Chat_141 - 奥斯卡·梅里谈《协议优先于平台》

你只需要添加一个点赞按钮，当按钮被点击时发送一个Nosta事件。

All you need to do is add a like button and then sign a Nosta event when that like button is pressed.

如果想显示其他点赞，你只需编写一个Nosta查询，获取点赞数据并渲染用户头像。

And then if you wanna show the other likes, you write one Nosta query and you pull in the likes and you render the profile like avatars.

这就是全部需要做的。

That's all you need to do.

这些可以快速完成，改动轻量且风险较低，不会对应用和用户体验造成重大影响。

And that can be done very quickly, very light touch with lower risk in terms of big changes to the app and the UX.

因此我们认为这些去中心化的播客点赞功能有很大机会被播客行业采纳，因为它能让用户更容易浅尝辄止。

And so that's why we think that these decentralised podcast likes have a really great chance of being adopted by the podcasting industry because it's just a bit easier to dip your toe in the water.

那些成功实现该功能的应用程序，可以继续拓展评论功能，继而开发支付功能。

And then the apps that have success with that, they can move on to things like adding comments, move on to things like adding payments.

但这种轻量级的接触方式，希望能成为更简单的起点。

But, yeah, that light touch is hopefully an easier start.

你和其他应用开发者或播客从业者交流过吗？

Have you been talking to a bunch of other app developer or, like, podcast, like, people?

他们的反应和想法是怎样的？

Like, kinda what's been the reaction in thinking about that?

是的。

Yeah.

当然交流过。

I definitely have.

其他播客应用开发者、托管公司对此类功能的兴趣确实存在。

Other podcast app developers, other hosting companies, The appetite for something like this is definitely there.

实际上我们已经看到像Transistor这样的大型播客托管公司在尝试其他协议，他们甚至允许用户在托管网页上选择性添加蓝空（Blue Sky）评论。

And we've actually seen some podcast hosting companies experiment with other protocols like Transistor, who are a massive podcast hosting company, actually added the ability to optionally add blue sky comments onto your hosting web page.

我认为他们取得了一定成功，但蓝空协议的限制性很强——比如想实现任意播客节目的点赞功能就完全不可能。

And and I think they've had some success with that, but I what I find with the Blue Sky protocol is that it's very limited because, you know, doing things like the ability to like any podcast episode is just not gonna be possible there.

所以大家对这类功能确实很感兴趣。

So, yeah, people are definitely interested in it.

现在中心化的蓝空服务器居然还要用户做KYC认证，真是离谱。

And now the centralized Blue Sky servers are KYC ing people for crying out loud.

这就违背了初衷，老兄。

It's like defeats the purpose, my man.

但是

But

是啊。

Yeah.

不过，我是说，确实有人感兴趣。

But, yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely interest.

关键在于如何找到指引，让你能先浅尝辄止，做些非常简单的事情。

It's just about how can like, where's the guidance to to dip your toe in the water and and do something very simple.

希望等这次新版本上线后——应该下周就能发布——大家就能看到点赞功能。

And hopefully, once this new release goes live, yeah, as I say, should be next week, people will see that liking capability.

我们还会准备些演示，教你怎么查询单集点赞数据，以及实现方法，比如提供示例代码之类的。

And we're also gonna set up some demos in terms of how to query the likes for any episode, you know, how to implement it if you wanted to, like, some sample code.

哦，这很棒啊。

Oh, that's cool.

这可是大事，兄弟。

That's a big deal, man.

示例代码光是存在就很有用，GitHub上有20个资源和1个资源的区别大得惊人——AI能帮你生成代码。

Sample code, even just having it available, like, it's shocking the difference between having 20 things on GitHub versus one thing on GitHub, that you can have AI code something for you.

你可以拼凑出雏形，然后调试修改，遇到报错就调整，特别是简单功能时。

That you can really kind of piece it together and then tweak it or make corrections when you get an error or whatever to put the things together, especially if it's a simple thing.

还是那句话，降低门槛：一个点赞按钮，记录事件，执行查询——这些小事带来的改变超乎想象，我们总是严重低估它。

Again, low barriers, just a like button, just signing an event, and just doing a query, I I just it just makes it makes such a huge difference, and I think we discount it way too much.

是的。

Yeah.

不过，确实，这就是我们的目标——帮助人们轻松入门。

But, yeah, that that's our that's our kind of goal with it is to to help people just get started.

因为对于Fountain来说，显然我们正努力将其打造成最佳的音频聆听体验平台，以及发现优质音频内容的最佳应用。

Because any Fountain, you know, obviously we're trying to make Fountain the best possible listening experience and the best possible app for discovering great audio content.

但更广泛地说，我们不想变成另一个Spotify的翻版，让所有功能仅限于Fountain内部使用。

But more broadly than that, we don't want to turn into, you know, another version of Spotify where things only work in Fountain.

我们想要...是的。

We want to Yeah.

让有价值内容的发现和信号可以来自任何地方，也能在任何地方被消费。

Enable discovery and the signal around valuable content to come from anywhere and be consumed anywhere.

这将极大提升Fountain的体验，因为我们会有更多数据可供利用，比如用于趋势板块等功能。

That's gonna make Fountain a lot better because we're gonna have more data to play with and more data to, use in our, for example, trending sections, things like that.

假设有个非常受欢迎播客应用——或者甚至不是播客应用，而是某个专注于特定话题讨论的网站突然开始关注播客内容。

So if there's like a podcast app that's really heavy or maybe it's not even a podcast app, maybe it's like a topic specific website that just is conversation around a specific topic and got focused on podcasts.

如果我们能在Fountain里利用这些数据，就能让内容发现变得更好。

If we can use that data in Fountain, then it just makes the discovery better.

所以，是的，我们始终在努力吸引更多人参与构建和丰富这个数据集。

So, yeah, really always trying to get more people building and more people contributing to the the dataset.

其实你不需要出售比特币就能获取它的价值。

You don't actually have to sell your Bitcoin to access its value.

你可以非常轻松地用比特币抵押借款，完全无需出售它。

You can actually borrow against it very easily without selling it.

但当你这么做时，需要格外谨慎。

But when you do this, you need to be careful.

你必须选择一家值得信赖的公司合作，这家公司要能经受住熊市考验，并且能明确向你展示他们持有代币的储备证明或其他机制，让你随时查看余额并确保资金安全。

You need to do this with a company that is trusted, one that has survived a bear market, and one that will literally show you that they have the coins, that they have proof of reserves or some mechanism where you can look at your balance and know that it is safe.

这就是为什么多年来我一直是Ledden的忠实粉丝和客户。

This is why I've been a huge fan and a customer of Ledden for a few years now.

几年前我通过比特币抵押贷款完成了家中地下室和工作室的装修，如果当时直接卖掉比特币，现在需要支付三倍数量的比特币才能还清贷款。

So one of the Bitcoin backed loans that I got a few years ago to finish renovations in the basement and studio in my house, I would have paid three times as much Bitcoin had I just sold it as it now takes me to just pay off the loan.

这还是在我出售比特币还款的情况下——实际上我计划通过房屋净值贷款来偿还，这样既能保住贷款又能拿回所有比特币。

And that's if I sell the Bitcoin to pay it off, which I think I'm gonna be able to get equity out of the house and pay off the loan and get all of my Bitcoin back.

这种操作特别适合投资场景。

This especially makes sense if you're making an investment.

如果你从事未来能产生收益的项目，或是投资比特币挖矿，通过比特币抵押贷款来保持比特币持仓，会更容易跑赢利率。

If you're doing something that is going to pay you income in the future, or if you're investing in Bitcoin mining, it's a whole lot easier to beat the interest rate if you loan against the Bitcoin and keep the Bitcoin.

Ledin让这个过程变得异常简单。

Ledin also makes this, like, crazy easy.

比如你现在申请，明天可能就能拿到资金。

Like, if you went to do this right now, you could probably get the money by tomorrow.

他们每年进行两次储备金审计，我都会亲自核查。

They do proof of reserves twice a year, and I check.

整个流程非常便捷。

It's a very easy process.

而且你可以选择不按月还款。

And you don't have to do monthly payments if you don't want to.

你可以先累积利息，然后在合适的时候分批偿还。

You can just accrue the interest and pay off in chunks whenever it makes sense.

