蒂姆·格罗弗

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Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to Armchair Expert.

我是丹·谢泼德。今天我们有一位非常有趣的嘉宾，我们将一窥迈克尔·乔丹、科比·布莱恩特和德维恩·韦德等世界级运动员的幕后故事，了解他们在嘉宾蒂姆·格罗弗指导下展现出的心理与体能表现。蒂姆·格罗弗是心理与体能表现教练，曾与顶尖运动员合作，并出现在我们最爱的纪录片《最后之舞》中。请尽情享受与蒂姆·格罗弗的对话。本播客由FX电视台的《英语老师》赞助播出。

I'm Dan Shepherd. We have a very interesting guest today, and we get to take a peek behind the curtain of the Michael Jordans and the Kobe Bryant's and the Dwayne Wade's of the world and see what kind of mental and physical performance they have enacted through the guidance of our guest, Tim Grover. Tim Grover is a mental and physical performance coach, and he's worked with the best of the best and was featured in our favorite documentary, The Last Dance. So please enjoy Tim Grover. This podcast is supported by FX's English teacher.

我超爱《英语老师》。

I love English teacher.

我也超爱这剧。

I love this show too.

去年广受好评的剧集回归，继续讲述埃文、格温和马基如何争夺学生们分散的注意力。《时尚》杂志称其首季为喜剧大师课——这确实是我去年最爱的喜剧。

Last year's critically acclaimed series returns to follow Evan, Gwen, and Marky as they vie for their students' divided attention. See why Cosmopolitan called its premier season a master class of comedy. Again, this was really my favorite comedy of last year.

我们还在剧里被点名了

And we got a shout out on that

这剧必须看

show, which is gotta

观看《英语老师》。FX电视台的《英语老师》，全新剧集每周四在FX播出。所有剧集现已在Hulu上线。本节目由Quince赞助。通过Quince，您能以合理的价格获得奢华的基础款服饰。

watch English Teacher. FX's English Teacher, all new Thursdays on FX. All episodes now streaming on Hulu. We are supported by Quince. With Quints, you can get luxury basics at prices that make sense.

拥有所有好东西：高品质面料、经典剪裁、适合温暖天气的轻薄叠穿单品，且无需花费巨额。我昨天刚盯着到货的一箱Quince商品发呆。克里斯汀一直在疯狂下单。我们都爱收到的每件商品。

Get all the good stuff, high quality fabrics, classic fits, and lightweight layers for warm weather without dropping a fortune. I just was staring at a box of quints that arrived yesterday. Kristen's been firing off orders. We all love everything that arrives.

我订购了一些床单，真的非常非常棒的床单。它们也很可爱，是条纹设计的，哦，还有这种奶油色条纹。我太爱Quince了，说实话感觉像发现了生活窍门。

I ordered some sheets, some really, really amazing sheets. They're also so cute. They they're striped. Oh, They have this like cream stripe. It is I love Quince and I feel like it's a hack, honestly.

品质如此出色，价格却这么合理。如果需要给任何人买礼物，我觉得Quince是不二之选。

It's like the quality is so good and it's so reasonable. If you need to get anyone a present or anything, I think Quince is the place.

无需再寻寻觅觅。Quince提供您会反复穿着的衣橱必备单品——从仅50美元的舒适羊绒和棉质毛衣，透气流动针织 Polo 衫，到神奇兼顾周末休闲与正式晚餐的轻薄长裤。您在Quince订购的所有商品，价格仅为同类品牌的一半。通过直接与顶级工匠合作并省去中间环节，Quince让您无需溢价即可拥有奢华单品。用Quince经久耐穿的经典单品保持永恒格调。

Look no further. Quince has closet staples you'll wanna reach for over and over, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters from just $50, breathable flow knit polos, and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. And everything you're gonna order from Quince is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury pieces without the markup. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from Quince.

访问 quince.com/dax 享订单免运费和365天退换服务。重复一遍：quince.com/dax 获取免运费和全年无休退换权益。网址 quince.com/dax。蒂姆，你好吗？你现在在哪里和我们通话？

Go to quince.com/dax for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com/dax to get free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/dax. Tim, how are you? Where are we talking to you at?

来自芝加哥。哦对，你现在是芝加哥人了。你父母在那儿是做什么的？

From Chicago. Oh yeah. Now you're from Chicago. What did your parents do there?

我的父母其实都从事医疗行业。我母亲是执业护士，父亲是西北大学的教授。

Both my parents were actually in the medical field. My mom was a nurse practitioner and my dad was a professor at Northwestern University.

真的吗？他是教医学的。没错。你们家人关系很亲密吗？

Oh really? He taught medicine. Correct. And were you guys tight?

非常亲密。是的。莫妮卡知道印度家庭通常关系特别紧密。我父母也都是印度人。

Very close. Yeah. Monica knows Indian families are extremely tight. Both my parents are Indian also.

我猜你是北印度人应该没错吧？是的。好的。你父母来美国多久了？他们自己是第二代移民还是...？

Would I be right to guess that you're Northern Indian? Yes. Okay. How long had your parents been here or are they themselves second generation or?

不，他们是第一代移民。我们实际上是从印度到英国，再从英国到这里的。全家先从印度搬到英国。后来因为美国当时护士严重短缺，母亲比父亲更容易找到工作，所以她先来了美国。基本上我和哥哥就暂时留在英国。

No, that was first generation here. We actually went from India to England and then from England to Hair. So all of us moved from India to England. And then my mom came over to The States because there was a huge nursing shortage in The States as she was able to find work a lot easier than my dad was. So basically my brother and myself, we stayed back in England.

我就是在英国出生的。我们在那里住了四年。等母亲在这边安定下来后，父亲才把我和哥哥接过来。

That's where I was born. So we were there for four years. And then when my mom got settled over here, my dad brought my brother and myself over here.

话说，你有非常明显的芝加哥口音，不知道你自己有没有注意到。

Well, and you have a very obvious Chicago accent that maybe you're aware of or not aware of.

嗯，非常感谢，因为大家总说这是纽约口音。我就说，不，这不是纽约口音，这是芝加哥口音。

Well, thank you so much because everyone always says it's a New York accent. I was like, no, it's not a New York accent. It's a Chicago accent.

我最近采访了莫妮卡的爸爸。我说，有个这么典型美国化的女儿感觉奇怪吗？就像个啦啦队长，完全符合人们对美国少女的所有刻板印象。我在想，你爸爸是不是也觉得你带芝加哥口音很有趣。我觉得要是我搬到某个地方，我的孩子也会有那种口音。

I recently interviewed Monica's dad. And I said, was it so weird for you to have this daughter who was so prototypically American, like a cheerleader? All the stereotypical ways you would think of an American teenage girl. And I wonder if your dad, yeah, gets a kick out of you having this Chicago accent. I feel like if I moved somewhere, my kids had that.

我会觉得挺有意思的。

I would be amused by it.

这很有趣。我父母都说那种不标准的英语。他们跟我们交流时半英半旁遮普语。当他们真的生气时，就全是印度话，全是旁遮普语。虽然我不会说这门语言，但天啊，我完全能听懂每句话。

It was funny. Both my parents speak like the broken English. Like, they communicate with us half English, half Punjabi. And when they were really upset, it was all Indian, all Punjabi. And I don't speak the language, but boy, did I understand everything.

我妈妈也是这样。完全一样。她不会说，但什么都能听懂。

That was my mom too. Same. She can't speak it, but she can understand everything.

是啊。

Yeah.

情况。

Situation.

她知道如何在不同场合挨骂

She knows how to get yelled at in

是吗？嗯。

it? Mhmm.

哦，确实。

Oh yeah.

那么你的职业道路是怎样的？我知道你打过竞技篮球，甚至被招募去大学打球。你在大学主修什么？我猜你可能被施压学医。

So what was your career path? I know you played basketball competitively and you even got recruited to play in college. What did you major in in college? I'm sure you were probably pressured into going into medicine.

哦，当然。听着，我不知道现在情况如何，但我总说如果你是印度父母的儿子或女儿，职业选择只有两种。医生是一个，医生就是全部。偶尔他们会说，如果你想当律师，也可以当律师。

Oh, of course. Listen, I don't know how it is now, but I always say that if you're a son or daughter of Indian parents, you have two options as a career. A doctor is one and a doctor is That's it. Every now and then they'll be like, yeah, if you want to be a lawyer, you can be a lawyer.

我正想说，到了莫妮卡这一代，选择扩展到了律师。

I was just going to say it got expanded to lawyer in Monica's generation.

是的。没错。每一代人都在扩展选择。律师之后，又有了工程师。

Yes. Yeah. With each generation, it got expanded. Then after the lawyer, there was engineering.

技术。是啊。

Tech. Yeah.

是的。没错。但当我成长过程中面临这两个选择时，这很有趣。我拥有运动科学硕士学位和运动机能学学士学位，研究肌肉运动及锻炼时身体的变化。当我告诉父母我不想上医学院时，他们很不高兴。

Yes. Yeah. But when I was growing up to one of those two, so it was funny. I have a master's degree in exercise science and a bachelor's degree in kinesiology, which is the movement of muscles and what happens to the body when you exercise and work out. So when I told my parents that I didn't wanna go to medical school, they were not happy about it.

他们说，那你打算做什么？我说，我要训练职业运动员。我爸的反应是，有意思。他们根本不懂这是什么意思。在他们——

They said, well, what are you gonna do? I said, I'm gonna train professional athletes. And my dad was like, interesting. They did not know what that meant. In their

那个年代确实情有可原，这不是个常见职业。如今人们很熟悉精英运动教练的概念，但在那时这还没进入大众认知。

defense in that era, it wasn't a known thing. Like, now people are very accustomed to the idea of an elite performance coach. But back then, that wasn't in the zeitgeist.

完全不是。他们唯一能联想到的就是体育老师——无意冒犯体育老师——但这就是他们的全部认知。我爸说，听着，我们还是希望你去参加医学院入学考试MCAT。我第一次故意考砸了。成绩出来时我爸说：演得不错。

Not at all. The only thing they could equate it to was being a gym teacher and no offense to gym teachers, but that's all they had. My dad said, well, listen, we still want you to take the entrance exam for med school, which is the MCAT. And I took it the first time and I totally bombed on purpose. And when we got the results, my dad goes, nice try.

他早就料到了。他已经帮我报名了重考。我重考成绩不错，被录取了。

He was, I was already ready for this. He had already registered for me to take it over. And I took it over. I did fairly well. I got accepted.

最终我不得不告诉他们我不去。直到今天想起来都觉得好笑——尽管父亲已不在人世——在他们眼中，正经工作应该有固定工时、双周发薪、带薪休假和退休计划。而我的工作完全相反：需要自己开拓业务、寻找客户，永远不知道下一笔收入在哪里。但当我服务的客户群体逐渐明确后，他们短暂地原谅了我。

And then I finally had to tell them I'm not going. And it was funny even to this day, even though my dad is no longer with us to them, a real job is where you have set hours, you get a paycheck every two weeks, you get paid vacation and you have a retirement plan. And what I do is the complete opposite. It's go out, find the business, find a clientele, don't know where your next paycheck is coming from. But when I finally realized who I was working with and what my clientele were, they forgave me briefly.

这太好笑了。

That's so funny.

莫妮卡，该你发言了

Monica, should you speak

嗯，其实我有个问题。这是你的原姓氏吗？

well, I actually just had a question. Is that your given last name?

