热门话题：桌游是否已达巅峰？

我不知道。

I don't know.

我认为仍然有机会找到一些成功案例，但我觉得通过众筹帮助新设计师脱颖而出的情况会变得越来越罕见。

I I think there's still a opportunity to find some of those success stories, but I think it's gonna be rarer and rarer that that's where crowdfunding helps us get new designers out there.

是的。

Yeah.

我不愿这么说，但我在这个问题上也逐渐认同了蒂姆的观点。

I hate to say this, but I also have kinda gotten on the Tim bandwagon with this one.

我对市场上项目的数量感到担忧。

And I have concerns about the number of projects out there.

随着时间推移，我发现我发展出了一种技能，我猜大多数桌游玩家在审视这些项目时都会形成这种能力——你能明显分辨出哪些游戏是在真正创新，哪些只是包装得精美、只想卖产品。

And I found that over time, I have developed a skill that I imagine most board gamers develop as they look at these, where you can really tell this is a game that's saying or doing something new versus this is a game where they put together a really slick crowdfunding campaign and they're just trying to sell some product.

现在当我看这些项目时，很明显能感觉到它们都千篇一律、毫无新意。

And I clearly can see that now when I look at these things in so much of it just feels like samey, samey, samey, samey.

因此，这种认为众筹能让你发现一位拥有伟大新点子的天才新设计师，从而彻底颠覆桌游界的想法，正变得越来越不现实。

So this whole idea of this is the way that you're going to find this brilliant new designer who has this great new idea is going to rip open the world of board games with this you know, exciting new thing they're doing.

这似乎并不成立。

That just doesn't seem to be the the case.

我想跟你们提一下《Ada的梦》，因为这款游戏在几个方面都有所体现。

I wanna bring up Ada's dream to you guys because there's this game applies in a couple of different ways.

Chris将来会有一些问题。

Chris has some questions in the future.

我想再提一下这款游戏。

I wanna bring this game up again.

但看看《Ada的梦》。

But look at Ada's Dream.

那是一款Kickstarter上的游戏。

That was a Kickstarter game.

我一年前考虑过做这个。

I looked at doing it a year ago.

我当时觉得：算了。

I was like, no.

这个肯定会浪费我的钱，而且也不会太好玩。

This one's gonna be the one that's a waste of my money, and it's not gonna be that fun.

当它到货时，看起来生产和配送问题相对较少。

When it gets here, it looks like there's relatively few production or delivery issues.

我依然觉得：好吧，随便吧。

I'm still like, yeah, whatever.

我这里稍微听说了一点。

Here I hear about it a little bit.

听起来挺不错的。

It sounds pretty neat.

我们去玩了，我觉得这是2025年制作的最酷的游戏之一。

We go and play it and I think it's one of the coolest games that's been made in 2025.

他们的印刷版还剩几份，但这些正在作为预售品出售，因为他们还在发货中。

There are still a few copies left over from their print run, but they're sold being sold as a a pre release while they're getting their deliveries out.

我想参与这个。

And I want in on this.

我要参与这个预购， Kickstarter 版本。

I'm gonna jump in on this pre order, the Kickstarter version.

这会不会是那种一本都抢不到的独角兽产品？

Is this gonna be the sort of unicorn where there's not gonna be any copies?

谁知道会不会有第二轮印刷？

Who knows if there's gonna be another print run?

即使有，我也没说它会有。

Even if it is, I'm not saying it is.

即使有，那些众筹中不断出现的失败项目，还值得为此冒险吗？

Even if it is, is that still worth all the misses that are happening on crowdfunding?

是的，但我要提一下，Ada's Dream 并不是独立设计师的项目。

Yeah, but can I just mention that Ada's Dream is not an independent designers project?

这是由 Alicat Games 发行的，他们已经成功推出了 22 个 Kickstarter 项目，是一家专业的发行公司，不需要在承担风险前先收我们的钱。

This is published by Alicat Games, which has 22 published Kickstarters out there and is a publishing company and doesn't need to take our money before they take the risk on a project.

就像任何成熟的厂商应该做的那样，他们应该先评估这个产品是否足够好，值得推向市场，然后再生产，最后卖给我们。

Like any established product company should be doing, they should say, is this product good enough to bring out to the market and then make it and then they sell us the product.

我们这个世界的一切都是这样运作的，唯独桌游除外。

That's how everything in our world works except for board games somehow.

但我其实想提一下，我认为独立设计师有机会通过这种方式把他们的想法推广出去，而且这可能是更好的方式，因为我们现在来看一看，对吧？

But I actually wanted to mention that I think that that is the route that your independent designers have an opportunity to get an idea out because, and it's probably a better way to do it because let's take a look at it right now, right?

我们已经说过，有很多成熟的出版商在经营生意。

We already said that there's a whole bunch of established publishers that are trying to run a business.

所以他们需要大量的创意涌入。

So they need a lot of ideas coming in.

而且现在 pitching 的机会也更多了，当然，现在有很多新晋爱好者在提交这些创意。

And there's more opportunities to pitch your Now, obviously there's a lot of new hobbyists that are pitching these ideas.

所以我相信他们必须筛选出大量平庸的作品，但相比五年前或六年前，现在可投的出版商要多得多。

So I'm sure there's a lot of chaff that they have to sort through, but there's a lot of there's a lot more publishers to pitch to than there were five years ago or six years ago.

这些出版商中，许多坚持下来并已成熟的公司，每年只推出几款高质量的游戏。

Those publishers, in many cases, the ones that are sticking around and established are trying to put out a few high quality games a year.

那么，如果一个独立创意被出版商接受，和它通过众筹发布，结果会有什么不同呢？

So what's gonna happen if a independent idea is presented to a publisher and accepted versus if they kickstart it?

如果他们找出版社，首先，游戏会得到专业的开发和测试。

If they go to a publisher, one, it's gonna get proper development and play testing.

与独立开发者在缺乏资源和经验的情况下自行发布相比，它更有可能成为一款更好的游戏。

It is more likely to end up to be a better game than if an independent published it themselves without the resources and the experience of making a game.

它更有可能获得更精良的制作，并吸引更广泛的受众。

It's more likely that it's gonna get a nicer production and it's gonna find a bigger audience.

所以我的观点是，我认为确实，将新想法和令人兴奋的想法推广出去仍然有价值。

And so my point being, I think there, yeah, it is still value in getting new ideas and exciting ideas out there.

如果这是一个有市场潜力的想法，通过出版社来实现可能会更好。

And if it's a marketable idea, it can probably be done better through a publisher.

出版社非常擅长寻找能点燃热情的作品，而不是过去十年里常见的现象：一百位独立设计师在Kickstarter上发布自己的游戏。

And publishers are pretty good at like trying to find the things that will spark a fire, instead of what has been happening over the last decade is that a 100 independent, you know, designers publish their games on Kickstarter.

其中只有五款最终成为令人惊叹的项目，真正融入我们的时代精神并被反复游玩。

Five of them end up being these amazing projects that really like become part of our zeitgeist and and are are replayed.

