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我们最不该做的事就是让政府印一大堆钱，这相当于掠夺穷人，好让他们买比特币来让我们致富。
The last thing we should want to do is the government to print up a bunch of money, which steals from the poor so that they can buy Bitcoin to enrich us.
就像，不，这不是我们想要的，问号。
Like, no, that's not what we want, question mark.
或者像或者或者通过没收代币来填满SBR，基本上就是现在这样。
Or like or or fill up the SBR by seizing coins, which basically what it is now.
就像是，哦，看看我们从人们那里偷来的这些代币。
It's like, oh, look at all these coins we stole from people.
哦，太棒了。
Oh, great.
这可真利好。
That's bullish.
不，才不是。
No, it's not.
这他妈糟透了。
That's fucking terrible.
真正的采用来自于人们实际使用它，来自于个人和企业创建循环经济，交易商品和服务，比如提高流通速度。
The real adoption comes from people actually using it, from individuals and businesses creating circular economies, trading goods and services, like increasing the velocity.
在我看来，这才是比特币真正采用的意义所在。
This is, in my opinion, what real Bitcoin adoption is all about.
真正的问题在于，比如采用和建设，并真正触及这些开发者，因为他们才是会采用自己课程的人。
The real question is around, like, adoption and building it out and really reaching these developers because they're the ones who are gonna adopt their course.
大家好啊？
What is up, guys?
欢迎回到Bitcoin Audible，这里是畅所欲言、探讨比特币真谛的地方，我们将探索比特币领域的最佳内容，并与最酷的人和项目交流。
Welcome back to Bitcoin Audible, your place for unfiltered, raw, real Bitcoin talk and exploring all the best in Bitcoin and chatting with the coolest people and the coolest projects.
我是Guy Swan，你们的主持人，一个比你们认识的任何人都更了解比特币的人。
I am Guy Swan, your host, the guy who has read more about Bitcoin than anybody else you know.
工作量证明，懂吗。
Proof of work, bitch.
仔细听好。
Listen to it.
今天我们有一场超棒的对话。
We have got an awesome conversation today.
我一直在努力挤出时间录音，希望能继续与大家保持交流，同时还要照顾两个孩子，这真是段疯狂的小冒险。
I have been trying to, you know, squeeze in little recording times and hopefully still chats to catch up with people while dealing with two kids, which is a wild little adventure.
我们很荣幸再次请到UTXO上节目。
And we managed to get UTXO on the show again.
他曾是Nodeless的CEO和创始人，我之前与他共事过。
He was the CEO and founder of Nodeless, who I worked with in the past.
说实话，我认为他创造了太多酷炫的东西，而且对整个领域有着独到的见解。
And I think he just he honestly has just built so many cool things, and he has such an interesting perspective on all of this.
他是个实干家。
And he is a builder.
这正是我喜欢与实干家交流的原因——他们有着不同的视角。
Like, this is what I love talking to people who build and use because they have a different perspective.
在'比特币发展方向'和'如何解决比特币问题'这些议题上，他们能同时看到问题的两面。
They have insight into both sides of the coin when it comes to where do we take Bitcoin and how do we solve Bitcoin's problems.
他不仅是我的好朋友，也是我密切关注的对象，我一直在追踪他的项目进展和动态。
And he's not only a good friend, but also somebody that I follow very closely with what he's building and what he's up to.
我其实有点想直接照搬他搭建的AI系统。
I really just kinda wanted to copy my AI setup off of what he built.
我们私下里反复交流过组装定制电脑时遇到的困难和取得的成功。
We had a private conversation kinda going back and forth on our our troubles and successes with building custom computers.
但我们确实早就该好好叙叙旧，梳理下近况了。
But we were way overdue for a catch up and to go through things.
特别有趣的是，我们刚开始聊天时，他甚至没意识到正在录音。
And what was really funny is we just started talking, and he didn't even realize that we were recording.
所以我们进行了一场非常愉快的对话。
So we have a really good conversation.
在我不得不离开前，我们设法聊了大约一个半小时。
We managed to get about an hour and a half in before I had to skip out.
快速插播下，感谢我们的赞助商Block Stream和Jade Plus硬件钱包。
Real quick, a shout out to our sponsors to Block Stream and the Jade Plus hardware wallet.
说真的我不是故意的，但这钱包最近总出现在我手边——因为我最近经常把玩它。
Always just happen I don't actually do this on purpose, but I just always have this wallet sitting around because I've been playing with it a lot lately.
现在购买Jade Plus硬件钱包可享9折优惠，只需使用折扣码GUY（g u y）。
But check out the Jade Plus hardware wallet for 10, yes, for 10% off, you can use the code GUY, g u y.
这绝对是世界上最简单的折扣码。
That's the easiest code in the world.
简直太好记了。
It's so easy to remember.
如果你拼写不出来，就别硬拼，也别碰J Plus。
And if you can't spell it, then don't get a hard don't get a j plus.
如果你连这个都拼不对，那你可要倒霉了。
You're gonna have you're gonna have a bad time if you can't spell that.
如果你对J Plus一无所知，可以去YouTube、Rumble和Noster上看看我的视频。
If you don't know anything about the j plus, check out my videos on YouTube and Rumble and Noster.
快速设置的小教程（TLDR版），还有开箱视频——如果你想看看这个小宝贝有多惊艳的话。
Little tutorial with the TLDR for a quick setup, and then the unboxing if you just wanna see how gorgeous this little baby is.
也可以试试BitKit钱包，用户体验很棒，入门流程简单直观。
And check out the BitKit wallet for good user experiences and for simple onboarding that's just intuitive.
BitKit是目前最好用的钱包之一，它能从开始到结束全程引导你，让你轻松上手使用。
BitKit is one of the best out there that just works, and that just kind of leads you where you're supposed to go from start to finish so that you can just use it.
恭喜我们抽奖活动的五位获奖者，每人获得了50,000聪。
Congrats to the five winners we had, who got 50,000 sats in our giveaway.
我们可能会再举办一次这样的活动。
We may do another one of those.
如果想参与，请持续关注并在Twitter上关注BitKit和我。
So if you wanna enter that, keep an eye out and follow Bitkit as well as myself on Twitter.
好的。
Alright.
现在让我们进入与UTXO的对话环节。
Let's get into our chat with UTXO.
我们聊了很多超酷的内容。
We dive into so many cool things.
我们聊了人工智能。
We talk about AI.
我们聊了他的AI业务发展情况以及行业变化。
We talk about his AI business and where that has gone and how the industry has changed.
我们讨论了本地服务与云服务的对比，硬件发展趋势，以及近期变化与未来可能的变革。
We talk about local versus cloud services and where potentially the hardware is going and, you know, what what has been recently changing versus what might be changing in the future.
接着我们聊了Nostr协议，探讨了人们的普遍认知与实际应用的差异，以及其最高价值的应用场景。
Then we talk about Nostr and the difference between what people kind of think it is versus what it actually is and where its highest value use case is.
当然，最大的问题是如何跨越最后一道障碍——将开发者创造的精妙工具转化为对新手用户直观易用的产品。
And then, of course, the biggest problem is how do you cross that last mile from brilliant tools created by developers to stuff that's intuitive for a new user and just works.
这就是通过UTXO解决用户体验最后一公里的问题。
This is bridging the UX last mile with UTXO.
你最近在忙什么？
What you been up to?
你的电脑项目进展如何？
How's your computer stuff going?
在我们深入讨论比特币的具体话题前，我需要先了解下最新情况。
And before we before we get into, like, specific Bitcoin stuff, I need an update, man.
我们确实有段时间没联系了。
We we haven't talked in a while.
我知道。
I know.
呃，关于AI和组装电脑这事，我基本上已经放弃了，因为那些服务配套的NVIDIA显卡太夸张了——像什么8万美元的H100之类的鬼东西。
Well, like, I guess just like on the AI and PC building, I, like, I basically gave up trying to do that because it's just like the NVIDIA cards that you get with these services that they have, like, the $80,000 a 1 hundreds and all that kind of shit.
就是说，那些九十年代的小玩意儿根本没法竞争，也根本不可能给我提供像那些云服务商每月9美元就能做到的效果。
Like, little thirty nineties are just never gonna compete and never gonna, like, give me an output that will match what these cloud guys are doing for like $9 a month or whatever.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以我基本上已经放弃尝试做本地AI的事情了。
So I basically have just like given up on trying to do local AI stuff.
而我那个已经支撑了我四五年的AI生意，现在几乎要完蛋了。
And my AI business, which has been like paying my bills for like four or five years now, is like almost dead.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
就像慢慢枯竭那样？
As it just kinda like trickled out?
是啊。
Yeah.
衰退是从...我想说去年年中开始，业务量突然大幅下滑。
It trick I there was like, I would say like mid last year, there's just a huge drop off.
我觉得主要是因为现在人们都有好显卡了。
I think it's just like, you know, people have good GPUs now.
开源工具用起来方便多了。
The open source tools are just way easier to use.
现在运行模型已经不需要成为Linux终端高手了。
You don't have to be like a Linux terminal guy to run models anymore.
是啊。
Yeah.
皮诺曹老兄，因为统一内存，你现在能在我的Mac上跑得飞起。
Pinocchio, dude, you can run I can run so much on my Mac now just because of the unified memory.
而且，我并不是说，就是有各种各样的破事。
And, like, I just haven't mean, there's just, like, all sorts of shit.
而且...我觉得，像小公司或小型云服务提供的优势，某种程度上就是隐私性。
And and and, like, I see it as being like, the benefit, I think, of, like, a smaller, like, company or smaller, like, cloud thing being provided is kind of, like, the privacy.
但如果你能在本地完成，并且已经有工具，这个优势就被抵消了。
But then that benefit is outweighed by if you can do it locally and you have a tool for it already.
你知道，在30多个开源工具里随便找一个——天知道你要找什么——特别是如果你想把它整合到工作流中。比如我们一直在做的那些背景故事项目，像WAN和洋葱视频这类东西，试图为简单动画找到固定风格。
And, you know, one of the 30 dozen open source tools for God knows anything you're looking for, you're especially if you're trying to, like, use it in, like, a workflow, you're going to like like, for instance, like so I'm trying to do we've been working on, like, some story projects and stuff in the background that I've been constantly doing, like, WAN and, like, a Onion video and, like, these sorts of things, trying to figure out how we I can get, like, a concrete style and stuff for, like, simple animations.
