这家公司计划在脑机接口领域超越Neuralink

德勤美国首席执行官Jason Grazadas表示，领导者必须将网络安全视为技术和文化的当务之急。

Leaders must make cybersecurity a technological and cultural imperative, says Deloitte US CEO Jason Grazadas.

恶意行为者的复杂程度正在加剧，这使得企业投资于强大平台而非独立系统变得至关重要。

The level of sophistication from bad actors is only intensifying. That's put a huge premium on enterprises investing in robust platforms versus standalone systems.

他指出，人工智能对于防护至关重要。

AI, he says, is critical for protection.

它正帮助组织更快地检测威胁，这对于分析海量数据以识别人类可能遗漏的模式非常关键。

It is preparing organizations to be able to detect threats faster, which is critical to analyze vast amounts of data to identify patterns that humans might miss.

访问德勤官网deloitte.com，了解安全如何助力创新驱动。

Visit deloitte.com to learn how security can help drive innovation.

Tim，你认为当前最火的电视节目是什么？

Tim, what do you think is the hottest show on television right now?

在我家，现在最火的是Apple TV的《人生切割术》。

Well, in my house, it is Severance on Apple TV.

如果我告诉你，《离职》中的脑机技术真实存在，只不过不是由邪恶企业掌控，而是一家心怀善意的初创公司在推动，他们视之为帮助数百万无法与世界互动之人的未来技术。

What if I told you that the brain tech in Severance exists in real life, but instead of being owned by an evil corporation, it is being pioneered by a benevolent startup which sees it as the future of helping millions of people who are otherwise unable to interact with the world.

这很有希望，但听起来很昂贵。

That's hopeful, but it sounds expensive.

哦，确实会很昂贵。我们今天的播客就要深入探讨这个话题。脑机植入将在2025年成为热点，未来一年可能会有数十人接受这种新型植入。

Oh, it will be expensive. We're gonna get into it in today's pod. That's next. Brain implants are going to be hot in 2025. Dozens of people could get a new kind of implant in the next year.

这是根据今天嘉宾的说法。如果他的公司在不远的将来如愿以偿，你可能也会成为其中一员。

That's according to today's guest. And if his company gets its way in the not too distant future, you might join them.

这个阵列本身厚度仅22微米，相当于人类头发直径的五分之一。整个系统贴合在大脑表面而不侵入脑组织，能实时生成极其丰富的神经活动图像。

The array itself is 22 microns thick, so that's a fifth of the width of a human hair. And the system sits conformally on the surface of the brain without penetrating into the brain and creates this incredibly rich picture of neural activity in real time.

这位是精密神经科学公司的联合创始人兼CEO迈克尔·梅杰，该公司将负责把这些装置植入人脑。他有个相当雄心勃勃的目标：让严重瘫痪患者获得心灵感应和隔空取物等能力，至少是通过计算机实现的等效功能。

That's Michael Mager, the co founder and CEO of Precision Neuroscience, the company that will be installing these things in people's heads. He has a pretty ambitious goal: giving patients with severe paralysis powers like telepathy and telekinesis, or at least their computer enabled equivalents.

精密神经科学正在研发一种称为脑机接口的技术，这种接口能让人仅凭思维就能控制计算机。

Precision neuroscience is developing something called a brain computer interface, and a brain computer interface enables people to control computers using only their thoughts.

他们面临着激烈的竞争，包括埃隆·马斯克的Neuralink以及由杰夫·贝索斯和比尔·盖茨支持的Synchron。我们本周报道称，Synchron正与苹果合作开发脑机接口设备的使用方式。这无疑是我们节目中呈现过最具科幻色彩的内容，但它真实存在。美国食品药品监督管理局近期已批准了Precision新技术的核心部分。欢迎来到我们期待已久的未来——它终于到来了。

They've got plenty of competition, including Elon Musk's startup Neuralink and Synchron, which is backed by Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates. We reported this week that Synchron is also working with Apple to develop ways for people with brain computer interfaces to use its devices. This is easily the most science fiction y thing we've ever had on this show, but it's real. The US Food and Drug Administration recently approved a core part of Precision's new technology. Welcome to a future we've long been promised, and it's finally here.

脑机接口的商业化进程。《华尔街日报》出品，我是蒂姆·希金斯。我是克里斯托弗·米姆斯。这里是《风云人物》节目，您将听到《华尔街日报》报道的知名企业领袖们的真知灼见。

The commercialization of brain computer interfaces. Interfaces. From the Wall Street Journal, I'm Tim Higgins. And I'm Christopher Mims. This is bold names, where you'll hear from the leaders of the bold named companies featured in the pages of the Wall Street Journal.

今天我们要探讨：人类准备好接受脑部植入物了吗？

Today, we ask, is humanity ready for brain implants?

感谢您来到位于纽约市华尔街日报总部演播室。在开始前我想告诉听众：我们将讨论被称为'脑部手术'的话题，但不会涉及过多技术细节或血腥内容——这可不是为你准备的蒂姆。虽然这不是《深渊》或《离职》剧集，但这正是贵公司的业务范畴。

Thank you for joining us in studio in New York City at the heart of The Wall Street Journal. And before we get going, I just wanna let the listeners know. We are going to talk about a little thing called brain surgery, but we don't wanna get too technical or too gory. This is not for yourself, Tim. Well, this is not an episode of the pit or severance, but that's what your company does.

明白吗？直接在大脑中植入本质上就是计算机的设备。不过在深入探讨前，能否先描述下具体形态？我猜应该不是塞个老式MacBook进去吧？

Alright? Digging right into the head to insert what is essentially a computer. But before we dig in your business, can you help describe what that's like? We're not talking about sticking a big old MacBook in there, I presume.

没错。Precision Neuroscience正在开发名为脑机接口的技术，它能让人们仅凭思维控制计算机。正如您所说，这是一种医疗植入设备。虽然听起来像科幻小说，但它确实非常真实。事实上，全球顶尖学术机构已对此进行了二十年验证——瘫痪患者植入脑机接口原型后，已经能完成惊人壮举。

Right. So precision neuroscience is developing something called a brain computer interface, and a brain computer interface enables people to control computers using only their thoughts. It is a medical implant, as you as you note. And this sounds like something out of science fiction, but it is it is very real. Actually, you know, there's been twenty years at this point of validation in some of the leading academic centers in the world where people who are, you know, generally paralyzed have been implanted with prototype versions of brain computer interfaces, and then they've been able to do amazing things.