而另外九十五款则被扔进垃圾堆，或者躺在货架上，人们只想在二手市场上转手卖出，因为根本没人想要这款游戏。

And 95 of them end up in the in the trash bin or, like, they're on the shelf that everybody's trying to resell at the seller's market because nobody wants that game.

没人听说过它。

Nobody's heard of it.

你花了一百美元做这个游戏，最后却只卖五美元，而且你根本不想玩，所以才卖它。

And you're gonna get $5 for the game that you spent a $100 for, but you didn't even wanna play it, so you're selling it.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为，通过出版社的途径仍然是更好的选择。

So I think that there is a still a better pathway to go through a publisher route.

如果没有《Imperium The Contention》在Kickstarter上成功，《杀戮尖塔》还会被制作出来吗？

Does Slay the Spire get made without Imperium The Contention being a successful Kickstarter?

是的，也许不会。

Yeah, maybe not.

不过，如果另一个出版商没有尝试拿走这个IP并加以开发，那倒会让人感到惊讶。

Although it it would be surprising if another publisher didn't end up trying to take that IP and and do something with it.

当然。

Sure.

但你认为它是否像当初那样成功地制作出来了？

But do you think it's made as successfully as it was?

是的。

Yeah.

不知道。

Don't know.

这是个好问题。

It's a good question.

显然，我无法确定这一点。

Obviously, and I I can't know that for sure.

但你确实无法确定。

But You can't know for sure.

那么，所有众筹的其他负面因素，值不值得呢？

And then even so is worth it of all the other negatives of crowdfunding?

我觉得这是个有趣的问题。

I think it's an interesting question.

我们试着把这个类比到顶级电视剧的时期。

Well, we try to pull this back into analogy to the peak TV.

在顶级电视剧时期，产生了大量垃圾内容。

There was a lot of garbage being produced during peak TV.

这一点毫无疑问。

There's no doubt about that.

但最终由观众自己决定哪些是优秀剧集，哪些是较差的剧集。

But it was left up to the individual viewers to decide which of the great shows and which were the less great shows.

话虽如此，观众观看一部电视剧的前期投入，比购买一款桌游要小得多。

Having said that, there is a smaller upfront investment for a viewer of a television show than there is for a board game.

但我不确定这个差异是否大到足以改变这个类比，使其成为错误的类比。

But so I don't know if that is big enough of a difference that it changes the analogy and makes it a false analogy.

但让我在这里提供一些我发现的信息，因为你们之前问过相关趋势。

But but let me throw out here some information that I found because you guys had asked about what the trends were.

我问了ChatGPT。

I asked Chad GPT.

所以，你知道，抱抱我。

So, you know, hold me.

给聊天GPT在这些对话中的分量以相应的重视。

Give this the weight that is afforded to chat GPT in these conversations.

但这是它普遍所说的：在过去几年，从2019年到2025年，项目数量大幅增长，2024年，Kickstarter——当然，它并非唯一的众筹平台——共完成了5300多个桌游的成功筹款活动。

But this is what it was saying generally that over the past several years, 2019 to 2025, the volume of projects has grown tremendously and that in 2024, Kickstarter, which of course is not the only crowdfunding platform, had over 5,300 successful campaigns for board games.

话虽如此，总筹款金额已经变得非常高，但他们也发现，每个项目的平均筹款额在下降。

Now, said that, the total dollars pledged has gotten very high, but what they're also finding is that there are fewer dollars per project.

所以，并不是说项目数量增加的同时，资金也同比上升；实际情况是，众筹的桌游数量在增加，但每个项目的收入却在减少，这又回到了饱和度的问题——我们的市场承载能力是否正逼近极限。

So it's not like the money keep the number of projects keeps going up and the number of dollars going up commensurate with that, you're actually finding the number of board games getting crowdfunded going up, but they're not making as much money individually, which kind of gets back to that point about saturation and what is the carrying capacity in our our we getting closer to that.

再提一点，现在的竞争更激烈了。

And then just one other quick point, that there is more competition now.

曾经，Kickstarter是唯一的选择。

Kickstarter was really the only game in town there for a while.

现在他们有了GameFound。

Now they've got game found.

可能还有其他正在开发中的项目，但竞争确实更激烈了。

There might be other things out there too that are on in the pipeline, but there's more competition.

是的。

Yeah.

为了更准确地理解这个数据，我还想知道有多少比例的游戏未能筹资成功，以及这个失败率是否也随着成功项目的增加而上升。

For that stat to be a little more relevant, I'd like to also know what percentage of games went unfunded or unsuccessful and if that rate increased also as the successful ones did.

这样对比会更好。

So that would be a nice comparison.

你所说的这一切，仍然表明这种承载能力模型可能存在上升趋势。

Everything you said there still represents sort of a potential upward trend in this carrying capacity sort of model.

我还想知道，这些增加的项目，尤其是成功的项目中，有多少是独立设计师做的。

Well, I'd also like to know how many of those projects that have increased, especially the successful ones were actually independent designers.

对吧？

Right?

这些项目到底是独立开发者，还是那些更能营销、能通过Kickstarter提前预售作品的大公司？

Like, were these actually indies or were these big publishers that are like, I can market better and I can I can get prepaid for my work on Kickstarter?

这似乎是大多数大型众筹项目至少目前的趋势。

And that seems to be the trend at least for most of the bigger Kickstarters.

所以我认为这实际上是一次非常有趣的对话，它让我想到，也许我们将来应该专门进行一次关于众筹的讨论，深入探讨这些数据，更加系统地分析。

So I think this is actually a really interesting conversation and it suggests to me maybe at some point we wanna do a crowdfunding discussion that is really gonna get into some of these numbers in a little bit more of a significant way.

但显然，这个问题一直萦绕在我们心头。

But clearly, this is something that's on our mind.

它正在影响整个行业。

It's something that's affecting the industry.

它也在影响这个爱好。

It's something that's affecting the hobby.

但我确实想把话题拉回到更广泛的内容上，而不仅仅是众筹。

But I do want to bring it back to some more general stuff, not just the crowdfunding.

关于承载能力这一点，我之前在讨论这个话题时就想提一下，但后来我们转到了其他方向，而我正看到这一变化正在急剧发生。

And on the point about the carrying capacity, I was wanted to mention before when when we were talking about this, but then we kind of went off in other other directions that I am seeing this change dramatically.

但这并不意味着现在每个人都在玩桌游。

And that doesn't mean that everybody is playing board games now.

但突然之间，你开始在以前从未见过的地方看到桌游。

But all of a sudden, you're seeing board games in places you weren't before.

亚当提到了一些现在积极进军桌游市场的绝佳场所，而且它们表现得相当不错。

Adam mentioned some really great venues that are going after the board gaming world now, and they're doing pretty well.

据我了解，这实际上已经是一个相当成功的市场细分领域。

That has actually been a pretty successful set market segment from what I understand.

