第209集 - Efka Bladukas谈游戏报道的故事性

现在是广告时间。我很自豪地宣布，《Beyond Solitaire》播客由中密歇根大学游戏与模拟学习中心赞助。10月1日，他们将推出名为《艺术与系统》的新系列，由蒂姆·哈钦斯主持。该系列旨在展示独立游戏并突破游戏的边界。首批进入众筹的游戏包括利亚姆·伯克《狗咬狗》的修订版、安娜·安瑟比的《持诅咒之剑的公主》，以及蒂莫西·克莱纳的《山中的巫婆》。

It's ad break time. I am proud to announce that the Beyond Solitaire podcast is sponsored by Central Michigan University's Center for Learning through games and simulations. On October 1, they will be launching a new series called Art and System, which will be headed up by Tim Hutchings. The goal of the series is to showcase indie games and to push the boundaries of gaming. The first games to go to crowdfunding will be a revised edition of Liam Burke's Dog Eat Dog, Ana Anthropy's princess with a cursed sword, and Timothy Kleiner's the mountain witch.

这是一项我个人非常兴奋并支持的绝佳倡议。此外，如果你想帮助我维持播客的运营，可以在patreon.com/beyondsolitaire上支持我。现在，让我们继续节目吧。嘿，玩家们，这里是《Beyond Solitaire》带来的《悲惨世界》。

This is a fantastic initiative that I am personally excited to support. Also, if you wanna help me keep the lights on over here on the podcast, you can support me at patreon.com/beyondsolitaire. For now, though, let's get on with the show. Hey, gamers. It's Les Mis with Beyond Solitaire.

本周的播客中，我有一位非常特别的嘉宾。我们有来自《No Pun Included》的埃夫加·布拉杜基斯，很高兴再次见到你，埃夫加。你最近怎么样？

And this week on the pod, I have a very special guest. We've got Efga Bladoukis from No Pun Included, and I'm happy to see you on here again, Efga. How are doing?

我很好。你怎么样？

I'm doing great. How are you doing?

你知道的，我还不错。我在这儿。现在是早上。我正在做一个愉快的播客采访。这就是我想要的状态。

You know, I'm doing alright. I'm here. It's the morning. I'm having a nice podcast interview. That's, like, where I wanna be.

所以我觉得你和我现在处于相同的‘起床时间线’上，这简直完美。

So I I think that you and I are both in the same, like, wake up timeline right now, though, so it's perfect.

我嘛，我已经醒了一会儿了。遛了狗，给自己做了早餐，还买了些东西，现在完全清醒了，准备好录播客了。

I I mean, I've I've been awake for a while. I've I've walked the dog. I made myself breakfast, got some shopping in, fully awake now, ready to podcast.

是啊，我们这里会上演各种戏剧性场面。不，我开玩笑的。我确实想邀请你来，你知道，我们在第200期节目里有过一次简短的访谈，那次聊得很愉快，因为我们可以谈谈你制作桌游视频的方法。

Yeah. We're gonna see all kinds of drama here. No. I'm kidding. I did wanna have you on, you know, we we had a I really enjoyed having you on for, like, a short interview in episode 200 because we could've talked about your approach to making videos about board games.

我觉得花上整整一小时会很有趣。所以我想最直接的问题是，你现在在玩什么游戏，我们很快能看到相关的视频吗？

I thought it might be fun to, like, have a full hour. So I guess the obvious question is, what are you what are you playing right now that we could expect videos about soon?

最近我经常玩《沙丘：帝国》，因为我在制作一个关于这款游戏的大视频。我想我可以首次透露那个视频的标题？揭晓即将发布的内容。标题是《所有人都错了：沙丘（帝国篇）》。我不确定它是否会像我们刚完成的ARC视频那么长——那可是我们制作过最长的视频。

So I'm playing a lot of Dune Imperium lately because I'm working on a pretty big video about Dune Imperium. So I guess I guess I can I can sort of drop the title of that video, you know, for the first time? Reveal reveal the, you know, the the upcoming thing. It's everybody is wrong about Dune, brackets, Imperium. And it it is gonna I don't know if it's gonna rival the length of the ARCs video that we've just done, which I was the longest thing we've ever made.

我记得是一小时三十六分钟。虽然不确定新视频能否达到那个长度，但它确实相当长。这个项目最有趣的部分之一是，我不得不去另一个国家拍摄素材。我还得阅读不止关于《沙丘》，还有关于弗兰克·赫伯特的几本书。现在这些书就在我手边。

I think it was an hour and thirty six minutes. So I don't know if if it's gonna be that long, but it's also really quite long. And one of the most fun parts about this project was that I had to travel to a different country to take some footage for this video. I had to read a number of books about not just Dune, but Frank Herbert. So I've got them here with me.

这是我读过最糟糕的书之一，名叫《香料必流》。这本书讲的是《沙丘》的创作过程。它堪称奇特的作品，几乎重新定义了'同人小说'的概念——虽然自称权威事实，但很多内容读起来像虚构的，明显充满粉丝服务性质。这本是《通往沙丘之路》，由弗兰克·赫伯特、布莱恩·赫伯特和凯文·J·安德森合著，他们都写过《沙丘》相关作品。

This is one of the worst books I have ever ever read. This is called The Spice Must Flow, and it is it is a book about the writing of Dune. One of the most peculiar works of like, I almost wanna like, it redefines the term fan fiction because because it it presents itself as authoritative fact, but it it it it a lot of it feels fictional, and it's definitely a lot of fan service. This is the road to Dune. This is this is by Frank Herbert, Brian Herbert, and Kevin Jay Anderson, all of whom who wrote about Dune.

书里收录了《沙丘》创作过程中各种被弃用的片段，比如编辑之间的往来信件等。你可能会问：为什么花这么多时间研究《沙丘》原著，而《沙丘：帝国》不过是款卡牌构筑游戏？虽然它有沙丘主题，但两者间存在许多奇妙的平行关系，探讨这些将会非常有趣。这就是我正在筹备的下一个大项目。

And there's, like, various discarded bits about the creation of Dune, you know, letters between editors and stuff like that. And you might be rightfully asking why so much time spent reading about Dune when Dune Imperium is just kinda like a deck building game? Sure, it has the Dune theme and whatever. There are so many strange parallels between the sort of ludological journey of Dune Imperium and also Dune itself and getting into those is gonna be, I think, really interesting. So that's that's the next big project I'm working on.

我对此感到非常兴奋。

And I'm very excited about that.

是啊，听起来确实很棒。而且我最近看了你关于《Arcs》的视频，可能是我能看的你最后一个领导者视频了，因为我还没参与过《Arcs》项目，所以可以纯粹享受内容，不用觉得这是我的职责范围。不过你也为此读了一大堆科幻作品对吧？

Yeah. That actually sounds awesome. And I also so your video on Arcs was probably the last leader video from you I'll be able to watch because it's the I haven't worked on Arcs. So I can enjoy it without, like, you know, feeling like it's my star. But you read a whole bunch of sci fi, for that as well.

所以你一直在进行这类大型阅读计划

So you've been doing, like, these kind of, like, big reading projects

为了

for

制作某些视频。这是你预先规划好的吗？还是说在思考游戏设计时自然衍生出来的？最后发展成更大的项目？

some videos. Is that something that you know in advance you're gonna do? Or is that something that emerges as you think about the game? It turns into something bigger?

哦，这问题问得好。我觉得两种情况都有。有时我会刻意挑选与手头工作相关的书籍，因为它们能呼应游戏应该呈现的故事脉络。但同时我也尽量选自己真正感兴趣的内容，明白吗？

Oh, that's a great question. So I think it's both, right? Sometimes I I consciously pick up books that are adjacent to something that I'm working on because they, like, align in the sort of stories that should emerge from a game. But also I try for them to be things that I am actually interested about. You know?

比如《沙丘》，我对其产生浓厚兴趣，不是因为小说本身，而是围绕《沙丘》的叙事体系——它的诞生过程、发展演变、对读者的意义。因为在科幻迷圈子之外，《沙丘》是少数能突破次元壁的流行文化IP，就像《星球大战》或《星际迷航》。人们对它有着完全不同的神话式认知。

So with Dune, I am really interested in Dune, not because I am interested in Dune, but the sort of narrative around Dune and how it emerged and how it developed and, you know, how it changed over time, what Dune means to people. Because unlike unlike a lot of sci fi that is popular as, you know, amongst the speculative fiction kind of circles. Dune is one of those pop culture franchises that transcends that. It's like Star Wars or, you know, Star Trek or whatever. And so people have a very different mythological perspective of perspective of what that is.

因此我必须刻意做功课：不仅要读原著，还要研读关于《沙丘》的学术著作，这部分更像直接的研究工作。但像《Arcs》这种项目，我早知道自己必须这么做，因为我强烈预感《基地》系列是其灵感根基。有趣的是，做完视频后我回顾《Oath》时发现——哦对了，《Oath》的新资料片叫什么来着？《新基石》。看吧，这就很说明问题了。

And so with that I had to very consciously you know obviously read Dune but also read books that were written about Dune and and and that's kind of a more direct research research based work. But with something like Arcs, you know, again, I knew I had to do that because I had a strong suspicion that, you know, foundation is the foundation of that work And I what was funny was that, like, I was like, I hope I'm right with this. And then when I finished the video, I thought I'll check back in on Oath, and I was like, oh, the expansion for all for Oath, the new expansion is called what's it called? Oh, it's called New Foundations. Okay.

好吧。后悔没把那部分放进视频里，但我发现得有点晚了。

Okay. Regretted not putting that in the video, but I I kind of noticed that too late.

不过，我们之前一起讨论过《誓言》的原始素材吗？

Although, have we talked about the source material for oath before together?

我不确定我们讨论过。

I'm not sure that we have.