格罗弗是我的原姓氏。是的。

Grover is my given last name. Yes.

有被缩写过吗？

Was it shortened at any point?

从没被缩写过，妈妈。我的名字被缩写过。所以实际上是蒂姆·迪普。拼作T I M D E E P，姓氏格罗弗。

It was not shortened at any point, mom. My first name has been shortened. So it's actually Tim Deep. So it's t I m d e e p sing Grover.

明白了。我的姓氏是被缩写的，

Got it. My last name is shortened,

我祖父把它缩短了。所以我只是好奇。

that my grandfather shortened it. So I just wondered.

我父亲戴着头巾，但他告诉母亲，他是第一个说‘我希望我的家人走不同道路’的人。我会尊重您的意愿。我不会剪头发。我会戴头巾，但不会这样养育我的孩子。他是第一个叛逆者，而我把这条路走得更远。

My dad wore the turban, but he told his mother that he was the first one that said, I want my family to have a different path. I will respect your wishes. I will not cut my hair. I will wear a turban, but I am not gonna raise my children that way. He was the first rebel and then I took it even farther.

嗯，某种程度上这可能是你基因里的东西，他那样做了，然后你延续了下去。但是，莫妮卡，我以为你会插话，因为莫妮卡的故事在这方面出奇地相似。她去了好莱坞，偶尔会给父母打电话说，我们明天要采访比尔·盖茨。他们就会说，哦，这还挺酷的。然后我们说还要采访希拉里。

Well, it's probably in your genetics on some level that he was that way and then you carried on. But, Monica, I thought you were gonna pipe up because Monica's story's so darn similar in that. She went to Hollywood and then she'll call her parents occasionally and be like, we're interviewing Bill Gates tomorrow. And they're like, oh, this is kind of cool. And then we're interviewing Hillary.

哦，好吧。这个职业道路似乎还不错。然后父亲把财务交给她，心想，老天，这居然行得通。

Oh, alright. This career path seems to be not so shabby. And then the father hand her the finances and he's like, by God, this worked out.

是啊。尽管我多次试图让父母在那个时代去看芝加哥公牛队的比赛，体验现场氛围，他们总是说，不，我们只想在电视上看。他们就是只想看电视转播。

Yeah. As often as I tried to get both my parents to go to a Chicago bulls game during that era and see everything, they were like, no. We just wanna watch it on TV. They just wanna watch it on TV.

他们错过了。

They missed out.

他们错过了很多。

They missed out on a lot.

这很印度风格啊。莫妮卡和我经常争论，我说你家人怎么可能不想来看大家为你鼓掌什么的。她却说你不懂我们的规矩。或者我说，今天给你爸打个电话说爱他。她会回答，他会以为我快死了。

So Indian of them, though. Monica and I get to all these debates where I'm like, there's no way your family doesn't wanna come and see everyone clap for you and stuff. And she's like, you don't understand how it works. Or I'll say I'll say, call your dad and tell him you love him today. And she'll go, he'll think I'm dying.

他不会觉得开心的。我就说，好吧。

He won't enjoy that. And I'm like, okay.

是啊。首先，出什么事了？

Yeah. Firstly, what's wrong?

对。那你是怎么开始和乔丹在公牛队共事的呢？

Yes. So how did you find your way to working with Jordan on the Bulls?

我硕士毕业后唯一能找到的工作是在当地健身俱乐部上班。那时候最低工资是3.35美元。别忘了我是硕士学历，虽然满脑子知识却没机会实践。于是我开始在健身俱乐部工作，观察不同教练的训练方式，逐渐形成自己的风格，最终以能真正出效果的教练身份建立了口碑。那时候可没有社交媒体。

So I graduated with my master's degree and the only job that was available was working at a local health club. So back then the minimum wage was $3.35 Remember I had a master's degree, but I had all this knowledge in my head, but I didn't get a chance to actually practice it. So I started to work in a local health club and just started out like watching different trainers do their thing and kind of put my own spin on things and really built a reputation as being a trainer at that health club that really got results. Back then there was no social media. There wasn't any social media.

所以口碑就是你的广告。怎么获得更多客户？你得在别人身上展现效果，而不是你自己。我不仅关注他们的训练，还包括营养、生活方式，以及他们不和我训练时的所有行为细节。

So your word-of-mouth was your advertisement. So how do you get more business? You have to show results on somebody else, not yourself. You have to show results on somebody else. So I would take the interest not only in their workouts, their nutrition part of it, their lifestyles, all the things they had to do and didn't do when they weren't working out with me, everything.

我特别注重细节，因为我想如果能让大多数客户见效，其他人就会注意到他们的变化。他们会问'你跟谁训练的？'最终我成了俱乐部收入最高的教练之一。我的客户有单纯想减肥的，产后恢复的，各种想改善健康的人。

So I paid attention to a lot of details because I was like, okay, if I can show results on majority of my clients, everybody else is going to see what's going on with them. And they're going to ask who are you working out with? And I ended up being one of the highest grossing trainers in that club. I worked with these were individuals that just wanted to lose weight, get better. There was a lot of post pregnancy.

那是个网球俱乐部，人们想为打网球做准备。我是个特别注重细节的人。

It was a tennis club. So people wanted to get ready for tennis. I was an individual that like really paid attention to the details.

所以你建立了声誉，然后这如何为你打开机会之门？

So you built up a reputation and then how does that open the door?

事情是这样的，我在报纸上看到一篇小文章，讲的是不同运动员的训练等等。我当时就想，你知道吗？这就是我要做的。我要寄出14封信。NBA篮球队的名单上有15名球员。

So what happened was I saw a small article in the newspaper about different athletes working out and so forth. I said, you know what? This is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna send out 14 letters. There's 15 players on a NBA basketball roster.

我说，你知道吗？我在芝加哥。我要给芝加哥公牛队的每个球员寄14封信，告诉他们，嘿，这就是我做的。这些是我能取得的效果，以及我在训练行业的独特之处。那时候，没有电子邮件，没有手机，什么都没有。

I said, you know what? I'm in Chicago. I'm gonna send out 14 letters to each player on the Chicago Bulls saying, hey, this is what I do. These are the results I can get, how I'm unique to the training industry. So back then, again, no emails, no cell phones, none of that stuff.

所以我真的写了信，寄到公牛队的训练设施，每封信上都写了球员的名字，贴了邮票。唯一没寄信的人是迈克尔·乔丹，因为我想，好吧，这家伙太有天赋了，太厉害了，肯定已经有人为他工作了。那些信实际上送到了不同球员的更衣室。

So I literally wrote the letters and I addressed it to the Bulls practice facilities, put everybody's name on the letter, stamped it. The only person I did not send a letter to was Michael Jordan because I was like, okay, this guy is so talented. He's so good. He already has somebody working with him. So those letters actually made it to the lockers of the different players.

我能快速问一下这是哪一年吗？

Can I quickly ask what year this was?

那是1988年或89年。

This was 1988 or '89.

好的。我认为这与背景相关。这类情况早在那类运动员开始进行重量训练等练习的时代之前。那时这类训练才刚刚兴起。对吧？

Okay. And then I think it's relevant for context. This kind of predates the era where athletes of that variety weight trained and stuff. That was just kind of starting. Correct?

比如现在你看体育运动，F1赛车手整天都在锻炼，像摩托车越野赛骑手一样，大家都认识到了它的价值。但那时候他们相信在球场上就能获得足够的运动量，对吧？他们没想加强任何方面。

Like, now you look at sports and Formula One drivers work out all day long, like motocross riders, everyone has recognized the value of it. But back then they believed they got plenty of exercise on the court, right? They weren't trying to amp up anything.

是的。你就像，好吧，如果你在训练中跑步，那基本上就是你的锻炼了。特别是在篮球中，没有重量训练和体能训练，实际上会妨碍你的投篮。它会让你变慢。这些都是我不得不克服的一些事情。

Yeah. You just like, okay, if you run and in practice, that's basically your workout. And especially in basketball, was just like no weight training and conditioning, it's actually going to hinder your shot. It's going to slow you down. And that was some of the stuff that I had to kind of overcome.

我说，不，实际上有一种方法可以增强你的能力。它能提升你的跳跃方式、跑步方式、投篮方式。所以我没有收到任何回复。于是迈克尔从别人的储物柜里拿出那封信，读完后交给了球队的体能训练师，说，嘿，了解一下这家伙是干什么的。

And I said, no, there's actually a way to do this where it enhances your ability. It enhances the way you jump, way you run, the way you shoot a basketball. So I didn't get any reply back. So Michael reached into a locker of somebody else's and pulled the letter out and read it and gave it to the team's athletic trainer and said, hey, find out what this guy's about.

哇。

Wow.

抱歉。首先，这是有史以来最不可能的故事。其次，我要说，不客气。因为他只想因为底特律活塞队而等待训练。

I'm sorry. First of all, that's the most improbable story ever. And then secondly, here's where I will say, you're welcome. Because he only wanted to wait train because of the Detroit Pistons.

所以有个有趣的事。迈克尔想要变得更强壮的原因之一是因为他在底特律活塞队受到的肢体对抗。所以在奥运会期间，我有机会见到查克·戴利，因为他是梦之队的教练。我走上前去感谢他，他说，这家伙是谁？我说，都是因为你。

So here's a funny thing. So one of the reasons Michael wanted to get stronger is because of physical abuse he was taking for the Detroit Pistons. So during the Olympics time, I got a chance to meet Chuck Daly because Chuck Daly was the coach of the dream team. And I went up to him and I thanked him and he goes, who is this guy? I said, because of you.

我说过，我的职业生涯因你而起。但你说得完全正确。这就是为什么迈克尔当时说，嘿，我需要优势。我在忍受这支球队的身体对抗，我想变得更强。所以基本上，那位运动训练师，也就是当时的队医，三个月里他们不断用各种问题轰炸我，考验我的理念。

I said, I have my career because of you. But you're absolutely right. That's why Michael was like, hey, I need an edge. I'm taking this physical abuse from this team and I wanna get stronger. So basically the athletic trainer, the team physician at that time for three months, they just hammered me with questions about my philosophy.

如果确认我言之有物，他们就会让我参加测试和各种考验。当他们终于说‘好吧’时，我根本不知道他们是在为谁面试我，完全被蒙在鼓里。

If I knew what I was talking about, they'd give me tests to take and every kind of thing. And when they was like, okay, And I didn't know who they were interviewing me for. I did not have a clue.

而且，我无法想象一位在职运动训练师会欢迎外来意见。如果我是那个位置的人，这感觉会有点被拆台。所以你确实是逆水行舟。

Also, I can't imagine someone that's been employed as the athletic trainer is welcoming of some outside opinion. Like, that would feel a little bit undermining if I were in that position. So you uphill battle for sure.

确实如此。但那时候运动训练师并不负责力量和体能训练部分，不涉及运动表现提升。有专人负责运动表现，而训练师的工作只是处理伤病，确保球员

I did. But back then the athletic trainer was not the individual that did the strength and conditioning part, did not do the sports performance. There was somebody else that did the sports performance and the athletic trainer back then job was just to handle injuries. Keep them

保持柔韧性，做个按摩。对，没错。

limber, get a massage. Yes. Yeah.

是的，就是这类工作。经过三个月这种折磨人的来回折腾后，他们告诉我：‘嘿，我们想让你见见客户’，约在凌晨1:30，还给了地址。我依然不知道他们说的是谁。于是我按地址找过去——

Yes. It was that kind of things. So after about three months through this, going through this grueling back and forth, they tell me, Hey, we want you to meet the client at like it was 01:30 and here's the address. I still don't know who they were talking to. So I get to the address.

