谈书论道：收入心理学

今天的《动物精神谈投资》节目由Neos Investments赞助播出。

Today's Animal Spirits Talk Your Book is brought to you by Neos Investments.

请访问neosfunds.com了解更多关于他们全套基于期权的收益型ETF产品。

Go to neosfunds.com to learn more about their whole suite of options based income ETFs.

网址是neosfunds.com，neos，neosfunds.com获取更多信息。

That's neosfunds.com, neos, neosfunds.com for more.

欢迎收听《动物精神》，一档关于市场、生活和投资的节目。

Welcome to animal spirits, a show about markets, life, and investing.

跟随Michael Batnick和Ben Carlson一起探讨他们正在阅读、写作和观察的内容。

Join Michael Batnick and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing, and watching.

Michael和Ben表达的所有观点仅代表其个人意见，不代表Ritholt财富管理的观点。

All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Ritholt's Wealth Management.

本播客仅供信息参考，不应作为任何投资决策的依据。

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any investment decisions.

Ritholt财富管理的客户可能持有本播客中讨论的证券头寸。

Clients of Ritholt's Wealth Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.

欢迎收听迈克尔和本主持的《动物精神》节目。

Welcome to Animal Spirits with Michael and Ben.

在今天的《畅谈你的书》环节中，我们将与特洛伊·凯茨对话。

On today's Talk Your Book, we talk to Troy Cates.

特洛伊是Neos投资公司的联合创始人兼管理合伙人。

Troy is the cofounder, managing partner, Neos Investments.

我们在节目中讨论了一个有趣的话题：即使在牛市里，仍有大量资金涌入这些基于期权的收益基金。

We got into an interesting topic on the show just about how even in a bull market, there's all this money pouring into these option based income funds.

市面上有各种各样的基金，但人们就是喜欢这种稳定收益的特性确实值得关注。

And there's a lot of different funds out there, but there's something to the fact that people just like that that regular income.

他们喜欢在牛市中也能够获得收益带来的安全感。

They like the the safety they feel from the yield even in a bull market.

所以我可以想象

So I can imagine

即便是年轻人。

that Even young people.

我们听到年轻听众使用这个产品，他们大多明白自己在做什么。

We've heard from young listeners that use this, and they understand what they're getting into for the most part.

所以我不会再感到惊讶了。

So I won't be surprised again.

人们热爱收益。

People love income.

就这么简单。

It's that simple.

但假设我们遇到熊市或市场横盘时期。

But let's say we have a a bear market or just a period where the market goes sideways.

这类产品的受欢迎程度会进一步提升。

These things are gonna take off even more in popularity.

老兄，如果市场横盘，这些东西会一飞冲天。

Dude, if the market goes sideways, these things are going to soar.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为这确实对他们来说是个非常有利的环境。

Because that that's kind of a good it's a really good environment for them.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yeah.

这意味着他们不会落后，还能将平淡的回报转化为收益。

That means they're not trailing and transforming flat returns into income.

还不错。

Not bad.

对。

Right.

今天我们和Neos的Troy聊了聊他们不同的基金产品。

So so we talked to Neos today and Troy about their different funds.

他们有针对标普500、纳斯达克100和罗素2000的基金。

They got funds on the S and P five hundred and the Nasdaq one hundred and the Russell two thousand.

他们有一个对冲版本，采用类似领口策略的方式。

They have a hedged version of this where they use, like, a collar.

综上所述，以下是我们与Neos投资公司的特洛伊·凯茨的对话。

So leading to all that, here's our talk with Troy Cates from Neos Investments.

特洛伊，欢迎来到节目。

Troy, welcome to the show.

谢谢今天邀请我。

Thanks for having me today.

好的。

Alright.

我们之前采访过你的同事加勒特，但对于不了解的听众，请简单介绍一下Neos投资公司，你们是谁，做什么业务，以及公司的核心方向。

We talked to your colleague Garrett before, but for those who are unaware, give us a little background on Neos Investments, who you are, what you do, and kind of the focus of the firm.

当然。

Sure.

加勒特和我都是Neos投资公司的联合创始人兼管理合伙人。

So Garrett and I are both co founders and managing partners of Neos Investments.

我们是一家专注于合成期权领域的ETF发行商。

We are an ETF issuer that focuses on the synthetic option space.

我们主要研究期权收益，以及如何以税务高效的方式为客户实现收益。

So really looking at option income and how to bring it out in a tax efficient manner to clients.

我们旗下有13只ETF产品。

We have 13 ETFs in our lineup.

这13只ETF管理的资产规模刚刚超过150亿美元。

We have just over 15,000,000,000 in assets across those 13 ETFs.

我们还有多只产品正在注册中，希望在未来几个月内推出。

And we have a number more in registration, which we hope to get out over the next few months.

Troy，你们如何与竞争对手区分开来？

Troy, how do you differentiate yourself versus the competition?

因为这个领域有很多正规机构，也有不少我称之为'不良从业者'的公司，他们过度承诺，利用投资者可能不了解的分配收益率来牟利。

Because there's a lot of legitimate people in the space and there's a lot of, I guess what I would call bad actors, people that are fund companies that are over promising, taking advantage of distribution yields that investors might not understand.

你们如何去伪存真？

How do you separate the wheat from the chaff?