但它还没达到那个程度，因为那不是真的。
And it's still not there because that's not true.
需要大量剪辑和合成工作才能达到，这属于视频制作的范畴。
It's there with a lot of editing and composite work, which is kind of the video side of things.
但在某些场景下可能永远达不到——你不能像导演那样指挥AI。
But it's not there with and I I it may never be in some context, but by just describing it and getting like, you can't play director with AI.
这更像是素材挖掘的过程。
It's almost like a found footage thing.
AI会给你一堆垃圾，然后你从中找出好东西，看能不能编出故事。
It's like AI's gonna give you a bunch of crap, and then you find the good stuff and see if you can make a story out of the good stuff.
我觉得你就得这么对待它。
Like, that's how I think you have to treat it.
要么你必须是前任，要么你就得干活。
Or you have to be ex or you have to do work.
要知道，如果你想走不干活的捷径，那就得硬着头皮蛮干——最终你还是得花时间生成大量内容，这意味着你不会想用CREA或ChadGBT之类的服务，因为在你得到20个满意或可用的成果前，可能得先生成一万个垃圾。
You know, if you want to do the non work way, you're going to be brute forcing it, you're still going to have to do work just in the time and the amount that you have to generate, which means that you're not going to want to use CREA or ChadGBT or you know, whatever, anything that's a service because you're going to generate 10,000 things before you have like 20 that are good or 20 that you want to use.
但如果你在做非常具体的事，并且对此有明确愿景，想当导演的话，你就需要本地化方案。你需要本地资源，还需要懂点电影拍摄，因为你会意识到：'我能看清自己制作视频的路径，但恐怕还是得亲自拍胶片'。
Whereas, if you're doing something very specific and you have a vision for it and you wanna be director, you you need local because you need local and you kinda need to know how to do film because you're going to be like, I I can see my path to making the videos and stuff that I wanna make, but I think I'm gonna have to shoot film.
比如，我觉得我得外出取景，然后搭建个拍摄场景。
Like, I think I'm gonna have to go out and I'm gonna have to kind of, like, set up a scene.
可能真得用纸板箱之类的道具，但我需要搭建个类似控制网的参考环境，再把风格套用上去。
I mean, maybe literally with cardboard boxes and stuff, but, like, I need to set up kind of a control net sort of environment to follow and then print a style onto.
你懂我意思吧？
You You know what I mean?
嗯。
Yep.
我真心觉得这方法可行，但得把相机搬出来用了。
And I I genuinely think that might work, but I'm gonna have to break out a camera.
大多数用AI的人不愿这么干，他们用AI就是因为懒。
And most people don't want to do that when they're using AI because they're kinda using AI because they're lazy.
所以...确实能明显感觉到这情况在几个月内就改变甚至赶走了大量用户，估计再过几个月市场又得大变——现在一切变化都太快了。
So, but, yeah, I I can totally see how that has probably driven away a lot of or just shifted shifted the market so much in a matter of months, and it will probably again shift in a matter of months because so much is just moving so quickly.
但我已经基本转向本地化方案了，因为用云端服务反而让我无所适从。
But I've specifically gone to almost all local stuff just because it it almost doesn't make sense what I do with it.
说实话这操作真特么烦人。
Like, it's it's more of a pain in the ass.
比如，我可以用AI写个脚本，自动完成每期节目都需要做的重复工作，这比每次手动启动ChatGPT、打开浏览器、输入内容、找到提示词再复制粘贴快多了。
Like, I can write a script with AI to do the one job that I needed to do for every episode or whatever it is faster than I can go go boot up ChatGPT and open up a browser and punch it and, like, go find my prompt and copy and paste it.
你懂我意思吗？
You know what I mean?
就是，这对我来说很不合理，因为整个初衷应该是快速、简单、重复地完成某些事情。
Like, it just it it doesn't make sense for me because, like, the whole idea is, like, do something quick and easy and repetitive.
明白吗？
You know?
是啊。
Yeah.
总之，虽然说了这么多，但我确实感觉到AI领域正在发生这种转变。
So, anyway, long rant, but I I kinda get the sense of that sort of shift happening in AI.
没错，兄弟。
Yes, bro.
我是说，我大概2018年就开始创业了。
I mean, like my I started the business in like 2018.
那时候几乎没人知道AI，所有开源工具都还处于...
So like barely anybody knew about AI and all the open source tools were like,
有那么久了吗？
was it that long ago?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
超级棒。
Super.
说实话，我觉得那时候我可能拥有世界上最大的AI业务，老兄。
Well, like, honestly, I I feel like I might have had the biggest AI business in the world at that time, man.
比如
Like
我是说，那还是在聊天GPT出现之前。
I mean, that was pre chat chat GBT.
远在聊天GPT之前。
Way before chat GBT.
远在OpenAI带着他们最初的GPT模型出现之前。
Way before open a like, OpenAI didn't even exist with their first GPT models.
那时候什么都没有。
Like, there was nothing.
当时我们用的都是开源工具。
And it was like, there were open source tools for what we were doing.
比如，Face wise这类工具。
Like, it's face wise.
就像制作深度伪造视频那样。
It's like making deep fakes.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以，基本上，我的脚本就是做了一个很棒的界面，然后让AWS来托管GPU。
So, like, basically, all all my script does was put like a really nice interface and let AWS host the GPU.
这就是你付钱给我的主要原因。
So that's what you were basically paying me for.
对吧？
Right?
就像这样：付我15美元，我们就能制作视频，你只需要上网上传，点击提交，然后砰的一下，你的DPA就出来了。
It's like, pay me $15, we'll make the video, but you just have to like go on the web and just upload, click submit, and then boom, your DPA comes up.
你不需要操作任何终端，任何步骤，什么都不用。
You didn't have to do any terminal, any steps, any Yeah.
没有任何复杂的操作。
Anything crazy.
但现在情况是
But now it's like
流量偏移和扩散有多少？
How much flow shift and diffusion?
是啊。
Yeah.
但现在完全就是免费又简单。
But now it's just like, it's free, it's easy.
人们只需在MacBook上点点鼠标就能做出完全一样的东西。
People just point and click on their MacBooks and build the exact same thing.
所以，是的，我的生意下滑了大约80%。
So, yeah, my business is down, like, 80%.
靠。
Damn.
就是这样。
So it's yeah.
这也太疯狂了。
It's That's wild.
是啊。
Yeah.
但比特币相关业务又开始回暖了。
But the Bitcoin the Bitcoin stuff is starting to pick up again.
你懂吧？
You know?
终于，我有了一门不会让我进监狱的生意。
Finally, I have a business that won't throw me in jail.
最初的设想是让所有交易所都支持闪电网络。
The initial idea was for it was to get all the exchanges to have Lightning.
所以我们把它做得超级简单。
So we made it super easy.
我们有家合规公司，是注册的货币服务业务机构。
We have a regulated company, you know, where it's a registered money services business.
这样交易所就能和我们合作了。
So exchanges can work with us.
然后我们就出去了。
And then we went out.
我们和大概几百家交易所谈过，没人在乎闪电网络。
We talked to, like, hundreds of exchanges, and none of them give a shit about Lightning.
一家都没有。
None of them.
就像是在做一堆事情。
It's just like it's it's doing like a bunch of things.
第一，它鼓励人们把资产提离平台，这是交易所不想要的。
One, it's making people it's encouraging people to take assets off the platform, which they don't want.
第二，它摧毁了那些山寨币自称是更快比特币的一半说辞。
Two, it's destroying like half the shitcoin narratives about being a faster Bitcoin.
所以它消除了这一点。
So it removes that.
第三，这些交易所实际上都不自己管理UTXO。
And then three, like none of these exchanges actually manage their own UTXOs.
他们都在用Fireblocks或BitGo之类的服务，只是做了个API封装。
They're all using like Fireblocks or BitGo, and they're just like an API wrapper around it.
所以就像，如果你不和BitGo集成，我也没帮你省UTXO管理费，那我特么要闪电网络干嘛？
So it's like, if you don't integrate with BitGo and I'm not saving you any UTXO management fees, why the fuck would I want Lightning?
所以就像，你知道，花了一年时间才艰难地明白了这个道理。
So it was like, you know, went a year down that road of learning that the hard way.
但现在我们看到的是，真正的驱动力在于开发者拥有一个钱包。
But now what we're seeing is like the real driver is having a developer's wallet.
因为我们实际构建的是最适合开发者的钱包。
Because actually what we built is the best wallet for developers.
比如，你可以使用这个钱包，通过webhooks、API或Noster Wallet Connect进行连接。
Like, you can take this wallet, you could connect it with webhooks, with API, with Noster Wallet Connect.
你可以设置各种权限，比如超过50万金额需要邮件批准或多重签名。
You could set all sorts of permissions like, oh, anything over 500,000 needs an email approval or multisig.
我们构建的这个强大钱包你完全可以放心使用。
Like we built this crazy wallet that you can use.
所以如果你想开发一个比特币应用，不必担心被攻击或黑客入侵之类的问题。
So like, if you wanna spin up a Bitcoin app, you don't have to worry about being exploited or getting hacked and, like, all of this.
我们会帮你处理好一切。
Like, we just take care of everything.
这个方案正在逐渐获得认可。
And that seems to be picking up traction.
所以这算是...
So that's kind of
太棒了。
like awesome.
我确实能看出这对Pear Drive很有用，因为我们一直在考虑...告诉我这个怎么...
That act I can actually see that being useful with Pear Drive because we've been looking at tell me how this okay.
好的。
Okay.
可能我没理解Bitvora的范围。
Maybe I didn't understand the scope of Bitvora.
那就从这个角度给我介绍一下：我正在开发一个想集成Lightning的应用，希望让用户能掌控这个功能。
So give me give me the pitch for this from the context of like, I'm making an app that I want to integrate Lightning, and I want to make this so that the user can have that have control over that.