此外，你还能在大众媒体中更多地看到它们的身影。

There's also you're seeing them more in mass media.

我的意思是，电视节目里，比如不久前《周六夜现场》就有一个《车票到站》的片段。

I mean, are television shows, Like, there was a ticket to ride segment on SNL not too long ago.

我忘了是哪个电视节目了，但里面有人在玩《翼展》。

I forget which TV show it was, but there was people were playing wingspan.

说到《翼展》以及一款游戏如何改变整个行业，前几天我跟妻子的表弟一家共进圣诞晚餐，他们根本不是桌游玩家。

And speaking of wingspan and how one game can change an entire industry, I was, having Christmas dinner the other day with my wife's cousin and his family, and these are not at all board gamers.

他们以前只玩过我们小时候那种家庭式桌游，从没玩过别的。

They've never played a board game other than, you know, the family style board games that we grew up with.

但他们说，在东部地区，他们和家人一起玩《Wingspan》，而这些人原本根本不会接触桌游爱好。

But they were saying they had in Back East, and they were playing wingspan with other members of their family, people who would have otherwise have no introduction to hobby board games.

我看到它在越来越多的地方出现，这让我觉得桌游爱好正变得越来越普遍。

And I'm seeing it pop up in more and more and more places that suggest to me that hobby board gaming is becoming a more normalized thing.

想想塔吉特百货，现在你能在塔吉特买到《Everdell》。

And you think about Target, which now you can get Everdell at Target.

你能在塔吉特买到各种各样的真正桌游爱好作品。

You can get all kinds of, you know, real hobby board games at Target.

因此，这极大地改变了愿意将玩桌游作为晚间娱乐的人数，这个群体正在迅速增长。

And so that is really changing the number of people that are open to the idea of playing board games as their their night of fun is growing rapidly.

当然，希望这并不意味着会涌现出更多劣质游戏，试图迎合这些新玩家，但市场的承载能力显然在上升。

Now, hopefully, that doesn't mean that, you know, there's gonna be more crappy games coming out there gonna, you know, try to try to appeal to all those people, but the carrying capacity is clearly going up.

我能提一个小小的数据吗？

Can I just mention one little statistics?

我，嗯，再说一遍，这只是一个轶事，我是从别人那里听来的。

I I well, again, this is an anecdote, and I I got this secondhand information.

但是，你知道吗，那个在北菲尼克斯的漂亮商店——Gamers Guild，我带你们去过的。

But, you know, Gamers Guild, that beautiful store in Northern Phoenix that I took you guys to.

对吧？

Right?

空间很大，非常漂亮，零售区很大，游戏区也很棒，而且游戏酒吧还会把食物送到你桌上，所有这些都让你觉得会让更多人开始玩桌游。

Big, beautiful space, huge retail space, great gaming space, but also the gaming pub serves food at your table, all this stuff that you would think is gonna drive board gaming to be more commonplace.

我听说有个人说他认识那里的老板。

I was told by somebody who says they know the owner there

嗯。

Mhmm.

那个店每个月都亏钱。

That that store loses money every month.

哇。

Wow.

他们之所以打算继续经营下去，是因为大部分收入——相当可观的收入——来自他们的在线商店。

And the reason why they plan to keep it open and they will keep it open is that they make most of their money, a significant amount of revenue through their online store.

Gamers Guild 也是一家在线零售商。

Gamers Guild is a online retailer as well.

因此，他们能够通过这种方式弥补运营这家店铺的亏损和风险。

And so they're able to kind of cover the the law they cover the risks of running that store, the losses with it.

他们还可以把它当作仓库使用。

And they can use it in a way like a warehouse.

他们可以在那里存放库存。

They can keep inventory there.

他们可以以更接近建议零售价的价格销售库存，而如果在实体店销售，价格可能会更低。

They can find a way to sell inventory a closer to MSRP price that they might otherwise sell lower at their store.

因此，这样做对他们来说有一定的价值，并且有助于打造他们的品牌。

So there's some value to them to doing it, and it helps create their brand.

这也有助于提升品牌，我认为店主只是热衷于参与这个爱好，喜欢拥有这家店，融入当地的社群等等。

It helps and it I think because the owner is just passionate about being a part of the hobby and they like having that store there and being a part of the community that's there and stuff like that.

但问题是，我不认为游戏酒吧或游戏主题酒吧会成为这个爱好真正增长的方式。

But the the problem is is that I don't think gamer pubs nice gamer gaming pubs is gonna be the way that the hobby really grows.

尽管当你看到这些地方时，确实会让这个爱好显得更被大众接受一些。

Although it does it does, like, start to to, you know, make it a little bit more of a, I would say an accepted hobby when you see some of these places.

但不幸的是，当我们试图在南加州寻找场地时，发现这样的地方仍然非常少。

But unfortunately, as we discovered when we were trying to find a venue in Southern California, there are just not that many places still.

只有少数几个城市可能拥有支持这种模式的文化和受众。

There are a couple of cities that maybe have the type of culture and the type of audience that would support that.

谁知道那些店铺经营得怎么样呢？

And who knows how successful those stores are doing.

Mox Boarding House 真的在盈利吗？

Is Mox Boarding House actually making profit?

还是说，这只是某位热衷于这个爱好的人，用他过去在其他行业赚来的对冲基金收益来支持这个爱好？

Or is it somebody who's just passionate about the hobby and is willing to do this with their hedge fund investment money that they made in a different life and then came in and brought it into this hobby.

我也不太清楚。

I don't really know.

但我觉得这种商业模式似乎不太可能足够成功来

But I I I doesn't seem like it's something that's actually gonna like that business model, I don't think is gonna be successful enough to be

这种爱好的发展方式。

the the way that the hobby grows.

我希望是这样的，蒂姆，因为我在Gamers Guild上最近找到了几样东西。

Well, I hope it is, Tim, because Gamers Guild is where I found a few things recently online.

我正试图减少在亚马逊这样的大型电商平台购物。

And I'm trying to shift away from stuff like Amazon and wherever the big market stores.

如果我能支持像Gamers Guild这样存在于亚利桑那州的场所，我愿意多花点钱，这样当我去斯科茨代尔和贝西时，就能去那里玩任何想玩的游戏，顺便聚会。

Because if I can support spaces like Gamers Guild that exist in Arizona, I'm gonna do that and pay a little extra premium so that when I do go out to Scottsdale and Busy, we can head over there and play whatever we want and meet up.

所以希望这类模式能流行起来，让人们改变购买和投资的方向。

So hopefully, models like that catch on and people will shift where they purchase and where they invest their money.

每一次购买都某种意义上是对该公司的投资。

Every purchase of something is sort of an investment in that company.

那就去Gamers Guild购买吧，鼓励更多这样的场所涌现。

So do it with Gamers Guild, encourage more spaces like that to pop up.