其实是《普雷丹编年史》。

So it's the chronicles of Predane.

哦，对。不。你确实跟我提过

Oh, yes. No. You did mention that to

这个。对。对。对。但实际上那些原始素材对我特别重要，因为我们制作的《暗影女王》合作模式，就是基于那些书里的死亡领主。

me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But actually, that source material ended being really important for me because the queen of shadows co op mode we made is based on, the death lord from those books.

因为我和Lurkey深入研究过背景设定并试图借鉴。所以在开始工作前——大家放心我没违背承诺——我显然会关注剧情线，毕竟我在那里工作。但接下来一个月我打算读《基地》《海伯利安》之类的书。我在想，我读过《普雷丹编年史》吗？

Because got Lurkey and I got really into the lore and tried to draw off of it. So before I start work on I'm not breaking any promises people. I'm looking at arcs obviously, because I work there. But I'm gonna be reading foundation and like Hyperion and stuff in the next, in the next month as I like, I think my, did the chronicles of Predane?

不，抱歉。无论是《基地》还是《海伯利安》，你知道的，它们都存在一些问题环绕着。我不会特别推荐它们。但探索这些作品的过程确实很有趣——天啊。

No. Sorry. The foundation and also Hyperion, you know, like, they are not they they have they have some issues surrounding them. And I I wouldn't necessarily recommend them. But, like, I but it it was interesting to explore them as oh god.

这不是双关。作为奠基性作品，你知道，很多科幻小说都建立在它们之上。有时候这种影响在背景中是无法回避的。所以重读《基地》很有意思。

This is not a pun. As foundational works, you know, like Yeah. As as something that that clearly a lot of sci fi has built on. And and sometimes that kind of like is inescapable to have that in the background. So rereading foundation was interesting.

但当我制作ARCs视频时，当时读的很多书都意外地找到了重要关联点，它们与作品形成了互补。比如金·斯坦利·罗宾逊的《极光》，我认为那是近二三十年来最优秀的科幻小说之一

But when when I was writing the ARCs video, you know, there were a lot of books I was just reading at the time that I happily found, like, important parallels and and, you know, they they complemented the work. So, you know, that whether that was like Aurora by Kim Stanley Robinson, which is, I think, one of the best sci fi books written in

哦，确实。

Oh, yeah.

它在愿景层面如此卓越——我们总听到这种科技乐观主义叙事，说人类要扩张到太空殖民一切，然后抛弃地球。而这本书如何彻底粉碎这种观点，真是令人叹为观止。我在其中发现了一些与ARCs有趣的叙事关联。不过有时候你不需要直接读原著，读周边材料也行。

Like, twenty, thirty years or something like that. And it's remarkable how how visionary it is in terms of and and how, like, you know, because we have this whole, like, tech pro narrative about, you know, like, oh, we're gonna expand into space and colonize everything and then, you know, we're gonna leave Earth behind, you know, and and how confidently that book just crushes that viewpoint. It's it's it's a sight to behold. But so the you know, but there were there were like parallels within that narrative that kind of I found interesting in in relation to arcs. But but also, like, sometimes you just have to not read the books themselves, but stuff around the books.

比如我引用了厄休拉·勒古恩为她《黑暗的左手》写的序言。那段话对理解ARCs和科幻本质非常贴切——人们贬低科幻认为它是逃避现实，但真正让他们不适的是科幻令人不安。我认为这种视角很深刻，我们总把推想小说当作轻松娱乐，但实际上...

Like, I put in a quote from Ursula K Le Guin in her own introduction to Left Hand of Darkness. Yeah. That I found incredibly pertinent to how one views arcs and that sci fi you know, people dismiss sci fi because they think it's escapist, but what they actually don't like about it when pressed on it is that it makes them uncomfortable. And and I think that's that's, you know, such a kind of a profound way of looking at it because we're we're always thinking about, like, speculative fiction as as something that's kind of just like a goofy fun time. But actually Yeah.

更多时候它的目的是刺痛你，让你思考未曾考虑过的问题。这对ARCs非常契合，因为这款游戏就是要你沉浸其中，思考行为动机以及你在游戏中构建的叙事本质。

Most often, its purpose is to probe you, you know, in a way that makes you consider the unconsidered. And I I think that's very appropriate for ARCs because it's a game that really wants you to sit with it and and and think about why you're doing the things that you're doing and what kind of narrative you're actually creating out of play. Yeah.

不，这很合理。我确实想特别提一下《极光》。其实几年前我和科尔聊天时，提到过我对科幻作品难以入门，不知道该如何欣赏。

No. That makes sense. I do wanna have a side shout out for Aurora. So actually, I was talking to Cole, like, years ago now. And I mentioned that I had a hard time getting into sci fi and I didn't really know how to appreciate it.

他有没有推荐什么书？这就是他当时推荐的那本。我采纳了他的建议，几天后就在为一艘宇宙飞船哭泣。所以真的，《极光》，去读吧。

Did he have a recommendation? And that is the book that he recommended. So I took him up on it and a couple days later I was crying over a spaceship. So Yeah. Aurora, read it.

就算我们从这次对话中一无所获。

If we get nothing else from this.

是啊，它真的太棒了

Yeah. It's such a great

确实非常出色，就是那种无与伦比的好。我很喜欢你做这类项目，这让我特别开心。不过你毕竟是YouTuber，应该有自己的发布节奏要遵循吧？

It's really good. It's just really, really good. So I love that you're doing projects like this. It makes me really happy. But you're a YouTuber, you have probably some sort of schedule to keep to.

是的。

Yes.

那你现在是如何平衡大型和小型项目之间的时间分配呢？

So what does your balance look like between larger and smaller projects right now?

我觉得这始终是最棘手的事情之一，我现在必须同时应对。因为我们在家工作，我们住在一起，工作在一起，生活和工作都在同一个地方。对吧？所以我和伊莱恩确实为此挣扎，尽管投身于那些大家反响热烈的大项目会很美好——它们通常，虽然不是总是，但大多时候表现非常好。

It's always like this is I think this is one of the trickiest things that I have to juggle right now. Because we work from home, and we both so we live together and we work together and we work in the same place where we live. Right? So me and Elaine definitely struggle with this because as much as it would be lovely to just kinda launch yourself into these big projects that everyone responds to really well. And they they always well, not always, but most of the time they do really well.

你知道，人们对这类视频很感兴趣。即使它们表现不佳，那些真正喜欢的人也会给予非常积极的回应，这总是让人感到很有成就感。但归根结底，作为小众中的小众，你必须某种程度上‘喂养算法’。这样说可能很愤世嫉俗，‘喂养算法’这个词本身就带有许多隐含意义，听起来像是我们有时不得不产出低质内容。但其实我们并不这么看。我发现，当我真正热切关心所谈论的主题时，我的工作状态最佳。

You know, people are interested in in these sorts of videos. And even if they don't do well, the people, you know, that are into them respond to them so positively that it it always feels very validating to do them. But at the end of the day, being like a niche within a niche, you know, you have to you have to kind of feed the algorithm. And and and it's this is a very cynical way of looking at it and saying even saying, you know, feed the algorithm kind of it has a lot of connotations surrounding that that makes it, you know, like sound like, you know, sometimes we have to put out slop. But it's really not the way we see it either, you know, I I I found that I work best when I actually really passionately care about speaking about whatever subject that that I'm choosing to speak about.

过去我制作过一些现在感觉毫无共鸣的视频。制作时我就隐约意识到，在某个环节我做出了错误的选择，选错了题材。但一旦启动就无法停止，对吧？所以我只能尽力完成，做到最好，但……

And I have made videos in the past that I feel, you know, kinda nothing about now. And and I could feel when I was making them that somewhere along the way, I made the wrong call. I made the wrong decision in what to cover, but now the gears are in motion, and I can't stop. Right? Like, so I have to go through with it and then I will do the best work that I can but.

是的。我注意到这些通常是我会忘记的视频，后来回看时会惊讶：这是我做的？这个东西存在过，还有人看过它。

Yeah. I've noticed that like those are the videos that I usually forget like, you know, and then I go back and go, I've made this. This is something I've made. This exists out there. People have watched this.

我自己都不记得了。如果连我都不记得，那它对观众还有什么价值和意义？所以我认为答案是：我必须尝试投入，虽然不总能成功。这真的是我关心的事吗？

I don't remember it, you know. So if I don't remember it, you know, like what what value and worth is it to people? So I think the answer to that question is that I have to, you know, I I have to try engage and I don't always succeed. Like, is this something I actually care about? You know?

还是说这只是转瞬即逝的兴致，一时着迷后就会遗忘？这很棘手，我并非总能把握准确。比如现在，我就在纠结是否要解说《护戒使者的命运》。

Or is it just like a temporary flight of fancy that I am fascinated with for like a hot minute and then I'll forget about it. Right? And so so it's it's it's tricky. And I don't always get it right. So like, right now, I'm really debating whether I want to cover Fate of the Fellowship.

因为这是指环王题材的游戏，我玩得很开心。但我不确定：究竟是托尔金本身的魅力让我着迷，而游戏其实没那么有趣？还是游戏本身确实有趣，不止因为托尔金元素？所以我需要先花时间体验游戏，才能决定是否要谈论它。

Because that's the ring to pandemic game, and I'm having a very good time with it. You know? But but it I don't know if it's just, you know, like, my fascination with Tolkien and the game isn't actually that interesting. Or is the game actually quite interesting and it's not just my fascination with Tolkien? So, you know, I have to spend time kind of with the game and play the game before I even wanna figure out whether I want to talk about it.