他们能用思维控制电脑光标、玩电子游戏、创作数字艺术、发送短信和电子邮件——这一切都仅凭思想完成。

They've been able to control a computer cursor with their thoughts. They've been able to play digital video games. They've been able to create digital art. They've been able to send text messages and emails. Again, all using only their thought.

但迄今为止的概念验证还仅限于学术界研发的原型设备，它们无法实现规模化生产。因此直到今天，这项技术影响过的生命不足百人。二十年里仅惠及不到百人，影响力实在微乎其微。我们Precision Neuroscience公司和少数几家企业正在做的，就是将这项已知有效的技术产品化——使其足够可靠以通过FDA严苛的监管流程，实现规模化生产，最终让数十万乃至数百万潜在受益者受惠。

But the proofs of concept so far have really been prototype type devices developed in academia. They can't be manufactured at scale. And so as a result, this technology has, up until today, touched fewer than a 100 people's lives. So in twenty years, fewer than a 100 people, it's it's really very little impact. And so what we are doing at Precision Neuroscience and what a few other companies are doing is taking this technology that we know works, productizing it so that it can you know, that's robust enough to go through the the rigorous FDA regulatory process, and so that it can be manufactured at scale, and and ultimately reach the hundreds of thousands and eventually millions of people who stand to benefit.

所以这个项目的目标是帮助那些患有神经损伤或疾病的患者？

So so the goal here is to help people who have maybe neurological injuries or diseases.

是的。最初的目标人群是重度瘫痪患者。而且

Yeah. The the initial target population is people who are severely paralyzed. And

重度瘫痪，是指要让他们重新行走吗？

Severely paralyzed, meaning you're gonna have them walk again?

不。我们最终希望实现这点。但现阶段能确定的是帮助那些丧失手臂和手部功能，因而无法像常人那样操作电脑、手机等电子设备的群体。

No. Eventually, we hope. But in the first instance, what we know we can do is give people who are unable to use their arms and hands, and as a result, can't operate computers or phones or other digital devices in the way that we take for granted.

也就是所谓的'闭锁综合征'患者？比如渐冻症或其他类型的瘫痪？

So they're, quote, unquote, locked in. So it's ALS or it's other types of paralysis?

不能言语属于这类患者中的一部分。有些重度瘫痪者完全丧失沟通能力。这项技术将让他们仅凭思维就能操作电子设备，重新融入数字生态。正如你所说，导致重度瘫痪的原因通常是脊髓损伤、渐冻症等退行性疾病，以及某些使大脑皮层完好却中断脑体连接的中风类型。

In suggests an inability to speak, and that is a sub portion of this population. Some some people who are severely paralyzed also are unable to communicate at all. And what this technology is gonna enable them to do is to operate digital devices using only their thought and really rejoin, you know, sort of a a digital ecosystem. The the reason that people are severely paralyzed, as you mentioned, is is generally spinal cord injury, certain kinds of degenerative diseases like ALS, and then certain kinds of stroke, which leave the brain, the cortex intact, but disrupt the connection between the brain and the rest of the body.

那么这个流程是怎样的？需要做些什么来搭建这个系统？

So what what's what's the process like? What's involved in getting this set up?

嗯，不同公司有不同的方法

Well, different companies have different approaches to

你们的方法。你们具体采用什么方法？

Your approach. What's what's your approach?

最佳方案

The best approach

因为我要说，昨晚米姆斯一直说'老兄，你得看看这个视频，简直像脑部手术'。而我昨晚吃了意大利面，根本看不进去，所以最后没看成那个视频。

Because I will say this. Mims last night was like, dude, you gotta watch this video of this thing. It's like brain surgery. And I it was like, I had spaghetti for dinner last night, and that just was not gonna happen. So I didn't see the video.

那让我们用语言描绘一下这到底是个什么场景吧。

So what let's paint a picture verbal picture of what this is like.

我和本·拉帕波特以及马克·赫蒂克、迪米特里·帕帕吉奥吉欧共同创立了Precision公司。但本才是我们正在设计的这套系统的真正架构师。他既是神经外科医生，又拥有电气工程博士学位，完全理解我们正在处理的人体解剖结构。

So the I I cofounded Precision with Ben Rapaport as well as Mark Hetick and Dimitri Papagiorgio. But Ben, you know, is really the architect of the system that we're designing at at Precision. Ben is a neurosurgeon. He also has a PhD in electrical engineering. He understands the anatomy that we're dealing with.

他理解大脑的电生理特性，为此筹备创立这家公司已倾尽毕生心血。作为Neuralink的联合创始人之一，他见证了另一种实现方式。

He understands the electrical nature of the brain, and he's been preparing to start this company his whole life. He was also one of the cofounders of Neuralink, so has has seen it being done a different way.

而Neuralink是埃隆·马斯克的版本。我们会深入探讨。但首先，具体如何搭建这个系统？它不像塞张DVD进播放器那么简单对吧？

And Neuralink is Elon Musk's version of this. We'll get into that. But first so, okay, how do you set this thing up? It's not as simple as just putting a DVD and a DVD player. Right?

没错。本质上，大脑是个电生理器官。我们要做的是以空前的高分辨率测量这种电活动。将传感器电极安全稳定地植入大脑来检测电信号，存在多种技术路径。我们的系统基于一种称为皮层表面阵列的技术。

That's right. So so, basically, the brain is an electrical organ. And so what we do is measure that electrical activity at a higher resolution than has ever been done before. There are different approaches to how to get sensors, electrodes to measure the brain's electrical activity into the brain in a safe and stable way. Our system is based on something called a cortical surface array.

它附着在大脑表面而不造成损伤。这是种极薄的薄膜，厚度不及透明胶带的宽度。在我看来它有点像——

So it sits on the surface of the brain without damaging the brain. It's a very, very thin film. It's, you know, less than the width of a piece of Scotch tape. And It kinda looks like to me,

像水果卷糖。

it looks like a fruit roll up.

