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今天的嘉宾是现代创业的真正传奇人物，但原因并非你所想的那样。
Today's guest is a true icon of modern entrepreneurship, but not just for the reasons you think.
你认识马克·库班，他是亿万富翁科技创始人、大胆的投资人，达拉斯小牛队的老板，也是《创智赢家》节目中十五季以来深受喜爱的声音。
You know Mark Cuban as the billionaire tech founder, bold investor, and owner of the Dallas Mavericks and a beloved voice on Shark Tank for over fifteen seasons.
但他也是一个始终专注于事物如何运作、如何修复破损之处、以及如何从零开始创造更好事物的人。
But he's also someone who's always been laser focused on how things work, how to fix what's broken, and how to create better from the ground up.
马克的奋斗始于12岁时兜售垃圾袋，最终实现了57亿美元的退出。
Mark's hustle began selling garbage bags at just 12 years old, and he worked his way to a $5,700,000,000 exit.
他数十年来不断建立企业、投资创业者，颠覆了从媒体到医疗的各个领域，最近更是创立了Cost Plus Drugs，挑战大型制药公司，为医疗保健带来真正的透明度。
He spent decades building businesses, investing in founders, disrupting everything from media to medicine, most recently founding cost plus drugs to challenge big pharma and bring real transparency to health care.
但现在，他离开了《创智赢家》的舞台，卖掉了对小牛队的控股权，重新思考成功、遗产和时间的真正含义。
But now he stepped off the shark tank stage, and he sold his controlling stakes in the Mavs, rethinking what success, legacy, and time actually mean.
在这次对话中，我们追溯到他的童年、第一次重大商业成功，以及塑造他的思维方式。
In this conversation, we go all the way back to his childhood, his first big business win, and the mindset that shaped him.
我们讨论了从第一天起创业究竟需要什么、关于创业的种种误解，以及他如何向三个孩子传授关于抱负、金钱与意义的观念。
We talk about what it really takes to start a business from day one, the myths about entrepreneurship, and what he's teaching his three kids about ambition, money, and meaning.
好的，马克。
All right, Mark.
很高兴你来这里。
I'm so happy to have you here.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thanks for having me.
我很兴奋。
I'm excited.
不。
No.
我也很兴奋。
I'm excited too.
我再也无法更兴奋了。
I couldn't be more excited.
显然，你和我是在《创智赢家》上认识的，那应该是几年前的事了。
Obviously, you and I met on Shark Tank, which was, I don't know, a couple of years back now.
我有幸连续三季坐在你旁边。
I had the distinct pleasure of sitting next to you for three seasons.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们总是把新人安排在
They always put the rookies next
我旁边。
to me.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
They do.
我也问过。
Well, I asked as well.
就像说，哦，你问了吗？
Was like, Oh, did you?
哦，很好。
Oh, good.
嗯，它
Well, it
如果在pitch期间或pitch之间，我能坐下来向你提问，那真是非常值得的时间投入，我确实这么做了。
was just a very good use of my time if during the pitches or or between the pitches, I could just, like, sit and quiz you on things, which I did.
但显然，你已经离开了这么多年。
But obviously, you've stepped away after so many years.
那是什么原因呢？
What was it?
十四季吗？
Fourteen seasons?
十五季。
Fifteen.
十五季。
Fifteen seasons.
我的意思是，这简直难以置信。
I mean, that's kind of unbelievable.
你怎么知道是时候退出了呢？
How did you even know that it was time to step away?
我的意思是，每年我都会错过我儿子的生日，因为我们总是在他生日那会儿拍节目。
I mean, I've been missing my son's birthdays every year because we shot a pod right at his birthday.
我错过了他们返校、毕业的时刻。
I miss them going back to school, finishing school.
总是这样：‘等爸爸做完《鲨鱼坦克》再说吧。’
And it was always, Okay, we can't do this till dad's done with Shark Tank.
真的该走了。
And it was just time.
我的孩子们分别是15岁、18岁和21岁。
My kids are 15, 18, and 21.
我最大的孩子明年就要大学毕业了。
And my oldest is going to graduate from college next year.
我只是不希望处于一种情况，比如我去参加《创智赢家》的时候，他们却已经离开了。
I just don't want to be in a position where like, Okay, I'm going to Shark Tank and they're gone.
我错过了很多事。
And I missed a lot of it.
所以，这是一大原因，就是多花点时间陪家人，真的该放手了。
And so that was one big piece, just spending more time with family and it was just time.
你知道，同一件事不可能一直做下去。
Know, can only do the same thing so long.
做了这么久。
For so long.
但有意思的是，你经常听到很多女性为了家庭而放弃事业中的某些东西，但很少有男性谈论这种取舍，以及以这种方式工作所带来的代价。
But it's interesting because you hear so many stories about women that give up certain things in work for the family, but not so many men talk about that and the trade offs that come along with like working in that way.
所以听到你这样坦诚地承认，还挺有意思的，嗯，
So it's kind of interesting to hear you Yeah, admit it in a
我猜我以前从来没从这个角度想过。
I I guess I never really looked at it that way.
当我审视我生活中所有重要的事情时，这些就是最重要的。
It's just like when I look at all the things in my life that are important to me, that's at the top.
但情况并非一直如此。
And that wasn't always the case.
我并不是那种能平衡工作和家庭的人。
I wasn't one of these people who balanced work and home.
我仍然是个拼命工作的人。
I was still a grinder.
当我努力向上爬的时候，就是不停地往前冲，冲，冲，冲，冲。
And when I was trying to climb, it was just like, Let's go, go, go, go, go.
让我们进入下一章。
And let's get into the next chapter.
让我们达到下一个层级，不管那是什么。
Let's get to the next level, whatever it was.
你知道那是什么感觉。
And you know what it's like.
你有年幼的孩子，对吧？
You have young kids, right?
他们是真正的人，但又不是真正的人。
And they're real people, but they're not real people.
是的。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
他们想念你，但他们其实并不知道你离开了，当你在家时，他们很开心。
They miss you, but they don't know that you're gone, really, and they're happy when you're home.
随着他们长大，情况变得更难了。
It's harder as they get older.
随着他们长大，他们有了自己的生活，想做自己的事情。
As they get older, they have their own lives and they want to do their own thing.
而你更难介入其中。
And it's harder to insert yourself.
就是，我不希望你在那里，爸爸。
It's like, I don't want you there, dad.
当这种感觉袭来时，真的触动了内心。
And then when that hits, that hits home.
你为什么待了这么久？
Why did you stay for so long?
这是一种习惯，但更重要的是，它向孩子们传递了一个信息：美国梦依然充满活力。
It's of habit, but more importantly, it sent a message, particularly to kids, that the American dream was alive and well.
你看到所有那些进来的人，比如来自莱姆比茨的艾丽卡。
That you saw all the people that came in, Erica from Lembits.
你是怎么从那里走到这里的？
It's like, how do you get from there to here?
它树立的榜样，我们所讨论的这一切，当你看到有人真正做到了，从一无所有、只是一个想法，突然之间就成功了。
And the example that it sets, all these things we're talking about, when you get to see somebody who's doing it, that went from just idea, didn't have anything, Boom.
它直接打动了你。
It just got you.
我经常这么说。
I say this all the time.
你看不到的东西，你就无法成为。
It's like you cannot be what you don't see.
对我来说，这
For me, that
这句话真棒。
That's a great line.
对我来说，这非常真实，因为你必须能够看到与你相似的人，看到自己可以成为的样子。
To me, it's so true because you have to be able to have, you know, a representation of people that feel similar to you, that you can see yourself in.
每次我得到
Every time I get
那展示了你所看不到的东西。
that show to what you don't see.
这不是吗
Isn't it
这应该是《鲨鱼坦克》的标语。
so That should be the tagline for Shark Tank.
确实应该这样。
It really should be.
确实应该这样。
It really should be.
你觉得你做出了很多牺牲吗？
Do you feel like you made a lot of sacrifices?
你能坦诚地面对自己所做出的牺牲吗？
Have you been able to kind of, I guess, level with yourself on the sacrifices that you have made?
是的，我的意思是，我从不把它们看作牺牲，因为我热爱我所做的事情。
Yeah, I mean, I don't look at them as sacrifices along the way because I love what I do.
我热爱我曾经做过的事。
I love what I did.
我热爱我走过的路。
I love the path that I took.
但有一刻，我必须诚实地面对自己：我的孩子们很聪明。
But at some point, I had to be honest with myself that my kids are smart.
他们会走自己的路。
They're going to do their own thing.
