如何投资食品行业？与Tenacious Ventures一起投资农业科技

香草冰淇淋和GlobalX新推出的澳大利亚300 ETF有什么共同点？它们都是经典的核心风味，作为坚实基础，可以添加更令人兴奋的配料或投资。介绍一款300产品，通过一只ETF即可投资澳大利亚证券交易所前300家上市公司。这正是强化你投资组合核心的经典香草式投资。

What do vanilla ice cream and GlobalX's new Australia 300 ETF have in common? They're both classic core flavors, working as a solid foundation for more exciting toppings or investments. Introducing a 300. Access the top 300 ASX listed companies in one ETF. Just a classic vanilla investment to strengthen the core of your portfolio.

年费仅为0.04%，极具竞争力，是覆盖300家公司而非通常200家的最低成本ETF。详情请访问globalxetfs.com.au。金融服务牌照号466778。投资有风险，回报不保证。请参阅相关产品披露声明和目标市场确定书。

At a competitive fee of just 0.04% per annum, it's the lowest cost ETF serving up 300 companies instead of the usual 200. Visit globalxetfs.com.au to learn more. AFSL 46677eight. Investing involves risk, and returns are not guaranteed. Refer to the relevant PDS and TMD.

欢迎收听本期播客。在开始前，我要为大家带来赞助商Termplus的特别消息。你可能之前听过Termplus团队在播客中的介绍。具体来说，在2025年10月1日至31日期间，RASK听众若选择通过Termplus投资超过3万澳元，即可获得300澳元奖金，这是他们正在进行的优惠活动。

Welcome to this episode of the podcast. Before we get into it, I wanna give you a special update from one of our sponsors. That's Termplus. You've probably heard some of the team from Termplus on the podcast before. But for the month of October 2025 until thirty one October twenty twenty five, to be precise, RASK listeners who choose to invest their money with term plus can get a $300 bonus as part of an offer they're running for anyone that invests more than $30,000.

你们都懂的规矩。投资前务必确认适合自己，但你可以点击播客播放器中的链接，或访问term+.com.au了解更多优惠详情和参与方式。现在进入正题。你们是否有某种评分卡或系统化的资本配置决策方法？

And you know the drill. Always make sure the investment is right for you before investing, but you can follow the link in your podcast player or head to term+.com.au to learn more about what's on offer and how to get involved. Now let's get into the episode. Do you guys have like a scorecard or some type of way of systematizing your capital allocation decisions?

我们会先问：我们在寻找什么？对我们来说，这被称为OCP——机会、公司、合作伙伴关系。我们会评估市场宏观情况，比如市场规模、现有参与者等机会因素，观察行业变化趋势，然后考察公司本身的团队、技术实力和业务进展。

One would be like, what are we looking for? And and that for us, we call it OCP, like opportunity company partnership. And so we're sort of looking at, you know, the the macro, like, how big is the market and and who are the players and and those kinds of things in opportunity. How is it changing? And then the company itself, like the team, the technology, how much traction they have.

这些公司是如何找到你们的？或者说你们如何发现它们？毕竟澳大利亚地域广阔。如果投资对象可能是区域性企业的话...

How did these companies find you guys, or how do you guys find them? Because Australia is a huge place geographically. But if you're investing in companies that might be regionally based

我们坚信内容的力量。我们专注于农业和食品领域。很多人是通过我们的播客找到我们的——有人收听节目后，甚至可能在六个月后，那位创始人就会主动联系我们。这感觉像是被动获客，但其实是持续主动推广的自然结果。

We're big believers in content. We just do ag and food all the time. A lot of people do come to us with our podcast. Someone will hear it, and, you know, maybe even six months later, that actual founder will come to us. It sort of feels like it's inbound, that it's a result of of very active outbound activity.

大家好，先快速说明一下。本播客仅提供一般性财务建议，这意味着它并不针对您的个人需求、目标或具体情况，因此在咨询您的财务顾问之前，请勿依据此信息采取行动。完整声明、免责条款及金融服务指南链接可在节目备注中查看。

Hey there. Here's a quick note. This podcast contains general financial advice only. That means it's not specific to you, your needs, goals, or objectives, so don't act on the information until you've spoken with your financial adviser. You'll find our full disclosure, disclaimer, and link to our financial services guide in the show notes.

莎拉，欢迎来到《澳大利亚投资者播客》。

Sarah, welcome to the Australian Investors Podcast.

谢谢邀请我参加。

Thanks for having me on.

还有，马修，老兄，真是荣幸之至。

And, Matthew, mate, absolute pleasure.

是啊是啊，太棒了，很高兴能来这里。

Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Great to be here.

我知道你们两位都是播客老手，经常做这个。你们也是投资专家。所以我们要聊聊你们共同创立的事业，通过Tenacious Ventures投资的企业，并深入探讨澳大利亚这个巨大的市场。我其实一直在思考这个问题。

I know you guys are podcast pros. You do this a lot. You're also investing pros. So we're gonna talk about the business that the two of you have built, the businesses that the two of you invest in through Tenacious Ventures, and kinda get to the bottom of this huge marketplace here in Australia. I was actually thinking about this.

我能先确认一下吗？你们知道农艺师是做什么的吗？好的，看到你们都点头了。

Can I I'll just get a nod of heads maybe for this? Do you guys know what an agronomist is? Yes. You're both nodding. Yeah.

我们之前有位分析师，他最近刚离开RASK。他去学习成为一名农学家。我当时就想，农学家到底是做什么的？这里还有个双关，因为农学就是研究土地的。没错，就是关于土壤、农业这类的事情。

So one of our former analysts, he just recently left RASK. He went and studied to be an agronomist. And I was like, what on earth is an agronomist? And there's a pun in there because it's all about the earth. And, yeah, it's all about soils and agriculture and these types of things.

这让我看到了澳大利亚庞大的市场和各种职业，比如我们整个食品体系中的细分行业。简直不可思议。希望我们能有机会把这个某种程度上隐藏在主流视野之外的行业展现出来，但它确实至关重要。我们会把这和风险投资的话题结合起来。所以，马特，也许可以从你开始。

And it kind of opened my eyes to this enormous marketplace in Australia and different professions, like sub industries within this whole food system that we have in Australia. Like, it's just incredible. So hopefully, we get a chance to bring out kind of this somewhat hidden from the main street industry, but is that's something that is vitally important. And we're gonna blend that with VC talk. So, Matt, maybe we'll start with you.

你在进入风险投资之前，是从技术可观测性、农业用水系统起步的。能简单聊聊这段经历吗？

You started in tech observability, ag water systems before getting into VC. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

当然。我的背景确实最初是创业者，而非金融领域。但在创业过程中，最终开发了监测澳大利亚用水情况的技术。

Yeah. Sure. Yeah. My background definitely is a founder, not not in in finance, originally. But through that journey, kinda ended up building technology to monitor water use in in Australia.

在澳大利亚，人人都知道水是宝贵资源。随着业务国际化，我常会参加关于水资源议题的会议。我意识到澳大利亚在气候适应性农业方面——虽然我们一直这样生产粮食和纤维作物——有着深厚的知识积淀，只是没在国际上讨论。所以当我思考创业之后的道路时，把澳大利亚的这些专业知识传播出去显得必要且重要，毕竟全球都将面临气候适应性农业的挑战。

I mean, everyone in Australia knows that water is a a precious resource. As we expanded internationally, I I would end up in rooms where there were these conversations going on about water, water as a resource, and all this kind of stuff, and I just knew there was this deep kind of wellspring, pardon the pun, of knowledge and understanding of, you know, what today we would call climate adaptive agriculture in Australia because we've always had to produce, our food and fibre that way, but we just weren't talking about it outside of Australia. So, the more I thought about kind of what next for me after the kind of founder side of my story, it just seemed necessary and important to, get so much more of that know how that's inside of Australia kinda out as as the rest of the world was gonna have to deal with the impact of, more climate adaptive agriculture.

嗯。这个话题我们稍后可能会谈到，但很好奇你们两位是怎么相识并合作这一切的。不过莎拉，你这里写着有段阿根廷番茄收获的空档年经历，把各种元素都混在一起了。我觉得这个组合很有趣，你常说这段经历塑造了你的商业思维。

Mhmm. So maybe we'll get to this in a minute, but it'd be fascinating to know how the two of you met and did all of that. But, Sarah, you had a I've got it this here, a gap year tomato harvest in Argentina, which kind of just threw everything in one. And I was like, that's an interesting mix. And you often say that that's kinda like formative to the way you think about business and these types of things.

那么那个空档年是什么样的？你做了什么？它是如何塑造你的？你从中获得了哪些经验教训？

So what was that gap year like? What did you do? And how was it formative? What lessons did you take away?

确实如此。我一直很感激澳大利亚人创造了'间隔年'这个词，因为在我成长的美国，二十多岁时休九个月长假几乎闻所未闻。除非你想当嬉皮士，否则根本没有这种说法。所以'间隔年'这个概念真的很棒。

Yeah. Absolutely. So I'm always grateful to Australians for the phrase gap year because in America where I grew up, like, taking nine months off in your twenties is pretty unheard of. And, like, unless you're gonna be a hippie, like, there's just no term for it. So gap year was was a great one.

但我最初是在国防工业开始职业生涯的。我在硅谷长大，科技和商业一直是我的背景，但对农业接触不多。当我真的休间隔年去南美时，最初因为农场靠近山区而住在那里——我想去徒步和攀岩。但后来我迷上了农业，发现食物种植方式、技术应用、气候影响等方面有太多有趣的东西。

But I I started my career in the defense industry. I grew up in Silicon Valley. So sort of tech and business was always in my background, but not agriculture so much. And so when I did take a gap year and went to South America, I found myself living on farms originally because farms were near mountains, and I wanted to go hike and climb. But eventually, because I became fascinated by agriculture and just saw so many interesting things about how food was grown, how technology could play a role, how climate was impacting, how food was grown.

这就像突然打开了我的思维开关：等等，我现在可以自主决定职业方向、技能运用方式了。农业看起来是个很酷的领域——既能赚钱（这个行业在增长、很关键且面临压力），同时也是行善的机会。

And it kind of flipped a switch in my brain where I said, wait a second. Like, I'm now able to make my own decisions about how I spend my career and how I use my skills and what that looks like. And agriculture seems like this really cool opportunity to both make money. It's it's growing, it's critical, and it's under pressure. And so it's also an opportunity to do well.

这让我突然意识到：在硅谷长大时，父母在半导体行业，那时观念很明确——先赚钱再造福世界，这两件事是分开的。但当我在农场摘西红柿，思考食物种植方式和未来时，发现这两者完全可以兼顾。我立刻被吸引住了，从此再没回头。

And that seemed like, wait a second. I you know, growing up in Silicon Valley, my parents were in the semiconductor industry, and it was very much like, go make money and then do good for the world. Like, those aren't the same thing. And sitting there on a farm, like, harvesting tomatoes and just questioning, like, how our food was grown and and what the future of that would look like, it seems so obvious that that could be both. And I was hooked and kinda haven't looked back since.

哇，所以你离开去做了这些。回来后下一步是什么？你当时关注哪些方向？

Wow. So you went away and did that. And what was the next step for you when you kinda came back? Like, what what is where did you look?