确实。虽然我们不会这么形容——

Sure. It's not not how we describe

重点在于它尝起来像不像？

it. Does it taste like one? That's the question.

在微电极阵列上，我们配备了24个微型铂电极，用于捕捉大脑的电活动。其中大多数电极直径仅为50微米。为了给你一个直观的概念，这大约相当于单个神经元的大小。阵列本身厚度为22微米，相当于人类头发宽度的五分之一。该系统贴合地置于大脑表面，无需穿透大脑，就能实时生成极其丰富的神经活动图像。

And on the microelectrode array, we have a 24 tiny platinum electrodes that are picking up the electrical activity of the brain. Most of them are 50 microns in diameter. So just to give you context, that is roughly the size of an individual neuron. And the array itself is 22 microns thick, so that's a fifth of the width of a human hair. And the system sits conformally on the surface of the brain without penetrating into the brain and creates this incredibly rich picture of neural activity in real time.

这是因为在大脑外部（但仍在颅骨内部）可以观察到大量活动。

And it's so this is because there's so much activity visible from the outside of the brain, but inside the skull.

它位于颅骨内部，直接与神经组织接触。这种方法的优势之一在于能够覆盖大脑表面的大片区域，而不会对大脑造成渐进性损伤。该技术的某些竞争方案，以及实际上推动这一产业形成的部分学术研究，都是基于穿透式电极——即那些会刺穿神经组织的微电极，通过损伤神经组织来建立大脑与电极之间的接口。

It's inside the skull and is interfacing directly with neural tissue. And part of the advantage of this approach is it's it's able to cover large areas of the brain surface without doing any incremental damage to the brain. Some of the competing approaches to this technology, and actually, you know, some of the sort of academic work that created this as an industry were based on penetrating electrodes. So microelectrodes that actually sort of puncture the neural tissue and and in so doing, you know, damaged neural tissue in order to create this interface between brains and electrodes.

这些就像细小的毛发一样扎入大脑。

And these are like little hairs that kinda go into the brain.

最初版本更像是金属丝。是的。而Neuralink系统的理念是将金属丝概念改良得更柔软、更具柔韧性。

The original version of this is more like wires. Yeah. And the Neuralink system is based on taking the wire concept and making it softer and and more pliable.

我们刚听说过去二十年里，只有不到100人接受了这种头部植入技术。但Precision Neuroscience公司希望让数百万人常规化接受脑部植入。他们究竟要如何实现？

We just heard how in the past twenty years, fewer than a 100 people have had this technology installed in their heads. But precision neuroscience wants to make it normal for millions of people to get brain implants. How the heck are they gonna do it?

为了让需要的人群受益，要知道这是医疗设备，应该也将会纳入保险报销范围。

In order to reach the people who stand to benefit, you know, is a medical device and should be and and will be reimbursed by insurance.

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

企业巨头正花费数百万游说华盛顿政客制定偏袒政策，导致小企业纷纷倒闭。他们试图推行有害的信用卡强制令，这将抽走地方信用合作社和社区银行的资源，使主街企业更难获得信贷，让您的家庭更难支付汽油和食品等日常开销。请敦促国会保护您的信用卡权益，反对杜宾-马歇尔信用卡强制令。

Corporate mega stores are spending millions lobbying DC politicians on one-sided policies that send small businesses tumbling. They want to enact harmful credit card mandates that take resources away from your local credit union and community bank, leaving Main Street businesses with less access to credit, making it harder for your family to pay for everyday goods like gas and groceries. Tell Congress to guard your card and oppose the Durbin Marshall credit card mandates.

由电子支付联盟赞助。

Paid for by Electronic Payments Coalition.

既然我们已经了解了运作原理和机制，请带我看未来。这里的宏大图景是什么？长期愿景是怎样的？

Now that we understand how this works and the mechanics of it, take me into the future. Like, what is the bigger picture here, the long term vision?

我们今天的重点是解决一个非常现实的医疗需求。Precision是一家医疗保健公司，我们成立的宗旨是为人类健康带来积极改变。我们的做法是帮助那些目前瘫痪在床、足不出户、与社会隔绝的人群。这种状态对心理健康、就业选择等都有严重影响。我们要让他们重新获得对电脑的无缝控制。这项技术的学术原型已能让人们控制电脑光标并执行点击操作。

What we're focused on today is addressing a very real medical need. You know, Precision is a health care company, and we were founded to make a meaningful positive difference to human health. The way that we're doing that is to allow people who are right now, you know, paralyzed, generally homebound, isolated. It has, you know, severe implications in terms of mental health, in terms of people's ability to have a job if they choose, and give them back seamless control of computers. The academic prototype versions of this technology have allowed people to, you know, control computer cursors, maybe do a click.

我们的抱负远不止于此。说到无缝控制电脑，我们设想的是谷歌或微软Office这类生产力套件，或是复杂精美的视频游戏和通讯系统。通过实现这些，我们有望建立真正有意义的事业，为人类健康做出积极贡献。初期聚焦于严重瘫痪、无法使用手臂和双手、甚至无法言语的患者，未来将扩展到有运动功能障碍但不完全瘫痪的人群，比如中风导致单侧肢体活动受限的患者，或严重关节炎无法正常使用手机键盘的患者。

Our ambitions are a lot greater than that. When we think about seamless control of a computer, we think about, you know, a productivity suite like Google or or Microsoft Office or, you know, really rich complex video games and communication systems. So we think by doing that, we have the potential to create a really meaningful business and do something very positive to human health. Initially focused on people who are severely paralyzed, who can't use their arms and hands, and in some cases can't speak, but over time extending to people who have some form of motor deficit, but less severe than total paralysis. So think about people who perhaps have had strokes, and so, you know, they have partial use of one of their arms and hands, people who have, you know, very severe arthritis and are unable to use a phone or a a keyboard in the way that you or I can.

仅在美国，这类人群的数量至少就达数百万。

This is a population that is at least single digit millions in The United States alone.

那么你们的目标是最终让保险公司为此买单吗？

And is your goal that eventually insurance will pay for this?

