#342：哎呀！全是前戏

大家好，欢迎收听第342期桌游狂轰滥炸播客。我是马克，也被称为绿色坦克，一如既往地与我搭档的还有被称为橙色坦克的尼伦。你好。以及被称为红色坦克的凯伦。

Hello, and welcome to episode 342 of the board game barrage podcasts. My name is Mark. I am also known as the green tank, and I'm joined as always by, also known as the orange tank, Nielen. Hello. And also known as the red tank, Kellen.

凯伦，过去两期节目你的音频一直有问题。现在都解决了吗？

Kellen, you've been having audio issues for the past two episodes. Do we have those straightened out?

哦，是的。是的。我这边完全没问题。我是科林。大家好。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're all good over here. This is Colin. Hello.

好的。终于搞定了。在今天的节目中，我们将讨论那些让人意犹未尽的游戏，保证让你们听完后还想听更多。这些游戏可能有些吸引人的亮点或特色，能牢牢抓住你，让你对下一次游戏充满期待。稍后我们会更深入探讨。

Okay. Finally. On today's episode, we are going to be leaving you wanting more as we talk about games that leave you wanting more. So these are games that have maybe a hook or something about them that really grab you and leave you excited for that next play. We'll dive into that a little more later.

但在那之前，我们会先聊聊最近玩过的游戏。凯伦要谈谈《无懈可击》，接着我会讲《埃塞尔布鲁克特》，最后尼伦会带我们进入《命运》

But before we do that, we'll be talking about the games we've played. Kellen is gonna be talking about no loose ends. I'll follow that up with Esselbrucket. And finally, Nielen will bring us to the fate

的篇章。你刚才说《埃塞尔布鲁克特》。

of the fellowship. Esselbrucket, you say.

我猜大家都玩过《埃塞尔布鲁克特》吧。我为自己这么晚才接触这款游戏感到惭愧，但没错，就是《埃塞尔布鲁克特》。凯伦，给我们讲讲《无懈可击》。

Everybody's played Esselbrucket, I assume. I feel bad that I'm so late to the game, but, yes, Esselbrucket. Kellen, tell us about No Loose Ends.

《无懈可击》是一款日本骗局游戏。惊喜吧。等等。

No Loose Ends is a Japanese trick taking game. Surprise. Wait a minute.

好的。《无懈可击》是新泽泰树最新的骗局游戏。马克，你熟悉他的游戏吗？

Okay. No Loose Ends is the latest trick taking game from Taiki Shinzawa. Mark, are you familiar with his game?

我没听说过《无禅》。

I have not heard of No Zens.

但你熟悉新泽武尊的游戏吧？

But you're familiar with Takis Shinzawa's game?

我熟悉他的游戏吗？作为一个实体，作为一个人，或许吧。你能提醒我他有什么作品吗？哦

Am I familiar with his game? Oh, as a as a entity, as a person. Maybe. Can you remind me what they have Oh

天啊。知道有趣的是什么吗？我觉得凯伦

my god. You know what's funny? I think Kellen has

说过不，

said No,

但是尼伦，你熟悉新泽武尊的游戏吗？这周至少搞混了三次。尼伦，别告诉别人我提前准备了笑话。尼伦。到第三次时就顺溜了。

but, Neelen, are you familiar with Takis Shinzawa's game? To confusion at least three times this week. Nielen, don't tell people that I prepped the jokes. Nielen. By the third time, it's smooth.

大家都很喜欢。

People love it.

新泽武尊的游戏包括《面具人》《圣诞幽灵》《九条命》《大帐篷》《美国书店》《符咒》《闪烁星舰》《五张牌》。这个人对我来说就是日本吃墩游戏的化身。是的。嗯。

Taiki Shinzawa's game includes Mask Men, Ghost of Christmas, Nine Lives, Big Top, American Bookshop, Charms, Twinkle Starship, Fives. This man is Japanese trick taking in many ways for me. Personified. Yes. Mhmm.

这就是他的游戏或者说他的作品集。随你怎么称呼都行。如果没听懂，这是个笑话。《无懈可击》据说是去年某款游戏的重制版，我不太理解，但事实如此。这应该是寄给我们的评测副本。

And that is his game or his games. Whichever you prefer, both work. That's the joke if you didn't get it. No Loose Ends, I believe, is a redo of a game that came out last year, which I don't understand, but here we are. I believe this was a review copy sent to us.

这是新泽武尊设计的一款非常直白的游戏，带有犯罪主题还挺有趣。每轮开始前你要竞猜自己能赢多少墩。但每次出价只是一张牌。比如马克可能出价三张牌，伊隆可能出价两张。然后你需要赢得的墩里，获胜的牌必须能通过花色或数字覆盖你的出价。

This is a very straightforward game from Taiki Shinzawa, where you are it's like crime themed, which is kinda fun. And you are bidding before the round begins on how many tricks you believe that you will win. But each bid is just a card. So Mark, you might bid three cards, and Elon might bid two cards. But then what you need to do is you need to win a trick that the card that won the trick can cover up one of those bids by either color or number.

具体来说，如果你用数字2的牌出价，就必须用数字2的牌或同花色的牌赢墩来覆盖。如果出价三张牌，就需要赢三墩才能获得完美犯罪奖励分数。最后根据未覆盖的出价扣分。游戏还有种孤注一掷的玩法叫告密者——你可以不断加注然后撤回所有牌背叛所有人，这种玩法会重创其他玩家，让他们的未覆盖出价更糟糕。

As in if you bid with a two card, you have to win a trick with a two or win a trick with the color of that two that you bid in order to cover that up. And if you bid three cards, you would then need to win three tricks in order to have no loose ends which would give you the perfect crime bonus and you would score more points. And so then you lose points based on how many loose ends there are. But then there is the way to sort of shoot the moon, which is called becoming a snitch, which is like you can bid and bid and bid and then pull back all your cards, double cross everyone. And then you're basically trying to shoot the moon which actually hurts other players and makes their loose ends even worse.

但除此之外，它玩起来就像一款必玩的吃墩游戏，蓝色永远是王牌花色。绝对非常棒。可以说这是最出色的——不是那种‘哦，有点意思’的程度，而是‘哇，这真是款超棒的吃墩游戏’。尼尔伦，你和我们一起玩过这个。

But otherwise, it plays like a must follow trick taking game where blue is always the trump suit. Absolutely very good. Like, would say that this is the most very good it's not like a, oh, that's interesting. It's like a, oh, that's very good trick taking game. Nielen, you played this with us.

尼尔伦，你会怎么形容这款游戏？

How would you describe this one, Nielen?

是的，我非常喜欢。我觉得很有趣，因为玩的时候我们有点争论——我们是否喜欢需要提前声明叫分的游戏？我单方面认为是的。

Yeah. I I liked it a lot. I I think that that was funny because as we were playing it, there was a little bit of debate about, do we like games? We have to declare bids up front or not. And I would say unilaterally, yes.

这类游戏是我最爱的吃墩类型。我喜欢那种压力和紧张感，必须提前评估手牌——平时我很少这么专注，但被迫思考‘这轮开始时我到底能用这手牌做什么’真的让我一开始就投入其中。而这款游戏通过具体规则放大了这种紧张感，因为叫分不单纯是数字。

Those are my favorite trick taking games. I love the pressure and the tension of trying to do that upfront hand evaluation, which I'm not usually very good at playing close attention to otherwise. Or when I'm forced to be like, oh, what can I actually do with this hand right at the start of the round that really gets me engaged at the outset? And like this ratchets up the tension on that so specifically because of the specificity. It's not just a number of bids.

更像是：如果我打出这张牌，既要把它移出手牌，还得想办法用剩下的牌赢得符合叫分的墩数。这种解谜般的玩法我觉得很有趣，也正是我倾向的吃墩游戏类型。老实说其他规则很简单，就是标准吃墩玩法加了一个巧妙的小转折。

It's like, okay. If I put this card out, I'm both removing it from my hand, and I need to find a way to win a trick with what's left in my hand that that matches that. So that it's quite puzzly in in a way that I thought quite fun, and I think that those are the trick takers I tend to gravitate towards. And, honestly, the rest of it is fairly simple. It's that pretty standard trick taking other than that, like, one little good twist.

所以，是的，我非常喜欢。

So, yeah, I liked it quite a lot.

没错。我认为这款游戏更适合喜欢解谜和分析的玩家，而不是我这种凭直觉行事的。而且玩家叫分越多，公开信息就越多——大概五分之一的牌会直接摊在桌上，卡牌计算和提前规划的空间非常大。

Yeah. I do think it is a trick taker for more puzzly, more analytical thinkers than I who goes by gusto and feeling. And and because the more you bid, the more that players bid, the more open information there is. Right? Like, just half the cards are out on not half, but a fifth of the cards are just out on the board and you know that so your ability to card count is huge and your ability to forward plan is big.

另一个有趣的点是每轮长度由最高叫分者决定。如果有人叫了五墩，这会影响手牌数量——因为玩家会持有不同数量的牌，甚至可能打不完所有牌，因为一旦有人没牌回合就结束。整体而言这完全不像是噱头之作，感觉像是‘值得保留的五款吃墩游戏之一’。

The other thing that's interesting is that the length of each round is determined by whoever bids the most. So if someone is just an idiot and bids five tricks, you know, that's gonna change the amount of hands there are because people will have a different amount of cards. So you won't even get to play all of your cards because the round ends as soon as any player runs out of cards. In terms of just like like, this is not does not feel like a gimmicky one at all. This just feels like, oh, this might be one of the five trick takers you should keep.

总的来说...哇，确实非常出色。非常出色。

I think in general, I Wow. Yeah. It's very good. It's very good.

这可是极高的评价——我正想问呢。听起来你们真的很喜欢，但考虑到市面上吃墩游戏的数量，它真的能脱颖而出吗？你说它可能属于顶尖中的顶尖，这个推荐分量十足。

That's high that's very high praise because I was about to I was just about to ask. It sounds like you really like it, but given the quantity of tricksters out there, does it hold up? And for you to say it might be in that upper upper upper top echelon is is quite a recommendation.

这非常好。我正陷入一种收集危机。首先我根本没有收藏，但不知为何这个就留下来了。一个人到底需要多少款吃墩游戏？

It's very good. I'm kind of in a collection crisis. Well, I don't have a collection first of all, but I don't know. This one is staying. How many trick takers does one man need?

我想答案是我们多年前就超过那个数量了。但你知道，总有人提醒我——虽然我不觉得自己是疯狂桌游宅，可别忘了我是桌游播客主。于是就这样了。

I think the answer is we've passed that many years ago. But you know, it's always like, I don't think that I'm the crazy board game nerd, but then people have to remind me that I have a board game podcast. And here we are.

让我印象深刻的是...这个词用得对吗？它有种扎实可靠的气质，就像个朴实能干的吃墩游戏。没有花哨的机制，就是稳扎稳打。懂我意思吗？可能需要点耐心理解。

I think something that strikes me about it, and I don't I don't am I using the right word here? It's got it's got a very, like, workman, workhorse vibe where it's like, this is just a good solid trick taker. You know? It doesn't have a crazy twist that's gonna be like, oh, this is a little bit weird. Bear with me.

没错。就是纯粹的好。优质又扎实。

Yes. It's just good. It's good and solid.

对。特别是那些需要竞标的，比如尼科骰，还有我的最爱《巫师》。那种不是所有人都能完成叫牌的紧张感...

Yep. Yeah. And I think the ones where you have to make your bid, you know, like, Nikosu, dice, or even, you know, my absolute favorite is, like, wizard. Right? Like, it's just that tension of, like, not everyone's gonna make it.