这是个很好的问题，因为这个领域的竞争确实非常激烈。

Now, it's a good question because there is a lot of competition in the space.

仅仅回顾过去几年，这个领域就已经发展得如此迅速。

And even just thinking over the past couple of years, the space has grown so much.

似乎几乎每家拥有ETF的公司都想在期权收益领域推出产品。

And it seems like almost everybody who has an ETF wants to bring out something in the option income space.

对我们而言，我们真正专注于核心资产配置，无论是纳斯达克100指数、标普500指数、固定收益、比特币、黄金还是房地产，我们都在这些基准指数之上构建期权策略。

So for us, we really focus on your core allocations, you know, whether it is the Nasdaq 100, the S and P 500, fixed income, Bitcoin, gold, real estate, and we build option strategies on top of those reference, you know, indexes.

以纳斯达克100为例，我们既有高收益产品，也有对冲型股票收益产品。

So thinking about the Nasdaq 100, we have a high income product, and we have a hedged equity income product.

我们真正希望围绕投资组合的这些核心部分来构建产品，最终目标是成为解决方案提供商，持续细分资产配置的版图。

So we really wanna build around those core parts of your portfolio, and we really just wanna be a solutions provider in the end and continue to slice up the asset allocation pie.

无论是股票、固定收益还是另类投资，我们都在不断细分领域并提供更多解决方案。

So whether it's equities, fixed income, alternatives, and just keep slicing that up and offering more solutions.

我们的核心理念是：既要确保向股东提供合理的收益分配，同时首要目标是以最节税的方式实现这一点。

And the way we look at it really is we want to obviously have a decent distribution that goes out to shareholder, but we want to do it in the most tax efficient manner, number one.

此外，我们希望在长期运作中，确保您能参与到基础参考资产的投资中。

And we also want to, you know, over time, we want to make sure that you can participate with the underlying reference asset.

我们不想仅仅限制您的投资组合，给您分配收益，却让您无法参与纳斯达克100或标普500等指数的增长。

We don't want to just cap your portfolio, send you out a distribution, and you don't participate with say the Nasdaq 100 or the S and P 500.

我们希望您能够参与其中。

We want you to be able to participate with that.

因此我们要确保这些派发的收益能够获得长期总回报的支持。

So we wanna make sure that those distributions going out can be supported by the total return over time.

能描述一下我认为这个产品是什么吗？

Can describe what I think the product is?

告诉我这样理解是否正确。

And tell me if this makes All right.

如果您在某个参考指数上实施期权收益策略，那么几乎可以确定，在其他条件相同的情况下，比如在上涨市场中，您的收益将无法与指数同步。

If you are doing an options based strategy on one of the reference indexes that is distributing income, Almost by definition, you should expect to have all else equal, let's just say in a rising market, you will not keep pace with the index.

如果纳斯达克100指数上涨20%，对吧。

If the Nasdaq 100 is up 20%, alright.

这并不意味着你会获得20%的收益。

This is not you're not gonna get 20%.

也许你能得到18%。

Maybe you get 18.

但你实际上是在将具有正向预期回报的资产类别的收益结构，转化为收入流，同时不会牺牲太多以致遭受重创。

But what you are doing is you are transforming the return structure of an asset class with positive expected returns into an income stream without giving up so much that you're getting destroyed.

这不像纳斯达克上涨20%而你只涨12%那样。

It's not like the Nasdaq would be up 20 and you're up 12.

我理解得对吗？

Do I have that about right?

是的。

Yeah.

你说到点子上了。

You you hit the nail on the head.

我认为很多人并不明白选择这类产品需要放弃什么。

I think a lot of people don't understand what they're giving up by being in one of these products.

你实际上放弃了上涨潜力。

You're really giving up the the upside.

你知道自己的下行风险是什么。

You know what your downside is.

在这个例子中，你仍然投资于那些纳斯达克100的成分股。

You're still invested in those Nasdaq 100 names in this example.

是的，在持平或下跌的市场中，你应该通过获得的收入来跑赢大盘。

And yes, in the flat to down markets, you should outperform by the amount of income you're bringing in.

但在上涨市场中，尤其是过去几年我们看到的那种更强劲的牛市，你将无法跟上步伐。

But in the up markets, especially the bigger, you know, stronger bull markets we've seen over the past couple years, you're not gonna be able to keep pace with that.

不过没错，我们希望确保在我们推出的产品中尽可能多地抓住上涨机会。

But yes, we wanna make sure we're capturing as much of the upside as we can in the products that we put out.

我认为当前环境以及这些期权ETF的快速增长——你之前在我们开始录制前提到，自从上次Neos上节目以来，你们的资产规模实际上已经翻了一番。

I think the this environment and the fact that these option ETFs have grown so much you were talking to me before we started recording that since last time we had Neos on that your assets have effectively doubled.

对吧？

Right?

什么？

What?

感觉我们刚请你们上过节目。

I feel like we just had you guys on.

是啊。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

那期播客一定很精彩。

Must been a must been a good podcast.

我是说，有一点很明显，投资者就是喜欢收益。

I mean, one one thing is that, like, investors obviously love yield.

他们喜欢收入，或者说更喜欢确定性，我猜。

They love income, or they love more certainty, guess.