是的。我认为可及性至关重要，必须由保险支付。我认为这有一个非常健全的运作模式，我们在报销机制上并非另起炉灶。但为了让真正需要的人受益，要知道这是医疗器械，理应且必将纳入保险报销范围。

Yeah. I I think access is critical, and it it has to be paid for by insurance. I think there's a really robust model for how this should work, and we're not reinventing the wheel here in terms of reimbursement. But in order to reach the people who stand to benefit, you know, this is a medical device and should be and and will be reimbursed by insurance.

所以完成这个项目需要花费数十万美元？

So this is something that's gonna cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to get done?

嗯，我们估计这些由不同公司开发的产品，从概念到上市的总成本大约在2.5亿到5亿美元之间。

Well, you know, the we estimate that each of these products being developed by separate companies are gonna cost somewhere between 250 and $500,000,000 to take from concept to to market.

这是研发成本。不是针对个人的费用。没错。

For for the development. That's not the individual person. Exactly.

单个产品的成本不会高达2.5亿美元，但你说得对，这与边际成本近乎为零的药品不同

They're not gonna cost $250,000,000 on a unit cost, but but to your point, you're absolutely right that unlike, for example, like a pharmaceutical product where the marginal cost is effectively zero

对。

Yeah.

这些设备每台要花费数千美元，所以它们有实际的单位成本。为了证明这一切的合理性，为了证明开发这些系统所需的资金投入，以及建立一个能够将利润再投资于该技术其他应用的可持续产业，我们需要获得六位数的补偿。

These devices will cost, you know, several thousand dollars each, so they have real unit costs. In order to justify all that, in order to justify the capital that's required to develop these systems and then to create a sustainable industry that is able to reinvest profits in additional applications of this technology, we need reimbursement, you know, in the 6 figures.

但我想我必须想象能获得某种行动能力，也许有一天能够行走。未来的护理成本对人们来说可能会降低。所以某种程度上这些可能会相互抵消。

But I guess I have to imagine getting some form of mobility, perhaps someday being able to walk. The cost of care going forward is probably less for folks. So it's kind of maybe some of that washes out.

没错。我们正在进行一项全面的健康经济分析，但人们不一定知道的是，当一个人瘫痪时，他们通常会被迫退出劳动力市场。严重瘫痪者的就业可能性比健全人低60%。而且通常还会让一名护理人员也退出劳动力市场，这名护理人员往往是家庭成员。所以当你考虑到人类福祉的代价，以及让两个心智完全健全的人退出社会的财务成本时...

That's right. I mean, we're working on sort of a a holistic health economics analysis, but, you know, what what people don't necessarily know is that when when someone's paralyzed, you know, they are generally taken out of the workforce. So people who are severely paralyzed are 60% less likely to be employed than than people who are able-bodied. But but often, it will also take a caregiver out of the workforce, and and usually that is a family member. And so when you think about the the the human well-being cost, but also just the societal and financial cost of taking two people who are totally sound of mind.

这只是大脑与身体之间的连接被切断了。让两个原本心智完全健全的人退出劳动力市场，这个代价确实相当大。因此我认为这项技术不仅有强有力的财务支持，也有非常充分的道德理由获得补偿。

And it's just there's been a disruption between the connection between the brain and the body. Taking, you know, two otherwise totally sound of mind people out of the workforce, it's it's really considerable. So I think that there's, like, a very strong moral justification for for reimbursement for this technology as well as strong financial backing.

那么我们距离这项技术真正作为'消费品'推出还有多远？当然不是指柜台商品。但我们看到最近FDA批准了一些相关设备。我们的时间表是怎样的？

So how how close are we to this really rolling out as a, quote, unquote, consumer, not a consumer product? You're not gonna get it over the counter. But, you know, we've seen some recent FDA approvals for related devices. So what's our timetable?

我们已获得FDA首次批准，这对Precision公司乃至整个行业来说都是令人兴奋的里程碑。这是向前迈出的一大步，使我们更接近产品商业化以及我们追求的广泛临床影响。这次获批的是可植入30天的设备，并非我们正在同步研发的永久性植入物，但临时植入物也能实现一些有意义的应用。

Well, we received our first FDA clearance, which is a really exciting milestone for Precision and I think for the industry. This is a major step forward. I think it takes us closer to commercializing the product and to to the widespread sort of clinical impact that we seek. The FDA clearance is for a device that is implantable up to thirty days. So it's not the fully implanted permanent implant that we are that we are working on in parallel, but there are some, you know, meaningful things that we can do with a with a temporary implant.

永久性植入物还要等多久？

Long until the the the permanent one?

我认为在未来五年内，你将看到这项技术从Precision等公司触达的人数呈爆炸式增长。我想，你知道，对于那些过去二十年来一直关注这个行业的人来说，产生某种程度的疲惫感是可以理解的。要知道，这个领域曾多次出现虚假的曙光。部分原因在于，要将这项技术发展成产业，确实需要一些关键技术支持，比如微电子技术——既要高性能又要低功耗，还需要配套的监管体系准备就绪，而FDA在这方面确实走在了前面。此外，还需要解码软件的配合。

I think in the next five years, you are gonna see an explosion in the number of people that this technology touches from Precision and from others. I think, you know, there's an understandable maybe fatigue among some people who have been following this industry over the past two decades. You know, there have been various false dawns. Part of that is some of the enabling technologies that are really required to turn this into an industry, like the microelectronics, very high performance, very low power, you know, regulatory regime that's ready, and the FDA has really led the way on this. And then, you know, software to decode.

我们每分钟为每位患者生成超过十亿个数据点。目前已完成39例植入手术。想想看，二十年前这些系统在没有复杂软件支持的情况下，甚至能以最原始的方式运作，这已经产生了海量数据。但如今，显然这完全是另一回事了。正是由于这些关键技术的突破和资本的可获得性，我们现在正处在见证这项技术真正产业化的临界点。

We're generating more than a billion data points per patient per minute. We've done 39 implants so far. And so that is just an enormous amount of data to think that these systems were able to work even in a rudimentary way twenty years ago without the use of sophisticated software. But but today, I think that's obviously a a completely different ballgame. And so because of some of these enabling technologies and because of capital availability, we are now at the cusp of really seeing this turn into an industry.

