萨明·诺斯拉特并不喜欢感恩节食物。以下是她说能改善它的建议。

你好。

Hi there.

我是莎米塔。

It's Shamita here.

在开始今天的节目之前，我们有个问题想问你。

Before we get into today's episode, we have a question for you.

今年你最喜欢的艺术作品或文化现象是什么？

What was your favorite piece of art or culture from this year?

我们正在制作一期关于2025年最佳电视节目、电影、音乐、书籍等的专题节目，想知道你会向其他听众强烈推荐哪部必读、必看或必听的作品。

We're working on an episode all about twenty twenty five's best TV, films, music, books, and more, and we wanna know the one thing you would recommend to your fellow listeners as a must read, watch, or listen.

用你iPhone的语音备忘录应用录下你的回答。

Use your iPhone's voice memos app to record yourself.

只需告诉我们你的名字、来自哪里以及你的推荐，请尽量控制在一分钟左右。

Just tell us your name, where you're from, and your recommendation, and please try to keep it to about a minute or less.

你可以将录音发送至inconversation@apple.com。

You can send it to us at inconversation@apple.com.

再次提醒，邮箱是inconversation@apple.com，我们可能会在节目中播放您的录音。

Again, that's inconversation@apple.com, and we might include your voice on the show.

谢谢。

Thanks.

这里是Apple News的《In Conversation》节目。

This is In Conversation from Apple News.

我是Shamita Basu。

I'm Shamita Basu.

今天，Sami Nosrat将与我们分享她的新书《新传统》以及如何无压力地度过感恩节。

Today, Sami Nosrat on her new book, New Traditions and How to Do Thanksgiving Without Stress.

很难夸大Semi Nosrat畅销烹饪书《盐、脂肪、酸、热》带来的文化变革。

It's hard to overstate the culture shift that came from Semi Nosrat's best selling cookbook Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat.

在这本书中，这位厨师兼作家提出了烹饪的四大基石，并论证了只要理解这些元素如何协同作用，人人都能做好菜。

In it, the chef and writer laid out these four cornerstones of cooking and made the argument that anyone can cook well if they understand how these elements work together.

这本烹饪书的部分理念是摆脱食谱的束缚，跟随自己的感官烹饪。

It was a cookbook in part about breaking free from the recipe and following your senses.

我就知道如果做对了，这四大要素会成为日常用语，现在确实如此，这太棒了。

I knew that if I did it right, that those four elements would become part of the vernacular, and they have, which is so awesome.

当这本书在2017年出版，随后她主持的Netflix剧集上线后，几乎一夜之间的成功让萨敏从美食圈名人变成了家喻户晓的人物。

When the book came out in 2017 followed by the Netflix series she hosted, its almost overnight success catapulted Samin from being known in food circles to being known just about everywhere.

它的影响力远远超出了我最疯狂的想象，这真的很美妙。

It really got so much bigger than I ever could have dreamed of, which was wonderful.

这段旅程实在太酷了。

It was such a cool ride to be on.

但在某个非常非常深的层面，像是潜意识里，我曾希望或许取得伟大成就能治愈我内心深处的悲伤与孤独。

But I think on some very, very deep level, like a subconscious level, I hoped that maybe achieving greatness would fix something that was really sad and lonely inside of me.

就在她与这种既兴奋又深感孤独的矛盾情绪斗争时，疫情爆发了。

As she wrestled with these conflicting feelings of excitement and deep loneliness, the pandemic hit.

她还经历了个人损失，包括父亲的离世。

And she experienced personal losses, including the death of her father.

她特别提到，父亲的去世迫使她重新调整人生方向。

His passing in particular, she says forced her to reorient her life.

我与烹饪之间毫无联系

I didn't have a relationship to cooking.

我找不到任何意义感

I didn't have the sense of meaning.

我不知道该做什么

I didn't know what to do.

而与临终之人如此近距离的接触，让我前所未有地直面自身生命的有限性，也让我突然明白——我这辈子都在埋头苦干、追求成就，总想着'快乐可以留到以后'

And then having sort of this very close-up interaction with a dying person really brought to the forefront for me a sense of my own mortality and a clarity that like this thing that I've been doing my whole life of, like, put your head down and work and just achieve, and you can be happy later.

'乐趣可以留到以后'

You can have fun later.

但我意识到，根本不能保证还有'以后'

And I realized, like, there's no later guaranteed.

在这场蜕变与心灵探索中，她诞生了第二本食谱《美好事物》

And out of all this transition and soul searching came her second cookbook, Good Things.

我重新找到了回归烹饪的方式，也找到了烹饪的意义——用生命中最宝贵的货币（时间）与所爱之人共度

I was able to find a way back to cooking and a way to find meaning in cooking as a way to spend this most precious currency or time with the people that I care about.

