第250期：超越设备——埃里克和比尔关于250期暖通空调与建筑科学的反思（2025年12月）

嘿。

Hey.

欢迎回到建筑暖通空调科学。

Welcome back to Building HVAC Science.

今天的这一集来了个反转。

This episode today flips the script.

这是第250期节目，自2017年以来已播出250期。

It's episode two fifty, two five zero, 250 podcasts since 2017.

在这一集中，我们的新高级市场经理珍妮·阿伯特对埃里克和我进行了采访。

This episode, Jenny Abert, our new senior marketing manager, interviews Eric and I.

我们只是聊了很多事情。

And we just talk about a lot of things.

珍妮提出了一些非常深入的问题。

Jenny brings up some very thoughtful questions.

埃里克和我给出了相当深刻的回答。

Eric and I give some pretty thoughtful answers.

那么，不多说了，我们直接进入这场对话吧。

And without further ado, let's just get into that conversation.

大家好。

Hey, everybody.

欢迎回到《建筑暖通空调科学》播客。

Welcome back to the Building HVAC Science Podcast.

我是埃里克。

Eric here.

比尔就在那边。

Bill right over there.

今天我们要有一位特邀采访者。

And we have a guest interviewer today.

我们请来了珍妮·阿伯特。

We have Jenny Abert with us.

珍妮，我们把话筒交给你了。

And, Jenny, we're gonna turn it over to you.

珍妮是我们新任的高级市场经理。

Jenny is our new senior marketing manager.

所以，珍妮，你开始吧。

So, Jenny, take it away.

对于还不了解我的人，我们先花一点时间做个自我介绍。

So for those of you who don't know me, before we jump in, I'm gonna take a quick second to introduce myself.

正如埃里克所说，我叫珍妮。

Like Eric said, my name is Jenny.

我是TrueTech Tools的市场经理。

I'm the marketing manager at TrueTech Tools.

稍微介绍一下我的背景，我最初并不是来自技术行业，但不得不说，这个行业确实有一种魅力，能让人不知不觉被吸引。

And a little bit of background, I didn't actually come from the trades originally, but I will say the industry definitely has a way of pulling you in.

到目前为止，我遇到的每个人都非常关心行业里的人，注重正确地做事，而不仅仅是追求速度，关注舒适性、性能，以及你们所使用工具和设备背后的更大图景。

Everybody that I've met so far care a lot about people in the industry and doing things the right way, not just the fast way, and about comfort performance and really the bigger picture behind the tools and the equipments that you use.

这也正是这个播客如此特别的原因。

And that's what makes this podcast so special.

所以，在第250期节目中，我觉得是时候反转一下，让主持人坐到嘉宾的位置上了。

So for the two hundred and fiftieth episode, it felt right to flip the script and put the host in the guest seat.

那我们开始吧？

So should we get started?

好的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Alright.

这将会很有趣、很特别，而且感觉有点颠倒。

This is gonna be fun and interesting and backwards feeling.

所以第250期真的意义重大。

So episode two fifty is a really big deal.

如果你要回溯到某一集，比如第一集，和我们现在相比，有没有什么关于建筑、这个行业，甚至是你自己，是你当初没想到的？

If you had to think back to one episode, like episode one and where we are now, is there anything that you didn't know about buildings, the industry, or even yourself?

我得让比尔来回答这个问题，因为我是在这之后才加入的。

I'm gonna have to let Bill take that one because I didn't join until much later in this.

比尔是全程参与了这250期的人。

Bill's the guy that's been around for the whole two fifty.

是的。

Yeah.

2017年，布莱恩·奥格说服我做了这个节目，并帮助我起步。

So back in 2017, Brian Org talked me into doing this and helped me get started.

起初，我学到最多的是如何通过节目中众多的嘉宾或演讲者，营造一个舒适的氛围——一些技巧、一些测量方法，以及我之前忽略的东西。

And first, I think what I learned a lot about was how to create a comfortable environment through a lot of the speakers or guests that we had on the show, some techniques, some measurements, some things that I overlooked.

我就举罗伯特·比恩的例子吧。

I'll just say Robert Bean.

他来过节目好几次。

He's been on the show a couple times.

关于平均辐射温度，以及整体的人体舒适度。

Mean radiant temperature and just overall, like, human comfort.

我觉得这些对话中蕴含着大量价值，我正是用它们来建造我现在的家。

And I'll say that there's a lot of value in those conversations that I use to build the house that I live in.

太棒了。

Super cool.

唐，有没有一个从节目中获得的信念或收获改变了你的想法？

Is there one belief or takeaway from the show that's since changed your mind, Don?

这可能不完全符合你的问题，但我已经听过或看到很多关于它对一些我原本没想到的人产生影响的对话和评论。

This might not be totally on point with your question, but I think I've heard enough or seen a lot of conversations and comments about it being impactful for individuals that I wouldn't have thought.

起初，我做这个是为了满足我对多个不同主题的好奇心，但我收到的反馈是，这部分内容帮助人们保持对行业的参与，学习新知识，并被我们‘为人们做得更好’的宗旨所吸引。

At first, I was doing it to fulfill my curiosity in a number of different topics, but the feedback that I've received is this, in part, this helps people stay engaged with the industry, learn new things, and be attracted to our thesis of doing better for people.