说实话，当时想的是：要在这个领域（比如农业）有发言权就得有可信度，所以我应该先当农民。但转念一想：等等，这恐怕是个漫长过程，我可能会在别人擅长的领域表现糟糕，这并不符合我的技能优势。

Yeah. Well, if I'm really honest, the next step was like, okay. Well, you have to have credibility to be in this space like the, you know, farmers, and so I should go be a farmer. And I was like, wait a second. That seems like a very long journey to be probably pretty bad at something that a lot of people are pretty good at that just isn't aligned to my skills.

于是我在父亲的农场度过了一个夏天，摆弄设备、焊接牛栏，最后意识到：这个学习曲线太陡峭了。我无比尊重农民的工作，但这并非我技能的最佳用武之地。后来我花了些时间摸索自己在食品系统中的定位——是要去发展中国家的非政府组织吗？

And so, I spent a summer sort of living on on my dad's farm and, toying with equipment and welding the cattle grade and, like, was like, okay. This just isn't the the learning curve here is so steep. I have so much respect for what farmers are doing, but this isn't gonna be a good use of my skills. And so ended up going kind of a journey to figure out where in the food system I wanted to play. Was that at an NGO in the developing world?

那是在企业可持续发展领域，最终回归到一个观点：技术及其背后的投资者能够打破这种权衡——即人们认为小规模且对世界有益的事业与大规模且盈利的事业之间的对立。如今这些原型未必成立，但随着气候压力加剧和技术加速发展，二者的交汇将带来巨大潜力和诸多变革。最初吸引我的是技术，但很快问题就变成了：如何为这些企业融资？这种融资方式与其他类型企业有何异同？

Was that in corporate sustainability and and ended up coming back to this idea that technology and the people that would fund it could break this trade off between what was seen as, like, small scale and good for the world and what was gonna be big and profitable. And now those are archetypes not even necessarily true, but the idea that with climate pressures coming in and with technology accelerating, the the intersection of those was gonna be, like, big potential and a lot of change. So at first for me, it was technology, and then it quickly became, well, how do you fund those businesses? And what does that need to look like that may or may not be different than how we fund other kinds of businesses?

马修，也许我该把话题抛给你一会儿。你们两位是怎么认识的？Tenacious Ventures带来了什么机遇？

Matthew, maybe I'll throw to you for a second. How did the two of you meet, and what was the opportunity with Tenacious Ventures?

我笑是因为莎拉在领英上‘跟踪’我。我们就是这样认识的。

I'm laughing because Sarah stalked me on LinkedIn. That's that's how we met.

好吧。

Okay.

当时我正处于思考下一步的阶段，特别是如何建立一个支持创业者的生态系统。作为早期农业科技市场的创业者，我们很难找到员工和对这个行业充满热情的人。那时我在网上发表了一些内容试图创建社群，这让我和莎拉建立了联系。我们越聊越发现彼此对这个机遇的看法高度一致——正如莎拉所说，食品和农业面临重大系统性挑战，而澳大利亚凭借数十年的研究和开发积累，在提升农民效率与盈利能力方面具有独特优势，这些基础工作还具有全球潜力，这正是我们想要释放的。

I so I I was kind of in this phase of thinking about what next and and, in particular, like, how we could start to build an ecosystem here to support founders. As as a founder in sort of, you know, like a proto ag tech market, it was really hard for us to find employees, to find people to be passionate about the industry. And so, was kind of in that phase. I had published some stuff on, you know, online as you do to try and create a community, and that connected with Sarah, and then we kind of talked more and more and realized that we just had a really similar perspective on the opportunity there, which was, you know, as Sarah was saying, like, there's these really big systemic trends around around the challenges of food and ag, and it just seemed like Australia was really well positioned to maximize the decades of research and, you know, development that had gone on to make Australian farmers better, to make Australian farmers more efficient, to make Australian farmers more profitable, but in addition to doing that, that, baseline of, you know, decades of work had global potential, and and that's really what we wanted to work at how to unlock.

是啊，现在看来你们的相遇确实非常幸运，毕竟合作了这么久。莎拉，我想问你的是：初创Tenacious时你提出的那些假设，现在回顾起来是什么？它们进展如何？

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like kind of like the crossing a path is very, very fortuitous now that you've been going for so long. Maybe, Sarah, a question for you is when you when you started out, you drafted these kind of hypotheses about Tenacious. Looking back on them now, like, what were they, and have how have they gone?

这些假设后来实现了吗？

How have they played out?

是的。当我和马修初次相遇时——没错，我确实在网络上悄悄关注过他——而他非常友善地慷慨付出了时间。我们逐渐加深了解。但那时我经营着一家咨询公司，通过与企业、行业和研究机构开展战略合作来助力生态系统建设。

Yeah. So we when Matthew and I met and, yes, I did sort of stalk him online, and then he was very kind to, you know, be generous with his time. We got to know each other more. But at that time, I was running a consulting business. And so we were helping to build the ecosystem by doing strategic work with corporates and industry and research.

我们不断发现，有些杰出企业完全不符合风险投资的标准模板，这似乎是个机遇。马修和我特别能产生共鸣。记得有次担任创业路演评委，其他评委都选择了那家符合传统模式的软件公司——创始人都是前咨询顾问。而我和马修却看中那位非典型创始人，他开发硬件产品且不迎合风投套路。这类共识时刻很多，不仅让我们志趣相投，更催生了一个核心假设：在特定领域深耕并保持高信念，不仅能发掘潜力企业，更能吸引更多资本入场。

And I kept seeing and we kept seeing that the there were really amazing companies that sort of didn't match the template of venture capital, and that seemed like an opportunity. And that was something Matthew and I, in particular, kind of resonated about. I remember one time we were judging a pitch competition and there was like all the judges that picked, you know, this other company software and they looked like ex consultants and they they sort of fit the mold. And Matthew and I were like, wait, this other company where the founder sort of has this nontraditional profile and is building a hardware thing and doesn't speak for venture capital. So there were a lot of moments like that where we got along and had the same worldview, but also kind of led to these hypotheses, one of which was that being sector specific and having high conviction in this space would unlock potential, not only companies getting funded, but more capital to come in.

事实证明这个判断完全正确。我们全身心投入农业领域，咨询业务带来独特视角，农民投资者提供实地洞察，这让我们能看到别人忽视的机会。我们投资了许多来自农业背景或技术研究领域的团队，他们可能缺乏风投经验或不熟悉传统创业路径，而我们就充当桥梁。这种'垂直领域+高信念+强扶持'的模式确实成效显著。

And I think that's really been true with the understanding ag spending all of our time here, having the advisory business that gives us unique insights, having farmers as investors. We can kind of see things that others don't and be connected to things that maybe others aren't. And then that support piece, we do end up finding and backing a lot of companies where the teams maybe come from ag or the ag side of things or research or technical side of things and don't have the kind of fluency with venture capital or don't know what it looks like to build a startup in a traditional way. And so we can help to bridge that gap. So that one, like, sector specific kinda high conviction, high support has really, I think, played out.

当然在具体扶持过程中，如何保持适度介入（毕竟运营公司的是他们不是我们）积累了许多经验教训。另一个被验证的假设是关于气候影响——食品农业系统承受着巨大压力，这不仅是脱碳机遇，更因气候风险催生了必须采用新方法的经济动因。

Now how we do that support and how to not have too much ego in it and, you know, they're running the company, not us. Like, lots of lessons and and insights around that, but I think that one's really played out. Another one was around climate impact so that food and ag is under massive pressure and that it's not just an opportunity to, like, decarbonize. Obviously, that's really important, but that there's actually a real economic opportunity around the risk that our food system is exposed to because of climate, and that will create commercial imperatives for adoption and for new ways of doing things. And I think that's also played out.

新闻里随处可见洪水、野火、烟尘污染葡萄园等事件，整个系统迫切需要具有商业可行性的解决方案。因此我们注重将环保效益与商业价值结合，寻找那些不需要'绿色溢价'或道德绑架就能自然吸引购买的产品。

I mean, you can don't have to look very far in the news to see what floods and fires and smoke taint and wine grapes and all kinds of things. And so there just is a lot of pressure on the system that require new commercially viable solutions. And so that for us has meant aligning that impact and commercial piece. And we look for things that don't necessarily have a green premium or don't require this kind of do good attitude to buy it, that there is a commercial incentive. And so that one's kind of played out as well.

尽管当前美国对气候问题的态度反复，但总体趋势符合我们预期。第三个被验证的假设是'数字原生农业'——技术进步正在以更快更廉价的方式为食品系统创造新解决方案。有趣的是，当初人们听到这个概念时总以为我们要投资农业软件。

You know, faster, slower US views on climate right now. Like, it's it's bumpy, but generally, the trends are going in the direction we thought they would. And then the third one was around what we have said is kinda digitally native agriculture and this idea that technology would be getting better, faster, cheaper, and would unlock new opportunities to build solutions in the food system. I think that's been true. What has been interesting is the perception when we said digitally native agriculture was often that, oh, so you're gonna invest in software.

农业数字化程度确实不高，但向农民卖软件恰恰是我们最不愿投资的领域。我们更关注原子分子层面的深科技，而非比特字节。虽然核心理念未变，但在吸引投资人和传播理念的方式上，我们不断调整以更准确传达业务实质。

Like, you know, agriculture is not as digitized. You need a bunch of software, and you should sell software to farmers. And that's probably, like, the lowest on our list of the kinds of things we'd invest in. And so we tend to look at a lot of deep tech solutions more in the realm of atoms and molecules than bits and bytes. And so and not so much that we changed our view on that, but we've had to evolve how we do that, how we attract investors, and how we talk about it so that people understand, you know, what do we actually do.

这非常有趣。我记得参加过一些小型资本会议，这些会议主要涉及上市公司和即将上市的公司，不是种子轮前的。看到一些技术，比如听众或观众可能联想到无人机飞越农田自动测量作物产量的想法。比如，提前测量温度或气候，或者预测天气，这样农民就能准确判断今天、明天或下周是否需要喷洒农药或施肥，让一切变得更智能高效。

It's it's fascinating. I remember going to some, like, micro cap conferences. These are, like, more, like, public companies and just like pre c pre IPO companies, not pre seed. And seeing some of the technology, like and people can listening to this or watching this can relate to maybe the idea of a drone going over a farm and measuring crop yields automatically. Like, all, you know, measuring the temperature or the the climate in advance or, like, the weather in advance so farmers can accurately determine if they, you know, dust or if they fertilize today or tomorrow or next week or just getting way smarter and more intelligent with things.

Madhid，现在人们脑海中都有这些概念。对吧？但你能给我们讲讲这个市场有多大吗？是的，可能只有通过你的视角，Tenacious，才能了解。

Madhid, now people have these ideas in their head. Right? But can you give us a sense of how big this marketplace is? Yeah. And it might only be through your lens, a Tenacious.

比如，在你的世界里它有多大？或者在整个生态系统和宇宙中它有多大？无论你怎么看。

Like, how big is it in your world? Or how big is it in the entire kind of ecosystem and universe? However you think about it.

嗯，你看，我是说它很大。仅就澳大利亚而言，超过一半的大陆用于农业生产，占陆地面积的55%。这些土地作为资产类别的商业价值约为3.6万亿澳元。虽然我不记得上次查看斯巴鲁的数据，但我想这大约相当于澳大利亚整个养老金体系的规模，比ASX总市值高出约50%。

Well, look, I mean, it's big. Just in an Australian level, so over half the continent is dedicated to agricultural production, 55% of the land mass. The commercial value of that land, so so farmland as an asset category, is about $3,600,000,000,000. I don't remember last time I checked Subaru, but I think that's about the same amount of money that's that's the entire Australian superannuation scheme. I believe that's about 50% higher than the total market capitalization of the ASX.

