247. 领导力并不酷

我们过去常在餐桌团队讨论我们的顾问。你知道，全球有50位顾问与我们共事。我们常说，要成为一名优秀的顾问，你得有点书呆子气。你必须对组织健康和帮助客户如此痴迷，以至于根本不在乎他们是否觉得你很酷。欢迎来到《餐桌对话》，这档播客节目聚焦于领导力与团队协作、组织健康与文化之间的交汇点。

We used to talk about our consultants at the table group. You know, have 50 consultants around the world that do our stuff with us. And we used to say, if you're gonna be a good consultant, you have to be a little bit dorky. You have to be, like, so geeked out about organizational health and about helping your clients that you really don't care if they perceive you as cool. Welcome to At the Table, the podcast that lives at the intersection between leadership and teamwork and organizational health and culture.

我是主持人帕特·林乔内，与联合主持人科迪·汤普森一起。今天怎么样，科迪？

I'm Pat Lincione, your host joined by my cohost Cody Thompson. How you doing today, Cody?

还在呢，帕特。非常好。

Still here, Pat. Doing great.

这就够了。今天的话题是什么，科迪？

That's all I can ask. What's the topic today, Cody?

领导力并不酷。

Leadership isn't cool.

是啊，我真的很喜欢这个话题。灵感来自我最近看到的一项研究——三位教授进行的调查（居然有人专门研究这个真让我惊讶）。他们试图定义什么让人显得酷。虽然不知道谁批准了这类研究，但他们跨文化、跨语言、跨国界地探索了人们眼中的酷特质，最终归纳出六个特征，这些发现对领导力及领导者是否该追求酷感很有启发，这就是我们今天要讨论的。

Yeah, really love this topic. It came from something I saw recently. There was a recent study done by three professors, and I'm amazed that people get to study these things, but they decided to look at the definition of what made a person cool. Again, don't know who green lights these studies, but they did it across cultures and languages and nations, and so they studied what is it that makes somebody be perceived as cool. And they came up with six attributes, and they're really interesting, and it says a lot about leadership and whether leaders should be cool, and that's what we're gonna talk about today.

没错帕特，听起来像中学生研究什么是酷，但深入探讨职场、商业和生活中社会大众认为领导者的酷标准会非常有趣。

Yeah, Pat. I love it sounds like a study done by some middle schoolers to figure out what's cool, but this will be really interesting to dive into like, hey, in the context of work and business and life, what does the general society think is constitutes a leader being cool?

知道吗？我得说句暴露年龄的话——在我们那个年代，'酷'这个词本来已经不流行了，直到《欢乐时光》里的方齐出现。他做了个标志性动作说'酷'，原本很傻气，但经他演绎后这个词就复兴了。据我所知，从那以后说'酷'就一直很酷。

And you know what? I I will say this and I'll make myself look old and some people that are a little older will like this, but the word cool was no longer cool when I was a kid until Fonzie came along from Happy Days. And he's he did this thing, he'd go cool and it was totally dorky until he did that and then it brought it back and as far as I can tell it's been cool to say cool since then.

那我换个说法帕特，想想什么让领导者'时髦'如何？这个表达是不是更对你胃口？

Well, to translate to you Pat, think it's what makes a leader groovy. Is that is that more does that work for you better?

对，在方齐之前就是这么说的。

Yeah. That's what it was before that.

好的。

Okay.

在此之前。因为我本身就很嬉皮，所以这确实很契合。他们发现的六个形容词列表如下：第一个是“爱冒险的”，这是其一；下一个是“自主的”，我当时想，哦，好吧。

Before that. Because I'm such a hippie so it really works out. So here is the list of six adjectives that they discovered. Okay, the first one was adventurous, that was one, okay. The next one was autonomous, I thought oh, okay.

