丽莎·埃尔德里奇

我说，是的，我确实想成为一名化妆师，而且我要成为世界上最顶尖的化妆师之一。而她却说，我觉得你该收拾行李离开了。我回应道，我也这么认为。事情就这样结束了。

I said, yes, I do want to be a makeup artist, and I'm gonna be one of the top makeup artists in the world. And she just said, I think you should get your bags and go. And I said, I think I should as well. And that was that.

大家好，欢迎回到《美丽人生》播客，我是玛德琳·斯宾塞，每期都会邀请一位嘉宾来聊聊他们的生活经历，以及他们与父母之间的关系。距离上期节目发布已有一段时间，对此我深表歉意，同时也衷心感谢那些一直追问新节目何时上线的听众们。这段时间我忙于写作和审稿工作，不得不频繁出差——虽然这算不上什么苦差事——但我确实很忙碌，同时也一直在思考这个播客的内容。因此能推出这期新节目，我实在感到非常非常开心。今天的嘉宾是杰出的化妆师、作家兼YouTuber丽莎·埃尔德里奇。我仰慕丽莎多年，能邀请她来节目让我兴奋不已，毫不意外她也是听众呼声最高的嘉宾之一。很高兴她能来分享她的故事，聆听她如何成为今天的丽莎·埃尔德里奇，以及她在这个领域里展现出的惊人决心与专注，这些都令我受益匪浅。

Hello and welcome back to Beautiful Lives, the podcast in which I, Madeline Spencer, invite a guest to join me to talk about their life and to explore the relationship they've had with their parents along the way. So it's been a little while since I released the last draft of episodes and for that I can only apologise and also heartily thank those of you who kept asking when the next lot would be out and since we last spoke I've been incredibly busy with writing and reviewing which has meant I've had to travel an awful lot which I know isn't exactly a hardship but I've been busy and I've also been thinking about the podcast quite a lot so I'm really really pleased to be releasing these new episodes. So today's guest is the extraordinary makeup artist, author and YouTuber Lisa Eldridge. I've been a big fan of Lisa's for years and I was so excited to have her on the podcast and unsurprisingly she's one of the most requested guests to date and I'm so happy she could join me to talk through her story. I so enjoyed hearing how Lisa became the Lisa Eldridge and some of the different tales of how determined and single-minded she was in the field in which she would make her name.

本期我们将聊到她几位极具魅力的客户——确实都非常有意思，探讨丽莎作为资深专家所知的化妆品历史，以及她最钟爱的时代风格与灵感来源。我觉得这期节目特别适合在悠闲散步或卧床休息时聆听，丽莎那被许多人认为具有ASMR特质的标志性嗓音——我们在节目里也会稍作讨论——我个人完全认同这种说法，她的声音确实能抚慰人心。记得有次我在南非病得很重时...

On this episode we talk about a few of her fascinating clients and they really are very fascinating, about the history of makeup in which Lisa's a huge expert and about her favorite eras and inspirations. Now I think this is the episode to take with you on a nice long walk or while relaxing in bed listening to Lisa's famous voice which many consider has this ASMR quality. We talk a little bit about that in the episode. I definitely agree that it does. It definitely soothes me and there was a time that I was quite ill in South Africa.

后来我把这个故事告诉了丽莎，当时我唯一能做的就是看她的YouTube视频来放松，效果真的非常非常好。很高兴本期节目由英国现代护肤品牌Amly赞助，最近我特意前往萨塞克斯深入了解他们的产品，其蕴含的匠心与热忱令我惊叹不已。节目尾声我会再聊聊我最喜欢的产品，现在有请丽莎·埃尔德里奇。

I tell Lisa this story later on and all I could do really was watch her YouTube videos to chill out and it really, really worked. I'm really pleased that this episode is powered by the modern British skincare brand Amly So I went to Sussex to learn more about the products recently and I was blown away by how much thought and passion had gone into them. So I'll be back at the end of the episode to talk a little bit about my favorites. But until then, here's Lisa Eldridge.

和所有嘉宾一样，我想从你的童年开始聊起。你最初在新西兰生活，当时为什么会在那里？对那段幼年时光有什么记忆？

I'm going to start you as I start all my guests in your childhood. So you started life in New Zealand. So why were you there and what are your memories of that very early time in your life?

我出生在英格兰，但婴儿时期就去了新西兰。对当时居住的偏远环境有些鲜明记忆——海滩、门廊、自然风光。新西兰是个无与伦比的国家，美得令人窒息。记忆碎片里都是美好的郊游时光，绿色的原野和海滩。

So I was born in England but then I went to New Zealand really young when I was a baby. I have certain vivid memories sort of where we lived which was quite remote. The beach and sitting on the porch, nature. New Zealand is such an incredible country, I mean it's so beautiful. Little snippets of like beautiful days out and green fields and beaches really.

那你当时有当地口音吗？

And did you pick up the accent?

当然有。后来回到英格兰时，人们觉得我说话有点怪，甚至有人说我口音优雅——他们当时就是这么形容的。不过我觉得只是因为他们不熟悉这种口音罢了。

Absolutely, yeah. I know that when I came to England, people thought I spoke a bit strange. People thought I spoke posh, actually, that's what they used to say to me. But I think it was just because it was an accent, really.

现在很多人说——想必你经常听到——你的声音非常舒缓，看你化妆的视频有种ASMR般的体验。不知道这是否与你新西兰的生活经历有关？

A lot of people say now, I'm sure you hear this all the time, that your voice is very soothing and there's an ASMR equality to watching you do makeup. So I wonder if the different threads are in there somewhere, they're talking New Zealand somewhere.

在做YouTube之前我根本不知道ASMR是什么，直到观众们反复提起，我还纳闷'这到底是什么？'后来研究后才明白'原来如此，真有意思'。

I'd never even heard of ASMR until I started doing my YouTube and then people would say it and I was thinking what is this?' I never really understood what they meant until I researched it and then I was like 'okay, that's interesting'.

跟我们说说你慢悠悠去利物浦的旅程吧。你是乘船去的，花了多长时间？途中都做了些什么？

Tell us about your slow journey to Liverpool. You went on a ship, How long did it take? What were you doing?

好几个月呢。我们就是到处旅行，去了很多国家。我记得在斐济停留过，还去过其他不同的地方。我记得在船上上了个小学校，还记得每天早上11点的早茶时间——那是我最鲜活的记忆。

Months, yeah. We were just travelling around and visiting lots of countries. I remember being in Fiji and different places that we stopped at. And I remember I went to like a little school on the ship and I remember morning tea at 11:00 in the morning. That s my most vivid memory.

记得当时我其实得了麻疹，不得不在船舱里待了差不多一个半星期，挺奇怪的。类似这样的事。但我清楚记得跑到甲板上，看到所有桌子都摆好了11点的茶点，那些白桌布什么的，这个画面在我记忆里特别鲜活。还记得在斐济下船时的感受，被那些热情的人们迎接，到处都是鲜花，美妙的景色、声音、气味和体验。回想起来挺奇特的，但当时只觉得再平常不过。

I remember I had actually measles while I was on there and had to stay in the cabin for like a week and a half which was a bit weird. Things like that. But I do remember running up to the deck and seeing all the tables being set for 11AM tea and seeing all the white table cloths and that's such a vivid memory for me. I remember getting off the boat in Fiji and what that felt like and being greeted by all these incredible people and flowers and just wonderful sights and sounds and smells and experiences. Back, s all quite odd and like strange but at the time it just seemed quite normal.

是啊，读到这段时觉得真是非凡的经历。想着这么多不同国家的风物、气味、味道都装进一个小孩子的脑海里，肯定极大地丰富了你的想象力。

Yeah, it's quite an experience to have had when I read that. Was thinking what a loss to put in such a young mind, like all those different countries and the different textures and smells and tastes and everything, that really must have packed your imagination.

确实如此。这段经历点燃了我对世界的好奇心，让我渴望了解很多事物——对见闻、声音、信息永远充满饥渴。可以说它奠定了我的人生基调，让我始终对多样事物保持兴趣，这绝对源于那段日子，因为每天都是崭新的体验。

Yeah, no, it really did. I think that it definitely sparked my kind of passion for curiosity and wanting to know lots, you know, being very hungry and curious and hungry for sights and sounds and information and it kind of set me up really in life for being quite, I guess I like lots of different things all the time and I m sure it s from that period because it wasn t exactly, you know, it wasn't the same every day.

那么当你到达利物浦后见到了祖母。她是个光彩照人的人物吗？还是让你瞬间就觉得'哇，这就是我奶奶'那种类型？

So when you got to Liverpool, you met your grandmother. Now was she a glamorous figure or was she someone where you instantly felt, Oh wow, that's my grandmother?

祖母就是我的一切。她完全不讲究打扮，像我妈妈才是那种永远光鲜亮丽的人。奶奶更像个居家主妇，她的美容程序特别简单。

My grandmother was just everything to me. She wasn't glamorous at all. Like my mum is glamorous and always was. Granny was a lot more kind of mumsy. She had a really simple beauty routine.

她每天都重复同样的流程，而我妈妈则痴迷化妆、发型和时髦穿搭。但奶奶有很高的音乐素养——这正是我爱她的地方。我们总是一起弹钢琴，经常二重奏，我小时候总在唱歌，因为她教会我所有老歌，那些她童年时代的乐谱。我学了好多音乐厅式的老派歌曲。每天早上我基本都是在奶奶的钢琴声中醒来的，她还常给我写小诗。

She's the same thing every day. Whereas my mum was really into makeup, hair, clothes, being super glamorous. So yeah, but my grandmother was really musical and that's what I loved about her. So we used to play the piano together, we used to do duets all the time, constantly singing as a child because she taught me all the old songs because she had all the sheet music from when she was a child. I learned so many music hall kind of old fashioned songs and and every morning I basically woke up to the sound of my granny playing the piano and she used to write me little poems and poetry and things like that.

我们就像黄金搭档。还有套秘密语言，是基于音阶的——会用唱歌般的调子交流。她真的很有音乐天赋。

So we were like such a double act. We had a secret language which was based on kind of, you know, a scale so we used to have this sing song language that we used to use with each other. She was really musical.