萨敏与我坐下来聊了聊她不断演变的食谱创作方式，以及她关于如何成功举办一场风味十足的感恩节聚会的绝佳建议。

Samin sat down with me to talk about her ever evolving approach to recipes and her best tips for having a successful and flavorful Thanksgiving gathering.

但我们首先谈到了新书的内容。

But we started with what's in the new book.

书中强调了与众人共聚一堂分享美食的理念，以及她这次希望达成的创作目标。

Its emphasis on gathering with people to share a meal and what she hoped to create this time around.

甚至在我明确意识到'时间核心'将成为这本书的灵魂之前，我就已经开始测试食谱了。

Even before sort of I was so clear about this like kernel of time being at the heart of the book, I was already testing recipes.

我一直在努力寻找那些确实能带来分享喜悦的料理。

I was already trying to find my way to things that I did feel would be joyful to share.

你知道，我不想把自己塑造成只会追求成就的怪物。

You know, I don't wanna make myself as only some achievement monster.

事实上，我内心真正渴望的是分享美好事物带来的快乐。

Like, I also truly am driven by, like, this joy in sharing really good things.

当遇到真正美妙、可口、有趣或感人的事物时，我人生中的第一反应总是打电话叫人，或是在街上拦住路人说：你知道这个吗？

Like, when something is really beautiful or delicious or fun or moving, the first thing I wanna do in my life always is call people up or like wave people down on the street and be like, do you know about this?

这太酷了。

This is so cool.

你知道吗？

Did you know about

在这列火车上。

on this train.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

这也正是这本书的核心情感所在——这些就是能让我产生那种共鸣的事物。

And so that also is very much at the sentiment of this book, which is like, these are the things that make me feel like that.

其中有些真的很简单，你知道的，不需要太多功夫、花费或复杂操作。

And some of them are really small, you know, and not super labor intensive or expensive or complicated.

而有些则要求更高，对厨艺水平更有挑战性。

And some of them are more, you know, ask more of you as a cook.

但我想说，这是本书的核心准则——每个入选的食谱都必须达到这种标准，让人产生'你之前知道这种做法吗？'的新奇感。

But I would say that's the, like, tenet of that was the sort of standard every recipe had to meet, or anything I wanted to include in the book had to have that feeling of, like, did you you know about this yet?

我知道你对食谱有着复杂的情感。

I know that you have a complicated relationship with recipes.

我们来聊聊这个吧。

Let's talk about that.

你在书里也提到过这点，之前也讨论过。

I mean, you talk about it in this book too, and you've talked about it before.

不过现在请谈谈你对食谱的最新看法——我知道观点可能会变，我们都在不断成长——以及你为这本书开发食谱时的思考方式。

But tell me your current thoughts on recipes, which I know might change, and we all we always evolve, and how you kind of think about recipe development for something like like this book.

是啊。

Yeah.

我对食谱为何让我感到不安有两种非常强烈且相互矛盾的感觉。

I have these two very intense, very conflicting feelings about why recipes unsettle me.

其一是，我认为食谱的基本承诺存在某种缺陷。

And one is I think that the fundamental promise of a recipe is sort of flawed.

就像，我们期望通过阅读一份配料清单和步骤说明，如果按照纸上写的去做，就能得到图片上的成品。

Like, I think the thing that we expect from reading a list of ingredients and reading a list of steps is that if we follow what's on the page, we will get the thing in the picture.

而且每次都能永远如此。

And that will happen every time forever.

是啊。

Yeah.

但这根本不是事实。

But, like, it's just not true.

我的意思是，甚至从量子物理的角度来看，这都不成立。

I mean, even, like, in a quantum physics way, it's not true.

每次的时间都是不同的。

Like, time is different every time.

你明白吗？

You know?

这次我的橙子可能更酸一些。

My oranges maybe are more acidic this time.

这次我的番茄可能水分更多。

My tomatoes are maybe more watery this time.

你需要投入的是自己的专注力、经验和感官判断。

Like, so much of what you have to bring is your own attention and your own experience and your senses.

所以这就是问题的一部分原因。

So that's part of what the issue for me is.

还有部分原因是，我比任何人都更想成为你在厨房里的朋友、支持者和老师。

Part of it is too, like, I want more than anything to be your friend and your advocate and your teacher in the kitchen.

所以我非常认真地对待这件事——如果你按照我写的步骤操作却没成功，那一定是我在哪里出错了。

So I take it very seriously that, like, if you follow what I've written on the page and it doesn't work out, that's because I made a mistake somewhere.

比如我漏掉了某些非常重要的信息。

Like, I didn't include some very important information.

食谱有问题。

There's a problem with the recipe.

这不是你的错，我永远不想让你感到难过。

It's not you, and I never want you to feel bad.