我想说，在与嘉宾交谈后，我可能对几件事改变了看法。

I would say there's possibly a few things that I've changed views on after talking to guests.

更多是扩展了我的观点，我认为，以及我所知道的事情。

More just expanding my views, I think, and the things that I do know.

我不会说我对任何事情完全反转了立场。

I wouldn't say a complete one eighty on anything that I've had.

随着我的经历，我只是扩展和调整了一些不同的东西，这正是我对待这个行业以及我在舒适行业整体时间的方式：我从某个观点出发，随着学到的任何东西不断扩展、改变和成长。

It's just expanded and modified some different things as I've gone through, which is how I approach the industry and my time in the comfort industry as a whole is I start out with something and I expand and change and grow with anything that I learn, really.

也许这个问题该问Elk，但Bill，你也欢迎分享你的看法。

And maybe this is a question for Elk, but, Bill, feel free to also give your take.

有没有一个简单的概念反复出现，却是我们家居舒适度的根本所在？

Is there a simple concept that keeps coming up again and again but is really at the root of comfort for our homes?

我认为，对于任何家居舒适、建筑舒适，或者说室内舒适而言，人们能学到的最深刻的概念之一，就是热量的传递——热量如何通过材料传导，如何在材料与居住在其中的人体之间传递。我认为，这一点是那些负责进入建筑、维持建筑和居住者舒适与健康的技术人员尚未充分理解的核心概念。

I think really one of the deepest concepts that people can learn for any home comfort, building comfort, whatever that is, indoor comfort, is really the transfer of heat and how heat transfers through materials, how heat transfers between the materials and the humans that occupy those materials and occupy on the inside of that, I think that's really one of the biggest concepts that is, I'll say not understood deeply enough by the technicians that are charged with going in and keeping the buildings comfortable and keeping the occupants comfortable and healthy?

我意识到，这背后还有一个相关的延伸点，那就是材料对热量和湿度的保留。

Something I realized that's part of that expands on just a little bit is the retention of heat in materials and humidity in materials.

我以前从未真正重视过这一点，而这些因素常常被忽视。

That's something I never really appreciated that much and how that can they're often like elements not thought of.

你只是想着，哦，我们只需要处理好空气就行，但实际上，材料和人都是整个舒适系统中不可或缺的部分。

You're just thinking about, oh, there's just this air that we gotta take care of, but it's the materials too and the people that are all part of this whole comfort equation.

你认为，房屋建造过程中承包商与前来维修的技术人员之间缺乏沟通，是否因为所用材料而导致了家居舒适度的问题？

Do you think it's the lack of communication between building the house, the contractor to the tech who comes to service it, do you think that plays a role in the comfort in our homes because of the materials used?

我真心觉得，这归根结底还是技术人员的心态问题。

I really think it just comes back to our mindset as technicians.

我们真的想深入探讨一些细节问题，有时又想追求一些炫酷的东西，但常常忽略了扎实地掌握基础知识。

We really want to dive into nitty gritty things, and sometimes we wanna dive into flashy things, and we really forget to go through the basics well a lot of times.

要为人们提供良好的舒适度，关键在于将建筑视为一个系统，而我们安装在其中的机械系统、暖通空调系统只是这个大系统中的一个组成部分。

And supplying good comfort to people comes back to looking at the building the house as a system, and the mechanical systems, the HVAC systems we put into that larger system are just a single component.

我认为这源于我们的思维模式：嘿。

And I think it just comes from our mindset of, hey.

我需要去修理这台设备，或者解决这个东西的问题，而不是退一步，把整个系统在脑海中构建并可视化出来。

I need to go fix this piece of equipment, or I need to fix whatever this thing is rather than stepping back and being able to build that whole system into our heads or into our minds and visualize that.

我认为，多年来这种观念一直自上而下地传递，很多人从未真正教授过‘整个建筑是一个系统、结构是一个系统、房屋是一个系统’这种理念。

And that is, I think, just been a trickle down effect over the years where a lot of people haven't really taught that whole building is a system, structure is a system, house is a system technique.

我想补充一下，你所描述的这一切非常出色。

I'd like to add to that with what you're describing is fantastic.

这是一个需要时间的深思熟虑的过程——需要时间学习、需要时间积累经验，因为情况并不总是一成不变，还需要时间去执行。

It's a thoughtful process that takes time, both time to learn, time to experience because it doesn't always go the same way, and then time to execute.

但这些只是桌子的一侧。

But that's, like, on one side of the table.

桌子的另一边是花费的时间太长了。

The other side of the table is it takes too much time.

要么是时间压力，要么是财务压力。

There's either time pressure or financial pressure.

把它拆掉换新的，或者就那样做吧。

Tear it out and replace it or just do that.

直接重复之前有效的方法。

Just iterate something that worked maybe before.