我住在市区，而那个地址在郊区。我按响门铃，开门的竟是迈克尔·乔丹。好吧，让我们倒带说说这事。

I lived in the city. This was out in one of the suburbs. So I ring the doorbell and Michael Jordan opens the door. Okay, back up.

当你驶近这栋房子时，你肯定在想，

As you're pulling up to this house, you're definitely thinking,

不，那时候还不是那栋房子。后来的房子才有那个大门，上面标着23号。你会觉得，好吧。不，不，这个，就像我说的，我甚至不用通过安检什么的。

No, well, it wasn't that house back then. The later house has got the big gate. It's got a 23 on it. You'd be like, okay. No, no, This one, I mean, like I said, I didn't have to go through security or anything.

直接走到门口。那可能是迈克尔·乔丹最后一次亲自应门了

Just like walked up to the door. That might be the last time Michael Jordan actually answered

然后

the And

最疯狂的部分来了。大家都知道迈克尔是耐克的人，你知道的，有乔丹品牌。但我当时穿了一双匡威。

here's the crazy part about it. Everybody knows how Michael is a Nike guy, you know, with the brand Jordan. I had a pair of Converse on.

哦豁。我想我们在《最后之舞》里了解到，最初他们打算签的合约，我记得是跟匡威的吧？

Uh-oh. I think we learned in last dance that was initially though the deal they were gonna sign. Wasn't it with Converse, I think?

其实他最初想选阿迪达斯，但阿迪达斯拒绝了。然后匡威也拒绝了。

Well, he wanted to go with Adidas first and Adidas said no. And then Converse also said no.

然后耐克终于同意了。250亿美元就这样到手了。

And then Nike finally said yes. $25,000,000,000 later.

是啊。我当时就想，好吧，我得把鞋脱了。进门前我把鞋脱了。结果袜子破了两大洞。我就想，好吧，这次面试真是顺利得不得了。

Yeah. And I was like, alright, I better take off the shoes. I take off the shoes before I go in the house. And of course I got two big holes in my socks. So I'm like, okay, this interview is going really, really well.

所以我把鞋留在门口。我们下楼聊了大约一小时。我向他阐述了我的理念、我能做的事以及这对他有什么好处。他的反应是——我在《赢的法则》这本书里提到过——他说‘这听起来不太对劲’。

So I left the shoes at the door. We went downstairs. We spoke for about an hour. I told him what my philosophy was, what I could do, how this would be advantageous to him. And his comment was, and I talked about this in a book winning, he says, this don't sound right.

我说：给我三十天时间。

And I said, give me thirty days.

当时有哪些具体内容让他觉得不对劲？你提出了哪些想法？

What were a couple of the components of that that stood out as being wrong to him? What were some of your ideas?

我告诉他如何跳得更高、跑得更快，如何减少受伤风险，减轻关节和韧带压力。但他只想着变强壮。我当时说：乔丹先生，在增强力量之前，我们先解决那些反复困扰你的小伤病。因为从没人见过像他这样运动的运动员。

Well, I told him like how he'll be able to jump higher, how he'll be able to run faster, how he'll be able to reduce his injury, the stress on his joints, the stress on his ligaments. And he just wanted to get stronger. And I said, back then I was like, Mr. Jordan, before we get stronger, let's address all the little nagging injuries that happen to you all the time. Because nobody had seen an athlete do the things that he did.

他总有些小伤——腹股沟拉伤、腘绳肌拉伤、小腿时不时抽筋。我说我们先解决这些问题。只要解决这些，你自然就会成为更出色的球员。因为届时你的身体机能将处于更高水平。

And he had constant little pulls here, a groin pill, a hamstring strain, a calf pull here and there. I said, let's address those things. If we address those things alone, you're automatically going to be a better player. You're automatically be a better athlete because now your body is functioning at a higher percentage.

我猜他的大部分伤病都是由于长期锻炼同一肌群导致失衡，那些未得到充分锻炼的较弱肌肉最终不堪重负？这是你当时的考虑之一吗？

Can I guess that's something that I would imagine most of his injuries were the results of working these same muscle groups and there being some imbalance and that the weaker ones that weren't conditioned would have to give way? Was that part of the thought you had?

达克斯，完全正确。有些肌肉过度使用，有些则锻炼不足。于是我制定了计划，说给我三十天时间——结果三十天变成了十五年。哇哦。后来我们赢得了六次总冠军，金牌，应有尽有。

Dax, that's absolutely right. And some muscles were being overworked, some muscles were being underworked. And so I put a plan together and I said, give me thirty days, thirty days turned into fifteen years. Wow. And six championships later, gold medals, everything.

这简直是让你一举成名的客户啊！天呐。从那次成功之后，同行里大多数人都会想和你合作吧？

I mean, you wanna talk about a client to put you on the map. My God. I mean, I imagine from the success of that onward, most people would want to work with you that are in that line of work.

是的。但有件趣事：迈克尔总说需要他批准。当别人问他能否跟我训练时，他说听着，我付钱不是让他训练我，是让他别训练其他人。

Yes. But here's a crazy thing. So Michael always has this saying they had to get his permission. So when they would ask him whether they could work with me, he was like, listen, I don't pay him to train me. I pay him not to train anybody else.

真精明。

That's smart.

没错。在那之前多年里，他不允许我训练其他人。后来终于松口说休赛期可以接客户。我们还搞了个早餐俱乐部，他邀请队友来一起训练。于是斯科蒂·皮蓬和罗恩·哈珀都成了会员。

Yeah. So for many years up to that point, he didn't allow me to work out with other individuals. And then he finally loosened up a little bit and said during the off season, I could have clients. And then we had this thing called the breakfast club where he would invite other teammates to come work out with him. So Scottie Pippen became a member of the breakfast club and Ron Harper became a member of the breakfast club.

每天早晨这三人一起训练，完成大量相同项目。我会针对每个人的不同问题进行指导，但他们互相监督。迈克尔说过：我需要这些队友保持巅峰状态才能夺冠。

So every morning those three individuals would work out together and they would do a lot of the similar things. And then I would address different issues that each one of those have, but they held each other accountable and they knew that Michael said, I need these individuals to be playing at the highest level in order to achieve these championships.

天啊，这让我想起了今年我喜欢的另一部纪录片，关于老虎伍兹的。当老虎暂时休息时，他的球童问是否可以替别人背包，他答应了，但之后就再也没联系过那个球童。真是令人心碎。

Boy, I'm reminded of the other doc I love this year, which was the Tiger Woods doc and that his caddy, when Tiger took some time off, his caddy asked him if he could caddy for someone else. He said yes and then he never called them again. So heartbreaking.

正是这些人。

It is these individuals.

他们不会留下任何疑问的空间，对吧？他们会竭尽所能获取优势。

They're not leaving anything up for question. Right? They're gonna do every conceivable thing to have an advantage.

人们常说，当你在体育、商业或其他领域达到那种顶尖水平时，追求的不是提升1%，而是0.0001%。以前有人问我，和迈克尔·乔丹合作还能有多大进步空间？我说，对于这种天赋异禀的人，哪怕只是微小百分比的提升，都需要极其专业的指导。我自己也是个好胜心极强的人。

Everyone says when you're that good, when you're that talented, and this is in sports business, whatever it is, you're not trying to get 1% better. You're trying to get 0.0001 better. And people used to say to me those like, well, you're working with Michael Jordan, how much improvement is it? I was like, when there's an individual that that's talented to show just a small percentage of improvement, you really, really have to know what you're doing. I'm a very competitive individual myself.

总有人说'哦，你帮乔丹做到了'，那去帮别人试试。好吧，我去指导了科比。他们又说'你帮过乔丹和科比了'，再去辅导其他人看看。

People would be like, oh, you did it for Michael. Well, go do it for somebody else. All right. Well, I went and did it for Kobe. Well, you did it for Michael and Kobe, go do it for somebody else.

于是我指导了德维恩·韦德。我想向所有人证明这绝非偶然，我并非昙花一现，就像你们两位做播客一样。每期节目你们都为自己设定标准，而你们不想只是达标，而是抓住每个机会超越这个标准。

I did it for Dwayne Wade. I wanted to prove to everybody that this just was not a one off. I was not a one hit wonder similar to what you two do. Each podcast, you set a standard for yourselves, and you wanna not meet that standard. You wanna exceed that standard every opportunity you get.

哈，我只希望能偶尔接近标准线。所以我才成不了冠军啊。

Well, I'm hoping to just hit around the mark sometimes. But that's why I'm not a champ.

他没有赢家的心态。

He doesn't have a winner's heart.

我没有。我的一些...是的。莫妮卡是两届州冠军。所以她和我有着截然不同的思维方式，这种差异经常显现，比你想的更频繁，我觉得。就是日常生活中的小事。

I don't. And some of my yeah. Monica is a two time state champion. So she and I have a much different mindset that comes up very often, more than you would guess, I think. It just day to day life.

敬请继续收听《扶手椅专家》，如果你敢的话。

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

本节目由BetterHelp赞助。过去当我被生活压垮时，我曾寻求过一些非传统的支持渠道，比如随机的网络建议帖。虽然短期内可能有用，但我付出了代价才明白：不是每个网民都是治疗师，也不是所有人都具备我真正需要的专业能力。这就是为什么找到合适的支持如此重要，而BetterHelp正是为此而生。治疗能给你应对生活挑战的真实工具，让你更踏实。

The show is sponsored by BetterHelp. In the past, when my life has gotten too overwhelming, I've turned to some unusual places for support, like random internet advice threats. And while for a moment that can be helpful, I've learned the hard way that not everybody on the internet is a therapist, and not everybody has the tools that I really need. That's why finding the right support matters, and it's where BetterHelp comes in. Therapy gives you real tools to handle life's challenges and feel more grounded.

BetterHelp让这一切变得简单。填写一份关于你需求的快速问卷，凭借十年以上的经验，他们通常能首次匹配就准确无误。如果不合适，你可以随时免费更换。这是灵活、完全在线且适应你生活的便捷治疗。作为全球最大的在线治疗平台，BetterHelp能为你对接具有多元专业背景的心理健康专家。

BetterHelp makes it easy. Fill out a quick questionnaire about your needs, and with over ten years of experience, they usually get the match right the first time. And if not, you can switch anytime at no extra cost. It's flexible, fully online, and convenient therapy that fits your life. As the largest online therapy provider in the entire world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise.

通过BetterHelp找到适合你的治疗师。我们的听众首月可享九折优惠，访问betterhelp.com/mrballandpod。即betterhelp.com/mrballandpod。

Find the one with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/mrballandpod. That's betterhelp, help,.com/mrballandpod.

本期节目由Netflix《十号舱的女人》赞助。你知道比被困在豪华游轮上更刺激的是什么吗？是豪华游轮上发生谋杀悬案。我说的正是即将登陆Netflix的《十号舱的女人》。朋友们，这部惊悚片会让你取消所有游轮旅行计划。

This episode is brought to you by Netflix, The Woman in Cabin 10. You know what's better than being stuck on a luxury cruise ship? Being stuck on a luxury cruise ship with a murder mystery. I'm talking about the woman in cabin 10 coming to Netflix. And folks, this is the kind of thriller that'll have you canceling your cruise plans.