但我对此过于极端，甚至纠结于精确到该告诉你用多少克面粉，虽然我知道大多数人实际上并不会称量面粉。

But I take that to, like, extremes and then that I agonize over the precision of how many grams of flour I should be specifically telling you to do knowing that most people don't actually weigh their flour.

对吧？

Right?

所以我总是这样，近乎疯狂地追求尽可能精确。

So there's all of this kind of, like like, I drive myself crazy with trying to get it as precise as possible.

同时我也不希望你非得那么精确，因为我专门写了另一本书《盐、脂、酸、热》，教你怎么凭直觉烹饪，对吧？

And I also don't want you to have to be that precise because I wrote an entire other book called salt, fat, acid, heat, teaching you how to cook, like, intuitively Right.

就是根据手边现有的食材，在当下凭本能灵活发挥。

Instinctively in the moment with whatever you have and being loose.

比如有时候你有三把胡萝卜，而菜谱是按两把写的，但这其实没那么重要。

And, like, sometimes you have three bunches of carrots and the recipe's written for two, but it doesn't really matter that much.

比如，只要把它们切成同样大小，烤制相同时间就行。

Like, just cut them the same size, you know, roast them for the same time.

我总是试图包含那些最关键的信息，能让你达到目标的那种。

Like, which information is the most crucial to get you where you need to go is what I'm always trying to include.

对。

Right.

萨敏，我告诉你，我之前做过其中一道菜谱

I'll tell you, Samin, I made one of the recipes before

哦，你做了什么？

Oh, what'd you make?

今天和你聊天时做的。

Chatting with you today.

我做了你的库库派。

I made your cuckoo kopita.

哦。

Oh.

这让我很有共鸣，因为正如我们开始聊天前我告诉你的，我有一半伊朗血统。

So this was speaking to me because, as I told you right before we started chatting, I am half Iranian.

嗯。

Mhmm.

库库是一道波斯菜，用了大量香草。

Cuckoo being a Persian dish that is really herb heavy.

就像是...

It's like a Yes.

类似香草煎蛋饼那种。

Herby frittata sort of.

而你在这里把它和菠菜派结合起来了。

And you you combined it with spanakopita here.

是的。

Yes.

这个创意应用真是太棒了。

It was such a creative application.

我简直爱上了那张照片，心想我一定要这个，所以我觉得我得自己做

I just I was I was in love with the picture and was like, I want this, so I think I need to make

现在看到照片，我也想要了

I want that too now that I see the picture.

非常感谢你做了这个

Thank you so much for making that.

这让我非常开心

That makes me so happy.

真的非常非常美味

It's it truly it's so delicious.

我觉得对我来说，这某种程度上就像我偶然发现所有这些东西的方式，每当我试图创造出新事物时都是这样

And I think part of where that came from for me was this is kind of the how I stumble into all of these, like, anything that I'm trying to figure out how to, like, create something new.

嗯

And Mhmm.

说到烹饪，我不认为这世上真有多少全新的东西

When it comes to cooking, I don't believe that there's that much new under the sun.

就像，如果你把视角拉远，纵观全球，每个地方的人们都有他们自己的豆类料理。

Like, I think if you zoom way out and you look across the world, people everywhere have their, you know, bean dish.

世界各地的人们都有自己的炖菜。

People everywhere have their stew.

他们有自己的烧烤食物、面包、面条和饺子。

They have their, you know, their grilled thing, their bread, their noodle, their dumpling.

基本上，做事情的方式就只有那么多种。

Like, there are just sort of only so many ways of doing things.

那么我究竟为这带来了什么？

So what is it exactly that I am bringing to this?

某种程度上，这道菜源于疫情期间，在我的花园和农场蔬菜盒之间，我总是有很多香草，而且总是有点来不及用完它们。

Like, with this cuckoo and this, in some ways, came out of the pandemic between my garden and the farm boxes, I always have so many herbs, and I'm kind of always a little bit behind on using them up.

波斯料理中处理香草的一种非常美妙的方式是：将它们切得非常细，通常炒到几乎变成深绿色甚至接近黑色的程度，烹饪用的油会变得翠绿且香气四溢，香草的味道也会改变。

And a really beautiful way that herbs are sort of dealt with in Persian cooking is that they're chopped up very finely and often sort of sauteed to this very far point of, like, almost turning very dark green, almost black, and the oil you cook them in gets really green and fragrant, and the taste of the herbs changes.

它不再有那种新鲜感。

It doesn't have that freshness.

它有一种更浓郁、更深邃的风味，对我来说非常美味。

It has a much deeper, richer taste, and it's a very delicious taste to me.