而且，实际上...你知道吗？
And also, potentially actually, you know what?
我们就从这里开始吧。
Let let's just start there.
不想给这个添加太多层次。
Don't wanna add too many layers to this.
给我分析下为什么这个工具对我有用或可能有用。
Give me the breakdown of why this tool would would or could be useful to me.
嗯，基本上这是个能连接任何应用的钱包。
Well, basically it's it's a wallet that can connect to any app.
目前你无法真正把钱包连接到应用，虽然Nasser Wallet Connect正在实现这个功能，但客户端需要支持Nasser Wallet Connect协议，而几乎没人这么做。
So right now you cannot connect wallets to apps really like Nasser Wallet Connect is getting there, but the client side needs to support Nasser Wallet Connect, which like nobody does.
是的。
Yeah.
Bitvora能让你通过API将钱包连接到应用，无论是发送还是接收支付，Lightning或链上交易都可以，毕竟大家都知道怎么用API。
So Bitvora makes it so you can connect your wallet to your app, whether you wanna send a payment or receive a payment, Lightning or Onchain with an API, which like everybody knows how to use APIs.
但不是所有人都知道怎么用Nasser Wallet Connect。
Not everybody knows how to use Nosser Wallet Connect.
或者简单用webhook也行，你知道的，五分钟就能快速编码实现webhook集成。
Or just basic webhooks, you know, like you can vibe code a webhook integration like five minutes.
是的。
Yeah.
用Bitvora。
With Bitvora.
所以这是唯一一个高度互联的钱包，同时还提供大量安全控制功能。比如如果你泄露了API密钥，或者在代码中出错，不小心发送了一百万美元而不是一百万聪之类的情况。
So it's the only wallet that is like highly connective like this, but it also gives you a lot of security controls, know, like if you leak your API key or you made a mistake in your code and you accidentally send a million dollars instead of a million sats or something.
就像有安全规则会阻止并防止你损失资金。
Like there are security rules that like block and prevent you from losing money as well.
所以这就像是一个真正安全的环境，可以让你放心整合比特币，而不用担心丢失所有币的风险。
So it's just like, it's a really safe environment to actually integrate Bitcoin without the risk of, like, losing all your coins.
它具备大量连接选项，试图为你提供多种选择，就像一个接口，让你拥有所有可用连接方式。因为我们原本打算大量使用Nostril Wallet Connect，未来我们会通过Pear Drive来掩盖你正在创建Nostril密钥的事实，等我们完善应用端功能后。
It's got a lot of connectivity ish a lot of connectivity options to try to give you so it's kind of like an interface between making it so that you have all those options available to you for how you want to connect to it because we our intent was to use Nostril Wallet Connect a lot because we're going to try to obscure away the fact that you're creating Nostril Keys with Pear Drive down the road, when we have like kind of the app app side of it.
但我们确实希望利用这个功能，尽管也有常规流程。
But we definitely wanted to use that or leverage that despite having a sort of normie flow as well.
但你说得对，NostrilWallet Connect确实存在支持不足的问题。
But we definitely like you're right about NostrilWallet Connect is the lack of support.
就像，你知道的，这就像一场持续的上坡战。
Like, you know, it's this constant uphill battle.
比如，你们支持这个吗？
It's like, well, do you support this?
你们支持这个吗？
Do you support this?
然后你就会面临两个选择。
And then you run into like, you have two options.
你知道吗？
You know?
也许那些选项还不错，但现在你完全被那两个选项的功能所限制。
And maybe those options are even decent, but now you're completely restricted with what those two options can do for you.
所以确实是这样。
So that actually yeah.
实际上这听起来真的很有趣。
That sounds really interesting, actually.
老兄，这其实是个超棒的钱包。
It's actually a really sick wallet, man.
让我惊讶的是居然没多少人尝试过，但那些真正尝试过的硬核开发者，比如Kieran，他正在把所有东西集成到后端里，像LMVPS现在就运行在BitVora上。所有硬核开发者，如果你用过节点并尝试在上面构建应用，你他妈绝对会爱上BitVora，因为用节点做这些简直是噩梦。
Like, I'm surprised a lot of people haven't tried it, but, like, the hardcore devs that have tried, like, Kieran, for example, like he's integrating it all in his back ends, like LMVPS has run on BitVora now, all the all the hardcore dev, if you've worked with nodes and try to build an app on a node, you'll fucking love BitVora because that is a nightmare to do that.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们让它变得如此简单。
And we just made it like so easy.
比如一些小功能，假设你想发送比特币而你是个小白，你只需要输入像guy@guyswan.com这样的邮箱，5美元金额，一行代码就能自动帮你转换。
Like just little things like, let's say you wanna send Bitcoin and you're a normie, you could just literally put like, you know, guy@guyswan.com, $5 USD and just one line of code and it will convert it for you.
不管是闪电网络地址、链上地址还是LNURL都没关系，它他妈让入门变得超级简单。
Doesn't matter if it's a lightning address, on chain address, LNURL, like it just it just makes it so fucking easy, to just get started.
所以这是我们目前的主打产品，但我们还即将重新发布一个真正完善好的节点列表。
So that's like that's like the main product we have now, but we're also just about to launch a reboot of node list that's actually done properly.
这就是BidVora Commerce
So it's the BidVora Commerce
产品。
product.
太棒了。
Sweet.
这完全是无托管模式。
That's completely no custody.
这正是我们使用Nosser Wallet Connect的地方。
That's where we use no our Nosser Wallet Connect.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
所以你可以选择无托管。
So you can have no custody.
当然，你知道，大多数人没有托管钱包，但他们可以轻松获取BidVora Wallet来连接，这就变成托管模式了。
And of course, like, you know, most people don't have it, but they can easily get a BidVora Wallet to connect, which would be custody.
但如果你想完全无托管、自托管、开源，这个方案确实适合你。
But, if you want to do full no custody, self host, open source, like this will actually work for you.
终于实现了我在节点列表上想要的功能，不过现在就算我进监狱也不会真的进监狱了。
So it's finally like what I wanted for node list, but now I actually won't go to jail when I go to jail.
回到绘图板，一块一块地重新构建，直到达成最初计划的目标，同时避免进监狱。
To go back to the drawing board and, like and and build it block by block again to get it where you had originally planned and not go to jail.
没错。
Yeah.
这次绝对不会进监狱了，老兄。
Definitely not going to jail this time, man.
那很好。
That's good.
那很好。
That's good.
我很感激。
I appreciate that.
你应该远离监狱。
You you should stay out of jail.
是啊。
Yeah.
理想情况下。
Ideally.
优先考虑。
Preferentially.
我觉得你在监狱外能比在监狱里建造更多东西。
I feel like you could build more stuff outside of jail than in it.
是啊。
Yeah.
希望如此。
I hope so.
不过在这种氛围下编程，很难说。
Although with this vibe coding, it's hard to say.
所以，是的，我是说，这是比特币方面的事，但你知道，还有很多其他事情在进行，比如我得到了OpenSats的赞助来搭建很多这类中继站。
So, yeah, I mean, that's the, that's the Bitcoin side, but, you know, there's also a lot of noster stuff going on, you know, like, got, I got sponsored by OpenSats to build a lot of these, like, relays.
看到了。
Saw that.
我看到了。
I saw that.
恭喜啊，兄弟。
Congrats, man.
我是说，这只是一小步。
I mean, it's it's a small gram.
是的。
It's Yeah.
但依然很酷。
But still still, that's cool.
老实说，就是被认可和得到一点支持的感觉。
Just honestly, just recognition and a little bit of, like, you're worth support.
就是，我也不太会形容。
Like, I don't know.
而且你值得这些。
Like and and you deserve it.
所以，恭喜你。
So, like, congrats.
谢了，兄弟。
Thank you, man.
我是说，这感觉确实不错。
It I mean, it does feel good.
就是，我记得大概2020年那会儿，我才刚开始捣鼓BTC支付服务器之类的，嗯。
If I think, like, just it was 2020 when I just, like, started playing around with, like, BTC pay server and, like Mhmm.
做些小提交什么的。
Doing little commits or whatever.
现在你看，我都成赞助开发者了，Nosta中继站有20%左右都在跑我的代码之类的。
And now I'm, a, you know, a sponsored dev and, like, something like 20% of Nosta Relays are running my code and stuff.
就，挺厉害的
Like, it's pretty
感觉相当可以啊。
it it feels pretty percent.
卧槽。
Damn.
确实在那儿，老兄。
It's there, man.
是啊。
Yeah.
就在上面。
It's up there.
给观众详细说说这个吧，反正我他妈根本不在乎。
Tell me give give the breakdown for the audience on that one because I man, I don't give a shit.
我超爱Nostril的。
I like I I love Nostril.
但我还是觉得，就...我也不知道。
And I I still think like, I I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不明白你怎么就看不到Nostril的潜力。
I don't know how you don't see the potential of Nostril.
我觉得很多人还停留在那种，怎么说呢，从外表看它就是社交媒体的阶段。
I I think a lot of people are still stuck in the whole, like, it's social media thing from the outside.
比如前几天还有个关于Dan Hild的话题。
Like, there was a thing about Dan Hild the other day.
不是说Nostril本该取代社交媒体吗？
It's like, wasn't Nostril supposed to take over social media?
我当时就想，真的吗？
And I was like, was it though?
其实社交媒体只是最初让它显得有趣的那个应用而已。
Like, social media was just kinda like the app that made it interesting from the from the outset.
这里面还有些非社交媒体的功能，才是我最期待的部分，但先从社交媒体入手构建确实更符合直觉。
Like, there's still, like, some some things that are non social media that are the most thing the things I'm most excited about it, but building it with social media makes intuitive sense to start with.
我不知道。
I don't know.
总之，替我去探索下Nostril的兔子洞吧。
Anyway, go go down the nostril rabbit hole, for me.
我可不想给那个L2垃圾币圈网红Dan Held的复读机注入太多生命力。
Well, I don't wanna breathe too much life into a failed l two shitcoiner fucking influencer Dan Held retriever.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们不必讨论那个。
We don't have to talk about that.
