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大家好，欢迎回到《建筑暖通科学》节目。
Hello, and welcome back to Building HVAC Science.
我们的播客致力于通过帮助暖通和建筑性能两个专业领域更好地相互理解，从而培养出更专业的技师。
Our podcast endeavors to create more knowledgeable HVAC and building performance technicians by helping the two professions better understand each other.
本播客旨在通过听众、承包商以及Tru Tech Tools客户的共同努力，让他们在居住和工作的住宅与建筑中感到满意。
This podcast aims to make customers happy in the homes and buildings they live and work in through the efforts of our listeners, our contractors, our customers at Tru Tech Tools.
在本期节目中，埃里克·凯泽和我将与清洁能源研究中心的马克斯·赖克林进行对话。
In this episode, Eric Kiser and I sit down with Max Reichlin from Clean Power Research.
他与我们分享了他突破性的HVAC工具Thermentor。
He explores with us his groundbreaking HVAC tool called Thermentor.
该工具旨在弥合住宅能源负荷估算与实际值之间的差距。
It's designed to bridge the gap between estimated and actual residential energy loads.
Thermentor利用真实能源使用数据提供虚拟能源审计。
Thermenter leverages real energy use data to provide virtual energy audits.
目标是提供更准确、更快速、更易获取的负荷计算，赋能承包商和业主，特别是在他们考虑热泵、双燃料系统或设备容量匹配时。
The goal is more accurate, faster, more accessible load calculations that empower contractors and homeowners alike, particularly when they're considering heat pumps, dual fuel systems, or just right sizing equipment.
马克斯向我们介绍了他的背景，分享了Thermentor的起源故事，解释了该工具的工作原理，并讨论了它在美国几个州的部署情况，未来还将扩展到更多地区。
Max gives us his background and shares the origin story of Thermentor, explains how the tool works, and discusses its deployment across a handful of US states with more to come.
他还概述了未来计划，包括更好地整合实时恒温器数据和提高激励措施的可见性。
He also outlines future plans including better integration with real time thermostat data and improved incentive visibility.
我们希望你能深入了解传统负荷计算可能超出实际需求的原因，以及像Thermentor这样的工具如何重塑我们对家庭舒适度和能效的处理方式。
We hope you'll gain some insight into how traditional load calculations may overshoot actual needs and why tools like Thermentor could reshape how we approach home comfort and efficiency.
接下来，我们将与马克斯、埃里克一起探讨如何用真实能源数据重新思考负荷计算。
So onward with the conversation with Max, Eric, and I talking about rethinking load calcs with real energy data.
大家好。
Hey, everyone.
欢迎回到《建筑暖通科学》播客。
Welcome back to the Building HVAC Science Podcast.
我是埃里克·基瑟。
Eric Kiser here.
比尔·斯庞先生正通过虚拟方式与我连线。
Mister Bill Spone with me virtually right over there.
他就像坐在我旁边一样。
It's like he's sitting next to me.
今天我们有一位非常酷的特邀嘉宾，来自一家叫Thermentor的公司，这名字听起来我都不知道该怎么形容。
And a really cool special guest today from a company called Thermentor, which sounds like I'm not even sure.
也许是个超级英雄之类的。
Maybe a superhero or something.
我也不确定。
I don't know.
一位Thermentor。
A Thermentor.
总之，马克斯·莱希伦，欢迎来到我们的节目。
Anyway, Max Reichlen, welcome to the show.
感谢你的加入。
Thanks for joining us.
是啊。
Yeah.
谢谢邀请。
Thanks for having me.
很高兴能来到这里。
I'm excited to be here.
那么，马克斯，你在Clean Power Research公司工作对吧？
So, Max, you work for a company called Clean Power Research.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
而ThurMentor是你们的产品。
And ThurMentor is your product.
它是如何运作的？
How does that work?
没错。
That's correct.
是的。
Yeah.
公司名为清洁能源研究。
The company is Clean Power Research.
我们位于华盛顿州的贝尔维尤市。
We're based in Bellevue, Washington.
我们主要与公用事业公司合作，但现在正通过ThurMentor尝试新方向，致力于帮助暖通空调行业。
We mostly work with utilities, but now we're trying a new thing with ThurMentor, and we're trying to help the HVAC industry.
很好。
Perfect.
清洁能源研究已经运营相当长时间了。
And Clean Power Research has been in business quite a while.
是的。
Yeah.
我们成立已有二十五年多了。
We've been around for a little over twenty five years.
正如我所说，我们的主要产品面向公用事业公司。
Like I said, our main product goes to utilities.
它叫PowerClerk。
It's called PowerClerk.
它负责工作流程自动化。
It does workflow automation.
我们的很多工具都支持太阳能互联，比如为家庭购买太阳能。
A lot of our tools support solar interconnection and, like, buying solar for your home.
我们还有另一个产品叫SolarAnywhere，这是一个太阳能数据产品。
We have another product called SolarAnywhere, which is a solar data product.
因此我们非常专注于在美国推动可再生能源的发展，现在也越来越国际化。
So we're very focused on enabling renewables in The United States and now more and more internationally.
所以
So
Clean Power Research的主要关注点是软件和工作流程赋能吗？
Is the main focus of Clean Power Research is the software and workflow enablement?
这就是他们导师项目的由来吗？
Is that how their mentor came about?
清洁能源研究公司的愿景是打造一个由清洁能源驱动的星球，因此我们始终寻求以客观且有益于人类的方式推动事物向前发展。
Clean Power Research, our vision is a clean powered planet, and so we're always looking for a way that we can push things forward a little bit in a way that is objective and beneficial to people.
我们想讲述真实且有意义的、能为人们带来经济价值的故事。
We wanna tell stories that are true and are gonna make sense, like have economic value for people.
我们的创始人汤姆·霍夫的导师，他不断在自己家中进行各种小型实验。
Their mentor of our founder, Tom Hoff, he's constantly running these little experiments in his house.
最近，他称量了所有待洗衣物，并用各种方式运行洗衣机，试图找出能耗最低的洗衣方案。
Recently, he was weighing all of his laundry and running his laundry in various ways to try to figure out the way he could use the least energy by doing his laundry.
比如，如何让烘干机消耗最少的能源？
Like, how little energy can he use in his dryer?
他为此花费了数月时间进行研究。
And he spent months working on this.
但Surmentor是他早期的发明。
But Surmentor is an earlier creation of his.