现在，克里斯，在我们转向另一个话题之前，我想再回过头来看看关于这种爱好达到顶峰后，是会开始下滑，还是会持续提升产品品质的问题，以及其中的风险。

Now, Chris, before we move on to another topic, I wanted to circle back to the idea of whether where to peak and what are some of the risks of bringing the, of it coming back downhill or whether it's gonna keep escalating as far as the quality of the products that we're getting in the hobby.

我还有另一个想法，我觉得这会引发一些有趣的讨论。

And so I had one other idea and I think this will lead to some interesting conversation.

我认为我们之所以达到顶峰，原因之一在于桌游整体质量的持续提升。

And that is one of the reasons we're at a peak, believe is because of the ongoing improvement and overall improvement in quality that we've seen in board games.

我觉得这让桌游变得更加令人兴奋。

I think it makes board games more exciting.

人们对桌游的兴趣更高了，而这种情况一直在发生。

People are more interested in them and that's kind of, that's been happening.

但我认为，游戏整体质量的提升也可能带来风险，可能导致我们不再看到那些独特、有趣且富有创意的作品和艺术设计。

But I think one of the risks of the overall quality of games and where this could lead to a kind of a step away from the really exciting and interesting and unique productions and artwork that we've been getting.

这种风险就是使用生成式AI来制作桌游的插画。

And that is the use of generative AI to make the artwork for board games.

我认为，公司使用这项技术的成本远低于聘请艺术家，因此我们很可能会不再看到像以往那样独特、富有创意的艺术作品。

I think it's so cheap for companies to use that technology versus hiring an artist, that there's a lot of risks that we're gonna stop seeing the unique, interesting art as far reaching as we have been.

未来可能不会再出现那种看起来很业余的设计了，因为业余出版商不再会推出看起来像是用Microsoft Word或Visio画出来的作品，因为他们现在可以更容易地制作出更精美的设计。

There's a probability that there will be no more like super amateur looking designs anymore because the amateur publishers are not gonna be putting out things that look like they drew them in Microsoft Word, or Visio or something like that, because they can make these things easier.

所以这会稍微改变一下。

So that will change a little bit.

但我担心许多大型出版商和企业会依赖生成式AI来制作插图，这将逐渐削弱我们一直看到的那些富有远见的精彩艺术作品。

But I am afraid that many of the bigger publishers and businesses are gonna lean on generative AI for their artwork, which is gonna start to take away some of the exciting visionary art that we've been seeing.

我们不可能通过生成式AI创造出像凯尔·费隆那样的艺术家。

We're not gonna get a Kyle Ferron out of generative AI.

我们得到的不会是新的凯尔·费隆，而最终只会是凯尔·费隆风格的复制品，对吧？

We're not gonna get a Well, what we will get is copies of Kyle Ferron eventually, right?

AI会开始模仿凯尔·费隆的风格，但下一个真正的卡尔·法林又会是谁呢？他永远没有机会被看见，因为走另一条路太便宜了。

It's like the AI will start to try to look like Kyle Ferron, but who's that next Cal Farrin that won't ever get to you know, will never see their artwork because it's too cheap to go a different direction.

所以我认为，我们目前看到的许多伟大而独特的版图艺术，尤其是我所钟爱的那些，很可能会逐渐消失，取而代之的将是更加千篇一律的插图。

So I think there's definitely a risk that at least a lot of the great artwork that we've been seeing and unique artwork that I love in board games is gonna fade a bit, and you're gonna start to see a more generic artwork coming forward.

有趣的是，蒂姆，你正好说到这个，因为我正打算进入我的闪电问答环节。

Well, funny that you should say that, Tim, because I was about to get us into a our my lightning round of questions.

而很多内容其实都围绕着我们之前那种关于意识的梦幻式对话。

And a lot of this is kind of you know, we've had this very dream of consciousness kind of conversation.

但我认为我们已经触及到我今天真正想探讨的一些问题。

But I think that we're getting at some of the things that I really wanted to touch on today.

因此，我原本打算问的一个问题是：你认为当前这一爱好领域的发展轨迹存在哪些问题？

And so in one of the questions I was going to ask was, so what problems do you see with the current trajectory of the hobby?

我认为，蒂姆，你刚才指出的这一点，听起来至少是你对这个问题的一个答案，对吧？

And I think, Tim, what you just pointed out there is probably it sounds like at least one of your answers to that question, right?

你认为生成式人工智能会对这一爱好造成问题。

That you think that generative AI is going to be a problem for the hobby.

我理解得对吗？

Am I reading that right?

但我认为它也可能有潜力，对吧？

I think it has a potential too, right?

有些出版商已经表明立场，说：我永远不会使用生成式人工智能。

There are some publishers that are taking a stance saying, I will never use generative AI.

我会一直聘请艺术家。

I'll always hire artists.

这很好。

And that's great.

但我确实认为，Awakened Realms 已经明确展示了这一点，他们很乐意使用它。

But I I do think and Awakened Realms has has clearly demonstrated this that they will gladly use it.

他们甚至不会说他们不会使用它。

They they won't even say they're not gonna use it.

因此，目前一些最大的众筹游戏都在大量使用它，而且它们确实开始显得千篇一律。

And so some of the biggest crowdfunded games right now are heavily using it and they do start to look generic.

因此，越来越多运营商业的大型出版商将做出这一决定。

And so more and more of the bigger publishers that are running a business are gonna make this decision.

他们会朝这个方向发展。

They're gonna head in that direction.

所以，是的，我认为这对爱好来说是一种风险。

So yeah, I say it's a risk for the hobby.

我当然认为这对艺术家来说是一种风险，但这并不意味着这对爱好来说是对是错，但我确实认为，由于这一点，我们将会看到这个爱好中出现更少令人兴奋的艺术作品。

I would say it's obviously a risk for artists, but that's not to say whether that's right or wrong for the hobby, but I do think that we're gonna see less exciting artwork coming from the hobby because of it.

是的，我想你或许可以认为，他们使用这种生成式AI是为了降低成本。

Yeah, I guess maybe you could see it as a way for them to cut costs they're doing with this generative AI.

但如果他们在艺术上都要削减成本，那他们还在哪些方面削减成本呢？

But if they're having to cut costs in their art, what else are they cutting costs on?

他们的游戏难道不够好，无法支撑聘请真实艺术家的费用吗？

Are their games not good enough to support the costs of a real artist?

最近很多Awakened Realm的作品玩起来并不怎么样。

So a lot of Awakened Realm stuff lately has not been great to play.

它们只是被大量生产出来。

It's been pumped out.

有点儿

Kind of

感觉他们是在用ChatGPT来编写规则和规则手册，对吧？

feels like they're using their, like they're using ChatGPT to create the rules, the rule books, right?

或者说是规则，而且他们

Or the rules and they're

用他们的AI算法生成器来制作桌游。

using their AI algorithm maker to make the board games.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yep.

没错。

Yep.

所以，亚当，你对这个爱好本身或未来可能存在的风险有什么看法吗？

So, Adam, do you have any thoughts on the broader question of what are potential risks within the hobby or risks for the hobby in the future?