最棒的是，他们最近刚刚消除了所有噪音。

And best of all, they just recently got rid of all the noise.

他们还有其他一些功能。

They had some other features.

他们提供以太坊贷款。

They had Ethereum loans.

他们直接说不行，砍掉它。

They're like, nope, chop it.

他们曾有一款收益产品。

They had a yield product.

不行。

Nope.

砍掉它。

Chop it.

他们提供过利率更低的贷款，而且这些贷款不在他们的账面上。

They had loans where you could get a lower interest rate, and they didn't have it on their books.

他们把这些贷款放出去了。

They lent it out.

不行。

Nope.

把这个也砍掉。

Chop that.

现在只提供完全由比特币背书的托管贷款。

Now it's just custodied, fully backed Bitcoin loans.

并非适用于所有情况或每个人，但有时这是一个极其有价值的工具。

Doesn't work for every single situation or every person, but there are some times where this is an incredibly valuable tool to have.

不要过度借贷。

Don't overextend.

记住，比特币价格波动大，请仔细阅读细则。

Remember, Bitcoin is volatile and read the details.

但如果你需要动用比特币价值又不想出售，Ledin是个绝佳工具，我作为满意用户已有两年了。

But if you need access to your Bitcoin's value and you just don't want to sell, Ledin is a brilliant and simple tool for doing exactly that, and I've been a happy customer for a couple of years now.

详情链接就在节目说明里。

You can check out the links right down in the show notes.

网址是ledin.io。

It's l e d n, ledin.io.

你看到这个了吗？

Have you seen this?

最近有些相关帖子。

There's been some posts.

我个人在Nostr的使用体验中没太感受到这种情况，可能因为我接触的用户仍很活跃，但整体数据过去一年基本停滞甚至略有下滑。

I I don't feel this quite in kind of my Nostra experience, and maybe it's just that, like, the people I interact with are still just active, but that the overall stats have been pretty much stagnant and or declining a little bit over the past probably year, I guess.

之前确实有过一个热点爆发期。

And there was that one real hot zone.

实际上有过两段增长期，我很好奇你对此的看法，你对Nostr发展轨迹怎么看？因为从技术架构和理论层面看，整个系统形成了完美的自循环。

Actually, there's been kind of two growth periods, but I'd be curious what your thoughts on that are, how you feel about the trajectory of Nostr, because technically, from a structure and theoretical sense, all of it feeds back on itself so well.

我非常喜欢Fountain的实现方式以及我们之间的互动交流。

I love the implementation and the back and forth that I get with Fountain.

如果能够广泛采用，其潜力将是巨大的。

And the potential is so huge if you had adoption.

但问题在于，你如何跨越那道鸿沟，让反馈机制真正发挥作用？

But the question is, how do you get across that canyon to allow the feedback mechanism to work for it?

那么你对这方面的经验有什么看法？特别是与反馈活动相关的一切？

And so kinda what's your experience about that in in in relation to that and feedback activity, like all of that stuff?

你对目前的状态有什么想法？

What's what's your thoughts on the status there?

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为现实是目前这些应用还不够完善。

I think that the reality is that right now the apps are just not good enough.

它们需要改进。

They need to be better.

比如Fountain需要比现在做得更好。

Like Fountain needs to be a lot better than it currently is.

你知道，我们已经讨论过搜索功能很糟糕的问题。

Know, we've already talked about our search kind of sucked.

我们的Relay存在一些扩展性问题，这意味着有时我们无法获取所有需要的数据，比如索引方面，或者用户会遇到各种问题。

We had some scaling issues with our Relay, which meant that sometimes we weren't getting all of the data that we wanted to in terms of indexing or people were experiencing issues.

长期以来，应用中的新手引导流程有些混乱，比如什么是个人资料、密钥存放在哪里、什么是主密钥等等。

The onboarding was a bit confusing in the app for a long time in terms of what is a profile, where are your keys, like what is master.

所以我必须举手承认，Fountain的表现还不够好，未能达到真正促进Nosta发展所需的标准。

So I would definitely like put my hand up and say Fountain has not been good enough, as good enough as it needs to be to really contribute to the growth of Nosta.

我们为这个1.3版本已经努力了三个月，相信用户试用时会发现设计体验、性能、可用性方面的显著提升，更能感受到Nosta社交功能带来的独特价值。

We've been working on this 1.3 release for about three months now, I really think when people check it out, they'll see a big difference in terms of the design UX, performance, usability, but also the value that the social element of Nosta provides.

实际上我们在剧集页面收到的Nostra用户评论确实提供了很多帮助。

Because really the comments we had, the Nostra comments on the episode page, they were pretty useful.

但信息流的内容时好时坏不太稳定。

But the feed was sometimes useful, sometimes not useful.

新版首页新增了热门板块，内容更有趣也实用得多。

The new home screen that we have has some trending sections and it's a lot more interesting, a lot more useful.

所以我认为目前市面上的应用都还没能做到——提供让人一试难忘的卓越体验。

So I think, yeah, apps just haven't got there yet in terms of delivering an amazing experience that makes you want to try them out and then stick around.

至于主流客户端（我总是用main Gnostic这个词，虽然不确定是否准确），就是那些作为日常主要信息源的应用。

And then for the main I always use the word main Gnostic clients, I don't know if that's the right term, but like the daily driver feed type clients.

我觉得这类应用还有巨大的改进空间。

I also think there's so much improvement that needs to happen there.

一个典型例子就是需要增加内容回溯功能。

A big example for me is some kind of catch up feature.

有意思的是，我记得杰克·多尔西在某期播客里提到过这个——虽然记不清具体哪期了。

And actually it was interesting, I can't remember the episode, but Jack Dorsey was talking on a podcast.

稍后我会找到那段内容发给你。

I'll try and find it and send it to you afterwards.

他当时举了Twitter的例子，当他们首次在信息流推出内容回溯功能时，用户反响极其热烈，这个功能对平台增长帮助很大。

And he was using the example of Twitter where when they first introduced the catch up section on the feed, it was incredibly well received and really helped them in terms of their growth.

我认为Nosta客户需要类似的功能。

And I think Nosta clients need something similar.

没人愿意每天整天刷社交媒体动态。

No one wants to be checking their social media feed all day long every day.

人们不想那样做，尤其是来Nosta的用户，他们想要些不一样的东西。

People don't want to do that and especially people that come to Nosta, they want something that's a bit different.

每个拥有信息流的主要Nostra客户端都应该设置某种'追更'板块，让你能根据上次使用应用的时间，查看这段时间内社交网络里的热门笔记。

Every major Nostra client that has a feed should have some kind of catch up section where you can see trending notes from your network over a period based on when you last used the app.

Primal的热门功能非常出色。

Primal's trending feature is amazing.

我认为这是了解NOSSA过去24小时动态的好方式。

I think it's a great way to see what's been happening on NOSSA in the past twenty four hours.

但如果能有个更个性化的版本，只显示我社交圈内的动态就更好了。

But it would be great to have a more personalised version of that where I can see the stuff just from my network and what's happening there.

所以我建议在主Nossa客户端中加入'追更'功能。

So I think the catch up features in the main Nossa clients.

另外还有我们之前讨论过的互操作性和密钥管理问题。

And then also just the interoperability and the key management that we talked about before.

想尝试更多Nostre应用，但密钥管理问题仍是障碍。

Want to try as many of these Nostre apps out but the key management issue is still a blocker.

所以我对Nostre的现状并不意外。

So I I'm not surprised about where Nostre is today.

实际上我认为它发展得很好。

I actually think it's in a great place.

我认为它已经拥有了一批核心用户。

I think it's got a core user base.

它有足够多的用户和开发者参与其中，我认为Nosta未来前景非常光明。

It's got enough people using it and enough developers building on it that I think that there's gonna be an amazing future for Nosta.

但如果产品不够好、尚未完善，就别指望会有爆发式的增长。

But don't expect growth, like, you know, wild growth if the products are not very good and they're just not there yet.

我觉得如果能改进新手引导流程，优化主要客户端的体验，实现不同客户端间酷炫的互操作性，解决诸如MLS私信这类问题。

You know, I think that if we can improve the onboarding, improve the experience of the main clients, have some cool new cool interoperability between different clients, fix things like DMs with the MLS stuff that's happening.