之前和莫妮克、纳温玩的时候——顺便提下名字，咱们现在可是名人了——临近回合结束，他们看着纳温说'凯伦你不该出那张牌，因为尼伦手里肯定有红桃大牌，他叫牌时出过小红桃'。

And then even so we played this with let's just name drop. Right? We're we're famous here. Monique and Naveen before you play. And I realized, like, near the end of the round, they were looking at Naveen was like, oh, you shouldn't have played that card, Kellen, because it's clear Nielen has a high red because he had a low red out in his bid.

我当时就想：这推理怎么来的？然后意识到在场都是比我聪明的人，在《无路可逃》里碾压我。这游戏不是靠感觉，得做蚂蚁搬家式分析。所以还是交给尼伦、纳温和莫妮克吧。

And I was like, the how did we think of this? And I'm like, oh wait, these are all smarter people than me beating me at no loose ends. It's not a vibes based game, you know, it's actually do the ant analysis. So we'll leave that to, Nielen, Naveen and Monique.

我有点惊讶尼伦说这是款朴实无华的工人级游戏，毕竟它还有那么丰富的犯罪叙事背景...

I'm just a little surprised that Nielen referred to this as like a workman like game and without having any gimmicks given the rich crime narrative that is

融入了游戏机制。在当今经济环境下，这就是普通人写照啊。不偷没法吃，不吃活不成。

woven into the play. In today's economy, that's the average man. Right? Gotta steal to eat, gotta eat to live.

没错。我全程都在角色扮演：'谁敢告密试试'。懂吧？在这游戏里我绝不当那个叛徒。

Yeah. I I'm over here role playing being like, no one better snitch. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not gonna be the in this game. You know what I mean?

这些人啊，就在那儿想得比我多，而我在跑。实际上，我记得是莫妮卡把我们打败了。游戏结束时我的分数比开始还少。是啊，那也挺让人清醒的。

And these people Yeah. Just over here out thinking me and I'm running Actually, I think Monique destroyed us, if I recall correctly. And I think I ended the game with less points than I started the game with. So Yeah. That was also humbling.

这太疯狂了。我总是被现实教育，但对我毫无影响。就像，呃，理所当然一样。

It's it's crazy. I I just get humbled, you know, but then it has no effect on me. Like a duh.

是啊，但这就是你想要的境界。没错，这就是理想状态。

Yeah. That's where you wanna be though. Yeah. That's where you wanna be.

对，这就跟生活一样。对吧？就是这样。

Yeah. That's just like that's just like living. Right? That's that's right.

没错。在我看来这就是最佳状态。

Right. That's sweet spot as far as I'm concerned.

正是。这就是Taiki Shinzawa。大家都该熟悉他的游戏，尤其是这款《No Loose Sense》。

Yeah. Exactly. That is Taiki Shinzawa. Everyone should be familiar with his game and this game, No Loose Sense.

就像我之前说的，我可能是世界上最后一个玩《Esslebrucket》的人，但终于还是玩了。这款游戏，众所周知，是由——

So as I said earlier, I feel like I'm the last person in the world to do so, but I finally got around to playing Esslebrucket. The game, as we all know, designed by

我们都知道什么？你...你怎么...

What do we all know? What do you what how do you

怎么拼来着？我得先过了这关才能复述大家都知道的事。让我先说完，我们再讨论。显然这是Stephan Dora设计的，他还设计了《For Sale》《Medina》和Kelvin最爱的《Intrigue》等游戏。另一位设计师Ralf Zorlinde则创作了《Finca》和《Animals on Board》等作品，游戏显然是在2011年由Schmidt Spiele出版的。

spell this? I I I have to get past this to rehash everything everybody already knows. So let me just get get through this, and then we can talk. So this is obviously designed by Stephan Dora, the designer of For Sale, Medina, and Intrigue, one of Kelvin's favorites among other games. And Ralf Zorlinde, designer of Finca and Animals on Board among other games as well, back in obviously 2011 and published by Schmidt Spiele.

再次感叹自己居然这么久才玩。当然，众所周知，Esselbrooke在德语里的意思是...

Again, can't believe it took me so long to play this. Now, of course, as we all know, Esselbrooke is German for, say

跟我一起说，驴桥喇叭。驴桥。

it with me, donkey bridge Horn. Donkey bridge.

驴子对。驴桥，当然是指那些帮助你记忆的助记手段，对吧？

Donkey Yeah. Donkey bridge, which is, of course, say it with me, a reference to mnemonic devices that you might use to remember things. Right?

显然。

Obviously.

你们最喜欢的助记法是什么？对我来说，我会用‘我非常有教养的母亲刚刚给我们端来了九块馅饼’来记忆...对，行星的顺序。那是我最喜欢的。

What are your guys' favorite mnemonic devices? For me, I'm gonna go with my very educated mother just served us nine pies to remember Yeah. The planets. Yeah. That was my favorite.

虽然，我

Although, I

猜我小时候用的是土豆。

guess It was it was potatoes when I grew up.

哦，九...九个土豆？哦。

Oh, nine nine potatoes? Oh.

对。

Yeah.

好吧。而且我觉得随着冥王星被...

Okay. And I think with Pluto being

我正想说现在已经不是土豆了。

I was gonna say Not not potatoes anymore.

就像是玉米片给我们上了玉米片。

It's like nachos served us nachos.

你是

You're

对的。但对我来说没那么有吸引力。凯伦，你生活中有没有什么大的记忆法？

right. Which doesn't have the same flare to me. Kellen, any big mnemonic devices in your life?

合唱团那些算吗？可能不算。滑过一张

Does, like, the choir ones count? It probably doesn't. Slid a sheet

脚的纸。我在脚的座位上滑行。我坐着。

of feet. I slid upon the seat of feet. I sit.

哦，不。那不算。那是嘴部动作。和记忆法不一样。

Oh, no. That that's just That doesn't count. Working? That's mouthwork. That's different than mnemonics.

完全是两码事。

It's a whole difference.

但他们就是爱这么干，伙计。

But they try to do that, man.

你提醒我了，我以前知道一些音乐音阶的记忆法，但现在一个都想不起来了。

You just reminded me, there were some I used to know for like scales in music, but I can't remember any of them. There are now anyway.

不。有

No. Have

其中一些。

a few of these.

其实还好。我没事。好吧，这也不算数，但我右手有一条连贯的线。明白吗？真的。

Actually Okay. I okay. So well, this doesn't count either, but there's an unbroken line in my right hand. Okay? Literally Yeah.

从头到尾，只有一条线。

All the way through, there's one line.

是啊。卡兰现在正展示这只手。

Yeah. Callan is now showing this as hand.

然后在我左手上，有同样的线，但在中间断开了

And then in my left hand, there's this the same line, but it breaks in

中间。

the middle.

哦。这就是我如何区分左右的。别人没有这个。这其实不正常。有意思。

Oh. And this is how I know right from left. People don't don't have this. This is actually abnormal. Interesting.

就像一条直线然后断了。总之，这是看手相的吗？

Like one straight line and then that line breaks. Anyway, Is that Palm reader?

我打赌如果你去找那边的看手相的，他们会兴奋得不得了。

I bet if you go to Palm reader there, they have an orgasm or something.

哦，什么？不好意思？

Oh, what? Excuse me?

你们知道我怎么区分左右吗？虽然现在可能已经不用了，但很长一段时间当我搞混时，我会这样做——不知道你们有没有这样过。尼尔兰肯定有，就是当你宣誓效忠时，把右手放在心脏位置。

You know what I do to remember right or left? I think maybe I I might be past this by now but for a long time when I got confused, I would do the and this is I don't know if you guys did this. I certainly, Nieland did, but like when you do the pledge of allegiance and you put your right hand over your heart

是啊。

Yeah.

我就是这样记住哪边是右手的。

That's how I remember which arm was the

哦，你随时都能进入宣誓效忠状态，太美国了。这就是你记住右手的办法？美国？

Oh, like you can just go into the pledge of allegiance at any point, like you're so American. That's you remember your right. America?

哇，好吧。

Yeah. Wow. Okay.

我想把这个作为片尾彩蛋，放宣誓效忠那段。

I wanna put this at the as a bumper at the end, the pledge of allegiance.

好啊。

Yeah.

我觉得总有用得上的时候。

I think there's a time for it.

没错，免得有人不清楚你的立场。

Yeah. Just in case anyone's unclear about where you stand.

对对对。话说我试着理解为什么德语里用'驴桥'作为记忆辅助，好像是说驴子固执地不肯在没有桥的地方过河之类的。反正这个说法不出所料在翻译过程中丢失了，至少对我来说是这样。

That's right. That's right. Anyhow, I tried understanding why donkey bridge is a German mnemonic device, something about donkeys being stubborn about crossing water without a bridge or something. I don't know. But it was something unsurprisingly lost in translation, at least for me.

显然，我刚才是在开玩笑。我们都在调侃终于要讨论这个游戏了。在玩之前我从未听说过Esselbrucket，敢说我们大多数听众，尤其是英语听众，也从未耳闻。这是因为《Essel Bruchet》从未以原版形式正式发行过英文版。

Now, I've obviously been joking. We're all joking here about finally getting around to this. I'd never heard of Esselbrucket before playing it, and I dare say most of our listeners, especially our English speaking ones, have also never heard of it. And that's because Essel Bruchet never got an official English release, at least in its original form.

更多 你正在

More Are you on a

Stephen Dora的粉丝？你之前不是吧？最近才迷上的？

Stephen Dora kick? Didn't you No. Before recently?

也许吧，谁知道呢？我只是随性而为。但Essil Brooker到底是什么？

Maybe I did. I don't know. Who knows? I I just go where the the vibes take me. But what even is Essil Brooker?

我听到你们在问。好吧，这是个记忆叙事游戏。通常听到这个描述十有八九我会失去兴趣，所以如果你想快进我完全理解——但请稍等片刻，让我试着说服你。可能不成功，但总得试试。

I hear you asking. Well, it is a memory storytelling game. Now, nine times out of 10, you would have lost me with that description. So if you're about to fast forward, I get it, but hold on for just one second and let me try to convince you. Might not work, but let me just give it a shot.

游戏规则是每人分到若干叠牌。首轮每叠三张，之后递增，到第四五轮时每叠五张。这些牌面都有图案，可能是鸡蛋、汽车之类，你需要用手中所有牌编个难忘的故事。比如你有鸡蛋、汽车和盒子，就得编个包含这些元素的故事。

So the way it works is everyone gets dealt stacks of piles. I think the first round you have three in a stack and it increases until you have like stack of five for rounds four and five. Anyway, these tiles all depict an image. It could be an egg or a car or whatever, and you need to make up a memorable story involving all of your tiles. So, you know, you've got an egg, a car, and a box or whatever.

你要尽可能编出令人印象深刻的故事，并展示对应卡牌帮助大家建立联想。讲完故事后轮到下个人用他们的三张牌继续。但第三轮规则会有变化。

You gotta come up with the most memorable story you can and tell it to the group involving those tiles. So you tell your story, you show everyone the tiles as you're telling the story to try to, like, have them associate it mentally with the story. And once you finish telling the story, you're done. The next person uses their three tiles to tell a story and you keep going around. Now, in the third round, something changes.

在用四张牌讲完新故事后，你需要将首轮用过的三张牌重新分发给所有人。此时已进行三轮叙事，你要回顾最初讲的故事，把相关卡牌分给所有玩家。大家根据手中卡牌回忆原始故事及其关联图案——比如我拿到鸡蛋，可能想起女巫开车去沼泽找蛋的故事。

So in addition to telling your latest story, now with four tiles, after you do that, you are going to redistribute the three tiles you use for that first round to everybody. So three rounds have now passed of everybody telling stories. You go back to the story you told in the very first round, and you pass out the tiles to everybody in the in the game. Now, everybody looks at their tiles that they've got in hand, and based on that tile, tries to remember what the story was and any of the other tiles that were involved in telling the story. If you get it right, so, like, I might get past an egg, and I'm like, oh, okay.

