store.

收银台旁边有糖果。

There's candy at the checkout.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

无处不在。

Everywhere.

太疯狂了。

It's wild.

赚大钱。

Makes money.

巨额利润。

Huge amounts of money.

没错。

Right.

对。

Right.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且你知道吗，甚至到了这种程度——我读到可口可乐公司进入大型场所比如音乐厅时，他们直接免费提供产品。

And and then, you know, even to the point where I read that Coca Cola, when they get into some big space like a concert hall, they're just giving them the actual product.

他们可能会收取杯子的费用，但汽水本身是免费的，因为生产成本实在太低了。

They might charge them for cups, but the actual soda is free because it's just it's just so inexpensive to produce.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们很便宜。

They're cheap.

全是利润。

It's all profit.

对吧？

Right?

难怪他们是全球最大的企业之一。

No wonder they're one of the biggest corporations on the planet.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们太成功了。

They're crushing it.

他们正在压榨我们。

They're crushing us.

嗯，格雷戈尔医生，这真是值得深思。

Well, doctor Gregor, this is a lot to think about.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

我很感激。

I appreciate it.

我很享受我们的对话，期待下一次交流。

And I'm have enjoyed our conversations, and I look forward to the next one.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

我也很期待。

Looking forward to it.

继续保持好状态。

Keep up the good work.

你也是。

You too.

现在该和佩姬确认一下了。

And now for the check-in with Paige.

嗨，佩姬。

Hi, Paige.

你好。

Hi.

最近怎么样？

How's it going?

还行。

Okay.

也就那样吧。

So okay.

上次我们聊的时候，你还在权衡各种选择。

When we last spoke, you were weighing options.

我们聊了些事情。

We talked about stuff.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

然后我们...我想我告诉过你。

Then we we I think I told you.

我们确实确认过，我告诉过你选择了使用Mounjaro，也就是替西帕肽。

We did check-in, and I told you that I chose to take Mounjaro, which is trizepatide.

对。

Right.

而且，嗯，基本上，所以我昨天刚打了

And, yeah, basically, so so I just yesterday, took

你等了多久？

How long had you wait.

我们上次联系时，你服用它多久了？

When we checked in, how long had you had you taken it yet?

是的。

Yes.

我已经服用了。

I had taken it.

我们简单聊过。

We talked briefly.

大概有两三周了吧。

It was, like, I think I'd been on it maybe two or three weeks.

我记不太清了。

I can't totally remember.

好的。

Okay.

很好。

Good.

现在已经满六周了。

Now I've been on it a full six weeks.

昨天刚进入第七周。

I just started my seventh week yesterday.

我打了第七

I took a seventh

针。

shot.

所以就像是，我我我研究过这个。

So it's like, I I I looked into it.

上面说它立即见效，但我后来又看到其他资料说需要几周时间，可能那是指司美格鲁肽。

It said it worked immediately, but then I saw other things that were like, it will take a number of weeks, but maybe that was semaglutide.

我我经常把它们搞混。

I I often mix them up.

嗯，这很有趣。

Well, it's interesting.

是啊。

Yeah.

我有个朋友开始用司美格鲁肽了。

I have a friend who started semaglutide.

他住在伦敦，他跟我说他被告知需要一段时间才能开始见效。

He lives in London, and he was telling me that that he was told it takes a little while to to start this.

我的经历嘛，显然我只能说说自己的体验。

My experience, obviously, I can only talk about my experience.

它立即见效，我完全不觉得饿。

It started working immediately where I was not hungry.

我没有任何食欲。

I had no cravings.

幸运的是，我并没有经历太多不良反应。

I, you know, luckily did not experience a great deal of adverse side effects.

很多人抱怨说会有严重的恶心或感觉非常难受。

A lot of people complain of, like, very intense nausea or feeling terrible.

我就没有那种情况。

Like, I didn't have that.