随便你怎么理解都行。

Pick whichever one you want.

我认为这正反映了这一点，因为这些增长并非发生在熊市环境中。

I think that's kinda what this is showing us because it's not like all this growth is happening in a bear market.

据我所知，2022年的期权策略确实表现非常出色。

I mean, 2022 options strategies did perform very well, you know, as far as I know.

但在牛市背景下，仍有大量资金流入这类期权收益策略，你觉得这反映了投资者怎样的风险偏好？

But what do you think it says about investor risk appetite that in a bull market, there's still been all this money that has gone into option income strategies like this?

我认为我们看到越来越多这样的人——如果十年前你问我和Garrett刚开始推出首批期权ETF时，我们主要面向的是那些为退休人士寻求收入的理财顾问。

I think we're seeing more and more people like, if you had asked us ten years ago when Garrett and I had our first business bringing out a lot of the early option based ETFs, we were primarily talking to people that advisers that would be representing people that were in their retirement years and looking for income.

他们如何通过固定收益投资组合来补充收入？

How do they supplement their income off of their fixed income portfolio?

现在我们开始看到越来越年轻的投资者希望配置这类产品。

Now we are starting to see people younger and younger wanting to be invested in these types of products.

他们并非为了频繁交易，而是考虑如何在年轻时构建能产生收益的投资组合。

Not because they are really looking to trade in and out of it, but they are looking to how can they build an income producing portfolio at a young age.

或许他们只是将股息进行再投资。

And maybe they just reinvest the dividends.

也许其中一些人确实会拿分红来补贴生活开支。

Maybe some of them actually take the dividends and use it to supplement their lifestyle.

但他们如何继续构建一个投资组合，有朝一日或许会启用这些收益分配，因为他们正试图提前退休。

But how could they continue to build a portfolio that one day maybe they turn on those distributions and they are taking them because they are trying to retire at an earlier age.

但我们看到这种现象越来越普遍。

But we have seen it more and more.

我们看到更多人正通过这种方式分散投资组合，降低整体投资组合波动性，并获得不同的收入来源。

We have seen more people looking to diversify their portfolios by doing this, lower their overall portfolio volatility, and have a different source of income.

而传统上你关注的是固定收益。

Whereas traditionally you were looking at fixed income.

现在你可以从这些参考资产的波动中获得收益，这对许多人进行资产配置时确实很有吸引力。

Now where you could source income off the volatility off of one of these reference assets, it's really intriguing for a lot of people as they kind of do their asset allocation.

我知道我们没有ETF的完美透明数据，但我很好想知道有多少年轻人投资于此是因为喜欢其可靠性——这可能会让听众感到惊讶。

I know we don't have perfect data, see through data on ETFs, but I do wonder how many young people would surprise the audience that are investing in this because they like the reliability.

这感觉就像收入。

It feels like income.

听着，随你怎么说。

Listen, say what you will.

他们正在利用资本市场，将价格转化为收入流。

They're they're taking advantage of capital markets, and they're transforming the price into an income stream.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我是说，考虑到我们并没有那些数据。

I mean, I think as you think about we we don't have that data.

如果能了解那些数据的情况会很好，但很多人都在关注这一点。

It would be great to understand what that data look like, but a lot of them look at it.

当然，正如你提到的，有些基金推出了这些天文数字般的收益率，但长期来看，这些收益能否得到基础股票或参考资产的支持呢？

And yes, of course, as you mentioned, there's some funds out there that put out these astronomical yields, and can that be supported by the underlying equity or reference asset over time?

也许能，也许不能。

Maybe, maybe not.

但就我们在此构建的目标而言，我们正围绕您的核心投资组合配置进行建设。

But for what we're trying to build here, we're trying to build around your core portfolio allocations.

我们致力于提供在我们看来长期具有税务效益的收入，并真正参与这些市场的上行潜力。

We're trying to give you what would be a tax efficient income in our view over time, and really trying to participate with the upside of those markets.

是的，市场总会出现波动加剧、整体走低的情况，股市也会下行。

Yes, there's gonna be markets where volatility steps in and the market moves lower, the equity markets move lower.

而在那段时期，由于您获得的收入量，您的表现应当优于大市。

And during that timeframe, you should outperform because of the amount of income you're bringing in.

但我们希望确保当市场反转走高时——历史表明这终将发生——我们同样能参与其中。

But we wanna make sure when it turns around and the market does move higher, history has shown it does, we wanna participate with that as well.

好的。

All right.

那么我们理解在牛市期间它无法完全同步增长，但在熊市中它能提供多少保护？

So we understand that in a bull market, it's not going to keep pace exactly, but how much protection does it provide in a bear market?

因为这类收益策略并非黑天鹅基金。

Because the income strategies, these are not black swan funds.

比如市场下跌时，你也会跟着下跌。

Like if the market is down, you're going to be down.

所以从概念上给我们解释一下，在熊市中市场下跌20%，虽然不是完全同步，但你是否也会下跌20%，而差异部分就是你获得的分配收益？

So explain to us conceptually, in a bear market and the market's down 20, not exactly, but are you gonna be down 20 with the difference being like what you receive in distributions?

如果你获得8%，那么实际下跌是12%吗？

If you get 8%, you're 12%?

是这样吗

Is it that

这样如何？

How about this?