答案很可能是肯定的。我确实如此，因为我在那款游戏中玩得很开心。但我不想做出错误的选择，去覆盖那些我可能会后悔投入大量时间的内容。因为我们制作的每一个视频，即便是较小的那些，它们都耗费了我...我每次制作视频时都会忘记它们需要多少时间。比如，你知道，你会花上几天时间拍摄和剪辑，然后突然意识到：等等，这真的需要这么多时间吗？

And the answer is probably yes. I do because I'm having I'm having a good time with that game. But but I don't I don't wanna make the wrong call and cover something that I will regret spending so much time on. Because every video we do make, even the smaller ones, they they take I I I every video I make, I forget how much time they take. Like and then, you know, you spend, like, days filming and editing and and you go, wait, does this really take that this much time?

我不记得这需要这么多时间。但每次事实都证明，确实如此。确实如此，埃夫卡。所以，是的，我想这是一个非常冗长的回答，但我正在尽力选择正确的项目来覆盖，即使是较小的项目。而且我开始觉得，即使按照我们的标准，我们认为是小的项目实际上也并不小。

I don't remember this taking this much time. And every time, I was like, yes, it does. It does, Efka. So, yeah, I guess I guess that it's a very long winded answer, but but I I am trying my best to pick the right projects to cover even when they are smaller projects. And I'm starting to feel like even even by our standards, like, what we consider small is not actually small.

你知道吗？因为它们都需要大量的工作来完成。

You know? Because all of them take a lot of work to do.

是的。你这么说很有趣，因为我觉得大多数报道《Fate of the Fellowship》的人，包括我在内，当我更努力地在YouTube上发布内容时，可能就直接发布一些东西了。甚至不会在决定是否为其制作视频之前玩很多次。我认为大多数人基本上就是想制作视频。所以，这是你一直以来的态度，还是随着频道多年运营、逐渐明确自己想成为什么样的评论者而发展出来的？

Yeah. It's interesting you say this because I feel like most people covering Fate of the Fellowship, including me, like, when I was working harder to be good about posting on YouTube, would probably just post something. And not play it a bunch before even deciding whether to make a video for it. I think people just want to make the video for the most part. So is that is this an attitude that you've always had, or is this something that's kind of, like, developed over years of doing the channel and kind of figuring out who you wanna be as as a commentator.

这绝对是逐渐发展出来的。我以前更加随心所欲，有时候...你知道，我现在已经变得很擅长不只是因为想制作视频就去制作。我以前会想，不，我就是真的很想制作一个视频。有时候我会从一个不够坚实的基础开始，这通常意味着没有充分准备脚本，然后就想，哦，这部分随便即兴发挥一下，你知道的，也没关系。

It's definitely something that's developed. I used to be a lot more kind of freewheeling and sometimes you know, I've I've gotten really good about not just, you know, making videos because I feel like making a video. I I used to be like, no. I just really wanna make a video. And sometimes I would start with a basis that isn't strong enough, and and that usually means, like, not scripting things enough and kinda going, oh, this bit, whatever, I'll just improvise, you know, and it's fine.

而且我发现，当我必须即兴发挥时，我可以做到。我认为我可以做得不错，但这样做让我感到不那么自在，对我来说也没那么有趣。我更喜欢有一个结构化的东西，你知道，我可以在此基础上构建。有时候你甚至有一个完成的脚本，你会觉得，好的，这感觉很扎实，我准备好拍摄了。

And I I think I found that when I have to improvise, I can do it. I I think I can do it okay but I don't feel as comfortable doing it and it's it's not as much fun for me. I much rather have something structured that that, you know, I I can kind of build on. And then sometimes you you you even have like a finished script and you'll you'll be like, okay, this feels solid. I'm ready to film.

然后你开始拍摄，突然意识到：不，不，不，不。这...这是不对的。

And then you start filming and go, no. No. No. No. This this is wrong.

这感觉不太对劲。你知道，得回头重来。于是你返回去修改脚本，然后再继续。但现在，嗯，我觉得自己以前更倾向于直接行动，觉得‘管他呢，先做了再说，反正会很有趣’。

This doesn't feel right. You know, go back. And and so you go back and, you know, change the script and then go again. But but, yeah, like, I I I think I used to be a lot more like, yeah, let's just do it. You know, this is gonna be fun.

随着我们工作范围的扩大，我们做了更多规划，更多准备。因此每件事都耗时更久，所以你会更珍惜这些时间——我自己的时间，伊莱恩的时间。于是我不再轻易说‘随便搞搞就行’这种话。

And and as what we do sort of expanded, you know, we we we plan out a lot more. We prepare a lot more. And so everything takes more time. And so you kind of wanna be respectful of that time, of my own time, of Elaine's time. And and so, you know, I don't wanna just be like, yeah.

‘总会有办法的’这种想法变了。我现在努力更严谨、更有条理，这自然扩大了工作范畴。但就像树木整形师的工作逻辑——

It'll be fine. You know? I I am trying to be a lot more rigorous and structured, and so that expands the scope. But then because it's like an arborist. Right?

明白吗？当你更尊重自己的作品时，作品体量就会变大；而作品体量越大，你就越需要保持这种尊重。

You know? Like, you're trying to be more respectful of your work. And because of that, the work becomes bigger. And because the work is bigger, you're trying to be more respectful of your work.

明白。很有道理。对了，我特别好奇你们的脚本长什么样？

Yep. No. It makes sense. So okay. I'm very curious about what your scripts look like.

我从不写脚本，毕竟我是个懒鬼，只喜欢闲聊。但你们做脚本的话，具体详细到什么程度？是逐字稿？还是只列要点？

I don't script anything because I'm a bum. I just wanna I just wanna chat. But, you know, when you do scripts, like, how detailed are we talking? Are we talking, like, word for word? Are you a bullet point guy?

还有个问题——你和埃琳娜合作项目时，毕竟她的摄影也是你们频道的重要部分，你们会详细到连每个镜头都预先规划好吗？

And then, like, when you and Elena are working on a project, how much of, like I mean, her cinematography is also, like, a major part of your channel. Are y'all also, like, planning down to the shot?

所以，关于那个弧线视频，我记得Elaine拍了超过，大概肯定超过100个镜头。我想说有120个左右，但可能记错了，可能有点夸张。不过我觉得她拍了大约120个B-roll镜头。我知道这些都是她预先规划好的，对吧？

So, like, for the arcs video, I think Elaine did over, like, something like a definitely over a 100. I I wanna say, like, a 120 or something like that, but I might be wrong. I I might be, like, making this unburned up, But I think she did about a 120 shots of b roll. I know that she planned all of those out. Right?

我知道她开始拍摄时，每个镜头都有详细计划，因为如果不这样做，最终会反复搭建和拆除场景拍相似的镜头。明白吗？所以必须清楚哪些是展示卡片的镜头，哪些是俯拍桌面的镜头，比如平移拍摄那种。

Like, I know that when she started filming, she had a structured plan of what every one of those shots was going to be because if you don't do that, what you end up doing is you end up doing a lot of setup and tear down for very similar shots. Right? So you need to know which shots are like, this is just a card. I'm showing a card. Which shots are like, this is a top down board, you know, like, and I'm panning.

还有哪些镜头需要元素进出、背景布置等等。这非常机械化、技术化。如果不提前规划而是按时间顺序拍，就会用相同角度反复拍20次——因为跟着时间线走。但如果按类型分组拍摄，比如所有需要卡片的镜头一次性拍完，效率就高多了。

Or which shots are like, hey, you know, this element needs to come in and this element needs to come out and these are the things that are in the background. You know, so it's very it's very mechanical. It's very technical. So if you don't do that, if you don't plan everything out and you just do things chronologically, you'll end up, like, doing the same angle, you know, 20 different times because, like, you know, it's it's moving in the chronological pace. Whereas if you group group everything up and say these are the shots that need all the cards, you just set that angle at once, and then you do all the cards and stuff like that.

对，我知道她做了全面规划。虽然游戏是我们一起玩的，观点是一起讨论的，重点是一起决定的，但具体分镜我反而不做计划。

Right. So I know that she plans everything out. I don't plan that out myself even though I'm the one who We play the games together. We talk about them together. We decide what we wanna say together and what's important.

然后由我来写脚本。视频里98%的台词都是写死的，只有2%的调整空间，比如发现某处表达不顺时需要微调。

But I then go and write the script. And Mhmm. What I say in the video is usually about, like, the words themselves. The 98% is has been, like, written down. This, you know, 2% wiggle room for, like, this doesn't work.

即便写作时我会先写三段然后试读，听着觉得没问题，但实际拍摄时还是会发现'这段不行得改'。所以会有即兴调整，不过台词基本会按写好的来。

I need to change this a little bit, you know, or, you know, because when you write it, you you even though when I write, I'll often, like, I'll write three paragraphs and I'll be like, okay. Now I'm gonna read these out loud in voice. You know? But but then, you know, like and that sounds fine and you think, oh, yeah. This is good.

此外我还需要规划场景结构，比如该在什么时候切换画面等等。

But then you're actually filming and you're going, oh this doesn't work. So I need to change something. So there is that. You know, but yeah, the words I will write, you know, almost forbidding to what they are in the video. But then I also need to plan out, like, scene structure in terms of, like, hey.

这里，我在谈论的是玩家面板上发生的事情。对吧？所以我需要考虑从什么角度来展示它。这里需要一些规划，但这类场景结构比较松散，通常会在我们开始拍摄前才确定。我们会重新规划这些场景，因为我们不是按时间顺序拍摄的。

Here, I'm talking about something that happens, like, on a player's board. Right? So I need to think about what angle I am gonna show that from. And so there's some planning there, but that kind of scene structure is a bit loose, and these scenes will, like, normally come just before we start filming. We we will plan them out again because we don't shoot chronologically.

