249. 饥饿胜出

‘慢招聘’意味着寻找那些真正渴望出色完成工作、具备强烈职业道德的人，而不是那些想向所有人证明自己愿意完全牺牲个人生活的员工。欢迎收听《桌边谈话》，这是一档聚焦文化、团队协作、领导力与组织健康交汇点的播客。我是主持人帕特·兰乔内。这是我的搭档科迪·汤普森。最近怎么样，科迪？

Hire slow means find people that really want to do a great job, you know, and that really have a strong work ethic, but not that want to prove to everybody else that they're willing to sacrifice their personal life completely. Welcome to At the Table, the podcast that lives at the intersection between culture, teamwork, leadership, and organizational health. I'm your host, Pat Lancione. This is my cohost, Cody Thompson. How are doing, Cody?

我很好，帕特。对这次对话很期待。

I am doing swell, Pat. Excited for this conversation.

我也是。这已经是我们第四次尝试录制了，因为我们总出错。

Me too. And it's the fourth time we're trying to record it because we keep messing up.

第四次会成功的。

Fourth time's a charm.

今天的话题是什么，科迪？

What's the topic, Cody?

我们要讨论‘饥饿感制胜法’。

We're gonna talk about hunger wins.

没错。这是我在客户交流、阅读材料以及与全球各地人士交谈时注意到的新趋势——人们开始重新强调竞争力。所有人都在讨论‘我们需要更具竞争力’。我不确定这是源于关税谈判和各国贸易往来，还是因为漫长的企业疫情后遗症终于消退，大家觉得‘好了，所有人都回归工作了’。

That's right. And this is something that I've been noticing in my conversation with clients and reading I'm doing and talking to various people around the world. There's a new emphasis on competitiveness. Everybody is talking about we need to get more competitive. And I don't know if that's because of all the tariff discussions and all these countries trying to do business business with one another or if it's because long corporate COVID has finally worn off and people are like, okay, everybody's back at work.

‘我们必须找到提升竞争力的方法’。无论原因如何，这个话题正在全球各地被热议——美国不同地区、欧洲...我接触的许多人都在问‘如何增强竞争力？’但太多人将工作时长等同于竞争力和饥饿感的代名词，我认为这是错误的。

We gotta figure out how to be more competitive. Whatever the reason, people are talking about this across the the world, in different parts of the country, in different in Europe, I've been talking to a lot of people, how do we get more competitive? And too often, they're talking about work hours as a surrogate for competitiveness and hunger. And I just don't think that's right.

是啊。帕特，我特别欣赏你这种商业洞察方式——倾听领导者们的对话，然后发现他们提出的解决方案往往与我们自身的商业哲学背道而驰。我们经常讨论效率与效能的区别，探讨什么是饥饿感，工作时长与产出效率的关系。这种基于我们工作观的思想交锋总是令人振奋。

Yeah. I I love when you do this, Pat, where you're sort of surveying the business landscape. You're hearing conversations from leaders, and then what they're saying and the solutions that they think they're they're going to kind of entertain are kind of antithetical to the way like, even our own philosophy about business. You know, so often we're talking about efficiency versus effectiveness and and what what is hunger and what do work hours have to do with production and productivity. And and so I love when we have these sort of, you know, philosophical arguments around this, and we get to be grounded in sort of our way of looking at the world of work.

所以我已经迫不及待要深入探讨了。

And so I'm I'm excited to dive in.

你知道吗，科迪，事情是这样的：欧洲一位风险投资家最近写了篇文章，他说除非欧洲初创企业圈采用和中国及加州硅谷相同的工作伦理，否则永远无法竞争。他提到中国有种'996模式'，即每周工作六天，早9点到晚9点。算下来就是72小时。我觉得这太荒谬了——我毕业后第一份工作在管理咨询公司，就经历过这种工时。

You know, Cody, how this came about as a guy in Europe, a venture capitalist, wrote an article recently, and he said that until Europe's startup community adopts the same work ethic as China and the Silicon Valley in in California, that they're never gonna be able to compete. And what he did is he said, like, in China, they have this thing called the nine nine six model, which is you work from 9AM to 9PM six days a week. And in case you don't wanna do the math, that's seventy two hours. And and I think that is so ridiculous because and I worked those hours. My first job out of college was with a management consulting firm, and they just worked us to death.