我们把他们培养成独立的人，他们终将离开家。
We raised them to be independent, and they're going to leave the house.
而他们根本不会在乎。
And they're not going to give a shit.
就是这样。
That's it.
他们会在假期回家，那会让我心碎。
They'll go home for holidays, and that'll kill me.
所以我想要抓住尽可能多的这些时刻。
So I want to catch as many of those moments as I can.
也许当他们都离开了，过着自己的生活，有了自己的孩子，一切都会改变。
Maybe when they're all gone, living their own lives, have their own kids and all that, things will change.
但目前，那就是这条路。
But for now, that was the path.
这是一个非常好的决定。
It's a really good decision.
感觉这是一个明智的决定。
It feels like a sound one.
我想回到开头。
I want to go back to the beginning.
你觉得这样好吗？
Think it's Are you okay a good with that?
我对它感到安心。
I'm at ease with it.
我的意思是，我会想念你在电视屏幕上的样子。
I mean, I will miss you from my TV screen.
没错。
That's right.
我的意思是，我觉得
I mean, I feel like
你才是人们观看这个节目的原因。
you were the reason that people watch that show.
也就是说，你是主要原因之一。
Like in so I mean, you're one of the big reasons.
你一定知道关于自己的这一点。
You must know that about yourself.
你在节目中是一个巨大的吸引力。
You were a huge draw on the show.
我觉得没有人能像你一样给出如此真诚的建议，所以我觉得你绝对是节目中的巨大亮点。
I don't feel like anyone gives as good a honest advice as you do, and so I feel like you're Yeah, massive draw on
谢谢你的认可。
appreciate that.
但我一直觉得自己才是那个创业者，对吧？
But I always thought I was the entrepreneurs, right?
每个人都玩了这个游戏。
Everybody played the game.
我会买下这家公司吗？
Would I buy that company?
我会投资吗？
Would I invest?
我对这家公司怎么看？
What do I think about the company?
我会购买这个产品吗？
Will I buy the product?
然后，你知道的，我会说我的话，做我的事，这让我很享受，对吧？
And then, you know, I would talk my talk and do my thing, which I had fun doing, right?
但没错，我仍然觉得，节目会继续下去，因为它讲的是创业者。
But yeah, I still think, you know, the show will go on because it's about the entrepreneur.
毫无疑问。
No doubt.
毫无疑问。
No doubt.
我只是觉得，你给出的建议正是人们在记下的东西。
I just feel like the advice that you gave was the stuff that people was writing down.
你知道，总是尽量给出好的建议。
You know, always try give good advice.
因为我想，你知道，他们的整个人生是什么样子，对吧？
Because You I wanted Their whole life, you know what it's like, right?
你从一无所有开始，始终充满恐惧。
You start with nothing, and it's constant fear.
你可能对自己的事业充满热情，甚至热爱它，心里也有一条明确的路，但你一半时间都吓得要死。
You might be fired up about your business, and you might love it, And in your mind, you have that path you're taking, but you're scared shitless half the time.
一个错误就全完了。
One mistake and it's over.
所以当他们走到那块地毯上，成为成千上万申请者中的一员，如果我有能帮助他们的经验，我一定会告诉他们。
And so when they get to that carpet and they're one of the thousands of people who applied and they get there, you know, if I have experience that could help them, I'm going to give it to them.
100%。
100%.
我一直以来也是这么想的。
I always felt the same like that.
如果有人已经走到这一步了，我至少应该坦诚地告诉他们我的真实想法，让他们至少带走一些东西，即使他们没有获得投资。
If somebody has made it here, the very least I could do was be honest and tell them what my And actual they opinion at least leave with something, even if they don't leave with investment.
因为这才是目标，对吧？
Because that's the goal, right?
即使
Even if
不是一笔投资，对吧？
it's not a check, right?
因为鲨鱼投资你这件事。
Because the thing about a shark investing in you.
不仅仅是那笔钱。
It's not just the check.
还有其他的价值和附加价值你可以带来，而你一直在这方面做得非常好。
There's other value and other value add that you can bring, and you were always really good about that.
当他们带来一个符合你专长的人时，我就知道：我准备好了。
When they brought somebody that was in your wheelhouse, I was like I'm ready.
我退出了。
I'm out.
让艾玛自己去处理吧。
Just let Emma do her thing.
对吧？
Right?
你总是说：做这个。
You were always like, do this one.
我会说：马克说我要做这个。
I'd be like, Mark said, I should do it.
我知道，因为你很厉害。
I know because you're good.
对吧？
Right?
我就能看到他们的表情，他们直勾勾地盯着你。
It's just like I can see the look on the face, and they're staring right at you.
对。
Right.
不。
No.
他们确实如此。
They do.
部分。
Part.
真的如此。
It really is.
而且，你知道，我是个情感很丰富的人，但我真的能感受到，你能看出他们有多紧张、准备得多充分。
And also, feel, you know, I'm such an emotional girl, but I really felt you can see how nervous they are, how much they're prepared.
而且就这样空手出来，感觉真的挺多的。
And to walk out with seemingly nothing, like, it's a lot.
你知道的，这种曝光度一直都很高。
Well, you know, the visibility is always good.
有些公司最终会更好，因为有人进来做了更好的交易或者收购了它们，等等。
Some of the companies end up better, right, because someone else comes in and makes a better deal or buys them, whatever.
但没错，你一直有种感觉，就是我了解你的业务。
But, yeah, you always had this vibe which was like, I know your business.
你懂的？
You know?
我能帮到你。
I could help you.
那
The
问题是，我会吗？
question is, will I?
我会吗？
Will I?
我会吗？
Will I?
我的意思是，你帮助了很多人。
I mean, you helped a lot of people.
我们马上就会谈到这个。
We're gonna get into that.
但在继续谈论《创智赢家》之前，我必须回到起点，因为你是一个如此引人入胜的人。
But before we talk any more about Shark Tank, I have to go back to the beginning because you are such a fascinating person.
而我在为这一集做研究的时候，我真的学到了很多，我以为我是个
And while I was doing the research for this particular episode, I mean, I learned a lot about I thought I was a
粉丝，而且
fan and
我什么都知道。
I knew everything.
不，不需要道歉。
No no apologies needed.
我当时就想，哇。
I was like, wow.
他做了很多，最多了。
He has done a lot the most.
但我真的想更多地了解你的成长经历、你的出身，以及是什么让你萌生了创业的念头？
But I really wanna understand a little bit more about your upbringing and where you were from and also just to understand, like, what what gave you the entrepreneurial bug?
你是从谁那里学到的？
Who did you learn that from?
是的。
Yeah.
我不是从任何人那里学来的。
I didn't learn it from anybody.
更多是受我父亲和母亲的影响，他们总是说：如果你想得到什么，就必须自己去争取。
It was more my dad in particular and my mom just saying, Look, if you want something, you've to earn it.
你得自己去干。
You've to go do it.
从我小时候起，我就在宾夕法尼亚州的匹兹堡长大。
From the time I was a kid, I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
我爸爸是做汽车座椅 upholstery 的。
My dad did upholstery on cars.
所以如果你的汽车座椅破了，你就带去他那儿。
So if you had a rip in your car seat, that's where you'd take it.
我妈妈做各种零工，从没长时间干同一份工作。
My mom did odd jobs, never had the same job for very long.
我们家是不错的中产阶级家庭。
Good middle class family.
但总是这样：你想要一双新篮球鞋？
But it was always like, You want a new pair of basketball shoes?
你就去打工。
You go get a job.
所以我会上下买卖交易卡。
So I would buy and sell trading cards.
在我成为迈克尔·鲁宾之前，我就已经是迈克尔·鲁宾了。
I was Michael Rubin before Michael Rubin was Michael Rubin.
你知道，我请过迈克尔·鲁宾来过
You know, I had Michael Rubin on
图表。
charts.
它
It
像一场袭击。
like an attack.
但你说你在成为迈克尔·鲁宾之前就已经是迈克尔·鲁宾了，这很有趣，因为你们的道路非常相似
But it's interesting that you say you were Michael Rubin before Michael Rubin because you have a very similar path in
是的。
so Yes.
很多方面，他都做了自己的事情，对吧？
Many He ways, has what he did his own thing, right?
是的。
Yes.
这就是我尊重迈克尔的原因。
That's why I respect Michael.
但不管怎样，我会向我所有的邻居出售和购买收藏卡。
But anyway, so I would buy and sell trading cards to all my neighbors and everything.
有一天，我爸爸和他朋友们在打扑克。
And then one day, my dad and his buddies were playing poker.