我父亲也极具音乐细胞，可惜完全没遗传给我。但音乐确实是把钥匙——既能打开历史之门，也能开启情感与思维。想必这又为你的行囊增添了艺术发现与鉴赏力吧。

My dad's very musical. It completely skips me but you grow that appreciation for music and music's a key as well. It's a key into history and it's a key into emotions and mindset. So it's another one of those ones that I imagine filled your suitcase again with this sort of discovery and the appreciation of the arts again.

是啊，我甚至曾经特别喜欢翻看那些东西，因为她从她母亲那里继承了不少乐谱，她母亲也会弹钢琴。所以追溯回去，她以前有所有的乐谱，我也爱看那些乐谱，因为上面有各种插画和歌手的形象，我还学会了所有那些维多利亚时期音乐厅歌曲的歌词之类的。对，我就是痴迷那些老乐谱，它们太特别了。

Yeah, and I even used to love looking at all because she had from her mother who played the piano as well. So going back, back, back, back. She used to have all the sheet music and I love looking at the sheet music as well because it had all the illustrations and, like, the singers on and I learned all the words to, like, Victorian sort of music hall songs and things. Yeah, I just loved all that old sheet music. It was extraordinary.

因为它很有戏剧性，所以对孩子很有吸引力。我记得有首歌，观众应该跟着喊的，有人常唱这首歌。'我在她生日那天遇见了她'，大概是二十年代那种傻乎乎的音乐厅歌曲。那是我最早学会的歌之一，非常戏剧化，有点像哑剧，你知道，七岁的我会觉得那超级搞笑又精彩。

Because it was theatrical, so it was appeal to a child. I remember, like, there used to be a song, like, that was like, like, the audience was supposed to shout out, someone used to sing this song. I met her bandy birthday. Was like a silly kind of music hall song from probably, like, the twenties. So that was one of the first songs that I learnt and it was very theatrical and very kind of pantomime y and, you know, my seven year old would have thought that was hilariously funny and brilliant.

不过我现在可不会听这种歌了。

I wouldn't listen to it now though.

所以你对化妆的兴趣是在你发现妈妈少女时期藏在旧卧室的化妆品后激发的。那具体是那些化妆品的什么特质吸引了你？如果你妈妈是个爱打扮的时髦女性，为什么偏偏是那批旧化妆品让你如此着迷？

So your interest in makeup was sparked when you found your mum's teenage stash in her old bedroom. So what was it about that makeup in particular? If your mom was a glamorous woman who was dressing up, why is it that that stash really sparked your interest and held you captivated?

我想可能是因为那个年代感，她盒子里那些化妆品的风格。她当时用的化妆品看起来比较新潮但普通，而那个盒子里的东西更有60年代玛丽官风格，还有很多Coty的产品。那些颜色更鲜艳，质地黏稠得惊人。包装可能也比较童趣，所以比当时她用的那些更精致的化妆品更吸引我。

I think because it was probably the era, like the kind of makeup that she had in that box. The makeup that she was wearing at that time seemed quite new and a little bit more basic, like mundane whereas the makeup that she had in that box was a lot more 60s and kind of Mary Quant and lots of this Coty stuff. It was probably just more out there really. The colors were brighter, the textures were kind of gloopy and incredible. The packaging, I think, was probably quite childlike, so it probably appealed to me a bit more than what she was using at the time, which is probably a lot more sophisticated by then.

因为我本来就痴迷颜色。现在回想起来，天啊，我那时对颜色多着迷。我用蜡笔画画时，什么黄中带红、红中带黄、橙中带黄、黄中带橙...我对这些色调着魔。所以当我发现这个装着'化妆蜡笔'的盒子，里面有我迷恋的小色块时...

Because I was obsessed with color anyway. Now I look back, I think, God, you know, I was so into color. And I used to, with crayons, you know, like the yellow red and the red yellow and the orange yellow and the yellowy orange. I mean, I was obsessed with all of that. And so when I found this box that kind of had crayons in it, I mean, makeup crayons, it had little pops of, like, colours that I was so into.

这类东西对我来说就像是蜡笔套装的延伸。我喜欢画画，总画人脸，所以就开始用它们来画。这个纸板盒有分层抽屉，装满了化妆品，里面的每件东西都让我痴迷。

Anything like that I just thought was like an extension to my crayon kit really. And I liked drawing and always drawing faces and things so I just started using that to draw with. This box, it was like a cardboard y box. It had the drawers in, it was just full of makeup. And everything in there I was obsessed with.

我经常拿出来玩，再收回去。我喜欢把油乎乎的色块弄成小圆圈，滴上水后它们会像宝石般凝结。那些颜色和我的蜡笔不同又相似，黏腻的质地、珠光效果...简直美梦成真，那是我当时见过最棒的颜料盒。

So I used to get it out all the time, play with it, put it back in there. Used to have a thing where I'd put little circles of the colours because they were so oily and then I used to put a little drop of water on them and they would settle as like jewels. So yeah, I just loved the colours. The colours were just different to my Crayola but it was sort of similar and the waxy textures, the gloopy textures, the pearl, all of that was just like a dream come true. It was like the best paint box I'd ever seen in my entire life at that point.

后来有人送了你一本舞台化妆的书，这让你把两件事联系起来了。

And then you were given a gift of a book on stage makeup. So that made you sort of put two and two together.

我总说喜欢妈妈的旧化妆品，可能妈妈跟别人提过'丽莎喜欢玩旧化妆品'这种奇怪的话。我还常说喜欢画画，长大要当艺术家。结果有人告诉我'当艺术家赚不到钱，但可以做商业美术师'。

Well I used to say that I love this makeup, my mum's old makeup. So I think maybe, I don't know if my mum had kind of said to people, oh Lisa likes playing with old makeup, which is random. And then I used to say, I like drawing. When I grow up, I think I'll be an artist. And then somebody said to me, Oh, if you're an artist, you can't ever make any money, but you can be a commercial artist.

我甚至不知道那是什么意思。13岁时，我得到了一本关于舞台化妆的书。我本来想说它可能现在还放在我床边，是的，我想是的。这本书让我着迷，因为它包含了我热爱的一切。书中有一位演员，他用化妆把自己变成了各种不同的角色。

I didn't even know what that meant. When I was 13, I got this book on stage makeup. I was going to say it's probably next to my bed still, yes, think it is. And it was fascinating because it was everything that I loved. It had one actor and he made himself up as all these different characters.

他可能只有五支油彩棒和一些零碎工具。然后他就能把自己变成这些令人难以置信的莎士比亚戏剧角色。他能让自己看起来更老、更年轻。我当时就想，哇，这就是我喜欢的一切。他的面孔，我热爱面孔，我喜欢这个。

And he had probably like five grease paint sticks and a couple of other bits and pieces. And then he would make himself into all these incredible Shakespearean characters. He would make himself look older, look younger, look. And I just thought, wow, that's everything that I like. His faces, I loved faces, I love that.

还有他的化妆、绘画、彩色棒。我太喜欢这些了。这就是全部了。我没有其他想法，只有这个。

And his makeup, drawing, sticks of color. I loved those. And that was it. I didn t have any other ideas. I just had that.

所以我就想这就是我要做的事，我必须尝试去做。现在回想起来，我觉得天啊，当时这么想有点疯狂。尤其是我没有任何人脉，不认识那个行业的任何人，也没有人能帮我。可以说这是个大胆的举动。但我过去常常对人说，我要成为一名化妆师。

So I just thought that s what I m going to do and I have to just try and do it. Now I look back and I think, God, that was a bit kind of wild to think that. Especially when I didn't really have any contacts and didn't know anyone in that industry or anyone to help me. It was a bit of a bold move, should we say. But I just used to say to people, I'm going to be a makeup artist.

生日后的第二天我就去学校说，哦，我要成为一名化妆师。但我记得，比如她数学很差，数学老师试图让我理解。我说我觉得不需要学这个，因为我要成为化妆师，这些都用不上。我觉得不需要参加这个考试。

I went into school literally the next day after my birthday and I was like, Oh, I'm going be a makeup artist. But I remember, like, hers is terrible at maths and the maths teacher was trying to get me to understand it. And I said, I don't think I need to be doing this because I'm going to be a makeup artist and I'm not going need any of this. I don't think I need to sit for this exam.

我理解，我学英国文学时也有同样的感觉，突然就变得很擅长。其他科目比如科学，我就觉得'看，我需要这个通过GCSE考试，但实际上用不上，所以别担心'。如果你有想做的事，你知道的。

I understand, I felt exactly the same when I doing English Literature and I suddenly got really good at it. Everything else was like when they were talking about the sciences, was like 'look, I need this to pass my GCSE's but really, not going to need it, so don't worry, you know if you've got something you're going to do'.

你某种程度上知道，是的，你有感觉，你心里感觉得到，而且你深信不疑。

You kind of know, yeah, you have a feel for it, you feel it in your gut and you're convinced.

如果让你想象15岁的丽莎·埃尔德里奇，你当时是什么样子？你染发吗？你是那种前卫打扮的人吗？给我们描绘一下你的形象吧。

If I asked you to conjure up Lisa Eldridge at the age of 15, what did you look like? Were you coloring your hair? Were you someone who was dressing in an avant garde way? Paint us a little picture of you.

嗯。可能主要是化妆吧。我以前不常化妆。我就是喜欢化妆。我化妆是为了娱乐，会用妈妈那些很贵的化妆品，放学回家后给自己化默片明星的造型。

Yeah. Probably just kind of makeup. I didn't used to wear makeup. I was just like I loved makeup. I used to put it on for entertainment and I used to put it on my mom's like really expensive makeup and I used to do like silent movie star looks on myself when I got home from school.

但我总是会全部洗掉。我绝不会化着那样的妆出门。发型方面，确实尝试过不同的发型。从没染过头发，说实话我妈不喜欢，也不会让我染发。连打耳洞都很困难。

But I used to wash it all off. I would never have gone out like that with that kind of makeup on. Hair wise, definitely kind of trying different hairstyles. Never really dyed my hair but yeah, my mum didn't like me, wouldn't have let me dyed my hair to be honest. It was even hard to get the ears pierced.