凯拉·奈特莉领衔主演这部阵容强大的影片。说到强大，《足球教练》中的汉娜·沃丁厄姆也参演了。还有盖·皮尔斯，说实话，他这辈子就没拍过烂片。我迫不及待想看这部电影，因为我母亲热爱游轮旅行，我自己大概坐过七次游轮。我对这个世界太熟悉了。

Keira Knightley leads this incredible cast. And speaking of incredible, Hannah Waddingham from Ted Lasso is in this thing. Plus, Guy Pearce, who, let's be honest, has never made a bad movie in his life. I cannot wait to watch this because my mother loved cruising and I have been on probably seven cruises. And I know the world so well.

如果你喜欢露丝·韦尔的这本书，你会为这个改编版本疯狂。如果你还没读过原著，那就更好了。

If you loved Ruth Ware's book, you're gonna flip for this adaptation. And if you haven't read it yet, even better.

《10号舱的女人》将于10月10日登陆网飞。别错过这班船。

The Woman in Cabin 10, coming to Netflix October 10. Don't miss this boat.

本节目由好事达保险赞助。先向好事达询价是明智之举，可能为您节省数百美元车险费用。不幸的是，事先不检查往往会酿成尴尬——比如没确认手机是否连着耳机，就在飞机上高唱《全蚀狂爱》。嗯，那趟航班真有趣。或者没检查运动短裤是否有破洞，就在墙镜前做深蹲。

We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds on car insurance is smart. Unfortunately, not checking things first, well, that's how you end up with some pretty embarrassing stories, Like not checking if your phone is actually connected to your earbuds before belting out total eclipse of the heart on an airplane. Yeah, that was a fun flight. Or not checking if your gym shorts have a hole in them before doing squats in front of the wall mirror.

那天整个健身房都看了场表演。更别提没检查野营炉燃料就进深山——连续三天吃燕麦棒喝常温水，这才是真正的荒野求生。没错，事先检查是明智的，所以先找好事达询价，可能省下几百美元。

The whole gym got a show that day. And don't even get me started about checking if your camping stove has fuel before heading into the wilderness. Nothing says roughing it quite like three days of granola bars and room temperature water. Yeah. Checking first is smart, so check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds.

好事达护您周全。节省金额因条款、条件和地区而异。好事达火灾及意外保险公司及附属机构，伊利诺伊州诺斯布鲁克。本节目由T-Mobile 5G家庭互联网赞助。和所有人一样，家庭互联网是我们的生命线，最糟心的莫过于网速变慢。

You're in good hands with Allstate. Savings vary subject to terms, condition, and availability. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by T Mobile five g Home Internet. Like everyone, home Internet is our life, and there's nothing worse than when it slows down.

啊我懂，尤其是当你正在做重要事情，比如剪辑这个节目的时候。

Ugh, I know. Especially when you're doing something important like editing this show.

其实，还有更糟的事，那就是整天等着有线电视安装工上门服务。

Well, actually, there's one worse thing, waiting around all day for the cable guy to show up to install it.

我真想讨回那五个小时。

I want those five hours back.

幸运的是，T-Mobile提供家庭网络服务。网速快，只需一根线，十五分钟就能轻松搞定安装。

Fortunately, T Mobile's got home Internet. They have fast speeds and it sets up easily in fifteen minutes with just one cord.

谁都能操作，连我都可以。

Anyone can do it. Even me.

嘿，我们是最早使用T-Mobile家庭网络的用户。我们甚至在阁楼上都用它。

Hey, we were first in on T Mobile's home internet. We were using it up in the attic.

是啊。如果

Yeah. If

你还记得的话。

you recall.

正是它支撑着这场节目的运行。

It powers this very show.

没错，它极其可靠。当你有一个充满人性洞察与屎尿屁笑话的播客时，这种可靠性必不可少。

Yes. It's so reliable. And when you've got a podcast full of valuable insights about human nature and poop jokes, you need that.

我们都需要这种可靠性。

We all need that.

哦对了，低价保障将持续五年。

Oh, and the low price is guaranteed for five years.

五年啊。向LTR致敬。

Five years. God respect to LTR.

固定无线5G家庭互联网的月费价格保障（税费等除外）。服务通过5G网络提供，网速受蜂窝网络影响因素波动，具体可用性、保障条款及细则详见www.tmobile.com/homeinternet。我必须说——这让我想起你有机会证明自己能与他人合作，这很棒。

Guarantees monthly price of fixed wireless five g Internet data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. Service delivered via five g network. Speeds vary due to factor affecting cellular networks, check availability and guarantee exclusions and details at www.tmobile.com/homeinternet. Well, I just gotta say one thing. I was reminded of you had the opportunity to go out and prove that you could do it with other people, which is fantastic.

但也让我想起《最后之舞》里那个经典场景：当记者问史蒂夫·科尔公牛队为何如此特别时，他本想组织语言，最后脱口而出'因为我们有迈克尔'。那个瞬间太精彩了——看纪录片时这是我最先想到的，莫妮卡和我都爱死这部片子了。

But it did remind me of that great moment in Last Dance when they asked Steve Kerr what makes the Bulls so special, and he starts to concoct an answer, and then he just goes, we have Michael. Was just so great. But it was one of my first thoughts. Like, so I was watching that documentary. Monica and I loved it.

这是我们有史以来最爱的纪录片。没错。而你在其中扮演了如此重要的角色。现在我想知道，你肯定擅长解释这个问题——当你观察NBA和球员们的体能水平时，他们在身体素质上的标准差其实并不大。

It's our favorite doc ever. Yeah. And you play such a big role in it. Now I wonder, and you would be good at explaining this to me. If you look at the NBA and you look at the fitness level of the players in the NBA, there's not really a big standard deviation between them physically.

他们在某种程度上都是天才。所以我很好奇，如果要你给身体素质和心理素质的重要性分配百分比会怎样？因为在我看来，你在心理素质上可能远超队友或对手好几个标准差，但身体素质上最多只能领先一个标准差。这样讲有道理吗？

They're all phenoms to some degree. So I'm wondering if you had to assign a percentage to how important the physical is versus the mental? Because to me, it seems like you could be many standard deviations above your teammates or your competitors mentally, but that physically at best you would be one above them. Does that make any sense?

完全有道理。听着，没有体能基础根本打不了那个级别的比赛。当然，有些运动员确实能跳得更高、移动更灵活、横向更快，这些差异往往取决于基因构成或场上位置。但迈克尔总说，关键在于心理素质。

Makes all the sense in the world. Listen, you can't play at that level and not be in physical condition. Obviously, there's gonna be some athletes that are gonna be able to jump higher, move better, move laterally faster, do those different things. And a lot of that has to do with a genetic makeup or what position you're playing in. But Michael always said it, he goes, it's the mental component.

正是心理素质让我占据优势。是心理素质让我能持续获胜。他们称之为最后一舞，但当我回顾那年，感觉就像一场不容失败的夺冠征程。所有条件都对那支球队不利。想象下：开赛时就知道无论夺冠与否，球队都将解散，教练会离开，某些球员会消失...

It's the mental component that gives me the edge. It's a mental component that allows me to win on a regular basis. They called it the last dance and I was just like, when I looked at that year, to me it was like an unforgiving race to winning. Everything was set up for that team not to win. I said, imagine going into a season knowing whether you won the championship or you didn't win, the team was gonna be dismantled, the coach was gonna be gone, this player wasn't gonna be here, this wasn't gonna be here.

作为个体的迈克尔，他清楚自己不会回归。换作常人，有多少会选择放弃？

You as Michael as an individual, he knew he wasn't coming back. How many people would have just thrown it in?

没错。对大多数人来说这就会成为现成的借口。

Right. For most people that becomes a built in excuse.

是的。你

Yes. You

知道吗？同样有趣的是回到身体因素上。在他职业生涯的最后一年，如果把他的身体状况比作满分10分，那绝对不是最后一年。我是说，那时候这家伙每次坐下膝盖都得裹着巨大的冰袋。他的身体状态显然不是在持续上升的。

know? What's interesting too is back to the physical component. Certainly in the last year of his playing, if you were to have given his body a 10 at some point, it wasn't the last year. I mean, the guy at that point is wearing enormous ice bags around his knees every time he sits down. Like, it not like his physical trajectory was going up and up.

而且我猜想，他的心理素质更需要弥补与之前状态的差距。

And I'd imagine even more his mental fitness had to make up that margin from what he was prior to that.

你可以保持某种程度的身体素质和移动能力，但身体总有极限，而心智没有。所以能够更快预判局势、更深入理解比赛，同时更精准把握对手的心理状态。清楚他们的强项和弱点，并据此调整策略——明白此刻需要做什么。虽然我跳不了那么高了，膝盖也磨损严重。

You can maintain a certain level of physical fitness and being able to move a certain way, but we know the body has limitations, but the mind doesn't. So being able to see things a little faster, understand the game a little better, and also to have better understanding of the mindset of your opponent. Know where their strengths are, where their weaknesses are and be able to take that and know this is what I need now. I'm not gonna be able to jump as high. I have a lot of miles on my knees.

记住，那些冰袋的存在是为了让他能打得更久。

Remember, the reason for those ice bags was to allow him to play longer.

是啊。但前五年不知为何从不需要这些。很明显——

Yeah. But they hadn't been required for whatever reason the first five years. I mean, clearly

没错。

Right.

你提到重复性损伤。我是说。

You talk about repetitive injury. Mean.

是的。年轻人总觉得自己无所不能。但随着年龄增长，你会开始意识到，嘿，我得更好地照顾自己的身体，得做些改变。所以我们每年都确保——尤其是去年从心理层面——同时清楚知道新赛季开始时斯科蒂无法上场。

Yes. People at the young age, they think they're indestructible. And as you get older, you start to, hey, I gotta take better care of my body. I gotta do different things. So each year we made sure that especially that last year from a mental standpoint, also knowing going into the season that Scottie was not gonna be available.

他决定接受背部手术。这时候你就面临选择：要么像你说的那样找借口，要么如何让心理更强大，继续创造佳绩来赢得比赛？

He decided to have back surgery. So now you're like, okay, we can either use what you said is use it as an excuse or how do we get even mentally stronger and continue to produce these results in order to win?

老虎伍兹纪录片让我觉得有趣的是，一开始接受采访时他就刚赢得首个冠军。他的目标始终是'我要成为史上最伟大的高尔夫球手'，而不是'今年要赢PGA巡回赛'。对我这种不像莫纳科、你或乔丹的人来说，甚至无法想象这种思维方式——不只是要做同龄人中最强，而是要成为历史最佳。

One thing I found interesting about the Tiger documentary is that right out of the gates, he was interviewed and he had won his first championship. And his goal always was I wanna be the greatest golfer to ever play. Not I wanna win the PGA Tour this year. And for me, again, as someone who's not like Monacore, you or Michael Jordan, I can't even conceptualize thinking that way. Like entering some not just I wanna be the best among my peers, but I wanna be the best in history.

在我看来乔丹非常擅长书写自己的故事，他会寻找反派角色，树立敌人。他善于构建叙事。所以我觉得斯科蒂缺席对他来说某种程度上反而是——太好了，老子偏要在没有他的情况下做到。就像故事因为缺憾变得更精彩，毕竟他已经赢过所有冠军了。

And it seems to me that Jordan was really active in writing his own story and that he would find villains and he would establish an enemy. And he was good at creating a story. And so, I would imagine Scottie being out, for him in some way, is almost like, ugh, even better. I'm gonna fucking do this, and I'm gonna do it without that. Like, the story just got better because he's already won all the championships.