如果让你给出一个平均或你认可的数字范围，上下行捕获率大概是多少？

What's the, like, what's the what's the upside down side capture if you had to give, like, an average or range of a number you're comfortable with?

不是。

No.

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great question.

我认为关键在于这20%的下跌是发生在一个月内，比如像新冠疫情那样的情景，或是今年4月2日或4月9日的情况？

I think it really comes down to is that down 20 happening in one month, like a COVID type scenario or April, you know, April 2 or April 9 of this year?

还是说这种下跌分散在整个年度中发生？

Or is it happening spread out over the year?

因此，备兑看涨期权产品提供的唯一下行保护，就是它所带来保费收入的金额。

So the only downside protection, say, a covered call product is offering is the amount of premium it bring brings in.

所以如果某个月带来1.5%的保费收入，而该月基金——即底层参照物下跌了20%，那么你将下跌18.5%。

So if it brings in one and a half percent that month, and that month the fund is, you know, the underlying reference is down 20, you're gonna be down 18 and a half percent.

但如果这种情况分散在十个月内发生，并且由于你在底层参照物每月下跌2%时持续获得收入，整体表现持平，那么在这种情景下你的表现会大幅领先。

But if it's spread over ten months and you're kind of just flat because you're bringing in income as the, underlying references down 2% every month, then you're gonna outperform by a lot in that scenario.

举个极端例子（虽然不现实，但便于概念理解）：如果市场在一个月内下跌20%，之后全年完全横盘，既无涨幅也无跌幅，那么你第一个月将下跌20%减去获得的利息部分。

So in an extreme example, which is not real life, but just for conceptually, if the market falls 20% in one month and then goes completely sideways for the rest of the year, no gains, no losses, you'll be down 20% in month one less whatever you get in interest.

假设利息是1.5%，那么你将下跌18.5%。

Let's just use one and a half percent, you'll be down 18 and a half percent.

之后如果市场横盘，而你在剩余11个月里每月获得1%收益，这些收益将持续累积。

And then if it goes sideways and you're collecting 1% for the other eleven months, that will accrue to you.

这就是你的下行缓冲。

So that would be your downside buffer.

但这并不是一种对冲策略。

But it's not this this is not a hedged strategy.

正确。

Correct.

不是

Not

对冲。

hedged.

这不是一种下行保护策略。

It is not a downside protection strategy.

这不是一种确定结果策略。

It's not a defined outcome strategy.

因此它与市面上许多其他基于期权的产品有很大不同。

So it's very different than a lot of other option based products that are out there.

我想特别说明的是，我们讨论的这些产品中，除了那个对冲产品外，大多数都不是对冲产品。

And it's very, you know, I wanna make it very clear that most of these products we're talking about outside of the hedged one, these are not hedged products.

如果你通过卖出看涨期权来获取收入，那么你那个月的表现就会更好。

They're if you're selling calls to bring income in, you're just gonna outperform that month.

我们每月会根据你通过卖出看涨期权获得的收入来滚动调整产品。

We roll our products on a monthly basis by the amount of income you're bringing in from that short call.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

你解释得很清楚。

So you've teed it up nicely.

你们还有纳斯达克100对冲股票收益ETF。

You also have the Nasdaq 100 hedged equity income ETF.

代码是QQQH。

It's QQQH.

这个产品是如何运作的？

How does that one work?

它有什么不同之处？

How is it different?

你们想通过这个策略提供什么？

What are you trying to provide with this strategy?

好的。

Sure.

它与我们的高收益产品QQQI非常相似，覆盖纳斯达克100指数的全部100多只成分股。

So it's very similar to our high income product QQQI, where you're along all 100 plus names of the Nasdaq 100.

因此你可以接触到该指数及其背后的增长潜力。

So you have that access to that index and the growth potential behind that.

然后我们使用纳斯达克100指数期权。

And then we're using Nasdaq 100 index options.

我们像QQQI一样卖出看涨期权，但会将收到的部分权利金用于其他用途。

So we're selling calls very similar to QQQI, but then we're taking some of that premium that we receive.

我们并非全额支付，而是从中抽取部分资金购买一个多头看跌价差组合。

And instead of paying it all out, we're taking some of that and buying a long put spread.

这个多头看跌价差组合的具体操作是：我们买入一个轻度虚值的看跌期权（通常虚值4%到5%，具体取决于波动率等因素）。

And what that long put spread looks like is we're buying a long put slightly out of the money, usually four to 5% out of the money, depending on a few factors around where vol is.

然后我们以12%到15%的虚值水平卖出这份保险。

And then we're selling that insurance away anywhere from 12 to 15% out of the money.

这样做的效果是为你提供一定程度的下行保护，同时降低投资组合的波动性。

So what it does is it gives you a measure of downside protection and it lowers the volatility of your portfolio.

回想四月份我们看到的市场状况和关税政策影响，当时股市出现了大幅抛售。

So you think back to April with what we saw with the market and what tariffs did, and we saw this big sell off in the equity markets.

我们目睹了波动率急剧飙升，其收盘价水平是自新冠疫情以来未曾见过的。

We saw a huge spike in volatility, volatility levels we haven't seen on a closing basis since back in COVID.

在此期间，市场波动穿透了这个看跌价差组合。

And what happened during that time is it went through this put spread.