这是一个非常有趣的观点，确实值得牢记，因为无论做什么工作，我从未遇到过没有时间或财务压力的情况，技术人员无论做什么都必须考虑这个问题。

It's a very interesting point, and it's definitely one to keep in mind because there is always, I'll say, I've never had a job where there wasn't either time or financial pressure in some way going out to work on a job, and that is always a thought process that a technician has to go through no matter what they're doing.

所以这是非常明智和宝贵的见解。

So very wise and good insight there.

作为技术人员，我花了很长时间才在实践中学会这些。

I'll say it took me as a technician a long time to learn these things in the field.

甚至我早期的导师，我认为也没有真正理解这一点。

And even my early instructors, I don't think, had a really good grasp of that.

我认为，随着行业的发展，这正是我加入TrueTech时比尔和我深入讨论过的一个方面：我们都有一个共同的目标，那就是将行业的多个部分连接起来，让彼此真正理解对方。

And I think that as the industry is progressing, and this was a piece that Bill and I really talked about when I joined TrueTech was both of us had this shared goal of connecting multiple parts of the industry together so that they really understood each other.

我认为这些行业还没有真正从整体系统角度去思考，因此需要一些时间来培养这种意识。

And I don't think that the industries have really thought about the whole system in general, So it takes some time to grow that.

但就我的职业生涯而言，这种趋势正在迅速加速。

But I'll say over my career, that is rapidly accelerating.

即使从你的角度看我似乎微不足道，但变化速度非常快。

Even though I'm looking small from your perspective, it's moving fast.

确实如此。

It is.

是的。

Yes.

同样地，行业中还有哪些方面正在快速变化，尤其是在改进和提升方面？

On that same token, what else is moving fast in the industry as far as improvements and enhancements?

你认为还有哪些概念真正得到了改善？

Are there any other concepts that you feel like have really improved?

我来补充一下。

I'll add.

我认为计算能力的提升非常显著，无论是在工地或办公室的手中设备，还是利用人工智能快速掌握某个主题，无论是学习还是消化信息。

I think the improvement in computing horsepower, both what you can have in your hand on a job site or on your desk in your office, and the use of AI to help quickly move through a topic, either learning a topic or digesting information.

比如，具体来说，使用内置LiDAR的iPad进行负荷计算、扫描空间，并快速建立模型，以便正确确定供暖或制冷设备的尺寸。

So, like, specific things like using iPads with LiDAR in them to do load calculations, to scan a space, and to quickly build a model so that you can correctly size the heating or cooling equipment.

我认为这将继续迭代，发展出更多种类和版本的工具，把更强大的工具交到人们手中，以完成更出色的工作，这就是计算能力的提升。

And I think that's gonna continue to iterate into more varieties and versions of doing better and better putting tools in the hands to do better work, so computing horsepower.

是的。

Yeah.

我想进一步说明，计算能力的提升体现在工具之间的互联性。

I would expand on the computing horsepower to be the interconnectedness of tools.

我刚入行时，我们所有的设备，无论是什么读数，都必须手动逐项记录下来。

When I started in the trade, everything we had, whether it was a whatever readout it was to us, we had to write down literally every single reading.

作为技术人员，我们面临挑战：要么把所有数据写下来，要么试图记住它们，从某种角度去记忆脑海中的变化，或在脑海中同时可视化变化，或尝试记录信息。

And as a technician, we were challenged with writing all this down or trying to sometimes memorize it, look at it in a way that we could memorize changes in our mind or visualize simultaneous changes in our mind or try to write down information.

有了这些互联的工具和多样化的显示方式，我们现在能够将多个读数集中显示在同一个屏幕上，进行记录、数据记录、绘图，或者让我们在智能设备上使用的软件帮助处理这些信息，这极大地改变了我们的工作环境——无论是建筑检测还是暖通空调系统评估，所有这些方面都得到了提升，使我们能够更快、更准确、更及时地获取并处理信息，从而帮助技术人员做出更好的决策，并更有效地向客户和最终用户沟通潜在的问题和解决方案。

And with the connected tools and the differing displays that we have now, being able to bring multiple readings onto one screen and maybe record it or data log it or graph it or have that software that we're using on a smart device or whatever that might be help to process all that information is a massive change in our workspace, whether it be testing buildings, whether it be evaluating an HVAC system, all of that has had these improvements to it to where we can get that information, get it processed faster, get it processed much more accurately in a very timely fashion, which enables us as technicians to make better decisions and communicate to customers better, communicate to those end users better about potential problems and potential solutions.

说到潜在的解决方案，我刚得知我家装的是热泵。

Speaking of potential solutions, I actually just learned that my house has a heat pump.

哦。

Oh.

所以我想知道，目前人们对热泵最大的误解是什么？你认为它们在哪些方面真正具有优势？

So I'm wondering, what is the biggest misunderstanding that still exists about heat pumps, and where do you feel that they actually can be beneficial?

我先说吧。

I'll go first.

要理解热泵的出风温度低于燃烧式炉灶，因此单位时间内输出的能量较少，所以需要让热泵运行更长时间。特别是如果你使用的是变频机型，它可能会几乎持续低速运行，而在接近设计温度时，则可能持续以最高输出运行——这两种情况都是好事。

Understanding that the output temperature is lower than a combustion fired furnace, and because of that, there's actually, like, less energy content that's gonna come out over a period of time, so expect them to run a longer period of time, and especially if you have something that's variable speed, it may run at low level almost continuously, and then when it gets near its design temperature, it may run continuously at the highest output, both of which are good things.