根据亲身经历，我可以断言这根本不是衡量工作热情的好标准。到最后我们只剩抱怨，还试图通过假装更努力工作来钻制度空子。大量时间都耗在办公室做无意义的事。所以我想探讨什么是真正的竞争力，以及如何打造一支不用加班时长证明自己，而是真正具备主人翁精神和激情的团队。科迪，在继续之前我要声明：我绝不是那种主张'不该鞭策员工'的温和派。

And I can say by from firsthand experience, that was not a good indicator of hunger. We were we got to the point where it just became something to complain about, and we tried to game the system by making it look like we worked harder. And we spent a lot of hours just at work doing nonproductive things. And so I want to talk about what real competitiveness work looks like and how to create a workforce of hungry people that aren't trying to prove it by the number of hours they spend in the office, but that it's actually about ownership and passion. And and Cody, before we go further, I just wanna say I'm certainly not one of those people though that's an advocate for like, oh, we shouldn't push people.

我完全不信什么工作生活平衡那套软理论。疫情期间有人说居家办公效率不变，我直接揭穿这是胡扯。除非你只是不想通勤和每天穿裤子，否则多数人居家办公——包括我自己试过的那段时间——根本形成不了竞争氛围。

We it's all about work life balance in kind of a soft way. I don't believe in that at all. And when people after COVID said we were just as productive when we worked at home, I called BS on that. I think you were more productive if you didn't want to commute and put on pants every day. But generally speaking, people working from home, and I was one of them for a while, that was not really a competitive landscape.

所以让我们聊聊如何在不搞奴隶式压榨的前提下，打造真正具有竞争力的狼性团队。

And so let's talk about how to make a competitive hungry workforce without without doing things that are ridiculously slavish in terms of how we treat our employees.

没错。帕特，我很喜欢你用的两个词：竞争力和饥饿感。它们的实质是什么？当你能塑造这样的文化时，究竟意味着什么？

Yeah. I like the words the two words, Pat. The competitive and hunger. And what do we mean by those? And what is it actually when you can create a culture that's like that.

这就像倒推你认为能增强竞争力的因素——更多工时对吗？这真能解决问题吗？有位客户CEO说过：'就算你在三年级待十年，也不代表你擅长三年级课程'。

You know, it's sort of like sort of backing your way into what you think will make you competitive is like more work hours. Right? Does that is that really gonna be the thing? I heard one CEO that was a client of ours say, hey. If you spend ten years in the third grade, it doesn't mean you're good at the third grade.

更多工作时间未必是解决方案。如果竞争力是关键，增加工时真是你该拉的杠杆吗？我认为这完全违背了我们激发饥饿感的初衷。

You know? And and so it's like more time at work is not necessarily the solution here. What is it a way that what is how do we think about this? If if competitive workforce is the key, is more hours the lever for you to pull to try to get there? And I think it's pretty antithetical to what we think in terms of pushing people around hunger.

讽刺的是，这反而是种懒惰的管理方式——'干脆让人多干活吧'。其实需要更精细的方法。先说清楚：我并非否定那些偶尔需要加班的热血奋斗者。

And ironically, it's it's a lazy way to do it. It's like, oh, let's just make people work more hours. It's there's a lot more nuance in this. Now let me just be clear. I'm not saying that people that that are competitive and work hard and have passion aren't gonna work long hours sometimes.