具体来说，它触发了多头看跌期权为你提供保护，但保护范围仅限于空头看跌期权的执行价水平。

So it went through the long put, gave you protection, but it gave you protection down to where the short put was.

因此，在股市其他部分快速抛售时，这种策略为你提供了下行保护。

So it gave you this measure of downside protection while everything else was selling off in the equity markets very quickly.

但当市场反弹，4月9日所有关税暂停时，由于我们卖出了价外看涨期权，且并非总是全额名义本金卖出，我们仍能捕捉大部分上涨收益。

But then when the market rebounded, when the tariffs were all paused on April 9, it was able to capture most of that upside because we had written calls out of the money, and we don't always write calls on a 100% of the notional.

所以即使市场突破了卖出看涨期权的行权价，我们仍能参与后续上涨行情。

So even if the market had gone through the short call strike, we can still participate with the move higher.

虽然无法捕捉全部涨幅，但在卖出看涨期权的行权价上方我们仍能持续参与。

You're not gonna capture all of it, but we could continue to participate above the short call strike.

这种对冲产品的核心理念是：假设你喜欢纳斯达克100指数，但直接持有QQQ股票风险过高，同时希望从纳斯达克100的波动中获取收益。

So the idea behind this hedge product is if you're, let's say you like the NASDAQ one hundred, but it's too much equity risk to just own the Qs, And you want to earn some income off of the volatility around the NASDAQ one hundred.

这时你可以考虑我们的产品——比如QQQI这类高收益产品，但其股票风险仍然过大。

So you look to products like ours and you look at QQQI and the high income product, is still too much equity risk.

就像之前分析迈克尔的案例时所说，如果遭遇大幅抛售，你将承担巨大的下行风险。

Just like we walked through that example of Michael before, if you have this big sell off, you are taking a lot of that downside risk.

而QQQH产品就能发挥作用，它既能让你参与大部分上涨行情，又能提供一定程度的下行保护。

But then maybe QQQH comes in because you can still capture a good portion of the upside, but it'll give you that measure of downside protection.

它能让你的收益流更加平稳。

It's smoothing out your your kind of return stream.

为什么选择指数期权而非个股期权？

Why options on the index instead of the individual names?

我知道很多公司的做法不同。

I know a lot of companies do it differently.

你们为何选择这种方式？

Why did you go that route?

嗯，选择指数有几个原因。

Well, index, I mean, few reasons.

第一，它们的流动性极强。

One, they're extremely liquid.

它们是市场上流动性最强的期权。

They're the most liquid options out there.

第二，由于我们持有整个指数并希望覆盖该指数，即使不是100%覆盖，我们也希望按相同权重覆盖所有成分股。

Two, since we're owning the entire index and we want to overlay that index, even if we do not overlay it on a 100%, we want to cover all those names in the same weighting.

第三，税务效率非常高。

Three, the tax efficiency is huge.

它们被视为1256合约，无论持有期限如何，都能享受60%长期、40%短期资本利得税率。

So they are considered twelve fifty six contracts, which give you 60 long term, 40% short term cap gains rate no matter the holding period.

我们每月滚动这些期权，因此总会产生与之相关的盈亏。

So we roll these on a monthly basis, so there's always a P and L associated with these options.

所以我们想确保税务效率得以实现。

So we wanted to make sure the tax efficiency was there.

单一股票期权、ETF、股票挂钩票据和互换交易都无法获得这种税务优势。

You don't get that on single name options, ETFs, equity linked notes, swaps.

因此我们尽可能坚持使用指数期权。

So we really wanted to stick with the index options wherever we can.

我这辈子好像从没构建过看跌价差组合。

So I don't think I've ever built a put spread in my life.

坦白说，我不是玩期权的人。

So hand up, I'm not an options guy.

也许你可以解释一下你具体想做什么。

Maybe you could explain what exactly it is you're trying to do.

我猜你通过购买那个放弃了一些上涨空间，但这是否像在某个特定点你希望对冲，比如当市场下跌到某个点时？

I assume you're giving up some upside by buying that, but is it like at a certain point you're hoping to hedge, like when the market is down a certain point?

或者说这种情况会如何变化，是否会因为波动性而改变？

Or like how does that or does it change because of volatility?

你具体想要达成什么样的界限？

Like what exactly is like the line in the sand you're trying to achieve there?

当然。

Sure.

所以我们这里的所有策略都是基于规则且系统化的。

So all of our strategies here are rules based and systematic.

因此在我们操作时，没有投资组合经理的自行裁量权。

So we're not taking there's no portfolio manager discretion taken as we're rolling it.

所以这个看跌价差实际上是一个看跌价差领口策略，因为我们同时卖出了看涨期权。

So what the put spread looks like is it's really a put spread collar because we're selling the call.

我们卖出看涨期权并收取权利金。

We're selling the call and bringing in premium.

当我们收取这笔权利金时，原本可以全部分配出去，但我们选择用部分资金购买一个多头看跌价差组合——即买入一个深度虚值的看跌期权（根据波动率等因素，通常在展期时选择行权价低于市价4-5%的合约），同时卖出相应的保险。

When we bring in that premium, we have all these dollars that we could distribute out, but instead of distributing out all of them, we take some of them and we buy a long put spread, which means we're buying a long put, which like I said, depending on volatility and a few other factors, is usually four to 5% out of the money when we roll it, and then we're selling away that insurance.

