248. 从球场之吻镜头中领悟的领导力课程

这种情况常发生在摇滚明星、职业运动员、名人和CEO身上，因为他们开始相信一个谎言——认为自己很特别，理应享受特殊待遇，认为自己了不起，因为人们总是对他们说想听的话，更夸张地大笑他们的笑话，不断赞美他们。虽然这些不全是虚假的，但往往被夸大了，任何领导者都容易开始相信这些。欢迎来到《At the Table》播客，这里探讨文化、团队协作、组织健康与领导力的交汇点。我是主持人Pat Lencioni，今天与我在犹他州的可靠搭档Cody Thompson一起。Cody，你好吗？

This happens to rock stars and professional athletes and famous people and CEOs because what happens is they start to believe the lie that they're special and they deserve special treatment and that they're wonderful because people tell them what they wanna hear, they laugh at their jokes louder, and they praise them. And while it's not always fake, it's often exaggerated and it's easy for any leader to start to believe this stuff. Welcome to At the Table, the podcast that lives at the intersection of culture, teamwork, organizational health, and leadership. I'm your host, Pat Lancione, joined by my trusty cohost, Cody Thompson in Utah today. How are doing, Cody?

Pat，我就喜欢你用‘可靠’这个词形容我，让我感觉格外特别，谢谢。

I love it when you throw the word trusty in there, Pat. Makes me feel extra special, so thank you.

今天我们为这期播客准备了一小时左右，讨论过程很有意思，我觉得这会是一期有趣的节目。Cody，主题是什么来着？

Well, we took about an hour preparing for this podcast today. We had quite the interesting conversation about it, and it's going to be an interesting podcast, I think. What's the what's the topic, Cody?

《接吻镜头下的领导力启示》。

Leadership lessons from the Kiss Cam.

没错。现在媒体和社交媒体对酷玩乐队演唱会接吻镜头事件的舆论风暴已逐渐平息，我们想冷静审视此事，探讨对领导者和组织的教训。因为抛开所有表情包和玩笑，这对至少两个家庭乃至公司都是极其悲剧的境况。有些话题需要被讨论，领导者尤其需要倾听，因为他们比其他人更容易陷入这类问题——这正是我们今天要探讨的。

That's right. We are going to go back. Now that the the firestorm in the media and in social media has kinda passed from the Coldplay concert Kiss Cam incident, We wanted to take kind of a sober view of this and talk about lessons for leaders and organizations because because in spite of all the memes and the the jokes, this is really a tragic, tragic situation for two families at least, and for a company to a lesser extent. And and there's some things that probably need to be talked about that leaders need to hear because leaders are more susceptible to these kinds of problems than others, and that's what we're gonna talk about today.

是的。我在社交媒体上看到这件事时，最主要的情绪是悲伤——为涉事家庭、相关人士和婚姻感到难过。因此，如果我们能通过这场关于生活、工作与领导力的对话，帮助人们预见并避免可能登上接吻镜头的行为...

Yep. I would I would say my primary emotion when I saw that on social media was just sadness, like, for the family, for the people involved, for the marriage. And so to the extent that we can have a conversation that intersects between life and work and leadership that would prevent or help people sort of see this coming and prevent them from engaging in anything that would wind up on a kiss cam,

对，就这么做。哪怕因此有一个人避免了这种事，也值得。我直说吧，我们将聚焦那位CEO。

Yeah. Let's do that. Yeah. If one person avoids this because of that, it's worth it. Let me say right off the bat, we're gonna focus on the the CEO.

我们注意到有两位高管牵涉其中，其中一位还是HR负责人，从企业角度看更添八卦色彩。但这可能发生在男性或女性身上——我们会频繁用‘他’指代CEO，因为在我三十年的CEO咨询生涯中，亲眼所见的五个类似案例全是男性。CEO似乎特别容易陷入这种问题。

We realized two executives were involved, and the fact that one was in HR, it makes it all the more salacious and interesting from a corporate perspective. But this could be a man or a woman situation. We're gonna be saying a lot of he because we're gonna be referring to the CEO a lot. And because I've actually, in my career, in, like, thirty years of consulting to CEOs, I've seen and I have to say, like, the five examples of this that I've seen have been guys. And CEOs seem to be very susceptible to this problem.

总之，我们想探讨为何领导者会遭遇这种情况，以及事情可能并非非黑即白。因为关键在于——并非每位听众或全球领导者都面临这种风险，但它几乎可能发生在任何人身上。我宁愿通过警示性讨论让人震惊从而避免悲剧，也不愿假设你们不需要听这些，而后有人懊悔‘要是五年前听过这个就好了’。我相信这两位当事人职业生涯早期，甚至几年前都可能说过‘这绝不可能发生在我身上’。

And and and, anyway, we wanna talk about why it happens to leaders and why it might not be as black and white as we think. Because here's the deal. I don't think everybody listening to this podcast or every leader in the world is at risk of this happening, but it could happen to almost anyone. And I would rather shock people by scaring them and talking about how to avoid this then assume that you don't need to hear this and have somebody later say, man, I'd heard that five years ago, it wouldn't have happened. Because I think this guy and this gal probably would have said at one point in their career, maybe even a few years ago, that could never happen to

没错。Pat，你提前讨论时提到的这点很关键。他们很可能都说过‘绝无可能’这种话。

Yeah. I I you've met you said that point, Pat, as we were having this conversation in advance, and I think that's that's something people should lean into. I think probably both of them would have said, hey. You know what? There's no way.