接着是“开放的”，我不太确定具体含义，但他们是这么说的；另一个是“外向的”，你可能觉得这似乎不太搭，对吧？但这些还算温和，只是四个词而已。真正引起我注意的是后两个。科迪，让我警觉的是他们并未将此视为问题。大家反而觉得‘嘿，这很有趣不是吗？’

The next one was open, I'm not exactly sure what that means but that's what they said, and the other one was extroverted, which you know, you think like that doesn't seem to fit, right? But this is relatively benign, know, these are just four words. But the next two are the ones that caught my attention. And what caught my attention Cody, was that they didn't present this like it was a problem. Everybody was like, hey isn't this interesting?

我认为这非常成问题，因为凑齐这六个特质中最后两个被定义为酷的是“有权势的”和“享乐主义的”。权势与享乐——仅这两者结合就极其危险。一个天生倾向权力与享乐的人，若有人不知享乐主义何意，它指的是将快乐置于万物之上的理念，追求快感而逃避痛苦。

And I think it's really problematic because the next two attributes of a person who's considered cool to round out the six is powerful and hedonistic. Powerful and hedonistic. And just those two together, the combination of those two things is really really dangerous. A person that is both naturally inclined toward power and hedonism, and if people don't know what hedonism is, it's the idea that pleasure is more important than anything. Seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.

所以一个追逐自身快感的有权者绝不该成为领袖。是的，这正是今天想探讨的——很多人渴望当领导，可能是任何场景下的领导，他们会想‘我真希望能酷一点，被看作那种人’，但我们绝不能成为那样。

So a powerful person who's seeking their own pleasure should never be a leader. Yeah. And that's what I want to talk about today, it's like many times people wanna be a leader. This could be in any kind of a situation, and they're like, man, I would really like to be kinda cool and considered that kind of person, and we just can't be that way.

没错。帕特，这话题会很有意思，因为我们刚做过一期剖析何为伟大的节目。关于他们得出的结论，我有几点想探讨。此外，我可能还想回溯这项研究的起源——记得我这几周对你说过，错误问题的正确答案仍是错误答案。他们设定‘什么让领袖显得酷’而非‘有效’，若探索其他特质或许更有趣。但既然着眼‘酷’，我们可能从一开始就偏离正轨了。

Yeah. This will be really fun to explore, Pat, because I, you know, we talk about we we just had an episode about dissecting the goat. Like, what makes a And great so there's there's a couple things I'd love to explore the actual answers they came up with. But additionally, I'm I may wanna go back to the, like, the origin of this study. Right?

就像我们暗示的——最近几周我对你说过——错误问题的正确答案仍是错误答案。他们研究‘什么让领袖酷’而非‘高效’，若探索其他特质或许更有价值。但既然锁定‘酷’，我们或许从根基上就错了。

Like, the idea that, like, we are suggesting you know, I I've said this to you in the last couple weeks. Like, the right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer. And so the fact that they set out to say what makes a leader cool rather than effective if, you know, like any of those other attributes would have been interesting for them to explore. But the the idea that we're going down the road of what makes them cool means that we might be off the reservation to start.

公平地说，那项研究本就只关注‘什么让人酷’。

Well, to be fair, the study was just about what makes people cool.

明白。

Okay.

即便如此也很危险——‘我想变酷？那就去追求享乐、权势、自主、外向等等’。但最后两点关键在于：任何渴望显得酷的领袖——不论你是教堂牧师、公司CEO、学校校长、足球教练——若你身为领导却追求那种酷感，必将做出危险之举。想想硅谷，为何我一生总觉得那里极度缺乏伟大领袖。

But even that is kind of dangerous because like, oh, I want to be cool. Okay. Be hedonistic and powerful and autonomous and extroverted and whatever. But the last two it's like any leader that wants to be cool, and I don't care if you're the pastor of a church, the CEO of a company, the principal of a school, the football coach, if you're a leader and you want people to perceive you as having that kind of cool vibe, you are going to do dangerous things. And I think about Silicon Valley and why in my lifetime I've always found that there was a real lack of great leaders in the Silicon Valley.