还有大量工作需要持续推进。

There's just a lot of things to continue to work on.

只有等这些都完善后，才能真正期待普通大众能从Nosta获得实用价值，而不仅仅是技术层面的兴趣。

And only then once all of that has been polished can we really expect an average normal person on the street get value from Nosta more than just the technical interest of it or something like that.

所以我依然非常看好它。

So yeah, I'm still very very bullish on it.

只是必须正视当前的发展现状。

It's just you have to face reality in terms of where things are.

是啊。

Yeah.

对我来说关键分歧在于，人们期待它能像产品那样被快速接纳，就像他们看到的OpenAI。

The the big thing to me is just where I think those conversations are, I guess, misaligned is that it's the expectation that it's going to be adopted like a product, that they think they see OpenAI.

我试着用GPT。

I try to GBT.

在这么短时间内获得这么多用户，Facebook当年也是这么快获得大量用户的。

Got this many users this fast, and Facebook got many this many users this fast.

这就像是，嗯，这不是一个产品。

It's like, well, this is not a product.

Primal是一个产品。

Primal is a product.

Fountain是一个产品。

Fountain is a product.

那些是基于它构建的应用，

Those are apps built on top of it,

但是

but

我完全预期会看到一个协议的采用周期，因为它本质上就是如此。

I fully expect to see the adoption cycle of a protocol because that's what it is.

Nostr是一个协议，正如我们刚刚讨论的，它有如此多的不同用例。

Nostr is a protocol that I mean, as we've just covered in this thing, has so many various use cases.

它不是单一的东西。

It's not one thing.

它不是Twitter的替代品。

It's not a it's not a Twitter replacement.

它是一个后端，可以创建一种不同类型的Twitter，但这种不同类型的Twitter可能尚未存在。

It's a it's a back end that could make a different type of Twitter, but that different type of Twitter might not necessarily exist yet.

而且新Twitter所能实现的所有便利或新功能，可能是推动产品采用周期的关键，很可能在一两年内还不会被开发出来。

And the all of the ease of or or the new thing that the new Twitter can do that might be the thing that gets that product like adoption cycle very likely might not be developed for a year or two.

可能还有其他问题需要先解决，而协议的采用是分阶段进行的。

There might be other problems to solve first, and protocols go in waves.

我也认为你是对的，人们确实非常、非常、非常怀念那种原子化网络的强大力量。

I think you're right too, that it's got a strong people really, really, really miss, I think, how powerful having that atomic network is.

正是这个持续运转的人际网络让我现在没有任何理由离开Nostr。

That network of people that is sustaining like, I have no I have no reason to ever, like, walk away from Nostr right now.

在Nostr上有我可以联系的人，有与我建立连接的比特币爱好者们，他们就在那里。

There are people that I can contact and that I'm connected to and Bitcoiners on Nostr that are just there.

这就是我的社群——拥有足够多人组成的原子化网络，他们围绕一两个关心的话题进行充分交流，你可以随时找到相关人士或朋友。

And so and that's, like, my community, you know, and having that atomic network of enough people there talking coherently enough about one or two topics that they care about that you can go there and find the relevant people or find your friends.

网络的价值在于：你能讨论感兴趣的内容，并找到志同道合的人。

That's the value of a network, is that you can talk about what you're interested in, you could find the people related to that.

这意味着它具有可持续性。

That means that it's sustainable.

所以问题在于：如何将其扩展到其他话题、其他类型的社区、其他应用场景，或是接入RSS订阅和播客等功能。

So the question is, how do you expand that into another topic, into another type of community, into another application use case, or connecting to RSS feeds and liking podcasts and all of that stuff.

接下来就是关于扩展性，以及优化工具来引入下一波流量。

Then it's just about expansion and making the tools work for getting that next getting that next flow in.

所以我完全赞同。

So I I agree.

我依然非常看好它，而且我们还有各种不同的解决方案正在尝试完善这个产品。

I'm still super bullish on it, and we've also got, like, tons of different like, the variety of things trying to solve this product.

我从未像现在这样坚信——我们将通过公钥体系、Nostr协议、配对堆栈等技术，以及Keaton团队等人的工作来解决这个问题。

Just I'm I've never been more bullish on we're going to solve this problem with pubkey, Nostr, the pair stack, and everything that, like, the guys over at Keaton and stuff are doing.

感觉就像...我们一定能找到解决方案。

It's like it's like, we're gonna figure it out.

我们有许多现成的工具，也许这是它们之间某种奇妙的结合，因为你看，Nostr本质上就是在使用RSS。

We have so many tools that just work, and maybe it's some weird marriage of all of them because, you know, Nostr what you're doing with Nostr is using RSS.

要知道，这上面可不止一种协议。

You know, it's not like there's only one protocol on this.

你使用RSS是因为它适合信息流，而使用Nostr则是因为它在社交环境和信任网络互动方面表现出色。

You're using RSS because it works for the feed, and then you're using Nostr because it's a great one for the interaction in the environment for social and web of trust networking and stuff.

谁知道最终会如何融合？但现在有太多像你们这样的人在努力，太多团队在思考这个问题，总会有灵光乍现的时刻。

So who knows what it's actually going to how it's actually going to be married altogether, but I think we're just too many people working on it like you guys, too many different teams thinking about the problem, and something's just gonna click.

这种情况可能会发生十次。

This will probably happen 10 times.

某个突破会带我们进入下一阶段，然后会有新的输入，接着又以不同方式出现另一个突破。

Something's gonna click that gets us to the next stage, and there's gonna be another inflow, then something else will click in a different way.

稳扎稳打。

Slow and steady.

毕竟慢而稳者胜。

It's slow and steady wins the race.

懂吗？

Know?

这就是协议构建的方式，与我了解的所有协议历史都吻合——这大概是我最痴迷的研究领域了。

Like, that's how you build protocols, and that seems to align with everything I know about the history of protocols, which is, like, kind of the thing that I geek out on more than anything else.

说到协议我很好奇，因为你们在Fountain里还开发了另一个协议，这是我在播客领域最大的收获。虽然我讨厌且再也不想更换播客托管平台，但为了私有订阅、替代订阅、付费订阅和闪电网络集成这些功能，我可能会破例。

So I'm curious, speaking of protocols, because you've got another protocol in Fountain that you guys work with a lot, and this is the thing more than anything else that I have won in a podcast, and it's why even though I hate and don't want to change my podcast back in, my host ever again because I don't ever wanna do it ever again, but I might, is a private feed, alternative feeds, paid for feeds, and Lightning integration.

就是直接整合进去那种。

Like like, just straight in.

或者说原生支持，我想这才是准确的术语。

Or natively, I guess, is is the term.

我希望你能帮我解析一下这个。

And I want you to kinda unpack this.

我需要你重新说服我，因为我已经和Johnny聊过一些，他的态度是‘听着，就这样吧’。

I want you to sell me on it again because I've been talking to Johnny about it a little bit, and he's like, listen, okay?

如果你真的想做，我们可以实现，而且我很乐意为用户提供无广告版本，并简化入门流程。

We can do it if you really want to, and I'd love to have an ad free version for people and kinda like an easy way to onboard.

我有AudioNauts——这是节目的粉丝和捐赠者组成的小群体，但我还没有真正扩展它。

I have the AudioNauts, which is the fans of the show and the people who have donated, and we have our own little group, but I've not really expanded it.

我很喜欢我们这个小团队，大家已经相处好几年了，不过如果能发展壮大也不错。

I just like our little crew that have been around for a couple of years, but it would be nice to be like, okay.

如果你付费购买节目的无广告版，不仅能享受无广告内容，还能加入AudioNauts社群——这是个极好的资源，我特别珍惜这些真正懂节目、热衷比特币并关注相关话题的铁杆成员。

If you pay for the ad free version of the show, you get an ad free version of the show, and then also you can come hang out with the AudioNauts because it's a really great resource, and I love having those guys that just really know the show and, like, are diehard Bitcoiners and interested in these topics.

所以请详细说说Fountain托管服务，你们开发的所有小工具，以及在这个基础上再添加一个协议是什么体验？

But so kinda sell me on the the fountain hosting and the all of the little tools that you've guys guys have built and the frustrate like, what's it like putting another protocol in this?

明白吗？

You know?

闪电网络本身就有各种问题。

Lightning has its own problems.