话题一提起来，这个念头就突然蹦进我脑子里了。
It just it that just popped into my head as soon as we brought up the topic.
伙计们，真烦人，老兄。
Guys, so annoying, man.
等等。
Wait.
我们现在是要开始直播了吗？还是说已经在录播客了？
Are are we going live with are we, like, doing the podcast now?
还是我们还在...
Or are we still
我们绝对是在录播客了。
We're totally doing the podcast.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
酷。
Cool.
直接开始吧。
Roll unfiltered.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我时间很紧，只想尽快完成这件事。
I had a hard time limit, and I wanted to wanted to get it done.
在你进来之前我就已经开始录音了。
I was recording before you even got in here.
我忘记说了
I forgot to tell
哦，Rip。
Oh, Rip.
是啊。
Yeah.
Noster，老兄。
Noster, man.
我实在无法理解，至少比特币圈子里的人怎么会看不到Noster，因为它和比特币有太多相似之处了。
I I truly can't understand at least how people in Bitcoin circles can, like, not see Noster because it's there are so many parallels with Bitcoin.
事实就是如此。
It just does.
这就像是，你知道什么更重要吗？
And it's like, you know, what is more important?
是你的言论自由还是你的钱？
Your your free speech or your money?
其实我觉得言论自由可能更重要
Like, I actually think free speech might be more important for
我觉得它们是一回事
I kinda think they're the same thing.
我觉得它们其实是相互依存的
I kinda I kinda think they're interdependent.
就像在问，你想变得更健康吗？
Like, it's it's like saying, do you wanna be healthier?
你想掌控自己的健康吗？
Do you wanna have control over your health?
这些本质上是一回事
It's like, those are the those are the same thing.
你懂我意思吗？
You know?
你必须先有掌控权才能保持健康，大概就是这个道理
Like, you you have to have control in order to be healthy kind of thing.
虽然这个类比不太完美，但它们确实是同一回事
Like, man, it's not the perfect analogy, but they're the same thing.
金钱是你价值主张的执行手段，而日常对话是你社会价值的执行方式
Like, money is the execution of your speech of value, and normal conversation is your execution of social value.
所以你有经济价值和社会价值，同时也有权以你认为合适的方式表达这些价值
It's like, so you have economic and social value, and you have the right to speak those things how you see fit.
如果你只拥有其中一种，那就不算真正拥有言论自由
You know, if you only have one of them, then you just don't have fools free speech.
你们只有经济言论，没有社交言论等等。
You you only have economic speech, not social speech, etcetera.
所以这就是我的看法。
So that that's my thought on that.
我认为它们是一回事。
I think they're the same thing.
是啊。
Yeah.
我我我觉得有种奇怪的现象，就像比特币玩家或许多比特币玩家，他们的身份认同与推特个人资料和粉丝数绑在一起。
I I I think there's something weird going on where it's just like, you know, Bitcoiners or many Bitcoiners, they're like their identities are tied up in their Twitter profiles and their follow counts.
而且，除了看看自己的持币量，他们唯一能感到特别的方式就是在推特上获得大量点赞。
And, like, the only way they feel special besides, like, looking at their stack maybe is, like, when they get a bunch of likes on Twitter.
我是说，这只是我的猜测。
I mean, I'd that's just my guess.
不过
But
老兄，我觉得这是非常非常人性的事。
Man, I think that's that's a very, very human thing.
比如，我就经常发现自己会想'天啊'。
Like, I can see my I I see myself all the time like, oh, man.
我收到了
I got a
很多点赞。
lot of likes.
天啊。
Oh, man.
我现在太酷了。
I'm so cool right now.
数字在飙升。
Doing numbers.
这感觉，哇哦。
And it's like, woah.
老天。
God.
看这家伙转发了。
Look at this dude retweeted it.
你懂吗？
You know?
就像...我们本质上是高度社会化的动物，但有时候你得退一步想想，好吧...
Like like so it's it's a like, we're we are deeply social animals, but, like, you gotta, like, step back and realize, like, okay.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
有一大群人赞同你说的那些话。
A whole bunch of people agree with you like what you said.
明白吗？
You know?
就像网上每个蠢货都能找到认同他们言论的小群体。
Like, every dumb fuck on on the Internet has groups of people who agree with what they said.
这根本说明不了什么。
It doesn't mean anything.
这并不意味着你不是个蠢货。
It doesn't mean you're not a dumb piece of shit.
懂吗？
You know?
就是，稍微低调点。
Like like, humble a little bit.
明白不？
You know?
比如，世界上蠢人多的是，你完全可以和那些笨蛋混在一起。
Like, there's plenty of stupid people you could just be hanging out with the dumb ones.
简直太对了。
Like like Totally.
随它去吧。
Let it go.
懂我意思吗？
You know?
而且，我那些所谓的粉丝里，至少80%都是小号，尤其是现在推特上。
And, like, of my whatever followers, at least 80% of them are only fan accounts, especially on Twitter these days.
太糟糕了。
That's so bad.
是啊。
Yeah.
我在努力回忆，因为在那之前我们混的是比特币推特圈。
And I I'm trying to remember, like because we were before Nasir, we were on Bitcoin Twitter.
我我我是说，我已经不是了。
I I I mean, I'm not anymore.
我我猜你是，因为你有个节目
I I assume you are because you got a show
而我还高高在上。
and I'm still up there.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
但我记得有过几次我们都集体迁移的情况。
But I remember there were a couple incidents where we all, like, mass migrated.
那是什么来着？
Like, what was that?
哦，那是什么来着？
Oh, what was that?
我甚至不记得另一个社交平台的名字了。
I don't even remember the name of the other social.
就是那个，不是真相社交的右翼平台。
The, like, the right wing one that's not truth social.
它叫什么来着？
What is it?
加布。
Gab.
是加布吗？
Is it Gab?
加布？
Gab?
我不知道。
I don't
加布是个大人物。
Gab was a big one.
那里有当地人。
There was locals.
有那么一分钟，我甚至在那里注册了一个账号。
There was, like, a minute that like, a bunch of I even set up an account over there.
有Truth Social。
There was Truth Social.
早在2018年左右，有人尝试使用Mastodon，结果真是
There was Way back in twenty eighteen ish, there was the attempt to do Mastodon, which was such a
一团糟。
mess.
那些比特币黑客？
The Bitcoin hackers?
是的。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
对啊。
Yeah.
就是吧，它虽然一时看起来很棒，但我始终没搞明白，因为整个协议太碎片化了。
Like, which it was, like, great for a minute, but it was so I never understood it because, like, that whole protocol is so segmented.
就像，根本没有通往任何地方的桥梁。
Like, you there's no bridge to anywhere.
比如，如果你只是待在里面，你的东西哪儿都带不走。
Like, if you're just in you can't take your stuff anywhere.
你带不走你的网络。
You can't take your network.
嗯。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
这就像是，那我们干嘛不直接用隔离服务器呢？
It's it's like, well, why don't I just why don't we just have, like, isolated servers?
你甚至为什么需要这种协议？
Why do you even need a protocol for this?
就是，对啊。
Like, Yeah.
这不就是个普通网站嘛。
It's just web website.
是啊。
Yeah.
直接在服务器上建个网站就行，嗯，就这样。
Just start a website on a server and, like, okay.
那咱们各做各的吧。
So let's all do different
随便找个比特币论坛。
Bitcoin forums somewhere.
我不知道。
I don't know.
就像...对啊。
Like Yeah.
这个我从来就没搞明白过。
That one never made sense to me.
Nostril是第一个让我瞬间觉得'卧槽'的。
Nostril's the first one that I was immediately like, oh, shit.
这里有个全局变量确实说得通。
There's, like, a global here that actually makes sense.
你可以不断连接中继站来扩展全局网络。
And you can just keep connecting to relays and expand your global.
这才是真正开放的版本。
And this is truly an open version of it.
懂我意思吗？
You know?
就像，那些继电器实际上是开着的。
Like like, the the relays are actually open.
就像，它确实如此。
Like, it actually is.
这就是为什么我觉得，这是第一个。
And that's why I was like, this is the first one.
因为我试遍了所有该死的方法。
Because I tried all of the damn things.
我真的试过了。
I really did.
只是对于去中心化社交媒体，我一直保持这种还算可以的态度，就像我过去做的那样。
It's just it I've been this for decent for decentralized social media in the same way that I've done.
我尝试了每一种愚蠢的点对点文件共享和存储方案。
I tried every stupid thing for peer to peer file sharing and storage and stuff.
但它们全都——全都糟透了。
And they all they all suck.
它们都曾有过希望。
They all have promise.
它们全都糟透了。
They all suck.
Nostra是第一个让我觉得‘好吧’的项目。
Nostra is the first one where I was like, okay.
这个确实有点东西。
This has something.
不仅如此，一切都如此简单。
And not only that, it's all so simple.
就像人们总是低估了'它确实有效'的力量，其实没那么复杂。
Like, people just god bless people discount the power of it just works, and it's not that complicated.
你懂吗？
You know?
而且我觉得人们完全低估了这一点的重要性。
And and I just I think people underestimate the ever loving shit out of that.
所以我不确定。
So I don't know.
不过确实。
But yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
我完全同意。
I I I totally agree.
对。
Yeah.
这对用户来说很简单，对开发者来说也超级容易。
And it's easy for users, but it's also super easy for developers.
明白吗？
You know?
比如，如果你是推特的话，我是说，我也不确定。
Like, if you're if you're Twitter, I mean, I don't know.
我就是这个意思。
That's what I mean.
比如，它的结构很容易用来构建。
Like, the structure of it is easy to build with.
明白吗？
You know?
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
这太简单了。
It's so easy.
我记得Twitter的API好像要收每月一千美元左右才能用他们的接口？
I think on Twitter, the the API is like, where are they trying, like, a thousand dollars a month or something to, like, use their API?
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
他们甚至都不一定会给你权限。
If they even give you permission to do it.
但在Oster上，真的就只是JSON这么简单。
But, like, on Oster, it's super it's just literally JSON.
无需权限。
No permission.
什么都不需要。
No nothing.
只要你签了名，它就有效。
As long as you sign it, it's valid.