我那时会零零散散地买些Topshop之类的时髦衣服，你知道的，都不贵。所以15岁时我更关注衣服和发型，化妆反而少。我喜欢给别人化妆，帮朋友化，但自己倒不怎么化。

I would have been getting bits and pieces of really fashionable clothes, you know, from Topshop, I mean nothing expensive. So clothes and hair actually more so than makeup at 15. I would love to put it on other people, you know, I put makeup on other people, on friends, but I didn't really wear a lot myself.

我觉得那个年纪对化妆的享受分两种：一种是为了呈现某种形象，要么随大流要么尝试新风格——这年纪这么做很正常；另一种是纯粹享受化妆的艺术性。听起来你当时更像是为化妆本身而乐在其中，不是追求特定形象，而是探索'我能用这些化妆品玩出什么花样'，然后就彻底沉迷了。

I feel like there's two different kinds of enjoyment of makeup at that age. There's the one where you're doing makeup because you want to look a certain way and you're either conforming or you're trying things which is perfectly normal at that age or it's like the artistry of it and just enjoying that. And it sounds to me like you were enjoying makeup for makeup's sake almost. It wasn't about getting you to look a certain way, it was like, what can I do with this stuff? And then it was all over for you.

你化完就收工了。

You did it and then you were done.

对，确实如此。更多是当作艺术创作，像画画一样发挥创意。当然到了16、17岁我就开始在自己脸上试验各种颜色了，但15岁那会儿还没怎么给自己化妆。

Yeah, definitely. It was more about the artistry and a way to paint, you know, and be creative. I mean, of course, by the time I was 16, 17, then I was experimenting and putting on colours and doing my own face but 15, I don't think I kind of got into makeup on my own face at that stage.

后来有变化吗？

Did it change for you later?

当然有啊！后来我什么夸张妆容都敢试。那时痴迷Miss Selfridge，总捧着他们家目录惊呼'天啊这些妆容我全要试'，然后就照着目录里的彩妆造型一个个模仿。

Yeah, no, absolutely. And then I used to do like all kinds of mad makeup. I was obsessed with Miss Selfridge. So I used to get their catalogue and then I'd be like, oh my god, I want to do all of these looks. So I used to do all the looks from the Miss Selfridge catalogue, the makeup.

他们有个彩妆系列叫'亲亲就化妆'，我疯狂迷恋。经常跑去Miss Selfridge专柜买同款，目录里出现什么我就买什么。所以16岁左右吧，我开始浓妆艳抹了。

Kiss and makeup, it was called the makeup brand. I was obsessed with that. So I used to go down to Miss Selfridge and buy that makeup and put it on and like whatever was in the catalogue I'd be like I need that makeup. So by then, yeah, I'd got into makeup like 16 and I just used to wear loads of makeup.

这让我突然想起辣妹组合表演时的造型——90年代末她们画过那种湿漉漉的闪亮眼妆记得吗？我还傻乎乎用唇蜜模仿，幸亏不是真的灼热型唇蜜，但记得黏糊糊的液体流进眼睛...那些流行偶像的造型根本不是日常妆，在那个年纪尝试确实够大胆。

You've just sparked a really strong memory that I have of watching the Spice Girls perform and they used to wear that at one point in the late late 90s, they'd wear those very glossy eyes. Do you remember those when it was like wet eyes? Yeah, and I tried to do it with lip gloss, thank God it wasn't a proper burning lip gloss, but I just remember having gloop coming into my eyes because it's them very strong looks, those pop star looks and the myself, they're looks, they're not just pretty makeup and then trying those when you're that age is quite experimental.

就像你说的，看电视里《流行巅峰》节目时会被影响。有段时间我还迷老电影，年轻时特别痴迷1920年代、50年代和60年代的妆容，那时候就已经喜欢复古风衣服之类的东西了。

Yeah, I think like you said, just looking at on top of the pops or on television and I guess I'd been quite into old movies at one point as well, so when I was younger, so I was really into, like, I loved the idea of 1920s makeup and 1960s makeup and 1950s makeup. I liked already kind of vintage y type things already by then, vintage y clothes and things.

你是怎么从这些经历成长为专业彩妆师的？中间经历了哪些阶段？

How did you take all of that and become a makeup artist? What were the steps you took?

哦，这绝对不是一个一帆风顺的旅程，因为我当时并不真正清楚方向。我过去常常翻阅各种杂志，看我妈妈那些光鲜的杂志，尤其是《Vogue》，我会想：哇，这些人负责为这些惊艳封面化妆，我也想那样做。我记得看到玛丽·格林威尔这个名字时就想，她为封面做化妆，太厉害了，我也想做这个。但如果你问学校里的人，比如职业指导老师，我说想成为化妆师时，他们会觉得很好笑，会说‘也许你可以在BBC找到工作’之类的话。

Oh, it definitely wasn't a straightforward journey because I didn't really know, like, I used to look at all the magazines and you know, I'd kind of look at my mom's glossy magazines and things and, you know, I'd kind of look at Vogue magazine and I'd be like, wow, these people, like, do the makeup for all these incredible covers and I'd like to do that. And, you know, I remember seeing, like, Mary Greenwell, this name and thinking, she does the makeup for the covers and it s incredible. I want to do that. But if you asked anyone, like at school, was hilarious when I used to say, I want to be a makeup artist to the careers officer. Would like, well, I think you can get a job at the BBC.

所以这确实是一段漫长的摸索过程。毕业后，我朋友的爸爸有家美容院，我就在那里工作。我参加了一个美容疗法课程，本以为会学化妆，结果发现主要是学基础护理。虽然觉得至少能掌握些基本功，但还是不知道该如何实现梦想。

So it definitely was a long journey to really just to figure it out. And when I left school, my friend s dad had a beauty salon. So I was sort of working in there And I did a course in well, it was beauty therapy, really, but I thought we'd do makeup. And I just thought this was good because I'll just get the basics of it. Still didn't really know how I was going to figure it all out.

课程其实不错，我获得了高级面部护理和皮肤分析资质，但几乎没学到化妆。我想，干脆搬去伦敦吧。当时超模风头正劲，我总看杂志上的超模和玛丽·格林威尔的作品，心向往之，却不知从何入手。

And it was good. I used to go and do this course and I've got like some really top qualification in facials and skin analysis but we did hardly any makeup. I thought, well I better just move to London. The supermodels had had their thing, you know, I've been looking at magazines, seeing all these supermodels, seeing Mary Greenwell thinking that s what I want to do. But I don t really know how to do it.

于是我想，最好的办法就是直接去伦敦。但没钱，必须立刻找工作。后来在化妆品柜台上班，这反而挺好——既能适应伦敦生活，每月还有免费化妆品额度，让我慢慢攒齐了装备。

So I just thought, the best thing is I just go to London. But I didn t have the cash, so I needed to get a job straight away. So I got a job on a makeup counter and actually it was fine because it meant that I could settle into London, get used to it. They gave you free makeup because you could get an allowance every month. So it meant that I could sort of get quite a few bits together.

我先在House of Fraser的伊丽莎白雅顿，后来去了哈罗德百货的兰蔻专柜。那段时间很棒，我不仅充实了化妆箱，还开始找年轻摄影师合作练习。这份工作给了我喘息空间，而且能接触各种真实顾客的脸——不像模特那么单一。

I was at Elizabeth Arden in House of Fraser and then Lancome Harrods. That was quite a good moment because I was getting my kit together. I was starting to kind of figure out how to get myself kind of practicing with makeup, trying to find young photographers. So it just gave me a bit of breathing space. Plus it was really nice because I got to make up all kinds of faces.

来买化妆品的顾客都不是模特，这提供了绝佳经验。各种年龄、肤色的客人都有，我总是主动帮人化妆。柜台同事都知道我痴迷化妆，会抢着给所有人上妆。选择哈罗德的工作很有趣——因为他们有专门的化妆间。

So people that come in to shop for makeup, they re not models. So it s a really good experience. Every age group, every skin tone, people would come in and I was always the one to say, oh, do your makeup. Like everyone knew on the counter that I was like the makeup obsessed person and that I would want to do everyone s makeup. When I got to Harrods, it was quite funny because I took that job because they had a makeup room.

本来可以不用站柜台，只在后台化妆。但有一次我对顾客说‘这个色号我们没有，但那个柜台有’——因为我太熟悉各品牌产品了——结果被人举报。

Oh no. You could just do makeup, like not be on the counter, like be behind the scenes doing makeup. So I took that job and they used to book people in and I d be doing people s makeup. But I got caught actually saying to somebody, oh, we don t have your shade in this thing, but if you go to that counter, because I knew all the brands, obviously, because I so obsessed with makeup. So I'd be like, well I know that they've got this color on that counter or you've got that on there and I got caught saying that and I got what reported me.

哈，简直像《34街的奇迹》剧情对吧？

Yeah, it's very miracle on 30 Fourth Street, isn't it?

没错！他们向主管告状，那位穿着套装拎着手袋、像铁娘子撒切尔夫人般严厉的女主管找我谈话：‘听说你总把客人支到别的柜台？’我解释‘只在没有合适产品时才这样’。

Yeah, it was actually. They reported me to, like, the head person and she came in and was like Margaret Thatcher, like a battle axe in this suit with a handbag. And she came in and she said I need to have a word with you. And I was like Oh God, she said You've been sending people to other counters. I was like Well, only if we don't have exactly what they need.

总之她训斥了我一顿，反而激起我的叛逆。她指责我‘整天只顾着化妆，根本不站柜台’，我猜是有同事打小报告说‘她其实想当化妆师’。最后她直接问：‘这就是你的志向吗？’

Anyway, the longer and the shorter of it was that she kind of gave me a telling off and I just felt rebellious and she was apparently you are just doing makeup all day anyway. You are not really on the counter. So I was like, no. Basically, someone on the counter must have snitched and said, oh, you actually want to be a makeup artist. She said, well, is that what you want to do?

就像你其实并不想在柜台工作？而我回答，不，我确实想成为一名化妆师，而且要成为世界顶尖的化妆师之一。她直接说，我觉得你该收拾东西走人了。我说，我也这么认为。就这样，事情突然结束了。

Like you don t really want to work on the counter? And I said, yes, I do want to be a makeup artist and I'm going be one of the top makeup artists in the world. And she just said, I think you should get your bags and go. And I said, I think I should as well. So yeah, so that was the end of that, quite abruptly.