不同于单纯将对冲成本归零（这种方式通常代价高昂且收益不佳，考虑到市场归零或下跌50%的概率实际上微乎其微），我们通过卖出保险将风险转移至下跌12-15%的区间（具体取决于多种因素）。

So instead of just hedging yourself to zero, which usually costs a lot and doesn't always pay off, and it's usually not worth it when you think about the probability of the market going to zero or even down 50% where it would really make a difference, we sell that insurance away anywhere from down 12 to 15% depending on a few factors.

通过这种操作，当市场出现波动时，这个多头看跌价差组合就能为投资组合提供阶段性保护。

So when you sell that insurance away, you have this block of this long put spread that protects the portfolio for a period of, you know, a market move.

对冲策略的收益有多少比例取决于市场走势路径？

How much of the return of the hedge strategy is path dependent on where the market goes?

很大程度取决于此——毕竟你持有的是整个纳斯达克100指数的多头头寸。

You think a huge part of it, if you think about it, because you're long that entire Nasdaq 100.

如果市场横盘震荡，通过看涨期权空头与看跌期权多头的组合净收取权利金，那么大部分收益将来自期权组合。

So if you're gonna go sideways and we're bringing in a net credit from the short call long put spread combo, you're gonna bring most of it in from the option portfolio.

但如果遇到像2023、2024乃至现在2025年这样的牛市行情，市场持续上涨时，主要收益则来自投资组合中的标的股票。

But if you're gonna be in the, you know, a bull market like we've seen '23, '24, now '25, where the market's still moving up, you know, most of it's gonna come from the underlying equities in the portfolio.

我是一名财务顾问。

So I'm a financial advisor.

我正在考虑这两种策略中的任意一种，对吧？

I'm thinking about either of these strategies, right?

期权收益策略与对冲策略。

The option income versus the hedge.

我这里随便编些数字，但感觉就像是80/20投资组合与60/40的对比——这两种策略在投资者更保守或更愿意承担风险方面，风险特征有多大差异？

I'm making up the numbers here, but is it kind of like, well it's like an eightytwenty portfolio versus a sixtyforty, like how much different risk profile is there in the two strategies in terms of investors being more conservative or more you know, wanting to take more risk?

是的，如果仔细想想，对冲组合的基础贝塔值远低于高收益组合。

Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, the underlying beta of the hedge portfolio is much lower than the high income portfolio.

所以如果你在为你的客户考虑，并且有年轻客户想进入这个领域获取收益，在我看来可能QQQI更适合。

So if you're thinking about it for your clients and you have younger clients that want to be in this space, to get income, you know, my view would be probably QQQI.

你有更长的时间跨度。

You have a longer time horizon.

你希望在获取更高收益的同时承担更多股票风险。

You wanna take more equity risk while getting more income at the same time.

而如果你的客户年纪较大，已处于退休阶段，但他们预计还有二三十年才会不再需要这笔收入（因为那时他们可能已不在人世），我们认为你确实应该采取更为保守的策略，利用这种下行保护机制。

Whereas if you have clients that are older in retirement years, but still have what they hope is twenty, thirty years before they don't need the income anymore because they're not around, you really would wanna keep it more, in our view, conservative where you have that downside protection used.

这是一种能让你夜夜安眠的保障，你知道即使第二天市场下跌20%，你的资产也不会跟着跌那么多。

A little bit of, you know, sleep at sleep at night protection that you know if the market's down 20 the next day, you shouldn't be down 20 with it.

在我看来，这是最理想的适用场景。

Here's what I would see this as the perfect use case for.

虽然有点小众，不过这个产品本身并不算小众，我猜是吧？它的规模是多少来着？

A bit niche, although this is not a niche product, I guess, because it's how how much what is it?

60亿或更多？

6,000,000,000 or more?

QQQI的规模超过60亿，而对冲产品QQQH大约是3.5亿。

So QQQI has over 6,000,000,000, but QQQH, the hedge products is about 350,000,000.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Alright.

6,000,000,000美元。

$6,000,000,000.

这可不是一笔小数目。

Not not an insignificant insignificant sum.

对于年龄超过我们RMD（最低提取年龄）59或69岁的人来说？

For the person who is over age when our RMDs is at 59 69?

不管具体是几岁。

Whatever the age is.

具体年龄是多少？

What's the age?

59岁。

59.

59岁。

59.

你确定吗？

You sure about that?

好的。

Okay.

我只是想说是69岁。

I just wanted to be 69.

所以，如果你不打算花这笔收入，领取它就没有意义。

So if there's no point to taking the income if you're not gonna spend the income.

不是吗？

No?

比如，如果你40岁，把这笔钱存在个人退休账户里，你为什么要这么做呢？

Like, if you're if you're 40 and you have this in in an IRA, like, why would you do that?

是的。

Yeah.

我们接触的许多实际领取收入的人，比如从QQQI中提取，他们会查看这笔钱，然后投资到他们想投资的其他领域，无论是另类投资空间还是不同行业。

A lot of people that we talk to that actually take the income, say off of a QQQI, look at it, and then they invest it in other places they wanna invest, whether they're alternative space or different sectors.