但大部分时候，这部分有点即兴发挥的性质。有时我会给伊莱恩写个小纸条，在剧本上注明我希望这段花絮具体是什么样子，因为我觉得这样效果更好。不过大多数时候，我会留给她去规划和安排，按照她的想法来。然后，你知道，我们会用那种老套但可靠的拍板技术，她拍摄120个不同的场景，然后我得在Premiere Pro里把它们剪辑成有逻辑的内容。

But mostly that that's that's kind of the slightly improv y bit. And sometimes I will write to Elaine, like a little note on the script saying, this is I what I want this specific part of b roll to be because I think it works if it's that and not something else. But most of the time, I just leave that for her to plan out and structure and however she sees that. And then, you know, we use like the old tried and true clappable technology of her filming a 120 different scenes that I then have to put together in Premiere Pro in some sort of a way that makes sense.

这非常耗费精力，我对此充满敬意，尤其对比我自己那种草率的工作方式。但你也提到被算法困住的感受。当你为视频投入这么多时，如果视频表现不佳怎么办？还有那些小细节，比如我们之前讨论的缩略图之类，你是如何确保作品以最佳状态呈现的？

This is very labor intensive and I just respect this so much, especially compared to my own sort of slapdash work. But this also, you talk about being stuck thinking about the algorithm. So when you're putting this much into videos, what happens if you have a flop? And what kind of like, you know, we were talking about thumbnails and stuff before that. Like, what are all the little things that are going into making sure that your work is like shown off in a way that gives it the best shot at life?

首先我会小小地哭一场，感受一下沮丧。这很正常，对吧？但之后...

Well, I did this the first thing that happens is that I have a little cry, you know, and feel a little That's legit. For myself. Right? You know? But no.

这就是工作的本质，你不能纠结太久。必须继续前进，吸取教训。比如下次我们会调整做法。缩略图确实是重要环节——你必须把作品包装得吸引人。我想出版商们会感同身受，这和桌游封面的设计是一个道理。

Well, it just, you know, it's the nature of the work that you just you can't dwell on it too much. You have to move on. You learn some lessons, you know, like, you go, well, now we're doing that again, you know? But I I think I think the the yeah, thumbnails definitely a big part of like, you have to you have to present the work in in an appealing package. And I imagine publishers will probably relate to this because it's the same way with, board game covers, you know?

你创造了这个桌游，你相信它的价值。但要让人们购买，还需要做另一套看似相关却未必能代表作品本质的营销。有时候制作缩略图时，我明明知道哪种能带来流量，却故意不用，因为感觉太取巧了。不是低俗的那种，而是缺乏诚意的捷径。

Like, you made this board game. You believe in this board game. But then there's this, like, entirely other thing that you have to do to make it actually sell that feels, like, connected to your work, but not necessarily representative of your work. Because sometime I I I think that that's part of it because when I make thumbnails, sometimes I deliberately don't want to put the thumbnail that I think will make the video very successful because it feels a little bit icky and trite. Not icky as in, like, gross, but icky as in, like, this is this is the easy way out and I don't wanna do it.

但你又不得不这么做，毕竟没人希望视频沉没在YouTube的坟墓里。不过说实话，我经常搞不定缩略图。比如刚发布的《老王之冠》视频，第一天的数据就很糟糕。

But but like you have to do it because because, you know, you don't you don't want your video to be in the YouTube graveyard. But like, yeah. I don't know. You don't know I often don't get it right, you know, with thumbnails. I like, we just did the the old king's crown video and the when the first like, day was terrible.

比如，那个视频表现不佳。在视频发布后的前十五分钟内我就知道了。只要看看数据就能明白，哦，根本没人看这个。所以我不得不迅速更换了视频的缩略图和标题，原来的标题是《老国王王冠的双重勇气》，我觉得这是个很有诗意的标题，能代表视频内容。而现在标题改成了《2025年最令人兴奋的桌游》，你懂的，

Like, that video was not doing well. And I knew it within the first fifteen minutes of that video launching. Just by just by seeing what the numbers are, you can tell like, oh, no one's watching this. So I had to quickly change the thumbnail and the title of the video because the title was originally the two bravery of the old king's crown, which I think is a very poetic title that's representative of of what the video is about. And now the title is the most exciting board game of 2025, you know,

没错。大家立刻就点进去了。不过我得说，你缩略图里戴的那顶王冠太棒了，我好想要。

late Oh, yeah. Know. Everybody immediately clicked that. Although, I will say that the crown that you're wearing in the thumbnail is fantastic, and I want it.

谢谢。我也超爱这顶王冠。很棒对吧？其实它就是个纸板王冠，但看起来真的很不错。

Thank you. I love that crown. It's so good, isn't it? Like, it's it's really just a cardboard crown. It it looks really good.

制作它的人很懂行。我直接从Etsy上买的，当时就觉得这顶王冠看起来太棒了必须买。结果收到后发现，哦，原来是纸板做的。

The person that made it knew what they were doing. I I just got it off of Etsy. I was like, this looks this this crown looks really good. I'm gonna buy it. And then it came, and I'm like, oh, it's cardboard.

好吧。不过确实，它在镜头前看起来很棒。

Okay. But yeah. No. It it looks good on camera.

真心话。

For real.

戴着它让我感觉充满力量。你知道吗？就像在说，没错。

It felt empowering wearing that. You know? Like, I was like, yeah.

我刚点开YouTube浏览视频，首先跳出来的就是你捏着鼻子把门票直接扔进垃圾桶的画面。

So I just clicked on I just went over YouTube and clicked on videos, And, like, the thing that's showing up first is you holding your nose, tossing tickets right into a trash can.

是啊。

Yeah.

你觉得那是种轻松的解决方式，还是反而更费劲？

Did that feel like the easy way out, or did that feel like the hard way?

我觉得是种有趣的方式。那纯粹是我自己想做的，懂我意思吗？

I felt like the fun way. That's just what I wanted to That was just for me. You know?

天啊。好吧，那我有个问题。你在多大程度上会妥协于需求？毕竟频道运营得好是你的生计来源。

Oh man. So, okay. Here's a question then. To what degree do you allow your need? Because I mean, it is a need for your channel to continue to do well because it is your livelihood.

没错。为了让工作那部分能成功，你有没有因为要平衡商业性和艺术性，砍掉过自己想做的企划？或是因此克制过创作冲动？

Yes. For, for that aspect of your work to, you know, for it to be successful in that way, like, you ever nixed a project that you wanted to do, but you just didn't think it would do well or like held yourself back from something because you were balancing between the commercial and artistic aspects of this work?

我常因感到无聊而放弃企划。有时我会试图蹭热点话题，心想'这个内容肯定能火'对吧？但实际体验游戏后，却发现讲不出有趣的故事。

I often nix projects because I find myself too bored with with like, I I like, I find that sometimes I will try to cover something that people are very excited to hear about. You know? And I was like, I think I think I should cover this because this will do numbers. Right? And then I spend time with the game, and I find that I don't have an interesting story to tell.

对吧？这一直是我判断该报道什么、不该报道什么的标准。就像别管那些炒作什么的。我这里有个有趣的故事吗？对吧？

Right? And that's kind of always been my barometer on on what I should be covering and what I shouldn't. As like forget about like the hype or whatever. Have have I got an interesting story here? Right?

而且，我这么说并不是指视频必须是正面的或负面的。对吧？比如，我有没有一个好的角度？对吧？我能说出一些别人没说过的东西吗？

And by by that, I don't necessarily even mean that the video has to be positive or negative or whatever. Right? Like, have I got a good angle? Right? Can I say something that hasn't been said?

明白吗？所以对于《旧王之冠》来说，这很简单，因为几乎没人报道过这款游戏。有一些关于成品的评测。因为，你知道，在众筹阶段有很多报道，但

You know? So with the old king's crown, that was pretty easy because there was almost no coverage of this game. There were a few reviews of it that were of the finished product. Because there were there were a bunch of, you know, like, there was a bunch of coverage of it when it was on crowdfunding but

这款游戏。我预览过它。

the game. I previewed it.

是的。现在游戏已经大不相同了，对吧？我知道他们做了很多改动。所以，关于成品的报道不多，主要是因为游戏还没正式发布。但我对它感觉非常强烈。

Yeah. The game is substantially different now, right? Like, I know that they've done a lot of changes. So, there wasn't that much with the finished product and mostly because, you know, the game's not out yet. But I've I felt very strongly about it.

我觉得这会是——我爱这款游戏。我觉得这款游戏太棒了。我真的很喜欢它。我的角度很简单。嘿。

I felt like this is this is gonna be this I love like, I I love this game. I think this game is absolutely great. I really, really like it. And and I my angle was very simple. Like, hey.

你知道，我是奥利。我有机会向很多人介绍这款来自首次发行的出版商、首次设计的设计师的游戏。所以，它还没引起注意，但也许我可以做到。也许我可以成为那个引起关注的人。所以这里的角度很简单。

You know, I'm Orly. I I get to tell a lot of people about this game from a first time publisher, first time designer. So, like, it's not on the radar yet, you know, but I maybe can do that. Maybe I can be the person that kind of brings attention to it. So the angle was very simple here.

你知道吗？这其实是个很简单的故事。只需要对一款游戏感到兴奋，这很容易因为我本来就热爱游戏。然后试着把这种热情传递给观众，这过程本身就很有趣。

You know? It's it's a very simple story. Just get excited about a game, which is easy because I love it. And, you know, like, just just try and kind of relate that to people. So that's fun.

但有时候事情会更复杂些。比如《沙丘：帝国》这款备受喜爱的游戏，我正在制作的视频特意取名为《所有人都误解了沙丘（帝国篇）》，这个挑衅性标题其实是我真心认同的观点——虽然听起来像在引战，但我的探讨方式绝对没有攻击性。

But sometimes it's more complex than that. You know? Like and and again, with for example, Dune Imperium is a much beloved game. And the video that I'm working on, you know, like, very consciously calling it everybody's wrong about Dune, brackets Imperium, is is a very provocative title. But, like, but it is it is it is something that I actually genuinely mean, and I don't wanna you know, it sounds antagonistic, but I actually I don't think I explore it in an antagonistic way at all.