我认为其中一个问题是，希望这个过程能自我纠正。

I think one of the problems is hopefully in the process of self correction.

这个爱好中存在很多浪费，或者可能有很多浪费。

There's a lot of waste in the hobby or there can be a lot of waste in the hobby.

因此，我试图远离那些大量使用塑料的生产商。

So I've tried to shift away from producers that are using tons and tons of plastics.

当然，我今晚已经提过五十次《沙丘战争》了。

Of course, I've mentioned Dune War for Iraqis 50 times already tonight.

所以，你知道，我其实自己也这么做。

So, you know, I still do it too.

再说一遍，我唯一的理由是希望这些塑料制品不是一次性使用的。

Again, my only justification is hopefully they're not single use.

你知道，你们在保留这些塑料制品。

You know, you're holding on to these plastics.

但总的来说，还是有很多浪费。

But in general, there's a lot of waste.

但我认为我们正在看到更经济的生产方式。

But I think we're seeing more economical production as well.

你看像《艾达的梦》这样的游戏，只有几个骰子。

You look at games like Ada's Dream and they have just a few dice.

里面没有很多小雕像，而且除了骰子是塑料的，其他所有组件都是木制的。

There's not a lot of minis moving around and I think the components are all wood in there except for the dice, which are plastic.

然后他们正试图转向这种再生材料，融入木材。

And then you have they're trying to shift towards this rebirth type of material where they're incorporating wood.

我不确定，我真的不知道这些东西对环境是否健康。

I don't I don't again, I don't know how healthy any of this stuff is for the environment.

关于Ada's Dream，我还能说什么呢？

And then what else I can say with Ada's dream?

迷你模型不多，但你有这些打孔卡。

There's not too many minis, but you have these punch cards.

对吧？

Right?

一种触感有趣的小玩意儿。

Just a tactile, fun little thing.

它不是迷你模型，但很酷。

It's not a mini, but it's cool.

它看起来像你可以用一个小芯片插入某种老式木制图灵机的东西。

It looks like something that you could use a little chip that you could insert into some old wood Turing machine type of thing.

所以，我希望看到更少巨大而浪费的生产，更多这种经济上聪明的资源利用方式。

So you I'd like to see less gigantic wasteful production in more of this economic clever use of resources.

对吧？

Right?

你怎么才能赢得桌游？

How do you win a board game?

聪明地利用资源。

Clever use of resources.

我也希望在生产中看到同样的做法。

Same thing I wanna see here in production.

别浪费。

Don't be wasteful.

用正确的方式去做，你仍然可以实现干净整洁的生产，而不用大量笨重的塑料。

Do it the right way and you can still do a nice clean production without tons and tons of plastic chunky.

只要动脑筋，发挥创意。

Just get clever, get creative.

这个建议很好，管理员。

That's a good call, Admin.

我真的很希望看到一种趋势，即在运输和包装中减少一次性塑料的使用。

I I've really like to see the trend where they're using less of the single use plastic for shipping and wrapping purposes.

例如，许多出版商不再对游戏进行热缩膜包装，而只是在角落贴上几个小标签来固定它们。

So for example, a lot of publishers are no longer shrink wrapping their games, but they're just maybe putting a couple little sticker labels on the corners to keep them together.

在内部包装材料方面，我开始看到越来越少不必要的塑料袋，比如那种你撕下来用于保护卡牌的塑料袋。

The the interior packing materials, I'm starting to see less just unnecessary unnecessary plastic bags as far as like the ones that you would rip off some cards.

现在更多使用的是小纸带或可生物降解的袋子。

Now it tends to be little paper straps or little biodegradable bags.

虽然这些不是长期存储的好方案，但作为运输和生产环节的临时方案很好，用完后丢弃也不会造成额外的浪费或浪费石油来生产它们。

Not that those are good long term storage solutions, but they're good just shipping and kind of production solutions that then you throw them away and it it hasn't caused extra waste or wasted oil in order to to create them.

这些是一些不错的趋势。

So those are some nice trends.

这个建议很好，亚当，希望这种趋势能继续下去。

That's a good call, Adam, and hopefully that does continue to to go in that direction.

我同意你们两位的看法。

I agree with both of you guys.

我想附议你们说的每一点。

I wanna second everything that you said.

我认为应该大大减少浪费。

I think that there should be far less waste.

我自己的想法经历了巨大转变，从喜欢大型微型模型，到对它们感到有些反感。

I have had a huge migration in my own mind from loving the huge minis to being a little bit grossed out by them.

我的意思是，我仍然有时喜欢玩它们，但我也很喜欢一套精美的木制棋子，可以进行丝网印刷或精心制作。

I mean, I still do like playing with them sometimes, but I also really like a nice set of wooden meeples that can be screen printed or nicely done.

我觉得越来越多的游戏开始使用非常精美的木质和纸板组件，我认为这很棒。

I think we've seen lots more games coming out with very nice wooden and cardboard components, and I think that's great.

蒂姆，我也同意你对人工智能问题的看法。

Tim, I also agree with you about the AI issue.

我特别担心的是，一旦AI艺术变得如此容易获取，即使你有一个像Awaken Realms这样能负担得起聘请真实艺术家的公司或游戏，你又为什么要这么做呢？

One thing that I worry about particularly there is once AI art becomes so readily available, even if you've got a game or a company that could support using a real artist like Awaken Realms, Why would you?

如果你能轻易地使用几乎免费的AI艺术，那除非玩家开始主动要求，否则你为什么要费这个劲呢？

If you can get away with using AI art that's all but free, then why would you bother doing that unless the crowd, unless the people out there buying the games start demanding it.

所以我认为，作为消费者，我们真正需要做的是强烈要求游戏必须使用真正的艺术作品。

So I think that's something that we actually have to do as consumers is really demand that there be actual art.

看到Awaken Realms也出现这种情况真让人难过，因为他们一直以来都以卓越的制作和极其出色的美术著称。

It's also sad to see that happening with Awaken Realms just because they're a company that has had such a history of wonderful production and some absolutely amazing art.

事实上，在我的游戏室里，有一款游戏被我摆在架子上，当作一件真正的艺术品展示。

In fact, in my game room, I've got one game that's off the shelf and being displayed as a piece of actual artwork.

那就是Awaken Realms出品的《长城》的封面。

And it's the cover of Great Wall by Awaken Realms.

关于我认为最大的风险是什么，我会回到产量这个问题上。

I'm gonna say for my my answer to what the biggest risk is, I'm going to go back to volume.

我认为产量过高会带来一些真正的问题。

I think volume can be a real problem for a few reasons.

其中一个原因是，如果产量太大，就很难找到真正优质的作品。

One of them is that if you've got too much volume, then it becomes too difficult to find the real quality stuff.

我想这给了我们职业保障，因为人们必须持续听我们，才能知道哪些游戏值得玩，哪些不值得。

I guess that gives us job security because people have to keep listening to us to find out what's worth playing and what's not.