当客户急需或特殊状况时，连续熬夜在所难免。但把这变成常态的公司只会耗尽员工。更讽刺的是，人们会停止思考如何高效工作，反正横竖要熬80小时。

There's gonna be moments in their in their lives when when customers need something or or there's something going on when you've got to pull a lot of really late nights. That's just part of answering the call. But that's not that should not be the regular thing. And companies that turn that into the regular thing actually just burn people out. And and it's interesting because people stop working smarter and they stop trying to figure things out and they just figure, well, I'm gonna be here for the next eighty hours anyway.

他们会想'慢慢混时间呗'。我很欣慰世界终于觉醒。全球各地人们开始拒绝懈怠有其深层原因，值得深入探讨。多年在欧洲工作时，我发现既难让员工加班，也难招到混日子的人。

I'll just I'll just kinda keep plugging along. So the thing I wanna say is I'm really glad that the world has woken up to this. I think it's really good that people in different parts of the world are saying we don't want to slack anymore. And there's reasons why they're doing that, and I think it's worth putting those out there. For years I worked, I did a lot of work in Europe, and it was impossible to get people to work longer, and it was impossible to hire slackers.

我从当地企业主那里了解到这些情况。他们说，如果想解雇某人，得花六个月时间，还得再付一年工资。如果现在启动流程，还得牵扯政府各部门的人。最后他们干脆表示：算了，我们想办法绕开这些人吧。

And I knew this from the people that ran the businesses there. They're like, yeah, if I want to fire that person, it's going to take six months, and then I'm have to pay him another year. And if I put it in motion now, I'm going to have to get all these different people involved in the government. And they were just like, I don't know. We'll just work around them.

直到今天，澳大利亚仍存在类似现象。我最近和一群澳洲高管交流时听说，他们出台了新法规——「离线权法案」。员工可以要求雇主在工作时间外不得联系他们，这项立法保障了该权利。

And even today, there's still some of this stuff going on in Australia. I was recently speaking to a bunch of executives in Australia and they told me something about they have these new laws. They're called the right to disconnect law. And that is an employee can go to work and say, I don't want you to contact me outside of work hours. And there's legislation that gives them that right.

我认为澳大利亚应该设立「企业离线解雇权」，让公司能解雇那些签署离线协议的员工。这种政府需要保护员工免受无良企业压制的想法太荒谬了。在煤矿或某些国家的工厂或许有必要，但多数情况下，苛待员工的企业终将失去人才。

And I think Australia should create a right to disconnect for the companies to get rid of people who sign that who sign up for that. Because this is just ridiculous. This idea that the government needs to protect employees from these horrible companies that are gonna treat them terribly. I mean, in a coal mine or in a factory in in certain countries, that's probably necessary. But in most cases, a company that treats their employees that way is gonna lose their best people.

所以我很高兴人们开始思考：如何废除这些阻碍激励员工奋斗的荒谬法律和文化？这完全是另一回事。

So I think it's good that people are like, how do we how do we get rid of these kind of ridiculous laws and cultures that don't let us inspire people to work harder? And and that has that is that is something completely different.

你说的正是我们核心理念——企业文化无法靠立法建立。就像我们组织的核心价值观「进取心」，在理想团队成员定义中，这绝非工作狂式的表现。

Well, I think so much what you're saying is kind of core to what we talk about, which is you have to create a culture in a company. You can't legislate hunger. You can't regulate hunger. And the idea of, like, you know, one of our core values at our own organization is hunger. And the way we define it in the ideal team player is it's not a level of workaholism.

事实上，如果应聘者将自我价值完全绑定在工作产出上，我们反而会拒绝录用。所谓禁止下班后联系员工的立法在我们这里根本不需要，因为我们的文化是：如果有紧要事务，大家自然会主动协作解决。

You know? Like, in fact, we would we would decline an applicant that wanted to work at the table group if their hunger showed up in sort of a identity based desire to prove their worth. And that was like their their worth was their ability to produce. That that is not what we mean by hunger. And so what's so interesting is like when you talk about, you know, a legislation that would prevent you from calling me after hours, we we don't need that here because our culture is like, hey, if there's something that needs to get done, you know, sure.