那么在整个过程中，你们遇到的最大难题是什么？

Like, what's the biggest headache you've had in in that whole thing as well?

嗯。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

这里有很多内容。

There's a there's a lot there.

所以我就...嗯，非常乐意在节目中为你进行现场推介，我们看看效果如何。

So I'd I'd I'd just but, yeah, more than happy to give you the the live pitch on air, and we'll we'll see see how it goes.

不过，嗯，先简单介绍一下背景。

But, yeah, just to give a bit of background.

Fountain过去两三年通过一种迂回机制帮助播客主——他们可以在应用中认领自己的节目，从而接收闪电网络支付。

So Fountain has helped podcasters for the past two or three years through a bit of a roundabout mechanism where they would claim their show in the app and that would allow them to receive lightning payments.

但这种方式体验非常割裂，因为作为播客主，你所有操作都是在托管面板完成的。

But this was a very disjointed experience because as a podcaster you know this, you do everything from your hosting dashboard.

那里是你管理一切的地方，查看下载数据、修改节目内容、构思节目方向都在那里。

That's where you manage everything, that's where you view your download analytics, make changes to episodes, and just think about your show.

因此我们意识到，要真正帮助内容创作者获得收入并推广节目，必须在他们日常工作的地方——即托管面板——提供支持。

So we realised that in order to properly help content creators get paid and also drive discovery for their show, we needed to help them in the place where they do the rest of their work, which is the hosting dashboard.

这些年来我们还与RSS Blue的Dovidas密切合作，去年决定合并力量重建他的托管产品。现在Dovidas已加入Fountain，过去6-8个月我们一直在开发这个新托管产品，两个月前已开始试运行。

We also over the years worked very closely with Dovidas from RSS Blue and last year we decided to join forces and rebuild Dovidas' hosting product that he'd worked on within So he has joined Fountain and for the past six to eight months we've been working on this new hosting product which we soft launched it about two months ago now.

Fountain Hosting的目标是提供顶尖的播客托管服务，包含发布节目所需的所有传统功能，比如添加文字稿、章节标记、节目元数据等。

So the goal of Fountain Hosting is to provide a best in class podcast hosting product in terms of all of the traditional features you'd expect from publishing episodes, you know, adding additional features like transcripts, chapters, the metadata around the episode.

同时将Fountain应用的支付功能和社交功能整合到托管面板中。

But to bring the payments functionality of the Fountain app and the social features of the Fountain app into the hosting dashboard.

在Fountain托管面板里，你可以通过传统方式查看下载数据——每期节目的下载量、时间范围统计等等。

So in the Fountain hosting dashboard you can see your download analytics in all of the traditional ways you would around downloads per episode, per time range, things like that.

但除此之外，通过相同的筛选控件，你还能看到收益分析数据。

But alongside that and with the same filter controls you can see revenue analytics.

这样你就能清楚地知道哪期节目带来了最高收益？

So you can see okay, what episode brought in the most revenue?

过去三十天我的收入是多少？

How much am I making over the last thirty days?

谁是我的顶级支持者？

Who are my top supporters?

谁是我的活跃订阅用户？

Who are my active subscribers?

其中部分收益分析涉及我们迄今采用的变现方式，比如价值交换行为——包括打赏、流媒体SATs转账等。

And part of this, the revenue analytics is the monetization methods that we've had up until today, is the value for value, you know, actions like boosting and streaming SATs, zapping.

但作为Fountain托管服务上线的一部分，我们为播主推出了这些高级功能，允许他们创建付费订阅并解锁特定权益。

But as part of the Fountain hosting launch, we have introduced these premium features for podcasters that allow podcasters to create a premium subscription and unlock certain benefits.

这类播客付费会员功能确实存在。

These kind of premium podcast benefit features, they do exist.

它们在Patreon或Memberful等平台上都有提供。

They exist on platforms like Patreon or Memberful.

问题在于要使用这些功能，你必须拥有一个私有RSS源。

The issue is that in order to use them, you need to have a private RSS feed.

通常流程是：购买订阅后获得专属私有RSS源，将其导入应用，就能访问额外内容——无论是番外剧集、抢先观看还是无广告版本，都存在于独立源中。

So what normally happens is you'll purchase the subscription, you'll get a unique private RSS feed and you put that into your app and then you can access whether it's bonus episodes, early access, ad free versions, it's in a separate feed.

这对用户来说操作门槛很高。

This is difficult for people to do.

这个过程充满阻力，由于过于复杂，导致很多人望而却步。

It's full of friction, which stops a lot of people doing it because it's so complicated.

但更重要的是，我们坚信内容发现与社交化发现的力量。

But also, we're massive believers in discovery and social discovery around content.

如果你的核心支持者——那些最热爱你节目的人——通过私人订阅收听，他们就永远不会分享节目链接，因为这些私人订阅的链接无法公开传播。

And if your if your top supporters, the people that love your show the most, are listening on a private feed, then they're never going to share the episode links because you can't share those episode links publicly because they're private feeds.

我们在Fountain托管产品中运用了闪电网络和L402协议，这本质上类似HTTP的'需付费'状态，让播客主能在同一个RSS源里提供付费内容，比如番外集、无广告版、抢先听等。

What we've done with the Fountain hosting product is we have used the Lightning Network and this protocol called L402, which is essentially like a HTTP status of payment required to allow podcasters to offer things like bonus episodes, things like ad free versions, things like early access, all within one RSS feed.

底层实现原理是将特定剧集标记为付费内容。

The way this works under the hood is that there's a special type of episode which is marked as paid.

如果是无广告版本，则使用名为'替代资源'的新RSS标签——这个标签约一年半前由Podcasting 2.0提案提出。

Or if it's an ad free version, there's something called an alternate enclosure, which is a new RSS tag that was proposed by Podcasting two point zero about a year and a half ago.

通过替代资源标签，RSS源可以告知应用：这是常规剧集音频。

And so the alternate enclosure allows the RSS feed to tell the app, here's the regular episode audio.

你可以正常播放它。

You can play it like normal.

但如果应用理解替代资源标签和L402协议，用户就能付费解锁替代版本——比如无广告版或其他特供内容。

But if you understand alternate enclosure and you understand l four zero two, the user can pay for an alternate version, a version without ads or or something else.

最酷的是这套方案虽然能在Fountain应用中使用，但完全开放。

And what's really cool about this is it works in the Fountain app, but it's completely open.

任何播客应用都能集成该功能：读取RSS源，从L402响应获取支付信息，让用户选择购买订阅或单集内容。

So any podcast app could integrate with this, read the RSS feed, load the payment details from the L402 response, and then allow users to either buy the subscription or buy a single episode.

对听众而言，这意味着无需额外加载私人RSS源，直接在应用内订阅节目并成为月付支持者。

And what this looks like for listeners in the app is that instead of having to go and load a private RSS feed, can just subscribe to the show in the app, become a monthly supporter.

我们支持通过Apple Pay、Google Pay进行法币支付，同时也支持比特币闪电网络支付。

We support fiat payments with Apple Pay, Google Pay, but we also support Bitcoin Lightning payments as well.

您可以订阅节目，这样就能获取所有额外内容，无论是无广告版、抢先观看还是特别福利。

You can subscribe to the show and then you can get access to all of that bonus content, whether that's ad free, early access, or, bonus.

最酷的是所有订阅认证都使用了Nosta技术。

And then what's really cool about this is all of the subscription authentication actually uses Nosta.

当您购买订阅或特别节目等内容时，我们使用Nostra认证来管理所有流程。

So when you purchase a subscription or a bonus episode or anything like that, We use Nostra authentication to manage all of that.

这带来两大优势。

That gives two benefits.

第一，在您的托管仪表盘分析中，您可以看到顶级支持者名单和订阅用户，这些资料都关联着Nosta个人主页。

Number one, in your hosting dashboard analytics you can see your top supporters, you can see who's a subscriber, and those profiles are Nosta profiles.

您可以直接点击跳转到他们的主页，在Nosta上关注他们。

So you can just click straight out to them, follow them on Nosta.

但第二点在于，订阅状态是独立于Fountain平台的。

But number two, the subscription state is independent of Fountain.

所以如果您想转移您的订阅

So if you wanted to take your subscription

状态来确认这个是否可扩展，比如，能否把这个功能独立出来？

status to ask if this is extensive, like, can can you take this out?