现在我明白了，因为他们中很多人其实是书呆子长大的孩子，后来想变得酷一点。是的。所以享乐主义和权力的观念似乎占据了主导，我意识到这确实是件坏事。当我回想这些年来共事过的人，科迪，那些试图装酷的人共事起来真的很危险，因为没错，你永远不知道什么时候会出事，而且他们身边的人总会遭殃。

And I realize now it's because so many of them were really dorky kids who grew up and wanted to be cool. Yeah. So this idea of hedonism and power seemed to predominate and I realized that is really a bad thing. And when I think about the people I've worked with over the years, Cody, the ones that were trying to be cool were really dangerous to work for because Right. You never knew when something was gonna happen and bad things would happen to the people around them.

是啊。我觉得特别有意思的是，当你提到这点时，真正勾起我兴趣的是——你写过好几本关于领导力的书对吧？我们其实可以拿这些标准，倒过来审视人们性格中那些让他们被视为领导者的特质。我很喜欢你将其分为前四项的方式，不过我不确定你打算怎么处理后面两项。

Yeah. And I think what's so interesting, but what piques my interest when you bring this up is, like, you know, you've written books on leadership, a handful of them. You know? And I think we can actually take some of this criteria and kind of retroactively look at attributes or aspects, you know, of people's character that led them that that lend themselves to be in terms of, like, considered a leader. And I love that you broke it up in the first four, and I don't know how you wanna do this.

你是想先讨论看起来格格不入的最后两项，还是觉得值得先探讨前四项？因为一听到'外向'这个词，我立刻想到这直接排除了半数天生性格内向的人群。这很有趣。接着再看那些关于冒险精神或自主性的描述——我们还可以回头对照你写的三四本书，看看这些特质如何体现在现实里那些带领健康组织的领导者身上？

Do wanna tackle the last two that seems so out of place, or do you think, like, it's worth even exploring some of the first four and saying, does that actually because right out of the gate, when you said the word extroverted, I thought, well, half the population that just eliminates them. Right. You know, like, by nature of how they're wired. That's so interesting. And then to go into some of the adventurous or autonomous things, and and we can go back and look at, you know, the three or four different books that you've written to say, how does this fit in terms of real life, the leaders that we've seen lead healthy organizations?

没错。顺便说，这是项横跨文化、语言和国家的深度研究。中国也在研究对象之列，当然还有美国、智利、巴西等多个国家。

Yeah. Yeah. And and by the way, this was a very thorough study across cultures and languages and countries. I mean, I I know China was one of the countries on there. Of course, The US and Chile and Brazil, but I mean multiple countries.

他们通过严谨分析总结出人们最常用来描述的六个形容词。所以这绝非随意结论——这让我深刻意识到当领导者和装酷是两回事。让我们逐条分析这些形容词吧。科迪，有件事很有意思：我们曾在Table Group讨论顾问团队时说，要想成为好顾问就得带点书呆子气。我们常说，你必须对组织健康和帮助客户如此痴迷，根本不在乎他们觉得你酷不酷。

And they really did rigorous analysis and said, what were the adjectives people used to describe? And these were the six most common. So this is not just a throwaway, it's like it really makes me think that being a leader and being cool are different, and let's break it down by each of these adjectives and decide maybe we're not You know Cody, think it's something interesting to talk about here is we used to talk about our consultants at the table group, you know we have 50 consultants around the world that do our stuff with us and they work with clients. And we used to say if you're going to be a good consultant you have to be a little bit dorky. We used say you have to be like so geeked out about organizational health and about helping your clients that you really don't care if they perceive you as cool.

嗯。我们没想到这竟会被研究证实，更没想到还能解释为何领导者也不该追求酷。那么，我们就来逐条讨论这些形容词的合理性吧。

Mhmm. We never realized that this would actually get documented in a study and why we would understand why a leader shouldn't be as well. So yeah, let's go through these these adjectives and talk about what makes sense.

哈，正在听节目的顾问们要知道了——你刚说我们聘用他们就是因为书呆子气质。这下可有意思了。

Well, like that any of our consultants that are listening to this, you just told them that we hired them because they're dorky. That's gonna be really fun for them to find out live.

他们心里有数。毕竟我可是第一个这样的顾问。

Think they know. I think they know. I was the first consultant too, so.