某种程度上你是在寻找能让故事更上一层楼的契机。现在这就是个机会。哇，现在我要在没有斯科蒂的情况下做到了。

So almost in ways, you're looking for the story to get it's gotta top itself. So this is a way for it to top itself. Wow. Now I'm gonna do it without Scottie.

我常说，动力只是入门级。当你拥有那种天赋，已经赢得五次冠军，即将作为这项运动史上最伟大运动员载入史册时，动力根本不算什么。你不需要外界欢呼，不需要那些东西。

I always say this. I said motivation is entry level. When you're that talented and you've already won five championships and you're going down in history as possibly the greatest athlete to ever play this game, Motivation is entry level. You don't need the external people cheering for you. You don't need that stuff.

一切都源于内在。这是关于自我提升的故事。你内心燃烧着什么别人看不见、摸不着的东西？正是那些'这做不到''你不能这样不能那样'的质疑声。

Everything is internal. This is all about elevation. This is all about elevating yourself. What burns inside of you that other people can't see, that other people can't touch? And it's those little things that you said about this can't be done, you can't do this, you can't do that.

这并非要证明那些人错了，而是要证明你自己是对的。就像在说，是的，我能做到。

And it's not about proving those individuals wrong, It's about proving yourself right. It's like, yes, I can do this.

没错。所以在你的书《追求卓越的无情竞赛》中，我们了解到乔丹、科尔比等人的一些事迹。普通人能从中学到什么？他们有哪些做法是你可以借鉴的？

Right. So in your book, The Unforgiving Race to Greatness, we get to learn about some of the things that Jordan did, Colby did. What can an average person take from that? What possibly did they do that you could apply to yourself?

首先，赢得胜利的能力存在于我们每个人身上。每天都有胜利的机会。你必须主动去抓住这些胜利。你需要明白它们在哪里，并利用它们让你离最终目标更近一步。而且你必须清楚自己在追逐什么。

First of all, the ability to win is in all of us. There's wins every single day. You gotta go out and capture those wins. You gotta understand where they are and use it to get you a step closer to whatever your ultimate win is. And you got to know what you're chasing.

人们不知道自己追逐的是什么。他们不知道是在追逐金钱、成功还是健康。他们根本不清楚自己的目标。

People don't know what they're chasing. They don't know if they're chasing money. They don't know if they're chasing success. They don't know if they're chasing health. They don't know what they're chasing.

你必须明确目标，找出那些能让你逐步接近最终结果的小胜利。

You have to have a clear definition of figure out the small wins that will get you closer and closer to that end result.

这让我想起最近和一位做投资的朋友的对话。他总抱怨说某支股票两倍时就卖了，结果后来涨到四倍等等。我说，如果你一开始没定义什么是胜利，就会永远处于这种心态中。对吧？如果你买股票时不说‘对我来说两倍就是大胜利’或‘1.5倍就是大胜利’，那你永远都会不满足，因为你从未明确过胜利的标准。

Reminds me of a conversation I had recently with a friend of ours who is an investor for a living. And he'll lament about having sold something at two x and it went to four x and blah blah blah. And I said, well, you know, if you don't enter it with a definition of what a win is, you're gonna forever be in this state of mind. Right? If you enter into a stock and you don't say, well, for me, two x is a big victory or 1.5 x is a big victory, then of course you'll always have dissatisfaction because you never ever identified what the win was.

有趣的是，肯塔基赛马最近刚结束。动物赛跑时有个现象很有意思——它们不知道终点线在哪儿，只会不停地跑啊跑。但作为人类，你必须清楚自己追逐的起点、终点以及胜利的定义。否则你就会像那些马一样永远跑下去。

What's funny, we just had the Kentucky Derby just recently happened. Here's the interesting thing about when animals race. They don't know there's a finish line and they'll just keep going and keep going and keep going. You as an individual, you have to know the beginning of your chase, the end of it, what the win is. Otherwise, you're just going to keep going.

你只会继续前行。你会一直走下去，最终可能到达一个你并不想去的地方。

You're just going to keep going. You're going to keep going And you maybe end up going to a place you don't want to be.

为什么自私会被误解，又为何它是成就伟大的必要条件？

Why is selfishness misunderstood and why is it required for greatness?

事情是这样的，我们每个人都有自己的自私方式。只是我们给它起了不同的名字。比如‘我的时间’，对吧？或者‘男人洞穴’，‘和哥们儿的夜晚’，‘和姐妹们的夜晚’。这些都是你为自己做的事。

So here's the thing, we're all selfish in our own way. We just give it different names. It's like me time, all right? Or here we go, man cave or night out with the boys, night out with the girls. Those things are things you do for yourself.

没人认为这些是自私的。如果你花时间锻炼，人们不觉得那自私。如果你抽空冥想，人们也不会在意。这些都是你为自己做的事。但当有人请你帮忙而你回答‘不’时，突然你就自私了，因为这没让他们受益。

Nobody considers those selfish. If you take time to work out, people don't consider that selfish. If you take time out to meditate, people don't take care. Those are all things you do for yourself. Now, when somebody asks you to do something and you give them the answer, no, now sudden you're selfish because it doesn't benefit them.

你必须照顾好自己。如果你不投资自己，又怎能投资他人？通常当人们说你自私时，他们注意到的是你正从那个人或群体中抽离，因为大家都喜欢待在中间，那里最舒适。群体的中心没有自私可言。但一旦你开始抽离，突然就变成‘哦，你看到他们做了什么吗？’

You have to take care of yourself. If you don't invest in yourself, how are you gonna invest in anybody else? And usually when people say you're selfish, what they notice is they see you separating yourself from that individual or from the pack because everybody likes to stay in the middle because that's where the comfort is. There's no selfishness in the middle of a pack. But once you start separating yourself, all of a sudden it's like, oh, did you see what they did?

‘他们在干什么？难以置信他们会那样做。’于是你被贴上自私的标签。当你确实变得自私时，最终目的不是为了你自己。你自私的时间，是为了能回馈他人，给予他人更多。

What are they doing? I can't believe they're acting that way. And you get this labeled stigma as he or she is being selfish. When you do become selfish, the end goal is not to be about you. The time you spent being selfish, it's so they can give back to others, so they can give more to others.

但要做到这一点，必须有一段属于自己的时间。

But in order to do that, there has to be a time for themselves.

好的。告诉我与众不同的价值，以及这如何影响成功或获胜。

Okay. Tell me the value of being different and how that plays into succeeding or winning.

获胜需要你与众不同，但与众不同会让人害怕。早期真正让我和我的训练业务脱颖而出的是：所有书籍、研究和我阅读的一切都告诉我该思考什么——这是训练个人的方法，这是你要做的。而我拥有的是如何思考的能力。

Winning requires you to be different, but different scares people. Here's what really separated me and my training business early. All the books and studies and everything I read told me what to think. This is how you train an individual, this is what you do. I had the ability how to think.

当个人拥有如何思考的能力时，他们就会与众不同，因为他们不会跟随其他人都在走的相同足迹。我举个很好的例子：迈克尔当时精力不足。那时没有任何一本书会说‘你需要增加他的蛋白质摄入’。80年代末到90年代，所有人都在强调碳水化合物、碳水化合物、碳水化合物。

And when individuals have the ability of how to think that makes them different because they're not following the same footprint that everybody else is doing. I'll give you a great example. Michael was low on energy. There wasn't a book back out there that said, okay, you need to increase his protein intake. During the late 80s and 90s, everything was about carbs, carbs, carbs.

而我却说：不，知道吗？为了减缓消化过程，我在他的赛前餐里加了块牛排，所有人都说我疯了。这不是‘思考什么’，而是‘如何思考’。如果你见过迈克尔这样做——回想你的学生时代，现在可能仍会这样——当你真的气喘吁吁、呼吸急促时，教练总是告诉你什么？

I was like, no, you know what? In order to slow the digestive process, so I added a steak to his pregame meal and everybody said, you're crazy. That wasn't what to think, that was how to think. One of the big things that if you've ever seen Michael do this, if you go back to your school days, this may still happen now. When you're really winded and you're breathing heavily, what do the coaches always tell you?

“把手臂举到空中，举过头顶，这样能更打开肺部。”可我想：我已经在剧烈呼吸了，肺部基本完全打开了。所以我总是告诉迈克尔：抓住你的短裤。因为当你全力冲刺、在球场上来回奔跑时，如果能有机会倚靠某物，身体恢复会快得多——他不可能靠在桌子上。于是我说：抓住短裤。这个姿势让你有东西可以平衡体重。

Put your arms in your air, put them over your head, it opens up the lungs more. I'm like, I'm already breathing heavily, my lungs are pretty much open. So I always used to tell Michael, grab your shorts because when you sprint real hard and you're running up and down the court, if you get an opportunity to lean on something, your body recovers so much quicker while he's not gonna lean against the table. So I just said, grab your shorts. When you're in that position, you have something to balance your weight off of now.

这样能让你更快恢复。再次强调，这是‘如何思考’而非‘思考什么’。不要总想着‘正确方法是什么’，而是‘你的方法是什么’。科比以前经常来找我说：他总说知识就是力量。

So it's gonna allow you to recover faster. Again, that's how to think not what to think. Not always thinking about what's the right way, what's your way of doing it. Kobe used to come up to me all the time. He goes, he used to say knowledge is power.

而我会回答：只有为你所用时才是。你获取知识的方式和看待事物的角度，可能完全不同于其他任何人。

And I would say only if you use it for yourself. It's the way you gather knowledge and the way you perceive something may be totally different than the way anybody else is.

如果你敢的话，请继续收听更多《扶手椅专家》节目。本节目由Nordic Naturals赞助。你知道吗？只有20%的美国人从饮食中摄取足够的Omega-3脂肪酸。加入这20%的行列，体验Nordic Naturals Omega-3的神奇功效。作为美国销量第一的Omega-3品牌，其产品配方适合全家老少，包括儿童和宠物。

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So seamless.

就像瑞士制造的精密钟表。哦对了，整个网站都是由Wobby Wob通过Squarespace设计的，过程非常简单。Squarespace的前沿设计工具彻底改变了游戏规则。通过他们的AI增强建站工具Blueprint AI，只需几步就能打造完全定制化的网站。

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本节目由SKIMS赞助播出。

We are supported by SKIMS.

好的。你知道我超爱SKIMS，它产品线超级丰富——有服装、泳装、男装系列（我知道你喜欢这部分）。嗯。虽然我们在广告中盛赞过多个产品线，但SKIMS最出名的还是其卓越的内衣系列，这完全合情合理。

Okay. So you know I love SKIMS so much, and it has ton a of different products. It has apparel, it has swim, it has men's wear, which I know you like. Mhmm. And I raved about a lot of the different product lines in these ads we get to do, but Skims is best known for their incredible intimates, and that makes total sense.

他们的文胸和内裤品质确实无与伦比。奢华面料、极致舒适，完美贴合身形的同时在外衣下依然美观，这点至关重要。它真正满足了你所有的期待。

The quality of their bras and underwear is truly unmatched. It's luxe. It's comfortable fabrics. It fits that feel good and look good under clothes which is hugely important. And it's really everything you could want.

要知道，找到既舒适又可爱的内衣真的非常非常非常困难。

Like, it is very, very, very hard to find comfortable underwear that's also cute.