那么这是原故事吗？如果是，对应图案是女巫还是汽车？

There was a story about the witch who was driving around to the swamp and she was looking for this egg that I have in my hand. Now, was that the story? And if that was the story, what was the image? Was it a witch? Was it the car?

总之你不仅要回忆故事内容，还要记住讲述时用了哪些卡牌和关键词。

Whatever. So you're you're trying to remember not only the story, but, like, what tiles were used in telling that story, what keywords were used.

但这是根据你讲的故事还是别人讲的故事

But this is from the story that you told or the story that

不，不。是玩家讲的？是另一个玩家讲的。

No. No. Player told? That another player told.

所以你...好的。当它轮回到

So you Okay. When it gets back

第三轮时，你要用四张新图块讲一个新故事，然后回到第一轮你讲的故事并分发图块。明白了吗？接着每个人依次尝试回忆那个故事中自己手里没有的一张图块。猜对的话，持有该图块的人就把它交给猜对者，得一分。猜错则会失去若干图块。

to you in the third round, you're gonna tell a new story with, again, four tiles, but then you're gonna go back to the first round story that you told and pass out the tiles. Got it. And then each person in turn is going to try to remember one tile that that was in that story that they don't currently have in their hand. If they get it right, then whoever is currently holding the tile gives it to them, that's a point. If they get it wrong, you lose some number of tiles.

这是个惩罚性很强的游戏，猜错时失去的图块数量相当多。七轮结束后获胜分数可能只有9分左右，相当残酷。如果所有人都猜中了故事里的所有图块，讲故事者还能获得奖励。所以你要尽量讲令人印象深刻的故事——当大家猜中你故事里的所有图块时，你就能获得额外奖励。

And this is quite a punishing game where, like, the amount of tiles you lose for getting things wrong is, like, a lot. And so this is a game where, like, the winning score in the end of seven rounds can be, like, nine points. So it's it's pretty brutal. The storyteller also gets a bonus if everybody guesses all the tiles from a story. So that's why you're encouraged to tell a very memorable story because you get a a bonus if everybody guesses all the tiles involved in your story.

这就是《埃塞尔布鲁克》的基本玩法。必须承认，虽然我不讨厌派对游戏里的记忆要素（比如本作），但我本身并不热衷记忆类游戏。我更不喜欢讲故事类游戏——如果你极度厌恶这两种机制，那你很可能/或许会讨厌《埃塞尔布鲁克》，不过也未必。我这么说是因为玩起来真的非常有趣。当我们掌握诀窍后，听着大家为了让别人记住故事而编得越来越离谱的情节，实在令人捧腹。

And that's basically Esselbrook. Now, have to admit that I again, I'm not a big fan of memory games, although I don't really mind them too much when they're a component in a party game like I think this is. I'm even less of a fan of storytelling games, and if you absolutely hate both of those mechanisms, then maybe slash probably you'll hate Estelle Brookie, I'm not sure, but maybe you won't. I say that because I had a really really great time with it. Once we understood how it kinda worked, it was funny hearing stories get more and more outlandish as we try to make sure people would remember them.

毫不意外，这游戏非常吃玩家群体。即便如此，它作为派对游戏可能也并非百分百适合所有场合或所有人——我觉得它缺乏家庭游戏的普适性。但对于想玩些带桌游机制的无厘头游戏的硬核玩家而言，这简直是完美的派对游戏。我超乎预期地爱上了它，非常期待在桌游展这类场合再次体验。

And so this is going to be very, maybe unsurprisingly, group dependent. I think that this is a game that, even saying that, probably doesn't work a 100% as a party game that you would want to break out with anyone or that anyone wanna play. It doesn't have that like family appeal, don't think. But I think it's a pretty perfect party game for hobby gamers who want to play a silly game that does have some of that hobby board game structure, if that makes sense. I, again, absolutely loved it way more than I thought, and it's a type of game that I'd be very excited to try out at a convention or something like that.

需要说明的是，本作曾以《驴桥》（英文版）和《疯狂说书人》（韩文版）之名重印过。我之前从不知道《埃塞尔布鲁克》，更别说这两个版本。查阅后发现它们对计分规则做了重大调整，削弱了原版的残酷性。

Now, I should say that this has been re released a couple times, once as Donkey Bridge and once as a Crazy Storyteller. Those are an English and a Korean edition respectively, I believe. Now I had never again heard of Esselbrook. I'd much less heard of these two games. I looked them up and there are pretty significant changes to the game where I think they've sort of standed off some of the brutality, the scoring.

新版节奏更快，可能更适合家庭游玩——毕竟体验更温和。但我必须说，我完全被《埃塞尔布鲁克》原版迷住了，所以推荐玩原版。再次强调这很挑人：残酷的计分机制看似与游戏风格不搭，却反而增添了整体荒诞感。

They made it much quicker. I think those games are maybe more approachable in terms of playing with with family because again, I think they're a little bit of softer experiences. But I have to say that I am pretty smitten with Esselbrucken, and so that is the the version that I would recommend playing. Again, very group dependent. The brutality of the scoring is sort of incongruent with the rest of the game, but also adds to the silliness of the entire thing.

总之，如果你喜欢派对游戏中带点讲故事和记忆要素、且比普通派对游戏更有深度的作品，我强烈推荐试试《埃塞尔布鲁克》。虽然只有德文版，但由于全靠图画传达，基本没有语言障碍。不懂德语也完全能玩。

So, yeah, I I really I would recommend if you're into at all storytelling and memorization in a party game that feels like a little bit more than a party game, I would I would recommend checking out Esselbrucken. Again, that version only came out in German but because all it is is like pictures, it is pretty much language independent. So you can definitely get a copy of Esselbrucken and play it even if you don't know the German language. So yes, that

是

is

由Schmidt Spiel出版，Stefan Dora和Ralf Zorlinde设计的Esselbrucken。

Esselbrucken by Schmidt Spiel and designed by Stefan Dora and Ralf Zorlinde.

它有没有《Time's Up》那种感觉？就是那种你需要努力回忆内容的游戏？

Does it have Time's Up vibes at all? Like, where you're trying to remember stuff

有，但不太一样。

Yeah. Differently.

这个比喻很贴切。

That's a good analogy.

显然不是完全一样，但确实有那种感觉。最搞笑的部分就是当你回忆故事时，翻到某个板块突然想起来：‘天啊我记得毒药！但毒药是什么来着？’因为你面前有个毒药板块——

Obviously, not a one to one, but yeah, there is that, like, one of the funniest things is like when it comes to recollecting the story and you get past one of the tiles and you're like, oh my god, I remember the poison. Now what was the poison? Like, because you have a poison tile in

面前。到底是什么

front of you. What was

毒药的故事是什么？好吧。她把毒药下在烤牛肉里，然后端上桌给他吃。但桌子是那个板块吗？我正努力回忆。

the what was the story of the poison? Okay. She put the poison in the roast beef and served it to him on the table. But was the table the tile? I'm trying to remember.

有时候你会把这些大声说出来，取决于你们团队的氛围。但确实有很多笑声和那种回忆的乐趣，和《Time's Up》带来的体验很像。

And you're sometimes you're saying this out loud, you know, depends on, like, what your group vibe is. But, yeah, a lot of laughter and a lot of that kind of, like, recollection things, stuff that you would you would get from Time's Up, I think.

我刚在BGG上看到有人说‘这是我收藏中最需要你推销给我的游戏’。你觉得

I'm just reading a BGG thing where someone said this is my most will you sell this game to me game that I have in my collection. Do you think

那挺有意思的。

that That's interesting.

你觉得我们互相捣鼓这个会玩得开心吗？

Do you think that we would have fun goofing around with this with each other?

百分百会。

100%.

如果玩家投入的话，这就像'闭嘴坐下'效应——和他们玩很有趣，但要是遇到无趣的人可能就不好玩了。后来呢？我挨了句嘲讽还被点名了。

100 If players bring it, this is like the the shut up and sit down effect where it's like it's fun with them but like it might not be fun if you're boring people. Well and And how how did that go? I got an insult and I got a name drop.

完美。你简直把所有要素都集齐了。是的，再次强调这很吃团队。我觉得要是遇到抱怨记忆量和故事性的玩家，干脆别玩这个。

It was perfect. You had think you checked every single box. Yeah. Again, very group dependent. I think if if you could have people who complain about memorization and storytelling, like, okay, don't play this.

直接放弃。但如果你和那些想要些硬核内容又想玩点傻乐游戏的玩家一起，那就太完美了。简直完美。

Forget about it. But if you are with gamers who want something a little more meaty but wanna play something silly, then this is perfect. This is like perfect.

对啊对啊，我已经开始兴奋了

Yeah. Yeah. I'd be excited

我也是。

about that.

好的，我要介绍的是...刚刚发现我没念全标题。这其实是《指环王：护戒使团的命运》。抱歉漏了个冒号。

Okay. I'm gonna be talking about and I I realized now I did not get the full title. This is in fact the Lord of the Rings colon Fate of the Fellowship. Sorry about that. You deprived us a colon.

我知道，确实漏了。

I know. I do.

好吧。那么，现在这个IP被滥用到什么程度了？

Okay. Well, what is what is going on with the whoring out of this IP right now?

现在有很多《指环王》游戏。你你说得没错。我我想具体来说，是因为在短时间内接连出了两款——说实话，两款相当不错的游戏。我认为《中土之战》即使不是我最喜欢的，也是去年我最喜欢的游戏之一，而这款游戏现在声势浩大。不过，是啊，你说得对。

There are a lot of Lord of the Rings games. You're you're not wrong. I I guess what it is quite specifically is that there were two I mean, honestly, two really good ones in relatively quick succession because I I think that Duel for Middle Earth is, if not my favorite, one of my favorite games from last year, and this has so much hype behind it right now. But, yeah, you know, I I you're right.

这不是那个吃墩游戏，这个是

It's not the trick taking game, and this is

不是哦，你说得对。还有《护戒使者》吃墩游戏。不，你说得对。

not Oh, you're right. There's also the Fellowship of the Ring trick taking game. No. You're right.

还有还有——而且也不是卡牌游戏《魔戒圣战》，那个也出了。对吧？

There's there's And it's not the card game War of the Ring, also happened. Right?

是的。我是说，现在感觉有点疏远了。但没错，我猜这类IP总是如此。《指环王》游戏总是不间断地推出。不过你说得对。

Yeah. I mean, that feels a little bit removed now. But, yeah, I I assume that there's always it's one of those IPs. There's always a steady trickle of, like, Lord of the Rings games. But you're right.

大约在一年半的时间里，就出现了三款大热作品。所以这确实像是《指环王》游戏的一个非常、非常集中的爆发期，尤其是优质作品——这款就不负盛名，确实出色。这是一款完整的史诗级合作冒险游戏，即便在分量上不是一个数量级，其规模绝对堪比《魔戒圣战》这类作品。也就是说，你几乎拥有《指环王》故事中涉及的中土世界全地图。

There were, like, three big hits in, like, the space of a year and a half. So it does feel like a very, very focal big focal point for Lord of the Rings games, especially good ones, which to not bear the lead, this is a good one. Yeah. So this is a full fledged epic cooperative adventure. If it is not similar in weight by an order of magnitude, it's definitely similar in scale to something like War of the Ring, which is to say that you have pretty much the entire map of Middle Earth that's relevant for Lord of the Rings.