我绝不会那样做，没有任何路径、诱惑或诱人时刻能让我动摇。结果他们却陷入了非常公开且尴尬的境地。所以我认为这是一个需要清醒认识的警示——就像你说的，不是以猎奇的方式，而是我们作为领导者如何设立界限，不仅是防御性界限，更要思考如何避免自己陷入类似情境。

There's no way I would, like there's no path that I would take, no incentive or enticing moments that I would lean into. And then they wound up in a very public and embarrassing situation. And so I think it is a a sober minded scare to say, like, hey. Let's just take a look at this. Like you said, not in a salacious way, but how do we as leaders put parameter not not just defensive parameters, but how do we think about situations like this in a way that would prevent us from ever winding up in that scenario?

确实。为了避免误解我要特别声明——科迪和我讨论过这个话题，我们始终对妻子忠诚。但我们并非要标榜自己高人一等，那些犯错的人...

Exactly. And it's worth saying this just in case anybody's wondering. To be very clear, Cody and I, and we've talked about this, have never we've been faithful to our wives. And so but we're not here to say, oh, we're high and mighty, people that done this are

全都...

all do

都是人渣。我们也不是在找借口，想想那些家庭的遭遇——每个和我聊过的人都说：你能想象他妻子和她丈夫的感受吗？我们不会为他们开脱，不会含糊其辞说'你要理解'，这太恶劣了。

they're all dirtbags. Now we're also not making excuses because what happened to those families and, man, everybody I talked to says, can you imagine being his wife and her husband? So we're not making excuses for them. We're not gonna limp we're not gonna say, well, you know, you have to understand. It was horrible.

虽然我无法完全感同身受，但我认识不少犯过这种错的人，我理解领导者为何会沦陷。今天我们要探讨的正是——当人们拥有权力、名声等领导特质时，究竟是什么导致了这些事发生？

But and though I can't relate to it in exactly the same terms, I know enough people that have done this, and I can see how this can happen to leaders. And that's what we wanna talk about today is what happens to people when they're in a position of leadership, which is power and fame and all these other things. What happens that leads to these things happening?

帕特，你准备的几点思考对讨论很有帮助。虽然你可能不会逐字念，但要不要先为整个对话做个开场白？

And, Pat, you know, you had you had wrote written up a couple thoughts that actually is super helpful to frame up the conversation. And I know you're probably not gonna read them, but do you wanna just kinda tee up the whole conversation so we can dive in?

好。我认为最关键的是——成为领导者后，你会暴露在某些谎言中，若轻信这些谎言就会改变世界观。我在《动机》书中写道：领导者应以责任为核心（为他人），而非以回报为核心（为自己）。但没人天生免疫，我们都可能失足。

Yeah. I think that I think the biggest thing we wanna focus on is that when you become a leader, you're susceptible you're you're exposed to certain lies that if you believe them, you will start to change your outlook. You know, I wrote a book called The Motive, which talks about if you're a leader, you should be responsibility centered. You know, it's about others rather than reward centers, which is about what you get out of leadership. But nobody nobody's born one way or the other, and we can slip.

说到这个我想起Coldplay主唱——讽刺的是他和演员妻子离婚后，女方竟为那家公司拍广告，太荒谬了。摇滚明星、运动员、名人和CEO常陷入这种陷阱，因为他们开始相信自己很特殊，理应获得特殊待遇。人们放大对他们的奉承，虽然不全是虚假的，但容易让领导者信以为真，开始想'也许我确实这么特别'。

So you become a leader, and I was just thinking about this in talking about Coldplay, which is ironic because he got divorced from his wife who was an actress, who we I understand is now doing ads for that company, which is ridiculous. But this happens to rock stars and professional athletes and famous people and CEOs because what happens is they start to believe the lie that they're special, and they deserve special treatment, and that they're wonderful because people people tell them what they wanna hear. They laugh at their jokes louder, and they praise them. And while it's not always fake, it's often exaggerated, and it's easy for any leader to start to believe this stuff. And when they start to believe it and start to think, man, maybe I am this special.

当他们开始认为'也许我真这么重要'时，就会扭曲看待私生活，觉得'我理应获得更多'。这种心态会体现在财富等方面，有时也会导致人际关系上的愚蠢决定。

Maybe I am this important. They then look at their personal life in a different way. It gets skewed, and that's when they begin to think, maybe I deserve more in my life. And that plays out in wealth and all these other things, but it also plays out sometimes in really stupid decisions about personal relationships.

其实我很高兴能用《动机》来锚定这次讨论。书中指出：若你是回报导向型领导者，就会追逐关注、赞美、权力和名声——这些本非领导力的核心，却让人沦陷。如果在职场是回报导向型，回家后大概率也是。就像你在书里说的帕特：如果领导动机不纯就不该要孩子，因为育儿不会给你预期中的'回报'——比如不必做换尿布之类的苦差事。

Well, I I actually love anchoring some of this conversation in the motive, Pat, because I you know, you you write about in that book. If you're a reward centered leader, then you're seeking attention and accolades and power and fame and all of those things that that aren't actually core tenants of leadership that people fall susceptible to because they think this is for me. And if you're a reward centered leader at work, the likelihood that you are a reward centered leader when you pull into the driveway at home is probably a lot higher. So you like, I I think you even said in the book, Pat, that nobody should become a parent if your leadership motive is off because there's there's not a lot of reward in there for you. Other you know, there's plenty of reward in there for you, but not the ways that you think in terms of, like, well, I shouldn't have to, you know, do the hard things or take care of the kids or clean up or change dirty diapers.

所以我认为，如果人们一开始没有审视自己的领导动机，这种想法可能更容易被接受。

So I I think anchoring some of this in the idea that this is maybe more susceptible for people if they haven't checked their leadership motive out of the gate.

是的。你知道吗，Cody，这还让我想到什么？我们可能要稍微哲学甚至神学地探讨一下。人们主要认为这是性方面的罪，但包括淫欲在内，所有罪的核心都是骄傲。

Yes. You know what you know what it reminds me of too, Cody? That we're gonna go a little philosophical and and theological here maybe. But people think this is a sexual sin primarily. But the core of all sin, including lust, is pride.