当然应该下班后继续沟通完成工作，但这不同于强制加班到晚上九点。这种立法是本末倒置的做法。

Of course. We should connect after hours. We should get it done. That's not, you know, you telling me after work until 9PM. And I think that's why there's this sort of backwards way.

他们试图用法规倒逼本应通过文化主动培养的进取心和竞争力，这根本行不通。

They're trying to back their way into what they should try to proactively create in a culture, which is hunger and competitiveness. It just doesn't work that way.

经过长期思考我悟到：招聘是最重要的事。不要招工作狂，也不要招懒散者。正如吉姆·柯林斯所说『慢招聘快解雇』，要找那些真正追求卓越、具备职业操守，而非完全牺牲个人生活来证明忠诚的人。这两种极端都不可取。

And there's two that's taken me a while to get to this today and to think about this, but hiring is one of the most important things. I mean, do not hire workaholics and do not hire slackers. And over the years, Cody, and you've talked about this, Jim Collins said, hire slow and fire fast. But hire slow means find people that really want to do a great job, you know, and that really have a strong work ethic, but not that want to prove to everybody else that they're willing to sacrifice their personal life completely for the good of the company. And and the either of those extremes is a really bad thing.

我担心世界正从一个极端走向另一个极端。我们需要建立可持续的竞争模式，兼顾工作生活平衡与卓越绩效。我始终推崇的是「灵活性」——当年每周强制工作72小时时，我们感觉就像奴隶。

And I fear that what's going on in the world right now is we went from one extreme and now we're gonna go to the other. And both of those are not sustainable. We wanna create a model of sustainable competitiveness that that allows for work life balance, but also makes us really successful at work. And I think the word that I like and we've always believed in is flexibility. When I worked at a job where they wanted us to work seventy two hours a week, we felt totally like slaves.

我们当时的状态是，必须待在那里。发展到后来，晚上我们会把外套挂在办公隔板上，故意把桌面弄乱，让灯一直亮着，以防有人经过时觉得‘哇，他还在加班。这家伙真拼’。你知道吗？我认为奖励有进取心的员工最好的方式，是给予他们在何时及如何完成工作上的灵活性，并设定清晰的目标。

We were like, we had to be there. We got to the point where at night we would hang our jacket on our our thing, mess up our desk, keep our light on just in case people might walk by and think, wow, he's still here. That guy's a dog. You know? I I think the best way to to reward hungry employees is to give them flexibility around when and how they get things done and give them clear goals.

他们几乎总会超出你对他们产出和效率的预期。只是这些成果不会按照你制定的时间表出现。

And they will almost always exceed your expectations for for for their output and their productivity. It just won't come on a schedule that you determine.

是啊。我很喜欢‘灵活性’这个词。我以为你会用‘主人翁意识’这个词。

Yeah. I I like the word flexibility. I thought the word you're gonna use is ownership.

这个嘛

Like Well

因为饥饿感往往伴随着某种程度的竞争意识和主人翁精神——就像‘嘿，这是我的责任范围。不管花四小时还是十四小时完成，这都是我的职责。这是你划归我工作范畴的内容’。而且，正如你所说，这确实取决于你雇佣什么样的人。

would because there's a certain level of competitiveness and ownership that that goes along with hunger, which is like, hey. This is my area of responsibility. And whether it takes me four hours to complete or fourteen hours to complete, this is my responsibility. This is the what you've given me as, like, in my purview at work. And and, again, I think it goes back to, like you said, depending on who you hire.