这就是‘cucucopoda’创意的来源，因为我非常喜欢菠菜派和各种来自巴尔干地区、地中海沿岸、土耳其等地的酥皮点心。

And that was where this idea for the cucucopoda came from because I also really love spanakopoda and all the kind of flaky pastries from all the Balkan regions and across the, you know, Mediterranean and in Turkey and everywhere.

所以这是一种将我们文化中的元素与其他文化相结合的尝试。

So this was a way to sort of take something from our culture and combine it with something else.

这个创意真的很有趣，而且非常美味。

Well, it's a really fun idea, and it was delicious.

我真的很喜欢。

I really enjoyed it.

我想说这本书虽然讲的是食谱和食物本身，但它更是一本关于人和我们相聚时发生的故事的书。

Well, I would say that this book, as much as it is about recipes and the food itself, it's very much a book about people and what happens when we gather

是啊。

Yeah.

以及一起分享食物的意义。

And share food together.

从很多方面来说，这本书就像一首颂歌，献给我们与最爱之人共享的那些仪式。

In a lot of ways, it's really like an ode to the rituals that we share with the people we love most.

是的。

Yes.

你在书中讲述了一些故事，关于你如何艰难地放下过去在厨房里习惯扮演的角色，以及需要做出哪些改变才能真正享受与人们相聚的时光。

And you tell some stories in the book about how hard it's been for you to sort of let go of who you were used to being in the kitchen, and what needed to change that you could really enjoy the gathering with people.

你能稍微谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk about that a little bit?

好的。

Yeah.

历史上我参加的每个晚宴，作为主人时都像塔斯马尼亚恶魔一样忙得团团转，心里总想着这样才能让人感受到被照顾。

I've always sort of historically spent every dinner party that I've ever been a host of, like a Tasmanian devil sort of running around with the idea from my heart that, like, this is what's gonna make people feel cared for.

但最终我觉得他们也像被我的焦虑能量溅射到了。

But ultimately, I think they're also, like, in the splash zone of my, like, anxious energy.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

And Yeah.

可以说，这基本就是我整个成年生活中作为主人的常态。

That's very much the mode that I have been in as, like, a host, let's say, for probably my whole adult life.

因为我还是个专业厨师，所以希望一切都完美无缺。

Because also, I'm a professional cook, so I want everything to be perfect and just so.

没错。

And Right.

当人们问‘需要帮忙吗’的时候，

When people say, can we help in any way?

我的回答总是‘绝对不用’。

I'm like, absolutely not.

部分出于慷慨的考虑，部分因为我是个控制狂。

Partly out of, like, idea of generosity and partly because I'm a control freak.

对吧？

Right?

结果我反而错过了整顿饭。

And I end up missing the whole meal.

和这群朋友相处我学到一件事，我们坚持每周一聚餐已超过五年，其中一个美好时刻就是当你坐下拉近椅子，能环顾餐桌看到大家各自准备带来的食物，这种体验对我来说是出于必要性和某种偶然，因为这些聚餐不在我家举办。

And one thing I've learned with this group of friends, we've had these Monday dinners now for over five years, and one of the beautiful moments is when you sit down at the table and pull your chair up and sort of are able to look at the table and see what everyone's made and brought together, which for me happened only sort of out of necessity and out of, like, sort of accidentally because these dinners are not at my house.

所以不是我主办的。

So I don't host them.

我经常做些菜带去，但不会有那种主人翁的感觉，因为这是非常协作性的。

I often cook things and contribute them, but I don't get to feel this ownership because it's very collaborative.

因此，这种骄傲感某种程度上脱离了我的掌控。

And so it was sort of pride out of my hands.

正因如此，我得以体会到被照顾的感觉，以及分担责任、共享荣誉的滋味。

And because of that, I've gotten to have this sense of what it's like to be cared for and what it's like to share responsibility and also share credit.

那种感觉真的很棒。

And that feels so good.

是啊。

Yeah.

多跟我说说这个每周的聚会吧，你写过一篇很美的文章，谈到要建立一个每周固定与同一群人聚餐的仪式有多困难。

Tell me more about this weekly ritual because you you wrote a really lovely essay about it, about how it's tough to do to institute a ritual that happens every week with the same people getting together eating.

但从中所获的回报听起来，这已成为你们所有人生活中极其重要的新事物。

But what you gain from it, it sounds like it's just been an enormously important new thing in all of your lives.

是的。

Yes.

而且归根结底这并不需要那么困难。

And it ultimately doesn't have to be that hard.

我们这个聚会某种程度上是机缘巧合形成的。

This one sort of happened very serendipitously.

我是在专业厨房环境中成长起来的，这意味着我所有的朋友都是厨师。

I became an adult in professional kitchens, which meant that all of my friends were cooks.

这也意味着我们每次聚会——这很频繁——核心永远是关于食物。

And it meant that anytime we gathered, which was often, it was all about the food.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

就像，我们都会想，这次我们又学到了什么新东西？

Like, we were all like, oh, what did we learn about this time?