没错。这是个巨大挑战。但你总是不厌其烦地向朋友推荐这个品牌。

Yes. That's the big challenge. But you're endlessly recommending this to friends.

是的。我有好几件他们的内衣，都非常合身。无论穿什么衣服都很搭配。最近我还试穿了那款适合所有人的蕾丝Tango系列。

I am. I have multiple of their bras. They all fit great. They work well under all clothes. And I recently tried the fits everybody lace tango.

它采用了超级超级柔软的全适应面料，我简直爱不释手。蕾丝花边的设计增添了一丝性感，同时又很舒适。这是我所有内衣中最舒服的一件，每次穿上都让我感觉棒极了。

It's made with this like really really really soft fits everybody fabric. I'm obsessed with it. It has this lace trim, so it adds a little bit of sexiness, but it's also comfortable. It's the most comfortable underwear I own, and it makes me feel amazing every time I wear it.

在skims.com选购莫妮卡最爱的内衣系列。下单后请务必告知是我们推荐您的。在问卷中选择播客渠道，并在后续下拉菜单中选中我们的节目。skims.com。对了，你书里提到那个关于凌晨四点健身是骗局的观点，我迫不及待想听你解释。

Shop Monica's favorite bras and underwear at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey, and be sure to select our show in the drop down menu that follows. Skims.com. Now, thing in your book I can't wait to hear the answer to is that waking up at 4AM to exercise is bogus.

不知从何时起，睡眠不足竟成了成功的标志，我肯定错过了这个潮流。人们总问我最佳锻炼时间是什么时候？答案很简单：任何时候你能锻炼的时候。那么清晨锻炼确实有优势吗？

So at some point, I must have been sleeping during this time where sleep deprivation became a sign of success. And people always ask me, when's the best time to work out? Whenever you can work out. Plain and simple. Now, are there advantages of working out real, real early?

有的。但效果微乎其微，对普通人来说根本无关紧要。选择最适合你、能取得最佳效果的时间段就行。当年训练迈克尔和其他运动员时，我们会安排在清晨5点、6点或7点，这样他们就能在训练前完成，为夜间可能的活动留出时间。

Yes. But they're so small and for the average individual, it does not make a difference. Work out what's best for you where you can get the most results. Now with Michael and my athletes, we had a particular time. We would either work out at 5AM, 6AM or 7AM because we wanted him to get it in early before practice and get it out of the day in case we had something to do late at night.

安排三个不同时段是因为比赛时间各不相同。有时在纽约打完比赛就要飞往洛杉矶。如果固定时间训练——这也是个性化训练的要点——我需要迈克尔的身体和心智都能适应各时区。我们会根据比赛地点调整训练计划，无论是西海岸、东海岸、太平洋时区还是中部时区，确保他的身体随时处于最佳状态。

And the reason we chose the three different times is because not all his games were played at the same time. Sometimes you'd play a game in New York and then you'd have to fly to LA. So if you constantly work out at the same time and this was another thing about being different is just like, all right, well I need Michael's muscles from a physical standpoint and from a mental standpoint to be able to work at all these different time zones. So we would literally make the adjustments in our workout depending on the different game and whether it was a West Coast trip, an East Coast trip, whether he was going Pacific time, Central time. So that way his body was ready at all these different times.

但对普通人来说，如果你凌晨四点去健身房无法全力以赴，那就别勉强自己在这个时间锻炼。

But for the average individual, if you can't go to the gym and give you maximum effort at 4AM, then don't do a 4AM workout.

嗯，我觉得人们总是纠结于这些细节而忽略了更宏观的问题，对吧？比如持续性。首先，如果你已经最大化保持了持续性，那才能开始关注诸如‘早晨生长激素水平是否更高’这类细枝末节。但人们往往在基础都没打牢时，就急于追求这些外围细节，这么说应该很公允。

Well, I think people focus in on these things and they ignore the bigger issues, right? Like consistency. First of all, if you have maximized consistency, then you can start focusing on, oh, do you have higher HGH levels in the morning? Blah blah blah. But people are generally leaping to this extraneous detail before they've even got the basics down, I think, is fair to say.

对吧？

Right?

哦，这个比喻太贴切了。就像新年决心清单那样——每个人都喊着‘我要去健身房’‘我要戒酒’‘我要戒烟’。

Oh, that that's a great thing. It's just like the New Year's resolution thing. Everybody like, okay, I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to stop drinking. I'm going to stop smoking.

‘我要健康饮食’‘我要进行原始人饮食法或生酮饮食’‘我要戒碳水’。可他们明明九个月没进健身房了，却妄想一次性完成所有目标，结果哪件事都做不好。总是在还没坚持做好一件事时，就急着添加新项目，不断堆叠，最终必然失败。我早期做培训时，从来不会一开始就给客户制定饮食计划。

I'm going to eat better. I'm going to do paleo or I'm going to do keto or I'm going to do no carbs. And they haven't been in the gym in nine months And they go in and they try to do all these things at once and they never master one thing. They never get consistent with one thing before they add something else, before they add something else and they always fail. When I did the training early in my stages, I would never give my clients a nutrition plan in the beginning.

我会说：'好，我们先专注训练，让你养成规律的运动习惯，确保每个环节都运转正常。'等这个基础打牢了，我们再加入饮食计划。等饮食稳定后，才会补充水分计划——这些都不是什么大改动。

I would say, all right, let's get into the workouts. Let's get you consistent here. Let's make sure everything is working correctly. Then from there, we would add a nutrition plan. Then from the nutrition plan, we would add a hydration plan, which are no way big.

另外我很惊讶你居然到现在还不用去洗手间。

And I'm very impressed that you haven't had to go to the bathroom yet either.

其实需要去，只是我憋着没去而已。

I have to, I just haven't gone.

你说得很对，要追求卓越就必须先做到稳定和精通。我常说，人人都想一步登天，但你必须先精通平庸，再掌握优秀。只有当你精通了优秀，才能开始追逐伟大。

So you said it great. You need to get consistent and master. I always say everybody wants to go to great. Well, you gotta master average first, then you have to master good. And once you've mastered that, then you can start chasing greatness.

好的。现在我要问些理论性问题，毕竟我不像你和莫妮卡是赢家。你是否曾自问过，赢的价值是什么？为何要追求胜利？对胜利的追求是否等同于对幸福、满足或成就感的追求？

Okay. So now I'm gonna ask some kind of theoretical questions because I am not a winner like you and Monica. Do you ever ask yourself what is the value of winning? Why is it a pursuit? Is the pursuit to winning a pursuit to happiness or contentment or fulfillment?

在书里我询问过所有合作过的运动员和许多人：用一个词定义胜利。科比的回答是——胜利就是一切。他指的是获胜时的感受。当你赢得某件事时，会有种狂喜的感觉。你的孩子获胜时，你也会有这种感觉。

Well, in the book, I asked all my athletes and I've asked numerous people, I said, describe winning in one word. Kobe answer was, winning is everything. And what he meant by that is the feeling you get from winning. When you've won at something, there's this euphoric feeling. When your kids win at something, you have that feeling.

当你在乎的人——队友或其他个体——获胜时，你同样会感受到。在我看来，人们追逐的正是这种'胜利即一切'的感官体验，是其他任何事物都无法带来的快感。这就是他们的瘾。

When the people you care about, your teammates, other individuals, you have that feeling. To me, that's what they're chasing. It's that winning is everything sensation. It's that high they get that they can't get from anywhere else. That's their addiction.

我们都有所沉迷。胜利就是他们的毒品。

We're all addicted to something. That's their drug.

你提到科比很有意思，这是我第一次认真思考这个问题。关于他的伟大纪录片《缪斯》——我得谨慎措辞，毕竟他已离世。我热爱看他比赛，他为洛杉矶这座城市所做的贡献令人惊叹。

Well, it's funny you bring up Colby because this is the first time I really question myself about this. So there's that great documentary about him, Muse. And I wanna be delicate with me saying all this because he died. I loved watching him. What he did for the city of LA is amazing.

我对他怀有崇高敬意。但以我的视角看，他对胜利的执着付出了巨大代价。这种执着造成了诸多负面影响。没错，如果你听队友们的采访，他们会直言不讳地说'他是个混蛋，但我们赢了'。

I have great admiration for him. But his dedication to winning, from my perspective, took a huge price. There was a lot of fallout from his dedication to winning. Yes. If you listen to his teammates when they're interviewed, they just straight up say he's an asshole, but we won.

现在如果你问沙奎尔·奥尼尔的队友们对他的评价，他们会说，和沙奎尔同队的三年是我生命中最美好的时光。沙奎尔没有科比那种特质。他没有那种对胜利近乎病态的执着。因此，他的冠军数量不及科比。他确实赢过，但没赢得像科比那么多。

Now if you ask Shaquille O'Neal's teammates about him, they'll say, greatest three years of my life being on a team with Shaquille. Now Shaquille didn't have what Kobe had. He didn't have that psychotic obsession with winning. And as a result, he didn't win as much. He won, but he didn't win as much as Kobe.

他们在历史上的地位也会不同。纪录片结束时我不禁思考：临终时能说出'我赢了'的代价是什么？对比另一种场景——躺在病榻上时，身边围绕着爱你的队友们，你们彼此成就了更好的人生。你会如何权衡这两种价值？我有个挚友也看了这部片子。我们当晚同时观看，次日工作间隙就讨论起来。

And they'll have a different place in history. That documentary concluded and I thought, wow, what's the price to be able to lie on your deathbed and say, I won versus I'm on my deathbed and here's all my teammates who love me and I made their lives better and we all made each other's lives better. What are you gonna value? Now, I have a best friend who watched it. We watched it on the same night, next morning at work, we're talking about it.

他说'这就是我的新圣经。我要做黑曼巴。我要成为科比那样的赢家。'我当时的反应是：哇。

He was like, that's my new bible. I'm Black Mamba. I'm gonna be Kobe. I wanna win. I'm like, wow.

而我持相反观点——胜利的代价往往比人们愿意承认的更加沉重。

I took the opposite, which is winning can cost a lot more than some people wanna admit.

确实如此。但这个代价只有你自己能衡量。那些与科比并肩夺冠的队友们，他们获益了吗？当然获益了。他们在历史上留下了印记。

It does. But the only you can determine that price. Now did all the teammates that were with Kobe that won with him, did they benefit? They definitely did benefit. They have a place in history.

他们赢得了总冠军。凭借冠军履历，如果转投其他球队，很可能获得更高薪酬。这取决于你如何看待得失。在《再论胜利》这本书里，我提到根本不存在平衡。我从未见过哪个顶尖成功人士是真正平衡的。

They won championships. They probably if they went to another team because they had a championship pedigree, they probably made more money. So it's just how you look at it. In the book, Again Winning, I talk about there is no balance. I've not known one highly successful person that's fully balanced.

人们总在功成名就后大谈平衡，告诫别人不要这样不要那样。而我认为平衡不是做加法。当被告知需要更多生活平衡时，人们总想增加新事物——但科比的做法是删减。

People love to talk about balance after they become successful. They tell all the other individuals don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. And to me, balance is not about adding. And everybody try when you tell them they need more balance in their life, everybody wants to add more stuff. Kobe deleted.

因此，让他接近平衡的关键不在于增加，而在于删减，因为在那个天平上，胜利是最重要的事。我总爱问这个问题：谁想要零幸福？显然没人举手。那么谁想要零成功？

And so him to get closer to balance, it wasn't about the addition. It was about the deletion because winning was the greatest thing on that scale. I always ask this question, who wants zero happiness? Obviously, nobody raises their hand. So who wants zero success?