护戒小队成员从各自起始区域出发，弗罗多要穿越整个地图销毁魔戒。半兽人在地图上四处活动，西方势力则试图阻击他们。

You have the fellowship. They are starting in their respective parts of the board. Frodo is trying to track all the way across the map to destroy the ring. You have orcs moving around the map. You have the forces of the West sort of trying to fight them.

这基本完整呈现了故事中的所有情节。首先要说明的是，正如盒子上标注的，这是款采用'瘟疫危机'系统的游戏，由该系列创始人马特·利科克设计。其核心机制是每回合结束时抽卡决定半兽人出现和移动的位置——这与原版《瘟疫危机》如出一辙：每名玩家回合结束抽两张卡，显示半兽人的生成点与移动方向。

It is kind of the full fledged depiction of everything going on in that story. One of the important things I will say upfront is that this is, as as listed on the box, a pandemic system game. It's designed by mister pandemic himself, Matt Leacock. And what that means is that the basic mechanism of drawing cards at the end of every turn to determine where are the orcs gonna show up, where are they going to move, is kind of the same as it is all the way back in original pandemic, which is to say that you start by drawing two cards at the end of every player's turn. That will show you where the orcs come up and where they're moving to.

随着抽取所谓的'天幕低垂'卡，威胁会逐步升级。这些卡会洗回牌堆顶部反复出现，因此游戏中后期会出现半兽人席卷地图的爆发式推进。基础机制与《瘟疫危机》前作非常相似，尤其让我联想到《罗马陨落》那款。

That escalates as you draw these what they are called skies darken cards, so the threat gets more and more intense. Those cards get shuffled back on top of the deck, so they keep resurfacing at the same point. So you kinda get these, like, big floods as the game progresses, those orcs just moving across the map. The base mechanics kind of work quite similarly to previous iterations of pandemic. In particular, the one that most comes to my mind is Fall of Rome.

对，这正是我想问的。因为感觉就像是

And Yeah. That was what I was gonna ask. Because it just feels like like

抽一张牌。好的。他们会沿着绿色路线从这个城市移动到那个城市，然后你沿着那条轨道推进所有人。这直接来自《罗马的衰落》。这意味着在某些时刻，你还得设法集结自己的部队。

draw a card. Okay. They're gonna move from this city to this city along the green route, and then you advance everyone along that track. That is just straight from Fall of Rome. So what that means at various points, you're also trying to have to corral your own troops.

你只能用你的角色移动他们，所以你得接上他们，把他们放在某些地方，保卫这些地方，通过在半路拦截兽人来攻击它们，防止它们到达你的据点。因为，就像，你输掉这个游戏的所有方式都围绕着一种资源，就叫希望。对吧？所以如果你失去一个据点，希望？希望。

You can only move them with your characters, so you're gonna have to pick them up, drop them off in places, defend these places, attack orcs by sort of heading them off before they get to your strongholds. Because, like, all of the ways you can kind of lose this game all revolve around this one resource is just just called hope. Right? So if you lose a stronghold Hope? Hope.

是的。就像是，你知道的，就像是

Yeah. It's it's like it's it's, you know, it's

哦天啊。

a Oh god.

嗯，这有点像是代表，或者基本上是《辐射》

Well, it's kind of representative of like or basically the Fallout

货物照片

Shipment photo

失去希望。是的。嗯，这实际上就像是书中的一个主要主题，可以说，就是他们都在依靠那微小的希望，那微小的机会。随着护戒队失去希望，随着弗罗多和山姆进入魔多，咕噜出现，一切都被腐蚀了，就像戒指的腐蚀和希望可以说是对立的。我想说，这是一个相当常见的主题。

of losing hope. Yeah. Well, it's it's literally like one of the main motifs of of books, would say, which is like this idea that they're all riding on the small hope that is the small chance that they have. And as the fellowship loses hope, as Frodo and Sam are getting into Mordor and Gollum shows up and all gets corrupted, like corruption of the ring and hope are kind of like polar opposites, I would say. Like, that that I would say that's a pretty pretty common theme.

凯伦想要资源

Kellen wants the resources to

像是木头和羊毛吗？不。凯伦，最伟大的资源是希望。

be like wood and wool and No. Kellen, the greatest resource is hope.

不，我明白这一点。

No. I understand that.

总是这么说。

Always said that.

你不能大声说出来。

You can't say it out loud.

明白我的意思吗？对，大声说出来听着挺滑稽的。你没错，你确实没错。

See what I'm saying? Yeah. It sounds funny when you say it out loud. You're not you're not wrong.

就像我们不会直接说爱对方。我们不能说，因为那样会破坏某些东西。

It's like we don't tell each other we love each other. We just and we can't because then that ruins something.

是啊，我不知道该怎么说。凯伦，我一直告诉你我爱你。你从来不说实话。对。

Yeah. I don't know wrong. Kellen, I keep telling you I love you. You just never say a fact. Yeah.

如果你失去所有希望，游戏就结束了。另一方面，你要努力保持这种失衡状态——如果夺回据点，就能恢复少量希望。但关键的是，若丢失据点后重新夺回，获得的希望会少于失去的。所以绝不能只想着维持平衡，必须全力防守这些据点。

I don't So if you lose all of your hope, there's the game over. And the the other way you're trying to keep that imbalance, if you reclaim strongholds, you gain a little hope. Although importantly, if you lose a stronghold and then gain it back, you gain less than you lost. So you never wanna just, like, try keeping that in balance. You really need to be defending those.

这部分机制其实类似《魔戒圣战》，游戏分为两大板块：其一是调兵遣将的战场部署，涉及大量骰子战斗。不过即便依赖骰运，结果通常是一换一的拉锯战，骰子机制在这方面相当平衡。只要策略得当，多数情况下你能压制敌人，但终究要看骰子脸色。其二是完成随机任务，这才是游戏真正的精髓——每局开局会抽三张随机任务卡，它们与摧毁魔戒的主线共同构成胜利条件。

And those are kind of, again, similar to War of the Ring, the two halves of the game, which is there's this half about sort of trying to manage the board presence and, like, get your troops into place and fight battles, and there's a hefty chunk of dice rolling in this. Although, you know, even though you're rolling dice, it often amounts to kinda just, like, tit for tat one for one. Like, the dice are fairly balanced in that way. More often than not, I would say if you're managing stuff correctly, you're actually doing better against the enemy than against you, but ultimately, you are still rolling dice. The second half is completing these objectives, and this is actually where I think the game really, really shines because you get three random objective cards at the start of every game, and those are your three objectives for the game, and then you always have the objective to destroy the ring.

完成这三个任务并摧毁魔戒就能获胜。这些任务完美融入了游戏剧情元素，比如昨天我玩的一局里，任务就是让阿拉贡穿越山脉集结亡者之路的幽灵军团。

So you complete those three objectives. You destroy the ring. You've won the game. But those three objectives are so bespoke from, like, story elements drawn from the game. So, like, here's an example from a game I did yesterday, which is you move Aragorn through the mountains to pick up the ghosts from the paths of the dead.

再指挥他南下至刚铎边境作战

You move him down to, like, the bottom of Gondor, fight

所有的

all of

那些兽人。所以它非常具体地重现了书籍和电影中一个非常突出的时刻，对吧？在完成这个目标的过程中，你只是在机械地重现故事中一个非常精确的组成部分。然后这种情况在地图上的三个不同地方同时发生。

the orcs there. So it's it's recreating quite specifically, like, a very prominent moment in the books and the films. Right? So just in the course of completing that objective, you are just mechanically recreating a very precise component of the story. And then that's happening on, like, three different places around the map.

因为，你还在试图夺回摩瑞亚或类似的事情，或者你正努力派一支小部队去瑞文戴尔。所以，仅仅是通过自然地参与游戏的机制，尽管没有非常具体的指示，比如这个人会确切地去哪里，那个人会确切地去哪里，你最终还是在某种程度上自然而然地重现了书籍和电影中的场景。我认为这非常美妙。对于一个并不像‘当这个精确的触发器在这个精确的时间发生，这个精确的事件就会发生’那样刻板的游戏来说，事件只是自然而然地叙事般地浮现出来。

Because, also, you're trying to get Moria recaptured or something like that, or you're trying to get a little force to Rivendell. So you just by naturalistically sort of engaging with mechanics of the game, even though there's no very quite specific, like, oh, this is exactly where this person will go. This is exactly where this person will go. You end up kinda just naturalistically naturalistically recreating moments from the books and the films, which are just I think I think it's quite lovely. For a game that's not quite as like, oh, and when this exact trigger happens at this exact time and this exact event happens, the events just kind of emerge narratively naturally.

这部分之所以效果特别好，是因为你会发现，地图上那些区域更狭窄的地方更难通过。所以你最终会带着弗罗多走秘密路线。你到达魔多，有一条路径是直接穿过黑门，但这会消耗大量资源，或者还有另一条后路，消耗的资源较少。所以，再次通过机制微妙地为你呈现游戏的故事。由于每局游戏你都会得到三个不同的目标，以及许多不同的角色，每个角色都有自己的特殊能力，你在每局游戏中都会体验到故事的不同子集。

And part of why that really works quite well is you'll kind of find that, like, okay, the parts of the map where the board is more constricted are harder to travel through. So you end up taking Frodo through the secret routes. You get down to Mordor, and there's a path that is like, okay, just go through the black gate, and that costs a lot of resources, or there's this other path down the back which costs less resources. So, again, subtle ways that it's just kind of through the mechanics giving you the story of of the game. And because of the fact that you're getting those three different objectives every game and and, you know, a bunch of different characters, all of which have their own special powers, you're getting kinda just different subsets of the stories in each one of these games.

好吧。我觉得这很棒。我认为它在主题上非常扎实。绝对是我玩过的最好的主题性《指环王》游戏之一。但有一个很大的警告，很大的缺点，我得说，它仍然是‘瘟疫危机’的模式。

Okay. I think that's great. I think it's quite thematically solid. Certainly one of the best thematic big Lord of the Rings games I played. Big caveat, big downside, I will say, it's still pandemic.

我的意思是，每回合结束时抽取那些阴影卡的繁琐过程仍然会占用大量时间。这比以往任何时候都更加繁琐，因为你要在这个巨大且相当混乱的地图上找到兽人会出现的那一个点，找到它们从一个地点移动到另一个地点的具体路线，沿着那条路线移动所有的兽人。如果它们遇到任何敌人，就掷骰子进行战斗。所以这些回合结束阶段，也就是每个玩家的回合结束时，可能会让人觉得相当乏味。我一直认为这是基础版‘瘟疫危机’的一个问题。

And what I mean by that is that that tedium of drawing those shadow cards at the end of every single turn does still take up a lot of time. It's a lot more fiddly than it's ever been because it's find this one spot on this massive, I would say quite messy map where the orcs are gonna show up, find the specific route that they're moving from location to location, move all the orcs along that route. If they meet any enemies, roll some dice to do a battle. So those end of turn phases, which again is every single player's turn, can start to feel quite tedious. I always thought that was a problem with base pandemic.

在《护戒使者的命运》中，这个问题更加严重。其后果是这个游戏需要大约两个多小时才能玩完。如果你是为了一个大型的《指环王》体验而投入一个晚上或下午的时间，那还好。但在我玩的游戏中，我发现自己到最后有点失去动力，尽管大部分时间我都很享受。感觉就像，我希望这个游戏能短半小时，甚至短一半。因为，提醒一下，基础版‘瘟疫危机’最多可能只需要一个小时。

It's much more of a problem in Fate of the Fellowship. And the consequence of that is this game takes about two plus hours to play, which, again, if you're in it for a big evenings or afternoons worth Lord of the Rings experience, that's fine. I tended to find in the games I was playing that I was losing steam a little bit towards the end as much as I was mostly enjoying it. It did just feel like, I mean, I wish this was, like, half an hour shorter or even, like, half as long. Because, you know, as a reminder, like, base pandemic is an hour tops probably.