我认为事情是这样的：人们开始觉得，我应该能够为所欲为。

And I think what happens is people start to think, I should be able to do whatever I want.

没错。

Right.

而且很可能——这个人的生活其他方面可能也有类似情况，比如他开始屈服于‘我理应得到某些东西’的想法。有趣的是，人们看到这种事会想：哦，一个男人出轨被抓了，他活该。但事情远比这复杂，是许多因素共同导致了这一刻。

And probably it's not only there's probably other areas of this guy's life, for instance, that he started to give into around, well, I I deserve certain things. And and and it's interesting because I think people look at this and they think, well, a guy got caught who decided to have sex with a woman that's not his wife, and he got caught. Oh, he's he deserves what he gets. It's way more it's more complex than that, and there's a lot of things that happened along the way that led to this moment.

对。Pat，我也喜欢关于骄傲的讨论，因为你是对的。就像那句谚语说的‘权力导致腐败，绝对权力绝对导致腐败’。领导力中也存在这种心态：‘我理应得到任何降临到我身上的东西’。

Yeah. I I like the pride conversation too, Pat, because you're right. It's like, I deserve you know, there's that that saying, like, ultimate power corrupts or what is absolute power corrupts absolutely. And there's some version of that in leadership that is, hey. I deserve whatever it is that's coming my way.

事实上，我理应主动获取一切，要么因为我觉得自己太重要，要么因为我在领导公司或创造收益方面成就斐然。这种心态加上以奖励为中心的领导方式，就是酿成令人后悔行为的完美配方。

In fact, I deserve to go out of my way to get things, because either I think I'm too self important or that I'm doing these amazing things by leading this company or garnering more revenue, whatever it is. And that right there combined with that reward centered leadership is a is a perfect recipe for engaging in behavior that you're gonna regret.

正是如此。让我们具体看看职场中领导者的遭遇：同事们打扮得比你家人的更精致——因为他们想着‘今天要见CEO，我得留下好印象’；他们更捧场地笑、更频繁地点头微笑、更专注地听你说话。

Exactly. Let's go into some of these very specific things that happen to a leader at work. They go to work, and people there are dressed up nicer than you've dressed up at home. So people actually think about, I'm gonna present myself really nicely because the I'm having a meeting with the CEO today, and I want them to I wanna impress them. And then they laugh at your jokes more, and they they nod, and they smile, and they pay attention to you.

他们感谢更多，给予超出应得的赞美。我不是说这都是谄媚，但你在职场中获得这些的浓度是超标的，很难不逐渐信以为真。然后你推开家门——

They thank you more. They actually compliment you more than is deserved. Now I'm not saying it's all brown nosing, but but the thing is you're gonna get maximum levels of those things at work. And you're gonna be it's gonna be really hard not to be susceptible to believing that it's all real. And then you walk in the door at home.

顺便说，作为空巢老人，我现在多希望回家时孩子们能冲过来。但他们不会说‘欢迎回家’，而是‘我需要代数辅导’或‘Michael打我了’‘马桶溢水了’。我当年就珍惜这些时刻，如今回想更是美好。但若你沉迷职场的虚假光环，回家只会觉得‘这太荒唐了’

And by the way, as a as a as an empty nester now, I think about how much I wish I could go home and have my kids come running to me at the door and go they don't go, welcome home. They're like, I need help with algebra, or Michael hit me, or or, you know, the toilet's overflowing. I look back at that, and I appreciated it then. But I look back and think, those were amazing times. But in the moment, if you buy into all the crap you get at work, the good stuff, you're gonna go home and think, this is ridiculous.

而我妻子不会穿着她最好的职业套装来告诉我我有多么出色。她可能会说，我需要你去接孩子或去商店买东西。我忘了这个。如果你在信仰和婚姻中没有坚实的基础，很容易开始想，我值得比这更好的。

And my wife doesn't come dressed up in her best business suit to tell me what a brilliant person I am. She might say, I need you to run and get this kid or run to the store. I forgot this thing. It is very easy if you're not well grounded in your faith and in your marriage to to start to think like, I deserve more than this.

是的。而且，你知道，帕特，我们可能可以做一整集播客，关于你应该如何考虑你的家庭，投入你的家庭，以及如何在家里成为一个以责任为中心的领导者。但就像你说的，有些季节，比如我有差不多七岁、五岁和三岁的孩子，当我回家时，环境并不总是最整洁、最有序的，这可能会很难。当然，其中也有很多回报。我的孩子们，我还处在他们昨天基本上在我进门时都扑向我的阶段。

Yeah. And, you know, Pat, we could probably do a whole episode, a podcast episode about, like, how you should think about your family and pour into your family and think about the being a a responsibility centered leader at at home. And but there are seasons where, like you said, it's you know, I I have a I have a almost seven, five, and three year old, and it's not always, you know, the most cleanly, well presented environment when I get home, and that can be hard. Now there's so much rewarding about it. And my kids, I'm still in the stage where just yesterday, they all basically tackled me when I came in the door.

所以我们可以有一整个对话，关于投入时间、关注和精力到你的家庭中，可能可以大大减少你在工作中的任何可能的诱惑。但就像你说的，帕特，工作中确实存在一种情况，人们都在展示他们最好的一面，你至少得到的是你周围很多同事的最佳表现。

So there's a whole conversation we could have about how investing in, giving time and attention to, and and and the the energy you put into your family can probably do a lot to dissuade you of any any possible temptation at work. But like you said, Pat, there's there is a real situation at work where people are putting on their best, and you're getting the best of, you know, the best presentation at least of a lot of the people that are surrounded as your peers.