对吧？所以从土地面积来看，它对国家的影响巨大，我们与土地和经济的关系也非常重要。从这个宏观尺度来看，加拿大养老基金投资澳大利亚农业用地一点也不奇怪。底层资产价值的提升非常显著，虽然会有些波动。

Right? So, at that level, land area wise, it's enormous, the kind of impact on the country, and our relationship, you know, to land and country economically, it's huge. And so from that scale, the kind of macro scale, it's not at all surprising that we see Canadian pension funds coming in here and investing in Australian agricultural land. You know, the the improvement in the in the asset underlying asset value has been very significant. You know, it waxes and wanes a bit.

所以在这个层面上，规模巨大。更微观或中观来看，澳大利亚农场年产值约1000亿澳元，这只是生产价值，利润约160亿。当你思考技术提升农场效率的作用时，即使是小幅效率提升——尤其是大部分变量来自天气、气候和市场因素——技术的微小进步也能带来巨大机遇。这就是我们从宏观经济角度看待它的方式。

So kind of at that level, enormous, you know, more at the kind of micro or meso sort of scale farm gate output in Australia is about a $100,000,000,000 a year. That's just literally the value of production. Profit on that is about 16,000,000,000. And so when you think about, okay, the role of a technology that improves on farm efficiency, you know, small improvements in efficiency, and especially most of that variability comes from factors relating to weather and therefore ultimately climate and markets, you know, both in terms of pricing of inputs and outputs, but also just the conditions under which farmers have to so then when you kind of zoom into the the power of technology, small incremental improvements on farm, you know, really have a massive, opportunity, availability. So, that's that's kind of the lens through which we look at it at a at a kind of gross economic scale.

和许多听众一样，我可能是《克拉克森的农场》的忠实粉丝，这部纪录片记录了杰里米·克拉克森在英国经营农场的历程。对于没看过的人，这完全关于农业和耕作——既是爱好也是生意。比如晚一周或早一周播种，或者是否监控特定地块，都会产生重大影响。不剧透太多，但在最后一集他们总会讨论农场是否盈利。

I am like many people that listen to the show, perhaps, I'm a big fan of Clarkson's Farm, which is the tracks the journey of Jeremy Clarkson in the in The UK trying to build his farm. And for anyone that hasn't seen the show, they they it's it's all about agriculture and and farming. Just somewhat hobby farm, somewhat business. And the difference that, you know, planting a week late or a week early or, like, whether you're monitoring a particular paddock can have significant impacts. The the kind of the the not to take too much away from anyone who hasn't seen it in the show, the spoiler, but at the in the finals episode, they always talk about if the farms made a profit.

有一年，它从巨额亏损摇摆不定。第二年又获得巨大收益。实际上他们每个季节做的事情并没有太大不同。所以如果你能逐步改进这些方面，那就是一个巨大的机会。你们是如何将这个理念——这个庞大的市场、对农民和你们两位及企业以及所支持公司来说都是巨大商机的理念——具体落实的？

And one year, it swings from, like, huge losses. The next year, it's massive gains. And they're like, it's not that different season to season what they actually did. And so if you can incrementally improve those things, it's a massive opportunity. How did how did you guys, like, take that idea of, say, like, this huge marketplace, tremendous opportunity both for farmers, but also just, like, commercially for the two of you and the business and and and the companies that you support?

你们是如何将其精简到某个特定领域作为关注点的？这就是我们想要的，这就是我们想在市场中扮演的角色。你们两位谁都可以回答，我只是好奇。

How do you whittle that down to something that, like, this is our focus area? This is what we want. This is our kind of this is our part of the market that we wanna play in. Like, either of you can answer that, but I'm just curious.

是的。我们首先考虑的是投资方向——什么是我们的职责范围？显然这种纪律性很重要。我们思考系统性变革和相互关联的本质。

Yeah. So we like, I guess the first answer is just where do we invest? Like, what's in mandate for us? And obviously, that discipline is important. We think about systems change and we think about the interconnected nature.

可能有影响农场但被上游采用的东西。最简单的解释方式（不涉及所有复杂性）就是农场大门之前——遗传投入品、那些最终进入食品和纤维领域的事物，以及农场实际发生的所有事情：从管理决策到机器人技术、害虫管理、碳等领域，再到供应链环节——农场大门之后的加工、包装、废弃物甚至配料。

You might have something that impacts farms but is adopted upstream. But the easiest way to explain it without being in all that complexity is like pre farm gate. So genetics inputs, like things that are happening that then get sold into the food and fiber landscape, things that happen on farm. So actual you know, everything from management decisions to robotics and pest management and and, you know, carbon and and all of those areas and then into the supply chain as well. So post farm gate, would look at processing, packaging, waste, and even into, like, ingredients.

所以我们关注创造食品或包装的新方法。但我们不投资食品公司——从气候角度看，澳大利亚消费市场不大，影响力有限，而且那领域很多是营销专长，不是我们的强项。所以我们说这些上游环节都是可选范围。

So novel ways of creating food products or or packaging them or those kinds of things. What we don't do is like food companies. So we you know, Australia doesn't have a particularly large consumer market from a climate perspective, not particularly impactful. And just a lot of the expertise there is, like, marketing, and that's not our expertise. So we sort of say upstream of that, anything's fair game.

这包括林业和渔业领域（我们在此涉足较少），但基本上是整个农业食品和纤维产业。这就是我们划定的边界。在此范围内，我们不投资生产环节，不投资农场经营。

And that can include things into, like, forestry and fisheries. We've done a bit less there, but as sort of all of agri food and fiber. So that's kinda how we draw the boundaries. And then within that, like, we don't invest in production. So we don't invest in farming businesses.

我们寻找那些能在食品纤维生产、包装或加工经济性方面实现突破的技术公司。这就是我们的重点。

We're looking for those technology companies that have some kind of unlock around the economics of whether that's producing or packaging or processing food and fiber. So we're looking again at that

友善的

kind

一种风险投资的视角，专注于高增长、由变革性技术驱动的企业。

of venture lens of of, like, high growth transformative technology enabled businesses.

也许在你的网站上，Sarah，他们发布了一篇博客和播客，讨论硅谷是否扼杀了农业科技。我们稍后会谈到你支持的公司以及你如何看待单位经济学等问题。但如果我们暂时停留在风险投资的世界里，为什么这甚至会成为一场辩论？毕竟你有这方面的经验。

On your website maybe sticking with you, Sarah. On your website, they did this blog post this podcast about about did Silicon Valley kill AgTech? And we'll get to the companies and all that sort of stuff in a minute that you're backing and how you think about, like, unit economics and that. But if we just stay in the world of VC for a second, why is that even a debate? Like, you've got the experience there.

为什么这会成为我们讨论的话题？

Like, why is that a debate that we have?

如果你将农业科技投资视为风险投资的一部分，回顾2012/2013年，孟山都以约10亿美元收购了气候公司，这引发了一系列讨论，人们开始认为食品农业是一个未被开发的风险资产类别。资金开始涌入，你可以看到数据逐年增长，直到2021、2022年，然后在2023、2024、2025年有所下降。所以问题在于，这是否真实？是否证明了这是一个真正可投资但之前未被开发的资产类别？

So if you look at funding in ag tech as a part of venture, jumping back to sort of 02/1213, Monsanto acquired the Climate Corporation for about a billion dollars, and that kicked off this sort of journey of people saying, well, food food nag is this untapped venture asset class. And so money has sort of poured in. And you can look at the data growing year over year into kind of twenty twenty one, twenty two, and then it's sort of fallen off in twenty three, twenty four, twenty five. And so the question is really like, is that true? Is that proven out that this is a really venture backable asset class that was untapped into?

如果是这样，那么回报在哪里？不幸的是，最近我们有不少高知名度、资金充足的农业科技公司宣布破产或被重新估值。因此，我们真的想提出这个问题，并展开讨论：这是农业本身的问题吗？它不适合投资吗？还是风险投资模式的问题？

And then if so, like, where are the returns? And, unfortunately, recently, we've had quite a few high profile, well funded ag tech companies declare bankruptcy or be revalued. And so we really wanted to ask this question and and sort of come out and and start the conversation around, is this a problem with ag? Like, is it not investable? Is it a problem with VC?

比如，是否匹配不当，还是存在更微妙的因素？那篇文章的标题确实有些故意挑衅，但我们最终得出的结论是：两者都不是。当你套用源自硅谷、为软件和现在AI设计的严格风险投资模板时，如果你投资的是硬件或生物性质的项目，这些项目具有季节性、与自然系统互动、需要不同的方法，你就会忽视食品农业系统的许多挑战。所以我们真正想说的是，这不是好与坏的问题，也没有人扼杀了什么——这有点挑衅。但何时我们需要质疑这种基于软件的模板化风险投资模式在食品农业领域的适用性？

Like, it's not a fit, or is it something more nuanced? And, you know, the title of that post was a bit intentionally provocative, but really where we've landed and what we think is true is that it's kind of neither of those. It's when you apply the strict template of venture capital that came out of Silicon Valley and has evolved to be designed for software and now AI, you're missing a lot of the challenges of the food and ag system if you're backing things that are, you know, hardware or or biology in nature that has seasonality, that interacts with natural systems, that requires, you know, just a different approach. And so really trying to move away from this, like, it's not good or bad and, you know, no one killed anything that's a bit provocative. But where and when do we need to question the templated kind of software based venture model for Foodnag?

那么它更直接适用于什么时候？这正是我们想要请教的问题。这也是我们花费大量时间思考的，因为我们通常不会在这个领域投资很多软件公司。

And when does it more directly apply? And that's that's that's what we were hoping to ask. And that's what we spend a lot of time thinking about because we don't tend to back a lot of software companies in this space.

你之前提到过'深度科技'这个词或名称。我很好奇，你能为我们定义一下吗？你所说的深度科技具体指什么？

You said before that you you mentioned the phrase or the the name deep tech. And I'm curious, can you just define that for us? Like, what do you mean by deep tech?

是的。在澳大利亚他们称之为深度科技，在美国则叫硬科技，这容易让人混淆——难道只是指硬件吗？我们认为这类企业涉及原子和分子的转化，而不仅仅是比特和字节。

Yeah. It's so I think in Australia, they call it deep tech. In US, they call it hard tech, and then it gets confused. Is that just hardware? So we think about it as businesses that have some sort of transformation of atoms and molecules, not just bits and bytes.

因此可能是硬件电子领域，也可能是生物化学范畴，或是两者的结合。但本质上，这些企业推向市场的技术都包含某种物理元素，他们设计的干预措施与技术层面——即编写软件——有所不同。虽然通常包含软件成分，但这类公司所依托的技术栈远不止软件。

So that might be hardware and electronics that might be more in the biology chemistry realm. They might have a combination of the two. But basically, there's some sort of physical element of the technology that they're bringing to market and the intervention that they're designing versus the technology aspect is is writing software. So often they have software elements, but it's not just software that is the kind of tech stack that these companies are are leveraging.