偶尔会有一点不适，但真的不算什么问题。

I had a little bit here and there, but, like, really not a problem.

而且它确实在

And it did in the

我是说，我听到这个就在想，谁不会偶尔恶心呢？

I mean, I I literally think I hear that, and I'm like, who doesn't get nauseous sometimes?

就是，我觉得对我来说不是每天都会这样，而且也不至于让人崩溃。

Like, I feel like that's not it's not daily for me, but, like, I mean and it's not crippling.

但你知道，我有时去高强度锻炼后也会感到恶心。

But, you know, I go and I work out hard, and I'm nauseous sometimes.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。

Yeah.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我知道有些人可能会

I know some people can have

偶尔会便秘或腹泻。

occasionally get stopped up or get loose stools.

就像，这就是生活，

Like, this is like life,

不是吗？

isn't it?

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

嗯，我觉得，是的，人们真的很容易陷入疯狂的研究中，当你阅读所有人说的各种观点时，这就是为什么你自己的经验很重要。

Well, I think, yeah, people people really like, you can go down crazy rabbit holes when you read all the stuff everyone has to say, and that's why, like, your own experience is important.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

不过，是的，我没有遇到任何不好的情况。

But, yeah, I didn't experience anything bad.

到现在也没有。

I still haven't.

头四周我就减掉了15磅。

In the first four weeks, I lost 15 pounds.

哇。

Wow.

是啊。

Yeah.

不过你也知道，我觉得刚开始节食时总会很快减掉不少体重。

Granted, you know, I think in the beginning of any diet, I've always lost, you know, a good little bit right away.

对吧？

Right?

那是水分。

It's water.

是这个原因。

It's this.

是那个原因。

It's that.

这些都是，你知道的，浮肿的部分。

It's all the, you know, puffiness.

就像，接下来的两周里，我想大概六周时间，我又减掉了三磅半。

Like, and now in my in the next two weeks, I guess, so, like, six weeks, I think I lost another three and a half.

一开始，你知道，各种心理活动就会出现，比如我会想，哦不。

And I at first, you know, the all those kind of, like, mental things happen where I'm like, oh, no.

我体重减得不够快。

I'm not losing weight fast enough.

吧啦吧啦。

Blah blah blah.

就像，我可以保留所有过去的疯狂经历，但我一直在努力活在当下。

Like, all the old past craziness I can have, but I've been really working hard on just here I am today.

没关系。

It's okay.

慢一点其实更好，你知道，从长远来看。

Slower is actually better, like, you know, for the longevity of it all.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was just like, okay.

不错。

Cool.

所以我一直做得很好，没有对那个数字过于纠结。

So I've been doing very well at not getting, you know, nuts about the number.

是的。

Yeah.

我一直很努力地坚持每天吃三餐。

I've been working very hard at eating three meals a day.

我说努力坚持每天吃三餐的意思是，无论怎样都要吃三顿营养均衡的餐食——因为说实话，如果放任自己，这个剂量会让你根本不觉得饿。

When I say working hard at eating three meals a day, I mean, like, three balanced meals whether I'm because because honestly, if I'm just left this makes you not hungry.

所以我现在依然保持着最低剂量。

So it's like and I'm still on the lowest dose of it.

我还没有增加用药剂量。

I didn't go up in my dose yet.

所以就是你，我根本不会想到食物。

So it just you I just don't think about food.

我不会想到吃东西。

I don't think about eating.

我对任何食物都没有渴望。

I don't crave anything.

所以我一直坚持每天吃三餐。

So I've been eating three meals a day.

当然，当我旅行或不在家的日常作息中时，这个习惯会有些波动，但这基本就是我的常态。

Definitely, when I've traveled or, you know, not been in my routine at home, that kind of fluctuates a bit, but that's sort of how I am normally.

另外我还给自己定了一些小规矩。

And then just to say, I've made little rules for myself.