让我们回到这个刚获FDA批准的设备。它只能植入体内三十天。这意味着什么？为什么时间这么短？要达到更长的植入期需要实现哪些条件？对吧？

So let's just go back to this device that just was approved by the FDA. It can only be in there up to thirty days. So what does that mean? Why the little amount of time, and what needs to happen to get to that bigger amount of time? Right?

是的。Precision目前有两条并行路线：一是开发我们期望患者能长期佩戴——最好是永久性植入的全植入设备，就像该领域其他公司的产品一样。但与此同时，Precision在BCI行业拥有独特优势——

Yeah. So so there are two parallel tracks at Precision. One is we are developing the fully implanted permanent implant that we hope, you know, people have for many, many years and hopefully forever, just like the other companies in the space. But in parallel to that, Precision has the opportunity, and this is unique within the BCI industry. BCI.

抱歉，BCI是指脑机接口（Brain Computer Interface）——这个优势让我们能更快进入市场，这源于我们系统固有的安全性：它不会损伤大脑，且具有可逆性。

Sorry. Brain Computer Interface, excuse me, for the acronym, that allows us to get to market much faster, and that's because of the intrinsic safety of our system, because it doesn't damage the brain, because it is reversible.

那个水果卷的概念

That idea that the fruit roll up

只是轻轻覆盖在

is just kinda sitting on top of the

没错，水果卷是可以移除的。而且

That's right. The fruit roll up can be removed. And

而如果你要把导线插入大脑，那是一个更具侵入性的过程。

Whereas if you're sticking the cords into the brain, that is a much more invasive process.

因此，精密系统通过FDA的510k途径获得审批资格。我们已开发出一款与永久植入体并行的产品，实质上是相同的技术——用你的比喻来说就是同样的水果卷，连接着电子设备和计算机，由算法解码神经活动。但不同于完全无线且永久封装在生物相容性密封包内的方案，有线系统设计为在一定时间内可被取出。

So the precision system has access to what's called the five ten k pathway through the FDA for for approval. And we have developed a product that is in parallel to the permanent implant, which is effectively the same thing. It's the same fruit roll up in your analogy connected to electronics and and connected to a computer where an algorithm decodes neural activity. But instead of all being wireless and fully encapsulated in hermetically sealed packages that are biocompatible and in the body forever, the wired system is designed to be explanted within a certain amount of time.

'取出'听起来比'拔出来'更文雅些？移除。拽出来？'拽'可不是外科手术手法，谢天谢地。

Explanted sounds like a nice way of saying pulled out? Removed. Yanked out? The yank is not a surgical technique. Thank god.

好吧，那么听起来你正在

Well, so okay. So it sounds like you're

在这两条

in this two

两条路径上，因为有人可能觉得30天在宏观尺度上很渐进，但听你的意思这是迈向最终目标的重要一步。我想知道，你们距离那个终极目标还有多远？就是多久才能实现不必每月更换这个设备？

two pathways because some might think, okay. Thirty days, that seems pretty incremental, like, in the grand scheme of things, but it sounds like you're saying this is a big step towards this other thing. And I guess I wonder, okay, how close are you to that other thing? Right? How close to, you know, not not having to get this thing replaced every every month or so?

从功能角度来看，我们几乎已经达到了目标。

So from a functionality standpoint, we're we're nearly there.

为什么说几乎？是指下周吗？还是有什么阻碍你们完全实现目标？

Why Nearly there, like, next week? Or what's what's holding you back from being there?

让我解释一下。我之前提到，目前我们已经为39人植入了设备。回顾一下，公司成立于2021年，现在差不多正好四年。过去两年里我们完成了39例植入。我们得以进行植入的环境是研究性的，这些患者本身就在接受神经外科手术。

Let let let me explain. So I I mentioned that we've implanted 39 people so far. And just to take a step back, the the company was founded in 2021, so we're almost exactly four years old. In the past two years, we've implanted 39 people. The way that we've been able to implant people is in research settings where they're already undergoing a neurosurgical procedure.

举例来说，患者可能有需要外科切除的肿瘤。我们会在他们大脑上放置电极阵列。通常患者在手术过程中是清醒的，这样我们就能运行特定研究方案，真正测试系统的安全性和有效性。这是最重要的——我们要确保我们的方案确实有效。

For example, they have a tumor that a surgeon is resecting. An r array is placed on their brain. Often, patients are awake during the procedures, and so we can run certain research protocols really to test the safety and and the efficacy of the system. That's the most important thing. Like, we wanna make sure that what we're doing is working.

同时开始训练算法，使其能够解码神经活动并驱动功能。一般来说这些植入物的使用时长只有几个小时。当患者清醒时，我们可以要求他们执行特定协议。比如让他们戴着布满传感器的手套，将手指运动与神经活动关联；或者让他们说特定词语，将口腔和舌头的运动与驱动这些运动的底层神经活动相关联。

And also to start training the algorithm to to be able to decode neural activity and use it to drive a function. Generally, the duration of these implants has been a matter of hours. And when they're awake, we can ask them to do certain protocols. So for example, they can wear a glove with lots of sensors on it, and we can correlate the movements of their fingers with the neural activity, or we can ask them to say certain words. And again, we're correlating the movements of their mouth and their tongue to the underlying neural activity that's driving that movement.

但这些案例中的患者真正清醒的时间只有二三十分钟，他们处于麻醉状态，意识有些模糊，正在接受手术。所以数据质量虽好但并不完美。即便在这种条件下，我们仅用十分钟的训练数据就实现了计算机控制。我们将开始展示精密系统的成果——比如让人们仅凭意念就能控制机械手，同样只需十分钟的训练数据。

But the the the people in these cases are really only awake for twenty or thirty minutes, and they're anesthetized. They're they're a little bit out of it, and they're undergoing a surgery. And so the quality of the data is good, but it's not perfect. Even in those settings, we have been able to achieve computer control with ten minutes of training data. We're gonna start releasing demonstrations of what the precision system is doing, but we've also been able to allow people to control robotic hands, again, using only their thought and with only ten minutes of training data.

五万例审批通过后，我们将能为更多人实施植入

What the five ten k approval allows us to do is implant a lot more people

多出几十个人？还是几百个人？

The dozens more people? Hundreds more people?