对，就是这样。

So yeah.

抱歉。

Sorry.

保持

Keep

继续。

going.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

确实。

Exactly.

所以如果你想，比如，你知道的，群组和群聊以及社区功能，这就是Nosta的另一个例子。

So if you wanted to, like, you know, groups and group chats and and community stuff, that's another example of Nosta.

还需要做大量工作。

There needs to be so much more work done.

哦，要知道，工具还不太完善。

Oh, know, the tools aren't really there.

但是，你可以想象，比如Fountain，我们已经做得够多了。

But, like, you could imagine, like, Fountain, we're already doing enough.

我们没有资源去开发像Discord那样的群聊软件。

We don't have the resources to build, like, group chat software like Discord.

是的。

Yeah.

但想象一下另一个团队正在为Nosta构建这个功能。

But imagine another team is building that for Nosta.

加入该群的用户无需任何操作，因为节目订阅基于他们的Nosta个人资料，所以您已能访问成员列表，他们可以直接入群。

Could just a user who's joining that group wouldn't have to do anything because the subscription to your show is based on their Nosta profile, so you would already have access to the list of profiles and they could just join the group.

这就是为何将高级订阅与Nosta绑定能让我们实现这些功能。

So that's why tying the premium subscription in with Nosta allows us to do some of these things.

总之，以上就是关于Fountain托管服务的详细说明。

But anyway, that's a big long explanation of fountain hosting.

关键要点在于：我们让开通高级订阅变得极其简单，可实现无广告版本、额外剧集、抢先观看等功能。

The main thing to take away from it is that we make it incredibly easy to set up a premium subscription and do things like ad free versions, bonus episodes, early access.

我们已支持银行卡支付，因为收到播客反馈称比特币领域外的创作者觉得加密货币门槛太高。

We've enabled via payments with Bankcard because we also got this feedback from podcasters that were not in the bitcoin space or close to it that bitcoin was intimidating.

提供双支付选项后，不了解比特币的用户可以用银行卡、Apple Pay或Google Pay付款。

And by giving them both payment options it allows, you know, people that don't know about Bitcoin to pay with a bank card, with Apple Pay, with Google Pay.

但想用比特币支付的用户同样可以。

But if people wanna pay with Bitcoin, they can.

实际上比特币支付的手续费更低。

And actually the fees are lower with Bitcoin payments.

这对刚起步的播客创作者是个不错的引导——

So it's a nice kind of nudge to podcasters that are just getting started with this to Yeah.

同时也能向听众普及比特币。

You know, introduce that audience to Bitcoin as well.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

但我喜欢这个流程设计，你知道的，费用会更低。

But I like the the flow of, like, you know, there's gonna be cheaper.

某种程度上就是把那东西摆在他们面前。

Kind of putting that in front of them.

就像是，你可以用比特币支付更低的手续费，还能用闪电网络之类的。

It's like, you could use Bitcoin with less fees, and do Lightning, all that stuff.

但在你那边，我一直在和圆桌会议的史蒂夫讨论。

But on your side, I was talking with Steve from the roundtable.

我们一直在持续讨论这个话题，因为我和Mechanic经常使用闪电网络，真的是经常用，尤其是现在有了Nostr之类的技术。

We've been having this ongoing conversation because Mechanic and I use lightning all the time, like all the time, and it especially with Nostr and everything these days.

但史蒂夫开了家酒吧，他有服务员之类的员工，你知道的，就是那些靠小费过活的人，小费在整个流程中占了很大比重。

But Steve owns a bar, and he has, you know, waitresses and everything, like like people who get tips, and tips are a massive part of the entire process.

但说实话，目前没有任何系统是为个体设计的，比如一个调酒师开了发票后还能额外收小费，并且能把小费单独分给那个人。

And literally nothing is built around individual, like a bartender, doing an invoice, and then getting a tip in addition, and having that separated out for that person.

他说这简直是场噩梦，他根本不接受闪电网络。

He said the absolute headache, he literally doesn't accept lightning.

他确实允许人们——这也是我们和比特币团队合作时采取的方式——基本上通过闪电网络开设账户进行购买，或者说用比特币支付，但他不接受发票系统，因为没人围绕那个环境构建生态。

He does let people, and this is something we've done with the Bitcoin crew or whatever, basically get a tab with Lightning that you can buy, or well, with Bitcoin in general, but he doesn't accept an invoice system because nobody's just built around that environment.

他只是不断抱怨那些巨大的麻烦，然后有一半时间系统根本用不了，主要都是兼容性问题导致的。

He just talks about the huge headaches of And then it doesn't work half the time, mostly because of compatibility issues.

就像'我们支持Bolt12协议'或者'我们支持零金额发票'，结果这个钱包根本不识别。

It's like, Oh, we do bolt 12, or We do a you know, zero amount invoice, and this wallet doesn't recognize it.

哦，Bolt协议不识别这个。

Oh, bolt doesn't recognize it.

你懂吧？

You know?

就像这个常量，你接受螺栓12吗？

Just like this constant, do you take bolt 12?

你接受没有通风口、没有细节的螺栓12吗？

Do you take bolt 12 with no vent no details?

你接受螺栓11吗？

Do you take bolt 11?

你接受可重复使用的，你知道的，那个lurl密钥发送吗？

Do you take a reusable, you know, l u r l the key send?

我当时就想，密钥发送到底怎么了？

I was like, just what happened to key send?

我觉得密钥发送现在几乎没人用了。

I feel like key send is, like, hardly ever used anymore.

但这就像是个巨大的麻烦，正因如此，他不接受它。

But, like, just a huge headache, like, and because of that, he doesn't accept it.

所以我很好奇，你们最大的挫折是什么？

So I'm curious, what's been y'all's biggest frustrations?

因为我觉得人们没有为史蒂夫的情况做设计。

Because I feel like people haven't built for Steve's situation.

你们在使用闪电网络时遇到过哪些需要绕过的限制、权衡和问题？

What have y'all had to work around, trade offs, and issues with with Lightning?

在用户体验方面，用户对你们实现方式的具体反应如何？

And experience with, like, users, how have users responded to after you did implement it in the way that you've implemented it?

嗯。

Yeah.

这是个好问题。

It's a great question.

我想，我是说，我们遇到了很多问题。

I think, I mean, we've had a lot of issues.

其中之一就是，你知道的，Keysend。

One of them is, you know, Keysend.

播客2.0标准是建立在Keysend之上的。

The podcasting two point o standard was built on top of Keysend.

嗯。

Mhmm.

支付元数据中的大部分内容，比如这笔支付与哪一集相关，实际上是作为Keysend支付的一部分发送的。

A big part of the payment metadata, things like which episode was this payment related to, was actually sent as part of the Keysend payment.

大约一年前，或者更早之前，我意识到Keysend并没有得到任何钱包的采用，它不会长久存在，而且造成了巨大的用户体验障碍。因为像闪电地址这样的东西，我们不得不告诉用户，抱歉这个闪电地址不支持Keysend，所以它无法作为播客在Fountain上使用。

About a year ago, or actually longer than that, I kind of realised that Keysend is not getting adoption from any wallets it's not going to be around and it causes this incredible UX friction because with something like a lightning address, we would have to say, oh sorry, this lightning address doesn't accept keys and therefore it doesn't work in Fountain as a podcaster.

所以这是个很大的障碍。

So that's been a big hurdle.

幸运的是，我们已经成功——或者说正在努力——在播客2.0社区内从Keysend切换到LNURL 11。

Luckily, we've managed to or we're in the process of switching from Keysend to LNURL 11 within the podcasting two point o community.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是因为如果任何钱包、任何数字银行、任何服务支持闪电网络，它们都会支持Vault 11和闪电地址。

And this is because if any wallet, if any neobank, if any service supports Lightning, they will support Vault 11 and Lightning address.

就像，这已经成为大家默认的基本标准。

Like, that is the standard that that everyone is is kinda like table stakes.

我们正从KeySend转向LNURL，但在支付元数据方面遇到了一些挑战，目前仍在讨论中。

So we're switching from KeySend to LNURL but then we have had challenges around payment metadata and there's still an ongoing discussion there.

是的，这主要是用户体验和易用性的问题。

Yeah, it's just a question of UX and usability.