这个想法产生于——具体时间我不确定，大概是八九年前——他开始构思利用家庭能源负荷来确定供暖与制冷需求。
He thought of it, I don't know, I think it's a while back now, maybe eight or nine years ago, he started to mull on this idea of using home energy loads to determine heating and cooling loads.
听起来非常合理，不是吗，Eric？
Seems very logical, doesn't it, Eric?
这在我看来异常合理，我个人非常期待今天能了解更多，因为这个问题在我脑海中盘旋已久——我们如何能更好地创建负荷，或为现有住宅获取更精确的负荷数据，同时减少承包商的输入和耗时。
It seems exceptionally logical to me, and I'm personally very excited to learn more about this today because this has been something that I'm gonna say has been rolling around in my brain for quite a while about how can we better create loads or get more accurate loads for existing homes with less input from contractors, less time spent.
因为这些现有住宅就摆在这里，我们有机会收集它们运行时的数据。
Because we have these existing homes that are sitting here, and we have an opportunity to gather data from them about how they operate.
因为我们目前很多负荷计算充其量只是猜测。
Because a lot of our load calculations currently are guesses at best.
其中很多都是经过充分考虑的推测。
Now a lot of them are very educated guesses.
我们可以输入实际数据，比如隔热性能、渗透率等各种参数，但无论我们的推测多么准确，终究只是猜测。
We can put actual data like insulation, and we can put infiltration and all kinds of other things into there, but it doesn't matter how good we guess, they're still just a guess.
通过输入更多数据，我们能做出相当可靠的推测。
And putting in the more data, we can get a pretty good guess on it.
但对于一栋正在运行的房屋来说，这似乎蕴含着巨大机遇，因此我期待了解更多相关信息。
But for a house that's been operating, it just seems like a huge opportunity for me, and so I'm excited to learn more about this.
在我们深入讨论之前，不如先回顾一下Max是如何走到今天能与Eric和Bill对话这一步的？
Before we go too much far forward, how about we go back and figure out how Max got to the point where he's sitting here talking to Eric and Bill?
当然可以。
Sure.
我们可以聊聊这个。
We could talk about that.
我猜这其中少不了咖啡的功劳。
I'm gonna guess there was coffee involved.
今天确实少不了咖啡。
There's definitely coffee involved today.
没错。
Yeah.
过去十年里，我一直担任机械工程师的职务。
So my career over about the last ten years has been as a mechanical engineer.
主要从事工业能源效率方面的工作。
I worked mostly in industrial energy efficiency.
我曾为几家公司工作，致力于帮助工业设施自主发电或节约能源。
So I worked for a couple different companies where we were trying to help industrial facilities either generate their own power or save energy.
我去过锯木厂。
I would go to saw mills.
也去过污水处理厂之类的地方。
I went to wastewater treatment plants, stuff like that.
这非常有趣。
It was really fun.
同时也颇具挑战。
It was also hard.
你得走进这些有时相当老旧的设施，帮他们理清诸如这些管道通向哪里之类的问题。
You have to go into these sometimes aging facilities and try to help them figure out, like, where do these pipes go?
这些泵是如何相互连接的？
How do these pumps connect to one another?
以及我们怎样才能减少能源消耗？
And how can we, like, use less energy?
这很酷，因为我们有时只需对制冷系统或泵做些相当小的改动，就能节省相当于许多家庭用电量的能源，因为这些设施真的非常庞大。
And it was cool because sometimes we would do, like, a pretty small thing to a refrigeration system or a pump, and it would save many households worth of energy because these were, like, really big facilities.
我还去过炼油厂之类的地方，挺有意思的。
I went to, like, oil refineries and stuff, so that was fun.
是啊。
Yeah.
那些地方确实存在很大的节能空间。
There's a lot of opportunity for savings in those places.
没错。
Yeah.
尤其是如果它们基本没怎么更新过设备的话。
Especially if they haven't really been, like, updated that much.
如果这些设施三十、四十甚至五十年来一直以同样方式运行，那节能机会就更多了。
They've been sitting there for thirty, forty, fifty years operating the same way, then there's a lot of opportunities.
人们就是这么做到的。
People just make it.
他们患上了‘叠加病’，就是总想着在旧系统上再堆砌新系统，可能这些系统本身就没优化好或存在类似问题。
What they get add onitis where, oh, we're gonna throw this new system on top of an old system and maybe they weren't optimized or something like that in there.
所以做这类事情肯定很有意思吧。
So that's a lot of fun to do stuff like that, I bet.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
而且和暖通空调领域还有些交集。
And there's a little overlap with HVAC stuff.
我以前经常捣鼓大型螺杆压缩机的吸气温度之类的参数，就是那种500马力的大型螺杆压缩机之类的设备。
I used to play with suction temps and whatnot on, like, big screw compressors, like big, like, 500 horsepower screw compressors and things like that.
这不是我的专长领域，但也确实接触过一些。
It wasn't my area of expertise, but I did do it some.
哦，那很有趣啊。
Oh, that's fun.
所以你现在的专业领域是，你提到过软件产品经理。
So now your area of expertise is you'd mentioned software product manager.
是的。
Yeah.
我决定转变方向，于是来到清洁能源研究公司担任产品经理。
I decided to switch gears, and so I came over to Clean Power Research to be a product manager.
我最初负责我们的Watt Plan产品，这与之前讨论的内容相关。
I worked first on our Watt Plan product, which relate to what was talking about earlier.
我们帮助消费者了解购买太阳能对他们会产生什么影响。
We help consumers understand what the impact will be for them to buy solar.
所以我们把它卖给公用事业公司。
So we sell it to utilities.
你可以登录公用事业公司的网站，访问他们的WAT计划站点，它会引导你查看你的房子。
You can go to the utility website and go to their WAT plan site, and it says it goes to look at your house.
它会检查你的屋顶，然后给出评估结果。
It looks at your roof and it says, okay.
我们认为这里有足够的空间安装太阳能板。
Well, we think there's this much room for panels.
它们朝向这个方向。
They're facing this direction.
我们预估成本大约这么多，因此根据该电力公司的费率，这是你的投资回报周期。
We think they'll cost this much, and so this is what your payback's gonna be with the rates that are at that utility.
你提到他们的导师计划在汤姆脑海中酝酿已久。
You mentioned that their mentor idea had been stirring around in Tom's mind for a while.
这个想法什么时候真正开始落地的？
When did it really start to get traction?