比如，我试着不再害怕碳水化合物，因为我过去的所有饮食建议都是远离碳水。

Like, I'm trying not to be scared of carbohydrates because all my past diets is like, stay away from carbs.

你懂吗？

You know?

所有这些，我尝试过世界上所有的节食方法。

All these, I've done every diet in the world.

所以，是的。

And so Yeah.

我一直保持着冷静、平衡的状态。

I've been like, cool, balanced.

如果我吃碳水化合物，我会确保同时摄入蛋白质。

If I eat a carb, I make sure I have protein with it.

我不会让自己无缘无故就啃一片面包。

I'm not letting myself just have a piece of bread for no fucking reason.

懂吗？

You know?

总之，我正在努力改变行为习惯，培养良好习惯，比如多喝水这些事情。

Like so because anyway, so I'm working hard on changing my behaviors, on having, you know, just good habits, drinking water, all these things.

刚过完感恩节，这是我人生中第一次没有在感恩节时想着‘天啊’的念头。

Just had Thanksgiving, and it was the first Thanksgiving in my life where I wasn't thinking about, oh god.

如果我吃太多了，哦，我接下来该吃什么？

If I eat too much, oh, what am I gonna eat?

我正在节食。

I'm on a diet.

我只是吃了正常量的食物，这感觉，你知道，还挺不可思议的。

I just ate a normal amount of food, and I it was, you know, it was pretty wild.

所以我内心有一部分觉得，天啊。

So there's part of me that feels like, oh my god.

我在作弊。

I'm cheating.

我有这个神奇的，像是，让我不再渴望食物的东西，但这就是它的作用。

I have this amazing, like, thing that's making me not crave stuff, but that's what it's for.

这就是我的现状，我今天早上在获取药物的应用上给我的咨询师发了消息，就是想告诉他，嘿。

So that's where I'm at, and I wrote to my my counselor guy this morning on the the app where I got it and all that just to say, hey.

这是我的情况，那两周后我需要新处方时会发生什么？

Here's where I'm at, and what happens in two weeks when I need another prescription?

我的剂量会增加还是维持现状？

Am I gonna go up or stay where I'm at?

所以情况就是这样。

So that's that's where it's at.

哇，老兄。

Wow, dude.

太疯狂了。

That's wild.

我感觉我...我不知道。

I feel like I I I don't know.

对我来说，我担心的是自己而不是你，因为听起来你做得很好，该做的都做了。

I feel like, for me, my worry would be for myself, not my worry for you, because it sounds like you're doing everything you should be doing, which is great.

我担心的是，这可能会让我想吃啥就吃啥还不长胖。

For me, my worry would be, like, this would be a way for me to eat whatever I want and not gain weight.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do do you know what I mean?

是的。

Yes.

嗯，完全同意。

Well, totally.

而且我知道，这可能是我过去做过的事。

And I know that that's, you know, that's what I may have done in the past.

但因为我现在的信念非常坚定，我不想再重蹈覆辙，也就是减肥又反弹，减了又增。

But because I feel so strongly right now of, like, I don't want to do this again, meaning lose weight, gain it back, lose weight, gain it.

我就是不想再经历一次了。

I just don't want to do it again.

而且我觉得，你知道，指南上说不能吃过多高脂肪食物、油炸食品这些。

And also, I feel like, you know, it says you're not supposed to eat extra high fatty foods, fried things, this and that.

所以我并非做得完美无缺。

So it's not that I've been perfect.

你知道，感恩节期间我们正在公路旅行，去看望我丈夫的家人。

You know, we were on a road trip for Thanksgiving, seeing my husband's family and driving down.

我们进进出出地停在那里，因为那是唯一可以停车的地方。

We stopped it in and out because that was the place you could stop.

所以我吃了一个汉堡。

And so I ate one hamburger.

我没加奶酪，但我吃了

I didn't have cheese on it, but I ate

你吃一个汉堡就饱了？

And you got full from a hamburger?