好吧。

Alright.

反驳观点。

Counterpoint.

为什么不直接投资QQQ，然后卖出部分来实现同样的目的呢？

Why not invest in the Qs and just sell some and then do it that way?

不。

No.

但这里不行。

But here here no.

我知道答案。

I know the answer.

我们已经和人们争论过无数次这个问题了。

We've we've had this argument with people a million times.

不是争论，但人们喜欢简单的方式，即使这从数学角度并非最有效率。

Not an argument, but people love the easy button even if it is not, quote, the most mathematically efficient way to do this.

我自己也属于这类人。

And I am I put myself in that category too.

我不是电子表格。

Am not a spreadsheet.

我的生活不在电子表格里。

I don't live my life in a spreadsheet.

如果方法简单但稍微贵点，你猜怎么着？

If it's easy and it's a little bit more expensive, guess what?

我会选择简单按钮。

I'm going with the easy button.

我就喜欢简单的。

I love the easy.

所以这是很重要的一部分。

So that's a huge component of it.

我认为这是个重要因素。

I think that's a big component.

我觉得人们虽然可能理解期权及其运作方式，但很多人

I think people while they might understand options and how they work, a lot

谁会想那么做呢？

of people Who wants to do that?

很多人会看纳斯达克指数。

A lot of people look at the Nasdaq.

要知道，仔细想想，大多数人的账户里并没有足够的现金来交易指数期权。

You you know, most people don't have enough cash in their account to trade index options when you think about it.

所以他们就把税务效率这部分给剔除了。

So then they're pulling out the tax efficiency piece.

所以他们就会坐在那里，每月滚动操作纳斯达克100指数的100手短期看涨期权。

So then they're gonna sit there and roll a 100 short calls on the Nasdaq 100 on a monthly basis.

荒谬。

Ridiculous.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以大多数人不想这样操作，他们更愿意选择由他人管理的产品。

So most people don't wanna look at it that way when they could do it in a product that is managed by somebody else.

ETF的一个优点是它完全透明。

The nice part about ETFs, it's it's fully transparent.

他们可以每晚查看ETF的所有持仓。

On a nightly basis, they could see all the holdings in the ETF.

他们可以看到哪些是空头看涨期权，这也是使用指数期权的另一大优势。

They could see what short calls were in, which is another great thing about using the index options.

他们能了解自己的持仓情况，而其他一些互换或股票挂钩票据则不然，因为你根本不清楚它们的操作，这些产品没有明确说明。

They could understand how they're positioned versus some of the other swaps or equity linked notes where you really don't know what they're doing because it doesn't spell it out.

因此，这是我们一直关注的重点之一：尽可能保持透明，介绍我们的产品，随时进行投资者教育。

So that's one of the things we, you know, we always look at is trying to be as transparent as possible, talk about our products, educate wherever we can.

考虑到这个领域发展如此迅速，以及投资各类基金的人数之多，我认为做好功课非常重要。

I think since this space is growing so much and you think about how many people are investing in all these different funds out there, it's really important to do your homework.

任何关注这一领域的人都应该花时间了解自己的投资标的，查看持仓文件，弄清这些不同ETF的底层资产，然后判断是否适合其投资组合。

Anybody looking at this space should spend the time, understand what they're investing in, look at the holdings files, understand what's under the hood of these different ETFs, and then see if it fits their portfolio.

那么，人们应该关注哪些方面呢？

So what what are the some of the things that people should be looking for?

我很高兴你转向了这个方向，说实话，我都不知道还能再问你多少问题了。

Because I'm glad you you pivoted that way because honestly, I don't know how many more questions I could ask you.

顺便说一句，我认为你做得非常出色，这要归功于你。

I think you did a great job on this, by the way, so that's a credit to you.

你回答了我关于这些产品的每一个相关问题。

You you had every every relevant question that I had on on these products.

但就投资者做功课而言，有没有什么可能是他们需要注意的危险信号？

But in in terms of, like, investors doing their homework, are there things that, like, maybe like a red flag that they should look out for?

这到底是什么意思？

What what does that even mean?

投资者应该从哪里开始？

Where do investors start?

我认为很多人首先会看分配收益率，我觉得这是个误区。

I think, you know, a lot of people first, you know, which I think is a mistake, first look at what the distribution yield is.

他们会觉得，哦，这个有15%，那个有95%。

And they're like, oh, this one has 15 and this one's 95.

那个是95%。

That one's 95.

我应该选那个。

I should take that one.

但当你真正分析时，最公平的比较方式是看总回报率，然后说：好吧，基金A、B和C都在同一领域，我们来比较一下。

But when you really look at it, the best way to equalize the returns is to look at the total return and say, all right, is fund A, fund B and fund C, let's look at they're all in the same space.

我们就以纳斯达克100指数为例吧。

Let's just use the NASDAQ 100 as the example.

它们的总回报率相似吗？

Are the total returns similar?

可能一个分红很高，另一个则较少。

One might have a huge distribution, one might be smaller.

当你筛选出这些基金的实际回报表现后，就可以开始深入研究这些ETF了。

And then after you start to whittle down what kind of returns these are putting out, then you can start to look into these ETFs.