我们与几家电力公司合作进行了几项研究。
We did a couple of studies with utilities.
我们在加州与SMUD合作了一项研究，去年又完成了与纽约几家电力公司的研究项目。
We did a study in California with SMUD, and then we recently finished a study last year with a couple utilities in New York.
在这些研究中，我们没有逐户分析，而是考察了他们整个服务区域的情况。
And what we did in those is instead of doing it, like, on a house by house basis, we looked at their entire territory.
他们实际上向我们提供了这些区域内所有家庭的匿名化用电数据。
They actually gave us all of the anonymized usage for all of the homes in those territories.
我们使用所谓的'虚拟能源审计'方法评估了所有这些住宅的外壳性能。
And we evaluated the shell for all of those homes using our we call it the virtual energy audit, that's like the name of it.
虚拟能源审计使我们能够在不实际进入住宅的情况下评估其外壳和负载情况，只要我们掌握足够的能源数据和住宅基本运行信息。
And the virtual energy audit allows us to evaluate the shell and the loads in a home without actually being in the home, as long as we have enough energy data and some basic information about how the home operates.
那他们里面有没有种植农场呢？
And whether they have a grow farm in there or not?
那里
There
确实存在一些挑战。
are some challenges.
数据存在异常情况。
Meberrations, the data.
如果他们有用电负荷非常特殊的情况，确实会稍微棘手一些。
If they have very unusual loads, yeah, it can be a little trickier.
是的。
Yeah.
可以想象，如今房子里运行的其他电子设备和电器，要解析这些负载有时确实很有挑战性。
I can imagine with all of the other electronics and things that run-in houses today that parsing out those loads can be challenging at times.
没错。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It is.
我们仍在研究其中一些细节，特别是关于他们导师的应用部分。
And we're still working on some of those details as it applies to their mentor.
最棘手的问题之一就是：你家有太阳能吗？
Some of the trickiest ones are like, do you have solar?
如果有太阳能系统，并且你提供的是净能源使用量，那情况就复杂了。
If you have solar and you're give us your net energy use, like that is complicated.
如果拥有电动汽车，尤其是多辆电动车的话，处理起来也会很棘手。
If you have EVs, especially if you have multiple EVs, that can be tricky.
我们确实有应对这些情况的策略。
We actually have strategies to deal with those.
这些策略尚未在Thurmentor中实施。
They're not implemented in Thurmentor yet.
我希望我们能尽快实现这一点。
I'm hoping that we can do that soon.
让我们深入了解一下Thurmentor的运作方式以及它的一些目标。
Let's dig into a little bit about how Thurmentor works and what some of the goals are for Thurmentor.
好的。
Yeah.
我们应该从目标开始讲，还是从运作方式开始讲？
Should we start with the goals, or should we start with how it works?
让我们从目标开始吧。
Let's start with goals.
我最喜欢从目标开始讨论。
I love starting with goals.
通过Thurmentor，我们拥有一种策略，能使负荷计算变得更简单、更快速、更精确。
With Thurmentor, we have a strategy that can make load calculations easier, faster, more accurate.
我们认为这对暖通空调行业、建筑科学以及建筑性能领域的人士都具有重要价值。
And we think that can be of value to folks in the HVAC industry, folks in the building science, building performance industries.
因此我们正尝试以能为他们创造价值的方式，将这一工具带给这些人群。
And so we're trying to bring it to those people in a way that is gonna provide value for them.
我真正想做的是持续完善这个工具。
What I really wanna do is keep building this tool.
目前它还处于萌芽阶段。
Right now, it's nascent.
现在只是起步，主要进行负荷计算。
It's at the beginning, and it's doing the load calcs.
但我们希望持续开发，让它不断成长。
But we wanna keep building it, have it grow.
我们希望能帮助人们更好地销售。
We wanted to help people sell.
推广热泵，在适合的家庭中为热泵的应用提供有力依据。
Sell heat pumps, make the case for heat pumps in homes where it makes sense.
我理解热泵的部分，因为我们正在考虑热泵，但即使对于不安装热泵的地方，这对燃气炉的容量匹配也有用吗？
I hear the heat pump thing because we're looking at heat pumps, but even for places where people aren't putting in heat pumps, is this useful for rightsizing a gas furnace?
是的。
Yeah.
它对燃气炉的容量匹配同样有用。
It would be useful for rightsizing a gas furnace also.
根据我对市场和行业的了解，以及现有设备的情况，实际上可能很难买到容量匹配的燃气炉，因为它们根本不做那么小的型号。
From what I understand about the market and the industry, the units that are available, it's probably actually hard to buy a right sized furnace, like a right sized gas furnace because they just don't make them that small.
现在终于有些厂家开始生产低至30,000 BTU的燃气炉了。
They're finally getting down to where some places are making as low as like a 30,000 btu, I think, gas furnace.
我记得输入功率是30或40,000 BTU。
I think 30 or 40,000 btu input.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这已经接近那些温和气候地区所需的尺寸了。
And so that's getting down to the size where these, like, mild climates.
可能已经很接近了。
It's probably getting close.
这些气候条件尤其适合热泵，特别是在较温和的气候中。
And those climates are prime for heat pumps, especially in milder climates.
这些地方最适合使用热泵。
Those are prime for heat pumps.
我确实看到很多更北方的气候区，目前双燃料系统是个非常好的选择。
I do see a lot of more northern climates where I think right now dual fuel is a really good option.
但我认为像这样的好项目可以帮助优化热泵配置，并告知人们最佳切换点，因为这是当前行业面临的一个挑战。
But I think a good program like this can help to optimize heat pump setup and inform people about where good changeover happens because that is a challenge in the industry right now.
所以在我看来，这有很多用途。
So to me, there's a lot of uses for this.
我们对这个非常感兴趣。
We're very interested in that.
我们立刻收到了很多问题。
We got a lot of questions right away.
你们支持双燃料系统吗？
Do you support dual fuel?
你们支持备用供暖吗？
Do you support backup heat?
我们实际上刚刚推出了这个功能。
We've actually just rolled that out.
现在你可以进入Thermentor系统说，嘿，我有一台天然气炉。
So you can go into Thermentor now and you can say, hey, I have a natural gas furnace.
我打算保留它，并设置切换温度为30度或35度之类的数值。
I'm gonna keep it, and I'm gonna have this switch over temperature at 30 degrees or 35 degrees or whatever that number is.