但我不希望为了找到更好的游戏，还得在一堆垃圾里翻来覆去。

But I don't want to have to sift through a lot of garbage in order to get to the better games.

我希望讨论的是，这款游戏很棒，而那款游戏甚至更好。

Want to have I want to be talking about this game is great and this game is even better.

而不是说这款游戏是垃圾，那款游戏还不错。

Not this game is garbage and this game is great.

我认为这只会稀释一切。

And I think that just dilutes things.

我认为这最终会给所有玩家造成糟糕的处境，因为你必须付出更多努力才能找到真正值得玩的游戏。

I think it ends up creating a bad situation for all gamers because you have to work harder to find things that are actually worth playing.

这也有问题，因为如果有些新接触这个爱好的人，这就是我不断提到承载能力的原因——随着爱好规模扩大，越来越多的人加入了进来。

It's also problematic because if you have people that are potentially new to the hobby, and this is why I keep going back to the carrying capacity is that as we grow as a hobby, we're getting more and more people into the hobby.

如果你第一次接触桌游时遇到的是非常平庸的作品，那很可能不会吸引你；但如果你接触到的是真正高质量、极其出色的游戏，情况就完全不同了。

And if your first exposure to board hobby board gaming is something that's really mediocre, then it's probably not going to draw you in as opposed to if you get exposed to a really high quality, really exceptional game.

显然，这会是一个更有吸引力的选择。

Obviously, that's going to be a much more attractive thing.

它更有可能让你融入这个爱好，成为优质桌游的支持者和消费者。

And it's more likely to pull you into the hobby and make you supporter and a consumer of good board games.

所以我认为这是我们必须要找到某种方式应对的一个特定问题——要么设法解决，要么冒着不解决而导致爱好受损的风险。

So I think that is a particular problem that we have to find some way to either you know, deal with or, risk not dealing with it and having the hobby suffer from it.

所以我想再问你们一个问题，让我们以一个积极的结尾收尾——我们刚才谈得有点消极，现在我们要以一个更积极的方式结束，针对你们每个人。

So one other thing that I want to ask you guys and we'll leave this on a high note, we just ended on a very low note, we're going to end on a higher note now for each of you.

如果你能改变当前爱好中与我们讨论的内容相关的某一件事，你会改什么？

If you had one thing that you could change about the hobby right now related to the the kinds of things that we've been talking about.

如果你能挥动魔杖，说一件事你想改变，那会是什么？

If you could say one thing that you would change, wave your magic wand, what would that thing be?

我认为我最希望看到的是，桌游爱好者们能多玩一些游戏，少买一些游戏。

I think the thing I'd love to see for the hobbyists in the in the hobby are more playing of games and less just buying games.

换句话说，我认为这就是解决方案，也可能解决我们之前讨论的许多问题：让价格稍微上涨一点。

In other words, I so here's, I think the solution to this, and it may be the solution to a lot of the issues that we've been talking about, and that is let prices go up a little bit.

让产品价格上涨到足以维持优质产品的水平。

Like let the product prices go up enough to sustain great products.

然后人们可能会说：嘿，这是一款昂贵的产品。

And then people will hopefully say, hey, this is an expensive product.

我应该真正使用我买的东西，而不是因为它们都在打折，只要40美元就买六款，结果却一款都没玩过。

I should probably actually use this thing that I purchased and not purchase six more because they were all on sale for $40 and I could get all these games, but you'll never get them played.

所以我认为这是一种消费者心态的转变，但我看不到这种转变。

So I think it's kind of a it's a consumer mind shift that I I I don't see it.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我和我们在Discord上的朋友聊天，也关注社交媒体上那些热爱收藏这些游戏的人。

Like, I mean, I I chat with our you know, with all of our friends on Discord, and I watch other people in social media who just love collecting these things.

而这种收藏行为——愿意为任何数量的游戏付费，却不关心游戏的质量、是否喜欢，或者是否愿意再次游玩——可能是我们所讨论的许多问题带来的最大影响。

And and the collection, the willingness to pay for any number of games without concerning yourself with the quality of the game or whether you like it or whether it's a game that you wanna go back and replay again is probably the biggest result, you know, like impact of of a lot of what we're talking about.

出版商很喜欢这样。

Publishers love this.

出版商喜欢你购买游戏这一事实，因为他们本质上只是在卖给你一些会堆在架子上的东西，这意味着他们可以再卖给你另一件也会堆在架子上的东西。

Publishers love the fact that you are buying game, that they basically are just selling you something that is gonna sit on a shelf because that means they can sell you something else that will sit on a shelf.

他们不在乎你是否用其他东西占用了你的时间，因为他们没必要在乎。

They don't care if you're taking up your time with something else because they don't have to.

我真希望看到一些爱好者。

So I'd love to see a hobbyist.

我真希望桌游玩家能成为更清醒的消费者，不是因为这种行为造成的浪费，而是因为这是对你生命的浪费。

I'd love to see board gamers just be more conscious consumers of board gamers, not because of the waste it's causing, but because it's a waste in your life.

你在浪费自己的钱。

It's you're you're wasting your money.

你在用那些你根本得不到乐趣和价值的东西浪费自己的心智空间。

You're wasting your mind space with things that you're not actually getting the fun and the value out of it.

这个爱好是关于乐趣的，伙计。

This hobby is about fun, man.

玩桌游是件有趣的事。

It's like playing board games is fun.

这可能是一种非常令人兴奋的体验。

It's a it it can be such an exciting experience.

看着我书架上的桌游并不有趣。

Looking at board games on my shelf is not fun.

至少对我来说是这样。

At least it's not for me.

我知道有些人有收藏者的心态，他们仅仅通过观赏盒子就能获得快乐，觉得这就值得了。

I know that there are some people that have a collector's mindset where just the the joy they get out of looking at boxes, it they feel justifies it.

也许你可以印一些这些盒子的艺术图案，挂在墙上，而不是购买那些你永远不会玩的大盒子。

Maybe print up some artwork of those boxes and, like, hang it on your walls instead of purchasing this big box that you're never gonna play.

这就是我认为能改善这个爱好的方式。

That's my thought of something that would would would improve the hobby.

顺便说一下，克里斯，我得提一下，我今天注意到，整个这一集我一次都没笑过，我想知道这是话题的原因，还是因为我们录得早，我还没喝任何东西。

By the way, I, you know, I I have to mention, Chris, one thing I noticed today is that I haven't laughed once in this whole episode, and I'm curious I'm curious whether it's it's the topic or the fact that we're recording earlier, and I haven't had anything to drink yet.

所以我不知道这是好是坏，但在这期《桌游热评》中，你可能再也看不到我们这么严肃了。

So I don't know if that's good or bad, but probably the most serious you'll ever be able to take us in this one episode of Board Game Hot Takes.

这是一个相当严肃的学术话题。

It was a pretty pretty hefty academic topic.

我的意思是，没错。

I mean, that is, yeah.

我没笑。

I I I didn't laugh

如果我们把它调出来呢？

at the What if we pulled it up?

