聊天_155 - 我们身在何处，我们来自何方，我们将去向何方：与Ben Kaufman的对话

所以我们做了两套方案。

So what we did, we allowed two options.

其实是三套方案。

Well, three options, actually.

其中第一个是我们所谓的继承密钥，你有一个多重签名设置，或者单密钥设置，在一段时间后，另一个密钥会被激活。

One of them, the first one was what we called an inheritance key, where you have a multi six setup or even a single key setup, where after some time another key is being activated.

比如说，我有一个三分之二的钱包。

So let's say I have a two out of three wallet.

三年后，我朋友或律师持有的那个密钥——不管是谁——就会被激活。

And after three years, a key that my, I don't know, my friend holds or a lawyer holds, whatever, that the key becomes activated.

所以现在不再是三分之二，而是四分之二。

So it's now instead of a two out of three, it's a two out of four.

或者原本是二分之二，现在变成三分之二。

Or instead of being a two out of two, it becomes two out of three.

原本是单密钥，现在变成二分之一，等等。

Instead of a single key, it becomes a one out of two, whatever.

但本质上，它让继承规划变得更加容易。

But basically it just allows for easier inheritance planning.

所以你可以给某人一个密钥，但它尚未激活。

So you can give someone a key, but it's not yet active.

因此他们还无法用它做任何事情。

So they cannot do anything with it yet.

但后来它会激活，他们就可以用它进行某些交易。

But later on it becomes active and they can use it to some transactions.

是的。

Yeah.

我们提供的第二个选项是紧急密钥，它非常相似。

The second option we gave is an emergency key, which is very similar.

不同之处在于，紧急密钥可以独立进行支出。

The difference is that the emergency key was able to spend by itself.

所以，与其说将二出之三变成二出之四，不如说保持正常的二出之三，同时增加一个可以独立支出的额外密钥，无需其他密钥参与。

So instead of being, let's say, instead of converting a two out of three to a two out of four, it would have the two out of three normal, but you'd have an extra key which could spend by itself, you know, without any other key being involved.

这主要用于紧急恢复情况，比如你遭遇了灾难性损失，丢失了三个密钥中的两个，因此无法再进行任何操作，或者你丢失了所有密钥，无法再进行任何签名。

That's more for emergency recoveries where you lost, you know, a catastrophic loss, where you lost two out of your three keys, so you can no longer assign anything, or you lost all of your keys, you can no longer sign anything.

所以这主要是为这类紧急情况设计的。

So that's kind of like for that emergency situations.

然后我们允许的最后一种功能是完全锁定支出。

And then the last thing we allowed was basically full time lock on spending.

也就是说，允许用户设置一个可以接收资金的钱包，但只能在特定日期支出资金，这可能很有用，比如你想送别人一些加密货币，但不希望他们立即花掉。

So just allow the user to set a wallet where they can receive funds, but can only spend them at a specific date, which could be nice, I guess, if you want to do like gift someone coins, but you don't want them to be able to spend them just yet.

你希望他们至少持有一年，之后才能使用类似的方式进行支出。

You want them, okay, you have to hold it for a year at least, and then you can actually spend them with something like that.

但没错，这是一个不错的应用场景。

But yeah, it's a nice use case.

它可能存在一些问题，因为如果你遇到真正的紧急情况，就无法进行支出。

It can have issues because you cannot spend it if you're in a real emergency.

但我认为这是一个不错的应用场景。

But it's a nice use case, I think.

所以，这些就是我们在Keyboard中通过Miniscript实现的三项功能。

So these are the three things that we enabled in Keyboard with Miniscript.

是的。

Yeah.

关于这一点，有趣的是，我觉得Miniscript是一个非常有趣的工具，但我觉得最好的理解方式是：我们会提供重置功能。

One of the interesting things about that is that I felt like Miniscript is such an interesting tool, but it does come with this I think this is the perfect way to think about it is that, like, okay, we're gonna offer to reset things.

我也曾预期，总有一天，密钥层级结构、密钥衰减机制以及备用路径这些概念会形成某种标准，从而变成一种统一的交易类型。

And I also kind of expected that at some point, the whole idea of a key, what's it called, hierarchy, like a key decay setup, and then also an alternative path, they would develop some sort of a standard, and then it would just be one type of transaction.

因为我的想法是：好吧。

Because like, my thinking is like, okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我希望拥有这些工具，能够自由构建我想要的任何结构。

I wanna be able to have these tools and build whatever construction I want.

但从普通用户的角度来看，没人愿意像用Photoshop那样去‘处理’自己的比特币。

But then you think about it from, like, a typical user, like, nobody wants to, you know, nobody wants to Photoshop their Bitcoin.

就像，是啊，没人希望一进来就看到这么一堆工具，然后心想：这玩意儿到底是什么？

Like, yeah, you know, like, nobody wants to come in with this thing that's got all these tools, and you're like, what the hell is this thing?

这东西是怎么运作的？

How does this how does this work?

你知道的。

You know?

这东西到底在哪？我该怎么编辑这个界面？

Like, what is where how do I edit this interface?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我明白了。

I see.

嗯。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我同意。

I agree.

我认为这就是我们试图简化它的原因。

I think that's why we try to simplify it.

仍然有一些使用场景，你希望有更多功能，或者可以有更多内容，当然。

There's still some use case where you want more stuff or you can have a lot more Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们一开始还是努力简化了它。

But we tried to simplify it just to start with.

此外，Memescript 仍然处于非常早期的阶段。

There was also, I mean, Memescript is still very much in the beginning.

现在支持它的钱包稍微多了一点，但当我们刚开始时，我认为我们基本上是第三个。

There are now a bit more wallets that support it, but when we started, I think we were basically the third.