但那时我已经下定决心要继续在化妆领域闯出一片天。

But by then I was like, I need to, you know, crack on with makeup anyway.

那么你是怎么获得第一个重大突破的？

So how did you get your first big break?

第一次重大突破，我不得不挨家挨户敲门。我去过所有模特经纪公司，比如Model One和Storm，递上我的名片说，我现在正在试拍。他们会说，哦，太好了。如果他们有些年轻化妆师需要与想完善作品集的年轻摄影师合作。所以我基本每个周末都在试拍。

The first big break, I just had to kind of knock on doors. I was going into like all the model agencies like Model One and Storm, and I would give them my card and say, look, I'm testing at the moment. And they would say, oh, great. So if they had some young makeup artists that were going to, you know, work with young photographers that wanted to get their portfolio together. So I was testing, like every weekend I was testing basically.

周日早上六点，我就在狗岛做试拍。有时能成功。但得自费冲印照片，这是个问题。试拍成本很高，不像现在可以数字化处理。

So on a Sunday morning, I'd be in the Isle Of Dogs at 6AM, you know, doing a test. Then sometimes it worked. You had to pay for the print, so that was the problem. It was quite expensive to test. You couldn do it digitally like you would now.

你得先挑选喜欢的照片，冲印出来装进实体作品集。后来我在建筑师事务所找了份前台工作。这其实很棒，因为工作时我总观察周围，发现了梅菲尔区一家热闹的小店，就在我办公室对面。我觉得那儿很有意思。

You d have to choose the pictures that you liked and then get them printed and put into your physical portfolio. So I got another job on a reception at an architect s office. But that was a really nice thing to do because while I was in there, I always used to see who was around and I saw this little buzzy place. It was in Mayfair, right opposite the office that I used to work in. So I was like, that looks interesting.

我敲门问这里是做什么的？对方说，这是摄影师特伦斯·多诺万的工作室。我说，哦我猜就是摄影工作室。这是我的名片，我在对面工作但是个化妆师，如果你们需要试拍...他说，我是特伦斯的助理，确实在试拍。

So I knocked on the door and I said, what goes on here? And he s like, oh, it s Terrence Donovan's studio, the photographer's studio. I was like, oh, I thought it was a photographer's studio. I said, well, this is my card. I said, I work over the road but I m a makeup artist and if you re ever testing and he said, well, I m Terrence's assistant and I am testing.

我开始和他合作试拍，那时模特经纪公司已认可我的实力，会推荐我。于是我不得不在建筑师事务所频繁请病假，最后他们察觉了。他们说，你老是请病假。我坦白说，其实我要当化妆师，我现在就是化妆师。

So I started doing some tests with him and then by then the model agencies kind of knew I was good, so they would bring me up. So I had to keep taking days off sick in this architect s office, so they cottoned on. They were like, you keep taking days off sick and I m like, Okay, I m going to be really honest. I m actually, you know, I m going to be a makeup artist. I am a makeup artist.

他们说，好吧你该走了。后来我决定做经纪公司的工作，当接待员很棒，因为试拍能赚钱——虽然我不为钱工作，现在也是。模特经纪公司会说，有个李施德林广告报酬一千镑（巨款），或者问要不要拍《ID》杂志封底的小图？

So they were like, Okay, you should go. Then I figured out, Okay, I m going to do agency work and after that I did agency work as a receptionist and it was great because I was able to earn money through all the tests because I wasn't driven by money, I still aren't. I used to be like, they'd say to me, like maybe a model agency would say, oh, do you want to do this job? It's like for Listerine and it's, you know, a thousand pounds, which is a fortune. They'd you want to do this little picture in the back page of ID?

后者没钱但很酷。我总是选《ID》因为想要好作品。我就是这样不断接各种酷炫的小型试拍，利用休息日、晚上和周末所有时间做测试。

There's no money, but it's a good thing. And I'd be like, I do the ID thing because I want the good picture. So that s kind of what I did. So I used to just do all the cool little tests that were coming in and I just kind of worked days off, evenings, weekends, all the time doing testing.

你之前提到玛丽·格林威尔，看到她的名字后就去协助她工作。但我想知道，既然当时你的事业已步入正轨且能独立接单，为什么还要选择去当助手？你觉得这段经历能带来什么？

You mentioned Mary Greenwell earlier and seeing her name, and then you went on to assist her. But I wonder why if you were winning work at this point and your career was definitely on a trajectory, why did you want to go and assist someone and what did you think that that would add?

其实我从米兰回来是因为决定去那里生活三个月，那段日子简直疯狂。我就这么莽撞地去了，那对我而言是个关键转折点——我完全投身其中。那里有无数试镜机会，对我这样的化妆师来说工作量巨大，到处都是试图闯出名堂的新人模特，可做的零碎工作特别多。

Well, I came back from Milan because I've decided to go live in Milan for three months and that was a crazy old time. I kind of just rocked up. And that was really a kind of key moment for me because I threw myself in there. There was so much testing to do, so much makeup work for someone like me because it was just full of new models trying to make it. There was loads of like little things that you could do.

回来后我发现自己的作品集对初出茅庐的年轻人来说已经相当不错。积累了一定数量的作品，还有些样刊刊登，于是决定去当助手——那时我还没给任何人当过助手。我找到玛丽·格林威尔的经纪人黛比·沃尔特斯，她却说'你不需要当助手，你的作品集已经很出色了'。

And I got back from that and I thought my portfolio actually looked pretty good by then for somebody that was young and starting out. Like I had a decent body of work and I had some tear sheets by then and I just thought I really want to assist. I hadn't assisted anyone at that point. So I thought well I'll go to Mary Greenwell's agent. She actually said to me, Debbie Walters was the agent and she said you don't need to assist, like your book looks really good.

听起来你发展得很顺利。但我坚持要尝试。我在采访中说过，刚入行时接的工作都是新人场次——模特青涩，团队也稚嫩。我还没经历过超模、明星或顶级造型师在场的拍摄，很好想知道那种场合是否会有不同表现规则。

It sounds like you're doing really well. So I said, I want to do it. And I've said in interviews before that I think when you are starting out as a makeup artist, you go on these jobs and they're all like new people. Like, you know, the models are sort of green and fresh and new and everyone is. And I hadn't been on a job where a kind of supermodel or a celebrity walked in or a top, top, top stylist.

后来我和玛丽合作了伦敦和巴黎两个时装季，观察顶级化妆师待人接物的方式很有趣。结果发现根本没区别——琳达·伊万格丽斯塔进来时就像对新人模特那样打招呼'嗨亲爱的，最近怎样？'。

I just thought, I wonder if you behaved differently in those situations or if it s the same. I didn t know what almost the code would be. I just thought working with Mary and I did a season in London with her and a season in Paris. And I thought it would just be so interesting to watch her as a top person, like how she is with people. Anyway, the bottom line was it was no different because Linda Evangelista walked in, she s like, Hi darling, how are you?

这很有意思。和玛丽共事也让我受益匪浅，有次我急着赶化妆进度，她却说'秀场化妆要慢慢来，追求完美'。

Oh blah blah blah blah blah. Like you talk to a new model. That was really interesting. But it was also really good to work with her. I remember trying to be really fast and sort of rush the makeup and then she said, oh, take your time at shows, just make it gorgeous and take your time'.

类似的经验很多。记得和已是朋友的夏洛特·蒂尔伯里一起为玛丽工作时，后来又跟极具创意的顶级化妆师琳达·坎特罗合作了一季——她是我最爱的时尚大片化妆师。在巴黎那季，有次我改良了既定妆容...

So things like that. And I remember Charlotte Tilbury and we were kind of friends and working with Mary and then I did a season with Linda Cantello who was a really, really big makeup artist and was so creative. She was my favorite makeup artist for editorial and shows and things like that. So I did a season or two with her in Paris. And I remember doing the makeup, that was the look.

我稍微调整并加入了新元素。她走过来时我以为要挨训，结果她说'你做得很好，确实改进了这个妆容，真的很棒'。

But I sort of pimped it slightly and added something different. And she came over to me and I was like, no. And she said, you're really good. You've actually made that better. She said, you're really good.

之后她的经纪公司Atlantis签下了我。与玛丽合作那季后，小道消息说他们想签我。当时能进这家只签了吉多、山姆、玛丽、黛安·肯德尔等大牌的公司是大事——我就像个带着寥寥作品入行的新人，事业从此起飞。

And her agency took me on, which was Atlantis. After I d done that season with Mary, I heard amongst the grapevine that they wanted to take me on. To get with that agency at that time was quite a big deal because they only had Guido, Sam, Mary, Diane Kendall, Laurie Starrett was a really big maker of hers. So I was like the baby kind of starting out that joined that agency really with not a lot. So that was kind of when it took off.

纯粹好奇，还记得你改良的是哪个造型吗？具体做了什么改动？

Out of sheer curiosity, do you remember what the look was that you pimped up and what you did to it?

我记不太清了，但应该是在秀场后台，我记得自己好像加了金属色之类的元素，因为我知道不该擅自改动他们的设计，但我还是稍微调整了下。她说‘你在眼睑上用了金属色对吧？’我回答‘是的，抱歉，可以擦掉。’她却说‘不，这看起来很棒。’接着还夸我‘你真的很非常出色。’

I can't remember but I think it was like it was definitely backstage at the show and I think I added like metallic or something because I can remember it wasn't like you're supposed to follow what they do and I did slightly change it. She said, oh you've put metallic on the eyelid haven't you?' I said, 'Yes, sorry, can take it off' And she went No, it looks really good. And she went You're really, really good.

太棒了。能被自己崇拜的人这样认可，那种感觉简直...

Amazing. To have one of your heroes say that to you though as well, that's like

对吧！听到琳达·坎泰洛这么说，我当时的反应就是‘天啊！’整个人都在冒冷汗，紧张得不行。

I know! To have Linda Cantello say that to you is like Oh my god! I'm like yeah, sweating here, cold sweat.