我认为大多数版本的‘瘟疫危机’都落入了这个范畴，所以这个游戏至少比以前长了一倍。所以，是的，在我看来这绝对是一个巨大的缺点。你必须真的愿意投入一个漫长的时间，可能是你以前玩过的最沉重的‘瘟疫危机’类游戏，才能真正享受这个游戏。但如果你是《指环王》的粉丝，如果你像我一样喜欢那个故事和那个世界，我认为这足以让你觉得你得到了你想要的东西。

I think most of the versions of pandemic have kind of fallen into that realm, so this is twice as long at least than it's it's ever been before. So, yeah, definitely a huge downside in my opinion. Like, you have to really be in it for a big, long, and probably the heaviest pandemic like game that you've played before to, like, really be into this. But if if you are a Lord of the Rings fan and if you like that story in that world as much as I do, I think that's gonna be enough to make you feel like you're getting what you want out

这个。你们的玩家数量是多少？

of this. What was your player count?

我只在两人模式下玩过。玩了好几局

I've only done it at two players. Several games at

两名玩家。

two players.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你可能会觉得玩家越多，游戏时间就越长，对吧？

And would you imagine that the time would be longer with more players probably. Right?

我认为几乎可以肯定。是的，我甚至无法想象。值得一提的是，我说的那些长时间游戏，也是双人局。所以，确实如此。

I think almost certainly. Yeah. I can't even imagine. And for what is worth, even those long games I'm talking about, that is at two players. So, like Yeah.

对。如果满员四人玩的话，我猜游戏时间会更长。也许不会？我在认真思考《瘟疫危机》的情况。实际上，无论谁在行动，每局游戏的总行动轮数可能差不多。

Yeah. If you were at the full complement of four, like, I would have to imagine it would get longer. Maybe not. I'm trying to think about pandemic, like, really. And I guess, actually, whether you're doing the turns, you're probably gonna end up with the same amount turns in your average game.

但我确实认为游戏时间会更长。是的，我觉得光是考虑到...

But I yeah. I think you would expect a longer game. Yeah. I think just by virtue of the fact

因为这是合作游戏对吧？而且规则确实鼓励玩家公开手牌。我认为规则里明确写了这点。所以每回合前会有更多讨论和计划。

because it's cooperative. Right? And you the the game does encourage you to, like, play with open hands. I think it's literally in the rule. So there's just gonna be a lot more conversation and planning and that before every turn.

所以我认为核心操作时间可能差不多，但其他环节会稍微拖长些。

So I think the beat to beat would probably be as long, but the everything else would take slightly longer at the edges.

和你一起玩的人，他们也是《指环王》的忠实粉丝吗？

The person you're playing with, were they also big fans of Lord of the Rings

是的。总体来说？

Yes. In general?

是的。考虑到游戏时长相对较长，再加上你们俩都是《指环王》粉丝，这是否成为你们a)享受游戏、b)能接受（用‘忍受’可能太重了）这么长时间的关键因素？你觉得非《指环王》粉丝会不会更难坚持玩完？

Yeah. So and given the time, like, the relatively longer game play and the fact that you guys are both Lord of Rings fans, was that a crucial component in you, a, enjoying it and, b, being able to, like stomach is too strong a word, but, like, be okay with the length of time. Like, do you think that non Lord of the Rings fans would have a much more difficult time sticking out

两个半小时吗？不，完全理解你的问题。我的直觉告诉我，答案恐怕是肯定的。

for two and a half hours? Or do you get those No. Totally. I I get your question. I think that, like, my gut says that the answer to that, unfortunately, is yes.

如果你不是《指环王》粉丝，你会更快到达那个开始觉得‘好吧，这有点拖沓’的临界点。

If you were not a Lord of the Rings fan, you would get to the point quicker where you were starting to feel like, okay. This is dragging on a little bit.

对。对。对。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

是的。虽然我不能百分百确定，但...对，这是我的感觉。

Yeah. And that's I I you know, I I can't say that for sure, but, like Yeah. That's my impression.

而且现在有很多疫情主题游戏的粉丝，光是‘疫情游戏’这个标签就足够吸引他们了。所以我完全理解。

And there are tons of, like, pandemic fans out there who just being a pandemic game is more than enough to to get them going. So I totally understand that. Yeah.

我确实认为，作为最新一部《疫情》系列游戏（这个IP本身非常受欢迎）加上质量不错的《指环王》改编游戏，这两点已经足够——事实上它现在就很受喜爱。但如果你对这两者都不感兴趣，可能会有点难熬。因为不得不说，《疫情》的游戏机制确实显得有些过时了。

I I do think that that specific thing of it being both the latest pandemic game, which is obviously a hugely popular franchise Yeah. Itself and a quite good Lord of the Rings game is gonna be enough for this I mean, to be it's already proving to be quite well beloved. But but I do think that, like, you're gonna struggle a little bit. If you're neither of those things, I just I find it hard to think that that's gonna hold up. Because one of the things I think that's quite apparent, unfortunately, I think, is that the pandemic system is showing its age a little bit.

过去五到十年里出现了很多优秀的合作游戏，它们大幅简化或完全取消了这些版图管理元素，依然能做出烧脑的解谜合作游戏。回过头玩这个，反而让我想起‘啊对，这就是为什么我不常玩《疫情》了’。

We've had a lot of good cooperative games in the last five, ten years that have streamlined a lot of these board management elements quite a lot or done away with them entirely and still ends up producing, like, very sort of good puzzly thinky cooperative games. So going back to it was kind of this interesting reminder of, like, oh, yeah. I remember why I don't play that much pandemic. You know?

明白。另外我查资料时发现，这游戏在VGA平台也有版本。如果想试玩可以在Gamarina上找到。

Sure. Sure. I'll also just say, like, in looking this up to sort of follow along with Neil and description, it turns out that there is a version on VGA. So if you wanna try it out, you can try it onboard Gamarina.

哦，很高兴你提到这个——我本来正要说呢。我建议别在VGA上玩这个。呃...确实。

Oh. I'm glad you actually mentioned that because I I I hadn't thought of that before you were just about to say it. I would encourage you not to play this in VGA. For Oh. Yeah.

好吧。这么说吧，几个月前我确实先在VGA上玩过这个游戏，当时觉得完全看不懂。因为问题部分在于，好处当然是所有记录工作都是自动完成的。但轮到你的时候，你会发现，如果不亲眼看到过程，回合之间的信息量实在太大了。

Okay. So for what it's worth, I did play this first on VGA a couple of months ago, and I found it incomprehensible on there. Because part of the problem is because, obviously, the upside, right, is that all the bookkeeping happens automatically. But then you come back to your turn, and you're like, it's too much to take in from turn to turn without seeing

发生的一切。

it happen.

就像你看着地图，发现兽人分散在各处，简直是一团乱麻。我...我甚至...实际上那次在BGA玩完后，我还在积极劝别人说：听着，这游戏可能还行，但我很惊讶他们居然把它放上BGA，因为它给人留下的印象太差了。这还是预发布阶段的事，对吧？

Like so you you just look at the map, you see orcs are all in different places and, like, it's it's just it's just an incomprehensible mess. I I I just I I would actually to the extent that when I came out of that game on BGA, I was actively encouraging people like, look. I think this game might be okay, but I I'm shocked they put it on BGA because it left such a bad impression of it. And this was in the prerelease. Right?

所以...是啊，很奇怪。我觉得这是普遍感受。这游戏玩起来很吃力，尤其是异步模式，毕竟它是合作游戏。

So Yeah. Weird. Weird. I I think that that's a very common sentiment. It is it seemed to be a rough game to play, especially asynchronously because it's co op.

看起来是个很棒的产品。

It seems like a great product.

没错，完全同意。但...

Yes. Totally. But it's

我想问的是，尼尔兰，抽象地说——假设《指环王》对你象征着希望，而《宝可梦》对我象征着希望。你总不会希望自己拥有的每款游戏...我这么说可能有点玩笑性质...但就连一半游戏都是《指环王》主题的，你也不愿意吧？

like I I guess my question, Nieland, is abstractly for you. Like, let's say Lord of the Rings represents hope for you, and and let's say Pokemon represents hope for me. Like, you wouldn't want every game that you own and and I say that, like, facetiously. But, like, you wouldn't want even half of your games to be Lord of the Rings themed. Right?

是不是真的存在一个临界点。

Like, is there a there actually is a tipping point.

绝对存在。

Absolutely.

而且...可能这根本不重要。这就是我想说的，对这款游戏无关紧要。它肯定会大获成功。但问题是，你会想要10款《指环王》游戏吗？

And and and maybe it doesn't matter. That's what I'm saying. This doesn't matter for this game. It's gonna be a huge success. But, like, do you want 10 Lord of the Rings games?

没错，完全同意。你一提到这个，我突然开始思考，我到底有多少这类游戏，又打算保留多少？对吧？比如，我现在手头有四款《指环王》游戏，它们各自占据着略有不同的细分领域。

No. Totally. As soon as it's you do have me suddenly thinking, like, how many do I have and how many do I wanna keep? Right? Like, I I think I currently have four Lord of the Rings games, and they kind of occupy different niches a little bit.

我觉得这样挺好，但说实话，我还在犹豫这款游戏是否能长期留在我的收藏里。它确实填补了我的一个空白——作为一款更易上手的中重度合作游戏。尤其当你能用'大家都熟悉这个主题'作为卖点时，入门门槛就更低了。

And I think that that's fine in that sense, but, like, yeah, I'm honestly on the fence about whether this is one that is going to stick around long term. It does do something, which I don't have, which is it is a more accessible medium heavy cooperative game, you know Yep. Which is a nothing. And especially when you can just sell people on, like, hey, everyone knows this theme. Here's your buy ins.

因为比起《精灵岛》，我更愿意向非硬核玩家推荐这款。对了，还有一点要补充——整体制作非常精良。虽然从平面设计角度看地图美术有点杂乱，但配件触感极佳。

Because I I would break this out sooner than I would break out Spirit Island with people that weren't heavy gamers. So yeah. Yeah. I I one thing I would just say also very quickly, just because I didn't mention it already, lovely production in a lot of ways. I think the art of the map is bit a bit messy from a graphic design perspective, but, like, the pieces are very tactile.

那些兽人棋子其实就是立方体木制米宝，戒灵模型则带着飞行支架在地图上盘旋。整套游戏铺开时视觉效果震撼，看起来酷极了。这就是Matt Leacock与Z-Man Games合作的《指环王：护戒使团的命运》。

You have these little orcs that just go or basically the cubes and that they are just like little wooden meeples, big chunky bits, Nazgul that are like on like flying stands as miniatures that fly around the map. It just has incredible table presence when it's all laid out. Very cool looking game. That is the Lord of the Rings fate of the fellowship by Matt Leacock and Z Man games.

好的。在进入正题前，Kellen，我看到你准备了个叫'来来去去'的新环节要介绍？

Okay. Before we move on to the main topic, Kellen, I'm seeing here that you have a segment here called comings and goings that you wanna introduce.

没错！全新环节闪亮登场！大家就爱看这个。

That's right. Brand new segment, baby. Here we go. No. People like it.

都想知道什么游戏要进什么游戏要出嘛。

Wanna know what's what's what's coming and what's going. Yeah.