没人举手。谁想要零爱？也没人举手。然后我会说，完美平衡的天平上数字是多少？是零。

Nobody raises their hands. Who wants zero love? Nobody raises their hand. And then I'll say, what's the number on a perfectly balanced scale? It's a zero.

没错。我想说的是，你必须清楚什么对你真正重要。

Yeah. Now what I'm saying is you have to know what's important to you.

嗯，我猜你真正想表达的是：听着，胜利并非适合所有人。但如果你想赢，就得接受一些残酷的现实。所以这完全取决于你。我并非说世上每个人都必须成为赢家，但如果你想成为迈克尔·乔丹那样的人——《最后之舞》这部纪录片之所以成为绝佳的访谈桥梁，正是因为全民都在观看。我和比尔·盖茨聊过，我说尽管你们从事截然不同的事业，但你们同样极致专注、孤注一掷，你肯定对他有某种共鸣吧。

Well, I imagine if I could guess at what you're really saying is, look, winning's not for everyone. But if you wanna win, there are some hard fucking facts about it. So it's all up to you. I'm not saying everyone in this world has to be a winner, but if you wanna be like Michael Jordan so The Last Dance has been this great bridge of interviewing people because everyone watched it. Talked to Bill Gates, and I say, you must have felt some connection to him despite doing drastically different things that you both were just singularly focused and hell bent.

这种追求很可能伴随着大量个人牺牲。这似乎是成功者的共性。我多希望我们采访过选择沙奎尔·奥尼尔道路却同样取得成就的比尔·盖茨或史蒂夫·乔布斯。这真的很耐人寻味。我想人们终究要决定自己想成为什么样的人，想讲述怎样的个人故事。

And that there was probably a lot of personal casualties associated with that. And that seems to be consistent. I wish we talked to the Bill Gates or the Steve Jobs or somebody that took the Shaq route and also became those things. So it's just very interesting. I guess people ultimately have to decide who they wanna be and what story they wanna tell about themselves.

我有我的版本，你有你的，莫妮卡也有她的。我并非在否定追求胜利。但以我的视角，我常将追求胜利视为结果导向的人生。而我不认为结果导向的人生最能带来满足感。但这只是我的故事。

I have one for me and you have one and Monica has one. I don't think I'm saying no one should try to be a winner. But from my perspective, I often look at the pursuit of winning as a results oriented life. And I don't believe that a results oriented life is the most fulfilling. But that's my story.

但你看，关键在于——这就是你定义的胜利。你对胜利的定义可能与他人截然不同。迈克尔对胜利的定义不同，科尔比的胜利定义也不同。

But see, here's the thing that that's your win. That's your definition of a win. Your definition of winning could be completely different than somebody else's. Michael's definition of winning is different. Colby's definition of winning was different.

德韦恩、塞雷娜·威廉姆斯、比尔·盖茨，这些人的成功定义各不相同。正因如此，在书中我并未告诉你该做什么——因为你的一生总有人在指手画脚。这本书关乎你自主决定人生目标与胜利标准。

Dwayne's, Serena Williams, Bill Gates, all these individuals, their definition of winning is different. And that's why in the book, I don't tell you what to do because your whole life's people are telling you what to do. This book is about you deciding what you wanna do and what your wins are in life.

没错。更何况按许多标准来看你确实成功了。如今你达到的境界是说过程即目标，但你确实长期追求并获得了诸多成果。现在你可以轻描淡写说重在过程，但你也曾经历过同样的执着。

Yeah. And not to mention, you did win by so many standards. Now you're at the point where you're saying like process is the goal, but you have a lot of results under your belt that you chased for a long time and got. And now you can say, oh, it's processed. But you did go through that same thing.

你说得对。当年在Groundlings剧团我就想成为台上最有趣的演员——绝不甘于中等水平，我就是要当最搞笑的那个。

You're right. I wanted to be funniest on stage at the groundlings. I didn't wanna be middle funniest. I certainly wanted to be funniest.

很好。

Fine.

是的。我赞同你的观点。成功由你自己定义。如今46岁的我，成功就是享受过程而非结果。在

Yeah. And I agree with you. You get to define what winning is. And yeah, currently at 46, winning for me is enjoying process regardless of outcome. At

某些阶段，就像莫妮卡刚才说的，早期你会冲上舞台发誓：'见鬼，我非要赢不可，我要成为这个舞台最有趣的人'。现在你实现了，此时你对成功的认知和当前追求的竞赛，已与他人截然不同。

certain stages, earlier in the stages of you said, just what Monica said, you got on stage, Hey, damn it. I'm gonna win this thing. I'm gonna be the funniest person on this stage. Now you won that. Now you see and perceive winning and the race that you're in to win now is different than what somebody else's race may be.

现在若遇到比你年轻二十岁、正努力达到你如今地位的人，他们当年对成功的理解可能与你此刻的认知天差地别。

Now you go back to an individual who's twenty years younger than you are, who's trying to get to where you're at, their perspective of winning back then maybe is totally different than what it is now.

确实，它肯定在演变。我有个快速的好奇问题。你也经常观察罗德曼。是的。这完全是个猜测。

Yeah, it evolves for sure. I just have a quick curiosity question. You also got to observe Rodman a lot. I did. And and this is gonna be a just a total guess.

首先，多么惊人的身体素质。我是说，在NBA历史上所有球员中，他的体格是我的最爱，他的体能状态简直超乎想象。

First of all, what a physical phenom. I mean, of all the bodies that ever existed in the NBA, his is my favorite, and his conditioning was off the charts.

难以置信。如果我告诉你丹尼斯每场比赛前的赛前餐是一桶肯德基。

Unbelievable. And if I told you Dennis' pregame meal before every single game, a bucket of KFC.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

对，对。

Right. Right.

所以这就是

So this is where

我想扮演一秒钟的纸上谈兵心理医生。因为迈克尔有个非常突出的父亲形象，他们关系很好，我认为他听从你的指导很容易。而罗德曼像我一样生活中没有男性榜样，我觉得从男性那里接受指导简直难以忍受。我看着罗德曼和他的成就，试着想象。你能想象如果他和你合作会怎样吗？

I wanna play armchair therapist for one second. Because Michael had a very prominent father figure and he had a great relationship with him, I think taking instruction from you and listening was easy for him. And I imagine for Rodman who did not have a male presence in his life, like myself, I find it absolutely insufferable to receive instruction from a male. And I look at Rodman and I look what he did on his own and I just try to imagine. Can you imagine if he had been working with you?

你原本可以用那块画布做些什么呢？

What you could have done with that canvas?

迈克尔其实问过我，他说，嘿，丹尼斯总在路上锻炼。他说，我希望你和我练完后，去搞清楚丹尼斯什么时候锻炼。我就想让你观察他。于是我看着丹尼斯锻炼。说实话，毫无章法，没有计划，什么都没有。

So Michael actually asked me, he goes, hey, Dennis would work out on the road all the time. He goes, I want you to, after you get done working out with me, find out when Dennis works out. I just want you to observe him. So I would watch Dennis work out. And honestly, there was no structure, no plan, no nothing.

有一天他突然说，我要骑自行车。另一天他又要举重。他就是随心所欲。我试着和他聊聊。但你必须明白，对丹尼斯来说，'条理'这个词根本不在他的胜利词典里。

One day he just said, I'm a ride the bike. Other day he's gonna lift. He just did whatever he, what he wanted. And I tried to kind of talk to him. But one thing you had to understand with Dennis is structure was not in his winning vocabulary.

如果你试图约束他，结果只会适得其反。所以他获胜的方式和迈克尔完全不同，但最终都赢得了胜利。

If you try to structure him, it was actually gonna go the other way. So his language of winning is completely different than Michael's language of winning, but the result of winning was the same.

是啊。他简直渴望混乱。在混乱中反而表现出色，奇怪的是我觉得自己也有这种特质——局势越混乱我越得心应手。看他们两人的对比很有意思，两人在任何时候都是卓越的执行者。

Yeah. It's almost like he craved chaos. Like he excelled in chaos, which weirdly is some I think I too have is like, I like when it gets chaotic. That's when I feel like I shine. So, yeah, I've loved watching the difference between those two, both of them incredible executors at all times.

还记得丹尼斯失踪去拉斯维加斯那次吗？本来说好只去一天，结果四十八小时后才回来。后来训练时他们设计了个惩罚环节：所有人绕场跑步，教练吹哨时队尾的人要冲刺到队首。

You remember that story where Dennis disappeared to Vegas. I can't remember if it was for it was just supposed to be for a day pass and he didn't come back until like forty eight hours. Yeah. Yeah. So they run this drill in practice where everybody runs around the court.

轮到丹尼斯时，哨声响起，他从队尾冲到队首，后面的人根本追不上他，领先太多了。大家只能苦笑：看来该多送他去几次拉斯维加斯。

And when the coach blows the whistle, the person at the end of the line sprints to the front and they just keep going until the coach said, so they had all said, okay, hey, let's teach Dennis a lesson for being gone for forty eight hours. So what happened was when it was Dennis's turn, when they blew the whistle and Dennis was at the end of the line and he ran to the front. Everybody else that was in the back of the line couldn't catch Dennis. He was just so far ahead of everybody. And there was just like, this is well, maybe we should send him to Vegas more often.

是啊。MJ说，别让他冲到前面去。他可能已经四天没睡了，却还是能超过所有人。没错。是的。

Yeah. MJ says like, don't let him get at the front. And he had probably been awake for four days and somehow still outpaced all those folks. Yep. Yeah.

所以你就想象一下，如果他愿意接受指导，能取得怎样的成就。想想就有点心碎。

So you just try to imagine what he could have done if he could accept guidance. It's a little heartbreaking.

这就是科比为何对沙克如此失望的原因，他总说，老兄，如果沙克你能有我这样的自律和职业态度，我们现在讨论的就不是三连冠，而是十冠、十一冠甚至十二冠了。

That's what made Kobe so frustrated with Shaq because he was just like, man, if Shaq, if you had the same discipline and the work ethic that I had, we wouldn't be talking about winning three championships in a row. We'd be talking about ten, eleven, 12.

确实。

Yeah.

没错。但那是另一回事了。

Yeah. But that was a different thing.

他们本拥有创造历史的全部条件。

They had the ingredients to definitely make history.

对。这正是他们总起冲突的原因之一。

Right. That was one of the things that they would always butt heads about.

嗯哼。嗯哼。我想在这个故事里我是沙奎尔，而你们是科比。都是赢家。没错。

Mhmm. Mhmm. And I guess I'm I'm Shaquille in this story, and you guys are, Kobe. So And all winners. Yeah.

沙奎尔想成为一个有个性的人，他也一直是这样的。你说得对，他那种...他的单一焦点不是总冠军戒指，而是

Shaquille wanted to be a personality, and he continues to be one. And his like his kind of, you're right. His singular focus was not rings. It was

对。

Right.

沙奎尔。

Shaquille.

没错。说得太对了。他是个非凡的商人。显然在TNT电视台，他是那里的主要人物之一。

Right. Exactly. That's a great way to put it. He's a phenomenal business person. Obviously on TNT, he's one of the main guys over there.