你知道的，就像，
You know, like,
这太简单了。
it's so easy.
就像直接看原始数据一样。
It out just by, like, looking at the raw.
就像，你可以直接看原始数据。
Like, you can just look at the raw.
这有点像RSS订阅格式那种东西。
It's kinda like just like a RSS feed format type thing.
就像，你可以看到它的不同部分和内容，然后直接替换某些部分、签名并塞进去，再随便往互联网上一扔，它就会自动展示出来。
Like, you could just see the different sections of it and what it is, and you can just, like, replace things and then sign it and stick that in there, and then just kinda, like, throw it at the Internet, and and then it would just show off.
是啊。
Yeah.
你知道，这有点疯狂。
You know, it's kinda crazy.
是啊。
Yeah.
太酷了，兄弟。
It's sick, man.
而且我有，比如，我自己托管的中继服务器。
And I have, like, I have relays that I host myself.
当然，并不是每个人都自己托管中继服务器。
Of course, like, not everybody hosts their own relay.
但我查看我的中继服务器，发现有数百人直接连接到我的中继来获取我的笔记。
But I look at my relays, I see there's like hundreds of people connecting directly to my relay to get my notes directly.
我知道无论如何，我都能在任何地方启动我的中继服务器。
I know no matter what, like I can spin up my relay anywhere.
这完全是点对点的。
And it's truly peer to peer.
你不必经过推特，不必经过算法，直接连接到我的中继就能获取我的笔记。
You don't go through Twitter, you don't go through an algorithm, you just connect directly to my Relay, get my notes directly.
哥们，这才应该是它本来的样子。
Like that's how it's supposed to be, man.
还有件事，就像比特币爱好者们，我们热爱罗斯和维基解密，朱利安·阿桑奇，像Noster这样的东西其实本可以支撑他们继续运作的。
And that's like, you know, there's another thing, it's like Bitcoiners, you know, we we love Ross and WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, and stuff like Noster is actually, like, what could have kept them going and Mhmm.
而不是让他们所有的东西都被查封。
Not get all their shit seized.
但不知为何，他们至今仍在诋毁Noster，这真的很奇怪。
But, you know, they're just still hating on Noster for some reason, which is just so weird.
你懂吗？
You know?
不喜欢它、不使用它是一回事。
It's it's one thing to not like it and not use it.
好吧。
Like, okay.
它太小了或者怎样，我就是想跳出比特币的圈子。
It's too small or whatever, or I wanna connect outside of Bitcoin.
好吧。
Okay.
没关系。
That's fine.
但是，为什么你要讨厌一个与比特币理念如此契合的东西呢？
But, like, why would you hate on something that is, like, so aligned with with Bitcoin ideals?
这简直让人难以置信。
Like, that's something that's just truly mind blowing.
让我困惑的是，我在不同场合和很多人有过同样的对话。
The thing that gets me and I've had the same conversation with people in so many different contexts.
就像，你知道的，我会说我超爱用Fold，大家都知道这事。
It's like, you you know, I'll talk about, like, I use the crap out of Fold, and everybody knows that.
他们又没赞助这个节目。
Like, they're not sponsoring the show.
我就是喜欢用Fold，喜欢聊自己用的东西。
I just I like I use Fold, I talk about the things that I use.
然后每个人都‘呃，KYC（了解你的客户）’这样。
And everybody's like, ugh, KYC.
我就说，但你有银行卡吗？
And I'm like, but do you have a bank card?
你是要告诉我你没有借记卡或信用卡吗？
Are you telling me you don't have a debit or a credit card?
因为这就是KYC（了解你的客户），老兄。
Because that's KYC, man.
问题是，你是想要KYC并获取配套服务，还是想要传统银行体系中的KYC？
Like, the question is, do you want do you want KYC and get sets, or do you want KYC in the traditional banking system?
我看到人们讨论时也提到，KEET用户界面尚未开源，或者Noster目前只是聚合了一堆热门中继服务器。
And I see the same thing as people talk about how, like, the KEET UI isn't open source yet, or Noster is like it just has, a bunch of popular relays.
我还在推特和电报上和他们争论。
And I'm arguing with them on Twitter and Telegram.
我就说，是啊，但政府在电报上不也有后门吗？你在这干嘛呢？
And I'm like, yeah, but the government has a backdoor on like, what are you doing here on Telegram?
你在推特上又是在干嘛？
What are you doing here on Twitter?
你意识到没有，你对Noster的不满之处，在你花时间争论的这个平台上要严重一千倍。
You realize, like, your complaint about what what you dislike about Noster is like a thousand times worse in the medium that you were sitting on investing time in and arguing with me.
你看，我就说...好吧，你也没有完美的解决方案。
You know, like I just Okay, you don't have a perfect solution.
好吧，Noster也许不完美，但总比我们在这争论强吧？
Okay, Noster may not be a perfect solution, but is it not better than where we are arguing about it?
是啊。
Yeah.
我们是在朝正确方向前进，还是说...这看起来像一场巨大无休止的战役——‘完美是好的敌人’，每个人都在追逐不存在的东西？
Are we moving in the right direction, or are we just saying that because like, it it seems like a giant and endless battle of perfect is the enemy of good, and everybody's chasing things that don't exist.
就像，所有人都在追逐一个能服务80亿人、支持无限链上交易、完全主权、毫无妥协的比特币幻想。
Like, everybody's chasing a Bitcoin that scales to 8,000,000,000 people and as many transactions as they possibly want, all on chain and all sovereign, and there's no trade offs and there's no nothing.
那东西从未被发明过。
That's never been invented.
而且永远也不会被发明。
And it never will be.
它从来就不管用。
It never works.
由于贾冯悖论的存在，它永远都不可能实现。
It never will be because of Javon's paradox.
等我们真到了那个阶段——人人都能用比特币主权式地每周采购一次日用品，人们就会发现上百种其他用途，届时我们需要百倍的扩容能力，而所有人都会因为它仍不完美而恼火。
As soon as we actually get to the point where everybody could buy, you know, their groceries once a week on Bitcoin in a sovereign way, people will find a 100 other things to use it for, and we will need a 100 times the scaling, and everybody will be pissed that it's still not perfect.
就像，扩容永无止境。
Like, it will the scale there's no end to scaling.
这就像在说，哦，人们对日常生活的需求是有尽头的。
That's like saying that, oh, there's an end to what people need in their daily life.
不，当你满足了他们现有的需求后，他们又会产生新的需求。
Well, no, after you fulfill the needs that they currently have, they just develop new needs.
这事没有终点。
There's no conclusion to this.
不存在完美的终局。
There's no perfect end story.
没有完全的主权。
There's no fully sovereign.
一切都是概率性的。
Everything is probabilistic.
凡事皆有取舍，一切不过是轨迹。
Everything is a trade off, and everything is just a trajectory.
你是否在让自己的处境变得更好、更自主？
Are you making your situation better and more sovereign?
还是让它变得更糟、更依赖他人？
Or are you making it shittier and more dependent?
别刷推特了，来Noser上玩会儿吧。
Get off of Twitter and come hang out on Noser for a minute.
懂我意思吗？
You know?
就是...
Like
不。
No.
他们太忙了，忙着用蓝V认证抱怨KYC审核——就是付钱给埃隆后还得等着那种。话说我觉得我好像还有蓝V。
They're too busy, like, with their blue check complaining about KYC on hold after they, you know, pay Elon and get I think I still have a blue check.
我觉得我有。
I think I do.
我记得我付过钱的。
I think I paid I think I paid for it.
我不确定。
I don't know.
得回去查KYC验证，老兄。
I'd have to go back KYC, man.
KYC。
KYC.
不。
No.
我是说，看看。
I mean, like, look.
我我是不支持KYC的粉丝，但我的意思是，信用你知道的，在Bitvora解决这个问题之前，你还不能在所有地方使用比特币支付。
I'm I'm a fan of of no KYC, but I mean, credit you know, you can't use Bitcoin payments everywhere yet until Bitvora fixes that.
但让我们支持Bitvora吧。
But Let's go Bitvora.
是的。
Yeah.
我们开始吧。
Let's go.
我们开始吧。
Let's go.
你知道的，就像，如果你要用信用卡或借记卡并且能获得积分，难道你不希望你的积分升值吗？
You know, like, yeah, if you're gonna use a credit card or a debit card and you're gonna get reward points, wouldn't you rather your reward points go up in value?
基本上这就是Fold正在做的。
Like, that's basically what Fold is doing.
对吧？
Right?
就像
Like
字面意思就是这样。
That that is literally it.
就像，我只想摆脱传统信用卡。
Like, I just want to get rid of my traditional credit card.
就像，这就是我对Fold的唯一诉求。
Like, that's been my only thing with Fold.
我甚至不在乎，比如，好吧，你得用Gemini来做这件事。
And I don't even care, like, okay, you got do it with Gemini.
我是说，我在想，也许应该做一家纯比特币公司，而不是山寨币公司。
I mean, I'm like, maybe do a Bitcoin only company rather than a Shitcoin company.
但如果你只想要聪（Sats），他们也能提供。
But if you're just looking for Sats, they do that too.
但是，就像，我还没有完全转向Fold的唯一原因——虽然我想在日常生活中尽可能多地赚取聪——就是因为这张借记卡不能在所有地方使用，比如我无法用它租车。
But, like, the idea of like like, the only reason I haven't fully gone Fold to just get as as much stats as I can on just my normal daily life is just because the debit card can't use every like, I can't rent a card with rent rent a car with the full debit card.
我无法用它注册DigitalOcean订阅。
I can't sign up for I can't do my DigitalOcean subscription.
他们不接受预付借记卡。
They don't take prepaid debits.
有一大堆订阅服务都不行。
There's a bunch of subscription things.
我是说，真的很多。
I mean, a bunch.
大概有五个左右。
There's like five.
但有些事情我还是必须依赖传统银行和传统信用卡。
But there's like a number of things that I just have to have traditional banking and a traditional credit card for.
但一旦有了信用卡，我就能用它处理所有借记卡无法完成的事情，之后直接还款就行。
But as soon as I have a credit card, I can use that for all of the things that I can't take a debit card, and I can just pay it off.