你知道，我要在这里深入一点，因为你刚才描述的那个。我实际上在想，科迪，是不是更多的人在孩子长大后不会出轨，因为我认为这源于内心的创伤。我的意思是，人们不想这么说。就像，那家伙是个混蛋，仅此而已。嗯，每个人都有成为混蛋的潜力，我们都有创伤。

You know, I'm gonna go into a nuance there because you were just describing that. I actually wonder, Cody, if more people don't cheat as their kids get older and they because I think this is rooted in wounds. I mean, people don't wanna say that. It's like, well, that guy's a dirtbag, and that's all. Well, everybody has the potential to be a dirtbag, and we have wounds.

而且我认为，当你的孩子长大后，他们不一定会给你那么多的爱，如果你的妻子或丈夫四处奔波，我们都很忙，你实际上会开始，甚至没有意识到，想，伙计，我什么都没有得到。我认为你开始想要——你可能在那时会迷失。因为我不认为当人们有小孩时，他们甚至更少会想到这个。但也许当他们的孩子不再那么经常跑过来迎接他们时，他们会开始想，嘿，这对我有什么好处？我知道这很荒谬，但这是人性。

And I think that when your kids get older and they don't necessarily provide you with the affection, and if your wife is running around or your husband and we're all so busy, you start to actually, even without realizing it, think, man, nothing's coming my way. And I think that you start to want you can you can probably wander when that happens. And because I don't think when people have little kids, I gotta think that they're even less likely to think about this. But maybe when their kids are gone more or less likely to run and greet them at the door, they start to think like, gee, what's in this for me? Which is ridiculous, I know, but it's human.

是的。这很有趣。我想知道数据会证明什么，关于人们更容易表现出那种行为的时候。我会说，这涉及到这个对话的另一层面，如果你开始感到想要远离家，比如孩子们在你进门时跑向你是一种多么美好的感觉。如果那一刻感觉出差并在外过夜比和家人在一起更让人放松，那可能是一个信号，你应该检查一下你的内心和生活发生了什么。

Yeah. That's interesting. I I wonder what the data would would prove out in terms of, like, when people are are more, you know, prone to that type of behavior. I will, you know, I will say this, and it speaks to a whole another layer of this conversation where if you're if you start to feel a desire to be away from home, like like, running your kids running to you when you walk in the door is such a beautiful feeling. If the moment that it feels like going on a business trip is is going to be and spending a night away is gonna be more relieving than it is to be home with the family, that's maybe an indicator that you should check what's going on in your heart and in your life.

是的。这并不是说每个听这个的人都可以说，嘿，有时候上飞机是最好的事情，因为我没有家务要做，我不能。而且，嘿，我必须离开一两天，是的，我要利用这个机会早点睡觉等等。

Yeah. And there that's not to say that everybody listening to this can be like, hey. Sometimes getting on that airplane is the best thing ever because I don't have any chores to do and I can't. And, hey. I have to be away for a day or two and, yeah, I'm gonna take advantage of that and and go to bed a little earlier and all that.

但当你更喜欢别人的陪伴，尤其是比起家里的人时，那就是一个很大的警示信号。你知道吗，科迪？我有一份我认识的出轨的人的名单，在这个案例中，都是对他们的妻子。他们每个人都有较大的孩子。

But it's when you prefer the company of others, especially it's the company of others to the people at home. That's a great red flag. You know something, Cody? I have a list of the people I know that cheated on their spouses, and in this case, it was all on their wives. Every one of them had kids that were older.

我刚想到这个。他们的孩子都在十几岁。不是说青少年很难相处。等着看吧，科迪。这是一个不同的世界，但我认为在那段时间里可能会感到更加孤独。

I just thought about that. Their kids were in their teens. Not that teenagers are difficult. Wait till that happens, Cody. It's a different world, but I think there's something about probably feeling even lonelier during that time.

但我离题了。让我们谈谈

But I digress. Let's talk

关于那份文件，等播客结束后再处理，帕特。

about that paper away after this podcast, Pat.

是啊。你知道吗？即使在纸上，我也只写了缩写。

Yeah. I you know something? Even on the paper, I wrote initials.

好吧。

Okay.

我也不知道为什么，就是不想把名字写全。挺奇怪的。不过咱们聊聊预防措施吧。我常说的一点是：要在工作场合对下属大声说出来——你的家庭和婚姻比工作更重要。

And I don't know why, but I just didn't wanna write the names down. That's weird. But let's talk about things you can do to prevent this. One of the things I say is this, say out loud at work to the people that work for you. Your family and your marriage is more important than your job.

要大声说出来并经常强调，别憋着。因为说得越多，就越能提醒自己和他人。当有人开始出现失衡苗头时，同事们就会提醒：'嘿，你是不是花太多时间工作而忽略了家庭？'这可能正是阻止你迈出错误第一步的关键。

Say it out loud and say it regularly, and don't hold that back. Because the more you say it out loud, the more you're gonna remind yourself and others, and people are going to remind if they see somebody start to slide a little bit, they're gonna go, hey. Hey. Are you are you spending more time here working on this instead of being at home? And they might be the thing that catches you from taking that first bad step.

没错。我甚至想更进一步说，帕特，你的行动必须与言论一致。明白吗？

Yeah. No. I'll even go a little bit further, Pat, and say, yeah. Your actions have to back up what you say. You know?

昨晚我刚读到一句话——完全不是为这次谈话准备的，好像是Instagram推送的。记不清作者了，可能是《财富五层级》之类的书。他在家庭章节里说：'二十年后，唯一记得你加班的人只有你的孩子。'

I read a I read a quote literally last night, not in preparation for this at all. It just came across my Instagram, I think it was. But and I and I think it was a I can't remember the author, but I think the book was the five the five levels of wealth or something like that. But he's talking in a chapter about the family. He says, in twenty years from now, the only peep the only people who will remember that you worked late are your kids.