我只是认为大家都忽略了关键点。这个故事在我看来很有意思，也希望观众能产生共鸣。

I just think we all missed a trick. And, you know, I I think that is an interesting story to me. You know? And I think I hope that people can relate to that. You know?

就像我之前做的视频《这叫性唤起》，这标题本身就很有喜剧效果对吧？

So or, you know, I did a video called This Is Arousal, which I think is a very funny title. You know?

那个标题确实很棒。

That was great title.

对吧？光是想到这个标题就让我忍俊不禁。不过

Right? Like, that's it tickled me. But

是吗。抱歉打断。

Did it. Sorry.

要知道，那个故事的诞生完全是个意外，因为我当时正在制作一个关于教程和规则手册的视频。是的，在这个过程中，一个截然不同的故事浮现了出来。对吧？我当时就觉得，这显然是个更有趣的故事。

With that with that, you know, that story emerged out of something else entirely because I was writing a video about, like, tutorials and rule books. And Yeah. I through the process of that, an entirely different story emerged. Right? And I was like, this is a much more interesting story.

所以我决定放弃那个我自己都不感兴趣的愚蠢视频——就是关于教程和规则书的那个——转而追逐更有趣的故事线索，最终这变成了关于棋盘游戏兴奋度的研究。

So I'm gonna bend this stupid video that I don't feel about, you know, tutorials and rule books and actually, you know, chase the more interesting story, which turned out to be the study about arousal in board games.

据我所知，这方面研究可太少了，希恩。

Too little of that from what I know, Shea.

不是那种下流的意思。这里的兴奋度指的是出汗，我们在讨论生理反应。

It's not dirty. It's not that kind of arousal. It's sweat. It's talking about sweat.

没错。我很欣赏你谈论视频创作时寻找故事线索的方式。虽然观众可能只把你看作演员或视频博主，但你是否有时更认同自己作家的身份？

Yes. Yeah. So I like the way that you talk about you're looking for a story in your videos. So, I mean, I think that people could just see you as like an actor, a person who has videos, but, do you maybe see yourself more as a writer sometimes?

当然。

Oh yeah.

因为你选择的媒介虽然是视听形式，但背后的创作过程完全是另一种维度。

Because it seems like the medium you're choosing is visual and audio, but the process behind it is something else.

哦，我百分百是个作家。我有创意写作学位。大概从17岁起，我就一直把自己视为作家。从那时起，我本能地尝试写作，立刻产生了共鸣，从此我明白这辈子只想写作。至于视频这部分，我也不知道是怎么开始的。

Oh, I'm 100% a writer. I have a I have a creative writing degree. Like, so, you know, I always saw myself as a writer since I was 17, I think. I instinctively from then on, like I tried it and something immediately clicked and I knew my entire life from then on that all I wanna do is write, really. The video part, I don't know where that came from.

我确实对视频创作这种艺术形式和过程很着迷，而YouTube是适合的平台，因为我没有受过专业训练。我就是个拿着相机的普通人。抱歉，重新说——我就是个拿着相机的白痴。

There was definitely a part of me that was fascinated with creation of video as an art form as a process and YouTube is the right platform for that because I'm not trained in it or anything like that. I'm just like a guy, you know, with a camera. Sorry. Let me rephrase that. I'm just an idiot with a camera.

在YouTube上你可以实验，即使不太懂也能尝试。通过这个过程或许能学到东西。视频对我来说是段有趣的旅程，现在仍是。当觉得枯燥时，我就提醒自己这一点。

And and like, you know, with YouTube you can experiment. You can try things without knowing really what you're doing. And through the process of that, maybe learn something. So video was a fun journey for me and it still continues to be. And I think when it gets really sloggy, I try to remind myself of that.

是的，这不是我最热衷的事，但它是场有趣的冒险。既然已经建立了这个有点傻的平台，这就是我的阵地。不知道Elaine怎么想。

Yeah. It's not the thing that I'm most passionate about, but it is an adventure and a fun adventure. But, like, if if I could, now that I've built myself this silly platform, you know, you know, that's that's where I am. That's where I do things. I don't know how Elaine feels about it.

某种程度上我知道她完全不喜欢出镜，所以现在她不露面了，反正我们能做到这点。但她很喜欢拍B-roll素材，觉得特别满足。我们分工很完美，因为我不太喜欢拍摄。

Like, I I mean, to an extent, I do know she doesn't like being on camera at all, and that's why she's not on camera anymore because we can allow for that. But she loves doing b roll. You know? It's this is something that she finds very satisfying. So, you know, we've kind of slaughtered perfectly because I don't I don't like filming things that much.

但我提醒自己这是场有趣的冒险。如果可以选择，我可能只会写作。我并不特别喜欢出镜，只是讲述有趣故事的欲望超越了这点，所以才会出现在镜头前。

But, you know, yeah, like I remind myself that this is this is a fun adventure and it's fun to do. But if I could just write, I think I would just write. You know? I I don't particularly relish being on camera. I just I think the the desire to tell an interesting story kinda supersedes that, and so I am on camera if that makes sense.

哇，我不知道你有创意写作学位，太酷了。早就看出你爱读书，因为聊书的方式太明显了，但不知道你这么专业，真厉害。

Yeah. I did not know about the creative writing degree. That's super cool. I I already knew you were a reader because the way you talk about books is like, it makes it really obvious, but I didn't know you're that's really neat.

是的。这是我第二次上大学。第一次我读的是英语专业，但没有完成学业。当时学的是英语和翻译，直到很晚我才意识到，这其实并不是我真正热爱或感兴趣的东西。我真正想做的是写作。

Yeah. I it's I it's it was second time in university. I the first time I was doing an English degree and I didn't finish it. Like, I was doing English and translation and I very late in the process, I've realized it's not something I'm actually passionate about or interested in. And what I actually wanna do is writing.

所以我搬到了另一个国家，然后攻读了一个创意写作学位。那段经历很有趣，我很享受。我还读了一个硕士，同样没有完成，因为我又一次发现这不是我想做的事情。就这样。

So I moved countries and and then got myself a creative writing degree. And it was fun. I enjoyed it. I did a master's as well that I also didn't finish because once again I realized this is not something I wanna be doing. And yeah.

不，我真的很喜欢写作。它很有趣。对我来说，这份工作最有意思的部分是在我们反复玩游戏之后，坐下来把这些经历编织成一个故事，把所有片段串联起来，将我们的体验置于一个连贯的叙事中。这真的很有成就感。

No. I I really like writing. It's fun. And I think the most fun part of the job for me is after we've, you know, played the games as many times as we needed to to sit down and kind of make a story out of that, to put everything together, you know, to to take all the experiences we had and contextualize them and put like a through line through it. Is really rewarding.

这确实很有趣，因为当你最终完成并拥有一个剧本时，感觉就像我们通过玩游戏所经历的旅程在某种程度上被反映了出来。而且当伊莱恩也这么说时，我就知道自己做得不错，因为她很擅长编辑我的作品，能发现哪些地方有效或无效。如果她说‘你成功地把我们的体验转化成了文字’，那就说明我做到了。

It is really fun because when you do finish and you do have like a script, it it feels like like that journey that we went through through playing these games is somehow reflected in that. Yeah. And and I know I've done well when Elaine says that as well because, you know, she's very good at editing me and and picking up on things that work or don't work. But if she says, yeah, you know, you you've managed to somehow put on paper what we experienced. You know?

我就会想，哦，太好了。这次我搞定了。真棒。

And I'm like, oh, yeah. Okay. I nailed it this time. That's cool.

这确实很酷。我最初决定和你聊聊是因为你做了一个关于‘所有游戏都是政治性的’的视频。嗯。我非常同意你的观点，游戏都是文化产物。不过，作为一个在沙漠里挖过很多陶片的人，我也可以告诉你，并非所有文化产物都那么有趣。

That is really cool. So I initially decided, like, I just had to have a chat with you because you made a video about all games being political. Mhmm. And I do very much agree with you that games are all cultural objects. However, having dug up lots of potsherds in the desert, I can also tell you that not all cultural objects are that interesting.

所以我在思考——对我来说，我倾向于报道历史题材的游戏，这是我最喜欢的类型，因为我觉得其中的故事最为明显。你可以很快判断出‘这个人想表达什么？我认为他成功了吗？’然后查阅真实的历史背景资料来验证，毕竟这是历史游戏，能给我一些依据。对于那些没有明显历史背景的游戏，你如何寻找其中的故事呢？

So when you think about so for me, I think I gravitate towards covering historical games and that's what I like the best because I feel like the story is the most obvious. Like you can very quickly assess what is this person trying to cover? Do I think it was successful? And like, let me look at actual background information that I can verify because it's a history game to give myself some grounding. How do you look for that kind of story in games that don't have such obvious footing?

那么即使它们都是文化产物，你认为所有游戏都有故事吗？

And then even if they're all cultural objects, do you think that all games have stories?

我确实这么认为。我觉得任何事物都有故事，对吧？问题在于——如果我说错了请纠正——关键在于意图对吗？

I I do. I think everything has a story. Right? The question is, I think and correct me if I'm wrong. Right?

这里的问题在于创作意图对吗？因为当我们问'这个游戏有故事吗'时，我们是指作者有意设计了这个故事？还是说这里根本存在某种故事？

Is the question here intent? Right? Like, because because when when we ask, like, does this game have a story? Do we mean, did the author intend for the story to be there? Or or, like, do we mean, like, is there a story here at all?

噢，我认为绝对不能包含创作意图，部分原因是作者在作品面世的那一刻就失去了对故事的控制权，无论他们原本想表达什么。同时也因为...