如果招错了人，你当然得用规章制度来约束，或制定政策。说到组织健康，我最喜欢的一句话是：世界顶尖企业能将文化制度化而不官僚化。而现在我们看到的是，他们试图用官僚手段来塑造一种文化，试图倒推出‘如何激发进取心’。

If you hire the wrong people, of course, you have to legislate that or you have to find a way, a policy. You know? And and I love the phrase when we're talking about organizational health that the best organizations in the world institutionalize their culture without bureaucratizing it. Right. And I think that what we're hearing is they're trying to bureaucratize a culture that would, you know, sort of back its way into how do we create hunger.

‘那就让他们多干活呗’——这根本不是商业世界的运作方式。

Well, let's make them work more. And that's just not the way that the the business world works.

没错。关于主人翁意识，这确实是我招聘时看重的特质。当我们谈论进取心时，其实是在问：他们是否有主人翁意识？即使无人关注，他们是否觉得自己的工作有意义？就像‘这是我的事业，我的工作成果直接关系到我的声誉’——不是自尊心（那可能过度），而是‘这对我很重要’。

Yeah. You know, the the ownership thing, I do think that's the thing I would look for in hiring. When we talk about hunger, it's like, they have a sense of ownership? Does their do do they feel like the work they do matters in terms of even if nobody notices, I want that customer to that this is my my business. This this work I do really reflects on my reputation, not my self esteem because that's that can get too much, but it's like, no.

我会全力以赴，因为我关心客户和同事，在意外界对这里的评价——而不是因为害怕被解雇，或有人强迫我这么做。

It matters to me, and I'm gonna go above and beyond because I care about my customer or my colleague and and how this place looks to the outside world, not because I'm afraid to get fired or because somebody is forcing me to do that.

帕特，我觉得这个话题还有另一个层面。我们之前提到过，现在社会存在某种‘舒适危机’——人们不愿感受任何不适。昨晚我和练柔术的女儿聊天，妻子告诉我她对教练有些意见。我就说...

You know, Pat, I I think there's another part of this conversation that is, you know, we've touched on this before is like, there is this sort of comfort crisis, you know, thing in in society where people don't wanna feel discomfort. Yeah. I was even talking to my daughter last night. She she's in jujitsu, and and I wasn't there. My wife told me that she had, like, some issues with the coach, and I said, hey.

昨晚发生了什么？她当时说，他们对我施加了很大压力，情况很艰难。我试图解释，这其实是件好事。我认为这就是为什么一开始要把它当作哲学辩论——如果你不相信工作和同事、上级应该适度推动你进步，如果领导者周围的人没有变得更好，我觉得这正是企业正在面临的哲学争论。比如，我认为你对我要求更多，并不是说我们要立法规定‘下班后不准联系我’。

What was going on last night? And she's like, you know, they were just pushing me really hard, and it was it was hard. And I I was trying to explain, like, that's a good thing. And I think this is a fill this is why I talked about it being a philosophical debate at the very beginning is because if you don't believe that your work and your colleagues and the people who lead you at work are supposed to push you a little bit so that you can level up and become better, if the people around a leader are not getting better and it's just like I I think that's that's a philosophical argument that companies are having. Like, I I think you requiring more of me is not a let's legislate that and say you can't you can't call me after hours.

这是因为你看到了人们的潜力，我们相信工作是成长和突破自我的地方。如果我加入Table Group时带着某种程度的进取心，十年后我希望自己更加渴望成长——这需要些许不适感。关于员工权利与领导者之间的拉锯战，我认为只要营造正确的文化氛围，让大家为学习成长而来，就无需强调‘别在晚上找我’这种规则。

It's because you see potential in people and we believe in a in a world where work is where we're growing and where we can go beyond our own. You know, if I enter the table group at a certain level of hunger, I would hope ten years later that I'm actually more hungry because I wanna grow as a human being. And that's gonna that's gonna come from a little bit of discomfort. And I think this war between, you know, the the right of the worker and the leader, I think if you're creating the right culture where where we're we're coming to work to learn and grow, you don't have to say, hey, don't call me at night. Right.