他可能喝得酩酊大醉，对吧？
He was probably drunk out of their mind, right?
我走进去，对他说：爸爸，我想买双新篮球鞋。
And I came in, and I was like, Dad, I want to get a new pair of basketball shoes.
他看着我说：你脚上那双鞋不是还能穿吗？
He looks at me and he says, Those shoes on your feet work.
只要你有工作，就能得到你想要的一切。
When you have a job, you can get whatever you want.
我当时想，我才12岁啊。
I'm like, I'm 12 years old.
我怎么找工作呢？
How am I going to get a job?
这时他一个朋友突然说：嘿，我这里有好多垃圾袋，你可以去卖。
And one of his buddies pops up and goes, Hey, I've got all these garbage bags, and you can sell them.
这些都是垃圾袋箱子，我有几百个。
They're boxes of garbage bags, and I've got hundreds of them.
你为什么不拿去卖呢？
Why don't you go sell them?
我问：爸爸，我可以吗？
I'm like, Can I dad?
他回答：好啊。
He's like, Cool.
于是我挨家挨户地兜售垃圾袋。
And so I just went door to door selling garbage bags.
我当时说：嗨，我的
And I was like, Hi, my
我的名字是马克。
name My name is is Mark.
你用垃圾袋吗？
Do you use garbage bags?
人人都用垃圾袋，这是必需品。
Everybody does, by needs garbage bags.
所以我就会
So I'll
我永远记得，一箱垃圾袋成本是3美元。
never forget they cost me $3 a box.
我卖6美元，然后拖着它们去邻居家，做了整整一年，或者差不多那么久，成了世界上第一条垃圾袋销售路线。
I sold them for $6 and I would drag them down to my neighbor's, the world's first garbage bag route for a year or whatever.
我买了我的运动鞋，我
And I got my tennis shoes, I
太棒了。
was Amazing.
但一旦你学会如何销售，一旦你学会对人有信心地交谈，你就永远具备赚钱的能力。
But once you learn that you can sell and once you learn you have confidence in talking to people, you always have the ability to make money.
是的，确实如此。
Yes, you do.
而且显然，从小就能从父母那里理解这一点，一定非常关键。
And obviously, understanding that from your parents for a young age must have been pretty formative.
他们还教你什么？
What else did they teach you?
我爸爸七点就走了。
My dad was gone at seven a.
早上。
M.
他六点回家，根本不希望我走他的老路。
And home at six, and he didn't want me to follow his path, basically.
他会带我去他工作的地方，我打扫地板和整理东西能挣五美元，但他并不是想让我赚钱什么的，而是想让我亲眼看看这份工作有多辛苦。
He would take me where he worked, and I'd get $5 for sweeping the floor and cleaning things, not because he wanted me to make some money or whatever, but it was more he wanted me to see how backbreaking it was.
他在一次事故中失去了眼睛。
He lost his eye in an accident.
是吗。
He did.
对。
Yeah.
那真是份极其辛苦的工作。
And just it was backbreaking work.
他希望我能上大学。
And he wanted me to go to college.
我的父母都没上过大学，虽然我妈妈五十岁时回去上了学，但我的父母都没上过大学。
I mean, neither of my parents had gone to Even though my mom, when she was 50, went back, but neither of my parents had gone to college.
我妈妈生我的时候才20岁。
My mom was 20 when I was born.
我的意思是，那只是典型的那个时代，不同的年代。
I mean, it was just the prototypical, Different times.
是啊，那是不同的年代。
Yeah, was different times.
从那一刻起，我就成了一个拼命赚钱的人。
And from that moment on, I was a hustler.
我一生都在经历这种典型的打拼，无论是卖棒球卡、挨家挨户卖垃圾袋，还是卖杂志。
The whole prototypical grind in all my life, whether it was selling baseball cards, garbage bags, magazines door to door.
硬币、邮票，全都收集过，所有的
Coins, stamps, All sarread, all the
我会去参加邮票展，对吧？
I would go to a stamp show, right?
用50美分起步，离开时却带着50美元。
Start with 50¢ and leave with $50
太棒了。
Amazing.
太棒了。
Amazing.
太棒了。
Amazing.
一旦你明白了，市场就是这样运作的，你可以去销售。
Once you figure out, you know, this is how markets work and you can sell.
但你确实有这个能力，对吧？
But you had it, right?
这种 hustling 什么时候转变为对创业的渴望呢？
It's like when did the hustle turn into a thirst for entrepreneurialism?
当我意识到自己是个糟糕的员工，总是被解雇或无法忍受时，我就别无选择了。
After I realized I was a lousy employee and I was getting fired or couldn't stand it, you know, then I had no choice.
这始终是一个信号，不是吗？
It's always a signal, isn't it?
你就想，好吧。
You're like, okay.
你就想，再见，对吧？
You're like, See you, right?
真正让我醒悟的是我搬到了达拉斯。
When it really hit was I moved down to Dallas.
我跟六个男人住在一个三居室的公寓里，睡在地板上。
I was living six guys in a three bedroom apartment, sleeping on the floor.
我先做了一名酒保，然后找到了一份在一家叫Your Business Software的公司卖技术的白班工作。
And I'd gotten a job first as a bartender, then I got a day job working at a company called Your Business Software selling technology.
当时我其实不太懂技术，但我心想，我会读手册。
And I didn't really know technology at the time, but I was like, I'll read the manuals.
我会做任何事。
I'll do whatever.
一切进展得都很顺利。
And it was going along great.
我当时在赚钱，相对而言。
I was making money, relatively speaking.
然后我有机会拿到一大笔佣金。
And then I had a chance to get a big commission.
所以我有机会去拿回
So I had a chance to pick up
一大笔佣金是多少？
What was a big commission
1500美元，因为这足够让我搬出那个破地方了，我当时住在六个人合租的三居室里，睡在地上，对吧？
back $1,500 because that was enough for me to move out of the shithole I lived in because I was sleeping on the Get away from Six the 6,000 other three bedroom apartment, right?
于是我心想，好吧，这笔钱能让我搬出去。
And so I was like, Okay, this will get me out.
于是我给老板打电话，说：好吧，我要去拿这笔钱，因为我本来要打扫地板、开门营业。
And so I call my boss, and I'm like, Okay, I'm going to go pick up this check because I'm supposed to sweep the floor, open up the retail store.
他却说：不行，我需要你留在店里。
He's like, No, I need you at the store.
我对他说，迈克尔，迈克尔·休梅奇，那是他的名字。
I'm like, Michael, Michael Humecchi was his name.
我来帮你搞定。
I got you covered.
他却说，不，你需要在店里。
And he goes, No, I need you to be in the store.
所以我说，好吧，我需要这笔佣金支票。
So, I'm like, Okay, I need this commission check.
如果我去拿15美元的支票，店里也需要它。
If I go pick up a check for $15, the store needed it.
他需要它。
He needed it.
我到了。
I show up.
他把我开除了。
He fires me.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我在那儿干不下去了。
So, I'm done there.
我几乎在想，好吧，我得掌控自己的命运。
Almost I'm like, Okay, I got to control my own destiny.
我知道我能卖东西。
I know I can sell.
我知道我能做这些事。
I know I can do this stuff.
所以，我有个潜在客户，一家叫Architectural Lighting的公司。
So, I had a prospect, a company called Architectural Lighting.
我去见了他们，说：听好了，我穷得叮当响。
And I went to them and I said, Look, I'm broke.
我没钱做这个怎么
I don't have the money for this How
你那时候多大？
old are you at this point?
我24岁。
I'm 24.
所以我经历过各种工作，来回奔波。
So, I've been through jobs and bouncing.
所以那时候我快24岁了。
And so it's 24, almost 24.
于是我去了这家公司，Architectural Light，他们说：‘你想要的这款软件要250美元，如果你给我500美元，让我能撑过几周，如果没成功，我就帮你遛狗。’
And so I went to this company, Architectural Light, and they said, This software that you want costs $250 If you give me $500 so I have something to live off for a couple of weeks, If it doesn't work, I'll walk your dog.
我帮你拖地。
I'll sweep your floor.
我帮你洗车。
I'll wash your car.
不管要做什么。
Whatever it takes.
不管怎样都要做。
Whatever it takes.
而且成功了。
And it worked.
然后我为下一个、再下一个、再下一个公司也做了类似的事情。
And then I did something similar for the next one and the next one and the next one.
那就是Micro Solutions公司。
And that was the company Micro Solutions.