在你的职业生涯中，你作为艺术家身兼多职——时尚大片、红毯妆造、产品研发、后台彩妆、YouTube美育导师，这还只是我随口能想到的五种身份。能否简单谈谈不同领域所需技能的差异？因为我觉得很多不熟悉彩妆的听众可能意识不到这些其实是完全不同的媒介。

In your career, you've worn so many different hats as an artist. You do editorial red carpet, product development, backstage, YouTube educator, and those are only the five that first came to mind. Can you talk us through just a little bit the different disciplines and how each requires like a different skill or focus? Because I think the people who are listening who aren't well versed in makeup wouldn't realize that those are actually quite different mediums, I want to say.

没错，这些工作性质截然不同。王室妆容和红毯妆容就是两回事，完全不同的专业领域，需要不同的思维方式，方方面面都不同。

Oh yeah, I mean all of those things are completely different. Royal makeup is very different from say red carpet makeup. It's a completely different discipline. It's a different mindset. It's a different everything.

最近几年我参与了很多电影项目，比如和蒂姆·伯顿合作《小飞象》，其实星期三那个角色的造型也是我设计的。这类工作又需要另一套完全不同的专业能力。而当你成为品牌的创意总监时，那又是全新的技能组合了。

And you know, now I ve been working on movies quite a lot the last few years. Working with Tim Burton, you know, I did Dumbo with him. I actually did the look for Wednesday, the character. That kind of stuff also requires a completely different discipline. And when you get into being a creative director of a brand, that's a whole different group of skills.

比如这个职位要求你能站在舞台上面对大批观众演讲，应对大型公关活动、采访和访谈。YouTube创作又是另一回事，需要的技能组合和其他工作完全不同。所以说，这些确实都是差异巨大的领域。

So something like that requires you to be able to go up on stage and speak to a big audience and deliver big PR days and interviews and talk. And then the YouTube thing is very different again because it's a whole different set of skills from everything else. So yeah, they're kind of all completely different.

我想共通点在于你对彩妆的热爱与激情，再加上你出色的表达能力——这让你能游刃有余地跨界工作。对某些人来说，可能只擅长某一个领域。

I don't say the common thread is that you love the makeup and you have passion for it and it's sort of handy that you're really eloquent and able to translate that because it means that you can work in all those spheres without finding it difficult. I think for some people, one thing is their thing.

是的，我完全理解。现在我也这样告诉年轻化妆师们，他们说‘我很热爱彩妆，但不想做YouTube也不想在Instagram上化妆’，我就回答‘那就别做’。

Yeah, and I get that. I say that to young makeup artists now. They're like, oh, I love makeup and I'm really into it. But I don't want to go on YouTube and I don't want to be doing my own makeup on Instagram. I'm like, don't.

如果不喜欢，依然可以成为优秀的时尚彩妆师。有些人有创意才华，但未必需要抛头露面。现在好像人人都被迫自我营销，但这并非所有人想要的方式，我特别能理解年轻艺术家的这种困扰。

If you don't enjoy it, there's definitely still a place for really strong editorial makeup artists, you know, and people with ideas that don't necessarily have to do that because I feel almost everyone's forced to be like putting themselves out there now and it's not what everyone wants to do and I understand that and I sympathise with that actually, for young artists.

是的。对你而言，还有另一件重要的事，那就是化妆史。你热爱化妆历史。你为此写过一本书，还在BBC制作过一档名为《华丽历史》的节目。

Yeah. With you, there's also sort of this huge other thing, which is the makeup history. You love makeup history. You've written a book about it. You've made a program called A Glamorous History at the BBC.

你收藏物品。听完你的背景故事后，这完全说得通。但我有三个非常具体的问题想请教你。第一个是：你收藏中最珍贵的单品是什么？如果只能保留一件，你会选哪个？

You collect items. At hearing your backstory, that makes complete sense. But I have three quite specific questions that I want to ask you about this. The first is, What is the most prized product from your collection? If you could keep one, what would it be?

这问题太难了。我是说，我每件都爱。有些破旧不堪的东西承载着强烈的情感，别人甚至会问'你干嘛收藏这个？'但我觉得它们诉说着主人的故事和时代印记。而那些保存完好、昂贵精致的物件虽然特别，却不见得比普通人的日常用品更珍贵——我两者都喜欢。我实在无法抉择。

That's too difficult a question. I mean, I love all of it. Because I like some of the really bashed in things that have so much emotional and, ugh, there's just some things that people will be like, why do you even collect that? I'm like, it just tells you so much about this person and so much about this era and other things that are just so pristine and beautiful and obviously really expensive and worth a lot of money that are special in some ways but not necessarily more special than the everyday, every regular person stuff because I like both of them. I don't know how I could ever decide one piece.

我觉得我做不到。真的，这就像让孩子选最爱哪个孩子一样不可能。有太多东西对我意义非凡，要么是稀世珍品，要么是早期收藏，要么造型独特到无法取舍。

I don't think I could actually. Yeah, I think that's just impossible. It's like children. It's impossible. I feel like there's so many things that are special to me, either because it was a really rare thing or it was one of the first things I got or it is particularly unusual that I couldn t choose one.

我真的不能

I really couldn

你关于物品日常性的观点很打动我。霍莉和鲁本霍尔德合著的《五》——不知你是否读过——从开膛手杰克受害者的视角讲述故事，完全不是侦探小说。

I love what you said about the everyday nature of things too. There s a book by Hallie and Rubenhold called The Five. I don know if you ve read it. It s about Jack the Ripper s victims and it talks from their perspective. So it's not really a whodunit at all.

它只聚焦这些女性的生活。书末列出了每位受害者随身物品：半截梳子、一块镜片、单只手套...这些微小私人物品让我无比动容。比如翻看我的手袋，会比观察我的脸更能了解真实的我——面容是基因给的，但随身物品全是自主选择。

It's just about the women's lives. And at the end of the book, she lists everything that was found on each of those women. And it's like half a comb, section of a mirror, you know, one glove. And it's these really small personal things. And to me, at that point, it made me feel very emotional because those tiny things that we touch every day I know if you looked in my handbags, you'd get a better idea of who I am than looking at my face, for example, because this is sort of you know, there are choices made, but it's really largely what I've been given genetically.

这些物品承载着人生故事。那些磨损的旧物仿佛封存着主人的灵魂，记录着他们生命的轨迹。

But the things you carry around are are such a choice, and they they tell you these stories. So I feel like absolutely those sort bashed and used items, like, contain someone's, like, soul in some way, it's like the history of their life is there.

噢，完全同意！我有副1930年代的假睫毛，想到那个年代工厂女工都能买得起假睫毛——这副显然被用到极致：胶水痕迹还在空盒里，睫毛已脱落。但它代表着特殊意义：那是她们逃离现实的幻想世界。

Oh, absolutely. I mean, yeah, I think, like, there is a set of fake eyelashes that I have that are, like, from the 1930s and I just think that, to be able to afford to buy fake eyelashes and to have them democratise to the point where you could be working in a factory and buy fake eyelashes and there's just this set that I've obviously been worn to death as being like the glue is still perfectly the box, although it's empty. And then the lashes have been taken off. I just think this represented something so special. This was like a fantasy world of you know, leaving whatever job they had.

虽不知主人是谁，但我总想象她戴上假睫毛化身电影明星的模样。触摸它们时能感受到那种能量——对某人而言这曾是珍宝啊！拥有这样的东西该多么激动人心。

I don't know who they were or what they did but I imagine, you know, somebody kind of going out and putting on their fake eyelashes and they become this movie star and this attitude and this and it's just like they are just they feel like they've got this energy. When I touch them I'm like wow, these were so special to someone. This is gold. It's such a lovely thing. So it must have felt so exciting and so, incredible to own something like that.

好的。我的下一个问题是：哪个时代的妆容最让你着迷？

Right. My next question. Which era most intrigued you for the makeup?

可能是两次世界大战之间的年代。所以我会说是20年代和30年代。仅仅因为那时发生的事，化妆开始成为潮流，那是化妆的起源。我常常觉得那是对化妆态度和化妆品可获得性的巨大转变。

Probably the interwar years. So I would say 20s and 30s. Just because of what's happening, the fact that makeup is becoming a thing. It's the beginning of makeup. And I often I feel like such a huge sea change in attitudes towards makeup and availability of makeup.

有点像2010到2020年间发生的事，当YouTube兴起时，化妆经历了一次巨大的复兴，人们被教导如何成为化妆师，本质上就是那时发生的事。我觉得那是另一种巨大的转变，非常迷人。我很幸运能亲身经历并参与其中。但20、30年代那个最初的时刻，普通女孩能走进伍尔沃斯商店花10便士或一毛钱买支口红，看看当时的头条新闻，《泰晤士报》上就有这样惊人的标题：这些女孩会毁掉我们的国家，必须阻止这些留着波波头、涂着猩红嘴唇招摇过市的轻佻女子。

A little bit like what happened between 2010 and 2020 when YouTube started and makeup became it had this massive renaissance and people were being taught how to be a makeup artist, which is essentially what happened. And I feel like that's a kind of another big sea change which is fascinating. M lucky enough to be able to have lived through that and been part of it. But that first moment in the 20s and 30s of regular girls being able to go down to Woolworths and buy lipstick for 10p or a dime, just looking at the headlines, there s an amazing headline in The Times of like, these girls are going to bring down our country. They have to be stopped in the flappers because they are walking around with their slashed red mouths.

有时我走在街上，仿佛身处一个无人化妆、衣着单调的时代。想象一下看到有人留着短波波头、涂着红唇从街角走来。放在今天相当于什么？我觉得现在甚至找不到那么极端的人了。你可以说是全身纹满刺青的人，但那种现在也见怪不怪了。

Sometimes when I walk around, I am in an era of no one wearing any makeup and clothes not being particularly colourful. Imagine seeing someone walk around the corner with a short bob hairstyle and red lips. What would it be the equivalent of today? I mean, I don't even think there is an equivalent of anyone that extreme today. You could say somebody that was tattooed head to toe but that kind of now done.

但那时剪波波头和涂红唇要激进得多，如此离经叛道，如此朋克，如此反传统。所有这些都让我特别着迷，尤其是那个时期。

But that was even more extreme then to have bobbed hair and red lips was so out there. It was so punk. It was so kind of like anti established. All of that stuff. That is so fascinating to me, that period particularly.