它正在按照设计的运行范围工作，所以我认为，对于消费者来说，热泵与传统单级设备那种开关式的运行模式不同，可能会让他们感到困惑，尤其是变频热泵。

It's operating in the range that it's been intended to operate, so I think the onoff nature of single stage equipment for consumers is something that heat pumps may befuddle them, especially variable speed heat pumps.

你觉得你的误解是什么？

What do you think yours is?

让我感到困惑。

Considered me befuddled.

前几天晚上特别冷，我的热泵一直在运行。

We just had a really cold night the other night, and my heat pump ran continuously.

我吓坏了，以为我们用了太多电，或者出了什么问题。

And I was panicking thinking that we were using too much energy or there was something wrong.

于是我立刻上网查找原因，结果发现一切正常。

And so immediately, I take to the Internet to tell me, and it turns out everything was working right.

我觉得你刚刚提到了一个关键点，那就是期望值。

I think you just alluded to a big thing there, which is expectations.

这不仅是终端用户的期望问题，从行业技术人员的角度来看，挑战还在于不仅要懂得如何设置控制装置，有时还要正确接线，并向终端用户解释其运行方式。

Is not only end user expectations, a challenge that the industry from an industry technician point of view is not only knowing how to set the controls up, but wiring those controls up sometimes and then communicating to an end user how it's going to operate.

以你的例子来说，珍妮，你刚买了一套房子，之前从未住过。

And for your example, Jenny, you just bought a house, and you've never been in this house before.

所以你根本不知道这套系统应该如何运行，而技术人员也很难向你解释清楚。

So you have no idea what to expect about how this is supposed to operate, and it's hard for a technician to communicate that to you.

现在你要去上网查一查。

Now you're gonna go take to the Internet.

你也可以打电话问朋友。

You may phone a friend.

你可以给同事打个电话，说：嘿。

You may call a colleague and say, hey.

这儿到底怎么回事？

What's going on here?

你在那里也可能学到很多东西。

And you might learn a lot there too.

但要保持良好的舒适度，需要采用不同的策略来设置控制装置、选择设备并配置设备。

But there's different strategies to keep good comfort with regards to setting up the controls and selecting the equipment, configuring the equipment.

而我们的燃气炉通常非常容易安装，接线也很简单。

Whereas our gas furnaces were typically very simple to hook up, very simple to wire up.

这是一个非常可重复的过程，但热泵就不一定了，如果你更换品牌、尺寸或房屋，情况可能就不同。

They were a very repeatable process where heat pumps aren't always the same if you switch brands or you switch sizes or you switch houses.

它们与控制系统连接时稍微复杂一些。

They're a little bit more complex to make those connections with the control systems.

实际上，用户需要了解更多的知识才能正确操作它们。

And really, there's a little bit more that a homeowner needs to know in order to operate them.

因此，它们不像燃气炉那样即插即用，燃气炉只需开启和关闭，一直运行加热即可。

So they're not quite as plug and play as just a gas furnace that turned on and off and just ran the heat all the time.

因此，使用热泵时，您通常会拥有多个热源，尤其是在我们所居住的寒冷环境中。

So with that heat pump, you're typically gonna have multiple sources of heat, especially in the colder environments that we live in.

我们再为您节省一次网络搜索。

And we'll save you another Internet search.

冬天看到它冒出蒸汽时，并不是在燃烧。

When you see steam coming off it in the winter, it's not burning up.

这很有用。

Good to know.

它正在进入除霜模式。

It's going through defrost mode.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以别打911。

So don't call 911.

明白了吗？

Got it?

不。

No.

不。

No.

好的。

Okay.

这个我知道了。

That's good to know.

实际上，我家还有第二个热源。

We actually do have a second source of heat in my house.

这是一个真正的壁炉，我小时候主要的取暖方式就是地下室里的木柴壁炉。

It's a real fireplace, And that's actually what I grew up with as my main source of heat is a wood fireplace in the basement.

所以，持续供暖是我从小就习惯的。

So constant heat is something that I grew up used to.

后来我们改用暖气炉时，我爸爸总是会谈论暖气炉每次开启的时间有多长。

And then when we did switch to the furnace, the on and off, my dad would always talk about the length of time it was on.

因此，听到设备持续运行对我来说是个很大的警示，因为我并不知道自己不知道什么。

So hearing something run continuously was like a huge red flag to me because I didn't know what I didn't know.

结果发现这其实是好事，但我想我们可能得回到我爸爸所说的‘康科德露营’模式，砍些木头来给壁炉取暖。

Turns out it was a good thing, but I think we're gonna have to go back to what my dad would call as Camp Concord and chop up some wood for that fireplace.

你将有机会体验使用热泵的生活，而且很可能还会了解到燃气暖气炉和热泵之间的某些差异。

You're gonna get to learn how it is to live with a heat pump, and you're probably gonna get to learn some differences between, like, a gas furnace and that heat pump.