比如，当时是Liana，还有Bitcoin Core，然后是我们，对吧？

Like, it was Liana, there was Bitcoin Core, and then us, right?

还是很少。

Still pretty few.

但它在缓慢而稳定地扩展。

It's slowly but surely expanding.

我越来越多地看到它，这令人兴奋。

I'm seeing it more and more, and exciting

没错。

Exactly.

就是这样。

That it Exactly.

但，是的。

But, yeah.

我很好奇，在使用它的时候，你们有没有用很多硬件钱包或所谓的签名设备进行测试？

I'm curious, in working with that, did you test it out with a bunch of hardware wallets, and, or quote unquote signing devices?

你对这些设备的整体体验如何？

What was your general experience with those?

因为我知道有些设备，比如 PSBT 是一个相当常见的标准，但有些设备的流程仍然很复杂，我可不想向一个非资深比特币用户解释这些，你知道的？

Because I know some of them, like, PSBTs are a pretty common standard, but some of them, the flow is still just like I wouldn't want to have to explain it to somebody that wasn't a serious Bitcoiner, you know?

我很想知道你用的是哪个钱包，因为还有一些钱包我甚至都没用过。

I'm curious what your thoughts about which wallet did you use, because there's still some that I haven't even used.

我还没用过 Spectre。

I still haven't used Spectre.

我前几天刚了解到 Crux，这是一种开源固件，可以把任何小型设备变成一个签名设备，这非常有趣。

I just found out about Crux the other day, the open source firmware that you can turn, like, any little device into one, which is super interesting.

事实上，我一直打算联系他们，邀请他们上节目。

In fact, I've been meaning to hit them up to get them on the show.

但你的体验怎么样呢？

But what's been kinda your experience?

比如，你最喜欢哪个？

Like, what do you like?

总的来说，使用 Bitcoin Keeper 时，你最喜欢哪个钱包？

Let's say with Bitcoin Keeper in general, what's like your favorite wallet to use with it?

嗯，我不确定，因为使用 Edge 钱包确实有一些优缺点。

Well, yeah, I'm not sure because there was, let's say, disadvantages and disadvantages to using Edge Wallet.

对我来说最简单的是 Tap Signer，你只需要轻触一下就行，非常方便，它并不是

Easiest thing that was to use for me was a Tap Signer, which was, you just tap it and that's it, which is a very easy It's not

Tap Signer。

Tap Signer.

用起来超有趣，很舒服。

It's super fun, nice to use.

但它当然没有屏幕，所以安全性较低。

But it's, of course, it doesn't have a screen, so it's less secure.

当然，它让操作更简单了，对吧？

Of course, it makes it easier, right?

你不需要检查任何东西，因为你根本也无法检查。

You don't need to check anything because you can't check anything anyways.

它嘛，我觉得算是居中吧，但用起来挺有趣的。

It's, yeah, it's kind of like in the middle, I would say, but it's fun to use.

所以我喜欢这个。

So I like that.

另外，我觉得持卡器也很棒，因为它有NFC，现在还支持二维码排队，对吧？

Besides, I'd say, yeah, I mean, hold card is also was super nice to you because it has the NFC, it has now the QR with the queue, right?

那些像Ledger或BitBox这样的USB设备就有点麻烦，因为它们没有完整的USB集成。

The ones that are most, that are USB, like Ledger or BitBox, it's a bit harder because didn't have like full USB integration there.

所以我们不得不通过电脑上的配套应用来操作，这在一定程度上让用户体验变差了。

So we had to basically do it with the, like a companion app on your computer, which kind of made the UX a little worse, I would say.

有点笨拙。

Little clunky.

是啊。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

所以我们没有足够的资源为每款钱包都开发这个功能。

So we just didn't have the resources to develop that for every one of the wallets.

但我们确实使用了现有的工具和配套的桌面应用。

But yes, we just did it with existing tools and the companion desktop app.

这还是不错的，对吧？

It was still nice, right?

与基于QR码或NFC的钱包相比，它确实让用户体验变差了一点。

It's a bit it makes the UX a bit worse compared to QR based wallets or NFC based wallets.

是的。

Yeah.

我特别推崇Tap Signer，就是因为它的用户体验。

I swear by the tap signer because of that, like, UX.

事实上，我有九到十个Tap Signer，现在我给新用户入门时，都会送他们一个Tap Signer，因为它实在太简单了。

In fact, I have, like, I have, like, nine or 10 tap signers or something, and I when I'm when I'm, like, onboarding people now, I give them I give them a tap signer because it's just it's just too easy.

而且说实话，它最重要的功能我觉得是把密钥移出手机。

And honestly, it's usually like, it does the most important thing, I think, is it just gets the keys off the phone.

你懂的？

You know?

但我真的很希望，我知道有一个钱包已经非常接近了，或者几乎做到了，如果你能做出一个纯粹就是一张卡片的设备，还能显示一些最简单、最薄的信息，比如像一个小数字时钟屏幕那样。

And but, dude, I would love and I know there's, like, one wallet that is, like, super close or, like, almost, but if you could get one that was literally just a card and you could get it to display, like, to just, like, the the thinnest, simplest, like like, just like a little digital, like the like a like a clock screen.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

嗯。

Yeah.

显示收款地址、金额和交易费用。

To display the address, the amount, and the fee that is being sent Mhmm.

在确认之前，你只需要一个确认或取消按钮，卡片的大小和厚度就像信用卡一样，可能稍微厚一点，那也会非常棒，我觉得。

Before before and you had, like, one yes and no button or whatever, and it was the size and thickness of a credit card, maybe a tiny bit thicker, that would still that would just be like the That would be great, I think.

在我看来。

My in my opinion.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

我完全同意这一点。

Definitely agree on that.