我们想做什么菜？

What do we wanna make?

还带着一点想要互相炫耀、超越对方的心态。

And a little bit of the spirit of, like, impressing each other, outdoing each other.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

然而也有许多顿饭，我坐在餐桌旁时并不觉得自己是个被允许完全做真实自我的人。

And yet there were also many meals that I sat at the tables of where I didn't feel like I was fully a human allowed to be my full self at the table.

你知道，我必须表现得体，或者可能我是桌上唯一的有色人种，或是存在一些大家都懂而我却感到被排除在外的文化梗。

You know, I needed to be on my best behavior, or maybe I was the only person who wasn't white, or there were cultural touchstones that everyone else sort of had that I was felt very excluded from.

所以我逐渐意识到，我不想再让我的生活围绕着这样的饭局转了。

And so I kind of realized I didn't want to make my life around meals like that anymore.

而最美妙的是，这群人其实并不是——如果让我列个理想好友聚餐名单的话——我可能根本不会想到他们中的任何人。

And that's what's been so beautiful is that this group of people is not necessarily who I would have you know, if I was, like, coming up with my dream fantasy list of my friends to come to dinner, it wouldn't have been, I think, any of these people.

他们很友善。

They're friendly.

我们是朋友，但他们并非我生活的核心。

We're friends, but they were not at the core of my life.

而正是过去五年间的亲近与承诺，让他们成为了我生活的核心。

And just the sort of proximity and the commitment over these last five years has brought them to the core of my life.

这本书就是献给他们的。

They're who I dedicated this book to.

在某种程度上，是他们在这些年最艰难的时期让我得以生存，并教会我学会接受帮助和坚持出现。

They, in some ways, have kept me alive in these last several years through these really hard times, and they've shown me what it is to learn to accept help and to just keep showing up.

然后所有这些事情都以一种非常美好的方式变得清晰起来。

And and then all these things kind of become clear in this really beautiful way.

就像，这感觉不像是什么高风险的大事，因为你总是知道下周还会再聚。

Like, it doesn't feel such a high stakes event because you always know there's another one next week.

所以你就能以任何状态出现并相聚，带着这种舒适感。

And so you sort of, like, just have this comfort of, like, showing up in whatever state you're in and being together.

食物也是如此。

And the food is also like that.

有时候我们想做些特别刺激、有挑战性或有趣的东西，可能在TikTok上看到什么就想试着做。

Like, sometimes we wanna do sort of something really exciting and and challenging or interesting, or we saw something on TikTok or whatever, and we wanna make it.

其他时候，我们就随便凑合手边现有的食材。

Other times, it's we all just cobble together what we have.

昨晚我们做了豆腐汉堡，然后去汉堡店买了薯条。

Last night, we had tofu burgers, and then we stopped at the burger place and bought french fries.

我们把汉堡店的薯条和自己做的豆腐汉堡配着吃。

And we had french fries from the burger place along with our homemade tofu burgers.

这样很棒。

And it's great.

最重要的是我们持续在做这件事，这才是最有影响力的部分。

It's that we continue doing it is the most sort of impactful and powerful part of it.

这真是太美好了。

That's so beautiful.

那么，我们来聊聊感恩节吧，因为从你描述的许多方面来看，感恩节完全不是那样的。

Well, let's talk about Thanksgiving because Thanksgiving is in so many ways not that at all when you're describing.

它更像是那种需要烹饪和聚会的活动，对很多人来说，感觉压力非常大。

It's so so much more of that kind of event cooking, event gathering where for a lot of people, it feels like the stakes are really high.

非常大。

Really high.

不过让我们先从食物开始，但不仅仅是感受。

But let's start with the food, but more than the feeling.

我们先来感受感恩节的氛围，但重点还是食物。

We'll get into the feeling of Thanksgiving, but the food.

听起来你的成长经历中，作为移民家庭的孩子，感恩节大餐未必是传统的美式感恩节餐。

It sounds like you grew up in a way that, you know, Thanksgiving meals were not necessarily the traditional American Thanksgiving coming from an child of immigrants, immigrant family.

你小时候的感恩节是怎么过的？

What was Thanksgiving like for you growing up?

当时餐桌上有什么

What was on the

我们家没有妈妈，只是像平常一样过。

We didn't have my mom, we just had, like, another day.

就是普通的一天

It was just another day

在我们家。

at our house.

星期四。

Thursday.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

不过我得说我们一直很喜欢吃火鸡三明治配蔓越莓酱，你知道的，那时候熟食店都能买到。

I will say we always liked a turkey sandwich with cranberry sauce, you know, which you can get at that time of year from delis and stuff.

所以并不是说我不知道感恩节。

And so it's not that I didn't know.