沙奎尔做他想做的事，那就是他的胜利方式。他想摔跤。他想加入WWE。他就去做了。

Shaquille does what Shaquille wants to do, and that's winning to him. He wants to wrestle. He wants to be part of WWE. He goes does that.

他想当警察。在湖人队效力期间，他真当了长滩港务局的警察。

He wants to be a cop. Was a fucking Long Beach Port Authority police officer while he was a Laker.

他想出演自己所有的广告。他确实这么做了。他在一些最盛大的活动中担任DJ。因此，能在所有这些不同领域都取得成功，对他来说至关重要。科比就是如此，这就是他现在想要赢得的。

He wants to star in all of his commercials. He does that. He DJs at some of the biggest events out there. So being able to win in all those different things, that was important to him. Kobe was, this is what I wanna win at right now.

观看这些真是太有趣了。天哪。

It was so fun to watch. Holy smokes.

确实如此

It was

你知道，住在洛杉矶。多么精彩的表演啊。一直都是。是的，简直不可思议。

You know, living in LA. What a show. All the time. Yeah. Just incredible.

嗯，蒂姆，和你交谈真是非常愉快，那些无论想在什么事情上取胜的人都应该读读《赢得通往伟大的无情竞赛》。下次我们再聊时，我想知道巨石强森究竟是怎么保持那样的身材的，但那可能又得花上两个小时。

Well, Tim, it's been such a pleasure talking to you and people who wanna win at whatever the thing is they wanna win should read winning the unforgiving race to greatness. Next time we talk, I wanna know how on earth the rock looks the way he looks, but that'll probably take another two hours.

我可以给你一些关于那方面的见解。

I can give you some insight into that.

是的。我听那些和他一起拍摄、合作电影的人说，几乎整个日程都是围绕他的锻炼安排的。比如，锻炼是第一位的。正如你所说，这是首要任务。没有这个，是的。

Yeah. I've heard from people who have shot with him and done movies with him that virtually the whole schedule operates around his workouts. Like, the workouts are number one. And to your point, priority number one. Without this Yes.

其他一切事物都不存在。

All other things don't exist.

确实如此。

Exactly.

我赞赏他能意识到这一点并直言不讳：这就是需要付出的代价。匿名戒酒会里有句话——你把什么置于清醒之上，复饮时就会最先失去什么。就像必须打好第一步基础，才能构建其他一切。

And I applaud him for being able to identify that and just say, hey, this is what it takes. We have a saying in AA that whatever you put in front of your sobriety will be the first thing you lose when you relapse. Like, there has to be step one that you build everything else off of.

听着，达克斯。我知道这是你公开谈论很多的领域，你愿意分享自己的故事真的很棒。但这正印证了我刚才说的每日胜利——你实实在在地追逐并保持了十六年。整整十六年啊。

Listen, Dax. I know that's an area that you've been very public with, and that's awesome that you're willing to share your story with it. But this kind of goes to what I was talking about, your wins every single day. You literally chased it and caught it for sixteen years. For sixteen years.

然后就像我简单提过的，某天胜利突然拒绝接听你的电话。于是你又得从头开始。

Then and like I said briefly, and one day winning decided not to take your call. Now you gotta start it all over again.

没错。就像某天醒来发现自己被交易到海盗队，只能指望汤姆·布雷迪接你的电话。

Yep. And then you wake up and you've been traded to the Buccaneers and you just hope you can Tom Brady answer.

这个比喻很贴切。我不确定你是否...

That's a great example. I don't if you

他是被交易到海盗队了吗？还是没这回事？

was he was he traded to Buccaneers or No.

他没有被交易。好吧。

He wasn't traded. Alright.

但我醒来发现自己换了个球队。就这么说吧。

But I I woke up on a different team. Let's just say that.

没错。正是如此。但你看，能对此一笑置之并承认它，这本身就是一种胜利。

Yeah. Exactly. That's it. But see, being able to laugh at it and admit it, that's winning.

谢谢你，蒂姆。我很感激。是的。所以各位，请购买并阅读《赢取通往伟大的无情竞赛》。和你交谈非常愉快，我能想象你在晚宴上会有多少精彩的幕后故事。

Thank you, Tim. I appreciate that. Yeah. So everyone, please buy and read winning the unforgiving race to greatness. It's been awesome talking to you, and, I can only imagine how many great off the record stories you have at a dinner party.

希望有一天我也能参加这样的晚宴。

Hope I find myself at one someday.

非常感谢。好了。大家保重。非常感谢。

Thank you so much. Alright. Take care, everyone. Thank you so much.

现在进入我最爱的节目环节——与我的灵魂伴侣莫妮卡·帕德曼一起进行事实核查。本期节目由Audible赞助。爱情有千万种模样，有时是加油站的一次偶遇演变成十年相守，有时是给某人发短信时意外坠入爱河。

And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate, Monica Padman. This episode is brought to you by Audible. Love can take many forms. Sometimes it's a chance encounter at a gas station that turns into a 10 relationship. Other times, it's texting someone you up and accidentally falling in love.

Audible的浪漫有声书系列应有尽有： relatable situationships、历史丑闻、禁忌魔法，当然还有大量只适合戴耳机收听的故事（你懂的）。听听莱恩·斯莱德和艾米丽·亨利等作家的现代浪漫喜剧，莎拉·J·玛斯和劳伦·罗伯茨最新的浪漫奇幻系列，还有《傲慢与偏见》等摄政时期经典，以及各种火辣内容。

Audible's collection of romance audiobooks has it all. Think relatable situationships, historical scandals, forbidden magic, and, yes, plenty of stories that are headphones only. Wink. Wink. Hear modern rom coms from authors like Leanne Slade and Emily Henry, the latest romanticy series from Sarah J Maas and Lauren Roberts, regency favorites like Pride and Prejudice, plus all the steamy stuff.

无论是公爵、亿万富翁还是夜之庭院的翼族领主，当你注册audible.com/dax的30天试用时，你的第一段伟大爱情故事将免费开启。欢迎来到事实核查环节。

Whether it's a duke, a billionaire, or a winged lord from the night court, your first great love story is free when you sign up for a thirty day trial at audible.com/dax. Welcome fact.

所以你旅行回来了。

So you're back from your trip.

是的。尽管遭遇了无数轮胎危机，我们总算回来了。旅途中爆了六个轮胎——准确说不是备胎，是拖车的主胎。去的路上爆了一个，没千斤顶，只能开上垃圾堆把拖车一侧顶起来换胎。

Yes. Despite many, many tire challenges, we've returned. We blew six spare well, not spares, regular tires on the trailer. We blew a tire on the way up. Didn't have a jack, had to drive up on a bunch of garbage to get one of the tires of the trailer up in the air so that we could take it off.

我带了个备胎。备胎撑到杰克逊霍尔，从蒙大拿回程时换了备胎，结果又爆一个，换上备胎后下一个又爆了，单轮开到沃尔玛停车场，在爱达荷睡了一夜，早上买了两新胎（累计四个）。回加州路上又爆一个，只得去维克托维尔给拖车那侧换两新胎。总计六个...其实还欠一个，有个轮毂完全损毁还没换胎，得在把拖车还给克莱·科恩前搞定。

I had a spare. Spare got us a Jackson Hole, replaced the spare on the way home from Montana, blew one, put the spare on, blew the next one, drove on one wheel to a Walmart parking lot, went to sleep in Idaho, got up in the morning, got two new tires, that puts us at four. Then on the way back, one blew again in California, then had to go into Victorville, get two new tires for that side of the trailer. So all in six, well, I still owe one. There's still a rim that's destroyed with no tire on it that I've got to replace before I return the trailer to Clay Cohen.

呼...我们周日上午11点出发，原计划当晚到家，结果却在沃尔玛停车场过夜。

Whoo. We left Sunday at about 11AM. I thought we'd get home that night. Instead. We were at a Walmart parking lot.

然后我们早上九点从那儿出发。我心想，哦，大概下午四点就能到家吧。结果晚上八点才到，差点没赶上。

Then we left there at nine in the morning. I thought, oh, we'll be home at, I don't know, 4PM. Home at 8PM. Barely made it.

那可够久的。我看到你见了亚当·格兰特，他还给我发了张照片。

That's a long one. I saw you saw Adam Grant. He sent me a picture.

啊，他发了？是啊是啊，亚当人很好。后来我们去了...这个估计都不能提。

Oh, he did? Yeah. Yeah. Adam was sweet. And we went to I guess we're not allowed to even talk about it.

反正我们参加了个左右两派的聚会，有些来自右翼和左翼的大人物，讨论蒙大拿州的议题。感觉特别像光明会。但奇怪的是在场每个人都挺正常的。你猜我还见到谁深聊了？

But we went to a meeting of folks, left and right, some major players from the right and the left to chat about topics in Montana. It felt very illuminati. But at the same time, everyone there was kind of normal. You know who I got to see and really chat with?

谁啊？

Who?

埃里克·兰德。

Eric Lander.

哇，厉害。

Oh, cool.

哦，他本人比我们通过视频会议想象得还要有趣得多。

Oh, he's just he's even more fun in person than we thought he would be from that.

太棒了。视频会议嘛。是啊，他真的很聪明。

That's awesome. Zoom call. Yeah, he's so smart.

而且很风趣。现实中他非常活泼，个子还特别高。知道现实中还有谁特别高吗？阿图尔·加万德。

And playful. He was really playful in real life and very tall. You know who else is really tall in real life? Atul Gwande.

真的吗？

Really?

没错。你从房间另一头就能注意到他。高大、清瘦、英俊。很有型。是的。

Yes. Like you see him from across the room. Tall, lean, handsome. Cool. Yeah.

有点像我们所有嘉宾的重聚。

Kind of like a reunion of all our guests.

现场有很多我们过去的嘉宾。是的。可能还有些未来的嘉宾。我想我为我们争取到了西德·阿瑟。

There were many of our past guests there. Yeah. And probably some future ones. I think I got us Sid Arthur.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

来自万雄之帝。

From Emperor of All Male.

是的，太不可思议了。

Yes. That's amazing.

我能描述一下他的样子吗？

Can I describe what he looked like?

当然可以。

Sure.

好吧。我不确定是否被允许谈论这个。他们确实说过不要讨论此事。但不管怎样，那里有一位科学家或医生，我分不清。

Okay. I don't know if I'm allowed to be talking about this. They did say don't talk about it. But at any rate, there was one scientist there or doctor. I couldn't tell.

每次这个人开口，都展现出深厚的生物学知识。外表看起来还像个摇滚明星，穿着皮夹克，留着些凌乱的胡须。

Every time this person spoke, they were very knowledgeable on biology. Also looked like a rock star. Leather jacket, kind of scruffy beard.

哦。

Oh.

印度人，长发。我立刻觉得，这就是《侏罗纪公园》里的杰夫·高布伦，摇滚明星生物学家。我被他迷住了两天。然后在第三天发现那是西德·亚瑟。

Indian, long hair. I immediately was like, this is Jeff Goldblum from Jurassic Park, rock star biologist. And I was mesmerized by him for two days. And then I found out on the third day that was Sid Arthur.

哇，真酷。是啊。

Wow. Cool. Yeah.

对哦，非常兴奋，

Was very excited about Oh,

阿什和艾米莉亚那期节目，我们没有做事实核查。我想补充一点，你可以把NFT称为艺术。好吧。根据阿什顿的说法。

Ash and Amelia, that episode, we didn't do a fact check. And one thing I wanted to add was you can call NFTs art. Okay. According to Ashton.