Oh, I think, definitely, you can't include intent, partially because I think that authors lose control of their story or whatever they thought it was the moment it leaves them. But also because I

考虑到作者的深度。

think the depth of the author.

噢，完全同意。但我也认为我们都在无意中表达着什么，即使自以为什么都没说。

Oh, absolutely. But I also think that we're all unintentionally saying something, even if we think we're saying nothing.

没错。这基本上就是我的观点。你看，作者原本想讲什么故事其实不重要。关键是任何事物都有故事，问题在于这个故事是否有趣。

Right. And and and that's kind of, you know, that's my take on it really. You know, that that, like, it doesn't matter really what the intended story was. But, like, you know, every everything has a story. The question is whether that story is interesting.

你知道吗？大多数时候，尤其是那些相当抽象的游戏，你看，好吧。让我不那么委婉地说吧。每年都有成千上万的桌游面世，其中大部分并不那么有趣。

You know? And and most of the time, it you know, with with especially, like, fairly abstract games, you know, like, okay. Let's let, you know, let me be less diplomatic. Thousands of board games come out every year. Most of them are not that interesting.

对吧？老实说，它们大多也就那样。甚至可能连还行都算不上。

Right? Like, let's be honest. Like, most of them are fine. Right? Or not even fine.

直接说吧。但但但有些游戏，我觉得，有时会无意中变得有趣，就是你看着它觉得没什么，但越琢磨就越...就像那个两个人戳东西的表情包，在中间戳来戳去。快做点什么啊，懂吗？对。

Just go. But but but there are games, right? That are sometimes, I think, unintentionally interesting, you know, like, where you look at it and go, well, this is nothing, but the more you start like, you know, like like that meme of like the two persons poking something, you know, like, in the center. Come on, do something, you know? Yeah.

就像你漫不经心地戳着它，突然发现，哇，这里面的门道比我想象的多多了。这常常很滑稽，我觉得。游戏有几乎无限的潜力变得无意中搞笑。

Like, you you kinda just poke at it like lackadaisically and then suddenly go, wait, woah, there's there's way more here than I expected. You know? And that's all that's often funny, I think. You know? I think games have, like, almost unlimited scope to be unintentionally funny.

因为有时候，制作者可能是很认真地做的，但结果却非常荒唐。我觉得这其中有种幽默感。发现这种幽默并加以发挥，用你自己荒诞的方式。我这个人特别喜欢夸张。

Because sometimes, like, whoever made them, I think maybe made them, like, very seriously, but the end result is is very silly. And and and I think there is kind of a humor in that. Right? And recognizing that humor and expounding upon it, you know, sometimes in your own absurd way. I I have I I love exaggeration as a person.

知道吗？我喜欢把小事夸大。所以如果我对一个简单的桌游过度分析到极致，可能会得出非常搞笑的结果。这本身就是一种故事——把可能不好玩的游戏分析得如此荒谬，反而能给人带来更多乐趣。

You know? So I I like to take something that's small and make it way bigger than it needs to be. And so if if I take, like, a very, like, you know, simple board game and overanalyze it to death, I think you you can come out with something that is hilarious. You know? And that is a kind of story because if you can, you know, you can you can, I think, sometimes take a game that, you know, maybe isn't that fun to play, but, like, analyze it in such a way that makes it kind of preposterous and therefore brings more joy to people than it otherwise would?

这样讲明白吗？

Does that make sense?

确实如此。这也让我思考，其实这是个很好的问题想请教你。你既是作家，又是读者，还是游戏玩家。你知道吗，我常想我们总喜欢谈论桌游如何讲故事，叙事型桌游、开放世界桌游，仿佛我们试图让桌游承载各种功能。有时我在想，自己对历史题材游戏的执着，是否是因为需要某种外部刺激来帮助我更清晰地感受游戏及其故事。

Yeah, it does. It also makes me think, know, and this is actually a great question to ask of you. You're a writer, you're a reader, you're a gamer. You know, one thing I think about is we always we like to talk about, oh, board games telling stories, narrative board games, open world board games, like we're trying to get board games to be a lot of things. And I wonder sometimes if my attachment to historical gaming is because I need a lift of some sort of external input to help me see the game and feel its story more.

但我不确定这是否只是我个人特质。你认为桌游实际具备怎样的叙事能力？又需要多少外部阅读材料辅助？比如你是否需要这些来提升体验？或者说，桌游本质上能在叙事层面做到什么程度？

But I don't know if that's a me thing, like what do you think is the actual capacity for a board game to tell stories? And then how much sort of external reading and stuff? Like do you need it to make it better for you? Or you know, what is what is a Borgam intrinsically able to do narratively?

啊，这个问题很简单。感谢提问，我回答起来完全没难度。关于外部阅读——虽然我自己确实会这么做，但那纯粹是因为我本身就喜欢阅读。

Oh, yeah. That's an easy question. Thank you for that. I will I will not have any difficulty answering this at all. So I think that when it comes to, like, external reading, which I I know is something I do, but, again, that's just because I like to read.

对吧？比如有些人并不那么热衷阅读，或者不太爱读小说类作品。所以一个主要阅读非虚构作品的人，从游戏中获取的语境会与我这种偏爱小说的人截然不同。

Right? Like, there are people who don't like reading that much or don't like reading fiction that much, for example. Right? Yeah. And so so a person who mostly reads nonfiction is gonna take away, like, very different context from a game than a person who reads mostly fiction like I do.

这里本就没有对错之分。我认为游戏天然具备某种叙事能力，因为它们以独特方式呈现内容。游戏本质上已经是故事——毕竟大多数游戏都在模拟某种情境，对吧？

And and there's just no right or wrong here. Right? I think games have, like, this sort of intrinsic capacity for storytelling because they approach things in very different ways. They are they are, like, inescapably already a story because most games try to simulate something. Right?

通过这种模拟行为，游戏几乎像在进行创造，你在召唤某种存在。因此我认为所有游戏都有讲故事的潜力，但必须是有意识的——这里我说的'有意识'是指游戏设计师。

And then, like, through that act of simulation, they try to like, it's it's almost like creation. You're, like, evoking something. Right? And so I think that, therefore, like, every game has capacity to tell a story, but it needs to be conscious. And when I say it, I mean the designers.

必须对游戏所采用的叙事框架保持清醒认知。

It needs to be conscious of the frame that it is telling the story from.

是啊。

Yeah.

这完全关乎框架。懂吗？比如，当你权衡优缺点时，就像我之前做的那个视频里讨论桌游框架的概念——你看一张电影静帧画面时，能看清框内所有元素，那就是故事本身。但一旦你按下播放键，画面流动起来，不仅元素会进出画框，那些你刻意安排在镜头外的部分也在推动叙事。

This is all about framing. You know? Like, if if you consider the strengths and weaknesses, you know, like, this this this video I did where I talked about what a frame of a board game is, you know, like, if you if you look at a picture, you know, of like, a still from a movie, you know, you can see everything that is in a frame, you know, and that's the story. But as soon as you, like, hit unpause and the frame starts going, you know, all the like, things don't just move in and out of frames, but there's also, you know, story happening by the things that you can't see in the frame. They're deliberately off screen.

对吧？还有音效等等。但你的叙事终究受限于画框内外的边界。

Right? You know? And there's sound and everything. Right? So but but you are limited sort of to what's in frame and what's not in frame.

明白吗？这就是叙事母题。桌游比电影潜力更大，因为它的框架首先是全景式的——囊括了所有可能性，几乎构建出一个完整世界。

Right? That's kind of your storytelling motif. A board game has much greater potential than a movie because it's not just like, so so your frame is, first of all, holistic because it encompasses everything that can be. Right? Like, it almost, like, creates a world.

你看棋盘时，那就是这个世界的宇宙。这个宇宙不仅是活的（因为你能移动棋子），还具备即兴输入——有时一人有时多人会不受导演意志左右地主动行动。

If you look at a board, right, that's, like, the universe that this world inhabits. Right? And then not only is that universe alive because you can, like, move pieces and stuff like that, but also it's it's like improvised input. You have sometimes one or sometimes multiple people who are, like, actively doing things without any directorial volition. You know?

桌游设计师可以制定规则，规定操作方式，但其余都交由玩家诠释。所以我认为叙事潜力的规模是巨大的，不过我们仍在探索阶段。桌游既是古老的，同时作为文化载体又非常年轻。

The designer of a board game can impose rules and say, well, this is how you must do things, but then the rest is for the players to interpret. Right? So I think I think the scale for, like, potential storytelling is enormous. But I think we're just, like, discovering that still. I think board games in so many ways are so very old and that simultaneously so very young because of their journey as as cultural objects.

游戏始终是人类的一部分，但直到现在人们才开始真正深入探索。我们还有很多待发掘的可能性，这种潜力确实存在。

You know, they they they have like, games have always been a part of us, but it is only now that people have really started to very seriously explore this. Right? So I think we still have a lot to discover and uncover as it were. And the potential is definitely there.

希望如此。我期待未来几年能在桌游评论领域从事更有趣的工作。尽管我觉得当前的文化潮流并不利于这一方向。

I hope so. I'm looking forward to, like, more interesting work in board game criticism in coming years. Although, I do think our cultural current is against it.

嗯，确实有这个因素。是的。

Well, there is that. Yeah.

可能经济环境现在也不太乐观，但我不想纠结于此。好吧，那就说点更实际的——你之前提到谈论游戏时，不在乎自己的感受是正面还是负面，只要有故事性就行。如果这是促使你制作视频的动力...

Our economic one too, possibly right now, but I don't wanna dwell there. Yep. So on a more prosaic note then, so like, when you talk about stories, like you mentioned earlier in our conversation that you don't really care if your feelings about a game are positive or negative as long as there's a story there. And like, if that is what interests you as the impetus for a video.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，你对负面评价的看法是怎样的？我觉得大家总在讨论这个问题，你目前持什么立场？

Do you I mean, to what extent do you think much about weather, about, I guess, about negative reviews, what their place is? I feel like everybody always has this conversation, but, you know, where are you at on it currently?