这确实很有趣，因为今天之前我就在思考澳大利亚证交所上市公司的情况——作为公开市场投资者如何获得相关投资机会。实际上选择很少。按照你所说的标准筛选企业类型，我一时甚至想不出符合条件的上市公司。可能有几家，但此刻我完全想不起来。不过这类创新每天都在发生。

It's it's really interesting because leading into today, I was thinking about, like, ASX listed companies and how do you get exposure if you're a public markets investor. And there isn't a lot. And if you take that perspective of what you're talking about, there are the types of businesses that you guys are looking for, there is I can't really off the top of head, don't even know if there are any. Like, there might be a few, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. So but it happens every day.

对吧？这就是我们的国家，拥有众多优质农场，整个体系不仅对我国至关重要，也影响着许多国家——我们在这里所做的一切。因此获得相关投资机会显然很有意义，但除非身处你们这个领域，否则实在太难了。稍后我还想请教你们如何发现这类机会。但以我这个外行人的视角来看——

Right? This is our country and there's so many great farms and the whole system is integral to not just our country, but to many countries, what we do here in this country. So getting some exposure to it seems to make, like, a lot of sense, but it's just so hard unless you're in your world. And I've got more questions about, like, how you find those types of opportunities in just a moment. But if I'm thinking about it, like, what I'm familiar with is from, like, an outsider's perspective.

我在维多利亚州亚拉河谷附近十英亩的农场长大。虽然那算不上今天我们谈论的那种规模化农场，但我记得当时做任何事情成本都很高。对吧？所有事情都需要大量资金投入。

I grew up on 10 acres near the Yarra Valley in Victoria. We we we were a farm, but it was, like, not a, like, a farm like we're talking about today. But I remember, like, things just cost a lot of money. Right? Like, to do things cost a lot of money.

推出新想法需要大量资金投入，也需要时间。所以我想问的是，当人们认为你们在为农民投资软件时，实际上你们在做的是深度科技。这是否需要部署更多资金到机会中，还是更需要耐心？你们是如何考虑这个问题的？

To roll out new ideas costs a lot of money. It takes time. So I guess my question to you is when people think like, hey, software, you know, you guys are investing in software for farmers, but you're actually doing deep tech instead. Does that require a lot more capital that you need to deploy into opportunities, or does it require more patience? Like, how do you guys think about that?

是的。我认为这实际上是个资本配置的问题。也许回到Sarah先前的回答，硅谷模式的部分做法是快速融资、快速增长、大量投入资本。虽然室内农业、替代蛋白生产等领域的业务确实具有资本密集属性，但有时错误在于立即建造大型设施，导致资本随时间被错配。你提到的第二个词'耐心'我认为也非常关键。

Yeah. I mean, I I think it's a it's a capital allocation question, actually. And and maybe back to Sarah's answer before, some part of the Silicon Valley template was, like, load up fast, grow fast, load in the capital. And and whilst it is true that some of the approaches, you know, indoor agriculture and these sorts of things, you know, alternate protein production, can have a capital element to their business, sometimes the mistake was to sort of like build an enormous facility straight away and sort of like misallocate the capital over time. And I think- so you used the second word there, which I think is also really important, is patience.

回到你提到的《克拉克森的农场》例子，农业科技投资中有句话叫'错过一周，耽误一年'，有时甚至不是你能控制的——比如天气因素。所以这种耐心本质上也是资本配置问题，不仅意味着耗时更长，更需要明智地运用资本，这需要耐心与运气的结合。确实，这些深度科技公司往往具有资本密集的特性。

You know, back to your Clarksons Farm example, there's a phrase in in in ag tech investing called miss by a week, miss by a year, and sometimes you don't even get to control. That that could literally be weather. And so that patience really actually is a capital allocation question. It's not just that it takes longer, but the sort of sensible application, or allocation of capital requires, you know, some combination of patience and, you know, a bit of good luck, obviously, between those two things. So, it is true that the heart attack, deeper tech companies have a capital intensive element to them.

当然存在变通方法。但我想强调的是，要抵制这种诱惑——仅仅因为资金可得，并不意味着在公司早期阶段过度配置资本是正确的做法。

You know, there are there are ways around that for sure. But I think, also, it's like resisting the temptation to sort of just because the capital avail is available doesn't make it the right thing to do to kind of, you know, over allocate it too early in the company's journey.

本播客由Luke Larrative和Seneca金融解决方案团队为您呈现。过去12个月中小盘股表现强劲，Seneca澳大利亚小盘股基金成为同期表现最佳的基金之一。你们认识Ben和Luke，他们常来节目解答大家的问题。

This podcast is proudly brought to you by Luke Larrative and the team at Seneca Financial Solutions. The Seneca Australian Small Companies Fund has been one of the best performing funds over the past twelve months as small caps have really ripped higher. You know Ben. You know Luke. They come on the show all the time and answer your questions.

但你们知道他们有一只管理费为0%的基金吗？当然，其绩效费是基于超过澳洲央行现金利率的部分。看到这些长期参与RAS社区的朋友取得如此成就真是太好了。我知道很多人对Seneca感兴趣，想听他们分享。若想了解更多关于Seneca基金的信息、如何投资，或预约通话讨论投资策略、持仓情况等任何在投资Seneca小盘股基金前想了解的问题，请访问senecafs.com.au。

But did you know they have a fund with a 0% management fee? It's got a performance fee over the RBA cash rate, of course. But it's great to see these guys doing so well having been part of the RAS community for a very long time. I know a lot of you are interested in Seneca and like to hear from the guys. So if you want to learn more about the Seneca fund, how to invest with them, or even just book in a call and a time to discuss the strategy or the holdings and whatever you might wanna ask before investing in a managed fund like Seneca's Small Companies Fund, you can head to senecafs.com.au.

网址是senecafs.com.au。请注意澳大利亚小盘股基金是仅面向专业成熟投资者的批发基金。切记不要仅凭历史业绩就决定投资任何策略，而应关注投资流程、团队声音背后的一致性，以及整体策略框架。详情请访问senecafs.com.au。

That's senecafs.com.au. Don't forget with the Australian Small Companies Fund that it's a wholesale fund for professional, sophisticated investors only. And always, you know, don't just rely on past performance to make an investment in any strategy. You wanna focus on the process and the consistency behind the voices, the team, and, I guess, the strategy writ large. So go to senecafs.com.au.

听完这期播客后，你可以找到所有相关的披露文件。你甚至可以预约与团队通话，给他们发邮件或取得联系。他们还有一个很棒的免费邮件列表，网址是senecafs.com.au。

After listening to this podcast, you can find all the relevant disclosure documents. You can even book a call with the team. Send them an email or get in contact. They've got a great free mailing list as well as you know. That's seneca f s dot com dot a u.

我其实...抱歉稍等。前几天我刚和几位作者聊过，他们写了本关于澳大利亚素食资本的书。他们说按人均投资算，澳大利亚人的资金分配效率惊人。我们投入风投的每一块钱都成效显著，可能是因为这个行业规模比人们想象的小，具体原因你们比我更清楚。

I I actually sorry sorry to hear one second. I actually spoke to some authors the other day who just written a book about veg capital in Australia, and they were saying that, like, dollar for dollar, Australians actually allocate incredibly well. Like, we like, that dollar, that incremental dollar that we put into VC is remarkable. And it's probably because maybe the industry is not as big as people from associated. Or maybe, you know, whatever the case may be, you guys would know more than me.

但听到这个数据时我很惊讶——按比例计算，我们孕育了更多估值超十亿美元的独角兽企业，这非常有意思。莎拉，刚才打断了你，对马修的观点你有什么要补充的吗？

But when I heard that, was like, oh, that's really impressive. Like, pound for pound, we have more, you know, unicorns, which are billion dollar private companies. So that's really interesting. Now, Sarah, I did cut you off. So do you have anything to add to Matthew's point there?

我想说的是，听马修讲述时你可能会觉得这听起来风险很大——为什么要这么做？但另一面是：你可能会错过一周或一年，而且关于农业技术采纳有个误区，总认为农民接受新技术特别缓慢迟疑。

I was just gonna say that, you know, you could hear Matthew talking and say, well, that sounds really risky. And and why would you do that? And so the other side of that equation is, yes, you can miss by a week, miss by a year. But and there's this kind of myth around adoption. Like, farmers are really slow to adopt and really hesitant on technology.

然而硬币的另一面是：当某项技术被验证有效时，农民的采纳速度极快。比如转基因种子的普及速度就超过了iPhone。只要看到确凿的价值主张，这种刻板印象就不攻自破。另一个关键是用户留存率。

And so the other side of that coin, though, is that when something works and when it's proven, farmers are extremely fast adopters. If you look at the adoption of things like GMO seeds, for example, like, that got adopted faster than the iPhone. And so, like, literally, you can look at the adoption curves. And so once it's proven, once it works, once there's a strong value proposition, that's just not true. And then the other one is that retention.

确实，农民可能先在小块田试验，逐步扩大。但一旦验证效果，他们就会成为忠诚客户，留存率极高。这正体现了行业特殊性——如果套用通用模板，会觉得这家公司增长缓慢；但拉长时间维度看，其基本面可能非常扎实。这就是我们关注的要点。

So, yes, farmers might wanna try something on a small plot and then a slightly larger plot. But then once they have proven it and it works, they're extremely sort of loyal customers and retention is the other side of that. So that really for us goes back to that sector specific piece is if you're just applying that same template, it's like, well, this company just isn't growing that fast. But if you sort of zoom out and look at it, well, maybe the fundamentals here are actually quite stronger on that slightly longer time frame or looking through those different metrics. And so that's kind of the stuff we look for.

另外我想强调的是：我们并非只青睐软件公司（虽然软件确实有利润优势）。但在食品农业领域，很多创新机遇在于解决现有系统的关键痛点——那些已投入重资建设加工设施、土地资产的体系，需要新的解锁方案。有些属于软件范畴，但更多是实体创新：比如大幅减少农药用量、开发新型农艺、现场处理废弃物或生产肥料等，这些突破本质上都属于物理层面的革新。

And then the other point I would make is it's not that we will back software companies like the the benefit of software and and the margins and those kinds of things. It's just that in a lot of food and ag, the opportunities are to solve a piece of the puzzle that the existing system that has allocated significant CapEx to a processing facility, to a land investment, there's these sort of unlocks for them. And some of that's in the software realm, but a lot of it's in the physical realm. So being able to use significantly less chemicals and unlock new agronomy on a farm or being able to manage waste on-site or produce fertilizer on-site. And just the nature of those innovations are gonna be in the physical realm.

因此，与其说我们更偏爱硬件或其他什么，不如说食品与农业系统的本质往往需要这类创新。

And so it's not so much that we like hardware better or anything like that. It's that the nature of the food and ag system often requires those kinds of inventions.

这很有趣，对吧？因为我们节目中有很多公开市场投资者谈论单位经济、可扩展性等概念。你们能否分享一个实际案例，说明这些原则是如何运作的？

It's it's interesting. Right? Because, like, we we have a lot of investors, public market investors on the show talk about, like, unit economics and, like, scalability and all these types of things. Can you can either one of you share an example perhaps of, like, seeing that in action? Like, how that plays out?

或许先介绍一下公司背景和业务，能帮助我们更好地理解这个发展路径。

And maybe if you tell us what the company is and what it does, it might help frame that for us on that flat path.

我来举个例子——这其实也涉及到我们如何进行尽职调查，以及这些方法如何随时间演变。比如如何合理配置资金？我们投资了名为Swarm Farm Robotics的公司，创始人是一对来自澳大利亚昆士兰乡村地区的夫妇。

I can do one. So and I think it kinda goes to that, like, how do we diligence it and how does that change over time? Like, how do we sensibly allocate capital? We've invested in a business called Swarm Farm Robotics. Now they are founded by a husband and wife team out of Regional Australia up in Queensland.