我当时就想：天啊，这太真实了。即使你嘴上说家庭更重要，但二十年后记得你熬夜加班的，只会是被你留在家里的亲人，而不是那些感激你出席的同事。

And I was like, oh, man. That is just that is such a real reality to say, like, hey. Those those extra hours you're putting in a home, even if you say your family's more important, the only people they're gonna remember in twenty years are the ones that you left home, not the ones at work that were thankful that you were there.

千真万确。我们开始前还争论过——甚至可以说是争吵——关于这期播客的必要性：'真有人需要听这个吗？'后来发现可能比想象中更多。就像我们年轻时听到的警告，正是那些话帮我们避免了错误。

Totally true. And and that's we we got in a little bit of a debate before we started this, even an argument, if you will, about about this podcast and, do people need to hear this? And we were like, well, what percentage of people would even be susceptible to this? And we're like, it's probably more than you think. And we thought, well, we probably heard these warnings when we were younger, and that helped us get to the point where we avoided those things.

就像你刚才说的，人们会恍然大悟——即使以前听过。临终时没人会说'真该多加点班'。当然我知道有人会恐慌：'天啊我是不是该辞职'。

Like, just saying what you just said, it's like people will hear that even if they've heard it before and they're gonna go, oh, crap. And people will say, when you're on your deathbed, you're not gonna say, I wish I had worked more hours. You know? Now I know there's horrible guilt that people feel like, oh, no. I should quit my job.

不。你需要养家糊口，还有其他事情要做，但这确实是个很好的提醒。我要告诉人们的第二件事是：大声对你共事的人、配偶和其他人说，我在工作中获得的赞美和肯定至少部分是虚假或夸大的。

No. You you need to provide for your family, and you need other things to do, but it's a great it's a great reminder. And here's the second thing that I tell people to do. Say out loud to the people you work with and to your spouse and to others. The adulation and affirmation I get at work is at least partially artificial or exaggerated.

我知道不该全盘接受，因为存在结构性或情境性因素使其更加夸张。如果你不这么想，就可能开始相信这些都是真实的。尤其现在——这话可能有点疯狂——我认识的许多CEO在成长过程中并非风云人物。他们实际上更刻苦学习、更努力工作，甚至可能不太社交。

And I know I shouldn't buy into it because there are structural or or contextual things that make it more more exaggerated. Because if you don't think that, you you can start to believe that it's all real. And especially now, this is what I'm gonna say is kinda crazy. So many CEOs I know were not cool kids growing up. They actually studied harder, worked harder, might not have even been very social.

当他们成为领导者后，突然人们开始关注他们，觉得他们很酷——这是以前没有的。这容易让人迷失。我认识一个人，他离开了贤惠的妻子和孩子，我简直难以置信。这让我震惊。我记得当时在想：他这辈子从没酷过，现在公司里所有女性都在夸他多优秀。他可能觉得'妻子很久没这样赞美我了，也没像这些人一样和我调情'，最后大概得出'年轻时没得到的现在终于有了'的结论。

They get into a position of leadership, and suddenly people are paying attention to them and thinking they're pretty cool that they didn't before, and they're liable to go, I mean, I I I know a guy that left his wonderful wife and there's kids, and I couldn't believe it. It shocked me. And I remember thinking, he has never been cool in his life, and now all these women at work are telling him how wonderful he is. And he probably thought, my wife hasn't told me that in a long time, and she hasn't she hasn't flirt with me like these people do. And I think he just probably said, well, I guess I never got girls when I was young.

这就是付诸行动的时机。说实话，有些人就是如此单纯，等事后回顾时才惊觉'到底发生了什么？'

This is the time to do it. I I honestly think there's people that are that simple about it, and then they look back and they go, what the hell happened?

我觉得你把这些看似显而易见的道理讲得如此实用很精彩，比如'不要那样做'和'说这些话'。关键在于，你不会突然出现在接吻镜头里，这不是第一步。而是那些不该发送/接收的短信、不该接听的电话、不该进行的会后谈话，所有这些才导致你陷入那种境地。我很欣赏这点——

Well, and I think I think what I enjoy about how practical you're sort of making some of these that seem maybe even obvious, like, hey. Don't don't do that and say these things, is that, like, so so much of this is you don't just wind up on a kiss cam. It's not like step one kiss cam. It's that there are these there's a text message you shouldn't have sent or or received or a phone call you shouldn't have picked up or an email or after meeting conversation that you shouldn't have had. That all just led to you being in a situation that so and I like this.

我们应该尽早拦截这些通向'接吻镜头'的垫脚石，因为不知不觉中你就会深陷其中。

Like, let's catch it as early as possible and the step stepping stones that lead to the KISS CAM because before you know it, you're way too far down that path.

我讨厌人们说'他们太蠢了，要是站着不动就不会被抓'。网上甚至有人说'他们该像其他人一样去汽车旅馆，干嘛在公共场合？'但问题在于——被抓包不应该是他们后悔的重点。

And what I hated when people said, they were so stupid. If they'd just stood there, they wouldn't have got caught. And I even saw things online like, they should have just gone to a motel like everybody else. What are they doing out in public? And it's like, getting caught is not what they should be feeling bad about.

或许他们该后悔的是让家人更蒙羞的方式。但正如我们之前讨论的，被抓其实是种恩赐。

Maybe getting caught in a way that embarrassed their families even more, But as you and I were talking before, getting caught was a blessing.