我七年没休过假，但在第八年，我们把它卖给了H&R Block。
And I went seven years without a vacation, But eighth year in, we sold it to H and R Block.
那是我的第一次退出。
And that was my first exit.
这太疯狂了。
That's so crazy.
那是你第一次重要的肯定吗？
Was that your first big yes?
那就是你意识到自己擅长某件事，并且找到了方向的时刻吗？
Was that the moment where you're like, understand that I am good at something and I have a path here?
是的，没错。
Yes, yeah.
因为一旦我进入科技领域，一切就定型了。
Because then once I got into tech, that was it.
因为我就爱学习这些东西。
It was over because I loved learning it.
我是这么看的，因为我没学过计算机科学。
The way I looked at it because I didn't take computer science.
所以我心想，好吧，我能理解这些，因为我喜欢学这些东西。
So I was like, Okay, I get this because I like to learn this stuff.
直到现在，花时间学习技术对我来说依然很有趣。
And even to this minute, putting in time to learn technology, it's fun to me.
对我来说，我的大脑天生就和它合拍，我对此充满热情。
To me, my brain just clicks with it, I get excited about it.
好吧，我正在学习这个新东西。
Okay, I'm learning this new.
当你在学习这类东西，同时又拥有销售背景和流程背景时，你就可以把你知道的一切应用到像《鲨鱼坦克》这样的公司上，对吧？
And when you're learning stuff like that and you have a sales background and a process background, you can start applying everything that you know to Like Shark Tank Company, right?
《鲨鱼坦克》的公司进来了。
Shark Tank Company walks in.
一分钟内，我就完全明白他们是怎么赚钱的、做什么业务、哪些技术有效、哪些无效。
In a minute, I know exactly how they make money and what they do and what technology works and doesn't.
这让我在微解决方案公司取得了成功。
And that allowed me to be successful at microsolutions.
之后，我买卖股票，创办了一家对冲基金，并在九个月内把它卖掉了。
After that, I bought and sold stocks, started a hedge fund, and sold it within nine months.
我们当时简直所向披靡。
We were just killing it.
就在那时，我知道自己走上了一条正确的道路。
And so that's when I knew that I was on a path.
你从Microsolutions学到了什么？
And what did you learn from Microsolutions?
因为从技术角度来看，那是完全不同的时代，当时一切都非常新颖，简直像西部荒野一样，你到底发现了什么别人还没发现的东西？
Because that was like a different time from a technology perspective, It was brand new and almost kind of like a wild, wild west in a way, Like what did you actually figure out that no one else had figured out that way?
让我们脱颖而出的是，我很快意识到，卖一台电脑是一回事。
What separated us, I figured out really early on that it was one thing to sell a computer.
而写软件是另一回事，于是我自学了编程来实现它。
It was another thing even to write software, and I taught myself how to code to put on there.
你自学了编程？
You taught yourself how code.
那时候你是怎么做到的？
How did you do that at that I
我会花上好几个小时。
would spend hours.
我记得我会走进一家公司，说：好吧，这个能帮助你们提高盈利能力。
I remember I would walk into a company and say, Okay, this will help you become more profitable.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
更高效、更盈利、更具竞争优势，整个技能体系。
More productive, more profitable, better competitive advantage, the whole skill.
我会为你编写软件，费用是X美元。
And I'll write the software for you and it'll cost you X amount of dollars.
不管花多长时间，都只收你X美元。
No matter how long it takes me, it'll be X amount of dollars.
因此，压力全在我身上，我常常抬头一看，发现自己面前真摆着一桶烤肋排。
And so the pressure was on me, and I would find myself I'd look up, and I literally would have a bucket of ribs.
太恶心了。
It was gross.
一桶的和
A bucket of And
毛巾。
towels.
我就胖了20磅。
And I just I gained 20 pounds.
吃这些排骨吧。
Chomp on these ribs.
但我一抬头，已经过去了二十个小时，甚至二十五个小时，因为我太专注了，完全忘了时间。
But I looked up and it'd be twenty hours later, twenty five hours later because I was concentrating so hard, I lost track of time.
于是我将所学的一切都用上了，然后我意识到真正让我们脱颖而出的是将个人电脑连接起来，这在当时是全新的概念。
And so I was able to take all that I learned, and then what I realized that really separated us was connecting PCs together was brand new.
那时候，人们会带着软盘到处走，甚至无法连接打印机。
And back then, people would have a floppy disk and they'd walk around, or they couldn't even connect their printers.
现在看来这简直不可思议，但我还是会去这些公司。
Now that seems insane, but I would go into these companies.
我会向你们展示如何将所有这些打印机和电脑连接起来。
I'm going to show you how I can connect all these printers and all these computers together.
你们可以共享数据，提高盈利能力，我会编写软件让这一切更简单。
You can share data, become more profitable, and I'll write software to make it easier.
然后我知道，我赢了。
And then I knew I won.
你一直都有这种高度集中、专注并吸收信息的能力吗？
Have you always had that ability to to really concentrate and focus and double down and take in and absorb information?
你以前就是那种类型的学生吗？
Were you that type of student?
是的。
Yeah.
是也不是。
Yes and no.
这要看话题。
Depends on the topic.
你知道的，如果是体育方面，那当然。
You know, if it was sports, yeah.
这是你享受的事情，
It's something you enjoyed,
是的。
Yeah.
当你意识到我喜欢科技时，我根本不知道自己能做这些。
You And could do once I realized I liked tech because I had no idea.
我真的完全不知道。
I had literally no idea.
但你提到这很有趣，说它很有趣。
But it's interesting that you say it was fun.
就像运动一样，是你喜欢的事情。
Like, it's something just like sports that you enjoyed.
你一直在大口吞下所有信息。
You were just gobbling up with the ribs all the information.
但就是这样。
But that's it.
你当时觉得这很有趣。
Were like, was fun.
但你心里想的是：我在做这件事。
But you were like, I'm doing it.
直到今天，直到此刻，只要我多出一分钟，我就会拼命学习关于人工智能的一切，因为有个15岁的孩子正像呼吸一样自然地吸收这些知识。
To this day, to this minute, if I have an extra minute, now I'm learning all I can about AI because there's some 15 year old kid that's just glomming onto this like it's second nature.
如果我不懂，他或她就会把我打得落花流水。
And if I don't know it, he's going kick my ass or she's going kick my ass.
而如果我懂了，我就会把他们打得落花流水，对吧？
And if I do it, I'm going to kick their ass, right?
我毫不怀疑。
I have no doubt.
大家好啊？
What's up, guys?
我是卡琳斯·迪拉德·巴塞特，前《华盛顿郊区的主妇》演员。
It's Candace Dillard Bassett, former Real Housewife of Potomac.
我是迈克尔·阿塞纳尔特，《我不能约会耶稣》这本《纽约时报》畅销书的作者。
And I'm Michael Arsenault, author of the New York Times bestseller, I Can't Date Jesus.
欢迎收听《非家庭化》播客，我们不只是大声念出唱诗班的歌词。
And this is Undomesticated, the podcast where we aren't just saying the choir parts out loud.
我们把一切都摆在餐桌上，邀请你来参加这场活动。
We're putting it all on the kitchen table and inviting you to the function.
如果你准备好接受一些大胆的观点和一点混乱，欢迎来到《非家庭化》。
If you're ready for some bold takes and a little bit of chaos, welcome to Undomesticated.
请关注并收听《非家庭化》，它在所有播客平台均可收听。
Follow and listen to undomesticated available wherever you get your podcasts.
我想聊聊broadcast.com。
I wanna talk about broadcast.com.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
显然，它是一家早期的互联网广播初创公司，现在看来这简直是个双重矛盾。
Obviously, it was an early Internet radio startup, which feels like a double oxymoron now.
我，早期的互联网广播初创公司。
Me Early internet radio startup.
它是第一家流媒体公司，没有之一。
It was the first streaming company, period.
但那是你人生中的一个重大转折点
But that was a massive turning point for you in
哦，你的生活。我的朋友托德·瓦格纳来自印第安纳州，我们当时在加利福尼亚比萨厨房吃午饭，他说：‘一定有办法让我们在这里达拉斯听到印第安纳篮球比赛’，因为当时——
Oh, your life My buddy, Todd Wagner from Indiana, we were having lunch at California Pizza Kitchen, and he was like, There's got to be a way we can listen to Indiana basketball down here in Dallas because at the time Or
解决体育赛事的方案，马克。
way solving for sports, Mark.
对吧？
Yeah, right?
是的。
Yeah.