初次见面时，他们已经开发出产品的首个工作原型——这是一种无人驾驶机器人拖拉机，没有驾驶舱，能自主在农场移动、识别障碍、导航，并像普通拖拉机一样连接多种农具。比如可安装带有智能技术的喷杆（能识别杂草而非作物）、割草机或施肥机等。他们负责制造拖拉机主体，其他合作伙伴开发配套农具。当时原型机虽已完成，但尚未达到量产销售阶段。这就涉及到如何分配资金，以及他们如何验证市场需求来增强双方信心。

And when we first met them, they had already built the first sort of working prototype version of of their product, which is a robot, like an autonomous think of a tractor without a cabin, without a human that itself can, you know, move in the farm, can detect obstacles, can navigate, but then attaches to a number of implements just like a normal tractor would. So you might attach a spraying boom, which has some sensible technology to find the weeds and not the plants as an example or a mower or a spreader for fertilizer. And so they build the tractor and they partner with others who build those apps or attachments. And so they had built the first prototype when we met them, but it wasn't ready for, alright, let's just manufacture a bunch of them and sell them. And so like, what's the kind of capital allocation and how do they prove demand to give us and them confidence?

他们早期采取的一个策略（发生在我们投资前）是出售机器人身上的广告位，吸引银行、保险公司等机构与政府资金配套赞助，这才得以建造首个原型。下一步策略是：由于对产品完全成熟度存疑，他们不直接销售机器人，而是提供租赁服务——像承包商那样为农场实施喷洒作业并收取服务费，以此验证商业化可行性。

And so one of the things they did early on, this was actually before we invested, was they sold sponsorships to put logos on the robot and to like banks and insurance companies and whoever to to match fund that with government funding. And that's what enabled them to build the first prototype. And then the kind of next step was, well, we don't sell the robot because we're not confident that it fully works. So let's run it as a service and let's prove we can do that spraying operation commercially on a farm as if the farmer brought in a contractor to do it. And let's get paid that sort of service fee.

待模式跑通后，他们引入金融合作伙伴，让农民无需预付全款，只需支付租赁费用即可使用机器人。就这样，他们通过股权/非股权融资、赞助收入和商业化验证等组合拳，逐步推进研发直至具备量产能力。现在他们在图文巴沃勒坎普机场新建了工厂，每周能生产多台机器人。

And then let's move to actually selling the robot, but let's have a finance partner that comes on board so that the farmer isn't paying an upfront cost, but they are paying a lease payment essentially. And so they've just sort of systematically iterated on how to fund that business, both to fund r and d through dilutive and nondilutive funding and sponsorships and revenue and approve the commercial side of things until they were ready to say, okay. Now we can manufacture robots. And and now they have a new facility in Toowoomba at the Wall Camp Airport. They're producing multiple robots per week.

他们部署了数百台机器人，截至九月，覆盖面积已超过1050万英亩。可以说，在这段发展历程中，他们实现了巨大增长，但最初采取的策略是少承诺多交付。我们不想在产品未成熟时就推销，也不希望它在未达到商业化标准时就投入农场运作。关键在于如何找到资金来源支持这种开发模式，而不只是像传统硅谷风格那样单纯依赖股权融资，大笔烧钱。我认为这是个很好的发展案例。

They've got, you know, hundreds of robots deployed on, as of September, over 10 and a half million acres. So, you know, they've grown massively over that journey, but it started with sort of, I think, under promising and over delivering a little bit. Like, we don't wanna sell the thing before it's ready, and we don't want it to be out there operating on a farm if if it's not actually commercially ready. And how do we find the sources of capital that enable us to do that development, not just only use equity in maybe that more traditional Silicon Valley style and just raise a bunch of money and pour that in. And so I think that's a a kinda good example of of that journey.

这是个绝佳案例。那么你们投资组合里有Swarm Farm这家公司吗？

It's a great example. So did you guys own Swarm Farm in the portfolio?

是的。我们从2020年开始作为少数股权投资者参与，拥有董事会席位，并自他们首轮专业融资轮次起就一直支持该公司发展。

Yes. So we so we're minority investors since 2020 and have had, you know, board seat and and supported that company since their first, you know, professional investment round.

哇，令人印象深刻。通常我和投资人交流时——不知道这个问题是否恰当，请见谅——他们都会有套评估标准，比如某些指标之类的。你们是否有类似计分卡的系统化资本配置决策机制？

Wow. That's impressive. Is it normally, when I would talk to investors, and I don't know if this question kinda lands or not, so forgive me. But normally, when I talk to investors, they have, like, a criteria or things that they look for, like metrics or something like that. Do you guys have like a scorecard or some type of way of systematizing your capital allocation decisions?

就大致说说？

Just just high level stuff?

确实有几个维度。首先是寻找什么？我们称之为OCP框架（机会-公司-合作伙伴关系）。我们会评估宏观层面：市场规模、竞争格局等机遇要素。

Yeah. There's really a few that we come at. So one would be like, what are we looking for? And and that for us, we call it OCP, like opportunity company partnership. And so we're sort of looking at, you know, the the macro, like how big is the market and and who are the players and and those kinds of things and opportunity.

其次是行业变革趋势。再看公司本身：团队素质、技术实力、市场验证程度。最后是合作伙伴关系（别人可能称之为交易条款）。我们更倾向于以合作伙伴关系而非交易关系开启合作，毕竟我们追求的是共赢而非零和博弈。

How is it changing? And then the company itself, the team, the technology, how much traction they have. And then we call it partnership. Others might call it deal. We like to try to start off on the partnership foot, not the deal foot because, you know, we're not full to win, not lose.

但关于本轮融资的条款、经济条件、权利等各类事项。在任何特定机会中，我们可能在某个方面投入更多时间，但总体上要确保对所有领域都充分了解。这是一个基本框架。另一个框架则是投资组合构建——我们已募集了一支基金（对不熟悉的听众说明下）。

But the the terms and and the economics of the round and and the rights and those kinds of things. And so in any given opportunity, you might spend more time on one or the other, but we're sort of making sure we get comfortable across all of those areas. So that's kind of one framework. And then the other would be like portfolio construction. So we I guess, again, for those not familiar, like, we've raised a fund.

目前正在募集第二支基金，然后将资金配置到多家私营企业的少数股权中。我们需要考虑持股比例、企业未来资金需求，并确保留有储备金进行跟投。比如一个常用框架是：首轮投资占40%，留60%作为跟投资金。我们倾向早期介入，同时保留资金支持优胜项目。这大致涵盖了两个维度：企业尽职调查方法论，以及投资组合构建与后续支持策略。

We're raising our second fund now, and then we allocate that into a number of minority stakes in these private businesses. And so we're thinking about sort of how much we own of the company, how much capital they're gonna need over time, and making sure we have reserves to follow on. And so one again, another framework would be, like, sort of forty percent first check, 60% reserve for follow on. So we do wanna come in early, but then back the winners and have dry powder available to do that. So I think those are kind of, I guess, two aspects, like how we actually diligence the company and then how we think about constructing the portfolio and and following on and supporting.

马修，我想请教下：这些企业是如何找到你们的？或者说你们如何发掘它们？澳大利亚幅员辽阔，如果投资对象因产品或客户服务需求而具有地域性特征，这个对接过程具体是怎样的？

I guess maybe, Matthew, I'll throw to you, is how did these companies find you guys? Or how do you guys find them? Because Australia is a huge place geographically. But if you're investing in companies that might be regionally based because that's better for their product or better for them to serve their customers. Like, what is that process?

他们是如何主动联系你们，或者你们如何主动出击的？这似乎是个相当有趣的挑战。

Like, how do they actually come to you or you go to them? Like, that seems like a a pretty interesting challenge.

确实如此。我们坚信内容的力量——这点我们理念相通。首要原则是尽可能分享我们积累的知识，这形成了良性循环，相信听众朋友们都能理解。作为专注农业食品领域的基金，我们的优势在于全天候聚焦这个行业，从业者也往往乐于分享时间。

Yeah. Look, it is. We're big believers in content, and and so I'm I'm sure that we vibe on that front. And so, first and foremost, you know, we wanna share as much of what we're learning as possible, and we have found that to be a very virtuous cycle, and I'm sure that that entirely makes sense to to you and everybody listening. So that's a place that we start, you know, in terms of just the advantage, perhaps, of being a sector specific, fund is, like, we just do ag and food all the time, and, you know, we find the people very generous with their time.

通过交流获取知识后继续分享，因此很多人会主动找上门——不限于创始人，还包括创业支持者。比如有人听了我们的《农业科技面面观》播客后口口相传，可能半年后创始人就会联系我们。

We talk to them. We learn stuff. We share. And and, so, you know, a lot of people do come to us, not necessarily just the founders, but people who are supporting founders often. So, yeah, sometimes with with with our podcast called AgTech So What, someone will hear it, they will share it, and, you know, maybe even six months later, that actual founder will come to us.

看似被动获客，实则是主动出击的结果。我和Sia在构建早期生态系统方面都有丰富经验。虽然澳大利亚地域广阔，各州都有创业支持网络，但实际只需约50个关键节点就能串联起整个早期生态圈，包括高校和科研机构。系统性地建立并维护连接，通过举办活动、知识分享等方式深耕社区——这正是我们认为澳大利亚在某些方面具备独特优势的起点。

And so, it sort of feels like it's inbound, but it's a result of- of very active outbound activity. Sia and I also both have had a fair bit to do with sort of helping to construct the early stage ecosystem, and yes, Australia is big and, you know, there's the start up support, you know, in Queensland, in New South Wales, in Victoria, South Australia, WA, Tassie, know, everywhere. But in fact, you know, maybe there's kind of 50 people who you probably could connect all of those early stage ecosystems together, and then the universities and the research institutions. So, you know, look, being systematic about being connected, staying connected, really working hard to be active members of the community, you know, putting on events, attending events, and and, like, sharing knowledge. You know, I guess, really starting from that point that we just thought that Australia, you know, has this sort of unfair advantage in some ways.

听众们可能不知道，澳大利亚和新西兰非常独特的一点在于，它们是全球农业经济保护最少的国家。这意味着没有关税壁垒、没有保护政策，也没有联邦政府强制实施的保险计划。因此，世界其他地区的生产者通常享有经济安全网、价格保障，就像当前美国的情况——联邦政府会直接为农民提供经济援助。基于此，澳大利亚农民必须始终高度关注生产效率，这推动了技术应用的普及。正如莎拉所说，只要能证明有效，技术就一定会被采纳，这一点毋庸置疑。

You know, listeners probably don't know, but something that's very unique about Australia and New Zealand is that they are the least protected agricultural economies in the world. And so so that means there are no tariffs, there are no protections, there's no federal government mandated insurance schemes. So, producers in most other countries in the world have economic backstops and they have price guarantees and they have, you know, what's happening at the moment in The US, they have a federal government that's willing to just literally provide aid, to to farmers for economic reasons. So, based on that, you know, Australian farmers, have always had to be very focused on efficiency, And so that has driven the adoption of technology, you know, to Sarah's point, like, that is shown to deliver will get adopted. You can be sure of that.