我们会根据你选择的切换温度来计算账单将如何变化。
So what we'll do is we'll calculate how your billing's gonna change depending on what crossover temperature you picked.
观察这个现象很有意思。
It's been interesting looking at it.
我一直在研究它，结果令人震惊。
Like I've been playing with it, and it's shocking.
有时候如果你使用天然气，相比电力，天然气每单位能量的价格非常便宜。
Sometimes if you have natural gas, natural gas is very cheap per unit of energy compared to electricity.
如果你原本使用天然气，转而使用热泵并配有电热条，且设置了较高的切换温度，比如设为40度，那么冬天可能会收到一些惊人的高额账单。
And if you're using natural gas and you switch to a heat pump and you've got strip heat and you've got a high crossover temperature, like if you're setting it at 40 degrees, like you might have some scary surprise bills in the winter.
我曾见过账单在一个月内突然飙升40.5美元、60美元，就像'砰'地一下冒出来。
I've seen jumps of $40.50, $60 in just one month that'll just, like, boop, just pop up.
哦，确实。
Oh, yeah.
电热条作为辅助供暖确实如此。
With electric strip heat is your auxiliary heat for sure.
电热条真的能让电费账单在短时间内增加数百美元。
You can add hundreds of dollars to an electric bill with strip heat really quickly.
这确实令人惊讶。
It is surprising.
是啊。
Yeah.
我对双燃料功能感到非常兴奋。
I'm really excited about the dual fuel feature.
我认为这对人们会非常有价值。
I think it's gonna be really valuable to people.
我认为我们会看到热泵，某种程度上我们已经有了，对吧，就是能在寒冷气候下工作的热泵。
I think we're gonna see heat pumps, and to a certain extent, we already have them, right, as heat pumps that are gonna perform in cold climates.
它们并不需要那个。
They don't need that.
而且我认为部分问题实际上在于人们总是高估供暖需求。
And I think part of the issue actually is that people overestimate the heating loads all the time.
不是因为别的，而是大家都担心会感到不舒服。
It's not because of, but, like, everyone's worried about being uncomfortable.
每个人都总担心会感到不舒服。
Everyone's always worried about being uncomfortable.
正因为如此，手动计算的负荷值往往偏保守。
The manual j is conservative because of that.
然后承包商在此基础上更加保守。
Then contractors are conservative on top of that.
接着房主们又在之上再加一层保守。
Then homeowners are conservative on top of that.
最终我们陷入这种恐惧——'哎呀，我们可能需要6万BTU的制热'，而实际上那房子只需要3万，预期负荷被整整翻了一倍。
And so what we end up with is this fear, like, oh, we probably do need 60,000 BTUs of heating when maybe that home only needs 30, truly doubling the expected load.
所以我怀疑有很多家庭虽然装了双燃料或辅助电加热，但其实根本不需要。
And so I suspect there are a lot of homes out there that have dual fuel or strip heat that probably don't need it.
就像他们可能安装了严重超标的设备，完全可以直接关掉那些辅助电加热。
Like, they probably have a piece of equipment that's so oversized they could just turn off that strip heat.
它根本就不该启动。
It should never turn on.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你有一个设置得当的控制系统，只要配置正确，它很可能就不会启动。
And if you have a properly set up control system, it probably won't turn on as long as that's set up properly.
我认为，像这样的实时负载计算程序，可以帮助你了解应该在何时何地开始启用设备。
And I think, again, a real time load calculation program like this, I think, can help you inform how well or where you should start turning things on.
这可以作为一种参考标准。
And that can be kind of a gauge.
如果我们有来自制造商的良好数据，也许可以在系统中设置一个提示，告诉你：嘿。
If we have good data from the manufacturers, I think maybe there could be a gauge in there that says, hey.
差不多就是这个时候该启动了。
This is about when this should turn on.
当然，这会随着室外条件的变化而有所不同。
Of course, that's gonna vary with outdoor conditions.
让我们稍微了解一下它的工作原理和你目前的进展，我们会在节目说明中放上你网站的链接供大家访问。
Let's get in a little bit about how it works, what you have so far, and we will put links to your website in the show notes for people to go there.
网址是thurmentor.com和thermentor.com。
It is thurmentor.com, and thermentor.com.
然后输入/demo，你实际上可以运行一个演示。
And then slash demo, you can actually run a demo.
不过需要注意的是，目前它仅适用于华盛顿州、俄勒冈州和加利福尼亚州的住宅。
However, it's gotta be noted that it's it currently works for homes in Washington, Oregon, and California.
为什么呢？
Why is that?
这可能显而易见，但何不再说明一下原因？
That might be obvious, but why don't you just restate why that is?
目前确实如此。
So right now yeah.
没错。
That's right.
我们现阶段的服务覆盖西海岸各州。
We have coverage in the West Coast states right now.
我们正在增加更多地区。
We're adding more.
接下来将覆盖科罗拉多州、明尼苏达州、伊利诺伊州和威斯康星州。
We're gonna have Colorado and Minnesota and Illinois and Wisconsin next.
分布有点零散。
It's a little scattered.
我们目前正尽可能快地增加更多州份。
We're trying to add states as quickly as possible right now.
原因是尽管全美的负荷计算流程相当统一，而且我们拥有全美各地的温度数据。
The reason is that although the load calculation process is fairly uniform across The United States, and we have temperatures across The United States.
这两点是关键细节，但我们尚未在所有目标地区都建立费率体系。
So those are kind of the two key details there, but we don't have rates everywhere that we want to have rates.
我们还未完成设计温度的设置工作。
We don't have the design temperature set up yet.
这就是我们正在推进的覆盖范围扩展工作。
And so that's the coverage stuff that we're doing.
我们正在确保所有我们想支持的区域都有电力和燃气费率数据。
We're making sure that there are electrical and gas rates for all of the areas that we wanna support.
同时我们也在增加激励措施和返利政策。
And then we're also adding incentives and rebates.
这是我们之前没谈到的，但我们正努力增加联邦、州和地方各级激励政策的覆盖范围。
So it's something we haven't talked about, but we're trying to add like enough coverage of federal, state, and local incentives.
这样无论你在俄勒冈州蒂加德市还是其他地方，都能知道通过Mentor平台可以获取哪些激励政策。
So that if you're in Tigard, Oregon or wherever, you know what the incentives are that are available for you when you go through through Mentor.