我没见过有人这么做，但这会非常好。

I haven't seen anyone doing that, but that would be really nice.

我觉得这会是极佳的用户体验。

I I think that would be great UX.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

你知道吗，我很好奇。

You know, I'm curious.

我不确定自己是否知道你是怎么以及什么时候接触比特币的。

I'm not sure if I even know how or when you got into Bitcoin.

这个时间点问你如何接触比特币的问题有点晚了。

It's a little late in the show for the how'd you get into Bitcoin question.

但在成为Bitcoin Keeper和写作之前，你做过什么？

But what did you do before Bitcoin Keeper and and the writing?

因为我发现你的文章时，感觉是在很早以前，那时候你还不知道……

Because I I found your writing, I I feel like, pretty pretty early on when you were I don't know.

也许你是怎么、什么时候接触到比特币的？

Maybe maybe how how when when did you get into Bitcoin?

嗯。

Yeah.

我想他写的那些你在这档节目中读到的文章，大概是在2019年，很可能是那会儿。

I think I think he I wrote these articles that you read in the show was probably 2019, most likely.

我大概是2017年开始接触这些的，我觉得是那时候。

And I started getting into things like around 2017, I think it was.

好的。

Okay.

没错，我一开始确实接触了山寨币，因为我是开发者背景，当时大家都劝我去做山寨币，毕竟你可以开发山寨币，对吧？

Yeah, and I started, yeah, of course, I started with shitcoins because that was I came like with developer background and that's what, okay, everyone was trying to convince you to kind of work on shitcoins because, oh, you can develop shitcoins, right?

比特币上不能写智能合约，但山寨币可以。

You can, You cannot write smart contracts on Bitcoin, but you can do it on shitcoins.

你是开发者，那就只该去搞山寨币，对吧？

So you're a developer, you should go to shitcoins only, right?

所以没错，我确实这么干了一阵子。

So yeah, of course I did that for a while.

后来当我更专注于比特币时，才开始写那些文章和相关内容。

Then when I moved more into like Bitcoin focus, then yeah, that's when I started writing those articles and all of that.

但说实话，我是通过朋友了解到比特币的，他说：‘你对比特币有点了解吧？’

But yeah, mean, how it got into it is I just heard from a friend about it, Oh, you know something about Bitcoin.

他想问我一些问题，因为我是个开发者，但我当时对它一无所知。

He wanted to ask me some questions because I was like a developer and then I didn't know anything about it.

于是我产生了兴趣，开始阅读，基本上就是这样入坑的。

So I got curious, started reading, and yeah, that's mostly how I got in.

明白了。

Gotcha.

从那时到现在，你最疯狂的经历是什么？或者你最大的遗憾是什么？

What was your craziest or like, maybe what's your biggest regret actually between then and now?

嗯，除了没买够之外。

Well, besides not buying enough.

对，那不算。

Yeah, that doesn't count.

你不能算那个。

You can't.

每个人都是

Everybody's

对吧？

That's got right?

这是普遍现象。

That's universal.

我的意思是，有一段时间我几乎没做任何与比特币相关的开发。

I mean, there was just a time that I didn't do almost any Bitcoin related development for a while.

这让我有点后悔。

That's like, I regret a bit.

我休息了一段时间。

I kind of took some time off.

我有点后悔，但除此之外，我想也没什么了。

I regret that a bit, but I don't know, not much besides that, I guess.

是的。

Yeah.

你说你最近开始在Synonym工作了，我甚至根本不知道这家公司。

You said you have recently started working at Synonym, which I I literally didn't even know.

你和他们一起做什么呢？

What are you working on with them?

因为这真的太棒了。

Because that's really awesome.

我一直非常关注他们所做的事。

I've been, like, really closely following what they do.

我还在等一些东西能真正吸引我，让我投身其中。

I'm I still am waiting for, like, something to, like, catch and roll with that.

我非常喜欢他们的Bitcoin钱包。

I love their Bickit wallet.

它的设计太

The design of it is so

美感和流畅性

The aesthetic and the flow

Bickit钱包的设计，我不太清楚。

of the Bickit wallet, I don't know.

我只是真的很喜欢它。

I just I really like it.

你刚才说你是在那里工作吗？

You said is that where you're working?

你是说你

Like, you're

是的，我在做，是的，是的。

working Yeah, on the yeah, yeah.

我最近才开始和他们合作，到目前为止我的工作几乎完全集中在Bickett上。

So I've been working with them, like, very recently, and yeah, my focus was almost entirely on Bickett so far.

这非常有趣，我也真的很喜欢做这个钱包。

It's been very fun, and yeah, I really like working on this wallet.

和John一起工作感觉怎么样？

How's it like working with John?

嗯，这并不是一家小公司。

Well, it's not such a small company.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们并不怎么一起工作。

So we don't work that much.

比如，我们并不总是聊天，对吧？

Like, we don't talk all Right?

整天都完全不错。

Day it's completely nice.

一切都挺有趣的。

It's all fun.

而且，我非常喜欢约翰。

And, I like John a lot.

所以约翰是我最喜爱的、非常有主见的比特币支持者之一。

So John is one of my favorite very, very opinionated Bitcoiners.

是的， definitely。

Yeah, definitely.

definitely。

Definitely.

但确实，这很有趣。

But, yeah, it's been fun.

而且，我觉得 Bitkit 非常酷。

And, yeah, I think Bitkit is really cool.

我希望把它推广开来，你知道，它主要专注于闪电网络，而我之前的工作大多集中在链上，没怎么接触过闪电网络。

I hope to bring it, you know, it's mostly Lightning focused, which I haven't worked on for, like, I usually stayed on the on chain side in previous works that I did.