这可能是发生在他们身上最好的事。Pat，我跟你说过：要预防这类事情，可以想象自己出现在接吻镜头里，想象你的家人坐在酷玩演唱会第一排。如果你正在做的事最终会伤害家人、带来绝望，那就想象你的行为被所有人看见——不仅在演唱会，还在社交媒体上。

It could it could be the best thing that happens to them. And I I shared this with you, Pat. It's like, I think that one of the ways if we're talking about how do you prevent any anything leading to something like this is, like, imagine you on a kiss cam. Imagine your family in the front row of a Coldplay concert. Like, if if the behavior that you're exhibiting or the the path that you're on is going to lead to hurt and despair and just, like, crush your family, imagine whatever you're doing up for everybody to see, not only at a concert, but on social media.

如果这还不足以让你警醒、纠正行为，真正回归完整人格并投资家庭，那恐怕再难找到其他机制能引导你做正确的事了。

And if that's not enough to help you get scared of and and correct behavior and really run towards, like, being a whole person and investing in your family, then it'd be hard pressed to find another another, mechanism to get you to do the right thing.

没错。这应该能吓退那些心怀不轨之人。其他目睹此事的人也是——或许有人正打算开始这样的关系，或许有人正处于类似关系中，他们会因此止步。我祈祷所有听众都能为那个男人、那位HR女士以及他们的家人祷告，愿上帝恩典让他们找到和解之路。

Right. That should frighten the hell. And and other people seeing this happen. Maybe there's people that were about to start this, or maybe people there are people that are in a relationship like this, and they're gonna stop. And I hope everybody listening to this will pray both for that guy and the woman, the the HR lady, that their families might, by the grace of god, find a way to reconcile.

谁知道呢？我为此祈祷。但我们也该为其他可能受诱惑或正在做这种事的人祷告，愿他们能停止、挽回并悔改。因为这并非趣事，而是悲剧。

Who knows? I pray for that. But let's also pray for anybody else out there that's tempted to do this or is doing it that they might stop it and recover and repent. Because this is not just a funny thing. This is a tragic thing.

有时我觉得其中的幽默感会严重冲淡本应汲取的教训。科迪，我们聊过另一个重点：与配偶共同参与项目，这样你才能透过他们的才华重新认识他们。很多时候我们的共同工作只是跑腿、家务和照顾孩子——这些都很好。但如果你没机会看到他们展现天赋的一面，那很可惜，因为你的配偶和同事一样拥有才华，只是你未曾亲眼见证。

And sometimes I think the humor around it can really, really dampen the lesson that needs to be learned. Here's another thing, Cody, that you and I have talked about. Engage in joint projects with your spouse so that you get to see him or her in light of their talents. Sometimes all of the joint work we do is just errands and chores and and and helping the kids, which is all wonderful. But if you're not doing something where you get to see them in their genius because the the truth is your spouse has geniuses just like your colleagues, but you've you've not had a chance to actually witness them in that.

想办法和他们共同完成一个项目，让你见识他们有多出色，而不是只看到他们生活中某个局限的侧面。

Take find a way to engage in a project with them where you get to see how wonderful they are, and you you're not just seeing them as somebody who's limited to one facet of their lives.

说得太对了，帕特。我特别认同这点。就像在工作中我们会设定一个宏伟的阶段性目标——不是要过度规划家庭生活——但我们在职场常谈的主题目标，那种未来6到9个月要实现的远大目标，却很少应用在家庭中。结果就像企业一样，最终只会陷入日常运营事务。

Yeah, Pat. I I love this one. I I think, like, working on a big project that is, you know not to make this overly prescriptive like a like a meetings conversation that we're having, but when we often talk about having a thematic goal at work, which is this, like, big audacious goal that we're trying to accomplish in the next six to nine months. We so rarely do this with our families. And as a result, what happens is just like in business, you just end up doing the standard operating objectives.

而在家里，日常运营就是打扫卫生、哄孩子睡觉、做家务、洗衣服这些。缺乏共同愿景时，你们构建的就只是日常事务而非更宏大的东西。我和林赛的婚姻中深有体会——当我们定期检视共同制定的远大目标并为之努力时，整个状态完全不同于只关注家庭日常事务的时候。

And at home, the standard operating objectives are cleanliness and the kids' bedtime and chores and laundry and all this stuff. And there's no shared vision, and you're building something bigger than just the standard operating objectives. And I found this in my own marriage, Pat. Like, when Lindsay and I have a thematic goal that we're checking in on regularly, that we're trying to, like, move towards this big aspirational thing that we've cocreated together, we are just in a totally different spot than when we're just focused on the the standard operating objectives of our home.

知道最有趣的是什么吗？我妻子很有才华，曾是培训顾问，热爱这类工作。后来我们有了四个男孩，她大多时间在家。她说想重返职场但暂时不行。记得她开始带领圣经研习班时，我白天会去教堂——她为女性开设了'与目标同行'课程——

You know what's so funny, Cody? So my wife is very talented and and and was a trainer in consulting, and she loves the kind of work we do. And then we had four boys, and she was home on most of the time. And and she was like, I wanna go back to work, but I I can't yet. And and I remember when she started teaching this bible study, and I would stop by church during the day where her she had this bible study for women called walking with purpose.

我去看她教导那些女性学员，与她们互动的样子，感到无比自豪。就像重新认识了久违的她。不是说之前不尊重她，而是那时我才完整地欣赏到她。我珍视这样的机会。我们需要这些时刻，才不会忘记配偶有多美好，不会仅仅因同事出现在不同场合就产生不切实际的幻想。

And I would go in to see her, and I would see her with all these women, and she was teaching them, and she was we're interacting with them, and I would be so proud of her. I it was like I was seeing this woman that I hadn't seen in so long. And it's not to say that, oh, I had no respect for her, but I got to appreciate her fully. And it was like, I loved that I got to do that. And we need to do those things so that we don't forget how wonderful our spouses are and and start idealizing the people that go to work just because they show up in a different in a different setting.