你懂吗？
You know?
就像，我完全可以实现无缝操作——真正处于比特币标准下，能几乎实时地进出银行账户，利差大概只有0.4%，这是我计算的平均值，基本可以忽略不计。
Like, I can actually go full like, the the seamlessness of actually being on a Bitcoin standard and being able to just, like, go in and out of my my banking, like, almost instantaneously for like, think it's, like, a point 4% spread, I think, is the average that I I calculate, which is nothing.
这比所有
It's better than all the
其他服务都好。
other Compared to everything else.
服务。
Services.
明白吗？
You know?
就像，我根本不用考虑这个。
Like, I I don't think about it.
默认能获得0.5%返利，通常还有1%到2%的额外收益。
I get point 5% back default and usually one to 2%.
所以最后都扯平了，我还能攒点聪（SAT）。
So it's it all evens out in the end, and I get a little bit of SAT savings.
但我也说不准。
But I don't know.
我只是觉得，不会出现那种一切都变成比特币、一切都完美无缺的巨大飞跃。
I just there's there's I don't think there's gonna be any great leap where, like, everything is Bitcoin and everything is perfect.
这不就像是，目标不就是一步步循序渐进地实现吗？
And it's like, isn't the goal to just, like, constantly stair step there?
这，这是一个过程。
Like, it it's a it's a process.
要知道，互联网曾是一场去中心化的革命，但它完成了吗？
You know, the Internet was a decentralized revolution, but is it done?
已经过去差不多三十年了。
It's been, like, thirty years.
三十四十年，现在都快四十年了。
Thirty forty almost forty years now.
互联网完成了吗？
Is the Internet done?
没有。
No.
还差得远呢。
So far from it.
那么，你会因为互联网尚未实现其理想就拒绝使用它，还是会利用它现有的功能，然后在你所处的新环境中构建解决问题的方案？
So would you not use the Internet because it hasn't fulfilled its dream, or would you use it for what you can use it for and then build the solution to the problem in the new place that you're in?
比特币最初不就是这样诞生的吗？
Isn't that how Bitcoin exists in the first place?
是啊。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我打算在推特上抱怨这件事。
I'm just gonna complain about it on Twitter.
我打算到处角色扮演。
I'm just gonna LARP around.
而且我认为，那些为此哭诉的人，他们绝对没有以比特币为标准生活。
Well and I also think, like, a lot of the people who cry about that, they absolutely do not live on a Bitcoin standard.
他们根本不明白那意味着什么。
Like, they don't know what that means.
他们只是，你知道，可能买了一些比特币并持有，因为他们希望价格上涨之类的。
They just, like, you know, maybe they buy and they're holding some Bitcoin because they want the number to go up or whatever.
但是
But
说得好。
That's a good point.
你知道，他们不愿意花掉它。
You know, they don't want to spend use it.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且我甚至不一定是指花掉它。
And and I don't I don't even mean it necessarily, like, spend it.
我是说，他们只是不怎么进行交易。
I mean, they just, like, don't make transactions very much.
他们其实并不使用它。
They don't they don't really use it.
他们购买后就直接冷藏保存，这没问题。
They they buy it, and it just goes in cold storage, which is fine.
通常这样是可以的。
That's usually fine.
是的。
Yep.
储蓄嘛，我的意思是，你可以引用我的话，听起来可能和我之前100期节目里说的完全相反。
Savings is a I mean, you can quote me sounding like I'm saying the exact opposite from probably a 100 episodes of the show.
但这也源于人们思考工具的本质——如果你不是每天进行交易，就不会考虑这些工具为何重要。
But also just in the nature of the tools that people are thinking about, like, if you're not doing transactions every day, you're not thinking about why those tools matter.
但对我而言很重要，因为我每天进行的比特币交易比法币还多，多年来一直如此。
But they do to me because I do I do more Bitcoin transactions than I do Fiat and have for years every single day.
没错，正是如此。
Yeah, exactly.
比特币就是钱。
Like like Bitcoin is money.
如果你要花钱，我们就需要能轻松花钱的解决方案。
And if you spend money, like, we need solutions to easily be able to spend our money.
是啊。
Yeah.
我想这就是我们（或者说不是我）开发这些东西的原因吧。
I guess that's why we build the stuff, or I don't build it.
我试图寻找像你这样的人，并通过向你投注sat来共同构建它。
I I try to find people like you, and I throw sats at you to build it.
谢谢。
Thank you.
感激他们。
Appreciate them.
老兄，我可能真的没意识到具体是什么情况，我知道Bitvora，但还没深入研究过。
Dude, I'm I literally might be I I didn't even realize exactly what like, I knew of Bitvora, but I hadn't dug into it.
但这可能真的非常接近我们一直在寻找的东西。
But this this may literally be much closer to what we've been looking for.
而我们甚至还没达到目标。
And we haven't even gotten there yet.
懂我意思吗？
You know?
就像，我们现在还处于alpha阶段，可能还需要些时间，我不愿设定期限。
Like, we're still in like, alpha's probably within a few, I'm not gonna say, a time limit.
但感觉真的非常接近了，因为我一直在用Pear Drive在设备间同步。
But it feels like it's really, really soon because I've been using Pear Drive to sync between devices.
但它总是崩溃。
It just crashes.
我手头的版本还没有任何错误处理机制。
It doesn't have any error handling in the version that I have yet.
不错。
Nice.
但说真的，这依然是电脑间传输文件最便捷的方式。
But literally, it's still the easiest way to move stuff between computers.
我还给我妻子、父母和兄弟都演示过这套操作。
And I've demonstrated it to my wife, my parents, and my brother or whatever.
有趣的是，就像现在这样，在Finder里一切都能顺畅运行。
And it's funny because one like like, right now, it all just works, like, in the Finder.
它就像...能自动监控文件夹并实时同步。
It just, like, works it it just watches a folder and then automatically syncs.
最棒的是我们都经历过电脑间传文件的抓狂时刻。
But it's cool because we know the frustrations of moving a file from one computer to another.
你懂吧？
You know?
那种感觉简直糟透了。
Like, that's just a pain in the ass.
前几天我们试图用iCloud相册和五个人共享照片。
We were just trying to share iCloud, like, photos the other day with, like, five people.
结果我岳母和兄弟完全搞不懂怎么操作。
And two of like, my mother-in-law and my brother just didn't get it.
发给我兄弟时还报错了，就只是...邀请加入相册这种简单操作。
There was an error when I sent it to my brother, and and it was just, like, invite to the album.
明白吗？
You know?
结果我还得登录账号，在浏览器里输验证码，最后又得回到电脑前操作。
And I had to log in and do, like, a captcha in the browser, and I had to go back to my computer.
就是，我在想，这个是在我手机上。
Like, I'm like, I'm in the this is on my phone.
就是，为什么...你现在在对我做什么？
Like, why do I what are you doing to me right now?
是啊。
Yeah.
所以这就像是一个过程，然后它对两个人都不起作用，而且这两人都用iPhone。
And so it was like a it was like a process, and then it didn't work for two people, both who have iPhones.
我当时就觉得，这也太蠢了。
And I was just like, this is so stupid.
然后，我给他们演示时，我妻子就有点觉得，这听起来很酷，但不太明白为什么这会是件大事。
And then, like, I showed them and my wife is just kinda like, this sounds cool, but I don't quite know why this would be a big deal.
她就是，凭直觉觉得，好吧，这可能有点意思。
It just it like, she kinda intuitively kinda gets that, like, okay, that might be interesting.
但当我演示给她看时，因为我只是在我的Mac和Linux机器上各打开了一个文件夹，然后我把文件拖进了Mac上的文件夹。
But when I showed it to her, because I just had a folder open on my Mac and a folder open on my Linux machine, and I dragged and dropped it to my folder on my Mac.
然后大概半秒钟后，就'咻'的一下。
And then within about half a second, it was bloop.
就是'咻咻'这样。
This is just bloop bloop.
它就在另一台设备上弹出来了，我又拖了一个文件，'咻咻'。
It popped up on the other one, and I dragged another one bloop bloop.
你知道的，再拖一个又是'咻咻'。
You know, dragging another one bloop bloop.
我刚拖动了15个，它们正在慢慢加载进来。
And I just dragged 15, and it's like, they're, like, slowly loading in.
然后她就说，好吧。
And she was like, okay.
我能看到这个。
I can see this.
我能看出来这会很酷。
I can see this would be cool.
这只是一个构建工具，然后我们会在它基础上开发一个应用。
And this is just the tool that you build with, then we're gonna build an app on top of it.
但是，能够把支付功能加进去，我认为会是件大事，因为我觉得主要障碍在于如何简化流程，降低门槛让更多人参与或提供服务，这比人们想象或认可的要更具革命性。
But, like, able to like, adding payments into that, I think is gonna be a big deal because, like, so much of what I think the barrier is, making it easier, lowering the barrier to more people doing or providing something, I think, is more revolutionary than people think or respect.
YouTube所做的只是降低了制作视频和获得观众的门槛。
All YouTube did was lower the barrier entry of entry to making videos and having an audience.
是的。
Yep.
仅此而已。
That's all it did.
以前你需要有大型广播媒体公司对你的作品感兴趣。
Like, you used to have to have a big broadcast media company interested in your work.
你的作品质量必须达到他们感兴趣的标准。
You had to have a degree of quality that they would be interested in.
你还得说他们想听的内容。
You also had to say the things that they wanted they wanted to hear.
当时有一种非常封闭的文化氛围。
So there was a very tight culture.
而YouTube直接表示，现在任何人都能看到这些内容。
And YouTube just said, well, now anybody can see this.
你可以发布任何你想发的愚蠢玩意。
You can post whatever stupid crap you want.
而旧文化对此是排斥的。
And the old the old culture shunned it.
他们说，这太蠢了。
They said, this is stupid.
这绝对行不通。
This is never gonna work.
这些人都不专业。
These aren't professionals.
就像在说，是啊。
It's like, well, yeah.
没错。
Sure.
但在你们和完全没有媒体之间还存在一个巨大的市场空白，你们无法触及，也永远无法触及，因为你们的思维方式局限了这一点。
But there's also going to be this massive market between you and no media at all that you can't serve and you will never be able to serve because of how you think about it.