对于承包商来说，当你让客户通过Mentor平台时，你可以说'去用Mentor平台吧'。
And for a contractor, sending one of your customers through through mentor, you can say, hey, go use through mentor.
你将能看到一些可用的激励政策。
You'll be able to see what some of the incentives that are available.
然后我们真正想做的是——虽然这个功能还没开发——但希望能深入查看具体项目。
And then you can also really, what we wanna do, and this is not built yet, but we wanna be able to drill down into that project.
你将安装这个特定设备。
You're gonna install this particular piece of equipment.
它将按照这些方式运行，因此房主将有资格获得这些特定的激励措施。
It's gonna operate in these ways, and so the homeowner is gonna be eligible for these specific incentives.
这就是我们的发展方向。
That's where we're going.
但目前来说，范围要更广一些。
But for right now, it's a little broader than that.
它只是展示可能对您开放的各种激励措施。
It's just showing the world of incentives that might be available to you.
这个流程是由房主操作还是承包商操作，或者两者都可以？
And the process is something that the homeowner does or the contractor does, or it can be either one?
对。
Yeah.
两者都可以。
It can be either one.
目前网站设置为匿名免费使用，您可以随时去试用。
So right now, the way the website is set up, it's anonymous and free, and you can just go and try it out.
所以任何人都可以访问，假设你住在加利福尼亚、俄勒冈或华盛顿的某个特定城市，系统会知道当地的设计温度。
So anyone can go, say you live in a particular city in California or Oregon or Washington, and it'll know what those design temps are.
它会了解该地区的历史本地温度数据。
It'll know what the local temperatures are in that area, like historically.
然后你可以输入过去一年的能源使用情况。
And then you can put in your energy use for the past year.
接着我们会将你的能源使用数据与该地区的温度进行匹配，从而确定随着温度变化，你家是如何消耗能源的。
And so then we take that energy use, we match it up to the temperatures in that area, and we're able to determine how your home is using energy as the temperature changes.
因此，输入能源部分的数据有点棘手。
So that putting energy in part is a little tricky.
所以我预想的情况是，大多数时候房主会自己完成这部分操作。
And so what I imagine is gonna happen is that most of the time homeowners are gonna do that.
承包商会说：'嘿，把你的数据输入到这里，然后告诉我们结果——要么按现在的方式反馈，要么等我们完全建成这个系统后，数据会直接传送给承包商。'
The contractor will say, hey, go put your data in here and then tell us what either tell us what comes out the way it is now, or in the future when we've got this thing fully built, they'll say it'll just go straight to that contractor.
承包商将获得这些数据，他们可以补充项目相关信息，并为房主提供关于其房屋的非常棒的分析报告。
And the contractor will have the data, they'll be able to put in additional information about the project, and they'll have something really cool to provide for that homeowner about their home.
那么你们使用的是哪种能源数据？
So what energy data are you using?
你们用的是按月的数据，还是需要更细化的数据？
Are you using month by month data, or do you need to get more granular than that?
目前我们使用的是按月的数据。
So right now, we're using month by month data.
现在我们已经设置好了这个功能。
So you can go we have it set up right now.
如果你想登录燃气公司账户，了解什么是therm或CCF单位，你可以进入燃气公司网站查看账单或登录账户获取这些信息，然后直接输入到工具中。
So if you wanna log into your gas utility and you know what a therm is or you know what a CCF is, you can go into your gas utility and you can go to your bills or you can go to your login and get that information and put it into the tool directly yourself.
这对很多人来说会有些困难，可能是因为他们不知道如何登录公用事业账户，或者他们的公用事业公司没有在线账户，又或者他们丢失了所有账单。
That's gonna be daunting for a lot of folks, either because they have no idea how to log in to their utility, maybe their utility doesn't have a login, maybe they lost all their bills.
所以我们目前提供的另一个选择是，你可以输入总账单金额。
So another option that we have right now is that you can put in the total bill.
也就是说，你可以直接输入总账单金额。
So you can put in the total bill.
因为我们掌握了所有费率数据，可以说'哦，一月份你在燃气上花费了120美元'。
And because we have all the rates, we can say, oh, in January, you spent a $120 on gas.
这意味着你使用了这么多热量单位。
That means you used this many therms.
因此我们可以逆向推算出来。
And so we can back into it.
我认识一些讨厌为网站创建登录账号的人。
I know people that hate making logins for websites.
我想没人喜欢为网站创建账号，但我遇到过很多人根本不知道如何登录。
I guess nobody loves making logins for websites, but I have met plenty of people that they have no idea how to log in.
他们甚至不知道自己的公用事业公司是哪家。
They don't know who their utilities are.
这非常令人困惑。
It's very confusing.
但他们确实知道每月开支票支付了多少钱。
But they do know, because they write a check every month, what they're paying.
他们会说，我知道这是暖气费账单，而且我知道我付了120美元，因为我的支票簿上清清楚楚写着呢。
They're like, I know this is the heating bill, and I know I paid a $120 because it's right here in my checkbook.
所以他们可以翻阅支票簿，把金额填进去，因为这是他们熟悉的事情。
And so they can go through their checkbook and put the dollars in because that's something they know about.
他们可以把这些数据输入ThromMentor，然后我们就能推算出能源使用情况。
And they can put those into ThromMentor, and then we can back into the energy use.
如果你在加州这种地方，使用了很多分时电价，情况就会稍微复杂些。
Now that gets a little trickier if you're in, like, California and you have a lot of time of use rates.
事情会变得稍微复杂一些。
Things get a little more complicated.
在国内某些地区可能会变得特别复杂，比如我所在的地方，煤气费和水费是合并计算的。
That could get really complicated in some areas of the country because, like, I can think of in my local area, my gas bill and my water bill are combined.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
这有点奇怪。
That's weird.
是的。
Yeah.
因为是由同一家公用事业公司负责燃气和供水。
Because it's the same utility that runs gas and water.
就像我父母住的地方，燃气和电费会出现在同一张账单上，因为由同一家公用事业公司运营燃气和电力。
And in, like, where my parents live, it would be your gas and your electric are on the same bill because the same utility runs gas and electric.
对。
Yeah.
燃气和电力合并很常见，我们正在考虑如何帮助处理这类情况，因为美国一些大型公用事业公司就是这样运作的，比如太平洋燃气电力公司。
Gas and electric is very common, and we're, like, thinking about how to help handle those situations because some of the biggest utilities in the country are like that, like PG and E.