这在流行文化中很常见。

It's in popular culture.

你知道火鸡配蔓越莓酱的吃法。

You know about the turkey and cranberry sauce.

当然。

Of course.

但我自己其实并不怎么吃。

But I I wasn't eating it by any means.

我没有那种...嗯...

I don't have that, like, deep, like Uh-huh.

怀旧情结。

Nostalgia.

你知道的，我没有那种'每年全家都要吃栗子馅料'之类的家庭传统。

You know, I don't have that sense of, like, my family every year has this chestnut stuffing or whatever.

我没有那种记忆。

I don't have that.

我只想要餐桌上摆着美味的东西。

I just want things that taste good on the table.

是啊。

Yeah.

能找到个局外人挺好的，因为人们对感恩节餐桌上该有什么总是特别执着。

That's it's it's good to find a removed party because people feel very attached to the things that are supposed to be on a Thanksgiving table.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

那么从你的角度来看，哪些东西完全可以不要？

So from your perspective, what could totally go?

感恩节餐桌上，有哪些是你绝对无法接受的？

What are you what are you not down with on a Thanksgiving table?

嗯，从我的角度来看，作为一个厨师，同时我认为这与波斯背景有关，也许你会同意，就是我的味蕾偏好非常偏酸。

Well, from my perspective, just as a cook, and also, I think this has to do with being Persian, maybe you'll agree, is, like, I have a very acidic palate.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

你知道，

You know,

比如，我妈妈以前放学后会坐在柠檬树上吃柠檬当零食。

like, my mom used to sit in the lemon tree and snack on lemons after school.

我希望我的沙拉酱能酸到让我皱眉头。

I want my salad dressings to, like, make me pucker.

我喜欢在每样食物上都加一勺酸奶。

I like sort of, like, a scoop of yogurt on everything.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

所以吃传统的感恩节食物时，我常常惊讶于这些食物有多么——可以说——寡淡无味，而且利恩的食物非常淀粉质

And so eating, like, traditional Thanksgiving food, I am often sort of stunned by how, let's say, bland the food is, and Lean's very, like, starchy

嗯。

Mhmm.

咸的，甚至油腻的，但缺乏对比感。

Salty, even fatty, like but there's not a lot to, like, offer contrast.

而且大部分食物的口感都相当软烂。

And even all the textures are all pretty mushy for the most part.

所以我并不是说任何单独一道菜需要被剔除。

So it's not that I think any individual thing has to go.

我只是认为通常能让这些菜更好的方法是加入更多酸味元素和一些酥脆口感，让整道菜明亮鲜活起来，而不是这种单调到让人想着'我要吃土豆泥然后塞点东西'的状态。

I just think often what will make that better is introducing more forms of acid and some texture, some crunch to brighten it up and bring it to life so that it's not this, like, monotonous thing to be like, I'm gonna eat mashed potatoes and then stuff.

所有东西都有点软趴趴的。

Everything's kinda just mushy.

而且我知道我不是唯一这么想的人

So and I know I'm not the one that think most

大众菜肴。

people dish.

完全同意。

Totally.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得这是一道软绵绵、让人犯困的菜。

I think it's One mushy, sleepy thing.

如果你退一步想想就会发现，为什么大家吃什么都配那么多蔓越莓酱，因为整张桌子上只有它是带酸味的。

I think if you step back and think about it, you'll see, like, it's why everyone eats everything with so much cranberry sauce is it's the only acidic thing on the whole table.

所以我经常建议人们做炸鼠尾草青酱。

So often, suggest people make a fried sage salsa verde.

你只需要用橄榄油炸几片鼠尾草叶子，它们会变得非常酥脆。

So you can just fry a few leaves of sage and olive oil, and they get really crispy.

然后你只需用欧芹、红葱头、醋和橄榄油调个青酱，再把炸好的鼠尾草碎拌进去。

And then you just make, like, a green salsa with parsley and shallots and vinegar and olive oil and then crumble that sage in.

这样既保留了鼠尾草的感恩节风味，又能让菜品更清爽提神。

So it has that thanksgivingness with the sage, but it still can, like, brighten things up.

哦，这个主意真不错。

Oh, that's nice.

还有其他你特别喜欢带到感恩节餐桌上的东西吗？就是那种会让你觉得'这个会帮上忙'的。

Any other, like, favorite things that you like to bring to a Thanksgiving table where you're like, this will will help.

这能为我的味觉增添一些似乎缺失的风味。

This will add a little something that feels missing to my palate.

我觉得调味品简直就是礼物。

I mean, I basically just feel like condiments are the gift.

还有一种面包屑类的配料，我有时会用其他油炸香草比如迷迭香、鼠尾草和面包屑混合制作，撒上去增加酥脆感。

There's also, like, a breadcrumb sort of topping that I sometimes make with other fried like, fried rosemary and sage and breadcrumbs to sprinkle and and, like, crunch things up.