将来会出现15秒的蠢事视频，其点击量会超过你们所有播出内容的历史总和。
And there are going to be fifteen second videos of somebody doing something stupid to get more views than you have ever had on anything that you have ever broadcast ever.
懂吗？
You know?
你就是不明白。
Like, you just don't understand.
我认为对所谓的社交媒体做同样的事情来存储数据，这就是为什么我希望PearDrive能像你说的那样，比如运行你自己的Relay。
And I think doing that same thing to quote, unquote social media to storage this is why I want PearDrive to actually be like, you talk about, like, running your own Relay.
比如，我很希望能有一种点对点的方式连接，让你可以共享他人的Relay。
Like, I would love to have a peer to peer way to connect that you have shared other people's Relay.
所以，比如说，因为道格，这有点像是一个小小的梦想。
So, like, let's say because, Doug, that's kind of the dream a little bit.
对吧？
Right?
就是你有一个Relay。
Is that you have a Relay.
我连接到你并下载你的帖子。
I connect to you and I download your posts.
我有一个Relay。
I have a Relay.
你连接到我。
You connect to me.
那如果我现在需要设置一个URL，比如一个域名呢？
Well, what if I'm, right now, that requires setting up a URL, like a domain.
这是个很大的障碍。
And that is a big barrier.
对普通人来说这是个巨大的障碍。
That is a huge barrier for the average person.
那么，如果你只需要有一台联网的电脑，别人就能从你这里下载呢？
Now what if all you have to have is one of your computers online and somebody can download from you?
如果你没联网但从我这里下载过，我兄弟就能从你那里下载，因为你不久前刚看过。
And if you are not online and you downloaded it from me, my brother can download it from you because you just looked at it a little while ago.
现在每个人都在不知不觉中成为了中转节点，甚至没意识到自己在做中转。
And now everybody kinda has a relay without even thinking about the fact that they have a relay.
没错。
Right.
仅仅因为它能连接。
Just because it can connect.
但这并不意味着所有人都会一直在线，所有信息都能随时访问。
And that doesn't mean that everybody is always going to be online and all of the information is always going to be accessible.
但重点不在这里，因为总会有所谓的'商业中转站'来整合这些信息。
But that's not the point because you will still have, quote, unquote, commercial relays that will aggregate it.
对。
Right.
所以你可以利用这些准专业用户的市场，现在实际上可以让他们产生收益。
So you can leverage that market of kind of prosumers, and now you can actually monetize those people.
比如，BT时代最让我感兴趣的是，我会看到有人'被抓'，然后读Torrent Freak的报道。
Like, one of the things that always interested me about the Torrent days is I would see people, quote, unquote, get caught, and I'd read like Torrent Freak.
当执法人员突袭抓捕时，他们会说'我们查获了80TB的数据'——要知道在那个年代80TB简直疯狂。
And, you know, when they came in and they swatted and busted people, and it's like, we found 80 terabytes versus stuff back when 80 terabytes was bonkers.
明白吗？
You know?
80TB现在看还算回事，但当年简直是疯了。
80 terabytes is still something, but back when that was batshit.
就像这阴暗角落，像我的地下室，或者这个堆满破烂和纸箱的破房间，我现在就坐在这里。
And it's like this dingy it's like my basement or there's this stupid room full of crap and boxes that I'm sitting in right now.
懂吗？
You know?
就像某人房间的角落，摆着两台电脑，还有成堆的硬盘。
It was just like somebody's corner of their room, and they have, like, two computers with, like, stacks of hard drives.
他们就这样持续给BitTorrent网络喂入TB级、TB级又TB级的电影音乐这些玩意儿。
And they've just been feeding the BitTorrent network terabytes and terabytes and terabytes of movies and music and shit.
我当时就想，这些人居然免费干这个
And I'm like, these guys did this for free
太棒了。
So good.
纯粹因为好玩。
Just because it was fun.
没错。
Yep.
明白吗？
You know?
想想看，要是能加入支付功能。
Like, think about if you could put payments in that.
那就是正经企业了。
That's a professional enterprise.
这类人完全可以多投资一点，让系统更稳定些，在其他地方再部署个节点，他们只需从中赚个几百美元就行，毕竟他们本来就在免费提供服务。
That's somebody who could actually invest a little bit more, make it a little bit more stable, put another node somewhere else, and all they have to do is make a couple $100 off of that because they're already doing it for free.
你懂我意思吗？
You know?
这就像，一个全新的市场。
Like, that's a new market.
那是个全新的市场。
That's a new market.
我们需要Bitvora这样的工具。
And we need a tool like Bitvora.
我们需要类似Breeze SDK这样的开发工具包来实现这个目标，因为必须简化流程，让人们能‘不费脑子’地拥有钱包。
Like, we we need the SDKs, like Breeze SDKs out there in order to make that possible because it has to be simplified so that people can quote unquote have a wallet without thinking about it.
是啊。
Yeah.
我在想，用Noster Wallet Connect的话，比如你进入Bitvora后可以说：知道吗？
And I'm just thinking like, you could with Noster Wallet Connect, so like, you could go into Bitvora and be like, you know what?
为了文件共享，我愿意每月花10美元随便用。
For file sharing, I'm willing to spend $10 a month on whatever.
于是我设置了Nosser Wallet Connections用于媒体分享，然后接入你们的应用。
So I set up that Nosser Wallet Connections for my media sharing and then I plug it into your app.
现在我能支付了，比如下载个10兆或100兆的文件，你们按每兆10聪收费。
I can now pay, like let's say I download, I don't know, 10 megabyte file or a 100 megabytes, whatever it is, and you're charging 10 sats per megabyte.
我根本不用生成发票或处理付款请求，聪会自动开始流传输，永不停歇。
Like I don't actually have to spin up invoices and pay an invoice request or anything like those sats just start streaming automatically and it will never go.
你永远无法从那笔转账中取出超过10美元。
You can never take more than $10 out of that connection.
而我随时可以登录并终止那笔转账。
And I can just log in and kill that connection whenever I want.
不像信用卡，如果你把信用卡给商家，谁知道会有什么麻烦？
Unlike credit cards, you you give a vendor your credit card, it could be hard Who to knows?
你知道，他们突然把卡信息泄露给别人，你就得注销整张卡和所有账户
You know, they give it away to somebody suddenly have to cancel your whole card and all your accounts
你刚刚就这么做了。
You just go did that.
是啊。
Yeah.
我刚刚不得不注销了我的卡。
I just had to cancel my card.
有个愚蠢的骗局每周扣我2.99美元。
Some some stupid scam charging me $2.99 a week.
而且金额还是随机的。
And it was and it was random too.
有一笔是1.98美元。
There's one was, like, $1.98.
有一笔是3.50美元。
One was, like, $3.50.
就
Like
真烦人。
So annoying.
是啊。
Yeah.
真他妈烦人。
So fucking annoying.
但是你看，Nosy Connect彻底解决了这个问题，你可以完全控制钱包的所有连接，直接删除后那个供应商就再也无法向你收费了。
But, like, Nosy Connect fully fixed, like, you control all the connections to your wallet and you could just delete it and that now that vendor can never charge you again.
他们永远无法共享那些信息。
They can never share that information.
这简直太棒了。
Like, it is so sick.
类似的例子数不胜数。
There's so many examples like that.
比如文件共享，对吧。
Like, file sharing, okay.
对。
Yeah.
这是一个例子。
That's one.
但类似的可能有数百万个
But there's, like, probably millions
哦，没错。
Oh, yeah.
关于我们能做到的方式。
Of ways that we can do this.
现在终于成为可能，因为闪电网络的用户体验长期以来太过笨拙。
And now it's actually possible because the like the Lightning UX was too clunk for so long.
你知道，就像我得向你索要发票，然后还得复制粘贴一长串信息或扫描二维码。
You know, like I have to request an invoice from you and then it's like copy and paste along string or get a QR code.
这也太麻烦了，老兄。
Like this is too much, man.
就像你只需一次性连接这个应用，它就会关联到我的钱包。
Like just a one time you connect to this app's connected to my wallet.
之后再也无需操作，所有支付都能自动完成。
I never have to touch it again, and all the payments just flow.
这简直完美。
Like, that's perfect.
某种程度上这就是Bunker试图实现的效果。
It's kinda what Bunker was trying to be.
从某种意义上说，Insect Bunker——我依然认为密钥分离的价值所在，其用户体验本可以做得更好，类似Nostril WalletConnect那种体验绝对会是杀手级功能。
In in a sense, Insect Bunker, which I still think because of the value of separating your keys, like, I I still think the UX made way better, like, kind of a Nostril WalletConnect sort of UX around that would would be killer.
但将这部分分离出来，正是这一切的核心价值。
But separating that out, like, that is the whole value of all this.
这就是为什么我认为人们严重低估了新网络及其上层架构的价值——即便它们看似毫不相关。
And that's why I think people really, really discount how much new networks and things on top that aren't even related.
比如，大家总是在寻找比特币的二层解决方案之类的东西。
Like, everybody's always looking for a layer two solution or something on Bitcoin.
就像，是的，但像Nostr这样与比特币无关的东西实际上可以解决大量比特币和闪电网络的问题。
It's like, yeah, but something like Nostr that has nothing to do with Bitcoin could actually solve a staggering number of Bitcoin problems and lightning problems.
而且你不必基于比特币来修复比特币的问题。
And you don't have to build on Bitcoin to fix Bitcoin's problems.
很多这些限制就像是，哦，现在你必须拥有一个域名。
So many of those limitations are like, oh, now you have to have a domain name.
就像是，好吧。
It's like, okay.
换句话说，你需要解决域名问题才能解决这个比特币问题。
So in other words, you need to solve a domain name problem to solve this Bitcoin problem.
这样想想看。
Think about it like that.
不是所有问题都需要通过UTS脚本或操作码之类的来解决。
Not everything has to be a UTS script or an opcode or something to solve a problem.
你说的是在没有第三方的情况下，没有一个简单的方法来连接和向某人请求信息。
You're talking about not not having an easy way to connect and request information to somebody without a third party.