我认为像Strike这样的应用做得非常出色，构建了一个流畅、用户友好的闪电网络应用。

I think apps like Strike have done an incredible job in terms of building a slick, know, user friendly app that you can use with Lightning.

嗯。

Mhmm.

实际上我们在应用中集成了Stripe，可以一键存款。

And we actually have an integration with Stripe in the app so you can deposit with one click.

就用户体验而言，我认为闪电地址非常合理，普通人也能理解。

I think that in terms of like, UX, I think the lightning address makes a lot of sense and and your average person can understand it.

这就像电子邮件地址，但你可以用它来转账，而且能在多个应用中使用。

Like, This is like an email address, but you use it to send money and you can use it in many apps.

这对人们来说很直观。

That just makes sense to people.

所以对于闪电网络的入门，我建议先获取一个闪电地址。

So I think in terms of onboarding for Lightning, go get yourself a Lightning address.

这对新人来说是个很好的理解方式。

That's a great phrase for new people to understand.

一旦你谷歌搜索'闪电地址钱包'，就会看到很多新手友好的结果。

And it's once you Google lightning address wallet, you will have a lot of beginner friendly results.

而且随着更多新兴银行——比如我在英国，看到有报道说Revolut（这里的一家大银行/新兴银行）即将支持闪电网络。

And also as more neo banks like I'm based in The UK, I've seen some stories that apparently Revolut, which is a big bank here or like Neo Bank, are gonna add support for Lightning.

如果Revolut提供闪电网络地址，那将是重大突破。

If Revolut offer Lightning addresses, then that would be huge.

人们会点击使用它们，这将非常用户友好。

Then people would click for them, it would be user friendly.

所以我认为这是有发展前景的。

So I think there's a path forward for it.

是的。

Yeah.

就用户体验而言，与银行卡相比，我认为闪电网络实际上比法币支付体验更好。

In terms of people using it compared to the bank card, I think the experience is actually better with Lightning than it is with the fiat payments.

你知道的，它更快。

You know, it's faster.

手续费低四倍。

There's four x lower fees.

操作更简单，你可以在一个应用里完成所有操作，因为支付是开放的。

It's just simpler, you can do it all from one app because the payments are open.

所以这绝对是更好的体验。

So it is definitely a better experience.

我认为让人们跨越拥有比特币的第一道门槛总是很困难，因为购买比特币通常需要身份认证。

I think getting people over that first hurdle of having Bitcoin in their wallet is always difficult because in order to buy Bitcoin, you know, you'd normally need to KYC.

所以这是个相当复杂的过程。

So that's quite a difficult process.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为Primor在应用中实现的通过应用内购买来充值钱包的功能简直太天才了。

I think what Primor have done in the app where you can top up your wallet with an in app purchase is absolutely genius.

而且我觉得这确实解决了首次使用闪电网络支付的问题。

And I think that really solves that problem of like initial first Lightning payment.

不过总的来说，虽然存在一些挑战，但我对闪电网络在Fountain上的表现以及我个人使用体验——比如在国际会议上——都非常满意，这比使用当地法币并处理汇率兑换之类的事情要方便得多。

But yeah, generally, you know, there's been challenges but generally I'm really happy with Lightning both for Fountain and also in the times where I've used it, you know, maybe at an international conference, it's a lot easier than using the local fiat currency and managing the exchange and all of that.

你会逐渐对定价和统计数据有感觉。

You start to get a feel for pricing things and stats.

所以总体而言真的很棒。

So yeah, generally it's great.

我觉得Nosto也是一样，主要就是用户体验和入门流程的问题。

I think that same with Nosto, you know, it's just the UX and onboarding issue.

仅此而已。

That's all it is.

能不能有一个统一入口，让人们可以获取闪电地址、下载钱包、无阻力地购买比特币？

Can you have one place that you can send people to get a lightning address, get a wallet, buy Bitcoin without too much friction?

要知道，这个用户体验非常流畅。

You know, the the UX is slick.

所以归根结底就是用户体验和入门流程的问题。

So, yeah, it's just UX and onboarding, really.

没错。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

我真的很伤心KeySend

I'm really sad KeySend

没能流行起来，明明key send那么酷。

didn't stick, because key send was so cool.

我真心觉得那是个绝妙的解决方案，而且它已经近在咫尺了。

I I really thought that was like a great solution, and it was already just around.

比如蒂姆，一个白手起家的强盗，我们常聊这个。

Like, Tim, a bootstrap bandit, and I would talk about it.

他说，老兄，我可是key send的极端拥护者。

He's like, man, I'm a key send maximalist.

一切都该用key send。

Everything should be key send.

没错。

Yeah.

但不知为何就是没火起来。

But it didn't catch for whatever reason.

确实，lnurl或闪电地址这类东西对用户更直观，因为它看起来就像个电子邮箱。

Yeah, the lnurl or the lightning address stuff, it's definitely more intuitive for the user because it just looks like an email address.

你知道，这很清晰，大家都知道怎么操作，毕竟都有这种使用习惯。

You know, it's pretty clear, you know, what, how to interact with it because everybody's got that familiarity.

太棒了。

That's great.

我想实际上是我nostr上的那个。

I think actually the one on my nostr no.

不是。

No.

那不是我的喷泉。

It's not my fountain.

那不是我的喷泉地址。

It's not my fountain address.

我想我现在已经把Primal放里面了。

I think I've got my Primal in there right now.

但是，是的，你知道，这超级简单。

But but, yeah, it's, you know, it's super easy.

我是fountain.fm上的guyswan。

I'm I'm the guyswan@fountain.fm.

我是primal.net上的guyswan之类的。

I'm the guyswan@primal.net or whatever.

对。

Yeah.

同样很酷的是，举个例子，如果你的主钱包是Primal钱包，你知道，那些在primal.net上的人，我们看到很多Primal在引导人们使用Nosta方面做得非常出色，给他们一个钱包，让他们第一次体验闪电网络。

The cool thing about this as well is, like, as an example, if your main wallet is your Primal wallet, you know, the guys who are on that primal.net, and we see a lot Primal are doing an amazing job in terms of onboarding people to Nosta and giving them a wallet and giving them their first experience with Lightning.

假设有人加入了Nosta并拥有一个Primal闪电地址，然后听说了Fountain托管，他们会说，哦，我已经有一个钱包了。

Let's say somebody that joined Nosta and had a Primal Lightning address, then hears about Fountain hosting for example, and then they say, oh, I've already got a wallet.

我已经有一个闪电地址了。

I've already got a Lightning address.

让我补充一下。

Let me just add that.

然后我们会说，哦不，抱歉，这个闪电网络地址不是正确类型的闪电网络地址。

And then we would say, oh no, sorry, this this Lightning address is not the right kind of Lightning address.

它无法使用是因为不支持KeySend功能。

It doesn't work because it doesn't support KeySend.

当所有这些承诺都是开放互通的支付时，这真让人失望。

That's just like that's just such a letdown when the promise of all of this is open interoperable payments.

是的。

Yes.

所以这就是主要问题。

So that's, like, the big issue.

实际上在Fountain托管产品中，你可以使用任何Vault 11闪电网络地址，支付都会自动流转到...什么？

And, actually, in the Fountain hosting product, you can use any Vault 11 Lightning address, and the payments will just all flow through to whatever What?

无论是什么钱包。

Wallet that is.

不知道这个。

Not know that.

所以我其实可以托管。

So I can actually host.

我其实可以获取自己的

I can actually grab my own

对。

Yeah.

我在Bitcoin Audible上使用的内容，可以放到Fountain上给我的主播，就像房子一样。

That I use at Bitcoin Audible, and I can put that in Fountain for my host, like, house.

哦，该死。

Oh, damn.

哦，该死。

Oh, damn.

所有订阅支付和购买无广告版本的费用都会直接流转。

And all of the all of the subscription payments and the purchases of, like, ad free versions will all just flow through.

我们会直接

We'll just go straight

到账。

to it.

狗娘养的。

Son of a bitch.

好吧。

Alright.

我要去和Johnny谈谈。

I'm gonna talk to Johnny.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

我甚至都没意识到这一点。

I didn't even I didn't even realize that.

我原以为只是因为我主要在使用一些小型托管钱包。

I thought it was just like because I've been I've been mostly using, like, little custodial wallets.