顺便问下，为什么'来'字要那样拼写？

And ask also, why why did you spell coming that way

听着啊，我就是想列个清单——最近处理了些旧游戏也买了新游戏。可就连我自己看着这份'进出清单'都觉得：'这波操作有失误啊'，有些决定现在后悔了。

on Listen. Alright. So I just wanted to list off because I'm getting rid of some games and I bought some new games. And it's like, even as I look at my own list of cummings, I'm like, I've made some mistakes. You know, I have some regrets here.

所以打算快速过一遍清单，让你们评判我的买卖决策对不对。观众就爱看这种环节，对吧？

So Yeah. I just wanted to read them off in rapid fire and then have you guys tell me I'm right or I'm wrong, right, in terms of what I have purchased and what I've gotten rid of. So I think people like this. This is what they like.

是啊。你明白我的意思吗？对，人们喜欢清单。我一直说人们喜欢列清单。

Yeah. Do you know what mean? Yeah. People like lists. I've I've always said people like lists listing things.

没错。好的。在卡明斯类别里，我们有两本《创新第四版》作为赠阅本。这本书已经绝版了，我之前想送第三版给很多人，现在新版本终于来了。这是遗憾之处。

That's right. Okay. So in the Cummings category, we have two copies of innovation fourth edition as gift copies. This goes out of print and I wanted to give the third edition to so many people, so now I've got new copies coming. Here's the regret.

盐峡湾，圣玛丽亚的重制版。我一直想玩这个游戏，所以买了盐峡湾。我确信这个会很受欢迎。《五》，田树泽在洋红系列的另一款游戏，绿色五ura（如果你玩过的话）。我买了《你画我猜》12人派对包的第二版，因为盒子更小，而且我上一套已经不成样子了。

Salt Fjord, the redo of Santa Maria. I just have always wanted to play this game, so I bought Salt Fjord. I'm sure this is gonna be going. Fives, another game from Taiki Shinzawa in the magenta line, the green fiveura, if you've played it. I bought the second edition of Telestration's 12 player party pack because the box is smaller and my last copy is out of sorts.

然后我买了Oink的新游戏叫t r n d。大家知道这个缩写代表什么吗？

And then I got a new Oink game called t r n d. What is that short for everybody?

趋势。趋势。

Trend. Trend.

我猜是这样，但谁说得准呢？在待处理类别里，有《准备下注》高额版。尼尔兰逼我玩了一个比它更好、体积更小的游戏，现在我恨他。《跃迁驱动》。能和克里斯蒂娜玩《银河竞逐》的话，我为什么要玩这个？

I assume so, but who can say? In in the goings category, we have ready set bet high roller edition. Nieland made me play a game that is better than it and much smaller than it and now I hate him. Jump Drive. Why would I play this when I could play Race for the Galaxy with Christina?

《撒克逊遗产合集·蓝》，糟糕的游戏。《智慧三维》，不如另一个版本。《血石》，我大概两年没碰过了。问题是——你们有没有关于待处理游戏的规则？比如超过X时间没玩就处理掉？懂我意思吗？

Saxon Legacy Collection Blue, terrible game. Ingenious three d, not as good as the other one. Bloodstones, I haven't played it in like two years. Here's the thing, do you guys have a rule about goings like if you haven't played it in x amount of time? Do you know what I mean?

这种应该设为默认规则。

Like that should be a default rule.

有些游戏我可以给你通融，但...确实该这样。

There are some games I will give leeway to you on that but like, yes.

没错。《虎与龙》，Oink出的体积过大的游戏，但很好玩。真的很有趣。《大平原》，一个我再没重玩的两人游戏。

Yes. Tiger and Dragon, an Oink game that is too large and it's good. It's good. It's very fun. The Great Plane, a two player game I've not returned to.

《Havillandia》，一款Reiner Knutsen的游戏，我没再回去玩过。《Dirge the Rust War》，我更喜欢其他Cloudist出品的游戏。《Sovereign's Chained》，还没玩过，真惭愧。没玩过。《Vebank》呢？

Havillandia, a Reiner Knutsen game, I've not returned to. Dirge the Rust War, I have so many other Cloudist games I prefer. Sovereign's Chained, unplayed for shame on this one. Unplayed. Vebank?

好吧。给玩家准备的派对游戏。懂吗？我现在连一起玩游戏的朋友都没有。怎么可能为那些玩家准备派对游戏？

Okay. Party game for gamers. Okay? I don't even have a group of gamers playing games with me right now. So how can I have party games for those gamers?

明白我的意思了吧？

See what I mean?

你要用Esselbrook替换掉那个位置对吧？

You're replacing that spot with Esselbrook in there. Right?

对。我懂了。给玩家的。嗯。我已经买好了。

Yeah. I got it. For gamers. Yeah. I picked it up already.

移动市场，智能手机更胜一筹。海外市场，因羞耻而未曾涉足。伙计们，这就是我的现状。但这些就是我生活中的来来往往。

Mobile markets, smartphone is better. Offshore, unplayed for shame. This is where I'm at guys. But like, these are the comings and goings in my life.

唯一让我有点难过的是血石，因为看起来当我想玩的时候它就在上面？重点。哦，如果我不和你一起玩，我还会玩血石吗？这是个好问题，他好像是唯一一个。哦哦，别那样做。

The only one I'm a little bit sad about there is Bloodstones because that seems like when I want I should play It's on it? Point. Oh, will I ever play Bloodstones if I don't play with you? That's a good he's like the only one. Oh oh, don't do that.

别这么做，问题是

Don't do Well, the thing is

你想要

Do you want

它吗？我猜我是基于你不想玩它的假设，但也许并非如此

it? I'm I guess I'm working on the assumption that you wouldn't want to play it, but maybe that's not

播放它。

play it.

我可能...也许我会...好吧，我们聊聊。也许我会选那个

I'd Maybe I'll maybe I'll well, let's talk. Maybe I'll take that one

关掉 是的。你的

off Yeah. Your

是啊。这些东西都会放在我车库里，如果你们想趁我没处理掉之前闯进来...我也不知道。我总对人们买卖丢弃的东西很感兴趣，可能有趣也可能无聊。

Yeah. Well, these will all be in my garage, so if you wanna break in until I can figure out how to get rid of them. I don't know. I always am interested in what people are buying and getting rid of. Maybe that's interesting, maybe it's not.

现在进入正题。马克，你在开场时完全搞砸了，我要明确声明——这集标题叫《哎呀全是前戏》，明白吗？这就是本集标题。

Let's move on to our featured topic. Mark, you butchered it in the upfront, I just wanna be clear. I wanna be very clear that the name of this episode is Oops All Foreplay. Okay? That is the name of the episode.

尼昂，别想改标题。明白吗？他掌握元数据编辑权。恭喜你啊，总算管点事了。

Neon, don't even attempt to change it. Okay? He has editorial control of the metadata. Congratulations. You're in charge of something.

本集标题是《OOBSOLVE FOREPLAY》。我现在完全沉迷这个创意，懂吗？听起来就像...

The episode is called OOBSOLVE FOREPLAY. And I'm okay. I'm obsessed with this idea right now. Okay? And it's this sounds like

前戏？

a FOREPLAY?

没错，爱死这个了。我痴迷这个点子，其实是听洛德新专辑产生的灵感。

Well, yes. Love it. Big fan. I'm obsessed with this idea. It actually came to me because I've been listening to Lorde's new album a lot.

我是洛德铁粉，平时很少透露。就像希望与爱这类事，你不会随便和人分享。但这张专辑所有歌都有种渐强的张力。

I'm a big Lorde stan. I don't I don't reveal that often. Kinda like the hope and the love thing. You just don't you don't share this with people. But all of the songs on the album have this like slowly ramping tension.

然后会有一个高潮时刻，但它大概只有十二秒长。而现代流行音乐就像全是糖衣炮弹，过度堆砌，你知道的，在歌曲还没进行到两分钟时副歌就已经重复六遍了。这张Lord的专辑之所以能让我持久喜爱，是因为我就是想让副歌继续下去，或者希望歌曲结尾的那个瞬间能延长，但它只有大约五秒。所以我在想，有没有桌游能给你那种感觉——就在渐入佳境时戛然而止，或者在你正强大时突然结束。这是有意为之的设计吗？

And then there's a payoff moment, but like it's like twelve seconds long. And like modern pop is like all about just confection, sugar, over the top, you know, it's running the chorus six times, you know, before you've even gotten two minutes into the song. And like what has made this Lord album have staying power for me is that I just like want the chorus to keep going or I want this moment at the end of the song to keep going, and it's only, like, five seconds long. And so I was wondering if there were board games that give you that feeling of, like, either right as it's getting good, it ends, or right as you're powerful, it ends. And is that being done intentionally?

就像，我们都知道这是游戏最有趣的部分。有点像电子游戏，比如《英雄联盟》。当游戏进行到十五分钟，所有人都发育完毕准备开战时特别有意思，但你必须经历前期阶段才能到达那个节点，这种曲线设计最终会让你获得满足感，所以你会重新开局。那么有没有那种'哎呀，全是前戏'的游戏？这期节目可以起个绝佳标题：让你欲罢不能的游戏。

Like, we know this is the fun part of the game. You know, it's a little bit like in video games, like in League of Legends. It's really fun when you're at the fifteen minute mark and everyone is powered up and ready to go, But you have to play the beginning part of the game to get to that game, and it has this arc that sort of leaves you satisfied, and that's why you start back over. So are there games that are, oops, all foreplay? And this is a great title for an episode, games that leave you wanting more.

你们想让我先开始，还是已经理解这个主题了？

Do you want me to go first, or do you guys understand the prompt?

嗯。我挺好奇的，想顺着这个思路探讨一下。当你提出这个话题时，我一直在思考的是：我们反复讨论的焦点究竟在哪里？就像游戏曲线中哪个部分最关键？你反复强调的似乎是——不。

Yeah. I'd be curious, like, just to to riff on, like, the idea a little bit here, which is that one of the things I was trying to figure out when you had proposed this topic is, you know, we we were talking back and forth about, like, where the specific thing is in this? Like, where on the curve is, like, the most important part for a game to hit? And I think the thing that you were sort of saying repeatedly was like, okay. No.

这是一款懂得如何收尾且收得漂亮的游戏。对吧？是的。没错。

It's a it's a game that, like, that knows how to finish and finish strong. Right? Yes. Yeah. Well, yes.

某种程度上是的。或者说——举个例子，虽然我手头没有具体数据，但像《一夜终极狼人》就没有前戏，因为整局游戏都是高潮。一回合结束就重开。

To some extent. To some extent, yes and. Or it's like, here's a thing. Like, I I don't have the good this and that, but like, one night ultimate werewolf, okay, has no foreplay because it's all play. It's one round, the game's over, and then you play again.

所以这是你会反复游玩的游戏，但因为它一局只要五分钟。而像《血染钟楼》这样的游戏，是否存在最佳阶段？还是整个游戏过程本身就是游戏？最容易理解的例子就是引擎构筑类游戏的结束时机。

So that is a game that you want to play over and over again, but that's because the game is five minutes. Where it's like, is there a best part of a game of Blood on the Clock Tower? Is the whole game the game? So Yeah. Like the easiest example, the easiest example here is engine builders and when they end.

对吧？比如人们常说的《农场主》，对我来说它完美就在于——当我的农场刚能正常运转时游戏就结束了。整个过程充满煎熬，但就在突破临界点时戛然而止。不过也有人讨厌这点，他们更喜欢像《殖民火星》那样能多运转几次引擎，或是《洞穴农夫》那种更平和的节奏。《农场主》对我来说就是绝佳范例。

Right? So like people will talk about Agricola and Agricola is perfect for me because right as I've gotten to my farm is like functioning, the game ends. So it's sort of like misery the whole time and then right as you clear the moment. But other folks hate that and they want to do this sort of terraforming Mars where I run my engine a couple times or my cavern where it's it's more peaceful. So Agricola, great example for me.