我认为人类天生渴望成就。我们常说要为世界做贡献，要共同追逐远大梦想。生活本就是团队运动——

And I think we're you know, as human beings, we're wired to accomplish things. Like, we talk about this all the time. We want to contribute to the world. We want to, like, dream up big dreams and then go after them together. And we're you know, we've often said that life is a team sport.

我们无法独自完成。职场中我们常有共同愿景和协作目标，却很少这样经营家庭生活。而当你这样做时，一切都会改变。帕特，就像你正要举起的这本书——我太喜欢这个观点了。

We don't do it on our own. And so we I think there is a trap in the corporate or work environment where you're like, oh, we have a shared vision and a goal, and we're all collaborating towards this goal. And we don't often treat our home life the same way, and it is a total game changer when you do. And I love I think your book, Pat oh, you're about to hold it up. I love this.

我有

I had

为了那几十位在YouTube而非音频平台上观看的观众，我把它放在桌上。我多年前写过一本叫《 frantic家庭的三个大问题》的书。如果你想了解我的家庭，这算是我最接近自传的作品，因为劳拉和我亲身经历过。封面照片是我们的旧房子，那辆模糊驶过的面包车是朋友的。我们写了本关于如何像经营企业一样管理家庭的书，但核心其实是视配偶为家庭的共同领导者——因为这是你运营的最重要组织。

it on my desk for the two dozen people that watch this on YouTube rather than on on that listen to our audio. I have a book that I wrote years ago called the three big questions for a frantic family. And if you wanna know something about my family, you this was the closest thing to autobiographical that I did because Laura and I lived this. And even the picture on the front is our old house, and the the minivan that's blurring by is our friend's minivan. And we wrote a book about how to run your family more like a business, but it's it's really not just it's about seeing your spouse as your co leader of the family because that's the most important organization you run.

想想真是荒谬——你的配偶可能比任何人都更投入孩子和家庭生活，这比任何工作成就都重要。而贬低这点，反而认为HR或其他职场角色更值得钦佩，简直疯狂。这完全本末倒置了。

And it's just so crazy when we think, like, that your spouse might be even more invested in your children or your home life. That's more important than anything anybody's doing at work. And to actually devalue that and start to think that these other people who run HR or something else, it's more admirable, is just insane. It's completely upside down.

是啊。帕特，我特别认同你说的'最重要组织'。说实话，聊了这么多，我甚至不确定Astronomer是做什么的，大概是家人工智能科技公司吧？

Yeah. And I love I love what you said, Pat. It's the most important organization. And I don't even know after all of this, Pat, I'm not even sure what Astronomer does. I think it's like a AI tech company.

有趣的是，我们在职场会精心开会、制定愿景、协作推进，却很少这样经营家庭。你那本《 frantic家庭》最打动我的，不是具体方法，而是...

But what's so funny is that we will have great meetings. We will have a vision. We will work towards that vision. We think about it together at work. And what I love about your book, Frantic Family, is it when you say it's about how to run your family like a business, it's actually not the tactics of it.

是宏观视角——如何像规划企业那样，有意识地构建理想生活。

It's the it's the big picture part of it. Like, how do we build the life that we want and be as intentional about it as we are in our companies?

没错。告诉你，我儿子现在是大一学生，马上大二了，今天他来办公室...

Exactly. I wanna tell you something. My son is is a freshman. He's gonna be a sophomore in college. He's here today at the office.

虽然我演讲、写书、开发'工作天才'项目，热爱所有工作...

And and I give speeches. I write books. We we have the working genius. I love it all. I love the work I do.

但儿子出现在这里，就是我今年最幸福的时刻。因为家庭更重要。他正在向我的同事们学习业务，自己都没意识到——现在他听到了——这比我获得任何掌声、写任何书或书评都珍贵。

Him being here is the highlight of my year. Because my family is more important. I love my son. And the fact that he's, like, learning our business from my friends here at work and just having I'm like, he doesn't realize this. He's gonna hear it now.

科迪，还有一点很重要：要把家庭生活带入职场。因为...

But that is way bigger to me than any applause I could get in a speech or any book I could write or any review somebody would write. And and I think that if you're listening to this and you've lost sight of that, I think it's really good to go, oh, yeah. Let's get back to that. Let's get back to that. Here's another thing, Cody, I think is I think it's really important to bring your home life to work for this reason.

所以我一生都与他人同行，无论是女性还是男性，为了演讲之类的事情。他们都是我妻子的朋友，而我和他们的配偶也是朋友。当我们一起旅行时，我们会谈论我们的家庭和妻子。当我们属于同一个社交圈时，我们甚至产生亲密关系的可能性要小得多。但那些去工作并拥有完全独立生活的人，这些是匿名的人群。

So I've traveled with people my whole life, women and guys for speeches and stuff like that. They are all friends of my wife, and I am friends with their spouses. When we're traveling together, we talk about our families and our wives. The chances that we would even drift into intimacy are so much less when we're part of the same ecosystem. But people that go to work and they have a completely separate life, it's these anonymous people.

我并不是说这应该是阻止你对配偶不忠的唯一理由。那显然太荒谬了。但所有能让你意识到的事情——我首先是一个丈夫和父亲，或者一个妻子和母亲，而且工作中的每个人都知道这一点——这只会让你不太可能美化工作中的关系。这说得通吗？

And I'm not saying that should be the one thing that keeps you from cheating on your spouse. That would be so patently ridiculous. But everything that allows you to realize, I am first and foremost a husband and a father or a a wife and a mother and that everybody else at work knows that about me, it just makes it less likely that you're gonna glamorize your relationships at work. Does that make sense?