不过，你眼前正好有两位非常好的资源，可以为你提供这些知识。

You do happen to have a couple of really good resources sitting right here in front of you for that knowledge, though.

所以

So

是的。

Yeah.

但是，埃里克，她可能在晚上11点半、12点甚至午夜还在搜索，那时候她已经忙完了一天，而你却在想这些事。

But, Eric, she might be out there searching, like, 11:30, twelve p, midnight when she's got, like, the end of the day, and you're thinking about these things.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

当晚上11点半左右恐慌袭来时，我不会给你打电话，但第二天我会问你。

When the panic sets in at about 11:30PM, I'm not gonna call you, but I will ask you the next day.

好的。

Okay.

我的意思是，我会接这个电话。

I mean, I'll take that call.

在我职业生涯的大部分时间里，我都接过这样的电话。

I've taken those calls for pretty much most of my career.

如果我的电话响了，我一定会接。

And if my phone rings, I'm gonna take that call.

你真是个好人。

You're a good man.

最常见的被误认为是设备问题，实则为系统或建筑问题的是什么？

What is one of the most common problems that's identified as an equipment problem that really is a system or building problem?

哦，你刚才提到的设备运行时间，其实就属于这种情况。

Oh, I'll say you kind of alluded there to run time on an equipment.

当我们为房屋安装暖通空调设备，或供暖、制冷设备时，我说的不仅仅是这些，但此时我们还没谈到通风，而是供暖或空调设备。空间始终在散失或吸收热量，除非与外界温度达到平衡。

When we put in HVAC equipment into a house or heating or cooling equipment, I'll say not just that, but we're not really talking about ventilation there at that point, but heating or air conditioning equipment, The space is constantly either losing or gaining heat unless there's an equilibrium with outside temperature.

关于这个问题，我们可以从两个方向来探讨。

And we can go two ways with this.

首先，我们必须了解在特定的所谓设计温度下，这个空间会获得或损失多少热量，然后我们需要选择与之匹配的设备。

We first, we have to understand how much heat that space is gonna gain or lose at a specific, what we call, design temperature, and then we have to match equipment to that.

如果计算中使用了错误的数据，或者该建筑存在某些特殊情况。

And if the wrong things are put into that calculation or if there's something that's different about that building.

比如说，某个房间没有保温，或者房间的一部分没有保温。

Maybe say it wasn't insulated in one room or part of a room wasn't insulated.

也许有人没有在墙壁或天花板上安装保温材料，导致这个房间非常不舒服。

Maybe somebody didn't put insulation in the walls or the ceiling of a room, and that room is actually really uncomfortable.

很多人会说，嘿。

Well, a lot of people will say, hey.

我只需要在这个房间里增加更多热量，或者增加更多制冷。

I just need more heat in this room or I need more cooling in this room.

但他们没有退一步意识到，这并不是设备问题。

And they don't step back to realize it's not an equipment problem.

而是一个建筑问题，但如果不拆墙、亲自进去查看，或者使用一些额外的诊断设备和工具来找出更深层的问题，他们是看不到墙后的情况的。

It's a building problem, but they can't see that in behind the walls without either tearing things out, physically getting in there to look at that, or maybe using some extra diagnostic equipment and tools to figure out what that deeper problem is.

而且，原始设计可能根本没有深入分析，去了解实际情况。

And it's possible that the original design did not peel back the layers, so to speak, to know what was going on.

通常，我家里的阁楼、车库上方的家庭房间、家庭房间的斜墙以及地板，都与下方寒冷的车库空间相连。

Typically, and I had this one at my houses, was the frog, the family room over the garage, and the knee walls in that family room, and also the floor, and how they were connected to the cold garage space beneath them.

我脑海中仍保留着一幅生动的画面，这源于多年前Knoff保温材料的一次宣传，画面中红色渗出，就像冬天里看着你的房子在不断‘流血’，流失热量。

There was a great image still in my head, this goes back to a campaign, I believe it was Knoff insulation had, a number of years ago was bleeding red, and it's like the thermal image of watching your house bleed red, bleed heat in the wintertime.

我认为，很多承包商甚至大多数消费者都没有意识到，真正关键的是空气的流动，而不是保温层的厚度，因为热量正是通过空气流动传递的。

And I think one of the things, maybe even I'd say a lot of contractors, but most of consumers don't realize it's the movement of air versus the layers of insulation that make a huge difference because that's where the heat gets transferred.

因此，空气泄漏的概念、鼓风门测试、每小时换气次数，这些都应该是设备设计的系统输入参数。

So this air leakage idea, blower door testing, air changes per hour, that's a system input to your should be a system input to the design of your equipment.

但这些因素常常被忽视、忽略，或者只是被错误估算。

Oftentimes, it's overlooked, neglected, or maybe just misestimated.

这又回到了埃里克关于保温的前三条规则。

And that goes back to Eric's first three rules of insulating.

保温的前三条规则就是：密封空气、密封空气、再密封空气。

And those first three rules of insulating are air seal, air seal, and air seal.