这可能不是比特币需要解决的问题。
That doesn't need that that might not be a Bitcoin problem.
你懂吗？
You know?
但是，毫无疑问，自从我开始为NesterWallet Connect使用AlbieGo或AlbieHub后，完全改变了我对开发方向的看法。
But, yeah, without a doubt, no everything since I started using AlbieGo or AlbieHub for NesterWallet Connect has completely changed my thinking about the direction of development there.
在我看来，NWC就像是Nostr的杀手级应用。
Like, NWC is, like, the killer app for Nostril, in my opinion.
比如，再加上社交媒体功能简直太酷了。
Like, and social media on top of it is just cool.
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，Noster平台上有许多功能其实与社交媒体无关，比如它只是个连接钱包和应用的程序协议。
I mean, there there are so many things coming out of of Noster that are like not social media, like just a protocol to connect wallets to apps.
比如没人会这么想Noster，你知道吗？但这确实简单多了。
Like nobody's thinking of Noster with that, know, but it's just, it's so much easier.
然后简单回应下你关于需要设置域名的问题。
And then just briefly touch on your point around like, I need to set up a domain.
其实你根本不需要。
Like, actually you don't.
现在有成千上万个完全免费开放的转发服务器。
Like, there are thousands of relays that are completely free and open.
你可以直接使用它们。
You can just use them.
而且你永远不需要依赖单一服务器，明白吗？
And you don't ever have to depend on one, you know?
比如你想连接钱包，可以同时连接10个转发服务器。
Like, you wanna connect your wallet, you could connect to 10 relays.
就算其中一半封禁你，你还有另一半可用。
And if half of them ban you, like, well, you still got the other half.
我甚至觉得这根本不算问题。
I don't even think that's a problem.
就像，你知道的，你应该运行自己的节点。
It's just like if, you know, like you should run your own node.
我认为，你知道的，很多比特币铁杆粉丝都会运行自己的节点，但你当然不必这么做。
I think, you know, a lot of hardcore Bitcoiners run your own node, but of course you don't have to.
你
You
知道吗，有成千上万的节点可以连接来广播你的交易。
know, there are thousands of nodes you can connect to to broadcast your transactions.
所以这不是必须的。
So it doesn't it's not required.
这只是更基础的操作。
It's just more base.
如果你这么做会更酷，但不是必须的。
It's just cooler if you do, but you don't have to.
如果你想用更好的方式储蓄，现在就能免费获得20,000聪（按10万比特币算约合20美元）。
If you wanna save in better money and you want 20,000 sats for free right now, it's about $20 at a 100,000 of Bitcoin.
试试Fold吧。
Check out Fold.
每次我刷这张卡时，都能获得0.5%返现，有时1%，有时甚至1.5%。
Every time I swipe this card, I get point 5%, sometimes one, sometimes even one and a half percent.
购买大商户的礼品卡时，我能获得2%、3%、5%甚至10%的返现。
I can get two, three, five, even 10% on gift cards with major merchants.
通过零头凑整、礼品卡、自动累积和每笔消费的SATsBACK返现，Fold真的帮我完成了所有工作，而且都以比特币计价。
Between the roundups, the gift cards, the auto stacking, the SATsBACK on every single swipe, Fold literally does all of the work for me, and it is denominated in Bitcoin.
仅凭使用这张卡，我的储蓄就超过了美国90%的普通消费者。
And I have more savings just by using this card than 90% of The United States normal consumer.
我这里有一个推荐链接给你。
I've got a referral link for you right here.
特别感谢Fold赞助我的工作，老实说它是我坚持比特币标准最重要的服务。
Shout out to Fold for sponsoring my work and honestly being the most important service for my being on a Bitcoin standard.
我之前和帕克·刘易斯讨论过这个，因为他似乎对Nostrad持消极态度，虽然我很尊重他，但我不在乎。
I was talking with Parker Lewis about this because he seems to have a negative Nancy view of Nostrad, which mad respect, I don't care.
我爱帕克。
I love Parker.
但我常听到的一种说法是，大多数人只使用少数几个热门的中继站或客户端之类的。
That was But that's like a common thing that I hear is that like, oh, well, most people only use like a few popular relays or popular clients or whatnot.
我认为那些不使用它的人对此的看法，被他们与传统社交媒体的互动方式扭曲了，因为我实际上连一个Noster应用都不用。
And I think the perspective around what that looks like from people who aren't using it is is skewed by, like, how people interact with traditional social media because I literally like, I don't even use one Noster app.
我敢肯定，有些刚接触的人会认为Primal就是Noster，只是因为他们了解得还不够多。
Like, I'm sure, like, some people who get onboarded think that, oh, it's just like, Primal is Noster because they just don't know enough yet.
是的。
Yep.
但我实际上用的是Olas。
But I literally use Olas.
我用Primal。
I use Primal.
我用Domus。
I use Domus.
目前这三款应用在我的iPhone上基本可以随意切换使用。
All three basically interchangeably right now on my iPhone.
我在电脑上用Domus的note deck，偶尔也会打开Coracle。
I use note deck from Domus on my computer, and, I still break out Coracle every once in a while.
而且我喜欢用Amethyst，它装在我的安卓手机上。
And I like and and I have Amethyst on my Android phone.
我甚至不会刻意去想自己正在使用哪个特定客户端。
Like, I don't even think about the fact that I'm using a particular client.
如果某个客户端很烂，或者我用完了订阅源，或者算法不行，我就会跳到Primal用他们的服务。
Like, if one of them just sucks or I've used up the feed or the the algo on this, I'll jump over to Primal and use theirs or something.
如果某个客户端'封禁'了我，我大概只会疑惑为什么应用打不开了。
Like, if one of them quote unquote banned me, I would just be like, why is my app not working?
然后直接换另一个用就是了。
And I would just go to the other one.
没错。
And Yep.
就算Relay封了我，我可能都察觉不到。
If relays banned me, I don't think I would even know.
我根本不会在意自己连的是哪个服务器。
I don't really think about which ones I'm connecting to.
我大概有10或11个客户端吧，有些还是付费的，具体我也记不清了。
I have, like, 10 or 11 or something, and I've paid for some, which I don't even know.
它们应该都还在运行。
They're probably up.
你知道，我主要关注私信。
You know, I just watch my DMs for that.
但如果我被封禁或关闭，我觉得自己可能都不会知道。
But, like, if I got banned or, like, shut down, I really don't think I would know.
就像...就像...如果中继节点没连上...
Like like, I would just like, I I you don't connect to one relay.
你懂的
You know
这几乎不可能发生。
It's what I very unlikely.
而且...那些用户...比如你连了10个中继节点...
And and the people and the people who enter like, let's say you've connected to 10 relays.
现在如果有10个人点赞你的帖子，你的动态也会被转发到他们的中继网络。
Well, now if 10 people have liked your post, your notes also gonna get rebroadcast to their relays.
没错。
Yeah.
很快你的动态就会传播到可能上百个中继节点。
So before you know it, your notes are already on, like, probably hundreds of relays.
根本不可能...这完全不可行。
There's just no way you can get it's just not possible.
其实我们只需要同时连接一个中继节点，或者只要我俩连到同一个中继节点，网络就能互通——因为我们会主动拉取所有相关信息。
And you basically only need one relay in simultaneously or in like, you and I only need to be connected to the same Relay in one of them for us to have our networks connected because we're just locally asking for all of the relevant information.
假设你连15个中继，我连9个，但只要有一个共同节点，只要那个中继不封禁我，你就能通过自己的中继获取我的内容——因为那一个连接会推送所有信息。
So if you're connected to 15 relays and I'm connected to nine, but one relay, because I'm connected to yours, if your relay doesn't ban me and you wanna get my stuff, you just get it from your own relay, you know, because that one connection will just push through all of that information.
事实上与我连接的另外八个节点都屏蔽了我，但我还是不知道，你也不会知道，因为你只需要一个节点就能获取信息，而且在你那边看起来完全一样。
And the fact that the eight other ones that I'm connected to have banned me, still, I I I don't know and you wouldn't know because you just have you just need one to get you the information, and it looks exactly the same on your side.
是的。
Yep.
就是这样。
So yeah.
这基本上就是信任网络中继器的工作原理。
And that's basically exactly what, web of trust relay does.
就像早期我们遭遇严重垃圾信息时，我只有一个中继节点，但这个节点连接了数百个其他中继。
Like, in the early days when we were getting spammed really badly, like, I only had one relay, but that relay connected to hundreds of other relays.
所以我只需要连接到我那个干净无垃圾的中继节点就行。
I So could just go on one my one nice spam free relay.
这是专为我设置的。
It was just for me.
而且一切仍然运行得非常完美。
And it's still everything just worked perfectly.
就像，你知道的，那只是个周末项目，但效果很好。
And it was like, you know, that was a weekend project and like, yeah.
我不知道。
I don't know.
Noster真是太棒了，老兄。
Noster is is so good, man.
我真不敢相信它到现在还没火起来。
I just cannot believe it's not massive by now.
这说不通。
It doesn't make sense.
不。
No.
我认为我认为这是有道理的，而且我认为实际上确实有道理。
I think it I think it makes sense, and I think I think it actually does make sense.
这就是为什么在2000年和2013年时，我会想比特币怎么可能不火？
It's the same reason why in 2000 and, you know, '13, I was like, how is Bitcoin not massive?
当你身处其中时，直觉上会觉得它非常明显合理，但协议必然是在牛市熊市周期中发展的。
Is that it makes so much intuitive or obvious sense when you're in it, but protocols necessarily develop in a bull bear market cycle.
就像，我觉得在我研究互联网历史时看到的每件事，以及我成长过程中见证的一切，熊市是用来建设的时期，而现在感觉有太多东西正在为Noster建设。
Like, I feel like I've seen this in everything I've dug into with the history of the Internet, everything I've just watched growing up, is and bear markets are for building, and I just feel like so much shit is being built for Noster right now.
比如，有太多真正优秀的东西正在简化它。
Like, so much really great stuff that is simplifying it.
有...我们有个...天啊。
There's, we had a oh god.
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