我爱所有这些物品，每样东西都很小巧。这仍然迎合了一种性别歧视的观念，认为女性应该娇小玲珑，所以一切都设计得迷你，所有广告都在宣扬精致感。但归根结底，虽然物品很小，当你打开它时，却是鲜艳的红色——这在当时会是令人震惊的景象，非常震撼。

I love all the items, everything is tiny. It s still playing into a misogynistic idea that women should be dainty and so everything's small and all the advertising's about daintiness but at the end of the day it might be a small item but when you open it, it's bright red and that would have been a shocking, shocking sight. Shocking.

是啊。回顾历史时这些形象对人们的冲击如此之大，这很有趣。我是猫王的超级粉丝，关于他在50年代的形象，人们议论纷纷，说他扭动臀部的动作充满暗示性，会败坏社会风气。我是说，我们现在很难想象五十年代的人看到他时的感受。我觉得他现在的形象也不一样了。

Yeah. It's so interesting how when you look back in history, these looks affected people so much. I'm a major Elvis fan and like all the stuff to do with his image in the 50s and the way people were talking about him and saying that he was, you know, going to bring down society because he was suggestively waggling his hips. I mean, there's no don't think we can imagine now for a fifties, you know, seeing him. I mean, I don't think he looked the same.

我倒觉得他现在依然显得很性感。但即便如此...没错，即便如此，像油腻的头发那些造型，当时人们对此非常不安。我认为我们现在没有类似的现象，因为现在我们会回收再利用各种造型并稍加修改。但我觉得现在没有那种全新的震撼形象了，因为在我们的外表方面，几乎所有的可能性都被尝试过了。

Think he still comes across as quite sexy, want to say. But even so Yeah. But even so, and like the the greasy hair and all of that, people are so disturbed by it. And I just think we don't we don't have an equivalent of that because now it's like we recycle looks and tweak them. But I feel like there isn't a new version of that because sort of now with our appearances, almost everything's been done.

我真不知道现在要怎么才能达到当年那种震撼效果了。

I don't know how you would shock now really in the same way.

是啊，距离下一次出现真正突破性的东西可能还要好些年。但在这个时期，我们已经尝试过一切，见识过一切，都是循环利用。特别是过去七年，化妆技术领域甚至都没有重大突破。所以想象那种震撼效果还挺有意思的，对吧？

Yeah, no, the next is a good few years off when there will be something so out there. But in this period, we've done everything, we've seen everything, it's recycled. Even in the last seven years, there hasn't been any big breakthroughs in technology and makeup particularly. So it's interesting to imagine that kind of shock factor, you know?

那么如果你能回到过去，从历史中挑选三位已故的人物，假设是三位早已离世的人，让我们回溯久远一些，你会选择谁？

So if you could go back in time and make up three people from history, let's say three people who aren't alive anymore, let's go back a while, who would they be?

天啊，我想是菲达·巴拉。我很想和她聊聊。我对她非常着迷，很想听听她的见解。虽然我读过关于她的书籍，但我更希望能亲自见到她。

Gosh, I think Fida Barra. I'd love to talk to her. I'm fascinated by her. I would love to get her take on it all. I mean, I've read books about her and things, but I would just love to meet her in person.

我很想为那个时代的她做电影化妆，你知道的，打造那些卷发造型，完成所有细节。所以她会是其中之一。另外，我当然也想为玛丽·安托瓦内特化妆，这样我就能亲眼看到她所用的一切的确切颜色，亲手触摸、亲眼见证。

I would love to do her makeup for a film back then, you know, to do the colis, to do all of that stuff. So she would be one. Then I would love to do Marie Antoinette, obviously. Just because then I could really see the exact colour of everything that she is using. I would like to touch it, see it.

我还想感受化妆的过程，从开始到结束的完整体验，那将会非常奇妙。我想回到古埃及，那里也有化妆师。所以我愿意成为古埃及的一名化妆师，如果能给克利奥帕特拉化妆就更棒了。

I want to feel the makeup as well, the whole process basically from start to finish. That would be amazing. I would like to go back to ancient Egypt and there were makeup artists in ancient Egypt. So I would like to be a makeup artist in ancient Egypt. If I can do Cleopatra, great.

如果不行也没关系，给其他人化妆也可以。我渴望感受那些质地，亲眼看到真实的妆容，观察人们真实的面容。那种视觉效果会令人着迷。其实我还能想到许多其他想穿越回去的时代。

If I can t, that s fine. Do anyone else a makeup. Would love to feel the textures and to see it in reality, to see people's faces in reality. You know, how that looked would just be fascinating. So I mean, I could think of loads of other time periods I'd like to go back to as well.

有趣的是，未来的人们回顾你的作品时，可能会希望自己当时能在你为名人化妆的现场。是的，因为你现在拥有的这些经验，让你与众多名人建立了深厚的合作关系，经常与他们共事。我这里记下了三个人选。

It's interesting that people in the future will look back at your work and probably wish that they could have been in one of the rooms that you were in making up someone you've made up. Yes. Because you're that person who has this experience of now. It feeds back into you having these big established relationships with celebrities and you work with them a lot. So there are three people that I've written down.

我在想，既然你拥有如此惊艳的口红系列，如果让你为她们每人推荐一款你认为最适合、能让她们光彩照人的色号，你会为伊娃·格林、凯特·温丝莱特和索菲·朵儿分别选择哪一款？

And I wonder, because you've got this amazing lipstick range, and if you could share one of them that you think that woman should wear, you know, would make them look fantastic, which would it be for Eva Green, Kate Winslet and Sophie Doll?

好的，伊娃很简单，因为那是她最爱的颜色——Velvet Morning。虽然她适合很多色号，但这是她的心头好。那种橘红色调让她看起来美极了。至于凯特，我昨天刚见过她，我会推荐Velvet Petal。

Okay, Eva's easy because it's her favorite color, it's Velvet Morning. I mean, she can wear a lot but that's her kind of favorite. So velvet petal because with that orangey red, she looks incredible. So laugh, laugh, laugh. For Kate, who I was actually with yesterday, I would say velvet petal.

有意思的是，她确实更适合那种浅粉色系的唇妆，那是她的舒适区。不过说实话，我也爱看她涂红唇，偶尔我们会用Velvet系列打造红唇妆，但她更习惯自然色调的唇色，所以我推荐Velvet Peppered。

Interesting. Because she definitely looks good with those kind of more light pink shades on her lips. That's her kind of comfort zone. I mean I love her in a red lip to be honest. I love her with velvet occasionally we do a red lip but she's more at home with a more natural coloured lip so I say velvet peppered.

但你曾在视频中谈到凯特的妆容时说过，她喜欢在最后给自己的嘴唇做些特别处理。

But you once said when you were talking about Kate's makeup in a video, you said she likes to do something to her own lips at the end.

哦对，她有个特别喜欢的唇线形状。她喜欢下唇外缘的特定轮廓。现在给她画这个我闭着眼都能完成，但我还是会递给她唇线笔。我自己也有些小癖好。所以昨天我还是把笔递给她，说‘你自己描唇线吧，毕竟你知道自己喜欢的样子’，虽然我完全可以代劳。

Oh yeah, no, she has a line shape she likes. So it's the lower lip that she likes a particular shape at the outer edges of the lip. So yeah, I mean, could do that in my sleep now on her but I still give her the pencil. I'd want to do my little foible, whatever myself as well. So I still hand her the pencil and I did yesterday, you know, and say like do your lip line because it's the way you like it, you know, and I could do it.

但化妆时我常会换位思考。所以面对新客户时我总会问：‘有什么不喜欢的妆容吗？喜欢什么风格？对自己的脸部特征有什么看法？’这些问题往往能揭示她们对自身容貌的真实感受，答案总是很有趣。

But I put myself in my client's shoes sometimes, you know, when I'm doing makeup. So that's why I always ask them like, is there anything you don't like with a new client, anything you like? What about your face? Like if you had makeup that you didn't like? Because when you ask those questions, it's so interesting and it's quite revealing about them and about how they feel about their face.

那么，Sophie Doll呢？

Okay, and Sophie Doll?

天啊，她简直百搭！她就是理想模板。如果要给她画深邃眼妆，我超爱用丝绒质感的紫色——她本来就钟情紫色眼影，简直是演绎紫罗兰眼妆的完美人选。

Oh my god, yeah, she looks good in everything. Oh, she's just the dream. I love her in velvet form if I'm doing, like, a deeper eye on her. Like, she's the dream for a purple eye. She loves purple eyes anyway.

其实之前我给Ava用神话盘化妆后，她还发消息说‘那个眼妆绝了！’我特别爱给她画那种紫调眼妆搭配裸粉玫瑰唇色。不过她也能驾驭深色系，像‘ blush light leaves’这种带蓝调的深色在她脸上也超美。

In fact, she messaged me when I'd just done a thing on Ava with the Myth Palette and she's like, that's like, oh my god, that eye was insane. So I love her with that kind of a purply eye and then this really kind of almost beige y pink rose lip. I love her in that look. But then again, she can look really good in a deep shade as well. So something like blush light leaves is good colour for her as well.

‘Velvet Midnight’那种深色她肯定惊艳，虽然还没试过，或许下次可以...

It's a little bit more blue. It's got blue undertones in it and it's a bit deeper. It's really good in that. But, like, Velvet Midnight, look incredible in. I haven't actually done that look on her, but maybe I will.

我会的。

I will.

你行程这么满，这么多人都想预约你。能分享一下你的日常作息吗？比如每天会做哪些固定事项来保持状态并留出私人时间？

You are such a busy woman. There are so many people who want your time. I'd like to know, do you have a routine? And if so, could you give us a framework of what you do every day to feel set up and like you've had some time to yourself?

我超爱泡澡。前两天特意去买了些好东西——虽然经常收到品牌礼物，但自己选购感觉更特别。买了超赞的浴盐，昨晚就在忙碌之余享受了香气迷人的泡泡浴。

I do like having a bath. And I actually I went shopping two nights ago, I was like, wanna buy some treats. Even though I get sent stuff, it feels, like, special. And I bought some really amazing bath salts. And so last night, because it's been crazy recently, I had a lovely bath in this stuff that smelled incredible.