但燃气和供水合并对我来说是头一回听说。
But gas and water is a new one for me.
我从来没听说过这种情况。
I have I've never heard of that.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们负责燃气、供水和污水处理，而电力则由另一家公用事业公司负责。
They handle gas, water, and sewer, and then the electric is a separate utility.
是的。
Yeah.
这很合理。
That makes sense.
这里有些微妙之处，我相信你也知道，就像美国各地的建筑差异很大，公用事业公司也是如此，非常多样化。
There are some subtleties, and I'm sure you know, just like in buildings vary quite a bit around The United States, like utilities, just very diverse.
它们的组织结构、运营区域、计费方式，所有这些都极具差异性。
The way they're structured, where they operate, how they bill, all of these things are extremely variable.
因此在我们试图覆盖更多地区时，必须充分考虑大量本地信息。
And so we have to take a lot of local information into account as we're trying to cover more parts of the country.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，还要把建筑特性也考虑进去。
Well, and building features into it too.
你们正在整合的许多功能，一旦全部完成，人们就能使用了。
There's a lot of features you're putting in that that people are gonna be able to use once it's all put together.
没错。
That's right.
我有个问题想问你们。
So question for you.
你们能否对流程进行验证，或者与其他流程或实际结果进行比较？
You able to do any validation or comparison of your process against maybe another process or the actual results?
这种情况发生过吗？
Has that happened?
有一些。
A little bit.
这方面总是有改进空间的。
There's always room for more.
我们做的第一件事是我们的高级研究员布兰妮，她研究了自己的房子。
The first thing we did, our senior researcher, Britney, she looked at her own house.
她检查了自己的房子。
She checked her own house.
她说，嗯，我家能耗情况如何，我的供暖炉尺寸多大？
She said, well, how is my home use energy, and how is my furnace size?
那时她用的是一台燃气供暖炉，额定功率为66,000 BTU。
This is a gas furnace that she had at the time, and her furnace was rated for 66,000 BTUs.
结果她发现，在最冷的设计日里，她家供暖仅需11,000 BTU。
And she found out that her home only uses 11,000 BTUs on the design day for heating.
她能够查看自己家的详细数据。
She was able to look at the details of her.
她装有Nest智能温控器，可以准确知道供暖炉的运行频率。
She has a Nest thermostat, and she was able to tell exactly how often it like, the furnace was running.
那是个单级供暖炉。
It was a single stage furnace.
所以计算起来相当简单直接。
So was a pretty straightforward calculation.
于是她通过Nest智能温控器弄清楚了这些数据，然后查阅了水电账单，完成了虚拟能源审计——这是他们导师的方法。
And so she was able to figure that out using the Nest, and then she took her utility bills and did her virtual energy audit, which is their mentor.
而且两者数据匹配得非常接近。
And And they matched very closely.
实际上我昨天刚在他们的导师网站上发布了一份新的白皮书，里面包含了更多验证数据。
We're I actually just posted yesterday a new white paper on the their mentor website, which has a little bit more validation.
西北能源效率联盟（NEEA）就是这样一个机构。
So there's the Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance, NEEA.
他们有——我可能会念错名字——
They have I'm gonna butcher the name.
我记得是叫终端用电负荷研究，他们在西北地区详细测量了许多家庭的能源使用情况。
I don't remember what it's called, an end use load study, I think, where they measured in great detail the energy use in a bunch of homes in the Northwest.
他们实际上测量了每条电路的能耗。
So they actually measured the energy use on each circuit.
他们收集了每户家庭的大量数据。
They took a bunch of data about each home.
从那个数据集中，我们筛选出了约20户家庭的子集，这些家庭的数据足够详细，能让我们了解其Manual J负荷情况，因为这是他们分析的一部分。
And so from that dataset, there was like a sub group of them of about 20 homes that had enough detail for us to know what their manual j loads would be because that was part of the analysis they did.
同时，该数据集还包含了所有这些详细的能源使用数据。
And then it also has all that detailed energy use.
因此我们能够将设计日的实际能源使用情况与通过逐电路测量获得的家庭数据进行对比。
And so we were able to compare what that design day energy use looked like for real in the home from that circuit by circuit measurement.
我们既能查看Manual J的预测值，也能用Mentor系统对这些家庭进行模拟分析。
And we were able to see what the manual j would predict, and then we could also run through mentor on those homes.
我们发现实际能源使用与Mentor系统的模拟结果高度吻合，而Manual J的预测值经常——我不该说总是——远高于实际能耗。
And what we found was that the energy use matched very closely to through mentor, and that the manual j was always I shouldn't say always, frequently much much higher than that actual energy use.
极端案例的预测值甚至达到实际能耗的五倍。
The outliers were like five times the actual energy use.
有少数案例的预测值相当接近实际。
A couple of them were pretty close.
我记得最终平均预测值大约是家庭实际能耗的两倍。
I think the average ended up being around double the energy use of the home.
我们发现，他们的导师系统与实际能源使用方式高度吻合，这很合理，因为这就是它的设计目的。
So what we found is that their mentor matches closely with the actual way people use energy, which makes sense because that's what it's doing.
对吧？
Right?
它能监测家庭如何使用能源，并准确判断实际所需的供暖量。
It can see how the home is using energy and it can see how much heating it really needs.
实际上它不会与手动J计算的结果匹配。
It's actually not gonna match the manual j.
数值会更低，因为手动J计算过于保守。
It's gonna be lower because the manual j is so conservative.
这是在分析什么数据？
This is looking at what?
是关于供暖度日数吗？具体是指室外温度？
Heating degree days as far as your outdoor temperature?
不完全是字面意义上的供暖度日数。
It's not heating degree days literally exactly that.
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我们正在进行温度回归分析。
We are doing a temperature regression.
所以我们既关注能源使用情况，也关注温度变化。
So we're looking at the energy use and we're looking at what the temperature is.
这在某种程度上与供暖度日数非常相似。
It's very similar to heating degree days in some way.
实际上我们正在对配送燃料采用类似供暖度日数的分析方法。
And we're actually using a heating degree day type analysis for delivered fuels.
我们正在努力将配送燃料纳入系统。
We're working on adding delivered fuels to it.
这样如果你使用丙烷或燃油供暖，就能输入相应的配送记录。
So you'll be able to put in propane deliveries or oil deliveries if you're using those to heat your home.