大概不会。

Probably not.

好吧，听众会告诉我们答案。

Well, I the listeners will tell us.

看。

There.

瞧，我们现在在笑呢，所以就是这样。

See, we're laughing right now, so that there you go.

我要结束了

I'm going to end

就你提到的这一点，蒂姆，你可以把它和组建一个桌游小组联系起来。

Just on your note, Tim, you could tie that into having a board game group.

定期的桌游小组很重要，也许这种爱好能激励你组建一个桌游小组。

A regular board game group is important, and maybe the hobby incentivizes having a board game group.

这样你就可以避免和小组成员在购买游戏时产生冲突。

That way you can deconflict the games at which you are buying with your group.

如果你的桌游小组有三四个玩家，大家分摊开支，那你花一份钱就能试玩三款游戏。

You can try three games for the price of one if you have, you know, three or four players in your game group and they're spreading the wealth.

或者，如果你是那个独自买游戏的人，抱歉。

Or if you're the one guy that's buying the games, I'm sorry.

但希望你有一个像我们这样的小组，我们并不会都买同样的游戏。

But hopefully, you have a group like us where we don't all always buy the same games.

如果我们知道其他人会买，那我们就会说，好吧。

If we know one of the other people is getting it, then we'll say, okay.

酷。

Cool.

据我所知，我们的收藏重叠的并不多。

We don't have that many overlaps in our collection as far as I'm aware.

我们总共300款游戏，可能只有五款是重复的。

I think maybe five total with 300 games total in our collection.

如果我在这方面有误，请告诉我，但能有你们这样的群体真好。

So let me know if I'm wrong about that, but it's nice having a group like you guys.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得，如果我们住得更近，重叠的会更少。

And I would I would guess we'd have even less overlaps if we live close together.

这确实是我对待本地游戏群体的方式。

And that is definitely an approach that I take with my local game group.

如果我经常一起玩的朋友有一款我特别喜欢的游戏，我通常不会再去买，除非我觉得还有另一个群体值得我定期与他们分享这款游戏。

If one of my friends that I play with regularly has a game that I love, I probably am not gonna buy it unless I think there's a different group that I wanna share that with on a regular basis.

但没错，我觉得这很有价值。

But yeah, I think that's valuable.

没错，也许这就是关键，亚当。

Yeah, maybe that's the key, Adam.

也许这真正关乎的是更多社群，更多桌游玩家聚在一起。

Maybe it's really about more community, more board gamers getting together.

说得好。

There you go.

这样就不用那么多人去买那些不会被经常玩的大收藏了。

Less people have to buy bigger collections that they are not gonna get played.

所以你这么说很有趣，因为原本我对这个问题的回答是：我知道这听起来可能有点天真，也许有点像大家本来就想这么做，但关键是多玩桌游，推广一下，让更多人加入这个爱好。

So it's funny that you said that because my answer to this question was gonna be, I know maybe a little Pollyanna ish, maybe a little bit like everybody wants to do this anyway, but it's play more board games, proselytize, get more people into the hobby.

我说的推广，是指要委婉地做，别强迫别人，但想想所有那些爱好，人们多么喜欢谈论和宣传自己的爱好。

And I when I say proselytize, I mean, do it tactfully, you know, don't beat people over the head, but think about all the hobbies out there and how much people like to talk about and advertise their hobbies.

我认识的那些高尔夫球爱好者，都非常喜欢聊高尔夫。

The people I know that are golfers love talking about golf.

他们总是想聊高尔夫。

They wanna talk about golf all the time.

他们总想问你有没有兴趣去打高尔夫，之类的。

They wanna ask you if you wanna go golfing, this, that.

体育运动非常流行。

Sports is huge.

我的意思是，人们经常参与各种体育活动。

I mean, people do sports stuff all the time.

喜欢艺术的人、喜欢音乐的人，会去参加音乐会，邀请朋友一起。

People who like art, people who like music, then go to concerts, invite their friends.

在我们的爱好中，我们有一种观念，觉得因为这是个有点宅的爱好，所以必须低调行事。

In our hobby, we've got this idea that because it's sort of a nerdy hobby that we have to be really quiet about it.

但我不这么认为。

And I don't think we do.

我认为我们应该以一种温和的方式为我们的爱好做推广，因为我们热爱它。

I think that we ought to tactfully proselytize for our hobby because we love it.

我们应该告诉别人这有多棒，有多好玩。

We should be telling people how great it is, what a fun time it is.

如果他们不想尝试，那就别强迫他们。

And if they don't want to try it, you know, don't beat them over the head about it.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，我觉得这是对的。

I mean, I think that I think that's true.

但我们玩得越多，把越多新人带入这个爱好，和越多资深爱好者一起玩，就越能真正开展我们的市场调研，了解哪些方面好、哪些方面不好，或许还能解决一些其他问题——我的意思是，我们在这里讨论的所有缺点，其实都可以通过消费者提出需求、用消费投票来解决。

But the more that we're playing games, the more that we're bringing new people into the hobby and the more that we're playing with the established hobbyists, the more we can really do the kind of market, our own market research, we can understand the things that are good, we can understand the things that are bad and maybe fix some of these other issues like, I mean, everything that we're talking about here, all downsides we're talking about are things that can be fixed by consumers demanding things and voting with their dollars.

不要AI艺术。

AI art out, not paying for that.

我愿意为创作真实艺术作品的艺术家付费。

I'm paying for artists that create real works of art.

我愿意为这个花钱。

I'll pay money for that.

劣质的翻拍游戏，我不会为此花钱。

Crappy retread games, not paying money for that.

我会为那些有新意、有趣、以新颖方式组合元素的游戏花钱。

I'm gonna pay money for games that do new things, interesting things, put things together in interesting ways.

因此，这引出了我想说的最后一点：多玩游戏的另一个方面。

And so that leads me to one last thing that I think is an another aspect of playing more games.

尝试不同的游戏。

Try different games.

我知道很多玩家都喜欢这样做。

I know a lot of gamers love to do that.

喜欢玩不同于你平时玩的其他游戏，但很多人并不这样。

Do love to play other games, different games than the ones you're used to, but a lot don't too.

我认为，接触新游戏不仅能让你成为更好的玩家，还能让你成为更明智的玩家，更好地判断哪些游戏值得购买，哪些不值得。

And I think that exposing yourself to new games not only makes you a better gamer, it makes you a more informed gamer and makes you better able to understand which things are worth buying, which things are not worth buying.

而且，希望你能发现一些你从未预料到的东西。

And hopefully there you're likely to find something that you never would have expected.

这很有趣。

That's a lot of fun.

是的。

Yeah.

说得好，克里斯。

Great points, Chris.

我觉得你已经说到了点子上。

And I think you said it.

我们有机会改变这个爱好的优点，并持续向上发展。

We have the the opportunity to change what's good about the hobby and and, keep and keep going up the slope.

别让这成为顶峰。

Let's not make this the peak.