这就是我的放松方式。泡澡时灵感最多，喜欢听着音乐敷面膜泡澡，对我来说这就是极致享受。

That's what I like doing. I like going in the bath. I get all my good ideas in the bath as well. So I love to kind of just listen to music, get into the bath, put face mask on while I'm in there. That's like the dream for me.

事情变得让人喘不过气。我得漂浮半小时左右。

Things just get overwhelming. Have to go afloat for like half an hour.

有意思。还有其他方面吗？比如你在饮食、锻炼这些日常习惯上是否很有规律？

Interesting. And is there anything else, like, you someone who's quite routine about like food, exercise, anything like that?

我尽量保持。我有状态好的时候，也有不太好的时候。当处于生存模式特别忙时，我就告诉自己别太在意，可能吃得不太健康。但状态好时，我会严格补充营养，注意饮食。

I try to be. Like I have my good phases and my not so good phases. When I'm in survival mode and it's just so busy, I just have to say to myself, don't worry about it. Like I'll be eating not great. When I'm being good, then I'm really good on my supplements, on what I eat.

我现在定期去健身房。这对我来说是新习惯，才坚持了一年半。最近三个月我每周去一两次，现在想重新规律起来。我真的很喜欢健身。

I go to the gym really regularly. I mean, that's quite a new thing for me. It's only been a year and a half, but I've been going to the gym the last three months. I ve only gone twice a week or once a week but now I want to get back into it. And I really like doing that.

我还做普拉提，坚持的时候会非常认真。平时饮食也健康，虽然偶尔会放纵吃糖，但不会苛责自己。

And I do pilates and when I m on it, I'm very, very good. And in general, I eat pretty healthy. I mean, I've always eaten really healthy. But if I fall off the wagon in terms of sugar and stuff, I don't beat myself up about it.

你是家里负责做饭的人吗？虽然两个孩子已经长大了，但以前你会下班回家做饭吗？

Are you the person who cooks in your household? Because you've got two children as well and I know they're more grown ups now but were you someone who would sort of go home and cook?

是的，以前经常做饭——虽然现在做得少了。我很享受烹饪，感觉像创作产品。我总说设计产品就像烹饪，反过来也成立。比如给眼妆加点金属色，就像菜谱外额外加香草，我喜欢这种创意。

Yeah, I used to cook a lot I mean I don't actually at the moment but I used to cook and I really enjoyed cooking. I feel like it is a bit like doing creating products, because I always say that when I creating products, that s like cooking. So I guess the reverse is true. In that, you know, adding and putting that little bit of metallic paint on the eye could be just putting in a herb that wasn t really in the recipe book. So I like things like that.

以前还爱做生日装饰蛋糕，这感觉就像画面部彩绘。所以没错，我确实很喜欢烹饪。

And I used to love making decorative cakes for birthdays and things like that because that feels almost like doing face paint. So yeah, I do really like cooking.

明白了。在常规问题之前——天啊，我有些产品相关的问题。如果要早起自己化妆，你会必备哪些产品？

Right. Before I ask you the questions I ask, oh my god, I've got a couple of product y questions to ask you. So if you were doing your own makeup for a very early start, what would you reach for? What's non negotiable for you?

遮瑕产品，用来均匀嘴周和下巴的红晕。我面部皮肤比身体红，特别是这些区域。哪怕只在出租车上简单涂点粉底，只要把这部分遮好，我就能应付整天。但如果这里通红，我会很困扰。

Concealer or something just to even up the redness around my mouth and chin. My face, the skin is a lot redder than my body and particularly in certain areas. So I will just put a little bit of foundation, even just here, like I'll do here in the taxi on the way to a job. And if I just even out this area, then I can cope with the whole day. But if this is bright red, it just upsets me.

我用一款比脸色稍偏金的粉底，这样能让脸和脖子的肤色自然衔接。完成后如果还有时间，我会就此打住；若时间充裕，就再夹翘睫毛、刷点睫毛膏和腮红。这就是我理想中的妆容效果。嗯。

I use a foundation that's a touch more golden than my face but it makes my face and neck kind of join together. So if I get rid of this and then once I've done that, if I've got a bit more time I'm happy to stop there and if I've got a bit more time, I'll curl my eyelashes, put a little bit of mascara on and some blush. That's the dream sort of face for me. Mhmm.

假设我是你的老友现在打电话说：丽莎，我明天要去伦敦购物，快告诉我该买什么？推荐几款你爱的产品吧。你会怎么回答？

And if I were one of your old friends and I phoned you up now and said, Lisa, like, I'm going to London tomorrow. I'm gonna go shopping. Just what do I need to buy? Tell me a few products you love. What would they be?

天呐，我会先问你需要什么？毕竟不能盲目消费。我会问：你现在想要什么类型的？实际需要什么？顺便说，我朋友经常这样找我化妆或请教美妆技巧。

Oh my god, I'd say, what do you need? Because you don't want to just be buying stuff for no reason. I'd say, what are you in the mood for? What do you need? My friends do this all the time, by the way, and ask me to do makeup and give them makeup lessons.

我会先检查她们的化妆包：'这个该更新了'，'那个可以升级更好版本'。前几周我在YouTube频道和粉丝做美妆企划，她带了化妆包来——里面有橘调腮红和亮橙色修容（她男友买的），但根本不适合她。我直说：这些必须淘汰，虽然贵但不衬肤色。还有颜色错误的唇线笔，以及不符合她眼型的假睫毛。所以很难笼统推荐产品。

So I would ask them what they have got in the makeup bag and I would be like, Okay, that needs updating. Oh, that could do with a better version of that. Or we did a makeup thing on my YouTube channel a couple of weeks ago with a subscriber. She brought me her makeup bag and she had an orangey blush in there, bright orange bronzer her boyfriend had bought it for her But it really didn't suit her so I'm like: you just need to get rid of this, I'm sorry I know it's expensive but it honestly doesn't suit either colour And then there was a lip liner that didn't suit her with the wrong color and there was some fake eyelashes in there that really didn't suit her face shape, eye shape. So I guess it's hard to say what people need.

就像有人问'五分钟快速妆容怎么画'，其实不存在标准答案。每个人需要重点修饰的部位都不同。抱歉没直接回答你问题——核心是建议先审视自己的化妆包。

It's like when people say, what's the five minute makeup? I'm like, there isn't one. Everyone's got a different area of their face they need to spend the five minutes on. So sorry, I haven't answered your question. Basically, I'm saying, look in your makeup bag.

哪些产品不好用？哪些需要更新？什么能让你开心？什么能带来愉悦感？

What's not working? What feels like it needs updating? What would make you happy? And what would bring you joy?

进入终极三问前的最后一个问题：人们对美妆有诸多评判，就像中世纪认为化妆是欺骗。有人视它为纯粹快乐，有人看作必需品，各种情绪交织其中——

Final question before I ask you the three questions, which is how I finish. A lot of people level a lot of stuff at makeup. There's a lot of, like, almost, I want to say, if we went back to the medieval era when it was like, oh, well, makeup is deceptive. And sometimes people talk about makeup as being pure joy, sometimes people talk about, you know, the necessity of makeup. There's a lot of emotions leveled at it.

从对话中我感受到，对你而言美妆意味着快乐与创意。你在YouTube频道也传递这种理念：不是迎合标准，而是分享实用技巧。经过这么多年，化妆对你而言仍是那种——容我说——毫无保留的快乐吗？

What I've got from you throughout the chat that we've had is that to you, it's joy and creativity. And that feels like that's what you're talking about on your YouTube channel too. It's not about conforming. It's about giving good tips to people. And if you'd like to learn this, is makeup still now, after years and years of doing it, is it still a source of, I would say, unbridled joy for you?

当你面对新客户时，还会为打造妆容感到兴奋吗？

And when you sit down with someone new in front of you, are you still excited to do their face?

当然！我始终热爱化妆、改造面容、创造造型。这种热情从未消退——如今经营个人品牌很忙，团队看我接化妆工作会说'真要接？该休息了'，但对我而言那正是放松。

Yes, I m definitely still excited to do makeup and to work on faces and to create looks. That s never gone away to the point where when I m now kind of busy with my own brand and my team will say, oh, because I accept makeup jobs and they were like, really? You know, we should have a day off. And I don't understand. That is a day off for me.

如果我去为某人化妆或进行时尚造型，那对我来说就像休息日，因为化妆时我的心境如同冥想般自由。而商业运作则是另一回事。如今化妆品品牌繁多，竞争激烈。我依然会为那些蕴含真心与灵魂的事物感到欣喜。

If I go and do this person's makeup or I go and do an editorial, that is a day off for me because my mind, it's like a meditation when I'm doing the makeup. My mind is free. The business side of it, guess, is different. Like now there's just so many makeup brands and so much going on. You know, I'm still overjoyed by things that I feel have heart and soul.

当事情纯粹变成营销时，我向来不喜欢这种氛围，我能嗅出其中的虚伪。但当我发现某个产品确实出色，喜爱其创始人或品牌故事，至今仍能为之倾注热情时，情况就不同了。虽然有人通过BBC四台采访后发消息指责我‘别推销化妆品’，但我的立场是：我从未要求每个人都必须化妆。

When it becomes just marketing, I've never liked that anyway and I can smell it. Like I don't like that. But when something is coming from a place where I think that's an incredible product and I love the founder or the story and I can feel really passionate about it still, even today actually. So yeah, and I get that people get you know, I've been on done interviews on Radio four and then had people like messaging me saying stop pushing makeup. I'm like, I'm not saying that everyone has to wear makeup.

我并非主张必须使用特定类型的化妆品。我的观点是：若你不喜欢化妆，完全不必使用——这我百分百赞同。我没有向任何人强推化妆品。但男性、女性或任何性别都应有权化妆，只要他们愿意并享受这种原始的面部彩绘创作，我认为这种欲望是人类与生俱来的。

I'm not saying that we have to even wear a particular type of makeup. I'm saying if you don't like makeup and you don't want to wear it, don't wear it. That's what I agree with 100%. I'm not pushing makeup onto anyone. But what I am saying is that men, women, anyone should be allowed to wear makeup if they want to wear it and if they enjoy it and if they enjoy the primeval creativity of just painting your face, which is something that I believe is just in us.