因为如果你不密封空气，大多数保温材料都将毫无作用，尤其是最常见的玻璃纤维保温材料。

Because if you don't air seal, the insulation most insulation is not gonna do any good, especially if it's fiberglass, which is the most common insulation out there.

那么，正在收听本节目或阅读文字的房主们，可以采取哪些措施来实现空气密封呢？

So what can homeowners listening to this or text suggest that are listening to this today that people can do to air seal?

我们能控制和改进哪些方面，让我们的家变得更舒适一些？

What can we control and step up and try to make our homes a little bit more comfortable?

在不了解具体情况的情况下，我很难给出具体的建议，因为那样可能会花费不少钱。

I hesitate to suggest anything specific without knowing something because that can get expensive.

网上有很多关于密封窗户等的建议，因为这些地方很容易接触到，大多数房主都可以自己动手处理。

There's a lot of recommendations out there about air sealing windows and things like that because those are really easy to access, and most homeowners can do that.

如果你的窗户确实非常差，那可能是个不错的选择。

And if you have really, really bad windows, that might not be a bad idea.

在窗户上贴一层塑料膜。

Put a layer of plastic over them.

如果风从窗户里吹进来——比如刮风时，你能明显感觉到风从缝隙中吹入，或者如果你是技术人员，用便携式烟雾发生器靠近窗户，能清楚看到烟雾被吹入，那么在内侧紧贴固定一层塑料膜可能会带来很大帮助。

If there's wind blowing through them, like if the wind's blowing and you can walk up and feel that wind blowing through, or if you're a tech and you've got a handheld smoke generator and you can take that smoke generator up there and you can see that wind blowing through, a plastic sheet on the inside fastened tight may be a really big help.

但由于建筑中热压效应和冷热空气相互作用的方式，窗户往往并不是最大的漏气点。

But because of the way stack effect and hot air and cold air interact in buildings, a lot of times the windows aren't going to be our biggest leakage point.

尽管这些地方很容易接触到，但如果它们没有明显的空气泄漏，其改善效果可能并没有我们想象的那么大。

Despite being really easy to access, they may not help quite as much as we think in if they don't have those immediate air leakage through them.

因此，你真的应该使用像鼓风门这样的工具进行房屋气密性测试，并配合手持烟雾发生器或热成像仪，来可视化这些泄漏点的位置。

So you really should look at doing some testing with a tool like a blower door to do a house leakage test, and pair that up with some kind of a handheld smoke generator possibly, a thermal camera to visualize where those leaks are.

当然，热成像仪有其局限性，因为室内外必须存在温差才能发挥作用。

Now that thermal cameras, of course, have limitations because you have to have a temperature differential between indoors and outdoors.

我们有个朋友就是吃了这个亏，对吧，比尔？

We have a good friend that learned that the hard way, don't we, Bill?

他和他父亲去查看一栋房子，结果室内外温度相同，他们还是拿出了热成像仪。

He and his dad went and looked at a house, and it was the same temperature indoors and out, and they put a thermal camera on it.

天啊，看起来效果不错。

Man, it looked great.

因为没有温差，所以没有热传递的驱动力。

There's no tree transfer feeds because there's no driving force.

是的。

Yeah.

所以没有驱动力，但在他们所查看的墙体、屋顶或其他结构的整个组件中。

So there's no driving force, but across that assembly of the wall or the roof or whatever they were looking at.

所以它看起来可能非常好，但这是一种虚假的安全感。

So it can look really great, but that's a false sense of security there.

我们邀请过几位嘉宾来到播客中，帮助消费者理解这一点并建立相关思维。

And we've had a couple guests on the podcast who can help texting consumers understand this and build up the thinking here.

一个是内特·亚当斯，他有一个网站叫‘内特：房屋低语者’，还写了一本书叫《家居舒适指南》，True Tech 也在销售这本书，但你也可以从‘内特：房屋低语者’网站上获取大量免费信息。

One is Nate Adams, and he has a website, Nate the House Whisperer, and a book called Home Comfort Book that actually True Tech resells True too, but you can get a lot of free information off Nate the House Whisperer.

另一个是埃里克·乔治，他是在四月份刚做过的嘉宾。

Eric George is the other one, more recent cast back in April.

访问 homecomfort.com。

Learn homecomfort.com.

他制作了许多视频，进行大量培训，也做了一些视频播客。

He's got a number of videos where he does a lot of training, and he does some video podcasting too.

他邀请了一些嘉宾参与。

He has some guests on.

所以有几个很好的资源，可以听到人们讨论我们这里讨论的基本内容。

So there's a couple great sources to hear people talking about the basics of our discussion here.

我们也不要忘了科贝特。

And let's not forget about Corbett too.

科贝特·伦斯福德。

Corbett Lunsford.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

Homediagnosis.tv。

Homediagnosis.tv.

对。

Yeah.

这是个不错的资源。

That's a good one.

这三者都是获取知识的好资源。

All three good resources for knowledge.

但如果你不知道空气是从哪里泄漏的，即使做了大量的气密性工作，也可能收效甚微。

But you can go through and do a lot of work at air sealing and not make a big difference if you don't know where that air is leaking through.