让我们让它继续成长，成为一个更好的爱好。

Let's make it continue to grow and be a better hobby.

但作为消费者，我们才是拥有发言权、能够带来改变的人。

But but we as consumers are gonna be the ones that have the, you know, that have the input, can make the change there.

出版商不会做出正确的决定，除非我们明确提出我们的需求。

The publishers are not gonna make the right decisions here unless we we ask for what we want.

除非我们让更多人走出来，一起玩游戏。

And and unless we are getting people out there and playing games together.

很好的观点，克里斯。

So great call out, Chris.

我喜欢你的想法。

I love your love your ideas there.

喜欢你的乐观态度。

Love your optimism.

让我们行动吧。

Let's do it.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我认为在这次对话结束时，我们可能对是否已达到游戏的巅峰尚未达成一致，但我可以肯定地说，我们都同意，现在正是游戏的黄金时代。

And so I think at the end of this conversation, we may not have agreed on whether or not we are at peak gaming, but I think I can safely say that we all agree that we are in a great time for gaming right now.

这可能不是巅峰，但我们正处在一个游戏的黄金时代。

It may not be the peak, but we are in a golden age of gaming.

这样说公平吗？

Is that is that fair?

是的，克里斯。

Yeah, Chris.

我认为我们正处于或接近增长曲线的首次导数峰值。

I I think we're at or near maybe the the first derivative of the growth curve.

所以，我们正看到增长速率的峰值，而这种增长率我认为将会放缓。

So we're seeing the peak rate of growth, if you like, and that rate of growth, I think, will taper off.

它会有起伏，但没错，我认为我们在某种意义上正处于或接近峰值。

It'll have surges and valleys, but, yes, I think we're at or near a peak in a sense.

我所说的峰值，再对我的数学系听众重复一遍：是桌游爱好增长的首次导数的峰值。

A peak of that, I'm going say it again for my math majors out there, the peak of the first derivative of the growth of the board game hobby.

克里斯，我们可能同意这一点，但我知道，我想跟一些不认同我们的社区成员谈谈，他们认为桌游爱好曾经有过更好的时代。

Chris, we may agree with it, but I do know, and I want to talk a little bit to some of our community members who don't agree with us, that they believe that there was a better time in hobby board gaming.

关于这一点，我想说两点。

And I got two things to say about that.

我所说的是，我们有一些听众，通常是那些在这一爱好中浸淫更久的爱好者，他们喜欢说，最好的时代是欧洲风游戏稀少、制作质量低下、但高互动性游戏众多的时期。

And what I'm talking about is we've got a number of listeners, typically hobbyists that have been in the hobby longer that like to say the best era was when euros were short, productions were low quality and there was a lot of high interaction games out there.

对此，我想说，那些游戏现在依然存在。

And to that, I wanna say there are still those games.

如果你对这类游戏感兴趣，那就去寻找它们，或者玩玩在UBAS时代创作的数百款这类游戏。

And if that's what you're excited about, go find those games or play many of the hundreds of them that were created in the, what UBAS era.

但现在，针对不同游戏偏好的人，有了更多的选择。

But now there are so many options for people that have different tastes in games.

如今，这个爱好不仅对喜欢轻型游戏的人更友好，也对喜欢厚重、漫长、深思型游戏的人更友好。

And and now the hobby is more approachable to people that like those games, but also people that like heavier longer longer thinkier games.

也就是说，喜欢轻型、少思考型游戏的人。

So people that like lighter, less thinky games.

所有这些选择，以前从未像现在这样丰富过。

Like, all of those options exist in a way that they've never existed before.

所以，去找到你喜爱的游戏吧，别抱怨现在是糟糕的时代，因为这些游戏确实存在。

So, just go find the games that you love and don't don't complain that it's a worse time because they they exist out there.

它们依然在那里。

They're still there.

别因为一些最受欢迎的游戏不符合你的口味而感到沮丧。

Just, you know, don't get frustrated because some of the most popular games are not the style that you like.

属于你风格的游戏依然存在。

Your style games are still there.

蒂姆，我完全同意你的观点。

Tim, I wanna completely agree with you.

这正是我之前写下的内容。

That's one thing I had written up.

目前桌游界的选择简直太棒了。

The options currently available in the hobby are fantastic.

你说到点子上了。

You nailed it.

我只是想接着刚才的话说一下。

I just wanted to piggyback on that.

有这么多选择，无论你找什么类型的游戏，都能找到。

So many options, so many different different type of games for anything you're looking for.

谢谢你们两位和我一起度过了这没有笑声的一个小时，我認為這是一個非常有趣的主題。

Well, thank you guys for engaging in a laugh free hour with me on what I consider to be a very interesting topic.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢你带来这个话题，克里斯。

Thanks for bringing it, Chris.

这是一次很有趣的对话。

This was this was a fun chat.

我们的节目内容丰富多彩。

And and so so we we have variety in our episodes.

有的节目是给喜欢乐趣的人看的，也有的节目是给不喜欢乐趣的人看的。

There are the episodes for people that like fun, and there are the people that don't like fun.

现在他们在我们的播客中也有东西可以发现了。

And now they have something to find in our in our in our podcast as well.

开玩笑的。

Just kidding.

好了。

Alright.

谢谢大家。

Well, thanks everybody.

感谢你们本周一直陪伴我们。

Thanks for sticking around with us this week.

希望你们过了一个快乐的新年。

Hope you had a happy new year.

这将是我们在2026年发布的第一集。

This is gonna be our first episode dropped in 2026.

提醒一下，几个月后，BGG金 Geek 奖即将揭晓，我们期待你们的提名。

Just a reminder that in a few months, the BGG Golden Geek Awards are gonna be coming up, and we're looking for your nomination.

所以从现在开始留意一下，接下来我会更多地提到这个话题。

So just keep an eye open now that you'll hear me talking about that more coming up here.

如果你还不是BGG用户，请前往boardgamegeek.com注册一个免费账户，这样你就可以为我们提名并投票，争取今年最佳播客的黄金 geek 奖。

If you're not a BGG user, go on there, create a free user account on boardgamegeek.com, and then you're set up to nominate us and vote for a win in this year's Golden Geek Awards for best podcast.

我们开始吧。

Let's get it going.

蒂姆这么早就开始拉票了。

Tim campaigning early.

我觉得那些投票不是要到四月才开始吧，老兄。

I don't think those are until, like, April, man.

那可是四个月后的事，不过——

That's, like, four months out, but-

早点投票，多投几次。

Vote early and often.

赶紧去投，早点投。

Go go go early.

继续说。

Go off.

就是这样。

There you go.

好的。

Alright.

我们下周再见。

Until next week.

大家保重。

Take care, everybody.

再见，各位。

Bye, everyone.

拜拜。

Bye bye.

哦，我真想上厕所，但这场对话实在太精彩了，我根本不想走。

Oh, I wanna bring I have to go pee so bad, but I'm freaking loving this conversation.

我想提一个特定的游戏。

I have a specific game I wanna bring up.