我注意到有种观点——包括一些我非常尊敬的人也这么说——他们认为只做正面报道，因为想传播桌游的快乐之类的。当然也有观众会反驳说'这人就是为了点击率才写差评'，这种说法也安到我头上过。其实任何做过负面评测的人都会被这样指责。

So I've noticed this this sort of, like, sentiment sometimes that I hear, including from some people I very much respect, where they'll say that they'll only do positive coverage because, hey, they wanna bring the joy of board games or whatever, you know. Or then there's obviously, you know, that sort of counterargument not counterargument, but like a parallel argument that you see from a lot of audiences where they'll say things like, oh, yeah. That person's just like negative for clicks or whatever. And that's been attributed to me as well. Because I think that's been attributed to anyone who's done any kind of negative review.

我通常把这些当噪音忽略，因为评论家的职责不仅是评估游戏（这当然是主要功能），还要向观众传递'这是个认真对待工作的严肃人士'的信号。如果你不能传达这种印象——虽然听起来很绝对，你可以尽情搞笑——但人们需要感受到你在作品中投入了努力和时间。

I tend to ignore that as noise because I think it's the job of a critic to not only assess games. This is a primary function definitely, but also to to kind of give a sense to their audience that this is this is a serious person who takes the job seriously. Right? And and like because if if you don't relay that sense, then you are and and I mean this sounds very definitive. You can be as silly as you want to, but you know, I think people need to get a sense that you put in effort and time into your work.

对吧？是的。因为需要建立一种信任关系。对吧？而信任是一种如此稀有且难以捉摸的东西，你知道，因为一旦你能说，哦，哇。

Right? Yeah. Because there needs to be a relationship of trust. Right? And trust is such a rare and finicky commodity, you know, because because as soon as you can say, oh, wow.

你知道，你可以信任我。对此的即时反应是不。不。不。我不能。

You know, you can trust me. The immediate response to that is no. No. No. I can't.

对吧？比如，那么你如何，你知道，在观众中建立那种感觉？因为作为评论家你需要这样。我认为这是必要的。对吧？

Right? Like, so so how do you so how do you, you know, kind of build that sense with your audience? Because you need to as a critic. I think it's imperative. Right?

作为评论家，你如何与观众建立那种感觉，让他们觉得可以信任你。不一定是，像，一个决定性的声明，而是，像，有一点信任。对吧？我认为唯一的方法就是，怎么说呢，通常的说法是？像，尽可能多地展示真实的自己，尽可能频繁地。

How do you build that sense as a critic with your audience where they can feel like they can trust you. Not necessarily, like, as a definitive statement, but, like, there's a, like, a modicum of trust. Right? And I think the only way you can do that is if you what's the what's the, like, normal way of putting this? Like, lay yourself bare, right, as many times as you can, as often as you can.

对吧？像，那那那就是我的看法。你知道吗？比如，如果我不喜欢某样东西，我对它有感觉，我觉得这里有些东西。这里有些东西是人们可以产生共鸣的。

Right? Like, that that that's that's how I see it. You know? Like, if I don't like something and I feel something about that, I feel like there is something here. There's something here that people can relate to.

这里有些东西不仅仅是，哦，我不喜欢这个。你知道，我应该讲这个故事，你知道吗？如果这里有些东西是，嘿，这真的很好。我真的很享受这个。而且不仅仅是，哦，是的，我过得很愉快。你知道，我也应该讲这个故事。

There's something here that is more than just, oh, I don't like this. You know, I should tell that story, you know? And if there's something here that's like, hey, this is really good. I'm really enjoying this And it's more than just, oh, yeah, I'm having a nice time. You know, I should tell that story as well.

对吧？所以，我希望通过这样做，我们可以，你知道，无意冒犯，我们可以表现得像是那些会，你知道，尽可能诚实的人，对吧？因为没有所谓的终极诚实。我不能，像，我不能解释我所有的偏见，你知道，因为每个人，而且我认为我最大的，抱歉，我要稍微跑题了。我最大的烦恼

Right? So so I'm hoping that by doing that, we can, you know, as no pun included, we can we can come across as as people who will, you know, not be as honest as we can, right? Because there's there's no such thing as ultimate honesty. I can't like I can't account for every bias that I have or you know, because everyone and I think my biggest, sorry, I'm gonna sort of divert myself. My biggest pet peeve

哦，去吧。

Oh, go for it.

当我上PGG看到游戏评测时，总会有人说‘这是我客观公正的看法’。不，不是的。每个人都有偏见，抱歉。

Is when I go on PGG and I see a review for a game, and it'll say something, well, you know, this is my unbiased opinion. No. It isn't. Like, everyone's got bias. I'm sorry.

对每件事都是如此。懂吗？有太多潜意识的细微偏见了。我无时无刻不带着偏见。

Like, for everything. You know? Like, there's so many unconscious little things. Right? I am biased all the time.

但我能做的就是至少尝试——虽然注定失败——去审视这些偏见：它是什么？从何而来？真的重要吗？然后将其传达出来。

But the thing that I can do is I can at least try to, and will inevitably fail, Try to examine, like, what bias is there? Where is it coming from? Does it even really matter? You know? Like and and relay that.

对吧？这就是我说的诚实。我会尽力在作品中展现最真实诚恳的自己。

Right? So so, you know, that's what I mean by honesty. Know? I will try to be as as raw and sincere as I can be in the work that I present. Right?

希望通过持续这样做，能让人们感受到：我的言论是经过深思和努力的。虽然很难准确表达，但希望能传递出这种态度。

And I hope that through doing that repeatedly, I can build some sort of a sense from people that, like, what I say is, you know, I've I've thought about it. I've put in effort. You know? I don't know. It's very hard to articulate for me, but I'm hoping that I'm getting something through.

是的。其实很有趣，我有个预先没准备的问题——‘如何保持对工作的热情？’在采访中你已经给出了答案。就我个人而言，接触游戏越多，我对设计的热情反而越强烈。

Yeah. I think so. Actually, you know, it's funny, one of the questions I had, I don't plan a ton of questions in advance, but one of the ones I'd kind of wondered about, but I think you've answered it, through the course of this interview, is how do you maintain your passion for what you are doing? And this is maybe just a me thing, but you know, one of the reasons that, I mean, design has worked out differently for me. The more I worked with games, the more I want to.

但自从你帮我打理YouTube频道后，我经历并仍在经历着非常频繁的倦怠感。

But with you doing my YouTube channel, I experienced and still do, like very frequent burnout.

是因为

Because of

那种持续玩游戏的压力、需要拍摄内容的紧迫感、以及责任感，我想这就是看着一堆游戏时的感受——天啊，我得玩这个。我的天。并不是说我不喜欢游戏，而是当它开始感觉像家务活时，我就开始烦躁。你在生活中是如何应对这种情况的？

sort of the pressure to keep playing, the need to film something, the sense of obligation, I guess that comes with looking at a pile of games and being like, oh god, I gotta play this. Oh my god. And like, it's not that I don't like games. It's that I look at when I, when it starts to feel like a chore, I start to get agitated. How do you manage that in your life?

听起来部分解决方法是通过寻找故事性，这样至少能让你对自己产出的内容保持愉悦和兴趣。但你还有什么其他应对倦怠的方法吗？

It sounds like part of it is through looking for the story, so you're at least keeping yourself pleased and entertained with the work you're putting out. But how else do you handle that burnout?

现在又到了一年中的这个时候，也就是十一月，那种不可避免的倦怠感开始袭来。对我来说这已经成了季节性现象，我总能预料到。就在埃森展之后，对吧？比如，从埃森展回来大概两周后。

It's coming to that time of year now, which is November, where, like, the inevitable burnout kicks in. I it's become seasonal for me, and I can always clock it. It's it's right after Essen. Right? Like, give it about like, I come back from Essen.

我原本充满干劲，有这么多酷炫的游戏。但大约两周后，倦怠感就真正开始蔓延。我也不知道为什么。

I'm really energized. There's all these cool games. Right? And in about two weeks after that, it starts to really set in. And I don't know why.

我不清楚。也许也和季节性情绪失调有关，你知道的，那种情绪障碍，不管叫什么。你明白我的意思吗？

I don't know. Maybe it's also to do with seasonal, you know, disorder, mood disorder, whatever it's called. Do know you what I mean?

季节性情感障碍。对。差不多就是那样。是的。

Seasonal affective disorder. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

对。就是那个。对吧？可能也有这个因素，你知道，像是和‘后精华忧郁’混合在一起的那种感觉。但去年精华节后，我整整两个月都没法发视频。情况真的很糟糕。

Yeah. That one. Right? Maybe it's that as well, you know, like a combined kind of thing with the post Essence Blues, you know, but like last year, I couldn't put out videos for two months after Essence. Like, it was really bad.

非常非常糟糕。现在又快到那个时候了。不过通常治愈它的方法就是制作年度游戏视频。比如，嘿，这些都是让我兴奋的游戏。

It was very, very bad. So it's coming up to that time now. But and then usually, the cure for that is making the game of the year videos. Like, hey. Here's all the games I've been excited about.

我们来聊聊它们。但确实，2023年对我来说真的很糟。我感觉特别消沉，你知道，解封后我和Elaine的社交活动还是很少，因为医疗原因我们仍需格外小心——具体我就不多说了，但关注我们的人都知道。

Let's talk about them. But yeah. I so it's it's definitely been up and down. 2023 was really bad for me. I felt like really down in the dumps where it was, you know, post lockdowns, socializing for me and Elaine was still low because, you know, for medical reasons, we have to be still extra careful that I'm not gonna go into, but, like, it's something people who follow us know about.