你可能会花很多时间却收获甚微，而如果在前期做一些简单的测试，就能让你学到很多。

You can spend a lot of time for very little effort, and doing a little bit of testing on the head end can educate you a lot.

对于消费者来说，还有HomeBoost。

And for consumers, home boost.

她也是播客的嘉宾，塞琳娜·塔巴卡瓦拉。

She was also a guest on the podcast, Selena Tabakawala.

塞琳娜·塔巴卡瓦拉。

Selena Tabakawala.

这是一个你可以借用热成像仪，并将数据发送给能源专家以分析你家中情况的产品。

That's a product where you actually can borrow a thermal imager and send the data to an energy expert to review what's going on in your house.

这正是埃里克所提到的：在你全面投入维修之前，需要专家来审视一下。

And that's the kind of thing that Eric's talking about, is it needs some expert eyes to look at before you begin going full bore with fixes.

酷。

Cool.

所以，除非你的窗户有风漏或裂缝，否则不妨先停一停。

So unless there's a draft or a crack in your window, maybe take a pause.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

如果你能看到光，这么说吧，白天能看到室外的光透进来，那就说明有洞。

If you can see light, put it that way, you can see outdoor light coming in in the daytime, yeah, you've got a hole.

不是透过玻璃本身。

Not through the panes of glass.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

除了透过玻璃之外。

Other than through glass.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你家里是单层玻璃窗，那肯定不是一个好的隔热层。

And if you've got something like a single pane window in there, that's definitely not gonna be a good thermal break.

如果你有良好的双层玻璃窗，并且里面还充满气体，那密封性就相当好。

If you've got a good double pane window and it still has the gas in it, it's fairly tight.

或者如果你听力敏锐，我就在我女儿家里做过这样的测试。

Or if you have sensitive ears, and I've done this in my daughter's house.

她家是1960年建的。

It was built in 1960.

她有一些窗框窗扇，没有正确扣紧，留有缝隙。

She had some sash windows that didn't latch correctly, and there was a gap.

我能在一间房里听到外面的声音，却在另一间房里听不到，因为她家靠近街道。

I could hear the outside in one room and not hear the outside in the other room because she lives near a street.

所以，如果你能听到室外的声音，那就说明有空气进入的通道。

So if you can hear outdoor noise, there's a pathway for the air getting in.

这实际上是一个非常好的方法。

That's a really good technique, actually.

这是声学测试。

It's acoustic testing.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

It is.

尤其是如果你能制作一些比较器之类的东西。

And especially if you can make comparators and things like that.

我想你可能可以用一些iPhone工具或手机应用，它们带有分贝计功能。

I wonder you could probably use there's a couple iPhone tools out there or phone tools that have decibel meters on them.

其中有一个由NIOSH发布的工具非常准确。

And using that in that area, there's one put out by NIOSH that is very accurate.

没错。

Yep.

但现实地说，即使不够准确，你也可以把它当作一个比较工具，因为你是在两个不同但相似的位置进行比较。

But realistically, even if it's not accurate, you would use that as a comparator tool because you're comparing it in two different spot two similar spots.

就像比尔说的，如果你有一个房间或另一个房间，就拿它们和室外做比较。

Like Bill said, if you got one room or another room, make that comparison there to outside.

进行这项测试时，确保室内的噪音水平相似，并且你与疑似泄漏点的距离也相近。

Make sure you have similar noise levels indoors when you're doing this, and you're a similar distance from where you suspect the leak might be.

如果你在一个空间测得的噪音水平更高，而在室外测试时两个空间的噪音水平相似，那很可能存在空气泄漏，因为声音喜欢通过空气通道传播。

And if you have higher levels in one space, and you've got a similar noise level outdoors when you're testing between the two spaces, probably got air leaks in there somewhere because sound loves to travel through paths of air.

这很有用。

Good to know.

比尔，既然你参加了每一集

If, Bill, since you've been on every episode

几乎是每一集。

Almost.

几乎是。

Almost.

你从第一天起就一直在了。

You've been around since day one.

在你邀请过的所有嘉宾中，如果你能挥动魔杖，让整个行业采用一种标准做法，你会选择哪一种？为什么？

With all the guests that you've had on the podcast, if there was one if you could wave a magic wand and make one practice standard across the industry, what would it be and why?

花时间思考问题。

Spend time thinking about the problem.

这种思考可能包括在学习中思考、在体验中思考、在实践中思考。

And that thinking might include thinking while learning, thinking while experiencing, and thinking while practicing.

我之所以提到体验这个因素，是因为我们并非天生就具备完成这项工作所需的知识。

And I do throw that experience element in there because we're not all born with the knowledge it takes to do this.

亲身经历才能带来最大的改变。

And actual experience yourself makes the biggest difference.

我认为它会以不同的方式留下印记。

I think it imprints differently.

很好。

Nice.

谢谢。

Thanks.

随着250集节目的发展，你觉得你的角色和责任有所改变吗？

With the evolution of 250 episodes, do you feel like your role and your responsibility has changed at all?

角色？

The role?

是的。

Yes.

我希望能更多地把话语权让给埃里克。

I'd like to try to defer more to Eric.