我们会...会...会看到的，但数字应该介于两者之间。

We'll we'll we'll see, but it's somewhere in between those two numbers.

时间跨度是多久？

And over what time period?

从现在开始。所以就是今年，

Starting now. And that's So this year,

这样你们能多招十几个人吗？

you could have a dozen more people with this?

我觉得会远超这个数字。我是说，去年我们就招了20个，那还是审批前。所以我认为这次会

I think we're gonna have a lot more than that. I mean, you know, we did 20 last year, I think, you know, and that was preapproval. So I think it's gonna be

所以那里

So there

到2026年，真的会有几十甚至上百人带着这个设备四处走动吗？

are gonna be dozens up to a 100 people by 2026 walking around with this, literally?

所以这仍然是一个临时植入体。它仍需在30天内被移除（不是硬拽出来）。但这也意味着我们将能与人们合作，用数天乃至数周的数据来训练算法，而非每人仅几分钟或几小时的数据量。

So so this is still a temporary implant. So it still has the requirement that it's it's removed, not yanked, but removed within thirty days. But what that means is we're gonna be able to work with people and train the algorithms not with minutes or hours of data per person, but days and weeks.

此前我们报道过，埃隆·马斯克曾表示，植入Neuralink脑部芯片的手术就像用智能手表替换一块头骨，然后将细线缝入脑组织使其贴近神经元，直接传递电信号。此外，Syncheron公司称其支架状设备可直接从大脑运动皮层采集信号，该设备位于大脑两半球之间的血管中。

Previously, we've reported that Elon Musk has said the surgery to implant Neuralink's brain chip is like replacing a chunk of your skull with a smartwatch and then sewing threads into brain tissue so they sit close to neurons and directly relay their electrical signals. Also, Syncheron has said its stent like device can pick up signals directly from the brain's motor cortex. It sits in a blood vessel between the two hemispheres of the brain.

我们刚了解到Precision公司在脑机接口方法上与包括埃隆·马斯克的Neuralink在内的一些竞争对手的重大区别之一。如果Precision的技术可移除，这是否也意味着它可升级，就像换新iPhone一样？

We just heard about one of the big differences between Precision's approach to brain computer interfaces interfaces and some of its rivals, including Elon Musk's Neuralink. If Precision's tech is removable, does that also mean it's upgradable, like getting a new iPhone?

其中一片薄膜上有24个电极，但我们能同时在大脑上放置多个薄膜。实际上我们已经创下了最高带宽连接的世界纪录，接下来就是它了。

It's a 24 electrodes on on one of the films, but we can place multiple on the brain at once. We've actually set the world record for the highest bandwidth connection. That's next.

董事会会议室最爱流行词：人工智能、气候、韧性。

Boardrooms love buzzwords. AI, climate, resilience.

但对那些试图熬过下次财报电话会议的CFO和高管们来说，这些词究竟意味着什么？

But what do they actually mean for CFOs and execs trying to survive the next earnings call?

这就是预读环节的用武之地。

That's where the preread comes in.

真正的专家，真实的对话。

Real experts and real talk.

订阅由Workiva推出的预读内容。

Subscribe to the preread presented by Workiva.

所以你们讨论的是高度精确性，这直接体现在公司名称里对吧？精密神经科技。你们将公司定位为健康企业。

So you're talking about a lot of precision. It's right in your name. Right? Precision neuroscience. You've described your company as a health company.

我认为这反映在你和联合创始人的背景中——他曾在Neuralink工作。你们公开讨论过Neuralink是家科技公司。你们想在此做出什么区分？

I think it's reflected in in your background and of your cofounder who was at Neuralink. And y'all have talked publicly about Neuralink as a tech company. What distinction are you trying to make there?

嗯，我想你说得很到位。看看Neuralink公开声明的创立使命，是要建立某种人机智能共生关系，防止人类被通用人工智能超越——如果其真会出现的话。这个使命很好，或许是正确的，但并非我们的使命。我们的使命是以人类健康为核心。

Well, I mean, I I think if you look at you said it well. You know, if you look at the founding mission for Neuralink, what they've stated publicly, it is to create some sort of symbiosis between human and artificial intelligence such that we don't get left behind by artificial general intelligence, if and when that emerges. That is a fine mission. Maybe it's the right mission, but it is not our mission. Our mission is really human health oriented.

我们是医疗健康公司，这不仅体现在企业基因中，也体现在系统架构本身。这套系统具有本质安全性——不会损伤大脑、可逆操作，同时还能提供超高带宽连接。

We're a health care company, and I think that that's built into the DNA of the company as well as the architecture of the system itself. This this concept of a system that is intrinsically safe. It's non damaging to the brain. It's reversible, but it it also provides a really high bandwidth connection.

没错。你有一千个电极直接连接在大脑上。我想象它就像那种老式的，比如八十年代你给打印机插线时，上面有大约200个针脚那种

Right. You have a thousand electrodes right on the brain. I picture it like one of those old school, like, when you would plug in a printer in the eighties, and there's, like, 200 pins on it or

是的。我是说，而且不仅仅是在其中一片薄膜上有24个电极，我们可以一次性在大脑上放置多个电极阵列。实际上我们已经创造了有史以来最高带宽连接的世界纪录

Yeah. I mean and and not only is it's a 24 electrodes on on one of the films, but we can place multiple on the brain at once. We've actually set the world record for the highest bandwidth connection ever achieved.

这是吉尼斯纪录吗？经过认证了吗？

Is that a Guinness record? Was that verified?

这个我无法确认。我们的学术文献研究表明这个记录是现有水平的数倍，4096个电极。这正说明这是一种可扩展的方案，你可以一次性在大脑上放置多个这样的电极阵列，而且它们的设计确保不会对底层神经组织造成额外伤害

I I can't speak to that. Our research of the academic literature suggests that it is a record by several times, but 4,096 electrodes. And that just shows you that sort of this is a scalable approach that you can put multiple of these electrode arrays on the brain at once, and they're designed to do that without any incremental damage to the underlying neural tissue.