因为当时，印第安纳州布卢明顿的某个人必须把收音机放在办公室的免提电话旁，然后我们在达拉斯这边用免提电话收听比赛。
Because at the time, somebody in Bloomington, Indiana had to put a radio next to a speaker phone in their office, and then we would have a speaker phone down in Dallas, and that's how we listened to gigs.
不，那根本不是。
No, why it was not.
是的。
Yes.
而当时互联网正在兴起，那位先生。
And now the internet was happening, and Mr.
我这个极客就说：好吧，我知道网络是怎么回事，因为Microsolutions就是做这个的。
Geek here was like, Okay, I know what networking is all about because that's what Microsolutions did.
让我想想办法。
Let me figure something out.
因为如果成功了，就不存在距离了。
Because if it works, there's no distance.
没时间了。
There's no time.
你可以随时随地观看或收听任何内容。
You can watch anything or listen to anything anywhere.
所以我们于1995年成立了一家名为AudioNet的公司。
So we started as a company called AudioNet in 1995.
当时，我们称之为互联网广播。
Back then, we called it Internet broadcasting.
当时没有人进行直播。
And nobody was streaming.
没人。
Nobody.
我们心想：天哪。
And we're like, Oh, shit.
好吧。
Okay.
我们来看看能做些什么。
Let's see what we can do.
于是我去了当地一家广播电台KLIF，直接把一台八小时的录像机连接到他们的播音设备上，录制他们的广播节目，存到八小时的录像带上，然后带回家编码，再上传到我们的网站audionet.com。
So I went to a local radio station, KLIF, and literally we connected an eight hour VCR to their board and took the output of their radio and recorded it on eight hour VCR tapes, took it back to my house, encoded it, then put it on our website, audionet.com.
我会去所有这些论坛、Prodigy、CompuServe和互联网上。
And I would go on all these forums and Prodigy and CompuServe and the Internet.
我会说：如果你住在达拉斯，是达拉斯人，想了解达拉斯的体育和新闻，你得完成这五个步骤，但之后你就能做到了。
And I would say, Hey, if you live in Dallas and you're from Dallas and you want to know about Dallas Sports and Dallas News, you have to do all these five steps, but then you can do it.
第一天，有10个人。
And then first day, 10 people.
第二天，100个人。
Next day, 100 people.
下个月，1000个人。
Next month, 1,000 people.
然后我们开始不断增加更多的广播电台。
And then we started adding more and more radio stations.
大概六个月后，我们就能实现直播了。
And then probably six months later, we were able to do live.
你知道这会改变你的生活吗？
Did you know that that was going to change your life?
你当时觉得，这就是开端吗？
Were you like, This is the beginning?
是的，因为我记得曾和所有人开过会，说：如果这件事能按我设想的那样发展，这家公司将值50亿美元。你
Yes, because I remember having a meeting with everybody and saying, If this works the way I think it'll work, this company's worth $5,000,000,000 You
我知道。
knew that.
我心中毫不怀疑，因为它改变了所有事情。
Without any doubt in my mind because it changed everything.
每个人都觉得我是个傻瓜，对吧？
And everybody thought I was a moron, right?
伙计，我们打开电视就行了。
Dude, we'll turn on the television.
伙计，我只要打开收音机就行。
Dude, I'll just have to turn on the radio.
但我却想，在办公室里，你不能就这么做。
But I'm like, In an office, you can't just do that.
这里没有电视。
There's no televisions here.
也没有收音机。
There's no radios.
现在情况不同了，但那时候没有这些设备。
Well, it's different now, but back then there weren't.
所以它是你桌面上唯一的媒体设备，而且带宽更大。
And so it was the only media device on your desktop, and they had more bandwidth.
所以人们会听小熊队的比赛。
So people would listen to Cubs games.
人们会听来自海外的足球和橄榄球比赛。
People would listen to soccer, football from overseas.
那是他们获取这些内容的唯一方式。
It was the only way they can get it.
那时候的法律是不一样的。
Back then, laws were different.
我可以直接走进百思买，买200张CD，把它们编码后放到我们的点唱机里，让大家听所有内容。
I could just walk into Best Buy and buy 200 CDs and encode them and just put it on our jukebox and people could listen to everything.
我们有400多个广播电台。
We had 400 plus radio stations.
我们全年无休地循环播放圣诞音乐。
We played Christmas music on loop all year long.
我的意思是，你在Spotify上看到的所有内容。
I mean, just all the stuff that you see on Spotify.
然后我们进入了视频领域。
And then we got to video.
你在YouTube上看到的所有内容，我们在1995年、1996年、1997年、1999年就开始做了，直到2000年把公司卖给了雅虎。
All the stuff you see on YouTube, we were doing in 'ninety five, 'ninety six, 'ninety 07/2008, 'ninety nine until we sold to Yahoo in 2000.
这太疯狂了。
Which is insane.
我的意思是，你把这家公司以多少钱卖给了雅虎？
I mean, the idea that you sold that company to Yahoo for how much?
57亿美元，所以
$5,700,000,000 So
你是对的。
you were right.
这值50亿美元，真的值。
This is worth $5,000,000,000 It really was.
结果是这样。
It turned out.
你就像，叮。
You're like, ching.
太棒了。
Amazing.
那时候你有很多合伙人吗？
Did you have a bunch of partners at that point?
我们已经上市了。
Well, we had gone public.
我们在1998年7月上市的。
And so we went public in July 1998.
当时，Broadcast.com的首次公开募股是股票市场历史上最大的首日涨幅，这
And at the time, the broadcast.com IPO was the biggest first day leap in the history of the stock market, which was
太酷了。
so cool.
这太太
That's so So
酷了。
cool.
因为我们一上市，股市就收盘了，股价从18美元涨到72美元，最后收在62.75美元。突然间，我身价三亿美元，我们直接去了酒吧，打开电视。
Because the minute we went public, and then the stock market closed, and it went from $18 up to $72 and then finished at $62.75 And all of a sudden, I was worth $300,000,000 we went straight to a bar and we turned on yeah.
所以我们让他们打开了CNN和所有电视频道。
So we had them turn on CNN and all the networks.
每次提到Broadcast.com和IPO，我们就喝一口。
And every time they mentioned broadcast.com and the IPO, we took a shot.
我们根本停不下来。
We couldn't fast.
天啊。
See Oh my God.
那完全太快了。
It was completely fast.
第二天我们还得回去工作，因为就像我告诉每个人的那样
And then we had to get back to work the next day because like I told everybody
是啊，你得让股价继续上涨。
Yeah, you got keep that stock price rising.
对，对。
Right, right.
这些人信任我们。
These people trusted us.
太棒了。
Amazing.
他们把辛苦赚来的钱投了进来，结果很好。
Put their hard earned money in, it worked out.
所以给我讲讲雅虎这笔交易吧。
So take me inside that Yahoo deal.
你学到了什么？
What did you learn?
它教会了你什么？
What did it teach you?
嗯，那里有很多方面。
Well, there's a bunch of pieces there.
我们在IPO后不久以100万美元的价格让他们成为投资者。
We brought them in as an investor for only $1,000,000 right after the IPO.
一百万美元。
A million dollars.
那只是公司的一小部分。
That was a tiny smidgen of the company.
但我们想要访问雅虎网站，只是想要建立连接。
But we wanted access to the Yahoo website, And we just wanted the connection.
所以那是一个有价值的部分。
So that was a valuable part.
这并不完全是关于金融，它不是
It wasn't necessarily about the finance It wasn't
一个财务投资者。
a financial investor.
是战略性的。
Was strategic.
战略性的。
Strategic.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们是战略投资者。
And so they were strategic investors.
然后突然间，有些人说，哦，他们只是做互联网广播。
And then all of a sudden, people that, Oh, they just did Internet radio.
不。
No.
我们发明了所有这些与众不同的东西。
We invented all these things that were different.
我真希望当时申请了专利。
And I wish I'd gotten patents.
是啊，这真让我痛心。
Yeah, it just kills me.
很有趣的是，我把这个发到了社交媒体上。
It's so funny because I posted it on social.
我找到了一封我们专利律师以前写的信，上面列出了所有你可以申请的专利。
I found an old letter that our patent attorney had written said, Here's all the patents you can apply for.
那时候，我说：我们太忙了。
And back then, I'm like, We're too busy.
我们正准备出售公司。
We're getting ready to sell the company.
一切都会发生，哪
And everything happens Which
这太疯狂了，因为每当我听到你这个故事时，你只想到成功。
is so crazy because whenever I hear this story about you, like you only think about the success.
你只想到什么？
You only think about what?