是啊。

Yeah.

听起来你是在追求口感层次。

You're looking for texture, it sounds like.

没错。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

我要告诉你一件让我困扰的事，Semin，那就是我喜欢烹饪。

I'll tell you one thing that I struggle with, Semin, which is I like cooking.

我喜欢烹饪。

I like cooking.

这让我感觉很好。

It makes me feel good.

我喜欢给我的小孩做吃的，看着他狼吞虎咽的样子，那种感觉太棒了——是我亲手做的，还让他觉得那么美味。

I like feeding my toddler something and watching him devour it, and it's like such a good feeling that I put that together and made it taste that way for him.

这感觉很好。

It's nice.

真的非常满足。

It's really satisfying.

给别人做饭真的非常满足。

It's really satisfying feeding other people.

但不知怎么的，我活到现在还没有一道拿手菜。

But I've like, I've somehow gotten this far in my life without having like, a signature dish.

哦，没关系的。

Oh, that's okay.

我觉得现在应该有了。

And I feel like I should by now.

我也不知道。

I don't know.

或者我感觉有种压力，就是要有那种能让家人说'你能带那个你做的菜来吗？'的拿手菜。

Or I feel like this pressure to have you know, the thing that you that you want other people in the family to be like, oh, would you bring that thing that you made?

我们真的很期待。

We really look forward to it.

我特别在感恩节前后会想这件事，因为现在我们终于要参与感恩节的轮流聚会，很快也要轮到我们主办了。

And I'm thinking about it particularly around Thanksgiving because now we're finally in the kind of Thanksgiving mix and rotation and soon to be part of the hosting rotation.

我只是觉得...我好像始终没能成长到能在餐桌上确立自己位置的那个阶段。

And I just I feel like I I never blossomed into this stage of of staking my place on the table.

对于我和有同样感受的人，你有什么建议吗？

Do you have advice for me and people who feel like me?

我觉得这种想法必须自然产生。

I feel like where that comes from is it has to come naturally.

我认为它应该源自于你自己喜欢的事物，无论是吃还是做。

And I think where it comes from is from your own like, something that makes you happy either to eat or to make.

所以我不认为你能从现在到感恩节这段时间里想出来。

And so I don't think you're gonna figure it out between now and this Thanksgiving.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我

But I

确实认为你可以花些时间思考，比如，什么能给我带来很多快乐，比如洗生菜和做一大份沙拉。

do think it's something you can spend some time thinking like, oh, what brings me a lot of pleasure is washing lettuces and assembling a big salad.

也许我接下来一年会尝试各种不同的沙拉酱，找出那种我想让孩子从小吃到大的、代表我们家特色的酱料。

So maybe I'm gonna spend the next year trying a bunch of different salad dressings and figuring out, like, what's the one that I want my kid to grow up with as, like, our house dressing.

然后爱上它。

And then Love that.

随着时间的推移，这将成为你的标志性特色。

That over time will become your signature thing.

或者，你知道的，在任何事情上。

Or, you know, in whatever thing.

我喜欢烤蔬菜，然后搭配一大勺拉布尼奶酪和其他配料，所以人们都很喜欢我烤蔬菜的方式。

I love roasting vegetables and combining them with, you know, a big dollop of labneh and this, that, and the other, and so people love the way I roast vegetables.

但我认为这必须是你真心愿意去做的事情，而不是决定要——比如——致力于做馅饼皮并成为馅饼冠军，你知道的，在

But I think it has to be something that you genuinely are moved to do rather than deciding to, like, dedicate yourself to making pie crust and becoming a pie champion, you know, at the

州博览会

state fair

之类的。

or something.

这就是让我感到非常畏惧的地方。

That's what feels very intimidating about it to me.

比如说，我需要选定一个食谱。

Like, oh, I need to, like, choose the recipe.

我认为这才是问题的核心所在。

I think that's what it really comes down to.

在我脑海里，感觉像是要从一个食谱开始。

In my head, it feels like it starts with a recipe or something.

我不认为应该从食谱开始。

I don't think it starts with a recipe.

我觉得应该从一种渴望开始，然后通过不断练习。

I think it starts with a desire and, like and then I think you practice.

所以我会建议选择你最喜爱吃或制作的最简单食物，然后逐渐尝试不同做法，直到找到属于你的方式。

So I would actually choose one of the simplest things that you maybe like to eat or make, and then just sort of try different ways of doing that over time until you find your way.

而且我觉得有了小孩——尤其是年幼的孩子——会是个很棒的灵感来源，因为你可能会想起小时候妈妈做的某些食物，那种'我就喜欢妈妈做X的方式'的感觉。

And I think also the part where you have a kid, a little kid, is is a really cool sort of inspiration for it because then I mean, you probably have things that your mom made you when you were little that you are like, I love the way my mom does x.