对这些燃料我们将采用供暖度日数分析法，因为数据点可能不足以进行我们常用的标准回归分析。
And we're gonna use a heating degree day type analysis for those because there's just you might not have enough data points for us to do a regression, which is the standard technique that we use.
那么有没有办法让人们像布兰妮那样，如果他们拥有恒温器，就可以录入设备运行时间数据呢？
So is there any way for people to say, basically do what, like, Britney did with her equipment and put runtime data in there if they have a thermostat.
因为现在有很多恒温器可以收集运行时间数据。
Because there's a lot of thermostats out there now that will gather runtime data.
目前还没有这个功能。
There's not right now.
这是个很酷的想法。
There's a lot of that's a cool idea.
我们目前不接受运行时间数据。
We're not taking runtime data.
我认为这对我们试图帮助的大多数人来说可能过于专业了。
I think that's probably too deep in the weeds for most of the people we're trying to help.
也许吧。
Maybe.
是的。
Yeah.
但也许我错了。
But maybe I'm wrong.
也许未来实现这个会很容易。
Maybe it'll be easy to do that in the future.
我非常期待这一点。
I would love that.
现在市面上有大量联网温控器，它们能够收集运行数据，甚至可能实时提供这些数据。
There's a ton of connected thermostats and thermostats out there now that can gather runtime data and maybe even provide that in real time.
我不确定这种集成会是什么样子，但我认为未来我们可能会实现利用运行数据做到这一点。
I'm not sure how that integration might look like, but I think that's what we're looking at in the future, maybe is being able to do that with runtime data.
我们正在与制造商沟通，试图找到双方合作的切入点，因为他们有保护品牌的投资需求。
We're talking to manufacturers to try to figure out if there is a place where we can play together on this because they have an investment in protecting their brand.
比如，他们希望自己的设备能良好运行。
Like, they want their equipment to operate well.
我认为他们确实也希望让人们在家中感到舒适，但同时他们的品牌形象也非常显眼。
I think they genuinely also just wanna make people comfortable in their homes, but they're also very visible.
如果你知道家里装的是博世或三菱的设备，而它运行不正常，你肯定会抱怨博世或三菱。
If you know you have a Bosch or a Mitsubishi or whatever, and it's not working, you're gonna swear about the Bosch or the Mitsubishi.
你不一定会抱怨真正的问题所在，而那可能与设备本身毫无关系。
You're not necessarily gonna complain about the actual problem, which might have nothing to do with that.
我们正尝试与他们沟通，寻找合作方式，他们拥有海量的数据资源。
We're trying to talk to them and find ways to play, and they have an incredible amount of data.
其中一些厂商确实掌握了大量关于设备运行情况的信息。
Some of them have really got a lot of information about how that equipment operates.
如果我们能利用这些数据来辅助分析，那将会非常棒。
And if we could use that to inform our analysis, that would be really cool.
还有你提到的售后温控器制造商，比如Nest、Ecobee或霍尼韦尔，即便是这些品牌的部分型号也能提供大量可提取的数据。
And then you've got your aftermarket thermostat manufacturers, like you mentioned Nest or Ecobee or Honeywell, and even those have a lot of data that can be brought out of certain models.
确实。
Yeah.
他们确实拥有这些数据。
They certainly do.
没错。
Yeah.
我认为能在某个地方为此设置输入功能会非常棒。
I think that would be really neat to be able to have an input somewhere for that.
所以你网站上刚发布的三份白皮书。
So you just three white papers on your site.
你提到新的那份现在已经上线了。
You mentioned the new one's up now.
我们一定会放上你们网站白皮书专栏以及整个网站的链接。
We'll definitely put links to the white paper segment of your website as well as the website in general.
你们业务范围虽有限，但已在三个州开展，很快还将拓展到三四个新州。
And you are not limited, but you are working in three states with three or four more to come on shortly.
你想给我们的听众留下什么建议？
What would you like to leave our listeners with?
你认为他们应该思考什么方向？
What thought do you think they should pursue?
那么，对于在你们服务覆盖州内和不在覆盖州内的人群，分别有什么建议呢？
Well, how about for ones that are in your states of coverage and then those that are not in your states of coverage?
两个不同的想法。
Two different thoughts.
两个不同的想法。
Two different thoughts.
对于目前覆盖州的听众，我非常希望你们能通过Mentor来尝试。
For the folks that are in the states of coverage right now, I would love for you to come out and try through Mentor.
我们现在提供的版本是免费的。
The version that we have out right now is free.
它是匿名的。
It's anonymous.
你可以来体验。
You can come.
你可以输入你的能源数据。
You can put in your energy data.
你无需告诉我们你是谁。
You don't have to tell us who you are.
您无需向我们提供联系方式。
You don't have to give us your contact information.
您可以查看自己家或客户家的分析结果。
You can see the results for your home or for your customer's home.
如果您是承包商，想了解具体情况，非常欢迎您来试用体验。
If you're a contractor and you wanna see what this looks like, I'd love for you to just come play with it.
表格末尾设有反馈渠道供您填写意见。
There is a way for you to put in feedback at the end of the form.
如果您能分享想法，那将是我今天最大的快乐。
And if you tell us what you think, that would make my day.
对于尚未覆盖地区的朋友，我们很想知道您是否对此感兴趣。
For folks where we don't have coverage yet, like, I'd love to know that you're interested in it.
我们优先在民众有需求咨询的州推出服务，所以目前覆盖的州比较分散。
Like, we're rolling it out first to states where we've seen people asking about it, and so that's why it's an eclectic set of states.
如果您觉得这项服务有价值，欢迎通过官网联系我们。
So if this sounds like something that would be valuable to you, like, wanna hear from you, you can hit the contact us on our website.
它会传到我这里。
It will come to me.
它会发送到我的邮箱。
It comes to my email.
所以，我要借用埃里克在节目开始前说过的话。
So, yeah, I'm gonna steal what Eric said before the show.
关键在于，我们的测量设备所做的不是猜测墙内情况，而是实际测量家庭的能源使用情况，我们能真实看到家庭的用电负荷。
The bottom line here is that their mentor what it's doing is instead of guessing about what's inside the walls, we're measuring the real energy use of the home, and we can see the real loads of the home.
就像埃里克在节目开始前说的，这就像有人仅凭车龄就问你的汽车里程数。
And like Eric put it before the show, it's kinda like if someone asked you about the mileage in your car just by telling them how old the car is.