嗯。这种韧性似乎催生了一种资本配置的节俭文化，农民们在资金运用和解决方案选择上都体现着这种特质。相比之下，普通投资者购买ETF或股票时，只会查看公司列表和常规指标。而你们更看重人脉网络——认识谁和被谁认识成为巨大优势，这恰恰是项目来源的关键，也是整个投资过程中最迷人的部分。

Mhmm. It's almost like that the resilience has come, and it's like built this these these these frugality with the capital allocation that they pursue, like the farmers pursue, and also just the the the solutions that they turn to. People listening to this that would be probably buying ETFs or shares in their own brokerage accounts and stuff. They'll just be going in, trying to find a list of companies, like all the regular metrics and stuff. Whereas you guys are kind of like it's like who you know and who knows you is a big, big advantage because that's what brings this in, and that's also the big part of the the process, which is fascinating too.

你们提到正在募集第二期基金，但公司已运作多年。我关注过你们的内容，在LinkedIn上看到两位都有相当可观的粉丝量——作为澳大利亚风投这很难得。我想把话题转向被投企业，能否带我们俯瞰你们的投资版图？这既能验证你们的投资理念，也体现了对行业趋势的思考。浏览投资组合时，我首先注意到的是GoTerra。

Now, you guys did mention you are raising for your your second fund now, but the business has been around for quite a few years now, and you guys have been doing this. And I did actually see like, I've listened to your content, seen you both on LinkedIn, pretty substantial followings for Australian VCs, pardon me, which is which is great to see. I'd like to maybe just turn our attention to some of the companies. And I'd just be interested just to if you guys can give us the bird's eye view, because I think this helps shape, like, exactly you're putting your money where your mouth is, but it's also, like, shapes, like, how you think about companies and trends and themes in this sector. So I don't know who wants to go with this one, but the first one that I thought about, when I looked at your portfolio page was GoTerra.

那么谁来聊聊这个项目？

So who wants to go on that one?

我来接这个话题吧。其实莎拉刚才已经提到过——GoTerra创始人奥林匹亚·伊亚加正是她在竞赛中提到的路演者。听众们应该知道，食物浪费是个严峻问题。

Yeah. I'm happy to pick that one up. Actually, I think Sarah already mentioned it. So so Olympia Iaga, who was the founder of GoTerra, was the person who pitched at that competition that Sarah mentioned. And, so, you know, listeners probably, know, you know, food waste is is an enormous problem.

约三分之一甚至更多的食物最终未能到达目标消费者手中。处理食物垃圾是个巨大挑战。GoTerra针对有机废弃物（主要是食物垃圾）提供了解决方案——目前大多数这类垃圾仍被填埋处理。

You know, very significant percentages, a third or more of food, you know, never ultimately makes it, to through to consumption by whoever it was intended to be consumed by. And dealing with food waste is an enormous problem. GoTerra basically is a solution for organic waste, so, you know, food waste, that needs to be disposed of. Most of it today still, unfortunately, is buried in holes in the ground. We've all seen these holes in the ground.

我们都见过那些填埋场，却选择视而不见。这既浪费宝贵土地资源（本可用于其他用途），又产生大量甲烷和温室气体。除了减少浪费，我们亟需更好的处理方式。GoTerra的方案是：在集装箱内培育黑水虻幼虫（俗称蛆虫），垃圾进入后成为幼虫食物，肥大的幼虫可加工成鱼饲料和禽类饲料——这是个真正的循环经济案例。

We we pretend they don't exist, but they are a big problem. The land, you know, is very precious and needs to be used for other things, and it also creates a lot of methane and greenhouse gas. So we have to find better ways, in addition to reducing waste. The way that GoTERRA has found is basically create a container, a shipping container, fill it, full of black soldier fly larvae or maggots as we might call them, and, yeah, the waste goes in, the maggots eat it, they get big and fat, and then the maggots come out the other end, and there's plenty of good things that you can do with those maggots afterwards, including feeding them to fish and to poultry. So, you know, a real circular economy story.

奥林匹亚提出的核心理念是将这些庞大设施缩小至集装箱尺寸，而非继续考虑那些巨型处理厂。要知道，有机废物中约80%是水分。在澳大利亚这样的国家，将废物运输到集中处理设施再加工的效率极低。而Groterra技术实现的这种分散化处理模式，其单位经济效益非常可观。

That idea of rather than thinking about these enormous facilities, shrinking everything down to a shipping container size is like the fundamental thing that we saw and heard Olympia say. You know? And another thing, if you think about waste, I I think, you know, it's something in the order of 80% of organic waste is water. And so transporting the waste to a centralized facility to then process it is very inefficient, especially in a country like Australia. And so this idea of decentralization, decentralizing processing of that kind, which the Groterra technology enables, like, just has really good unit economics to it.

第二个商业洞察是：我们寻求的是真正循环解决这个问题（a），以及将解决方案分散部署到废物产生源头（b）。比如在悉尼酒店大堂、巴朗加鲁地下层或凯悦酒店，都设有专门处理厨房食物残渣的微型生物转化装置——既具备极高生态价值，又极具实用性，堪称完美案例。

And so that's kind of the second thing is a business model insight is something that we're looking for. So Olympia kind of, a, the idea of really circularizing this problem, b, the idea of, decentralizing and distributing the solution closer to where the waste is generated. So that could be, for example, like in, you know, a hotel foyer like in Sydney, at, you know, at Barangaroo down in the basement, there's a mib or, at the Hyatt, there's a mib for all the food waste that comes out of the kitchen. Fantastic solution, really high kind of, you know, ecological credentials and, you know, very practical. So, just a really good story now.

这确实是个漫长过程。作为我们基金2020年的首笔投资，GoTerra如今在单位经济效益方面已渐入佳境。他们需要打通两端：既要掌握废物来源，又要对接蛋白质需求方。供给养鸡场或农业企业的核心挑战在于必须确保供应量，这就引出了第三个关键点：何时能实现规模效应？

Obviously, that's a long time. It was our first investment, in fact, in the fund in 2020, and really from a unit economics point of view, GoTerra is really now hitting their straps. They had to sort of connect the two pieces, collecting the waste, we know where the waste is generated, but also coming all the way through to who wants the protein. The challenge on that side was if you're gonna supply to a chicken farm or to a agriculture outfit, you have to be able to provide volume. And so that's kind of that third piece is when do we get to scale?

令人振奋的是，GoTerra现在正迈向规模化的临界点，即将迎来单位经济效益真正爆发的阶段。

And the exciting thing with GoTerra now is they're really getting to that scale, and sort of coming up to that time when the unit economics are really starting to shine.

这就像平台商业模式——好比人们熟知的亚马逊或eBay，需要同时吸引买卖双方形成良性循环。

It's like a platform business because, like, you know, people would be familiar with, like, Amazon or eBay or, like, there's buyers and sellers, and you need the buyers to get the sellers and sellers to get the buyers.

没错。

Yeah.

本质上这就是在有机废物和蛆虫之间搭建的中介平台。对吧？确实如此。

This is kind of like, in the middle, there's, like, maggots and organic waste. Right? So Yeah. It's yeah.

是的，百分百同意。我认为在这方面它非常不传统。就像，别往盒子里看。不过，你说得对。

Yeah. 100%. I think it's it's it's very unconventional in that respect. It's like, just don't look inside the box. But, yes, you're right.

这就像是一个平台业务，而且现在有些项目是与市议会合作的，对他们来说能提供这项服务很棒。知道吗？我现在明白，那个我费劲分类的有机垃圾小桶，原来市议会能以真正生态、重要且负责任的方式处理，而我可以通过正确分类来参与。从这个角度看，确实是真正的平台技术。

It is like a platform business, and and, you know, so there are there are projects now with city councils, right, who, like, it's a fantastic service for them to be able to offer. You know? You I now know where that little tub of organics that I go to all the trouble of kinda, you know, putting off to the side, I now know that the council can take care of that in a way that's really ecologically, significant and and and responsible, and I can participate by properly separating, out my way. So in in that respect, yeah, a real platform technology.

这是个巨大的——我是说，我只是顺着你的话讲——但这确实是大事，因为就连我们东墨尔本的市议会也在发放越来越多的绿色垃圾箱，还有有机垃圾箱等等。对消费者也有很多激励措施参与这个大趋势。而这正是核心所在——如何大规模实现，这很酷。是的。

It's a huge it's I mean, I don't I'm only kinda bouncing off you here, but it's a huge thing because, like, even in our council out of out of Eastern Melbourne, they're sending out more and more, you know, green waste bins, and then there's, like, the organic waste bins, and then there's this and that. And there's so many incentives for consumers as well to get involved in this this big trend. And this is kind of right at the heart of it. Like, how do we do that at scale, which is kinda cool. Yep.

萨里，你之前提到Swarm Farm，这本身就很有趣。我真正感兴趣的是你最初如何发现这个想法，以及你认为——如果你对持有这家公司及其股份有理论依据的话——它未来会如何发展？

Sari, you did mention Swarm Farm before, which is fascinating in itself. Probably what I'm really interested in is, like, how you've initially found that idea. And then also, like, what do you think? Like, if you have a thesis for holding onto that business and the stake in it, like, do you think it goes from here?

我们其实是在筹办基金前通过咨询业务认识安德鲁和乔西的。他们是典型例子：在农业领域和新兴机器人领域极具信誉，但对如何为这类企业融资——比如找银行还是上市——完全没概念。

So we met Andrew and Jossi actually when we before we raised the fund when we had the advisory business. And they they were a good example where they had like extreme credibility in the agriculture space, in the in the emerging robotics space. But the sort of familiarity with how you'd raise capital for a business like that, you know, do you go to your bank? Do you like put it on the stock exchange? Like, how how what even is that?

这对他们和许多创业者都不明显。我们在成立基金前通过咨询业务结识并合作过。当基金筹备启动时，我们停止了咨询合作，将他们列入投资名单。他们算是早期项目，我们在2020年投资了他们，那是我们最初几笔投资之一。

Wasn't obvious to them and many other aspiring founders. And so we had met them in our advisory business and actually done some work with them before we had the fund. And then as it looked like we were gonna be able to raise the fund and get that off the ground, we stopped work with them on the advisory side and sort of put them in the funnel for investment. So again, they were early. We backed them in 2020, one of our first couple investments back then.

人们常对Swarm Farm说'会被约翰迪尔收购'之类的话。有可能，但这绝非他们或我们的目标。因为Swarm Farm通过自主解决方案实现的许多突破，恰恰与现有设备制造商的利益相悖。比如经销商网络、售后服务盈利模式——Swarm Farm坚持直接面向种植者销售。

And think the common one that people say for SwarmFarm is like, oh, well, they'll get bought by John Deere. Like, they'll get bought by one of these existing equipment companies. And I think that's look. It it's possible, but it's definitely not the aspiration for for them or for us in that sense in that a lot of the things SwarmFarm is unlocking with the autonomous solutions just are counter to the incentives of some of the existing OEMs or original equipment manufacturers in that space. And so things like a dealer network, things like how you monetize support are things SwarmFarm say we wanna sell direct to growers.