所以我也希望把一些链上的经验带入这个钱包，比如更多高级功能，但当然，现在使用闪电网络也挺不错的。

So I kind of hope to also bring a bit of that into the wallet, so you know, some more advanced But yeah, also working with Lightning now has been pretty nice.

是的。

Yeah.

你对闪电网络怎么看？

What's your take on Lightning?

你如何看待闪电网络当前的成熟度？你目前是如何使用它的？以及基于协议的现状，现在能实现什么样的用户体验？

How do you see Lightning right now in kind of its maturity and how you're working with it, and then also kind of like what UX is deliverable right now with the state of the protocol, so to speak.

所以，再次强调，我之前根本没怎么关注闪电网络，现在才刚开始接触。

So, again, I'm not like they just started because I was not focused on Lightning at all before.

直到最近我才开始做这方面的内容。

I didn't do much of it until very recently.

你经常用它吗？

Do you use it a lot?

但我确实经常使用它，是的。

But I use it quite often, yeah.

嗯，不算多，但只要有合适的机会我就会用。

Well, not a lot, but I do use it from time to time when there's the opportunity.

基本上，只要是想付款，除了特别大的金额，其他时候我都会优先选择闪电网络。

Basically, that you want to pay something that, except maybe very big things, anytime you want to pay is usually with night things.

它已经成为支付的首选方式了。

Like, not really it's it's really the go to for payments.

它确实已成为支付的首选协议。

It it really did become the go to protocol for payments.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

That's totally true.

事实上，我已经很久没想过这个问题了，但如果你用任何商户工具支付，基本上都是用闪电网络。

In fact, I don't even know it's been a really long time since, I almost hadn't even thought about that, but if you're paying with something with any of the merchant tools or whatever, it's lightning, kind of

默认如此。

by default.

当我去的时候

When I went

参加Plan B会议之类的，全部都是用闪电网络。

to plan B conferences or whatever, all of it was just lightning.

没错，没错。

Exactly, exactly.

任何你想支付的东西，现在都只是闪电网络。

And anything

你

that you

现在任何你想支付的东西，都只是闪电网络。

want to pay is just, it's just lightning these days.

很多人要么使用托管型，要么使用非托管型，但始终都是闪电网络。

A lot of people use either, yeah, some use custodial, some use self custodial, but it's all lightning all the time.

它已经成为支付的首选方式。

It just became the go to for payments.

甚至连新的应用，比如Arc、Sparkle，都在集成闪电网络。

Even the new, like, you know, Arc, Sparkle, that is it are integrating with Lightning.

它之所以可行，是因为闪电网络。

And it works because of Lightning.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

因为现在它就是首选。

Because it's just the go to right now.

嗯。

Yeah.

你的主要闪电网络钱包是什么？

What's your what's your main Lightning wallet?

你有最喜欢的托管型和非托管型钱包吗？

Do you have a favorite custodial and favorite non custodial?

嗯，说到最喜欢的非托管型钱包，我得说BitKit，对吧？

Well, favorite non custodial, I'll have to say BitKit, right?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

至于偏好的托管钱包，我会说Speed对我来说非常好用。

A favorite custodial, I would say Speed is very nice to use for me.

等一下，什么？

S- Wait, what?

Speed？

Speed?

Speed钱包。

Speed Wallet.

它支持

It does like

Speed钱包。

Speed Wallet.

Speed Wallet。

Speed Wallet.

它并不那么常见，因为它支持USDC、USDT这类东西。

It's not Yeah, that common in because it does have like USDC, USDT, and that stuff.

而且对于BG来说，它对我来说很好用，所以我一直用它。

Also for BG, it just worked for me, so I stayed with that.

而且我真的喜欢它的用户体验，说实话。

And I really like the UX, honestly.

所以，它是托管型的，但就是好用。

So, I mean, it's custodial, but it just works.

因此，对于小额支付来说，用起来非常方便。

So for small payments, it's very nice to use.

我明白了。

I don't Gotcha.

你不会在那儿存很多钱。

You don't keep a lot of money there.

然后，如果你有五十美元、一百美元这样的金额的话，是的。

Then, yeah, if if you have like, yeah, dollars 50, dollars 100

你提取你的昵称。

You withdraw your nickname.

是的，没错。

It's yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我通常就在这里提现。

I usually just withdraw there.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

老天，总让我感到惊讶的是，那种论点——没有人比在加密领域待了十二年、十五年或更久的人更懂这个道理。

Man, that's something always gets me is this argument that Good God, there's nobody who understands the lesson better than somebody who's been in the space for twelve years, fifteen years, or whatever.

但整个问题在于未能认识到‘不是你的密钥，就不是你的币’这一原则，也应根据我们讨论的币的数量来权衡。

But the whole failing to recognize that not your keys, not your coins should also be weighted by how many coins we're talking about.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

因为我会想，哦，对啊。

Because because I'll be like, oh, yeah.

你完全可以使用，比如 Primal 的内部钱包。

You could totally just use, you know like, Primal has an internal wallet.

对吧？

Right?

或者 Satoshi 的钱包，我偶尔也会向人们推荐。

Or a wallet of Satoshi, and I'll recommend it every once in while to people.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

你根本不是真正的去中心化用户。

You're not a real pick order.

你推荐了这个托管型的东西。

You recommended something in this custodial.

他们说：‘喂，我们说的是4美元而已。’

They're like, bitch, we're talking about $4.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

当然，是有门槛的。

Of course, there's a threshold.

一旦金额达到300美元或更多，变得有意义且你不希望丢失时，你就该提出来。

As soon as this is $300 or something that's meaningful that you don't want to lose, you withdraw it.

懂吗？

Know?