这是一种传承，现在轮到你来为下一代创造这种记忆了。

So it's this way where, like, you now get to do that to the next generation.

没错。

Yeah.

所以它源自于你。

So it comes from you.

你知道的，它源自于你。

You know, it comes from you.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这种思考方式很好。

That's a good way to think of it.

你谈了很多关于如何通过放下聚会中的一些巨大压力来释放快乐。

You've talked a lot about how, like, letting go of some of the big pressures around gatherings is part of what is gonna unlock the joy for you.

没错。

Yes.

这是很棒的建议。

Which is great advice.

实际操作中这会是什么样子？

What does that look like practically?

你会建议人们思考或关注什么，或者如何重新训练他们的思维方式？

What do you like to tell people to think about or focus on or or retrain their brain to think about?

因为听到建议是一回事。

Because it's one thing to hear that advice.

真正尝试采纳并付诸行动又是另一回事。

It's another thing to to really try and take it and act on it.

对有些人来说确实很难。

Just hard for some people.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这可以分为两部分。

I think if there's, like, two pieces to this.

首先，我认为要意识到你可能不应该事事亲力亲为，事实上，让别人参与贡献会带来快乐。

So one piece, I think, is realizing you probably shouldn't do everything yourself, and actually, it brings people joy to contribute.

但如果你像我一样是个控制狂，还想掌控菜单，你可以用电子表格来安排。

But if you're like me and you're a control freak and you still wanna be in charge of the menu, you can do the thing where you have a spreadsheet.

你可以分配好菜品，然后让大家从你预先指定的菜中选择要做的。

You know, you assign the dishes, and then you let people choose which one are your preassigned dishes to make Yeah.

但我确实认为，让人们参与贡献，让他们有成就感和'这是我参与做的饭菜'的感觉很棒。

But I do think, like, letting people contribute so they have a sense of, you know, so that they have their own sense of accomplishment or that their own this was their meal that they got to make is great.

不是每个人都喜欢做饭，所以还有其他方式让人们参与进来。

And not everyone likes to cook, so there are other ways to involve people.

比如感恩节时，问题可能是'大家要坐在哪里？'

You know, sometimes, like, at Thanksgiving, the problem is, where is everyone gonna sit?

饭前我们要做什么？

What are we gonna do before the meal?

饭后我们要做什么？

What are we gonna do after the meal?

谁来洗碗？

Who's gonna do the dishes?

人们还有很多其他方式可以出力帮忙，让事情更顺畅，我认为这非常重要。

There are many other ways that people can contribute and help streamline things, and I think that's really important.

我还觉得你可以直接少做点。

I also think you can just do less.

我认为你可以准备更精简的菜单。

I think you can have a more streamlined menu.

你可以减少菜品数量。

You can have fewer things.

有些东西可以直接买现成的，或者做简化版本。

You can buy some of the things or just make simpler versions of them.

所以这些就是我想到的实际简化流程的方法。

So those are ways I think to sort of practically make it a little bit simpler.

另外我认为，就烹饪知识和技巧而言，很大程度上取决于提前规划、早点开始准备，并清楚列出你想上哪些菜，然后从计划用餐时间倒推准备步骤——我甚至会提前到前一个周末，看看哪些工作可以预先完成。

I also think I also think just as far as, like, cooking know how and skill, so much of it is about being organized and starting earlier and looking really clearly at what it is that you wanna serve and sort of working backwards from whatever time you plan to sit down at the table to I would even work as far backwards as to, like, the weekend before and see what things you can start doing in advance.

要知道现在大多数火鸡都是冷冻的，解冻就需要足足两天时间。

You know, even most turkeys now are frozen, which means they need, like, a good two days to defrost.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

没错。

Yeah.

对我来说，我喜欢给火鸡调味。

And then for me, I like to season my turkey.

如果要做火鸡，我通常会选择酪乳盐水腌制，但即便不用这种方法，也需要两天时间确保盐分充分渗透——解冻两天加腌制两天总共需要四天。

If I am gonna have one, I I like to you know, I do often the buttermilk brine, but even if not the buttermilk brine, that's like a two day process to make sure you've given the salt enough time to penetrate all the way inside, which the two days of defrosting and the two days of brining is four days.

这意味着周四的晚餐，你得从周日就开始准备。

That means for a Thursday dinner, you need to start on Sunday.

而这还只是整餐中的一道菜。

And that's just one piece of your meal.

比如要是打算自制馅饼，最好提前一周做好饼皮面团并冷冻保存。

Things like if you're gonna make your pie from scratch, do yourself a favor and make your pie dough the week before and keep it in the freezer.