他建立了这家公司，把这些东西放一边。
He built this company, put aside these things.
本该值钱的。
Would've been worth.
否则他告诉
Else It told
价值一万亿美元，就像整个是否
is worth $10,000,000,000,000 Like the whole Does
一直困扰着你吗？
that haunt you?
这让你烦恼吗
Does that bother you
因为我现在很富裕，所以我过得不错。
at because I'm really well off, so I'm okay.
你就说：我很好。
You're like, I'm good.
一路上我错过了很多东西，但我现在有钱了，我也满足了。
There's a lot of shit I've missed along the way that I have more money, and I'm good.
你过得不错。
You're good.
在某些方面，这让我很生气，因为人们只是以为那只是网络广播，对吧？
In some respects, it pisses me off because people just think it was internet radio, right?
如果我当初得到了
If I'd gotten
嗯，不对，你没有因为那个公司所产生的一切而获得应有的认可。
the Well, wrong yeah, you don't get the credit that you should have for everything that came out of that company.
是的，我们
Yeah, we
开创了整个事业。
started the whole thing.
我的意思是，如果雅虎没有搞砸的话，就不会有Spotify。
I mean, literally, if Yahoo hadn't screwed it up, there'd be no Spotify.
也不会有YouTube。
There'd be no YouTube.
但是，马克，这真的和你当时无法去申请那些专利有关吗？
But, Mark, was it really about the time that you not being able to actually, like, go out and get those patents?
还是说你当时就已经意识到自己在创造什么了？
Or did you actually understand what you were creating at that point?
还有你所创造的价值，但你只是
And the value you And But you just
无法去
couldn't go
因为你的想法和别人完全不同。
out Because you were to different than everybody else.
我们把所有人都碾压了。
We were kicking everybody's ass.
我的意思是，我们真的是前十名的网站。
I mean, we were a top 10 website, literally.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我们有数百万用户。
I mean, we had millions of users.
数以百万计的人在观看流媒体。
Millions of people were streaming.
我们做的在线视频是别人做不到或还没做过的。
We were doing video online that nobody else could do or had done.
这很有趣。
It was fun.
那公司有多大？
And how big was the company?
那时候有多少人？
How many people at that point?
三百人。
Three thirty.
是的，但你必须专注，对吧？
Yeah, but you have to focus, right?
即使有300人，你也得专注于自己要实现的目标。
Even with 300 people, it's like you've got your things that you're trying to achieve.
是的。
Yeah.
你必须专注，全力投入这些事情。
And you have to focus and double down on those things.
你没时间去想别的，那不是关于所有附属事务的。
You didn't have time to go out and think about No, it wasn't about all the ancillary stuff.
对，没错。
Yeah, right.
那时候我们只想赢。
It was like, we have to win.
这是一个竞争激烈的行业，所以我们必须专注于成为最好的直播平台，无论内容类型是什么。
It's a competitive business, and so we have to stay focused on being the best streamer, whatever the type of content.
但像插入广告、在内容前弹出视频广告这些现在人人都在做的事，我们那时候就已经在做了，已经整整三十年了。
But things like inserted ads, things like pop up video ads in front of content, all these things that people do today, we were doing And it's been thirty fucking years.
这太疯狂了。
It's insane.
甚至想想都觉得不可思议。
Actually is insane to even think about.
所以，我们现在习以为常的很多东西，其实都是你们那时候发明的。
So you actually, like there's so much of what we take for granted now that you guys just invented at that point.
我简直不敢相信。
I can't even believe that.
我想知道，当你拿到雅虎这笔交易时，结果和你预期的一样吗？
I wonder, so when you get this Yahoo deal, did it turn out as you had expected?
不。
No.
所以，有两个方面。
So, two pieces.
第一，我们是以股票形式出售的，你知道，这不是现金。
One, we sold in stock, which is not cash, as you know.
是的，不是。
No, it's not.
是的，不是。
No, it's not.
因为那时候，在互联网股票市场，股价上涨，股价下跌，股价又上涨。
Because back then, in the internet stock market, stocks went up, stocks were going down, stocks went up.
我觉得自己是个亿万富翁。
And I'm like, I'm a billionaire.
我喜欢这样。
I like it.
我不愿意冒这个险。
And I don't want to risk it.
我不需要更多的钱。
I don't need more money.
我需要保护我已有的东西。
I need to protect what I got.
于是，我做了一件叫做领口策略的事情，我卖出了我们从雅虎获得的雅虎股票的价外看涨期权。
And so, I did this thing called a collar where I sold out of the money calls on the stock that we got from Yahoo on Yahoo stock.
我还买入了认沽期权，以保护我从
And I bought puts to protect the downside from the money I got from
出售中获得的资金。为我们详细解释一下，可能有人不太明白。
selling Explain that really slowly for us that might not understand it.
一股
A share of
股票。
stock.
获得了雅虎股票。
Got Yahoo stock.
我们卖出了所谓的看涨期权。
And we sold what are known as calls.
股票的看涨期权赋予你卖出对象购买该股票的权利，价格为指定价格。
Call on a share of stock gives somebody that you sell it to the right to buy that share of stock at whatever the price is.
就像未来某个时间点的预定价格。
Like a predetermined price down the road.
如果雅虎股票是100美元，我卖出了期权，你可以以120美元的价格购买，同时你付给我一笔钱。
So if Yahoo stock was $100 and I sold it, you can buy this at $120 and you pay me some amount of money for that.
这就是卖出看涨期权。
That's selling a call.
然后我用这笔钱买入了看跌期权，这是相反的操作。
Then I took that money and I bought a put, which is the opposite side.
它能保护下行风险。
It protects the downside.
说的是如果雅虎股票
Says if Yahoo stock
你真聪明，跌得够惨的。
You're smart falls ass over there.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以如果雅虎股票跌到我买入的水平以下
So if Yahoo stock falls below the level I bought
你就能得到保护。
You could the be protected.
你必须以那个价格从我这里买。
You have to buy it from me at that price.
我当时就说，对啊。
And I was like, Yeah.
你真聪明
You're such a clever
操。
dick.
它
It
当然
Of course
它崩了。
it crashed.
是的，确实崩了。
Yes, it did.
整个互联网股票泡沫破裂了。
Whole Internet stock bubbled, burst.
因此，我实际上从那笔交易中赚了更多钱。
And so, I actually ended up making some more money on that.
所以，这是第一部分。
So, that was part one.
这结果还不错。
That worked out fine.
但后来当互联网泡沫破裂时，雅虎的董事会彻底慌了，因为他们的股价从几百美元跌到了几十美元甚至更低。
But then Yahoo, when that internet stock bubble burst, Yahoo's board of directors just freaked out because their stock had gone from hundreds to tens or less.
于是他们说：好吧，我们必须削减开支。
And they're like, Okay, we've to cut expenses.
所以，流媒体业务是个巨大错误，但这也正是他们削减的部分。
And so, the streaming side was a huge mistake, but that's part of what they cut.
哇。
Wow.
跟我聊聊你作为创始人与金钱的关系吧，因为我总觉得创始人的历程太不稳定了。
Talk to me about your relationship to money as a founder because I just feel like a founder's journey is so uneven.
你一直一无所有，一无所有，还是一无所有。
It's like you've got nothing, you've nothing, you've nothing.
然后希望最终能有所收获。
And hopefully you get something.
有点东西。
Something.
而且可能太多了，你不知道该怎么处理。
And maybe it's too much and you don't know what to do with it.
是啊。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这是个很好的问题。
I mean, that's a great question.
我的态度是，如果你穷的时候快乐，那么富有的时候你也会快乐。
Like, my attitude is if you're happy when you're broke, you'll be happy when you're rich.
如果你穷的时候不快乐，再多的钱也无法让你摆脱不快乐。
If you were miserable when you were broke, there's no amount of money that's going to change you from being miserable.
所以，当我睡在地板上的时候，我依然很开心。
And so, when I was sleeping on the floor, I still was having fun.
你给我的感觉是个即使落魄也能快乐的人。
You strike me as the type of guy that was broken happy.
我是。
I was.
现在不开心了。
Wasn't happy now.
那不一样。
To be That's different.
但不管怎样，我都会找乐子。
But I was going to have fun no matter what.
所以，当我卖掉Microsolutions时，我得到了200万美元，当时我29岁左右。
And so, when I sold Microsolutions, I ended up with $2,000,000 And I was 29 years old, give or take.
于是我花12.5万美元买了一张美国航空的终身通行证，那是……
And so, I bought a lifetime pass on American Airlines for $125,000 That's
很划算。
a great deal.