说到这个，我觉得'开放'可能是最靠谱的领导力标准。我们总强调脆弱性——如果这意味着你谦逊、愿意认错、接纳新观点，具备韧性和适应力，那确实是条不错的标准。

Yeah. Well, so the one that actually struck me as maybe the most viable criteria for a leader was open. And we talk so much about vulnerability and if that if what they intend to mean by that is that you're humble and open to being wrong or you're open to new ideas, you're pretty resilient and adaptable, then I could see that being a pretty decent criteria.

用来定义酷吗？我当时看到'开放'就想：好领导者应该开放，酷的人可能也开放——这条倒没让我觉得矛盾。

For being cool? That was the word I thought, okay. Open, a good leader is probably open, a cool person is probably open, that one didn't seem to be that didn't cause me a lot of problem.

对。

Right.

自主性是另一个特质。这并非坏事。当然，你不能完全独来独往，必须注重团队协作。但我觉得要成为优秀领导者，确实需要一定程度的自主性。而且我认为，一个酷的人往往自主性很强，比如不太在意他人看法。

Autonomous is another one. Now, that's not a terrible thing. Now, you can't be like a go everything on your own, you have to be group oriented. But I suppose it's good to have some level of autonomy if you want to be a good leader, and I guess you can see a cool person being autonomous in terms of like not really caring what other people think of them too much, I suppose.

是啊。如果这里的自主性是指许多领导者需要挑战现状，或者他们更习惯于特立独行，而不是随大流。这种解释我能理解。冒险精神？这个特质让我觉得特别有意思。

Yeah. If if they mean it in the sense of, like, a lot of leaders have to push against the status quo or they're more comfortable being sort of unique rather than, you know, like in the flow of of how everybody tends to operate. I could see that being a thing. Adventurous? That struck me as really interesting.

没错。人们通常认为酷的人都具有冒险精神。这可能和开放心态有关，比如乐于尝试新体验。越读这些特质我越觉得自己一点都不酷——我的孩子们也会这么告诉你，这点很明确。

Yeah. I mean, a cool person is perceived as adventurous. I guess that kinda goes with open, like, once new experiences, I don't know. The more I read this I go, I am so not cool. My kids will tell you that too, so that's clear.

说到冒险精神，可能意味着愿意承担某些风险。这对领导者或许是好事，不必过分谨慎。但接下来外向性这点我就完全无法理解了——无论是从领导力还是酷的角度。实际上我觉得酷的人应该偏内向，因为他们神秘寡言，让人好奇他们到底在想什么。

But so adventurous, maybe there's a certain openness to some risk. And maybe that's a good thing in a leader not to be too concerned about that. So maybe those three now extroverted, that just doesn't make any sense to me. Neither from leadership nor from being cool. In fact, I'd have thought a cool person is kind of introverted because they're kind of mysterious and they don't talk a lot, and they're like, oh, what's going on in there?

我记得有句话（忘了出处）：少说话，人们会因此高估你的智慧。所以沉默的人常被认为很酷，因为你不知道他们可能只是无话可说。当然这只是我的猜测。

Where where was it that they said, I don't know if where it was where somebody said don't talk a lot because people will attribute you to being more intelligent than you are. And so I kind of think really quiet people get perceived as cool because you don't know that maybe they don't have a lot to say. I don't know.

确实。最后这两个内向特质...

Yeah. It really is these last introverts

他们并非无话可说。但总体而言，我一直认为内向的人更容易显得酷。

don't have a lot to say. They do, but I mean, I always thought you'd want to air on the side of introversion to be cool.

没错。我很喜欢你这样的分析框架，因为最后两个特质至少还能讨论。但享乐主义这个就太突兀了，完全出乎意料。

Yeah. So it really is the I love that you set it up that way because it really got to the last two where it was like, they they all seem at least in some way arguable or understandable. And then when you got to hedonistic, that part seemed like it was way out of left field.