《璀璨宝石》对我来说也是经典例子——当我感觉'哇现在想买什么都能买'，仿佛成为游戏宇宙中的半神时，游戏突然结束，然后我就只想重新体验那种强大感。你们觉得哪些游戏有这种特质？

Yeah. Splendor is a great example for me where right as I feel like, oh, I could buy anything I want. I'm like this powerful demigod of the Splendor universe. Suddenly, the game is over and then I just wanna get back to that feeling of when I am powerful. So what games are like that for you?

突然想到的是

The one that pops

每当提到这类话题时，我脑海中浮现的就是《马可波罗游记》，原版的马可波罗游戏。因为我觉得这游戏就像是你不断挣扎、挣扎，然后终于开始变强，就在你终于能大展拳脚时，游戏结束了。无数次感觉它总是提前一轮结束。这也是为什么即使很久没玩，当我再次体验那种渐入佳境却戛然而止的感觉时，反而会想重玩。

into mind whenever this is like anything in this vein is brought up is Voyages of Marco Polo, the original Marco Polo game. Because I feel like it's a game where like you're struggling, you're struggling, and then you start getting powerful and just as you are able to do things finally, the game ends. It always feels like as tons tons of times, like, feels like it ends one round too early. It's, like, part of the reason that I find myself even when I haven't played in a long time and, like, thinking, oh, I'm I'm sort of done with Marco Polo. Like, when I do play it and I do feel like Crescendo and the game ends, it makes me wanna play it again.

这种动态确实让我在心理上重新将其归类为想玩的好游戏。

It it does, like, reintroduce it as a as a good game that I wanna play in my mind just because of that dynamic.

那让我们替比我们聪明的人——西蒙尼、卢西亚尼和图希尼——推测下：这是平衡性设计阻止游戏多进行三轮？还是开发者知道这是最后的甜头，故意只给适量让你想重玩？毕竟这也算另一种形式的可重玩性。

So let's let's speculate on behalf of, you know, people who are smarter than us, Simone, Luciani, and Tushini here. Is it a balance thing that is preventing that game from running three more rounds? Or is it a we know this is the sugar at the end of the whatever and we're like trying to give you just enough of it that you that you actually want to replay it? Because this is replayability in another form Yeah. Whatever degree.

我觉得用马可波罗作为案例来分析特别有启发性，因为

I think trying to figure this out using Marco Polo as the example is especially illuminating I'll do because

哦，好吧。启发性。

Oh, okay. Illuminating.

是的。因为《马可波罗2》抛弃了这个设计，他们选择了'直接让玩家施展拳脚'。

Yes. Because there is a Marco Polo two where they abandon that. They went with, no. Okay. Let's just let you do stuff then.

也许是玩家抗议，也许他们想尝试新方向。不确定二代开发的初衷，但续作确实没有那种挣扎感。

Maybe there was an outcry. Maybe they just wanna try something different. I don't know what exactly the the genesis was for making Marco Polo two, but Markopol two does not have that struggle struggle. Uh-oh. Oh.

我刚要进入状态变强，游戏就结束了。

Oh. I'm getting good. I'm getting strong. Getting strong. And it ends.

二代从第二轮开始就能顺畅行动，这也是我对它热情大减的原因之一。

It has the okay. I'm just I'm good. Like, starting with round two, pretty much. Like, I I can sort of do things. And it's one of the reasons why I like it so much less.

或许开发者原计划如此却遭反对，或是事后发现结束得太仓促。我猜最初就是故意设计成渐强后戛然而止，因为这很有趣——这样设计可能更简单，不用考虑玩家后期过强对经济系统的影响。但无论如何，他们在续作尝试的改变在我看来效果差很多。

So maybe maybe they they did plan it and then they got a backlash or maybe they didn't plan it and then realized, oh, we made this, like, end too quickly. My suspicion is that it was made as intended to have that crescendo and ending because it was an interesting way to design games and and so it probably leads to like a maybe, I don't know, this is me speaking without any knowledge, but like, it probably leads to like an easier design because you don't have to worry about people getting super powerful and what the ramifications are to very powered up players in the game because it probably throws off a lot of the economies in the game. But whatever the reason was for doing it that way, it seems like they tried something different with Marco Polo to to much lesser results in in my opinion.

是的。在这种情况下，我更倾向于认为这是一个愉快的意外，并不是说他们不知道自己在做什么，结果就这样了。但我确实认为，从卢西亚尼和其他意大利设计师的许多游戏中可以看出，曲线相对平缓，没有像《马可波罗》那样具有爆发性的特点。正如你所说，可能是因为他们过度调整后发现更多人喜欢那样。有趣的是，我们看到很多游戏采用更受欢迎的方式，比如《火星改造》，就是一个完美的例子。

Yeah. It's it's in that case because, like, I I'm actually more inclined to believe I mean, believe that it was, like, a happy accident and, like, not in the sense that, like, they didn't know what they were doing and it just it ended up, you know, anything like that. But, like, I do think that you can tell from a lot of the other Luciani and, like, other Italian designer games that I would say that the curve is a little bit more flat and that, you know, it doesn't feel like they have those, like, explosive features the way that Marco Polo does. And like you said, that could be because they overcorrected and found that more people liked that. I do think that what is interesting, we do see a lot of games where that is a more popular way to do it, like Terraforming Mars, think, perfect example.

这是一款极其受欢迎的游戏，我完全同意你只是在这个领域里以最高效率运行引擎太久，甚至没有那种稳定的积累，让你在结束时感到非常非常满足。关于这一点，有趣的是，我在思考这个问题时想到，这是不是典型的凯莉式问题？我认为凯莉经常思考的是，每款游戏都应该有一个大场面，对吧？

Incredibly popular game where I would absolutely agree that you are just in this realm of running your engine at, like, peak efficiency for too long or even just, like, not having that steady buildup in a way that leaves you feeling very, very, very satisfied by the end. And one the things that's interesting about that to me is that one of the thoughts I had when I was thinking about this question is that is this, like, such a quintessential Kelly question. Right? Which is, one of the things I think about a lot about a lot with Kelly is, like, the idea that every game should have, like, a big moment. You know?

就像，一个时刻，每个人都全神贯注，专注于某人做出的大动作。符合这种描述的游戏通常都会把这种场面设计在游戏结束时，比如高潮部分。相比之下，我认为很多所谓的标准欧式游戏并不太关注这一点，这似乎是一种更普遍的设计选择。尽管我喜欢很多这类游戏，比如《奥丁的盛宴》完全没有这种设计，但它仍是我最喜欢的游戏之一。不过，我仍然欣赏那些真正围绕这种曲线设计的游戏。

Like, a moment that this is where, like, everyone was, like, paying attention, dialed in, and, like, you were hyper focused on, like, the big move that someone made. And, like, the games that kinda match this description are ones that all build that into, like, the end of the game, like, the big finish. Right? Whereas by comparison, I think a lot of more standard euros quote unquote, that isn't a big concern and that it that seems to be like a more prevalent design choice. I would say also, you know, unfortunately because even though I sort of like a lot of games like that, like, you know, for example, I would say that the Feast for Odin is a game that does none of this sort of thing, is one of my favorite games, but I still appreciate it when a game really, really builds that curve around that.

这是一个很大的对比。比如你提到的《钟楼血案》，我也在思考这个问题。那款游戏的节奏相当稳定，但它也特别设计了一个高潮结局，只不过游戏时间太长了。

It's a big contrast. Like, you mentioned Blood in the Clock Tower. I was trying to think that about that in the context of this question as well. Like, that game has a fairly steady pace. You know, that game is also quite specifically designed to build to a climactic end, but it's such a long game.

可以说99%的时间里，你都处于同样的紧张状态。相比之下，像《抵抗组织》这样的游戏，任务一个接一个地增加紧张感，然后40分钟内就结束了。它总是有效地冲向高潮。我一直在想的是，那些给你力量曲线的游戏，无论是引擎构建还是像《克梅特》这样的游戏，我认为做得很好，你在力量上不断升级，而游戏通常在人们带着强大的怪物在地图上横行之前就结束了。

And, like, I would say 99% of it, you're kind of in the same sort of, like, tension throughout. But by contrast, something like Resistance, for example, it ratchets that tension up mission over mission over mission, and then you're in and out in, forty minutes. So it's always bolting to this crescendo constantly quite effectively. And I think that's the thing I kept coming back to is this idea of, like, games that either give you a power curve, whether that's like engine building or, you know, Kmet, it was an example for me that I think does this quite well where you are escalating in power and the game is usually over before people just running around their map with all of their powerful powerful monsters.

就像我们玩过的一款完全相反的游戏，《红花瓣》，这是一款汉萨-条顿风格的杰森欧式游戏，我发誓，得分范围是1到3分，或者0到3分。无论你做什么，每个标记只能得0到3分。虽然有一些不错的时刻，但游戏没有高潮。开始和每一轮都一样，整局游戏都是如此。它还行吧。

It's like we played maybe a game that is like the exact opposite of this game that I don't know that we'll ever cover on the podcast, the Scarlet Pimpernel, which is like a Hansa Teutonica Jason Euro game where like, I swear to God, the range of points was one to three or zero to three, guess. No matter what you did, every token you placed could only score you zero to three points. And there were some good moments, let's call it, but there's no ending. The beginning is the same as every round. The rounds are all and it was fine.

我喜欢它。还行吧。但就像全是前戏，你懂我的意思吗？

I liked it. It was fine. It was fine. But it was like, it was all foreplay. Do you see what I'm saying?

哎呀。是的，全是前戏。那《创新》第四版呢？这是另一个话题。

Oops. Yeah. All foreplay. What about okay. Like innovation, right, the fourth edition, right, is a is another topic.

《创新》是升级的大师，但它爆发的地方才是问题的关键，对吧？是的。我对第四版的看法是，它走向了混乱，或者有点过头了。虽然时间不长，但它让你在结束时变得太疯狂或太强大。所以我在想，这是不是平衡的问题？

Like like innovation is the master of escalation but like where it pops is sort of the like question of it all, right? Yes. And like where I'm at with fourth edition is that like it goes to to chaos or it goes just a little bit too far into and it's not too long, but like it it lets you be too wacky or too powerful at the end. And so I just wonder how much of this is like balance. Right?

这是不是只是因为我们给了所有人所有的力量？人们谈论那些让你感到强大的游戏，认为这是你想要的，但平衡就成了限制。如果每个人都强大到疯狂，那这还怎么玩？所以我对设计师是否为此设计很感兴趣。但我不知道，我不是设计师。

How much of this is just if we gave everyone all the power because people talk about games that make you feel powerful as like something that you want, but like balance, you know, becomes the constraint there. Because if everyone is crazy powerful, like, how does this even work? And so I'm just like really interested in this idea that are the designers designing for this? And I don't know. I'm not a designer.

我感兴趣的一个具体游戏是《Rumble Nation》，想听听你们两位在这个语境下的看法。某种程度上，它完美诠释了这类游戏的定义——你花90%时间布局铺垫，最后突然爆发。整个流程就像看着投资如何兑现回报。

One of the things I was interesting a specific game that I was trying to get interested to get your take on in this context was Rumble Nation for both of you because, like, to some extent, that is, like Yeah. The exact definition of this. Right? Which is, like, you spend 90% of the game doing all this play setting, and then it just explodes at the end. So that it just the whole thing runs, you see how it pays off.