我们希望帮助区域经济中的农民能够自行维修设备。我们希望在提供这种高端服务的同时，减少中间环节的利润抽成。对他们而言，我认为有几种可能性。比如，他们可以建立一个大型独立成功的企业，最终上市并成为多种技术的赋能者，特别是因为我提到的那个生态系统——他们实际上为其他硬件和软件开发者在他们的‘应用商店’上构建产品打开了机会。你可以想象这类公司会非常成功。

We wanna enable farmers in regional economies to fix their own equipment. We wanna deliver this sort of premium offering without a lot of the existing margin takers along the way. And so for them, I think there's a couple possibilities. Like, they could build a large independent successful business and end up, you know, listing and becoming, you know, a enabler of multiple technologies, especially because of that ecosystem that I mentioned where they're really opening up the chance for other developers in hardware and software to build onto their app store, so to speak. And so you can imagine seeing companies that do that kind of thing be very successful.

这是其中一种情况。我认为另一种情况是，我们看到供应链其他环节——精准农业供应商、设备内置技术提供商以及农具制造商——在这一领域进行更多整合与收购。你可以设想战略收购，他们可能成为某种附件的市场渠道，或是一系列附件的互补产品。我认为这两种情况都有可能，我们看到了该业务的巨大潜力。他们刚在十月初宣布完成了B轮融资。

So that's sort of one case. I think another one is we're seeing more sort of roll ups and acquisitions in this space from other parts of the supply chain, from the precision ag providers, the technology that sits in the equipment and from folks sort of in the equipment manufacturing space that are building those implements. And so you could imagine strategic acquisitions where they're a channel to market for an attachment or they're a sort of complement to a series of attachments. So I think both cases are possible and we see a lot of potential for that business. They just raised a series b that actually got announced in early October.

所以对他们走过的历程感到非常兴奋，当然，也对他们的未来充满期待。

So really excited about sort of where where they've come from and, you know, obviously, where they're going.

是的，这真的很棒。我其实一直在思考精准农业。这里我要提到《克拉克森的农场》。我记得有个场景是他们买了台新拖拉机，然后试图弄明白怎么操作。

Yes. It's a really cool thing. I was actually thinking about the precision ag. And, I'm gonna throw back to the Clarkson Farm thing here. I remember there was a scene where they got a new tractor, and they were trying to figure out how it worked.

他们坐在里面，面对一堆GPS之类失灵的设备。当时我就想，自己能因工作乘飞机去不同城市是多么幸运。每次经过飞机驾驶舱时，我都庆幸有专业飞行员在——我可不知道怎么降落这玩意儿。但看到那些拖拉机时，我觉得还是他们来吧，我家农场的老拖拉机啥都没有，就是个老旧的柴油机吭哧吭哧地跑。

And they're sitting in there, and there's all these, like, GPS things and different stuff that wasn't working. And I was thinking to myself at the time, like, I'm pretty blessed to be able to fly a bit for my job and see different cities and stuff like that. And every time I walk past the cockpit in a plane, I'm like, oh, I'm glad the pilots are in there because I would not know how to land this thing. But when I looked at those tractors, I was like, better them than me because my old tractor on the farm had nothing. It was just an old diesel diesel chug along.

但这些新设备太不可思议了，里面嵌入的技术令人惊叹。莎拉你之前说的提醒了我们，农民其实是早期技术采用者，他们真的会投资这些技术。你能真切看到这一点，也理解为什么采用新技术以提高利润和效率如此重要。

But these new things are just incredible. Like, the the technology that's embedded in them. And when you said, Sarah, before that, like, it's like reminding us that farmers are early adopters and they really do invest in this technology. Like, you can actually see that and you can understand why there's that imperative to kind of adopt it, to improve margins, to improve efficiencies. It's so so important.

现在不知道谁想接我手头最后一个话题——矫形器业务，非常有意思。你们俩谁都可以直接接过这个话题。

Now, don't know who kinda wants to tackle this last one that I got here, but orthotic, Fascinating business. So either one of you just jump at me with this one.

是的。这其实回答了你关于客户来源的问题。他们是通过网站找到我们的。所以我们之前并不认识他们，也不是熟人推荐。

Yeah. So they're this is actually to to your question about sourcing. They came through the website. So we didn't know them. They weren't a warm referral.

他们在我们网站上填写了表格，最终我们达成共识并进行了投资。这可能是因为我们的内容，或者是因为我们保持中立态度，总之这是个不错的结果。他们利用纸浆和造纸工业的副产品——一种叫做木质素的材料，与其他材料混合制成涂层。想象一下，就像一批液体被涂在纸张和纸板制品上。比如你外带咖啡杯、外卖餐盒、冷冻鸡块或海鲜的包装盒，甚至是亚马逊快递箱里的填充纸。

They filled out the form on our website, and we ended up getting to conviction and ultimately investing. And so whether that's because of the content, whether that's like lack of bias, but that was a cool outcome. And so they use materials from that are byproducts of the pulp and paper industry, material called lignin, along with some other materials to formulate what is a coating. And so think of like a, you know, a batch of sort of liquid that would go on to paper and board products. So if you think of like the coffee cup that you get when you get a takeaway cup or you get like takeaway food or you buy a box of, frozen chicken nuggets or frozen seafood or you just have paper in your Amazon delivery box.

我们使用的所有纸张、纸浆和纸板通常都涂有蜡层。这样就能防水并满足性能要求，而不仅仅是裸露的纸张。现在，这种新型涂层可以替代蜡。蜡涂层的一个问题是它不利于纸张的最终处理。

So all the paper and pulp and cardboard that we use, it's often coated with wax. And so that's so that it's resistant to water and the sort of performance stacks up. It's not just paper exposed to the elements. Now, orthotics coating is a replacement for wax. And one of the challenges with wax is that it's not the end of life for that paper.

它不可回收、不能再浆化或堆肥。蜡涂层虽然具有这些功能优势，但意味着材料最终无法灵活再利用以满足可持续发展目标。而这种新型涂层就是替代方案。就他们目前进展而言，算是我们投资组合中较新的项目，投资时间较近，他们仍在消除技术风险。

It's not recyclable, repulpable, or compostable. And so the wax coating has all those functional benefits, but means the end of life isn't isn't as flexible to to reuse that material to meet sustainability targets. And so orthotic has a replacement for that. And I guess to the the sort of like where they're up to, they're kind of the earlier in our portfolio. We invested in them more recently, and they're still removing the technical risk.

他们仍在验证其涂层的功能特性是否符合客户所有要求：施工时具有适当耐热性、足够防水性、装箱时不会太粘等等。随着这些验证推进，客户兴趣日益增长——如果能获得经济性相当（并非绿色溢价）且具备终端处理优势的解决方案，只要满足所有功能需求，这确实很有吸引力。他们目前正处于验证阶段，之后将进行规模化。

So they're still proving out that the functional properties of their coating meet all the requirements of customers, that it has the right heat tolerance when you're applying it, that it has the right water resistance, that it's not too sticky when you have to stack the boxes together, like all of those properties of how it stacks stacks up that that really applies. And as they're progressing through that, they're getting more and more customer interest to say, if we can have a solution that is has as good of economics because it's not meant to be like a green premium, we're only doing this because it's good for the world, but it also has these characteristics around end of life, then that sounds really compelling as long as, you know, it meets all those functional requirements. And so that's kind of what they're in the middle of is is proving that out and then scaling it up.

你们这种思考方式很酷。先解决技术风险，再考虑商业等其他方面。不知道你们是否有同感——每次我拿起外带杯时都在想：走过垃圾桶时，这该扔回收桶还是普通垃圾桶？你们知道正确答案吗？因为我真的不知道，但这问题随处可见。

It's cool how you think about that. That's a technical risk, then you have, like, all the commercial and all that sort of other stuff. And I don't know if you guys can relate to this, but every time I pick up one of those takeaway cups and I'm like, I don't know when I walk past the bin, does this go in the recycling bin, or does this go in the the general, or does like, do you guys know the answer to that? Because I don't I don't know the answer. I don't know the answer, but I see it everywhere.

对吧？没错，这确实是个问题。

Right? Yeah. It's a thing.

我是说，有时候这类事情会出现一些我称之为反常结果的情况——不幸的是，出于追求理论上至少可堆肥的包装形式，最终却因流向错误的地方，反而把问题推向了更下游。所以解决方案越灵活越好。因为显然可回收与可堆肥截然不同，比如如果包装内壁沾有食物残渣，这就形成了棘手难题。对吧？这不像可乐罐那么简单明了。

I mean, sometimes with these things, there are, you know, what I refer to as sort of perverse outcomes that that unfortunately, in a in a desire to go to a kind of packaging that in theory is compostable at least, but they end up kind of being streamed in the wrong place, and so it just sort of pushes the problem further downstream. So, you know, the more flexibility these solutions have, the better. So kinda because obviously recyclable is very different to compostable, and like if it's coated if it's got food kind of stuck to the inside of it, you know, like so there are wicked problems in that way. Right? Like, it it it isn't just as simple as, like, your Coke can it's pretty clear.

只要把饮料喝光，我们都知道该怎么处理。但涉及食物包装时，情况就复杂多了。

As long as you're drunk, everything out of it, like, we know where that goes. With food, it does get a lot more complicated.

抱歉，莎拉，你想说点什么吗？我刚刚

Sorry. Sarah, you wanna say something? I was

正要补充一点。我们之前讨论过这类企业的资本密集度问题，我认为Orthotics就是个典型案例——我们看到许多包装公司采用这种模式：先打造出可行产品并获得市场需求，然后通过建设大型生产设施来满足客户的最低订单量。于是他们就需要700万或2000万美元来建造下一个工厂，声称届时就能承接所有订单需求。

just gonna say yeah. Was just gonna say one more thing. Like, we we talked before about, the capital intensity of these businesses, and I think Orthotics is really good example where we see a lot of packaging companies, but the whole model is, well, you know, we've built this thing that works and we've got demand for it. And so if we build a facility where we can produce a lot more of it, then we can meet the minimum order quantities for our customers. And so we just need $7,000,000 or $20,000,000 to build the next facility, and then we'll have all this demand.

这其实很难实现。市场需求真的存在吗？你又拿不到包销合同。我们欣赏Orthotic的地方在于，他们研发的配方能利用现有基础设施——借助他人的设备完成纸张涂层加工，使用别人的生产线进行堆叠等下游工序。

It's a really tough ask. Right? Like, is the demand really there? Well, you can't get an offtake contract. And so what we really like about Orthotic is they've built the formulation and thought about it to use existing infrastructure so they can use other people's equipment to do the put coating it on the paper, other people's equipment to do the like stacking of the paper, like all the things they need to do downstream.

他们不必自建重资产工厂。正如你提到的单位经济效益，这虽仍是实体领域的技术创新，但他们无需构建完整生产链就能实现规模化。这对我们很有吸引力。

They don't have to build their own capital intensive facility. And so as something we look forward to your point about unit economics, it's sort of it's still a technical innovation in the physical world, but they don't need to do all the pieces of production to be able to get it to scale. And so that's quite appealing to us.

我想最后问几个关于Tenacious Ventures投资组合的问题。你提到Ethotic处于技术发展阶段，能否简单说明这类公司的规模以及你们通常的投资金额范围？

I wanna just ask some final questions around, like, the portfolio and how you bring it together at Tenacious Ventures. Is you mentioned, like, Ethotic is kind of in that technical stage. Like, can you give us a sense of, like, how big are these companies and how big are the check sizes that y'all write for these companies, like, in simple terms?