最初我在电视节目看到这个研究，后来查资料时发现，无论是节目还是文章，居然没人对享乐主义提出异议。在这个时代，人们似乎认为追求快乐逃避痛苦是理所当然的。但作为领导者，若只顾享乐逃避痛苦就糟了——我们在《动机》等多本书里都强调过：领导者必须有为他人承受苦难的意愿，这在我看来是领导力的核心定义之一。

And when I saw this presented on a TV show first and then I went and looked it up, everywhere both on the TV show and on the in the articles, nobody actually raised any alarm about it. They didn't say hedonism, wow, well that's not good. And I guess it's because we live in a time where people think it's okay to pursue pleasure all the time and to avoid pain. But of course if you're a leader and you're avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure, you are in big trouble because you have to be willing as a leader, we talk about this in the motive and so many of our books, you have to be willing to suffer for others. That's the that to me is one of the core definitions of leadership.

你承担着没有实际投资回报的责任，仅仅因为这是领导者的职责。追求享乐与成为领导者本质上是相互对立的。

You're taking on responsibility with no real ROI, but just because that's the job of a leader. And to be hedonistic and to be a leader is absolutely counter to one another.

实际上，我的思路正是围绕‘动机’这个词展开的，因为你在书中真正阐述了动机的概念。你提到以奖励为中心的领导者会放弃的五件事，从而提出了两种领导类型：以奖励为中心（这符合享乐主义逻辑——‘这对我有什么好处？能带来快乐吗？’）和以责任为中心（其核心是‘即便我不喜欢、不享受，也要服务于他人’）。

Well, and and actually it was exactly the motive is where my brain went around that word because you're really representing in that book the motive, you know, you talk about five things that reward centered leaders abdicate. And so you you position the idea that there are two types of leadership, reward centered, which would actually make sense if you're hedonistic. Like, what does it do for me? How does it bring me pleasure, joy, etcetera, and responsibility centered, which is the opposite of saying, hey. In spite of the fact that it's not, something I don't enjoy, that it's not doesn't bring pleasure to me, it's serving other people.

这正是让我感觉它与我们关于优秀领导者的核心方法论彻底分道扬镳的地方——动机问题恰恰是我关注的重点。

And this is where it felt like it just so divulged from our core methodology about what what makes a great leader that that's the one the motive is exactly the place that I went for this.

没错。那些人是为了自己才那么做。因为被人认为酷本质上是在说‘这对我有利’。但想想看，我遇到过那么多并不酷的管理者和领导者，我依然爱戴他们，甚至愿意为他们赴汤蹈火——我根本不在乎他们酷不酷。

Yeah. Right. And, yeah, those people are doing it for themselves. Because to be perceived as cool is largely like, yeah, that would benefit me. But think about I mean, I've had so many managers and leaders that were not particularly cool and I loved them and I'd walk through walls of fire for them and I didn't care if they were cool.

我觉得这也适用于育儿。父母不该追求在孩子眼中显得酷。一旦这么做，往往就不是在为孩子的最佳利益行事，而是在满足自我感觉良好的虚荣心。现在想想那些糟糕的著名领导者，很多人其实都痴迷于耍酷。

And you know, I think this relates to parenting too. Parents should not want to be seen as cool by their kids. And when you do, you usually aren't doing the thing that's in the best interest of your kids, but you're doing something that's gonna make you look better I guess, and feel better about yourself. So yeah, I mean, this is crazy. Now I think I want everybody to look back and think about famous leaders they know that are bad, And many of them are obsessed with being cool.

无论是政客、企业领袖，甚至是大教堂里注重打扮、刻意营造酷形象的牧师——这种表象往往是后续问题的前兆。

And whether it's politicians or leaders within companies, or and I think about even in like big churches when like pastors are kind of into them, they dress cool and they try to look cool. Oftentimes, that's a precursor to to problems that are gonna be coming down the line.

帕特，这让我想起你曾分享过《CEO的五种诱惑》的创作故事。其中一种诱惑就是过度在意他人看法、渴望被喜爱。某种程度上，‘被喜爱’和‘耍酷’正是我们试图剖析的心态——你宁愿像变色龙般迎合，也不愿坚持原则直抒己见。你观察过的某些CEO正是如此：他们认为被视作酷或讨喜比履行本职更重要。

You know, Pat, it makes me think of another you know, you actually have told stories to me about how you came up with the five temptations of a CEO. And one of the temptations is this idea that the way that you're perceived, the the that you wanna be liked. And in some ways, being liked and being cool, that's I think that's, some of the sentiment around what we're trying to tease out is you're willing to kind of be a chameleon rather than be principled and direct. And so there is there are stories that you had of people that you had observed in a CEO seat that said it was more important that I was perceived as being cool or being liked than it was that I did the responsibilities of my job.