严格来说也不完全准确，因为那更像是得分阶段而非其他。但这种设计是否符合我们讨论的理念？毕竟所谓的'乐趣'都集中在最后五分钟——当所有人恍然大悟'原来之前都是为这个瞬间铺垫'时，你会迫不及待想重开一局。

And it's it's not exactly right because that's almost like a scoring phase more than it is anything else. But does that satisfy this idea of, like, because the fun, quote, unquote, part of that is all backpedal to, like, the last five minutes that fits the subscription where because everyone's just like, oh, now I see how that all was gonna go out. You just are eager to like do it again.

确实。关键在于游戏如何模糊化版图状态，从而制造紧张感。比如我们玩普通德式游戏时，尼尔在我相邻区域放了个方块，四个人都立刻明白这意味着他四回合后要对我发动突袭——这种全神贯注时的顿悟时刻才真正令人战栗。

Yeah. There's an element of how the game obfuscates the board state and and how that plays into how tense the game gets, you know? Yeah. Because there are games like we're playing like a bog standard euro whatever, just another euro. But like, Nieland puts one cube in the this area adjacent to my area and all four of us know exactly what it means.

《Rumble Nation》有点像这种暗示的艺术——'等等，这个动作意味着什么？' 但如果玩家不够专注或随便玩玩，这种电光火石的感觉就消失了。只有当所有人都深度投入时，你才会惊呼'这会影响A区域进而波及B区域，我懂你的算盘了兄弟！'

And it's like this electrifying moment where it's like, Nielen is setting up for four turns from now when he's gonna, like, me with this one placement of this one cube. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And like, when everyone is keyed into the game, those moments become electric. And so Rumble Nation is a little bit of this like gesturing gesturing, wait a minute, what does that mean?

这种玩家间的张力是自然涌现还是游戏刻意设计？我认为《Rumble Nation》正是我们讨论的典型案例——它像必须触发的弹簧装置，一旦启动就会引发连锁反应。

But like, if people aren't paying attention or if people are just playing really casually, it doesn't electrify itself. But it's really when everyone is like deeply engaged that you're like, oh, know, this is gonna affect this region which is gonna affect that region which is gonna do this. I know what you're doing bro. And so, yeah. I I mean, you know, whether that player tension is emergent or, you know, whether the game explicitly I think Rebel Nation is exactly what we're talking about because it sort of is a spring that has to go off, but it does go off and then cascades out.

虽然不完全符合你们的描述，但《月面殖民地大屠杀》给了我类似的独特体验。它不仅会积累注意力，更专注于张力的释放——我们在Dice Tower West玩过这款引擎构建游戏，特色在于明知引擎终将毁灭却要竭力维持。

I don't know if it's exactly what you're talking about, but it does sort of give me the same feeling, but in a really unique sort of way because it it not only has attention build, but also it's all about the unraveling of the tension, is Moon Colony Bloodbath.

明白了。

Okay.

某种意义上它与你说的相反——玩家会越来越弱，重点变成苟延残喘。但对我来说，这种'明知辉煌即将终结却仍要奋力攀登'的张力极其刺激。我在展会反复重开就是因为迷恋这种转瞬即逝的巅峰体验——你清楚终点必至，只想尽可能延长手握权力的每分每秒。

It's a game we played at the Dice Tower West. It's all about engine building with the knowledge that your engine is going to, like, be destroyed at the end and it's all about holding on to the engine as much as possible. So in in some ways, I guess, it's like the exact opposite of what you're saying because you're becoming less and less powerful, and it's all about holding on to any power you can. But I think that that tension that becoming powerful, knowing that it's gonna end is like, at least for me, a very, very exciting moment in game. And the reason why I wanted to play it at the convention multiple times because you know you're gonna get there, but you know it's gonna be fleeting, and it's all about just holding on to whatever power that you've amassed as long as possible.

有趣的是它创造了奇妙的共契感：虽然各自经营引擎缺乏直接互动，但当所有人同时意识到'巅峰已过，现在只能死守'时，就会产生类似《Rumble Nation》的集体共鸣。我认为游戏中段那个'我以为我们在做这个？'的错愕时刻正是精髓所在。

But it's funny because you do have that communal feeling because everybody knows that the engines are are breaking down and there's like sort of like everybody's like in it. While they're working on their own thing, sort of like it is in a lot of ways face down because you're working on your own engine and you're not really interacting too much. There is that, like, communal feeling of like, okay, we've hit the peak, now let's hold on tight sort of thing. But that climax in Excuse the middle of that game is I thought that's what we're doing. It is the key to it and why I think it sort of works at least in this regard.

所以核心问题是：设计师Donald Vaquerino是否精确计算了'中场甜蜜期'的时长？要让玩家享受足够长的顺境避免绝望，又必须及时打破平衡以便重启。这就像...就像调整X光机曝光时间般微妙。

And that's the question is, you know, is Donald Vaquerino, you know, a very smart designer? Is he looking at how long you're sitting in the mid game, let's call it, where things are working for everybody. And you want things to be working for long enough that it doesn't feel like despair, but then you have to break down so that you can start again. So it is like like like how long do you sit in that Yes. X-ray.

是两轮？四轮？还是六轮？然后突然就，哦，现在我们开始走下坡路了。我觉得从节奏角度来看，《月球殖民地大屠杀》如此新颖，这正是它的一部分

It two turns? Is it four turns? Is it six turns? And then it's like, oh, now we're on this downward slope. I think that like from a pacing perspective, Moon Colony Bloodbath is so novel that that's that's part of

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为它的新颖性胜过其品质。我个人很希望看到它再迭代几次。但它确实与其他引擎类游戏有着不同的感觉。

I think it's more novel than it is good. And I would love to see it like it personally cranked another few times. But it certainly has a different feel than many other engine y things.

说到唐纳德·瓦卡雷纳，我一直觉得《领土》和其他纯牌库构筑游戏是很好的例子。牌库构筑这个机制就是围绕这个理念设计的，对吧？你会看着一切逐步升级。而在像《领土》这样的优秀牌库构筑游戏中，它确实会在每个人把牌库运转五遍之前结束，明白吗？

Speaking of Donald Vaccarena, I always thought that, like, Dominion is, like, a really good example of this and the other pure deck builders. I mean, deck building, I think, is a mechanic that's built around this idea, right, which is that you're you're watching everything escalate. And in a good deck builder like Dominion, it does end before everyone is just running their deck five times, you know?

没错。其实在《领土》里...我超爱《领土》。我卖了又重买《领土》。整理东西时我刚看了收藏，还有两个未拆封的《领土》扩展包。

Yeah. Well, in Dominion actually, like like, I love Dominion. I've sold and rebought Dominion. I was just looking at collection as I was tearing things down. I think I have two unplayed Dominion expansions.

我感觉自己像在末日储备。懂我意思吗？就像囤了牛肉干，还备着两个未拆的《领土》扩展包。等灾难来临时，克里斯啊，就算停电了，我还有日本主题的《领土》扩展包能撑过艰难时期。

I think I have this like prepper thing. Okay? You know what I mean? Like where it's like, I've got some beef jerky and then I've got two Dominion expansions and shrink for when the happens. Like how many like Chris like the electricity goes out but I'm here and I'm you know, I've I've got a Japanese themed dominion expansion for when times get tough.

明白我说的吗？

See what I'm saying?

是啊，再来几片火鸡肉干就齐活了。

Yeah. And a couple strips of turkey jerky and you're good.

不不不不，兄弟，火鸡肉干可不行。兄弟。

No no no no. Not turkey jerky bro. Bro.

野牛肉？你要野牛肉的？

Buffalo? You want buffalo?

好的，我吃过那个。实际上，好吧。比尔通？行吧。

Okay. I've had that. Actually, okay. Bill Tong? Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

尼兰。那是尼兰。

Nielan. That's Nielan.

比如，谢谢你尼兰带来的比尔通。绝对地。不不不不不。不是玩笑。不是玩笑。

Like, thank you Nielan for Bill Tong. Absolutely. No no no no no no. Not a joke. Not a joke.

嗯，我是说，我想谢谢你尼兰。就像是

Well, I mean, I guess thank you Nielan. Like it's

不是 是的。

not Yeah.

你做过比尔通吗？我觉得

Have you ever made Bill Tong? I think

东西 所以 是的。

stuff so Yes.

是的。是的。不。

Yes. Yes. No.

这是普遍的看法。比尔通基本上就是更好的肉干。

That is a common sentiment. Biltong just the better the better jerky, basically.

比尔通牛肉干比普通肉干更胜一筹，这是显而易见的。不，但对我来说，《领土》基础版的败笔在于，你无法使用所有特殊能力。而就在你的牌组趋于完美时，突然就得开始购买胜利点数，结果牌组又变得糟糕起来。

Biltong is the better jerky. That's clear. No. But Dominion actually for me, the sort of ruining of base Dominion is that like, you don't get to use all the special powers. And then right as your deck is like perfect, it's like, oh, start buying victory points and now your deck sucks again.

尽管如此，我确实想继续重玩《领土》。我认为其部分魅力在于，这不是一个让我牌组拥有30种特殊能力的游戏，而是只能运用其中大约三种的游戏体验。

So this it but but but I do I do want to keep playing, replaying Dominion. And I do think part of that charm is that I'm not just, it's not a game where I have 30 special powers in my deck. It's a game where I get to use, like, three of them.

确实。

Yeah.

每局游戏都给人这种感觉，正是这种体验让我乐此不疲。

It feels like each game. And so that that that does keep me coming back as it were.

值得一提的是，我认为《无限碎片》就是个很好的例子——虽然我不太熟悉《星际领域》，但《无限碎片》对节奏的把握堪称精准。游戏规模恰到好处，逐步积累直至爆发，最终以造成巨额伤害的华丽高潮结束，这种收尾方式总能带来极大的满足感。确实有几款同类游戏很符合我的口味。

And for what it's worth, like, you know, I do think that there are other like, Shards of Infinity is a good example. It's star I I'm not that familiar with Star Realms, but Shards of Infinity where it feels like they've honed that timing exactly right, where it's just like it's just small enough and it just it really just builds and builds and bolts to the point where it just, like, has this big finish where you're just suddenly doing a ton of damage and the game is over in a way that always does feel very, very satisfying. So, yeah, I think there are a few games in that realm that kind of fit the bill for me.

我的意思是，明确地说，我们连续不断地玩游戏。我们不是那种浅尝辄止的团队。对。只是想把这个说得非常清楚。

And I mean, to be clear, you know, we play games back to back. We're not just a one and done Yeah. Group. Yeah. Just wanna make that abundantly clear.

好了，关于‘哎呀全是前戏’的讨论就到这里。如果你有特别钟爱的游戏，但其中精彩部分转瞬即逝，或者你只想多体验那些精彩部分——正是这些让你反复重玩，又或者你觉得那些甜蜜部分太少而烦恼，想要更多‘糖’直接入口，欢迎加入我们的Discord：boardgamebarrage.com/discord，告诉我们这些游戏，或发邮件至boardgamebarrage@gmail.com。非常感谢收听本期播客。

Alright. That is gonna do it for our discussion on oops all foreplay. If you have games that you love but you don't the the good part is is like fleeting or you just wanna do more of that good part and it leads to to replayability for you or or maybe it's annoying and you just want more of that sugar, put it in your mouth. Come to the discord at boardgamebarrage.com/discord and tell us about those games or send us an email at boardgamebarrage@gmail.com. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast.

我们深表感激。感谢Heart Society Music的歌曲《what's on your mind kid》，出自专辑《wake the queens》。感谢Mark和Neelen精心设计了这个我们做成一整期节目的玩笑。就这样吧，后会有期。

It is much appreciated. Thank you to Heart Society Music for their song, what's on your mind kid from their album wake the queens. Thank you, Mark and Neelen for this elaborate joke that we have made as an entire episode. Here we are. So long and goodbye.

再见。再会。

Bye bye. Goodbye.