我在边缘场景使用它们，然后将其转入我的Start Nine主配置。

I I use them at at the edges or whatever, and then unload them into my my start nine main setup.

有趣的是人们总说'不该用托管钱包'。

What's funny is people always talk about, Oh, shouldn't use custodial.

你又不是赛博朋克。

You're not a cyberpunk.

拜托，老兄。

It's like, Man, come on.

信任模型很合理：小额用托管，中大额自己保管。

The trust model makes perfect sense to have what you consider a small amount in custodial, what you have in the medium to large amount.

当金额变得重要时，就放进Albie hub或Start Nine这类自托管方案，比如Phoenix或Misty Breeze，总之是能自己掌控私钥的。

When it becomes something significant, you put it in your Albie hub or something from Start Nine or whatever, or Phoenix or Misty Breeze, you know, just something that's self hosted where you're holding the keys.

当金额大到不适合热钱包时，就转入冷存储。

And then when it becomes super significant that you don't want it in a hot wallet, you put it in cold storage.

这 literally 就是保护全球大部分财富的模型，通过重构信任关系来最小化风险。

That is literally the model to protecting the bulk of the wealth for the whole world and actually realigning the trust relationship to minimizing the fallout.

现在所有货币都建立在信任基础上，导致任何危机的影响都会持续百年，最终导致社会崩溃。

We have where the foundation of all money is a trusted situation so that the scaling of any damage literally prolongs over a century, and the consequences are literally the destruction of its society.

这就是当前货币体系的致命缺陷——当信任崩塌时，所有人都会被拖下水。

That's how bad our money is right now, is that when the trust problem finally breaks, it takes everybody with it.

这完全颠覆了传统模式：像Fountain或Primal这些需要信任的Zap服务，金额上限也就100美元左右。

It's a total flipping of that on the head, where the degree of things where I have to trust Fountain or Primal or whatever with Zaps and all of that stuff is up $100 or something.

我们并非在摧毁社会，因为根基是区块链上的比特币。

We're not destroying society because the foundation is Bitcoin on chain.

它是数字网络的核掩体。

It's the nuclear bunker of digital networks.

但无论如何，这总能触动我。

But anyway, that always gets me.

就像，伙计，这里必须有个等级体系。

It's like, man, gotta have a hierarchy here.

你得理解这两者之间的关系。

You gotta understand the relationship between those.

即便我有自己的闪电地址，使用他人提供的地址仍很方便。

The convenience of having a Lightning address that somebody else has provided, even when I have my own.

但能跳过那一步直接进入付费或私密订阅，同时又易于访问，这实在太棒了。

But that's really awesome, to be able to skip that step and go right to my own thing with a paid, or a private feed, but that's easily accessible.

另一点是，虽然你没提，但上次节目讨论Fountain时提到的预览功能——让人们知道其他内容存在，可以先预览再打赏。

The other thing, I don't think you mentioned it, but the last time we were talking about Fountain on the show was having the previews and stuff so people can see that that other thing exists, and they can get a little preview of it and then zap it.

这太酷了。

That's so cool.

这真是非常非常巧妙的设计。

That's, like, a really, really neat thing.

我甚至没意识到RSS具有这种通用性，能让你随身携带内容。

I didn't even realize that this was kinda universal to RSS so that you can take it with you.

你可以用我的L402发票或类似方式支付。

You can have, like, my L four zero two invoice or whatever.

比如，用Nostril这个应用，你可以直接点击它。

Like, with with Nostril, you can go punch it.

比如，如果Spotify支持这个功能，他们完全可以在已付费的情况下，直接观看或收听Spotify里的付费内容。

Like, if Spotify ever supported this, they could literally go watch the or listen to the the paid feed in Spotify knowing that it's already paid for.

就是这样

That's just

是啊。

Yeah.

天啊。

God.

再说一次，潜力太大了。

Again, so much potential.

潜力无限。

So much potential.

我们还在做的另一件事——这也是基于备用封装技术——就是增加了对视频版本的支持（目前是测试阶段）。

The other thing we're doing, and this is also built on alternate enclosure, is we've added well, it's in beta, but we've added support for video versions.

所以对于想发布视频的播客主，

So for podcasters that wanna publish video,

你

you

可以直接在fountain里切换到视频版本。

can just instantly switch to the video version in fountain.

但这个功能也通过备用封装技术集成在RSS源里，任何应用都能调用。

But this is also in the RSS feed, in the alternate enclosure, so any app could pull that in.

然后，是的，Nosto认证的l402可以在任何客户端上运行。

And then, yeah, the the Nosto authentication for l four zero two can work in any client.

所以如果你在一个应用里购买了无广告版本，就可以直接在另一个应用里收听。

So if you, you know, purchase the the ad free version in one app, you can just listen to it in another app.

这太酷了。

That's so cool.

我知道你等会儿还有事要处理，所以我尽量长话短说，不过让我们从更宏观的角度来看。

Well, I know we're you actually have somewhere to be here in just a little bit, so I'll go towards wrapping this up, but let's go to a bigger picture thing.

你怎么看待当前形势？我觉得很多人对比特币极度乐观，但也有很多人持否定态度。

How do you feel about where I feel like there's a lot of people who couldn't be more bullish or excited about Bitcoin, then there's a whole bunch of people who are like poo poo.

比如政府介入、ETF等等这些因素。

It's like, the government's involved, and ETFs, and all this stuff.

我一直很好奇，你在这个问题上的框架是什么？如何看待比特币在更广阔领域中的定位以及技术发展方向？

I'm always curious, where where is your framing on that, on on where Bitcoin in the broader space is and kinda the direction of technology?

情况在变糟吗？

Are things getting worse?

情况在变好吗？

Are things getting better?

在Oscar心目中，这会是什么样子？

Is what does this look like in in the mind of Oscar?

这是个很大的问题。

That's a big question.

确实。

It is.

我想我会从两个角度来思考这个问题。

I guess I would I I think about it maybe in two ways.

其一是社会对比特币的整体认知。由于当前价格走势、媒体报道的叙事方式乃至美国政治（众所周知这会影响全球政治），普通民众对比特币的看法已略有改变——尤其是那些从未持有过比特币的人。

One is, like, the broader perception in society of Bitcoin and I feel like because of where the price is and also because of maybe the narrative within the media and even in US politics which we all know affects global politics, The perception of Bitcoin to your average person on the street that doesn't own any has changed a little bit.

某种程度上它已获得合法性认可，即便这使得它更接近传统金融体系，但我认为这是好事，是令人鼓舞的进步。

It has been legitimised in some way and even if that brings it like closer to traditional finance, I do think that's a good thing and that's like an encouraging step forward.

举个实际例子：在英国，认为'这完全是骗局/庞氏骗局'的人比一两年前少多了，这种转变很能说明问题。

In The UK, just to give you a practical example, I think there's less people that are like, this is a total scam, it's a Ponzi scheme, than there were two years ago or one year ago because of that change.

这是其中一方面。

That's one part of it.

另一方面则与我们讨论的内容直接相关——闪电网络和微支付领域的发展。

And then the second part is more directly related to what we've been talking about and everything happening with the Lightning Network, with micropayments.

就像Fountain应用自诞生以来的历程：它始终在尝试实现互联网微支付，不断实验、试错、突破困境。

I feel like, and this has been the story of the Fountain app since its inception, which is trying to make micropayments on the internet work and experimenting and trying different things and struggling through it.

我确实看到了令人惊叹的未来：当每个网民都拥有NPUB和闪电网络地址后，就能自由探索网络——体验新奇事物、通过创作获得报酬，且收款来源不限于自建支付系统，任何应用/客户端都能通过闪电网络无需许可地向你跨境支付。

I do feel like there's a real amazing future for this where as a person on the internet you have your NPUB, you have your Lightning address and then you're kind of good to go on the internet and you can go and explore, you can try out cool things, you can get paid for your work, and you can get paid from not just the payment system that you set up or any payment system, any app, any client that chooses to share that money with you and also any country in the world as well without permission over the Lightning Network.

这实在令人振奋。

So that is incredibly exciting.

三四年前Fountain刚起步时就已经让人热血沸腾。

It was incredibly exciting three-four years ago when Fountain first started.