当然也存在滥用的情况，所以我们常说不能让律师管理公司——当出现领导者要求过高或推行996制度时，我们就得把钟摆荡向保护员工那一端。其实中间有广阔的平衡空间。

You know? And there's there's some people who obviously abuse that and this is why we often talk, you know, not to throw lawyers under the bus. It's like, this is why we don't let lawyers lead companies for the same reason because there's one anomaly where there's a leader who's required too much or said, you know, we're gonna implement the nine nine six rule, and then we have to swing the pendulum to the opposite side and try to protect the employee. And there's a lot of room in the middle.

对。我欣赏你关于‘将文化制度化而非官僚化’的观点。官僚化意味着制定条条框框的政策，而制度化是通过招聘和管理方式建立高期望值且灵活的文化。这个例子很典型——大公司或许难以实现，但中小型企业完全可能。

Yeah. I liked when you said about institutionalizing but not bureaucratizing the culture. Bureaucratizing means we have a policy that says this and this and this. Institutionalizing this says we have a culture in the way we hire and how we manage people that has very high expectations for them and gives them flexibility. And I love this example because sometimes it gets down into policies.

当初创立Table Group时，我们正步入家庭生活阶段。记得联合创始人Tracy休产假时，有人问产假政策是什么？我说‘按她需要来’。虽然公司规模小，但我不打算照搬其他公司的政策手册。当我说‘休四个月也行’时，有人觉得疯狂。

And if you if you work at a big company, maybe this is not I mean, it's probably not possible. It might be though. But in a medium size or a smaller company, it certainly is. When we started the table group, all of us were just entering into our families were going to start having kids. And I remember when Tracy went out on maternity leave, co founder of the company, I said people are like, what's the policy on maternity leave?

结果呢？Tracy产假期间在家处理薪资事务，我们劝她别做，她却说‘这很简单，我抽空就能完成’。她的主人翁精神让她以适合家庭的方式超额付出——这是任何预设政策都无法实现的。

And I said, whatever she needs. And they said, well, yeah, know. But and we're small. And so it was like, I'm not going to go to some other company and borrow their playbook or their their policy manual. And I said, I don't I she can she can be gone for four months as far as I'm and somebody said, oh, that would be crazy.

看吧，才休了一个月产假，她就在家处理工资单了。我们都说不必这样，她却坚持‘这点时间我能安排’。

And I said, watch what happens. Yep. There's Tracy at home a month into the her maternity leave running payroll from home. And we were like, hey, we don't want you to do it. She goes, no.

正是这种自主性让她愿意额外付出，同时兼顾家庭。如果我们试图用政策规定这种弹性，反而会适得其反。

No. This is easy. I don't mind being I have a little bit of time here, and I really want this to get done. See, her ownership meant that she was gonna go above and beyond, but in a way that worked for her family. Whereas if I tried to predict that and give a policy that did that, that would never work.

当然我们也招错过人——有人想钻空子只做最低要求。这时我们就明白：这种模式不适合你。

And and if you hire the right people we've hired the wrong people before and put them into that world, and they took advantage of it. And we realized, hey, this isn't gonna work for you, is it? They're like, no. I thought I could just do the minimum. Like, no.

我们给予灵活性是希望你做出正确决策。偶尔会遇到想占便宜的人——但正是例外验证了规则的存在。

We we give you that flexibility so that you can make good decisions. And every once in while, you're gonna find someone that wants to take advantage of that and you, you know, the exception proves the rule.

这也是我想强调的重点，Pat。就像如果你雇用了像Tracy这样合适的人，你就不需要制定政策。而最终发生的情况是，公司在招聘实践中变得懒惰。他们雇用了那些打算钻空子的人。比如有人生了孩子，休了16个月的假，然后你就不得不说，好吧，为了让事情公平，我们只能围绕这个制定一项政策。

And that that was the emphasis I was gonna make too, Pat. It's like, if you hire the right people like Tracy, you don't have to make a policy. And what ends up happening is companies get lazy around their hiring practices. They hire people who plan to take advantage of that. Somebody who has a baby and is out sixteen months, and then you have to say, well, the only way for us to kind of make this even and fair is to create a policy around it.