你可以登录任何平台——我们的网站或竞争对手的网站，查看持仓情况，了解ETF的实际成分，然后真正深入挖掘并理解它们背后的税收效率及其意义。

You can go on any competitor, you know, our website, any competitor website, and look at the holdings and understand what's actually in the ETFs, and then to start to really dig down and understand the tax efficiency behind them, and what it means.

因为在年底时，你会收到1099表格，有人会查看这份表格并说：好吧，这笔分配金额中有多少比例是我实际能保留的？

Because at the end of the year, you're gonna get your ten ninety nine, and somebody's gonna look at that ten ninety nine and say, all right, how much of this distribution, whatever the percentage was, how much do I get to keep?

有多少是被递延到未来的？

How much is deferred down the road?

这在年度基础上看起来是怎样的？

And what does that look like on a yearly basis?

所以深入理解这些确实非常重要。

So it's really important to, you know, really dig in.

我认为现在有太多资源可以帮助人们开始理解并做好功课，重要的是每个人都应该这么做。

I I think there's so many resources now to start to understand it and do your homework that it's it's important that, you know, everybody does it.

那么从商业角度来说，你是否暗自希望美联储继续降息，因为相对而言这会让你们表现更好？还是说利率下降实际上会损害你们通过期权获得的收益？

So from a business perspective, are you secretly hoping the Fed just keeps cutting rates because that on a relative basis makes you look better, or do falling rates actually hurt the yield you're getting on the options income?

这是1:1的关系吗？

Is it a one to one?

在利率下降的环境中这是如何运作的？

How does that work in a falling rate environment?

不，我

No, I

我认为随着利率下降，人们会寻求从其他渠道获取收益，这正是我们开始发挥更多作用的时候，因为我们在这个例子中是从纳斯达克100指数的波动性中获取收益，或者其他参考资产。

think as rates come in, I think people will look to source income in other places, and I think that's where we start to fit in a little more because we're sourcing income from the volatility of the Nasdaq 100 in this example, or one of the other reference assets.

所以从这个角度考虑，是的，随着利率下降，投资我们这类产品应该会显得更具吸引力。

And so when you think about it that way, yes, as rates come in, it should look more attractive to be in products like ours.

不过我们确实也有一些固定收益产品。

Although we do have a number of fixed income products.

因此当利率下降时，这些固定收益产品的基础持仓价值也会随之下降，但我们在其上叠加了期权策略，以增强这些月度分派。

So as rates come in, the underlying holdings of those fixed income products, those will come in as well, but we add options on top of them to, you know, enhance those those, you know, monthly distributions.

所以对我们来说，是的，这类业务在低利率环境下总是更有利，因为我们实质上是从波动性市场中获取收益。

So for us, yes, it's always nicer to have a a lower rate environment for this type of thing because we're really just sourcing the the income paid from the volatility market.

加密货币呢？

What about crypto?

你们有比特币产品吗？

You guys have a Bitcoin product?

我们有。

We do.

我们有一个比特币产品BTCI，已经推出一年多了，表现非常出色。

We have a Bitcoin product, BTCI, that has been out a little over a year, and that's been a great product.

显然，最近我们看到了比特币价格的大幅波动。

Obviously, we've seen a lot of volatility in Bitcoin lately.

去年大选后我们就看到了波动，之后价格横盘了一段时间。

We saw it right after the election last year, and then we kinda went sideways for a while.

随后又出现了一波上涨，而最近几周比特币则出现了相当大幅度的抛售。

We saw another, you know, move higher, and now we've seen, you know, pretty good sell off over the past few weeks in in Bitcoin.

但这个产品的规模已经增长了很多。

But that product has been one that has grown a lot.

最初推出时，我们以为它可能主要面向零售投资者。

You know, At first when we brought it out, we thought it would probably be more of a retail focused product.

我们预计会看到很多个人投资者购买这个产品。

We'd see a lot of individual investors buying it.

但当我们与顾问交谈时，加勒特和我每天都在和顾问沟通，总是会有人问，嘿。

But as we talk to advisors, Garrett and I talk to advisors every day, and it would always be, hey.

我们能聊聊QQQI或其他一些规模更大的基金吗？

Can we talk about QQQI or one of the other bigger funds?

然后在谈话结束时，他们会说，给我们讲讲比特币基金吧。

And then at the end, they'd say, tell us about the Bitcoin fund.

因为我有些客户在比特币2.5万美元时厌恶它，5万美元时不愿讨论，而当涨到10万美元时，他们却在问为什么我们没有比特币敞口？

Because I have clients that hated Bitcoin at 25,000, didn't wanna talk about it at 50,000, and then it hit a 100,000, and they're saying, why don't we have any Bitcoin exposure?

因此，能够从比特币的波动中获取收益——其波动性通常是标普500或纳斯达克100指数的三到四倍——这对许多人来说极具吸引力。

And so being able to earn income off of the volatility around Bitcoin, which is traditionally three to four times what you might see in the S and P 500 or the Nasdaq one hundred, is really enticing to a lot of people.

它的分配收益率肯定远高于股票甚至纳斯达克100指数吧？

The distribution yield on that has to be way higher than you get in stocks or even the Nasdaq 100?

是的。

Yeah.

所以它的收益率大约在25%到30%之间。

So that's yielding anywhere in the 25 to 30% range.