我觉得，你知道，这通常不是个受太多关注的领域对吧？我认为埃隆·马斯克的参与带来的一个影响就是让它几乎变成了流行文化。人们现在在Twitter（现在该叫X了）上都能看到相关消息，这么说显得我年纪大了

I mean, I think, you know, this is not a field that gets a lot of attention normally. Right? And I think one of the things that Elon Musk involvement has done is has made it almost pop culture. I mean, people are seeing it on the Twitter, I guess we call it x now. That dates me.

不过这里是《华尔街日报》的老头子时间

But this is old man hour here at the Wall

的编辑部。我们这些出生在

Street Journal. Born before

2010年。好吧，爷爷。你知道的，这很引人注目。对吧？但这也伴随着一种他领先、他引领领域的看法。

2010. Okay, grandpa. You you know, it gets attention. Right? But that also comes with this perception that he's ahead, that he's leading the field.

我听你说话的感觉是，你认为自己可能领先，或者他并不像人们想象的那么领先。

My sense from hearing you is that you feel like perhaps you're ahead or he's not as far ahead as people would think.

是的。我是说，我认为这真的取决于你如何定义谁处于领先地位。你看，当我们审视现状时，我们已经创造了有史以来测试过的最高分辨率系统的记录。我认为，我们的团队...

Yeah. I mean, I think it really just depends how you define who's in the lead. You know, I think when when we look at where we are, you know, we've we've set the record for the highest resolution system that's that's ever been tested. I think, you know, our team is

是啊。但你在X平台上有多少粉丝呢？

Yeah. But how many followers do you have on x?

公平 公平

Fair fair

说得对。你的做法是想让更多人看到实际情况。

fair point. The approach you're doing is you wanna be able to get more out there to see how it is.

完全正确。而且我认为这也是一种设计理念，你要确保你开发的系统按预期运行。你需要从患者、临床医生、手术人员、护士到管理人员那里获取反馈。所有这些对建立业务都至关重要，最终这才是产生影响的方式。越早获得反馈，获得的反馈越多，我认为成功的几率就越大。

That's exactly right. And it's also, I think, a design philosophy where, you know, you really wanna make sure that the system that you are developing is working in the way that you intend. You wanna get feedback from both the patients as well as the clinicians and the surgical staff, the nurses, the administrators. All of that is critical to building a business, and and that's ultimately how you have impact. And the sooner you can get that feedback and and the the the more feedback you can get, I think the greater your chances of success.

说到政府效率，特朗普政府一直在对多个机构进行大幅削减。我很好奇这对你们的工作有何影响，尤其是FDA方面。听说一些医药公司反映审批进程有所延迟。FDA的批准对你们商业计划至关重要，你们观察到什么情况？

Well well, speaking of government efficiencies, the Trump administration has been making a lot of cuts to various agencies. I'm curious how that affects your work, in particular with the FDA. Think some other medical companies have have suggested they're seeing delays in getting approvals. Approval from the FDA is so key to the gateways of your business plan. What are you seeing?

到目前为止，我们这边尚未感受到明显影响。你知道，我们的510K申请，FDA的目标是在90天内对此类提交做出回应。我还要说，FDA是一个巨大的力量源泉。BCI这个行业正在蓬勃发展，不仅在美国，其他地方也是如此。中国的五年规划中明确提到了这一点。

So far, there's been no perceptible impact from our side. You know, our five ten k, the the FDA has a goal of responding within ninety days for these sort of submissions. I'll also say that, you know, the FDA is a tremendous source of strength. So BCI, it's an industry that is gathering steam, not just in The United States, but elsewhere as well. It's explicitly called out on China's five year plan.

哇，欧洲也在开发相关技术。但迄今为止，绝大部分研发、资金和人才都集中在美国。其中FDA起到了关键作用。FDA具有超前的思维。

Wow. There is technology that's being developed in Europe as well. But by far, the lion's share of the development and the dollars and the talent are in The United States. And a major part of that is the FDA. The FDA has been incredibly forward thinking.

他们在四年前就为这个行业发布了指导草案，那是相当早之前的事了。我们需要明确的监管规定来规划自身发展，这非常重要。FDA的工作人员，特别是监管我们的部门，都是由拥有博士学位的专业人士组成

They put out draft guidance for this industry four years ago, so quite a long time ago. And, you know, we need regulatory clarity in order to plan ourselves. That's really important. The FDA is staffed, and the division that regulates us is staffed with PhDs who have

人员依然在岗。

Is still staffed.

人员依然在岗。重申一下，虽然我没有FDA内部消息，但我们所有的互动都表明，与我们合作的人员都还在职。

Is still staffed. Again, like, I I don't have inside information into the FDA, but all of our interactions suggest that everyone we've been working with is still there.

太好了，因为制药公司现在真的叫苦连天。

Great because drug makers are really, you know, crying uncle right now.

我也读到过类似的事情。只是我们还没亲身经历过，希望永远不要遇到。

I've read about the same thing. It just hasn't been our experience yet, and I hope it never is.

展望未来，当前环境下，人们对主流医学的怀疑态度似乎在增加。你担心这会影响产品的采用和批准吗？这是个值得关注的问题吗？

So as we're looking forward, you know, we're in a climate where there is, I think, increased skepticism toward mainstream medicine. Do you worry that that will affect adoption, approval? Is that a concern?

我认为这正是为什么我和业内同行有责任向公众解释我们的工作——让人们理解这项技术具有极其重要的医疗应用价值。另一个关键点是它的效果极其直观：药物疗效通常需要大量样本进行统计验证，而脑机接口的效果立竿见影，成功与否当场可见。

I mean, I think it's part of the reason that, you know, it's incumbent on me and and other people who are in this industry to talk about what we're doing so people understand, you know, that this has a really important medical application. And I think the the other thing about it is it's just so binary. You know? When when you think about drugs, the effect size is generally smaller, and you need very large numbers of people in order to to statistically power a study. With brain computer interfaces, you know immediately if it works or it does not work.

明白吗？患者要么能用意念控制电脑，要么不能，结果清晰明了，具有不言自明的确定性。

You know? Someone can either control a computer with their thoughts or they cannot, and it's it's very clear, and it's very it's very sort of evident self evident.