你可以把钱存在链上的比特币里，或者用非托管的闪电网络钱包，但用一个可以随时清空或充值的托管钱包也没什么不对，只要你根据愿意承担的风险来调整金额。

Put it in your you put it in your Bitcoin on chain, or you you have a non custodial Lightning wallet, but there's nothing wrong with using a custodial that you can just empty or refill based on how much you're willing to risk.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，总之，我一直觉得这很荒谬。

And so, anyway, just always thought that was silly.

你知道吗，我经常谈论多重签名、硬件钱包、迷你矿机。

You know, I'm talking about all the time, about multisig, hardware boards, miniscrete.

但如果你只是想用个四五美元，就用个托管钱包吧，你照样没问题。

But if you just want, like, 4 or $5, just just use a custodial one, and you're you're still good.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，现在这很平常，对吧？

I mean, it's normal these days, right?

你不必非得这样，关键是，重要的是你有选择非托管方式的自由。

You don't have to, the thing is, okay, what's important is that you have the option to have it non custodial if you want.

退出的选择。

The option to exit.

没错，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

所以你有退出的选项，也有完全使用非托管方式的选项。

So you have the option to exit and you have the option to even have that completely non custodial.

因此，对于真正需要的人，拥有非托管工具是很重要的，对吧？

So it's important to have the non custodial tools for people that actually need them, right?

比如那些真正遭受审查、面临某些限制的人，对吧？

So someone who's actually being censored that is actually experiencing like censorship or certain limits, right?

为他们拥有这些工具非常重要。

It's important to have these tools for them.

但如果你只是想在Nostr上收点小费，或者进行一些小额日常消费，像普通人的做法那样，用托管方式通常就足够了。

But if you just want to like receive some tips on Nostair or just have some small copy purchases, like normal stuff, that's for most of people, a custodial would be just fine normally.

你知道，你不必非得经历这一切。

You know, you don't have to go through it.

拥有选择很重要，但你不必每次都这么做。

It's important to have the option, but you don't have to do it all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你怎么看待交换媒介与记账单位或价值储存之间的区别？你觉得它们是冲突的，还是相互合作的？

What's your take on the whole difference between the, let's say, conflict or the cooperation, whether whether you think it's one or the other, between the medium of exchange and the store of account or store of value.

价值储存，是的。

Store of yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你对整个比特币领域和比特币的使命怎么看？比如比特币能做什么？它是否因为人们只是用它来储蓄而被稀释了？还是这些用途本质上是不可分割的？

What do you think about kind of where we are in the whole Bitcoin space and Bitcoin's mission, like like, what Bitcoin can do, and is it being diluted because it's like, oh, everybody just use it to save, or are these irrevocably connected to each other?

我只是好奇你的想法。

I'm I'm just curious of your thoughts.

很多人对此有争论。

A lot of people debate it.

我认为它们肯定是相关的。

I think they're definitely connected.

你拥有的货币如果不能很好地保值，那就不是好货币。

Want You money that is not a good store of value.

我们正处在一个非常特殊的人类历史时刻，这种状况才存在。

We're just in a very specific point in human history where that exists.

但这并不是常态，对吧？

But that's not the default, right?

我们必须记住，好吧，过去这一百年左右，这只是人类历史中一个非常短暂的时期，在这个时期，我们恰好出生在货币无法良好保值的环境中，对吧？

We have to remember that, okay, these more or less last hundred years, this is just a very small spot in human history where we just, where all happens to be born in, where money is not a good store of value, right?

因为政府强迫我们接受了这种状况。

Because governments have coerced it upon us.

但以前并不是这样的。

But it wasn't like that before.

这并不是常态。

It's not the normal state of things.

正常情况是，货币是一种良好的价值储存手段，对吧？

The normal state of things is that money is a good store of value, right?

黄金是一种良好的价值储存手段。

Gold was a good store of value.

在其他时代、其他社会中，各种材料也曾是良好的价值储存手段，对吧？

In other occasions, societies, it was a good store of value in various materials, right?

你不需要深入研究货币的历史。

You don't need to get into the history of money.

但重要的是要记住，我们才是例外，我们才是异常——某种事情出了差错，需要被纠正，对吧？

But the important thing to remember is that we are the exception, we are the anomaly, where something went kind of wrong and has to be fixed, right?

我们并不是常态，就像比特币是一个新理念，哦，我们现在有了既是良好交换媒介又是良好价值储存手段的货币。

We're not the common thing, like Bitcoin is this new idea, Oh, we have money which is both good medium of exchange and a good store of value.

这是一种自然形成的东西，因为这是市场更偏好的货币。

It's something that naturally comes together because this is the money that the market would prefer.

就是这样。

That's just So

我认为比特币是一种良好的价值储存手段，这一点非常重要。

I think it's very important that Bitcoin is a good store value.

这是它最终也能成为良好货币和良好交易媒介的基础。

That is like the foundations for it for also being a good money and being a good medium of exchange eventually.

作为交易媒介，你实际上必须能够进行交换，对吧？

Medium of exchange, you need actually be able to exchange it, right?

所以这时候闪电网络就派上用场了，某些扩容方案很重要。

So this is where Lightning comes handy, certain scaling solutions are important.

但关键是，它们并不矛盾。

But yeah, the important thing is that they're not contradictory.

它们是相辅相成的。

They come along together.

是的。

Yeah.

我通常也有同样的感觉，因为有很多人一直强调比特币必须被用作交换媒介。

Generally felt the same thing because, like, there's a whole lot of people who, like, kind of, like, harp on the like, Bitcoin has to be used as a medium of exchange.

而我有一部分认为它会被实现。

And there's part of me or it's gonna be captured.