所以在某种程度上，我认为很多问题，如果你在谈论欧洲的同一个领导者，他们会说，伙计，我们怎样才能更有竞争力？答案不就是雇用有竞争力的人吗？然后培养有竞争力的人，而不是制定996规则，或者天黑后可以联系你的规定。我真的认为，而且我们多次讨论过，这是一种竞争优势。

And so in some ways, I think a lot of this you know, if you were talking about same leader in Europe and they said, man, how do we get more competitive? Isn't the answer just hire competitive people? Like and and develop competitive people instead of is it a nine nine six rule? Is it a, you know, we can contact you after dark rule? I I really do think and and we've had many conversations where this is a competitive advantage.

如果你是一个有饥饿感并愿意尝试的人，现在市场上有大量好工作等着你，因为长期的疫情让企业变得迟钝，人们因为在家工作而逐渐降低了效率和效果。只要你有一点点进取心，就有无数公司抢着要你。

If you're a human being that has hunger and you wanna try, the market is ripe for you to get great jobs right now because that long corporate COVID, the the way people have sort of kind of slid into less effectiveness and efficiency because they've been working from home. If you have any ounce of hunger about you, there are companies all over that are just dying to hire you.

是的。而且一开始就要明确。我记得在Table Group早期，我们面试一位女士时，她第一个问题就是关于休假。甚至在了解工作内容之前就问这个。我们当时就觉得，她这是在自我保护。

Yeah. And be explicit upfront. I mean, I remember in the early days of the table group, we hired we we were interviewing this woman, and the first question she asked was time off. And and that's before about the job, about what she was gonna do. And we were like, oh, she's she's like, I wanna protect.

其他人会说，我对这个工作很兴奋。然后我觉得，好吧，我的责任是确保他们不会过度消耗自己或牺牲家庭。所以我雇了一个动力十足的人，而我的工作就变成了鼓励他们保持平衡。说实话，这样经营公司比招一堆人然后不断鞭策他们努力要有趣多了。

Other people were like, I'm really excited about this. And then I felt like, okay. It's my job to make sure they don't burn themselves out or sacrifice their family. So I hired a person with a high engine, and then my job got to be like, I want to encourage them to have balance. Man, I tell you what, I running a company like that is so much more joyful than bringing a bunch of people in and trying to constantly crank them up to try harder.

所以确实如此。归根结底就是雇对的人，给他们自由，赋予他们灵活性和自主权。这样你就会有竞争力。如果犯了错，就快速纠正，但不要退缩。因为个别人想钻空子，并不意味着这对其他人不是正确的做法。

So I it's true. It really does come to hire the right people, turn them loose, give them flexibility and ownership. You are going to be competitive. And when you make a mistake, fix it quickly, and do not do not back off. Because just because somebody tried to take advantage of it doesn't mean it's not the right thing for everybody else.

没错。我喜欢'饥饿感致胜'这个话题。这是真的。是饥饿感真正带来胜利，不是政策，不是流程，也不是工作时长，而是饥饿感。

Yeah. I like I like the hunger wins topic. It's a I mean, it's true. Hunger, real win. Not policies, not procedure, not work hours, but hunger.

是的。如果你想成为这样的公司的领导者，你也必须拥有那种饥饿感和主人翁意识。好了，今天就到这里。谢谢，Cody。

Yeah. And if you're gonna be a leader in that company, you have to have that hunger and that sense of ownership too. Alrighty. That's it today. Thanks, Cody.

非常感谢。

Appreciate it.

嗯，你也是。

Yeah. You too.

我们下次再聊。在《At the Table》播客中，我们下次会与大家再会。愿上帝保佑。

We'll talk to you next time. We'll talk to everybody next time on the At the Table podcast. God bless.