所以规模相对较小，我想对于大多数听众的预期来说。我们的第一只基金是3500万美元，投资了14家公司。我们会持续跟进投资，因此在每家公司投入的资金从大约50万美元到400或500万美元不等，具体取决于它们所处的发展阶段以及我们跟投的金额。

So relatively small, I imagine, for what most folks listening are are thinking about. So we our first fund was $35,000,000. We invest in 14 companies. And, again, we sort of follow on. So we have between sort of half a million dollars and up to, you know, 4 or $5,000,000 in any one company depending on where they're at in that stage and how much we followed on.

但通常，当他们首次融资时，金额可能在200万到600万美元之间。我们可能会投入100万或150万美元，然后与其他投资者共同参与。这是首轮投资，之后他们可能会继续融资，比如600万到1200万，再到1200万到2500万，逐步推进。

But generally, the first time they're going out to raise money, they're raising probably between 2 and $6,000,000. And we might write, you know, a million, a million and a half of that round and then have other investors come in alongside us. So that's sort of the first check and then, you know, they move on from there to raise, you know, maybe six to 12 and 12 to 25 and and sort of go from there.

那么如果我想和你们一起投资，你们接受的投资者类型是怎样的？比如，你们接受私人投资者吗？或者像我们这样的节目听众，是否适合与你们合作投资？

So then if I was wanting to invest with you guys, how like, who are the types of investors? Like, do you take, like, private investors? Do you take, like, you know, just people listening to the show? Are they the are we the type of people that would invest with you?

我们确实有个人投资者参与。风险投资这类投资通常面向机构或成熟投资者。有时我们会直接沟通，有时他们通过财富顾问介入。当然，作为合理资产配置策略的一部分，在获得专业建议后，他们会直接投资基金。我们行业专项基金的优势在于，它既是科技领域、明确属于风投，又聚焦农业食品，因此具有一定的非相关性。所以，如果投资者与顾问规划投资组合时，会有多重理由认为这是明智之选。

I mean, the the we we absolutely have, you know, kind of individual investors. The the, class of investment that that would be venture capital is is, obviously wholesale and sophisticated kind of investor. So, you know, sometimes we will, you know, have communication directly there, sometimes they will come through a wealth adviser, but but but absolutely, you know, as part of a sensible allocation strategy that they're probably getting advice over, then, you know, they will direct direct, you know, invest in the fund. I mean, think the you know, one of the advantages, if you like, of, our sector specific fund is, like, it's sort of tech, it's definitely VC, but also it's ag and food, and so there's sort of an uncorrelated, element to it as well. So, again, if someone was thinking about sort of portfolio construction with their adviser, there might be, you know, a a number of reasons, why it would make sense.

我们的投资者群体包括机构投资者、家族办公室、高净值个人以及自主管理的养老基金。配置理由可以非常多样化。我们珍视与部分有限合伙人的紧密关系，其中一些本身就是活跃的农场主，这种共生关系非常宝贵——我们向他们学习，他们也能提前了解即将应用的技术。与农业食品体系有联系的人士，自然也是理想的有限合伙人。

I mean, there is a range that we have institutional investors, have family officers, we have high net worth individuals, you know, people's self managed super funds. The allocation reason can, can be pretty wide and varied. One of the great things about like, we we love having close relationships with some of our LPs, and some of our LPs are active farmers, and so there's a fabulous kind of symbiosis there where, you know, we learn a lot from them. They obviously get potentially kinda see what's happening before it's quite ready for them to use. So people who are connected with the Agri Food system as well Oh, that would also make make for great limited partners.

他们会非常热衷，因为既能洞察行业趋势，又能早期试用产品。这种资源对接至关重要，而且我们的听众中有很多这类人群。

They would love it because they get to see where their industry is going and also to maybe try it. Right? Like, to be a use case early days. So connecting those dots is so important. And there's a lot of people that listen to this show.

我常惊讶于RAS社区中，许多人不仅对这些投资有浓厚兴趣，还拥有可支配资金。很多听众拥有大量房地产或商业资产，处于准家族办公室阶段却不自知。他们可支配资产往往达到500万到1500万美元。

I'm always surprised in the RAS community how many people, like, have a really strong appetite for these, but also have the the funds available. There's a lot of people that listen to these shows that have, like, a lot of property wealth. They have a lot of business wealth in a formal life. And they're at that kind of mini family office stage, and they don't really realize it. You know, they've got 5 to 10 to $15,000,000 of disposable assets.

他们在想，是啊，我可以投资ETF和指数基金，可以做股票这类投资。但还有什么其他选择呢？今年我们特别关注私募市场，这绝对是最激动人心的领域，而且对澳大利亚消费者和投资者来说也最贴近实际，因为你们正在做的事情和支持的方向。这非常有趣。

And they're thinking, well, yeah, I can do my ETFs and my index funds, and I can do all these types of things, my stocks. But what else is there? And we talk a lot about private markets in particular this year. And this is definitely at the most exciting end, and it's at the end where it's probably most relatable to the Australian consumer, Australian investor because of what you guys are doing and what you're supporting. So it's super interesting.

我会在节目备注里放上链接，包括播客链接和你之前提到的联系方式表格，Sarah，无论是创始人还是投资者都可以联系。我会把所有信息放在备注里，因为你们涉足的领域非常令人兴奋，而且做得非常出色。我可能还有一个问题要问你。这个问题更像是，你知道，有时农业科技会像科幻小说一样疯狂，比如想象农场上的机器人工作者这类场景。

I'll put links in the show notes, by the way, to the podcast, to the form that you mentioned, Sarah, before about how people get in touch, whether they're founders or investors. I'll put all of that in the show notes because it's a really exciting place that you're playing in and you're doing it really well. I probably got one more question for you. And this is more just like, you know, we sometimes it's kinda crazy, but sometimes ag tech can be the stuff of science fiction. Like, you can kind of imagine, like, robotic workers on farms and all these types of things.

你们离这些如此之近。所以我想问问你们每个人，能否描绘一个未来愿景，比如像登月计划那样的远大目标，有什么是你们觉得‘哇，这真的很令人兴奋’的事情？什么是你们认为代表未来，或可能成为未来的方向？不知道，也许可以从你开始，Matthew。

And you guys are so close to this. So maybe I I just wanted to ask each of you, like, you could paint a vision of the future of, like, what could be, like, moonshot style, what it what's what's something that's always, like, you're like, oh, that's really exciting. What's something that's, like, that's the future of this, or it could be the future of this? And I don't know. Maybe we can start with you, Matthew.

比如，那是什么？

Like, what what is that?

是的。对我来说，我们投资组合中的一家公司Infund1叫Jupiter Ionics，他们是莫纳什大学的衍生企业。大家都知道作物需要肥料，氮是核心元素。他们的技术概括来说，就是利用阳光、空气和水直接合成氨，可用作肥料。

Yeah. I mean, for me so one of our portfolio companies, Infund1 is a company called Jupiter Ionics, and they are a spinout of Monash University. Everyone knows that, you know, crops need fertilizer. Nitrogen is is is the core element there. They have a technology that at a high level basically can take sunlight, air, and water, and create ammonia directly, can be used, as a fertilizer.

这简直就是魔法。想象几个集装箱和一堆太阳能板，就能生产出所需的肥料。当然这其中存在大量技术风险，要突破现有化学定律，但如果成功就太神奇了。一个小镇可以设立站点，生产所需的氨——氨还能用作燃料和其他用途。就宏观层面而言，这既是惊人技术，又能对区域经济产生重大影响，我认为这非常令人兴奋。

And so it's it's literally magic. You know, imagine a couple of shipping containers and a bunch of solar panels and just being able to create as much fertilizer as you need. Now there's a whole heap of technical risk there trying to bend and twist the laws of visiting chemistry, but if it works, it's amazing. Like, know, a small regional town could have a depot and and basically could be able to be to produce as much ammonia, and obviously ammonia can be used as a fuel and a whole bunch of other things. So, like, in terms of really big picture stuff that, you know, both is incredible technology, but also could have really significant kind of economic, regional economic impact, then I think that's that's a super exciting thing.

哇，这就像在WiFi出现前想象它一样。这东西就像凭空出现的，对吧？没错。

Wow. It's kind of like imagining Wi Fi before it was a thing. Like, this thing just kinda comes out of the air and Correct. Know? Correct.

这也太疯狂了。太疯狂了。莎拉，我不知道你是否有任何想法，但如果有的话，我很想听听。

That that's wild. That's wild. Sarah, I don't know if you have any, but if you do, I'd love to hear them.

是的。对我来说，特别是关于红肉消费有很多争论，从环境和气候角度来看我们是否应该食用动物。然而也有一整套论点认为，农民和消费者的生计都依赖于此。所以我非常喜欢我们所做的，因为技术可以开始打破这些权衡，我们不再进行非黑即白的辩论，比如肉好或肉坏，而是可以创造技术，从环境角度来看牛不再有相同的足迹，因为基因改良速度大大加快。所以我们投资组合中有一家名为Embryo的公司，能快速改良牛的基因。

Yeah. For me, there's, you know, a lot of debate around red meat consumption in particular and should we eat animals from an environmental and and climate perspective. And yet there's also a whole argument that says, like, livelihoods are are based on this in both farmers and consumers. And so I really love what we do because the technologies can start to break some of these trade offs where we're no longer having these black and white debates of, like, meat good, you know, meat bad and can actually create technologies where the cows no longer have the same kind of footprint from an environmental perspective because the genetics are improved so much faster. So we have a company in our portfolio called Embryo that rapidly improves the genetics of cattle.

而且有新兴证据表明可以选择抗甲烷生成特性。这样它们就不再产生甲烷了。所以对农民来说有韧性和盈利性的好处。然后，对消费者来说也消除了这个争论。Orthotic和包装也是如此，goTERRA和废物处理也是如此。

And there's emerging evidence around selecting for traits like anti methanogenic properties. And so they're not producing methane anymore. So benefits to farmers in terms of resilience and profitability. And then, you know, taking away this debate for consumers. Same thing with orthotic and the packaging, same thing with goTERRA and the waste.

所以我真正热衷的是在不牺牲经济性的前提下给人们更好的选择，我们可以用钱投票，但不是那种‘哦，它更贵，我们必须为此买单’的情况，而是因为它也有经济意义，我们看到这方面有巨大潜力。

And so that's something I'm really passionate about is giving people better choices without a compromise on economics where we can, you know, vote with our dollar, but it's not this sort of, oh, it costs more. We have to pay for it. It's because it makes economic sense too, and we just see so much potential for that.

我真的很喜欢这些想法和你支持的企业。我相信未来几年内会有第二期播客，但我知道你们俩超级忙。非常感谢你们抽出时间与我们分享这些见解。再次提醒，你们有播客，如果听众现在就想了解更多，我可以指引他们去听。链接会在播客播放器中，点击订阅几期吧。

I just love these ideas and these businesses that you back. I'm I'm sure there's a round two podcast in in the works for some time over the next few years, but I know you two are super busy. And I really appreciate you taking the time to share some of your time with us and give us these insights. Again, you've got the podcast which I can direct people to if they're hungry for this type of thing now. That will be in your podcast player, so go and click that link and subscribe to a few episodes.

你们正在做的事情真的非常令人兴奋，我祝你们一切顺利。再次感谢你们抽空加入我

Like, it's it's it's really exciting what you guys are doing, and I wish you all the best with it. And once again, thanks for taking the time to join me

的节目。谢谢，Hapes。干杯，亲爱的。

on the show. Thanks, Hapes. Cheers, hon.

好的。谢谢邀请我们。

Yeah. Thanks for having us.