但我另一部分更希望我们这样看待它，特别是因为我认为，要让比特币成为交换媒介，需要很大的压力和大量人的关注来构建相应的工具。

And there's part of me that like, I prefer for that to be the way we think about it, specifically because I think, you know, it needs a lot of pressure and needs a lot of people caring about it to build the tools for it to be that.

但我也不认为这种说法完全准确。

But I also don't think it's totally accurate.

这就像一类事情，我觉得作为推动事物朝着正确方向发展的实用建议是不错的，但如果你拥有人们渴望的东西，除非每个人都想要它，否则你不可能让每个人都接受它作为支付方式。

It's it's like one of those things that, like, I I think is decent practical advice for pushing things in the right direction, but that if you have in if you have something that people desire like, you're not going to get everybody to accept something as payment unless everybody already wants it.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的？

You know?

没错。

Exactly.

你得先做好价值储存。

Like, you you kind of have to do store of value first.

但问题是，我仍然希望每个人都去开发所有工具，让比特币成为支付手段，因为当我们达到那个阶段时，我不想再等两年才让所有人去开发这些工具。

But the thing is is, like, I still want everybody building all the tools to have it as a medium of exchange because when we get to that point, I don't wanna have to wait two years for everybody to then build the tools to get to that point.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

嗯。

Mhmm.

但没错。

But but yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

关键是，比特币之所以成为支付手段，是因为人们真的需要它。

The thing is Bitcoin just becomes medium of exchange because people actually want it.

是的。

Yeah.

正如你所说，确实如此。

As you say, it's Exactly.

我的意思是，我猜你更喜欢用比特币支付。

I mean, you you prefer I assume you prefer to get paid in Bitcoin.

我 definitely 更喜欢用比特币支付。

I definitely prefer to get paid in Bitcoin.

对吧？

Right?

所以。

So

哦，当然，如果有人不用比特币付我，我会收他们费用。

Oh yeah, I charge people a fee if they don't pay me in Bitcoin.

没错。

Exactly.

所以这已经是一种交换媒介了，对吧？

So this is already medium of exchange, right?

我的意思是，很多人，包括我和你，都更倾向于用比特币支付，也更愿意用比特币进行交易。

I mean, a lot of people, me, you and a lot of other people prefer to be paid in Bitcoin, prefer to make to to pay or make payments in Bitcoin.

不得不卖出比特币很痛苦，尤其是当你确信它未来会更有价值时。

Having to sell Bitcoin hurts, especially when you are certain it is gonna be worth more in the future.

但你可以通过比特币抵押贷款获得法币资金，而无需卖出比特币。

But you can actually get access to the fiat without selling it by using a Bitcoin backed loan.

也许这是为了应急。

Maybe this is for an emergency.

也许这是为了一个你认为会表现非常好的投资，但它不会超越比特币，因为比特币在增值。

Maybe this is for an investment that you think will do really well, but it won't beat Bitcoin because it's monetizing.

或者这是一笔你确信最终会收回的款项，只是时机不对，你不想在这段时间内放弃比特币。

Or this is actually something that you know you'll get back, but the timing just isn't right, and you don't wanna let Bitcoin go for that span.

这就是为什么Letin被创建了。

This is why Letin was built.

他们让你能够快速简便地以比特币作为抵押借款，而比特币是最终极的抵押品。

They let you borrow against your Bitcoin quickly and easily, and Bitcoin is the ultimate collateral.

在这个体系中，没有比这更完美的东西了，而且你可以通过他们的储备证明来验证这一点。

There is no more perfect thing to use securely in this setup and something that you can verify with their proof of reserves that they do.

如果你不想，就没有任何月供。

There are no monthly payments if you don't want.

你可以按照自己的节奏还款。

You pay it off at your pace.

提前还款没有任何罚金。

There's no penalties for early payment.

没有任何中介费。

There's no finder's fee.

获取资金快速又简单。

It is quick and simple to get your funds.

我觉得他们现在的处理时间大约是十二个小时。

I think their turnaround right now is, like, twelve hours.

我不明白为什么每一家比特币公司都不这么做，尤其是那些至少为他人持有比特币的公司，但他们通过链上储备证明让你确认你的余额是真实存在的。

And I don't know why every Bitcoin company doesn't do this, everybody who's at least holding Bitcoin for other people, but they do a proof of reserves so that you can confirm that your balance is there.

最近让我非常高兴的一件事是，他们刚刚降低了以太坊贷款的利率。

And something that made me really happy recently is they just cut their Ethereum loans.

他们下调了收益产品。

They cut their yield product.

他们降低了非托管贷款的利率，现在只提供一种简单而专注的服务。

They cut their noncustodied loans at lower rates, and so they now offer one simple hyper focused thing.

托管式、安全、便捷的比特币抵押贷款。

Custodied, secure, easy, Bitcoin backed loans.

选择一家有良好信誉的公司，他们已提供超过100亿美金的贷款，服务覆盖100多个国家。

Use someone with a good track record who's done over 10,000,000,000 in loans available in over a 100 countries.

他们提供储备证明，并且在市场最艰难的时期也未曾出现任何问题。

They do proof of reserves, and they've made it through the toughest times in the market without having a single problem.

无需信用审核。

There's no credit check.

没有任何麻烦。

There's no hassle.

很简单。

It's simple.

这就是ledin.io存在的原因。

This is why ledin.io exists.

在不卖出比特币的情况下获得其价值。

Get the value of your Bitcoin without having to sell it.

记得了解抵押品的工作原理。

Remember to read up on how the collateral works.

他们非常擅长主动沟通，确保一切保持平衡。

They're really good at reaching out and making sure that everything stays balanced.

记住比特币是波动的，因此不要过度借贷。

Remember that Bitcoin is volatile, so do not overextend.