当然不是所有人都有这种需求。我最反感的是某些营销手段让人误以为离不开化妆品，或暗示没有某款产品就不够完美。我始终反对这种负面宣传，多年来也多次批评过这种广告方式。

Not all of us because some people don't want to do it. So I really feel like the worst thing that can happen to makeup is that it gets marketed in a way that you are made to believe you need it and you can t live without it. Or that it s marketing in a way that is making out that you re not going to be good enough without this particular product do you know what I mean? I just don like that side of it and I never have liked that side of it. I ve spoken a lot about negative advertising and things and I don t enjoy that.

正因如此，我公司里其实没有专职营销人员。无论潮流如何，我只专注自己热爱的事业。我的YouTube频道能持续运营，正是因为我完全忠于自我。若要我念违心的台词，观众立刻会察觉——我根本做不到。只要保持这份真诚，自然会有志同道合者加入。

Which is why I don't actually be marketing person in my company because I don't really want I'm like, I'm doing my thing, whether it's trendy or not. I have a passion and I speak my mind about what I love and I genuinely am able to do my YouTube channel because I am 100% true to myself. If someone gave me lines to say that weren't right, you would notice. I couldn't do it. So as long as I'm doing that and if somebody wants to join in with me and be passionate about that or likes what I'm doing, that's great.

但绝不强求任何人。记得多年前我给金·卡戴珊化妆时，某些女权主义者非常不满，质问我‘为何替这个消费主义符号服务’。

But nobody needs to. I'm not asking anyone, not forcing anyone to do it. So I kind of feel like that. Then because I remember like some feminists got really upset with me years ago when I did used to do Kim Fardashian's makeup when she used to be in London and I used to do her makeup when everybody was here. And they'd be like, well how can you do her makeup because it's all about consuming products?

我回应道：没人要求你模仿她的妆容。那是她个人的风格选择，她热衷于此。

I'm like, no, it isn't. Nobody's asking you to copy her makeup. She's not asking you. She's got her style. She's into that.

她对化妆充满热情，那是她的审美取向。而我不必迎合任何质疑——这根本不重要。

She's really passionate. She likes makeup and that's her style. And she knew I didn't want to keep up with questions. It doesn't matter. I don't have to be.

她热爱化妆，我也热爱。我们各有风格，那段合作其实充满快乐。所有这些争论都有道理，但最终理想社会应该包容：不化妆、淡妆、浓妆或每日变换造型都是个人自由。达到这种状态时，才算真正进步。

She loves makeup, I loved makeup. She had a style of makeup, I've got a style of makeup. And actually it was joyful and lovely. So all of these arguments are valid but at the end of the day, if you, we should be in a society where you can wear no makeup, a bit of makeup, loads of makeup, or you can change it every day. And when it's like that, then I feel like we're in a good place.

确实。这也是各领域普遍存在的现象吧？只要不违背基本人性，我们理应接受人们选择自己想要的样貌与生活方式。

Yeah. And it's also a symptom of what's going on across all you know, different spheres, isn't it? Like, if we can accept that people wanna look the way they look, we can accept they wanna live the way they live, you know, within the confines of being a decent human being, you know, whatever.

如果你感到快乐，就继续前行。活出最精彩的人生。

Carry on if you're happy. Live your best life.

那么我要问你三个我向所有嘉宾提出的问题。第一个是，在你看来，职业生涯或个人生活中最大的成就是什么？

So I'm going to ask you the three questions I ask all my guests. The first being, what to your mind has been your greatest triumph career or personal?

可能是成为一名母亲。这是我超乎想象地享受的事情，直到今天我依然热爱。所以我认为这是我最喜欢的事。这是一个极具创造性的项目，也是我会感叹‘哇，那太棒了’的事情。

Probably being a mom. That's what I've enjoyed, like beyond I could have ever imagined and I still love it today. So I think that's been my favorite thing. It's been a very creative project and that will be the thing that I'll be like, wow, that was amazing.

说出一条你会给年轻时的自己的建议，以及你想回到哪个年龄段的自己？

Name one piece of advice you would give your younger self and which version or age of you, I want to say, would you return to?

我会建议自己——我从小被教育要谦虚，比如永远不要自吹自擂，不要炫耀之类的。在我职业生涯初期，这有时会阻碍我。当我做得不错时，别人会称赞，而我会说‘哦，还行吧，你知道，我做了点化妆工作’。现在回想起来，我会想‘拜托，妈妈，你当时在干嘛？’谦虚是美德，这没错。但如果能和自己聊聊，我会说‘来吧姑娘，大胆说出来，展示出来’。

I would give myself the advice to I guess I was brought up to be like, oh don t ever blow your own trumpet, don t ever don t show off kind of thing. I think at times, in the beginning of my career, it kind of held me back when I was doing well and people would say, and I would be like, oh yeah, well, you know, I ve done a bit of makeup. And I think back and I like, come on, mom, what were you doing? Modesty is lovely and I think that s all fine. But if I could have a chat with myself, I d be like, come on girl, talk about it, get it up, you know.

我觉得如果在言语上更外向些，可能会对我大有帮助。

I think it could have helped me a lot to be a bit more out there verbally.

说出三位你想共进晚餐的人（无论在世与否）及原因。假设他们今晚就要来参加你的晚宴。

Name three people dead or alive who you'd like to have dinner with and why. And I'm going to say, let's say they're coming to your dinner party tonight.

好的。我会选弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫，因为《奥兰多》这本书，我想问她些相关问题。然后是德里克·贾曼，因为我们可以没完没了地聊色彩。实际上我觉得可能需要另约一天专门讨论颜色。

Okay. I think I'll have Virginia Woolf because of the book Orlando, and I kinda wanna ask some questions about that. Her, I'm gonna have Derek Jarman because we can talk about color for hours and hours and hours. In fact, I think I might have to tell him on a separate day just to talk about color. Okay.

第三个人选谁呢？或许我会选女王陛下，因为...是的，我也有几个问题想问她。应该会很有趣。

And for my third person, who am I going to have? I think Maybe I'll have the Queen actually, just because it Yeah, would be good to I've got some questions there as well. Would be quite interesting.

顺便说，女王也是化妆品的爱好者呢。

Also, a bit of a makeup fan, the Queen.

是的，不，她是个化妆迷。她以前是个化妆迷。没错，绝对是的。可能我有些问题要问。是的。

Yeah, no, she is a makeup fan. She was a makeup fan. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe I've got some questions. Yeah.

我只想非常感谢你参加这个节目。能和你聊天并了解你的世界真是太棒了。我感觉现在就想跑去玩化妆了。

I just wanna say thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been wonderful to chat and to run through all of your world. I feel like I want to go off and play with makeup now.

刚才那是丽莎·埃尔德里奇。能坐下来和她聊天真是莫大的享受。我非常喜欢这次对话，希望你们也能享受其中，哪怕只有我一半的快乐。如我所承诺的，现在我要多介绍一下本周的赞助商Amly。Amly是一个可持续且零残忍的英国护肤品牌，他们将植物力量与科学验证的成分相结合，创造出美丽且极具感染力的产品。

So that was Lisa Eldridge. What an absolute treat to sit down and have a chat with her. I just loved that and I hope you enjoyed it even half as much as I did. Now as promised I'm going to tell you a little bit more about this week's sponsor Amly. So Amly are a sustainable and cruelty free British skincare brand who marry plant power and scientifically proven ingredients to create beautiful and really evocative products.

在了解每款产品的诞生过程时，最打动我的是每一款产品都是一种体验，从各种质地——从感官喷雾到美丽的黄油般柔滑的乳霜，再到源自草地和古老林地的自然香气。我知道这听起来可能有点夸张，但说实话，它们确实在肌肤效果和那种带你逃离到神奇之地的愉悦感上都做得非常出色。自2015年推出以来，他们已经赢得了超过18个行业奖项。这很了不起。在这么短的时间内获得这么多奖项。

The thing that most struck me while learning about how each product came about was how much of an experience each one was, from the variety of textures ranging from sensorial mist to beautiful buttery balms to the natural scents which are drawn from meadows and ancient woodlands. I know how that sounds, but honestly though, they really deliver on both the impact on your skin and just feeling like a real treat that takes you away to somewhere magical. Since their launch in 2015, they've won over 18 industry awards. That's huge. That's a lot of awards in that short of time.

他们的产品被《Vogue》誉为“瓶中的魔法”，这几乎就是我对那些融合了银离子泉水与天然及生物科技成分的产品的描述，它们确实带来了显著的效果。如果非要我推荐几款的话，我最喜欢的是全效焕彩保湿身体精华，它非常轻盈。你只需轻拍，它就会迅速被皮肤吸收。但在保湿方面效果惊人，目前它让我的双腿远离了干燥起皮的困扰。我还喜欢眼部护理花卉水润霜，同样感觉轻盈丝滑，但涂抹后能让我的眼部肌肤保持数小时的水润。

And have had their products dubbed magic in a bottle by Vogue, which is pretty much how I describe the blends of silver infused spring water with natural and biotech ingredients that really deliver great results. My favorites, if absolutely pushed to name some of them, would be the All Over Radiance Moisturizing Body Essence, which is really lightweight. You just tap it on and it disappears into your skin. But it packs a punch on the moisturizing front and has been doing amazing work of keeping my legs from resembling a sort of scaly scaly situation at the moment. I also love the Eye Care Flora Water Cream, which likewise feels light and slippy, but makes my eyes feel hydrated for hours after applying.

我已经试用了整个系列，发现每一款产品都经过深思熟虑和精心挑选。如果你想亲自尝试，请访问amlybotanicals.co.uk，并使用优惠码beauty22，首次下单可享22%折扣。感谢大家一直收听到播客的结尾。下周还会有新一期的《美丽人生》，届时我将与不可思议的吉赛尔·勒庞·摩尔对话。

Now I've tried the whole range and find them all so well considered and curated. And if you'd like to give them a while yourself, visit amlybotanicals.co.uk and use the code beauty 22 for 22% off your first order. Thank you for listening all the way to the end of the podcast. There will be another episode of Beautiful Lives along in a week where I will be speaking to the incredible Giselle Lepompe Moore.