天啊。
Oh, my God.
这是一笔划算的交易。
It's a great deal.
因为在我心里，我已经退休了。
Because in my mind, I was retired.
29岁？
At 29.
29岁。
At 29.
是啊。
Yeah.
我人生中唯一的使命就是像摇滚明星一样狂欢。
My only mission in life was to party like a rock star.
因为我要做的所有事，就是拿着这张卡走到美国航空柜台出示一下就行。
Because all I had to do, I had this card that I could walk up to American Airlines and just show it.
我当时其实住在洛杉矶，离这儿不远。
And I was actually living in LA, not far from here.
我就想，好吧，我去夜店找新朋友。
And I was like, okay, I'd go out to the clubs and find a new friend.
你不是。
You're not.
我们要走了。
We're going off.
我们去拉斯维加斯吧。
Let's go to Vegas.
我们去伦敦吧。
Let's go to London.
我们去任何地方吧。
Let's go wherever.
你用过它吗？
And you used it?
哦，你那125美元值回票价了吗？
Oh, Did you get your money's worth out that $125
是的，确实用了。
yes, fucking did.
而且那是终身通行证。
And it was lifetime pass.
但你还是不能现在就这么用它。
But still you can't just you can't just still use that now.
我本可以，但我把它给了我爸爸。
I could, but I gave it I gave it to my dad.
当我爸爸去世后，我把它给了一个朋友。
And when my dad passed, I gave it to a friend.
哦，这真是太好了。
Oh, that is so lovely.
嗯。
Yeah.
这太符合你的风格了，马克。
That's so you, Mark, to do that.
但我相信你在面试中已经充分利用了它。
But I'm sure you got your use out of it in the in the interview.
天啊。
God.
我们回到钱的问题上。
So back to the money.
当你大约29岁时，你会拿到200万美元。
So you get $2,000,000 when you're about 29.
下一大笔钱要等到你解决了它才会到账。
The next big chunk of money doesn't come until you've solved it.
嗯，不是这样的。
Well, not right.
于是我拿了那200万美元，最初我告诉我一位也是朋友的股票经纪人，我要你像给60岁的人那样投资。
So I took that $2,000,000 and initially I told my stockbroker, who was a buddy of mine, I want you to invest like a 60 year old.
我要你把钱投到债券里，因为我打算靠这笔钱生活。
I want you to put it in bonds because I want to live off of this.
利率更高。
Interest rates were higher.
我想靠这笔钱生活一段时间。
I want to live off of this for a while.
不过，你当时有没有觉得，那200万美元已经让你算成功了？
You had a sense, though, that $2,000,000 you'd kind of made it at that point?
或者你知道自己会赚很多钱。
Or you knew you were going to make loads
不，钱并没有。
No, of money didn't.
在你的我并没有。
In your I didn't.
我愿意长期过着像学生一样的生活。
I was willing to live like a student for a long time.
但后来发生的是，我跟我的经纪人聊天，他问我很多关于微解决方案的问题，而我因为了解这些所以能回答上来。
But what came along was I talked to my broker and he would ask me all these questions about stuff I knew because of microsolutions.
然后我会看到那些在高盛工作的人，在CNBC或其他当时的媒体上发言，说的正是我所说的话，股票就会随之涨跌。
And then I'd see these people who worked, it was Goldman Sachs, worked for Goldman Sachs, on CNBC or whatever it was back then and say exactly what I said, and the stock would go up or down.
我的朋友说：‘你对这些玩意儿的了解比我们的人还深。’
And my buddy was like, You know this stuff better than our guys do.
你应该去买卖这些股票。
You should be buying and selling these stocks.
于是我回答：‘好吧，我就试试。’
So I'm like, Okay, I will.
结果我大获全胜。
And I just crushed it.
我的意思是，赢疯了。
I mean, crushed it.
我把那两百万翻了倍。
I turned that 2,000,000.
我都不记得最后变成了多少。
I don't even know what it ended up being.
15.2亿美元。
$1,520,000,000.
对吧？
Right?
然后我就想，好吧。
And it was just like, Okay.
接着我们开始直播，这让我能够继续下去。
And then we started broadcast, and that allowed me to keep going.
你觉得你与金钱的关系是如何影响你早期的创业决策的？
How do you think that your relationship with money shaped your early decisions as an entrepreneur?
当然了，对吧？
Oh, 100%, right?
我是那种会开车到处看豪宅、在车里听励志录音带的孩子。
I mean, I was that kid that drove around and looked at the big houses and listened to motivational tapes in the car.
没错。
Yeah.
我以前经常开车到处看那些大房子。
I used to drive around looking at all the big houses.
那真的是一个特别的事儿，
That was such Yes, a thing for
100%。
100%.
我就想，这些人到底做什么工作？
I'm like, What do these people do?
他们是怎么做到的？
How did they get there?
他们拥有什么是我没有的？
What is it that they have that I don't?
他们的动力是什么？
What is their motivation?
那就是我的动力。
And that was my motivation.
所以，我一直想赚更多的钱，但我始终更看重时间的使用。
And so, I always wanted to make more money, but I always wanted to use my time first.
时间是最宝贵的资产。
Time was the most valuable asset.
这正是我父亲和父母教给我的：如果你一直在做同样的工作却赚不到多少钱，我父亲从未赚过超过4万美元，你就被困住了。
That's kind of what my dad and my parents taught me because if you're grinding the same job and not really making money, my dad never made more than $40,000 and you're stuck.
你可以过上很棒的生活。
You can live a great life.
并不是说你不能享受生活，拥有一个幸福的家庭，就像我们那样，但有些事情我们做不到。
It's not like you can't really enjoy your life and have a great family like we did, but there were things we couldn't do.
有些事情，我会问爸爸：我们能做这个吗？
Things that, Hey, dad, can we do this?
或者我可以……不行？
Or can I No?
不行。
No.
不是这么运作的。
Doesn't work that way.
你找到一份工作，然后就能做了。
And you get a job and you can do it.
所以我一直想首先珍惜我的时间。
And so, I wanted to really value my time first.
当我开始赚更多钱时，我就想，好吧，我可以用这些钱做什么呢？
And then as I started earning more money, and then it was like, Okay, what is it that I can use this for?
那就是：享受乐趣。
And it was like, Have fun.
但还是觉得，好吧，我得永远存着这笔钱。
But it was still like, Okay, I need to save this forevermore.
当我们赚到数十亿时，一切就都变了，因为我想，什么能立刻改变我的生活？
And then when we hit it with the billions, then everything changed because it was like, Okay, what will change my life immediately?
于是，我连看都没看就买了一栋房子。
So, it was like I bought a house, sight unseen.
那是一栋价值2500万美元的房子。
It was a $25,000,000 house.
不，你没有。
No, you didn't.
谁会花2500万美元
Who spends 25,000,000
我在2025年花了这些钱。
I dollars did in '25.
所以情况是这样的
So what the deal was was
我以为你没买。
I thought you didn't.
你确实做了这笔交易。
You did a deal.
我确实做了这笔交易。
I did a deal right.
一直都在做交易。
Always did a deal.
这哥们，真他妈的。
This guy, damn.
我不记得这家伙叫什么名字了。
How I remember this dude's name, I don't know.
但他拥有这家公司，从未出售过任何股票。
But he owned this company, never sold a share of stock.
这是一家上市公司，从未出售过任何股票，后来公司彻底垮了。
It was a public company, never sold a share of stock, and then the company cratered.
所以他花了三年多时间，花了两千五百万美元建了这栋房子，住了八个月。
And so, he spent three years and $25,000,000 building this house, more than three years, lived there eight months.
我的朋友说：看吧，它要破产了，你可以用一千二百万买下来。他还给我看了张照片。
And my friend said, Look, it's going to go to bankruptcy and you can get it for $12,000,000 And he showed me a picture.
我说：管他呢。
I'm like, Fuck it.
完成了。
Done.
我仍然住
I still live
在不，那
in No, that
你不住
you don't
住在这
live in
房子里。
that house.
我住在同一所房子里，二十年了，从中赚了五百万。
I live in that same house twenty Get five out of it.
二十七年过去了。
Twenty seven years later on.
什么
What
一项绝佳的投资。
a fantastic investment.
那是你的房子。
That was your house.
那是你的意思，那是指
That was yours meant That to
是因为那房子太棒了，对吧？
was because it was just an amazing house, right?
直到我结婚生子之前，还有些房间我从来没去过。
Literally until I got married and had kids, there were rooms I'd never been in.
现在仍然有一些房间。
There are still rooms.