所以情绪一直很低落。但今年...不想立flag，可今年我对游戏特别有热情。主要是因为参与了一些超有趣的项目，比如《弧光》视频、《这是觉醒》视频、正在制作的《沙丘》视频和《国王已死》视频。而且今年我还打算花时间畅聊些超棒的游戏——今年玩到了太多新颖有趣的游戏，我简直兴奋极了。

So, you know, the mood was pretty, pretty low. But this year's you know, don't wanna jinx it, but this year's been I've been pretty excited about games. I think it's mostly because I've worked on some very interesting projects, you know, the the the arcs video, the This Is Arousal video, the Dune video I'm working out on now, and the King is Dead video. But also this year, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm just gonna take some time to gab about some really cool games because this year, I've played so many games that are so interesting and so different. And, like, I'm just really jazzed.

我迫不及待想讨论这些，因为即将发售的好游戏太多了。你听说过《永恒圣约》吗？

I'm jazzed to talk about these things because there's so many just exciting games coming out. Have you, like, have you heard of Eternal Dex?

嗯。我们玩过

Yeah. We played

它。哦，我们一起玩过，对，我们一起玩的。啊，是的。那游戏有多棒？

it. Oh, we played yeah. We played it together. Ah, yeah. How great is that game?

太棒了。我对它的重制版非常期待，因为我肯定会入手。

It was great. I'm really excited for it to get the rerelease because I will be picking it up for sure.

对吧？所以那真的很棒。《老国王的王冠》，非常棒。是的，你懂吧？

Right? So that that was really good. The old king's crown, really good. Yeah. You know?

没错。而且这不可能发生在更合适的人身上了。Pablo很讨人喜欢。

Right. And it that couldn't have happened to a better person. Pablo's delightful.

我在展会现场和他聊了五秒钟。所以我不太了解Pablo，但他看起来人很好。但游戏本身太出色了。你知道，就连那些流行文化热点，比如《护戒使者的命运》也让人兴奋不已。

I've spoken to him for five seconds at the convention floor. So but so I don't really know Pablo, but he seems very nice. But the game is fantastic. And, you know, even even the, like, pop culture hits like the Fate of the Fellowship is really exciting. Yeah.

但还有很多奇怪的独立精品突然涌现，比如我玩过《冬兔》，那是一种完全不同的半合作玩法体验。我从没玩过这样的游戏——每个人都刻意地、战略性地公开自己的战术计划。就像：'我要这么做，我计划这么做，原因是...'

You know, but there's there's a lot of, like, weird, like, indie gems that are just springing out like I've played Winter Rabbit and that was such a strange different experience of, like, of approaching the idea of of, like, semi cooperative play. You know, I've never played a game before where, like, everyone just deliberately deliberately, strategically vocalized their plans, strategic plans. Right? Like, this is what I'm gonna do. This is what I'm planning on doing, and this is why.

因为如果我这样做，就能在竞技游戏中实现那个目标。明白吗？我从没见过其他游戏有这种设计。2025年的游戏界有种特别的氛围，作品都如此新颖、独特、充满活力。我现在就是迫不及待想玩各种游戏。

Because if I do this, I will then be able to do this in a competitive game. Right? Like, I've never seen another game do that. And it's just, you know, like, there's something there's something in the air in 2025 where games are just so fresh and different and vibrant and exciting. I'm just I'm just jazzed to play things right now.

所以我认为这确实有帮助。当世界现在看起来相当糟糕的时候，这种尝试新事物、做新鲜刺激事情的感觉，确实能缓解那种倦怠和疲惫。哦，这真的让我充满能量，找不到更好的词来形容，就是让我精神振奋。

So I think I think it helps. I think it helps with with the with the ennui and the and the burnout or whatever when you feel like despite the world being, like, a pretty horrible place right now, there there is a sense of, like, just people trying things and doing things, something new, something fresh, something exciting. And, oh, that really energizes me. I feel pumped for lack of a better word.

太棒了。我通常问人们什么游戏能带来快乐，但现在我们知道了。我也非常期待更多永恒卡组，我是认真的。

That's awesome. I I normally ask people what games bring the joy, but now we know. I really can't wait for more eternal decks too. I'm very serious about that.

这是个非常新颖的设计。它真的以一种方式，我不知道怎么说，我特别喜欢这种从团队合作中自然产生的玩法，但又将其游戏化，甚至可以说是数学化，你懂我的意思吗？

It's such a it's such a fresh design. Like, it just it just really kind of, like, takes this I don't know. I really like this idea of of of the cooperative play that emerges from the crew, but to kind of, like, really gamify it and, you know Yeah. Mathify it. You know?

这让游戏变得如此有趣、有深度且充满欢乐。当然，游戏的呈现方式也功不可没，比如那种哑光黑布面板配上银色装饰，看起来太棒了。

Like, that that made it so fun and crunchy and and joyous. And, of course, like, the presentation of that game really helps that that kind of, like, you know, like, matte black cloth board with the silver, like, on it. It looks so good.

哦，没错。游戏也是实体物品，当它们利用这一点时效果会更好。但这让我思考，人们总说现在是桌游的黄金时代，我们是否已经走到了尽头？

Oh, yeah. I mean, games are also physical objects, and it helps when they play into that. But, you know, it makes me think too. Like, people are like, oh, well, are we this is the golden age of board gaming. Have we reached the end of the road?

进行这样的对话让我意识到，不，我们可能永远不会走到尽头。这就像说绘画在文艺复兴时期就结束了，或者自狄更斯之后就没有好书了一样，你明白我的意思。

And having this conversation kinda reminds me of, no. We'll probably never reach the end of the road. That's like saying that painting ended in the Renaissance or that there hasn't been a good book since like Dickens or something like that. You know

老实说，我认为我们才刚刚开始触及表面。现在是非常早期的阶段，还有太多东西人们没有尝试过。我觉得问题部分在于人们认为这个爱好已经定型，游戏设计有特定的固定模式。

what I mean? I think we're just scratching the surface, honestly. I think this is very early days. There's so many things that people haven't tried. And I think I think part of the problem was that people felt like I think people felt like the hobby was established and that there were a certain way of doing things when it comes to game design specifically.

我不是在谈论出版之类的事情。我指的是那种成文的、BGG精神中关于游戏应该是什么、不应该是什么的准则。你懂吧？比如掷骰子移动很糟糕，我们不喜欢玩家淘汰机制，也不喜欢‘造王’行为。看到这类观念被挑战和重新探讨其实挺好的——因为当我们武断地说‘这很糟糕’时（我自己也常犯这种错），其实限制了可能性。

I'm not talking about, like, publishing or anything like that. I'm talking about, like, the codified kind of, like, sense of, you know, the BGG ethos of what a game should be and what what it shouldn't be. You know? You know, roll and move is bad, and then, you know, like, we don't like player elimination, and, you you know, we don't like king making. And, like, it's nice to see, you know, like, these sorts of ideas being challenged and re explored and, like because by saying these definitive statements, well, this is bad and and and I'm just as guilty of it as anyone else.

对吧？我并非在指责谁，毕竟我也举手承认过。我可能是第一个会说‘对，别这么做，要那样做’的人。

Right? I'm not throwing shade at anyone because raise my hand up. I'm, you know, the first one who would have been like, yes. Don't do things this way. Do it that way.

就像我们一贯的做法。但现在终于感觉人们开始打破这种思维定式，会说‘不，我要尝试些不同的东西了’，明白吗？

How we've all been doing them. Right? Like, and it's it's finally feels like people are kind of breaking out of that shell and going, no. I'm gonna try something different now. You know?

比如我要探索这些可能性，也许真能发现新东西。我觉得我们才刚刚抵达这个阶段，之后会怎样谁知道呢？就像...啊，我们还在起点呢。

Like, I'm gonna explore these things and and actually, maybe there's something here. And and I think we're just we're just, like, getting to this point. And then from there on, who knows? You know? Like, ah, we're at the beginning.

太棒了。那意味着本期节目要结束了，我们聊了大约一小时。但我非常期待几年后再做一次这样的对话，看看那时的发展。对于不了解的听众，哪里可以在线找到你？

Fantastic. So that means that we're at the end of this episode. We've been going for about an hour. But I'm really excited to do this again in a few years and see where we're at. But for people who don't know, where do you like to be found online?

我通常出没于一个鲜为人知的网站——youtube.com。进入后顶部有个小搜索栏（虽然周围有很多干扰元素）...

So I like to be found online on a website. Not many people have heard of it. It's called youtube.com. And if if you go into that, there'll be like this little search bar at the top. There'll be a lot of other distracting things.

忽略那些干扰，在搜索栏输入“no pun included”（pun是p-u-n），就能找到我的头像。点击那个头像，我就会开始对你说话了——那就是我的根据地。

Ignore those. Go into that search bar and type in no pun included. That's p u n, and then you'll find my face. And then you'll click on that face, and I'll start talking at you. That's where I am.

太好了。在网上任何地方都能以Beyond Solitaire找到我。Efka，非常感谢你能来参加。这真是令人无比欣喜。

Perfect. I can be found anywhere online as Beyond Solitaire. Efka, thank you so much for coming on. This is an absolute delight.

谢谢邀请。我真的很享受这次交谈，聊了些平时没机会聊的话题。非常感谢你给我这个机会畅所欲言，我度过了一段非常愉快的时光。

Thank you for having me. I I had a really nice time chatting to you about things that I don't normally get to chat about. This was really thank you for giving me an opportunity to gab about all these things. I had a really good time.

确实聊得很尽兴。好了，各位观众朋友们，感谢收看。请点赞、订阅、评论、提问，最重要的是，祝大家游戏愉快。

It was a good gab. Alright, everybody out there. Thank you for watching. Please like, subscribe, comment, ask questions, and most of all, happy gaming.