是的。我曾合作过一位CEO——这促成了我的处女作《CEO的五种诱惑》（其模型与《团队协作的五种障碍》一脉相承）。最让我震惊的是：即便公司濒临倒闭，只要他能在CNBC等节目上找借口搪塞并保持光鲜形象，他就心满意足。业绩不达标、客户不满意都无所谓——只要看起来够酷。这就是我入行的契机：我意识到有人竟把‘形象高于结果’奉为信条。

Yeah. I once worked with a CEO who and and this is how my first book, The Five Temptations of a CEO, which preceded the five dysfunctions of a team because the models are very parallel. The very first thing I noticed was I worked with this guy who even if his company was failing, but he went on TV and described on CNBC or whatever show it was and he had a good excuse for it and he looked good on camera, he would be really happy. It was like, well you're not making your numbers, you're not achieving what you're set out to achieve, you're not getting better, your customers aren't happy, but you're coming across as pretty cool, he was happy. So really that was the very first thing that got me into this field is working with somebody that I thought, oh my gosh, he's more interested, we called it status over results.

地位可能是最接近‘酷’的概念，而人气次之。不过有些追求人气的人未必在乎酷不酷，他们只是渴望被认可。但若既贪图地位又渴求人气，那就危险了——这种心态会让你做出利己而非利他、利公司的决策。

Status is probably the closest thing to cool that we've ever that we really see, and this gets right back to that. Popularity is the next one, you know, but popularity I think there's plenty of non cool people that just are like, I want to be approved of and thought well of. I don't think that's quite as accurate. But when you combine the desire to be popular and have status, you're in trouble. I mean, it you're you're gonna this just you're gonna make decisions off about yourself and not about others and not about the company.

某种程度上，这简直是享乐主义的另一种定义。让我们震惊的是：如果当领导的回报只是为所欲为、追逐私欲，那么领导者的应尽之责就会被抛诸脑后。帕特，记得《动机》书末有一页半的内容令我拍案：你痛恨‘仆人式领导’这个术语，因为它暗示还存在其他领导方式。而事实上，领导者的唯一存在意义与方式就是服务他人——享乐主义与此完全背道而驰。

Well, in some ways it sounds like another definition for hedonism. I mean, that's why this was so striking to us was if that is your reward for being a leader is that you get to do the things that you want to do, that you pursue pleasure your own pleasure, then a lot of the responsibilities that you're supposed to do as the leader go by the wayside. And I remember going back to the motive, Pat, one of my favorite portions of that book was a very well, it was maybe a page and a half at the end of that book that said, you you you you your sentiment was, I hate the term servant leadership because it implies there's another kind. And and I I love that so much because we use this phrase like, oh, there's servant leadership. Well, it implies that there's other kinds of leadership when in fact the only reason to be a leader and the only way to be a leader is to serve other people, and hedonism is the antithesis of that.

确实如此。这就是为什么整件事最让我震惊的是，竟然没人真正关注这一点。我知道他们讨论的不是领导者，但谁愿意和一个‘酷’的人做朋友？想想看，你为何要结交那些追逐权力与享乐主义的人？重申一下，若只是朋友我们该避而远之，但如果是我们要效力的对象，情况就不同了。

It really is. And that's why what shocked me most about this whole thing was that nobody actually looked at that. And I know they weren't talking about leaders, but who wants to be a friend of somebody who's cool? You know, why would you want to be a friend of somebody who's into power and hedonism? That is, again we should run for the hills, only if they're a friend, but if they're somebody we would work for.