但如果你懂得如何使用它，这可能会为你的比特币资产带来巨大好处，并让你在不必须出售比特币的情况下获得法币流动性。

But if you know how to use it, this could be a huge benefit to your Bitcoin stack and give you optionality in accessing fiat without it being that selling Bitcoin is your only option.

我一直是位非常满意的客户。

I've been a very happy customer.

去了解一下吧。

Check them out.

链接和详细信息都在描述中。

The link and details are in the description.

A，你有什么看法？

A, what's your thoughts?

但另一方面，B，你真的用过Square的商户推广吗？

But then, b, have you actually gone to a merchant with the Square rollout

没有。

and No.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

像那样？

Like that?

不。

No.

你没有。

You haven't.

我的意思是，我不在

I'm I mean, I'm not in

美国，所以哦，对了。

The US, so it's an Oh, that's right.

这仅限美国。

That's US only.

是的。

Yeah.

你在哪里？

Where are you based out of?

我到处都在。

I'm I'm everywhere.

经常旅行。

Traveling a lot.

所以

So

到处都是。

All over the place.

明白了。

Gotcha.

差不多吧。

Pretty much.

是的。

Yeah.

我忘了现在推出的地区可能仅限美国。

Forgot the rollout is, I think, US only right now.

当然，他们的大多数商户都在美国。

Of course, most of their merchants are US.

Square 现在也进入了像几个

Square is now in there in, like, a couple of

不同的国家。

different countries.

我觉得主要是在美国。

I think mostly The US.

我不确定。

I'm not sure.

我知道他们主要在美国，但我觉得也在英国。

I know they're mostly in The US, but then also I think UK.

我不确定还在其他哪些地方。

Not sure where else actually.

是的，除了美国，不太常见到它。

Yeah, outside of The US, it's not common to see it.

所以，是的。

So, yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我和史蒂夫去了罗利的比特币聚会。

I went to the Raleigh Bitcoin meetup with Steve.

他经营酒吧，买了两杯啤酒，效果出奇的好，简直太棒了。

He does the the bar and bought two beers and was pretty sto I mean, worked like a charm.

你知道吗？

You know?

它运作得非常好。

It worked really well.

不过，我对他那天晚上遇到的一个问题印象深刻，当时我们正在举办一个Hold'l Up游戏之夜。

I pretty impressed with it, though that he did actually have a problem with somebody who came in that night for we were doing a Hold'l Up game night.

我不确定你是否知道Hold'l Up这个游戏。

I'm not sure if you know the Hold'l Up game.

这玩意儿太好玩了。

That shit is so much fun.

不。

No.

我不确定。

I'm not sure.

但我觉得不是。

But don't think so.

如果你还没试过，一定要去试试。

You should definitely check that out if you haven't.

这是一款非常有趣的游戏。

It's a really fun game.

但有个人进来，用Strike付款了。

But somebody came in, and they paid with strike.

所以是Strike转到Square。

And so it's strike to Square.

他们在Strike这边，系统显示交易已通过，但Square却装作没收到。

And they on the strike side, it said it went through, and then Square just acted like they didn't receive it.

所以当时就想，操。

So it was like, well, shit.

他们说，杰斯，赶紧上线，我们遇到大问题了。

It's like, they're like, Jess roll out, and we got, like, a big problem.

他们问，我们该怎么办？

They're like, what do we what do we do?

我们是不是只能给他们来瓶啤酒，然后认栽？

Do we know, I guess we just give them a beer and just, like, take the loss.

你知道的。

You know?

但我用的是非托管方式，一切都很顺利。

But I did it from a noncustodial, and it all it all worked fine.

但谁知道那些情况会怎样呢？

But, you know, who knows with some of it?

但肯定会经历很多阵痛，因为确实如此。

But there's gonna be a lot of growing pains because Yeah.

正如史蒂夫所说，像男人一样，我喜欢，我喜欢。

As Steve said, like, men's I love he's like, I I like it.

你知道的？

You know?

我想接受闪电网络和比特币这些东西，但会有很多错误。

I I wanna accept Lightning and Bitcoin and all that stuff, but there are a lot of errors.

有很多支付错误。

There are a lot of payment errors.

这确实很难。

It's it's hard in the for sure.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

回过头来看，假设我们回到2019年。

Looking back, let's say let's go back to 2019.

已经六年了。

It's been six years.

对吧？

Right?

从宏观角度来看，过去六年里发生的最大变化是什么？是你完全没预料到的？

What has happened in the last six years from a big picture perspective that's the biggest thing that you didn't see that coming?

不一定是比特币，因为我要告诉你的其实是，我以为比特币在这个时候作为政治领域的一个角色会更大。

Not even necessarily Bitcoin because I'll tell you mine actually is I thought Bitcoin would be bigger by this point as as kind of like a player in the political realm.

我的意思是，它确实是，但我只是觉得它会

I mean, it is, but I just thought it would be a

从市场角度来看大得多。

lot bigger from a from a market standpoint.

是的。

Yeah.

但人工智能是我完全没有预料到的。

But AI is the thing that, like, I didn't even see.

这正是我正要说的。

That's definitely what I was about to say.

详细说说。

Expand on that.

详细说说，因为这也是我的看法。

Expand on that, because that's definitely mine too.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，正如你所说，我也觉得比特币会更大，但它确实已经变得相当大了。

Of course, we can we can as you said, they I also thought it would be like, Bitcoin would be bigger, but it's still it got quite big.

我觉得现在有点不同的是，整个社区变得分散了。

I thought that the like, one thing that is a bit different now is how the community got kind of, like spread over.

有这么多的人参与，所以整个格局发生了巨大变化。

Like you have so many people, so the dynamics changed so much.