我吃一个汉堡和大概四分之一的薯条就饱了。

I got full from a hamburger and, like, a quarter of the fries.

你知道吗？

You know?

看，这他妈太疯狂了，老兄。

See, that's fucking crazy, dude.

我做不到

I can't

比方说

let's say

这里有几个注意事项。

a couple of caveats here.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

在我们心目中，In N Out难道不是快餐汉堡店中最健康的吗？

In our minds, isn't In N Out like the healthiest of the fast food hamburger places?

确实是。

It is.

就像，看到他们在切西红柿和土豆这些，你就会觉得，哦，这就像个有机绿洲。

Like, the fact that you see them slicing their tomatoes and their potatoes and stuff, you just go like, oh, this is like an organic oasis.

你知道吗？

You know?

但谁知道呢？

Which who fucking knows?

这些说法其实都不靠谱。

Any of that's true.

但对我来说，In N Out就像是个健康版的选择。

But for me, in my head, I think of In N Out as, like, a healthy version.

我也是这么想的。

Like Me too.

麦当劳就是最底层的转基因农药食品，所有东西都是冷冻卡车运来的。

McDonald's is bottom of the barrel GMO pesticides just like everything's trucked in frozen.

没错。

Yep.

而In N Out简直像是嬉皮士在给你做食物。

And In N Out is like almost hippies are serving you food.

你懂我意思吧？

You know?

是啊。

Yeah.

所以，在这方面做得不错。

So, like, good job on that.

就是说，让我们表扬一下这个。

Like, let's let's say good job on that.

其次，我记得有一次去In N Out，那是在九十年代，在我真正了解它之前。

And then secondly, I remember once going to an In N Out before I'd gone, before I'd really so this was the nineties.

那是在5号公路附近，大概在魔术山那边或之前的位置。

It was on the 5, like, around Magic Mountain or before Magic Mountain.

如果有人知道那地方在哪，那大概就是特洪山口了。

If anybody knows where that is, it's like Tejon Pass.

你简直就在鸟不拉屎的荒郊野外。

You're in the middle of fucking nowhere.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后这里还有一片绿洲。

And then there's this oasis off.

你从很远的地方就能看到In N Out的红白招牌，它像麦加圣地一样闪耀着光芒。

You see it from a real far distance, the red and white of In N Out, and it's glowing like a mecca.

然后我走了进去。

And I go in there.

我当时没有下车，因为那时候我绝不会把车单独留在外面。

I I didn't leave my car because I I wouldn't leave my car back then.

我点了两个双层汉堡、一份大薯条，后来还跟他们吵了一架，因为他们的奶昔分量太小了。

And I ordered two double doubles, a large fry, and then I I got into a fight with them because I wanted because their milkshakes are tiny.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

这再次说明他们很注重健康饮食。

Which is again where you're like, they're health conscious.

他们只供应这种8盎司的小杯奶昔。

They serve these little eight ounce milkshakes.

对。

Right.

我当时就说，不行。

And I was like, no.

不行。

No.

我要你拿个大号饮料杯，大概有50盎司的那种。

I want you to take a large fountain drink, which is probably 50 ounces.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我要你往里面装满四杯或五杯奶昔，我会付五杯的钱。

And I want you to fill it with four milkshakes or five milkshakes, and I'll pay for all five.

那里的员工就说，不行。

And the person there was like, no.

我不会那么做的。

I'm not gonna do that.

然后我说，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

那我怎么把五杯奶昔装进一个杯子里呢？

Well, how do I get five milkshakes in one cup?

他就说，你可以买五杯奶昔，我再卖你一个大杯饮料。

And he was like, I guess you can buy five milkshakes, and I can sell you a large drink.

然后我说，行吧。

And I was like, okay.

只要别往大杯里装任何东西就行。

Just don't put anything in the large drink.

结果他连这都不肯。

And he wouldn't even do that.

他还说，不行。

And he was like, no.

不行。

No.