我认为这项研究最重要的应用场景应该是董事会等选拔领导者的人群。事实上人们总喜欢聘用‘酷’的人——比如他们会说‘这位新CEO候选人特别酷，你们肯定会喜欢’。我们欣赏他们在镜头前的表现力或说服力，但如果这些特质源于对权力和享乐的病态追求，那我们就该建立预警机制。当有人说‘我们要聘用新CEO了’，我们应当追问‘请描述她是什么样的人’。

You know I think one of the biggest applications of this should be to like boards of directors and other people who hire leaders. I actually think people like to hire cool people. I mean I even think they would say that like oh this guy, this gal, bringing them on to be the the new CEO and what are they like? Oh they're very cool, you're gonna love them. And it's like we like the fact that we think they'd be good on camera or they'd be really persuasive and if that's that's done out of a desire to be powerful and hedonistic then that we should probably have a cool warning system and we should say so we're gonna hire a new CEO, tell me about her.

如果答案是‘她绝对不酷’，那很好；若回答‘她很酷’，我就要警惕了。这听起来可能荒谬——毕竟童年时我们都以为酷就是一切。但伟大的领导者极少在成长过程中显得酷，如果某人后来突然开始追求‘变酷’，就像硅谷随处可见的那类人，那很可能是我职业生涯中见过最危险的一类领导者。

Well she's definitely not cool. Okay good, good, tell Because me more, you if they're cool, I'm pretty worried. And that sounds crazy, gosh when we're kids we think that that's what it's all about. Very few great leaders grew up being cool and if they somehow kicked in later in life where they thought, now I get a chance to be cool. I mean again, the Silicon Valley is full of these people and probably one of the highest concentration of dangerous leaders that I saw in various industries in my career.

帕特，探讨到这里我想问：如果有领导者正在收听并想着‘我觉得自己挺酷的’，甚至希望团队也这么认为——根据你定义的这种特定‘酷’的标准，是否存在可能？

Well, let me ask you one question as we're exploring this, Pat, just because I what if there's leaders? I'd imagine there's a few leaders that that are listening to this who are like, I think I'm cool. You know? Like, I I I I hope so. I hope my team thinks I'm cool, but does can you and and maybe it's just this specific definition, this specific definition of being cool.

一个人能否既追求酷和受欢迎，又成为以责任为核心的领导者？

But can you strive for both being cool and accepted and being a responsibility centered leader?

主动追求就不行。如果是无意间显得酷倒无妨——比如你本色出演时，恰好被某些人认为酷（他们的标准可能是脆弱、真实、关怀他人）。但如果你在意世俗眼中的酷，就必须自省了，这很可能是个危险信号。

Well, you can't want to. If you're accidentally cool, well, good on you. But if it's only because you're being yourself and you hire the kind of people that think you're cool, which their definition might be, you know, vulnerable and authentic and caring about others, you know. So so yeah, different people can have different definitions. But if the world thinks you're cool and and and you care about that, then definitely you gotta do some self analysis because that's that could be a problem.

帕特，播客进行18分钟了，我最庆幸的发现是：我的领导一点都不酷。你简直‘酷’的反面，这让我倍感安心。

Well, Pat, eighteen minutes into the podcast and my biggest takeaway and relief is that I don't work for a cool leader. You're you're you're very uncool. So I feel I feel relieved by that.

彻头彻尾的书呆子。科迪，祝贺你追随一位不酷的领导者。顺便说，你的团队成员也同样幸运。

Positively dorky. And congratulations, Cody, for working with a non cool leader. Let me just say the people that work for you are very fortunate as well.

谢谢，帕特。

Thank you, Pat.

所以请勿追求酷，更要警惕这种价值观。当世界推崇真实与无私而非享乐与权欲时，一切都会更好。今天我们就聊到这里，对吧科迪？

Appreciate So don't be cool and guard against trying to value that. And I think the world will be a better place because authenticity and selflessness good. Hedonism and focus on power are not. So I think that's all we have to say today. Right, Cody?

听起来不错。

That sounds good.

足够了。好的。感谢大家的参与。我们下次在《At The Table》节目中再聊。愿上帝保佑。

It's enough. Alright. Thanks for joining us everybody. We'll talk to you next time on At The Table. God bless.