如果有人对你说'哦，你的车十年了，肯定跑了5万英里'，这根本说不通。
If someone said to you like, oh, your car is ten years old, you've definitely got 50,000 miles on it, it just doesn't make any sense.
对吧？
Right?
因为不同的人用车频率不同。
Because different people drive their cars different amounts.
房屋也是同样的道理。
Homes are the same way.
我们无法看到墙内的情况。
We can't see what's inside the walls.
我们不清楚那栋房子的具体状况。
We don't know what's going on with that house.
你可以采用类似Manual J的模型，它对墙内情况做出假设。
And you can do a model like the manual j, which makes assumptions about what's inside the walls.
但我们实际测量的是房屋真实的能源使用情况，这直接关系到它需要多少供暖和制冷。
But what we're doing is measuring how that home really uses energy, which is directly related to how much heating and cooling it needs.
很好的类比。
Good analogy.
感谢各位的合作。
Thanks for the collab there, guys.
谢谢你，埃里克。
Thank you, Eric.
不客气。
You're very welcome.
我很期待看到这个项目的发展方向，因为我认为我们对现有房屋的实时分析是行业发展的正确方向。
I'm excited to see where this goes and see what happens because I think our real time analysis on existing houses is a good direction for the industry to head.
把展示说明放在联系表单里，还有白皮书和网站上，应该就这些了。
Put show notes in the contact form, the white papers, the website, and that should be it.
希望我们能为你那边带来一些关注，帮助你在发展道路上更进一步。
Hopefully, we get some traction in your direction, and it helps you along the path.
希望如此。
I hope so.
和你们交谈很愉快。
It's been good to talk to you guys.
谢谢邀请我参加。
Thanks for having me.
我也是。
Same here.
保持联系，马克斯。
Keep in touch, Max.
领英。
LinkedIn.
你也在领英上。
You're on LinkedIn too.
我也在领英上。
I'm on LinkedIn too.
你可以在那里找到我。
You can find me there.
好的。
Okay.
我们会把这个加进去的。
We'll put that in there.
在我们结束之前，对听众还有什么最后的想法或建议吗？
As we're closing out here, any final thoughts or words of wisdom for our listeners?
好的。
Yes.
最后有什么想说的吗？
Final thoughts?
智慧箴言？
Words of wisdom?
如果你要买新的暖通空调系统，务必做好负荷计算。
Make sure you get load calculations if you're buying a new HVAC system.
没错。
Yeah.
要知道大家现在都很保守。
Just know that everyone's being really conservative.
你应该没问题的。
You'll probably be okay.
好的。
Okay.
很好的结束语，我觉得。
Good final thought there, I think.
非常好。
Very good.
再次感谢你的参与，Max。
Thanks for coming on again, Max.
还有，Elke，一如既往，很高兴能与你线上会面。
And, Elke, as always, pleasure virtually meeting with you.
我也是。
Likewise.
保重，把听众们的耳朵还给他们吧。
Take care, and give our listeners back their ears.
谢谢大家。
Thanks, folks.
感谢你们收听本期建筑暖通科学播客。
We appreciate you tuning in and listening to this episode of the Building HVAC Science Podcast.
嘿。
Hey.
您可以通过访问我们的播客页面给我们留言。
You can leave us a voice mail by going to our podcast page.
网址是Building HVAC Science，allsquashedtogether.com，然后点击右下角的麦克风图标。
That's Building HVAC Science, allsquashedtogether.com, and clicking on the microphone in the lower right hand corner.
我们也鼓励您无论使用哪个平台都能给予评论和反馈，并希望您喜欢我们的内容。
We also encourage you to give comments and feedback no matter what platform you use and hopefully enjoy our content.
如果您有任何问题或想推荐话题，可以联系marketing@trutechtools.com，网址是trutechtools.com。
If you have any questions or wanna suggest the topic, you can reach out to marketing at tru tech tools dot com, trutechtools.com.
我们讨论的某些话题需要专业技术培训才能正确理解或安全操作。
Some of the topics we discuss require technical training for proper interpretation or safe execution.
所以如果您是受过培训的专业人士，可以立即行动。
So if you're a trained pro, you can proceed immediately.
如果不是，请咨询专业人士并雇佣他们。
If not, please consult with a pro and hire one.
《建筑暖通科学》播客由Tru Tech Tools有限公司制作，完全披露一下，我是Tru Tech的所有者。
The Building HVAC Science Podcast and production of Tru Tech Tools Limited and full disclosure, I'm the owner of Tru Tech.
节目中表达的各种观点——无论是我的嘉宾、我的共同主持人还是我本人的观点——当然都归属于发言者本人。
The opinion opinions, ex opinions, opinions, out opinions, opinions expressed by those of my guests, my cohost, and myself, they belong to them depending on who's speaking, of course.
我这次真的搞砸了，不过没关系。
I am really messing this one up, but this is okay.
如果您需要购买我们播客中提到的工具或测试仪器，请访问trutechtools.com查看产品，并使用优惠码HVACBS享受折扣。
If you're in the market for some tools or test instruments mentioned in our podcast, please look at what trutechtools.com offers, trutechtools.com, and you can use the offer code HVACBS for a nice discount.
市面上有许多优质的行业资源，这里仅列举部分高质量的HVAC相关资源：HVAC Overtime、HVACR视频、HVAC Grapevine、homediagnosis.tv、AC Service Tech Measure Quick、HVA Chicks、The Misfits of HVAC、HVACR School、HVAC Shop Talk、Stephen Rairdon、HVACR Reefer Guy、Tool Pros以及Service Business Mastery。
There's a lot of great trade related resources out there, and this is just a short list of quality HVAC, HVAC Overtime, HVACR videos, the HVAC Grapevine, homediagnosis.tv, AC Service Tech Measure Quick, HVA Chicks, The Misfits of HVAC, HVACR School, HVAC Shop Talk, Stephen Rairdon, HVACR Reefer Guy, Tool Pros and Service Business Mastery.
请务必关注这些资源渠道和行业领袖，通过他们获取更多知识，拓宽您在建筑科学和暖通空调领域的视野。
Please consider listening to those sources, those resources, those influencers to gain more knowledge and improve your perspective of building science and HVAC.
在下次节目之前，愿您度过一段美好的时光。
And until next time, we hope you have a great series of days between now and the next time you hear our podcast.
这个结尾怎么样？
How's that for an ending?
保重。
Take care.
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