但我认为迄今为止最重要的事情是人工智能如今的发展。

But I think the biggest thing by far is how AI is coming now.

我对这个领域并不专业。

So I'm no expert on that.

关于这个话题，我一开始完全持怀疑态度。

On this subject, I was completely skeptical at the beginning.

我的意思是，六年前根本没人谈论意大利，所以这甚至都不是一个话题，对吧？

I mean, and six years ago nobody even talked about Italy, so it wasn't even a subject, right?

是的。

Yeah.

直到大概捷克共和国出现并开始取得进展。

Until like, probably until Czech Republic came out and kind of started making grounds.

这根本不是一个人们会认真讨论或思考的话题，你知道，谁会想到它会以这种方式发展呢？

It was just not a subject people would really discuss or think about even, you know, who would thought that it was coming this way, right?

然后，是的，我的意思是，过去两三年，它开始真正迅猛发展。

Then, yeah, I mean, last, what, last two or three years, it started really, really growing.

大概是过去三年吧，我觉得，对吧？

Like last three years, I think, right?

开始真正快速发展。

Started really growing.

现在，我的意思是，当它开始……你知道的，我看到了第一批成果。

Now, I mean, when it started to like, you know, I saw the first results.

好吧，所以我特别关注了我所从事的领域，对吧？

Okay, so I especially focused on the field that I work on, right?

编程。

Programming.

我看到过AI写代码，三年前、两年前。

I saw like AI code, like, three years ago, two years ago.

那简直是垃圾。

It was shit.

糟糕透了。

It was terrible.

它

It

太糟糕了。

was so bad.

你不可能选它。

You couldn't choose that.

我对它了解不多，所以我想，这肯定没什么用，对我的工作不会有任何帮助。

I didn't know much about it, so I said, okay, there's no way this is gonna do much, this is not gonna do anything for my job.

对吧？

Right?

但现在，我一直在使用AI。

But right now, I'm using AI all the time.

我现在一直在用它来工作。

Right now, I'm using it to work all the time.

对吧？

Right?

太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

我很难想象没有AI该怎么工作。

Like it's hard for me to imagine not working without AI.

它带来的生产力提升太惊人了，简直非同寻常。

It's the productivity boost it's that it gives you insane, it's something else.

所以，这完全出乎我的意料，真的在改变一切。

So I mean, this caught me completely by surprise, and it it's really changing things.

对吧？

Right?

它真的在改变一切。

It's really changing everything.

是啊。

Yeah.

老兄，最近几周我一直在疯狂地用AI写代码。

Dude, I have been on a vibe coding rampage the last few weeks.

事实上，就在昨晚，我刚完成了一个项目，这段时间我一直在开发一些单任务脚本。

In fact, just last night, I finished so I've been building just kinda like single single task scripts, basically.

比如，每当我需要整理某个文件夹时。

So, like, anytime I'm just like, I need to organize this folder.

我就想，好吧。

Like, I'm just like, okay.

我该怎么写个脚本来完成这个任务呢？

How do I how do I make a script to do this?

于是我逐一整理并合并了这些脚本。

And I went through and consolidated.

我之前做过几次播客订阅的备份，但每次用的工具都不一样，所以文件命名和编号方式都很混乱。

I've done, like, a couple of, like, random backups of the podcast feed, but they're all Every single time I've used a different tool, and so they're named differently or numbered in a weird way.

于是我花时间写了几个小脚本来处理几件事情。

So I went through and I built a handful of little scripts to do a couple things.

其中一个

One of

其中之一是，

them was to,

A，从头到尾下载并统一所有播客片段的文件命名。

A, download and then normalize the naming on all of the podcast episodes from start to finish.

将它们全部转换为WAV格式，然后运行Whisper模型进行全文转录，并将内容切分成十到三十秒的片段，确保每个片段在语义上相关。

To go through and convert them all to a WAV format, then to go through and run a whisper model to transcribe the entire thing and then chunk it out into ten to thirty second pieces that are all kind of contextually relevant.

每个片段都代表一个具体的想法。我用了两个小模型，显然是Whisper。

Each thing is a specific thought, And I used two little models for that, obviously, Whisper.

但另一个是？

But then I used what is it?

Gnomic？

Gnomic?

我想是Gnomic 1.5，那个更小的模型，但它仍然有大约150兆字节大小，用于对我的整个播客转录数据库进行向量嵌入，并构建一个简单的单次查询系统。

I think it's Gnomic, the 1.5, the the smaller model, but it's it's still, like, a 150 megabytes or something like that, to do vector embeddings for the entire database of my transcription of my entire podcast, and then build a simple little, like, one shot.

我为它搭建了一个简单的网页界面。

One shot, I built a little web interface for it.

现在，我可以直接根据上下文搜索我整个节目历史中的任何内容。

And now I can just, like, contextually search for anything in the entire history of my show.

我特别测试了几件事，比如：好吧。

And I specifically was like, I I test started testing it on a couple things where I was like, okay.

我怎么知道这确实是良好的语义搜索呢？

How can I know that this is like good semantic search?

于是我搜索了‘隐私’这个词，结果它竟然返回了我根本没说过‘隐私’这个词的片段。

So I I searched privacy in one of the episodes, and it literally brought out sections in which I did not say the word privacy at all.

所以这根本不是关键词搜索。

So it's no no keyword search.

但其中一段，我正在描述什么是CoinJoin交易。

But one of them, I was describing what a CoinJoin transaction was.

另一段，我只是举了个例子，比如：好吧。

One of them, was literally just giving an example of like, okay.

所以本签一个，然后我妻子签一个，接着我再签一个，最后我们把它们合并，链上就只有一个签名。

So Ben signs one, and then my wife signs one, and then I sign one, and then we put it together, it's like one signature on chain.