完全同意。帕特，我甚至不认为这是过度简化。我认为我们在这个播客中所做的一部分就是说，嘿。你去工作时是一个独立的人，回家时又是另一个独立的人，你把这两个世界分开。就像，甚至有一部很受欢迎的电视剧叫《离职》，他们在神经层面上做到了这一点。

Totally. I actually don't even think that's oversimplifying it at all, Pat. I think I think part of what we do in this whole podcast is to say, hey. This idea that you're you go to work and you're a separate person and you come home and you're a separate person and you're separating those worlds. Like, there's even that TV popular TV show called Severance where they do this at, like, a like, a neurological level level.

我认为你完全正确。我们经常谈论的就是，你是一个完整的人。就像有时候你会把家里的情绪带到工作中，也会把工作带回家。你越是整合这些生活，它们就越不会感觉分离。你不会被诱惑去相信你能从完全分离的地方获得某些东西，或者从另一个地方无法获得。

I think that you're absolutely right. This is what we constantly talk about is, like, you're a whole person. In the same way sometimes you bring, you know, stuff you're going through at at home to work, you're bringing work back to home. And the more you integrate those lives, they don't feel separate. You don't you don't you're not tempted to believe that there are you're getting things from places that you that that are completely separate or you can't get from the other place.

所以我认为这里面有很多智慧。

So I think that there's a lot of wisdom in that.

是的。我认为有一种危险，当我与一些人交谈时，他们会说，我甚至不知道我的配偶在做什么。我不理解他们的工作。我想你最好了解一下。即使你觉得不有趣，也要给自己一些可以谈论的话题，这样你可以分享那种经历，而不是让它变得分离。

Yeah. I think there's a danger when I've talked to people and they go, I don't even know what my spouse does. I don't get their work. It's like, I think you better learn. Even if you don't think it's interesting, give give yourself something you can talk about so you can share in that experience and not make it separate.

好的。好的。我们需要尽快结束这个话题。但科迪，我们真正想表达的重点是什么？

Okay. Okay. We need to wrap this up pretty soon. But what's the real what's the real point we wanna make here, Cody?

嗯，帕特，我认为在我们所有的讨论中，我们在领导力中所做的一切，无论你是一个奖励中心，我们谈论的所有事情，如果你在寻找某些让你感到不满足的东西，就像我们在这个播客中讨论过的伤口，那是什么，我们如何成为一个更完整的人？但如果你在领导岗位上，很多人会说，那个人是CEO，他可能赚了很多钱，他很英俊，他有妻子和孩子。

Well, I I think, Pat, in all of our discussions is everything that we do in leadership, whether you're a reward center, that all the things that we talked about, if you're searching for something that you're feels like you're unsatisfied by like, we've had conversations on this podcast about wounds and what what is what is that about, and how do we become more of a whole person? But if you're, like, in leadership like, there's so many people that would say, that guy's a CEO. He's probably making good money. He's handsome. He's got a wife and kids.

他还能想要什么？如果你内心深处仍然在寻找超越这一切的东西，那么真的只有一个答案，而你无法在与耶稣的关系之外找到它。

Like, what else could he want? And if there's still a part of you that is searching for something beyond all of that, there really is only one answer, and then you're not gonna find it outside of a relationship with Jesus.

是的。我相信这一点，因为我们首先是上帝的孩子，这就足够了。科迪，你让我想起了两句话，里面都有‘足够’这个词。我不够，这还不够。

Yeah. That's I'm I believe that because you we are first and foremost a child of God, and that's enough. And, you know, Cody, what you reminded me of is these two sayings with the word enough in it. I'm not enough, and it's not enough.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果我觉得自己不够好，就会觉得自己必须做得更多。让我告诉你，当你成为财务副总裁时，你会想：不，我需要当CEO。然后你当上CEO，又会想：我需要当更大公司的CEO。

And if I feel like I'm not enough, then I feel like I have to perform more. And and let me tell you, you become the vice president of finance, and you're like, no. But I need to be the CEO. And then you're the CEO. You're like, I need to be the CEO of a bigger company.

我们要上市。永远都不够。如果你做事时总觉得不够，你肯定会开始做些蠢事，以为这能让你快乐。说实话，我不了解那位CEO的故事，但也许他真以为这能让他快乐，这太可悲了。

We need to go public. It's never enough. And if you're doing things and you feel like it's never enough, you're bound to start doing really dumb things thinking that maybe this will make you happy. And you know something? I don't know the story of that CEO, but maybe he thought this was actually gonna make him happy, and that's just so sad.

我知道。所以如果你觉得自己不够好，觉得生活中得到的一切都不够，就去解决这个问题。寻求帮助。找牧师、神职人员或心理咨询师谈谈。我想说的就这些。哦，结束前我们还要说：请订阅、点赞，你们年轻人现在都这么做，好让更多人听到这些内容。

I know. So just if you feel like you're not enough and you feel like whatever you're getting in life is not enough, go address that. Find help for that. Talk to a a priest or a minister or a counselor, and, and I think that's I think that's it. Oh, we wanna also fit before we finish here, we need to say, please, subscribe, punch the like button, whatever you do, whatever you kids do out there, you know, so that it it so more people can hear about these things.

如果你认识可能从这期节目中受益的人，请转发给他们。我们认为这是好事。对，就这样。对吧，科迪？

And if you know of anybody that could benefit from this episode, please forward it on to them. We think that's a good thing. Yeah. That's it. Right, Cody?

我想说的就这些。

I think that's it.

我特别认同你说的——如果你觉得自己不够好或拥有的不够，只有一个地方能找到答案。如果人们能参与其中并找到平静与完整，那就太棒了。

I I love just like you said, if you don't feel like enough or there isn't enough out there for you, there's only one spot to find that. And so to the extent that people can engage in that and find peace and wholeness, that would be amazing.

是的。就像我们每次结尾说的，尤其是今天，我们要说：愿上帝保佑你们。感谢收听，下次再见。

Yes. And so we as we always say at the end, but especially today, we're gonna say, God bless you. Thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you next time.