那你们打算什么时候寄个样品让我们试用？我同事乔安娜·斯特恩肯定能为此做个精彩的视频报道。

So what point are you going to, like, FedEx us one to try out? So my I mean, my colleague Joanna Stern, I feel like she could make an incredible video about this.

太好了。之后我得让本过来处理具体事宜。当然没问题。

Great. Afterwards, I'll have to get Ben in here to do the dirty work. But yeah. Absolutely.

请稍安勿躁。说句实在话——虽然我们都很认真——但你们的研究确实可能改变无数人的生活。我们谈论的是为那些遭受真实病痛折磨、在绝望中挣扎的患者带来希望。

Come on down. You know, let's take a step back. To be to be kind of serious, though, for a second, I mean, we're all very serious here. But, I mean, what you're working on has the potential to change people's lives. And, I mean, we're talking about people who are suffering from very real conditions, giving hope at a time when things can seem hopeless.

作为一位拥有细胞的CEO，你如何平衡这条界限，同时面对现实——这可能会比开发下一代iPhone或其他消费设备进展得更慢。

How do you reconcile walking that line as the CEO who has got a cell with also the reality that this can be a little bit slower than developing the next iPhone or whatever consumer device.

是的。我的意思是，这绝对是我的职责所在。运营一家医疗设备公司意味着需要长期筹集大量资金。这就像开发药物一样，在获得监管批准和实现可观收入之前，会有多年持续的现金流出，最终希望实现财务可持续性。我认为人们越来越认识到，尽管我们所做的事情很困难，但每次都必须完美配合。

Yeah. I mean, think that that's it is definitely my job to sell. You know, we we part of running a medical device company means raising large amounts of capital over long periods of time. It's like developing a drug where you have many, many years of just cash outflows ahead of regulatory approval and then meaningful revenue and and hopefully financial sustainability. I I think that there is growing recognition that even though what we're doing is hard, and it all has to work together perfectly every time.

从误差容限的角度来看，这就像航空航天领域。虽然困难，但我认为人们越来越意识到这将催生出一些真正的大公司。这不是一蹴而就的事，但这里的回报潜力是巨大的。摩根士丹利去年发布报告估计，脑机接口的总可寻址市场达4000亿美元，这并非由Neuralink驱动，而是基于对整个领域和部分参与者的观察。

It's it's like aerospace in terms of the sort of margin for error. So it is difficult, but I think that there is growing recognition that this is gonna create some really big companies over time. It's not something that happens by snapping your finger, but but I think the size of the prize here is tremendous. You know, Morgan Stanley put out a report last year that estimated a $400,000,000,000 total addressable market for brain computer interfaces, and that was not driven by Neuralink. That's just looking at the space and looking at a few of the players in it.

所以我感觉

And so I feel

这假设了他们将吸引地球上所有游戏玩家。

like that assumes they're gonna capture every gamer on Earth.

不，不是的。这不是消费级产品，完全是医疗领域。4000亿美元的可寻址市场仅限医疗领域。

It's not it's no. It's it's it's not consumer. This is all medical. Okay. $400,000,000,000 of addressable market just just in medicine.

如果未来我们能实现更广泛的应用并取代iPhone，谁知道呢？但这并非Precision成立的初衷。我认为人们越来越认识到，未来十到二十年的机遇将属于那些本质上由软件驱动但包含硬件元素的产品。因此对我们所做之事，现在比几年前有了更开放的态度。

And then if we can, you know, achieve more widespread use and replace the iPhone, I mean, who who knows? But that's not that's not why Precision was founded. I think that there's a growing recognition that the opportunity in the next ten, twenty years is gonna be for products that are effectively enabled by software, but which have a hardware element to them. And so I think that there's a open mindedness to what we're doing in a way that even a few years ago, there wasn't.

我们即将结束，让我们回到最初的话题。《离职》这部热门剧讲述了一种脑部植入技术，让人能彻底脱离生活中的不快。这是你向往的吗？当你观看这部剧时，是否感到特别共鸣或依恋？

As we wind down here, let's let's end where we began. Severance, that popular show about a brain implant that allows humans to essentially detach from the unpleasant parts of their life. Is that where you're headed? When you watch that show, do you feel any special akinness to it or a special attachment to it?

你知道，我是

You know, I'm Does

它会萦绕在你脑海中吗？

it get in your head?

我才看到第二季第二集，所以不便评论。

I'm only on episode two of the second season, so I just can't comment.

因为剧中的脑部植入公司是反派。感谢你的时间，能直接听你在演播室分享这些非常有趣。

Because the brain implant company is the bad guy in the show. Thank you for the time. This has been very interesting to hear from you directly and in studio.

是啊，特别待遇。你是我们的第一位。

Yeah. Special treat. You're our first.

谢谢，感谢你们给我这份殊荣。

Thank you. Thank you for honoring me with this.

这并不像脑部手术那样血腥。美国食品药品监督管理局未对其人员配置水平发表评论。

And it wasn't as gory as brain surgery. The FDA did not comment on its staffing levels.

我们还联系了Neuralink和Synchron公司，但未收到回复。

We also reached out to Neuralink and Synchron. They did not respond.

以上就是本周的重要新闻。我们的制作人是丹尼·刘易斯，迈克尔·拉瓦尔和杰西卡·费滕是我们的音效设计师。杰西卡还负责撰写

And that's bold names for this week. Our producer is Danny Lewis, Michael Laval, and Jessica Fetten are our sound designers. Jessica also wrote

我们的主题音乐。监制是凯瑟琳·米尔萨普，开发制作人是艾莎·阿尔穆兹林。斯科特·萨洛韦和克里斯·津斯利是副主编，法拉纳·帕特森是《华尔街日报》新闻音频负责人。更多内容请查看

our theme music. Our supervising producer is Catherine Millsap. Our development producer is Aisha Almuzlim. Scott Salloway and Chris Zinsley are the deputy editors, and Falana Patterson is The Wall Street Journal's head of news audio. For even more, check out

我们在wsj.com上的专栏文章，节目备注中已附链接。

our columns on wsj.com. We've linked them in the show notes.

我是克里斯托弗·米姆斯，我是蒂姆·希金斯。感谢您的收听。

I'm Christopher Mims. And I'm Tim Higgins. Thanks for listening.