就像世界上许多重大变革和互联网创新一样，这些都需要时间沉淀。

I think like many things and many big changes in the world and on the internet, these things take time.

今天我们确实讨论了不少关于用户引导和用户体验的问题。

And yeah, we've talked through a bunch of the onboarding and UX issues today.

问题正在解决，只是需要时间。

They're getting solved but it does take time.

但我设想这样一个未来：你在互联网上拥有一个闪电网络地址，能以各种新颖方式收款，一切互通互联，你的个人资料可以接入任何应用。

But I think that future where you have a lightning address on the internet and you can just get paid in cool ways and everything is interoperable, you can bring your profile into any app.

这是个了不起的功能，而且离实现并不遥远。

That's an amazing feature and it's really not that far off.

正如我所说，这需要应用开发者进行完善。

It requires, as I said, polish from the apps.

这需要深入思考用户体验和入门流程，目前还存在阻碍其主流化应用的问题。

It requires deep thinking about UX and onboarding and there are issues that are currently blocking it from mainstream adoption.

但每过六个月，它都在向前推进，变得更容易使用。

But it's moving forward every six months getting easier.

所以我认为，很多人首次接触比特币将会通过这些使用闪电网络的应用。

So yeah, still think that many many people will have their first exposure to Bitcoin through these apps that use Lightning.

无论是Nosta客户端、Fountain，还是Stack和News这类应用。

Whether that's a Nosta client, whether that's Fountain, whether that's Stack and News.

这些体验非常酷炫。

They're really cool experiences.

它们的新颖之处在于融入了金钱元素。

They're new because of the money element to them.

而且我认为这将成为比特币普及的重要部分，尤其当价格高涨时，很多人会觉得'我错过了这个机会'。

And, yeah, I think that's gonna be a big part of Bitcoin's adoption story, especially as with the price high, many people also feel like, oh, I've missed I've missed out on this thing.

我...我其实不属于...不属于能从中受益的那类人群。

I'm I'm not really I'm not really part of the the set of people that can benefit from it.

所以，这就是我关于这个问题的想法。

So, yeah, that's kind of my my ramble on on how I think about it.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

我基本上非常同意。

I I pretty much largely agree.

而且我也认为，总会有一部分人觉得‘我错过了机会’，你知道的，就是价格那方面。

And I also I also think that the thing that will onboard like, there's always gonna be that the set who's like thinks, oh, I missed out and, you know, the price.

很可能会发展到人们觉得‘天啊’的地步。

There will probably get to a point where people think that, like, oh, Jesus.

这东西看起来就是用法定货币计价在不断上涨。

This thing's just kinda, like, going up in fiat terms.

但我认为很多人看到已经上涨的东西就会想‘哦，就这样了’。

But I think for a lot, people just see something that's gone up already, and they think, oh, well, that's that.

就像‘现在我已经错过了，因为那已经是过去的事了’。

Like, now now I missed it because it already happened in the past.

但降低人们赚钱的门槛——我真的不认为...这让我嫂子对Nostr感到兴奋，就像‘互联网上这个奇怪又疯狂的地方我怎么不知道？’

But being able to lower the barrier to to people just earning money, I really don't think, like, and away, this is what got my sister-in-law excited about Nostr, and just like, what is this weird, crazy place on the internet that I didn't know about?

因为我拉她入伙后，发了一些她的设计作品，还说了‘看看我嫂子的东西’。

Because I got her on board, and then I posted some of her design stuff, and I was like, you know, check out, my sister-in-law.

她做得真的很棒。

She does great stuff.

她直接走过来，打了个招呼说'来看看Noster'，还互动了几次。

And she literally over, and she just said, hey, checking out Noster, and she interacted a couple of times.

你知道Noster的人就是这样，对新鲜事物特别兴奋。

And you know how people in Noster are, is they're so stoked to have something new.

她最后收到了大约80美元的Zaps，她简直不敢相信，人们就这样给她打钱。

She ended up getting $80 or something like that in Zaps, which on this thing, she's like, people are just sending me money.

这到底是什么疯狂的地方？

What is what is this crazy place?

我从来...我从来没见过这种事。

I've never I've never witnessed this ever.

这是我见过最疯狂的事情。

This is the craziest thing I've ever seen.

她完全懵了，不停地问我这个问题。

And she was just baffled, and she kept asking me about it.

而且这种体验...关键是它能和你的播客应用等各种东西交互，就像你说的，闪电地址和pub，这完全是个开放标准。

And, that experience to just and the fact that that can interact with your podcast app and your like all of these other things, it's just kind of this open standard for you know, like you said, lightning address and in pub.

天啊，这太重要了。

God, that's so huge.

人们没意识到这类事情存在多少障碍。

And people don't realize how many barriers there are to that type of thing.

光是制作内容然后让人购买或打赏，这个过程就很痛苦。

The difficulty of just doing that, of making content and letting someone purchase and or contribute to you, it's a pain.

简直痛苦得要命。

It's a horrible, horrible pain.

我们拼命制作YouTube视频内容，慢慢积累订阅者，因为我根本没有粉丝。

I've been working our butts off on getting video content and stuff for YouTube and all this stuff, and slowly building up subscriber count because I've got no followers.

YouTube上没人认识我，但在Twitter和Noster上我有很多关注。这些平台都是封闭花园，我在YouTube上根本赚不到钱，你懂吗？

Nobody on YouTube knows me, but I've got tons on Twitter and Noster, and none of these things, these are all walled gardens, they don't I've talk to each made exactly nothing off of YouTube, you know?

我们投入了数百小时，节目是免费的，就像把内容放出去一样。但人们没意识到的是，如果有人能来做个播客或发个视频，被托管后有人观看，就能赚1美元或一千聪、九百聪什么的，这很疯狂。

Hundreds and hundreds of hours we've put into it, it's just, you know, the show's free, you know, it's just like putting it out there, but it's just wild how much people don't realize that if you can have somebody come on to a thing to make a podcast in fountain or to post a video somewhere and have it hosted and people check it out, and to make $1, to make a thousand sats, 900 sats, whatever it is.

看到这样的收入会震撼某些人，他们投入了大量时间精力却一无所获。你不能低估那种兴奋感——从零突破到赚取第一笔900聪或一千聪，看到那些曾感到被排斥或认为不可能的人，现在充满能量想要做点什么。

That would explode some people's brains for the amount of time and energy they've put into doing things that have earned them nothing to to just see that come in, I I think you do could not discount the amount of excitement and, like, feedback loop of dropping those barriers from zero to earning that first 900 sats or a thousand sats and seeing the people who have felt excluded or felt like there's no real possibility to that, who have that energy and that drive to really do something with it.

伙计，这可能是件大事。

Man, that could be that that's a big deal.

正是这种整合说服我可能该转到Fountain平台。

I mean, is this is what's convincing me to probably move to fountain is because of, like, that integration.

我一直在等待，就像你说的那些私密订阅的烦恼——无法分享内容，必须封闭在某个平台上。

I've been waiting just like you talk about the annoyances of private feeds and, like, not being able to you can't share it out, you know, and you have to be closed on this platform, like, whatever it is.

你根本没有选择权。

You don't even really have an option.

它从来就不完美，更别提会有人实现我想要的功能——整合比特币支付。

And it's never been perfect, and the hell if somebody's gonna implement Bitcoin, which is what I wanna do.

我不想要一个不能用比特币支付的私密订阅。

I don't wanna have a private fee that you can't buy with Bitcoin.

懂吗？

You know?

比特币节目到底是什么鬼？

The hell's a Bitcoin show?

向你们致敬。

So shout out to you guys.

每次我回到这个应用或查看新更新时，它都变得更好了。

Every time I come back to the app or for the new updates, it's better.

你们整合了更多让我兴奋的功能。

You've got more things integrated that I'm excited about.

我超爱Nostril这个功能。

I love the Nostril stuff.

这对我来说意义重大。

That's been a big thing for me.

其实这就是我刚才低头看的原因。

In fact, that's why I was looking down earlier.

因为我确实有段时间没查看动态了，所以刚才在喷泉旁刷了一会儿。

Was like, I haven't checked my feed actually in a while, and so I was like, scrolling on a fountain there for a minute.

这真是个绝妙的方式，把所有这些东西串联起来，真正展示它的可能性。

And it's just such a great way to plug all of these things together and really show what's possible with it.