你甚至都难以在房子里走动。
You couldn't even make your way around it.
还有房间。
There are
还有房间。
still rooms.
但这说明了很多关于你的事，关于你是怎样的人，因为我觉得你对自己非常安心，一旦你找到了自己的方式，就定下来了。
That says a lot about you and who you are, though, because I feel like you are just so comfortable in who you are that once you've got your thing, that's it.
你就只会待在那儿。
You're just going to stay and
坐在那儿。
sit there.
是啊，直到我结婚前，我家里什么家具都没有。
Yeah, it was just until I got married, I had no furniture.
我只有一张沙发和一台大屏幕电视，而且那个房子特别大。
I had like one couch and a big screen TV, and it was so big.
我们甚至会在舞厅里踢足球和玩威弗球，我 literally 在房子的舞厅里装了一个篮球架。
Like, we would play football and wiffle ball in the ballroom, and I literally had a basketball hoop in the ballroom of the house.
所以我就能投几个篮。
And so I could just get some shots up.
这太棒了。
It was like Amazing.
太有趣了。
It was so much fun.
我觉得我的观众真的很想知道你是如何开始的。
I think the audience that I have really wants to understand how do you get started.
对吧？
Right?
比如，如果你有一个想法，或者你非常坚信某件事，你该怎么迈出第一步呢？
Like, if you have an idea or if you've got something that you believe in strongly, like, how do you just get out of the gate?
我觉得我真正想问你的，几乎是更重要的问题。
And I think that really what I want to ask you is almost what matters more.
是想法重要，还是执行某件事的方式更重要？
Is it the idea or is it how you execute something?
所以如果你六个月前问我这个问题，我会给你一个完全不同的答案。
So if you would have asked me this question six months ago, I would have given you a completely different answer.
嗯，我很高兴我遇到了
Well, I'm so glad I got
你现在的样子。
you now.
对吧？
Yeah, right?
因为人工智能。
Because of AI.
就在今天早上，我收到一个高中生的问题，我收到的邮件太多了。
Literally, this morning, I got a question from a kid in high school, and I get so many emails.
但偶尔会
And every now and then
你回答问题的能力简直不可思议
You are unbelievable at answering
嗯，如果是我喜欢的人，我会立刻回复。
the Well, if somebody I like, I'm going to respond immediately.
但有时候，我会想，哦，这是个孩子发来的。
But every now and then, I'll be like, Okay, it's from a kid.
让我看看他问了什么。
Let's see what the question is.
他说，还是同样的问题。
And he said, Well, same question.
你该怎么开始呢？
How do you get started?
我当时就想，好吧，你首先要做的就是学习人工智能。
And I was like, Okay, first thing you have to do is learn AI.
无论是ChatGPT、Gemini、Perplexity还是Claude，你都必须花大量大量大量时间去了解它的工作原理以及如何提问。
Whether it's ChatGPT, Gemini, Perplexity, Claude, You've got to spend tons and tons and tons of time just learning how it works and how to ask a question.
你现在就是在做这个吗？
Is that what you're doing at the moment?
你正在花时间。
You're spending time.
是的。
Yes.
所以给我详细讲讲吧。
So talk me through that.
那是什么样子的？
What does that look like?
如果你现在是个创始人，想学习人工智能，你会怎么做？
If you're a founder right now and you want to just learn AI, what are doing?
只是向它提问。
Just asking it questions.
只是向它提问。
Just asking it questions.
并尝试所有新出现的东西。
And trying everything that comes out that's new.
这就像我刚起步时的早期阶段。
It's like the early days when I first got started.
每天都有新的技术出现。
Every day there was a new technology.
每天都有新的软件。
Every day there was new software.
每天电脑和网络都在变快，带宽也在提升。
Every day the PCs and the networks were getting faster, and bandwidth was getting faster.
所以，就是不断地惊呼：天啊，天啊。
So, it was just a constant, Oh my God, oh my God.
现在AI也是这样。
And AI is the same way now.
你会对那些说‘但我并不喜欢AI’的人说什么呢？
What do you say to someone who says, Yeah, but I don't like AI.
我不希望我的生活中再有更多技术了。
I don't want any more technology in my life.
那答案是什么？
Like, what is the answer?
你完蛋了。
You're fucked.
差不多。
Basically.
就是这样。
That's it.
这就像生死攸关。
It's like do or die.
是的。
Yeah.
这就像是说，以前有人觉得，我不需要使用电脑。
That's like saying, in the day, people, I don't need to use a PC.
我不需要使用互联网。
I don't need to use the internet.
我不需要手机，也不需要Wi-Fi。
I don't need a cell phone, Wi Fi.
那些企业都倒闭了。
And those businesses died.
完了。
Done.
还有这么多类似的例子，对吧？
And there's so many examples of that, right?
很多品牌没有转型，没有更新，没有做他们该做的事，就倒闭了
Brands that just didn't transition, didn't update, didn't do what they needed to do, they died in
他们只是勉强搭上了互联网的车，却没搞明白。
They lobbied onto the internet, didn't figure out.
就像你得学习的所有那些关于大美利坚滑板的事情一样。
It's just like all the stuff you have to learn for Great American Skims.
这永无止境。
It's never ending.
这是一场永无止境的竞争。
It's a never ending competition.
现在，你的生意比以往任何时候都更难做。
And now your business is harder than it's ever been.
最难的，最难的，而且每天都在变化。
The hardest, the hardest, and changes every day.
每一毫秒都在变。
Every millisecond.
如果你看过谷歌那边的东西，对吧，人们只是输入一些内容，就能生成很棒的内容。
If you saw the stuff that came from Google, right, where people are just typing in things and creating great content.
难以置信。
Unreal.
我的意思是，我
I mean, I
上周我参加了谷歌峰会，当时他们正在
was at the Google summit last week where they were So
他们给你展示了所有这些
they showed you all
就是这样，对吧？
this, right?
因为他们想让你看到这一切。
Because they wanted you to see all this.
你根本无法想象你所看到的这一切不是真实的。
You can't even fathom that what you're looking at isn't real.
我想，等等。
I'm like, Wait a minute.
这到底好在哪里？
What is so good about this?
他们说：嗯，这个提升了300%。
And they're like, Well, 300% this.
不。
No.
这简直是最真实的东西了。
It is like the realest stuff ever.
现在，有个好消息：这一切包含多个部分，对吧？
Now, good news So there's multiple parts to all this, right?
如果你是个创业者，或者想成为创业者，只要开始尝试使用它，了解它是如何运作、如何进行提示，它就会像一位导师。
If you're an entrepreneur or want to be an entrepreneur and you start playing with it to get a sense of how it works, how to prompt, it becomes like a mentor.
它就像拥有一千位商业教授组成的整个团队。
It becomes like having an entire staff of a thousand business professors.
这就是你对它的看法。
That's how you're thinking about it.
是的。
Yeah.
因为你仍然需要足够聪明才能做到这一点。
Because you still have to be smart to do it.
如果你对我说，马克，我需要一个关于Skims的广告。
If you would say to me, Mark, I need a commercial for skims.
我知道怎么使用所有这些技术。
Like, I know how to use all the technology.
我可以输入提示词，但我没有这方面的创意能力。
I can type in prompts, but I don't have the creative side of it.
我不懂，比如你用35毫米相机、这种光线时，需要什么样的光圈、什么样的角度，以及想要什么样的效果。
I don't know like, okay, if you're using a 35 millimeter camera and this type of light, you need this type of aperture and you need this type of angle and you want these.
所以，专业细节依然非常重要。
So, like, nuance of expertise is still really important.
更重要。
Oh, more important.
你给AI越多，就能从它那里得到越多，对吧？
And the more you give in AI, the more you're getting out of it, right?
这是我有限的理解。
Like, that's my limited understanding.
它的好坏取决于你给它什么。
It's as good as what you give it.
对。
Correct.
现在，它会生成一些你根本无法想象的东西。
Now, it's going to come up with stuff that you couldn't even fathom.
它就是这么厉害。
It's that good.
而且这是终极的时间节省技巧，因为现在，好吧，把它们剪辑在一起。
And it's the ultimate time hack because now, okay, edit that together.
看看它看起来怎么样。
Let's see what it looks like.
然后你查看每日素材，心想：好吧，这看起来不错。
And then you look at the dailies, and you're like, Okay, that looks good.
好吧，再拍一点，看看我们会得到什么。
Okay, let's shoot a little bit more and see what we get.
现在你不用再拍那些没用的东西了。
Now you don't got to shoot shit.
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