实际上，当我无法出席而节目已经安排好的时候，他都临时代替我，完美地完成了整个工作。

And, actually, he's covered in a pinch where I couldn't be on and we had scheduled, and he's just done the whole thing with aplomb, with perfect precision.

但我的责任，没有。

But my responsibility, no.

我们都会收到人们的请求，并且都会仔细审查。

We both get requests from people, and we scrutinize them.

我们共同判断，这真的合适吗？

We share, is this really appropriate?

不是说这个人不合适，而是这个话题是否符合我们的主题？

Is not that the person is inappropriate, but is the topic fitting our theme?

我在这里补充一个趣闻。

I will add one anecdote here.

有人给我发了封邮件，问我们是否愿意报道一种能量饮料之类的东西，因为技术人员需要在工作中保持精力充沛。

Somebody sent me an email and said, would you like to cover it was like an energy drink, something like that, because technicians need to stay energized at work.

我当时想，你在开玩笑吧。

I'm like, you're pulling it.

我说，这个话题不符合我们节目的主旨。

I said, that topic does not fit the thesis for our show.

那个人回信说，哦，主旨？

That person wrote back, oh, the thesis.

所以我不再使用'主旨'这个词了。

So I don't use the thesis anymore.

这就像主题内容。

It's like the subject matter.

好的。

Okay.

你觉得这个可以交给你们中的任意一位。

What do you think this can go to either one of you.

如果十年后有人在听这段内容，你希望他们从中获得什么？

If someone is listening to this in ten years from now, what do you hope they take away?

哇。

Wow.

十年。

Ten years.

我希望我们周围的行业能够持续发展。

I would hope that the industry around us has continued to grow.

我们所使用的仪器和工具也能够持续进步。

The instrumentation and the tools that we use have continued to grow.

这些行业中的人们的实践也在持续发展，并以积极的方式向前推进。我希望十年后的人们回望这段历史时，能说一声：‘哇。’

The practices of the people in those industries have continued to grow and move forward in a positive manner, And I would hope that people in ten years can look back at this and say, wow.

我们已经走了很长的路，也许坐在这些麦克风后面的这两个家伙，也为推动这一进程贡献了小小的力量。

We've come a long way and that maybe these two guys sitting behind their microphones over here were a small part of helping to move that forward.

我附议。

I'll echo that.

只是用了一些不太一样的词。

Just a few different words.

但我们所讨论的那些边缘性想法、话题和技术，很多都已变成了日常常态。

But fringe ideas, topics, techniques that we talk about, that a lot of them become normal every day.

你能给我举个例子吗？

Can you give me an example?

你有没有以某种方式测试过你所接触的每一个供暖或制冷系统？

Do you test every system you touch in some way or another, heating or cooling system?

另一个例子是，我们现在正处于一个边缘领域：那就是在你所做的每一项工作中——无论是刚介入还是对空间进行改造时——都要评估室内空气质量，而空气质量是一个健康指标。

Another example is, we're on the fringe of this now, is a way of assessing the indoor air quality, which is a health parameter, on all the work that you do, either coming into it or what you do to a space.

埃里克，你有什么要说的吗？

Anything from you, Eric?

我希望我们能更好地提供针对建筑的更大规模测试和评估。

I would hope that maybe we get better at offering that larger testing on the building and offer an evaluation.

我希望十年后，我们能有一个很好的方法，利用某种仪器更准确地评估人们在空间中的舒适度并预测这种舒适感。

I hope that maybe in ten years' time, we can have a really good method of using some kind of an instrument to more closely assess people's comfort in a space and predict that comfort.

如果人们感到不适，我们可以评估空间以了解他们的不适原因，从而更准确地预测他们将拥有一个更舒适的环境，而无需做那么多猜测。

If people are having comfort problems, we can assess the space to their uncomfort, and we can then predict that they'll have a comfortable space a little bit closer without taking quite so many guesses.

我现在知道那会是什么样子吗？

Do I know what that looks like right now?

我现在有一些概念，但我认为还有很多其他人可能正在研究这个问题。

Now, I got some concepts, but I also think a lot of other people out there are potentially working on that right now.

在250期节目之后，你最想感谢听众的是什么？

So with 250 episodes, what is one thing you want to thank your listeners for?

我知道你刚才说我们的节目下载量已经超过20万次。

I know that you just said we had over 200,000 downloads of the show.

对吗？

Is that correct?

嗯。

Yeah.

235,000。

235,000.

哇。

Wow.

太棒了。

Incredible.

你想要感谢这235,000人什么呢？

What would you like to thank those 235,000 people for?

我想感谢他们反复收听不止一集，也感谢他们包容我和埃里克思维的跳跃。

I would like to thank them for coming back to listen to more than one episode and for accommodating where Eric's and my brains go.

因为我们的思路并不总是线性的。

Because it's not often linear.

它确实偶尔会深入一些偏题的内容。

It does tend to dive down some holes once in a while.

我想感谢每一位哪怕只听过一次节目的人。

I'd like to say thank you to everybody just for even tuning in once.

如果有一期节目能帮助某人迈出职业生涯或学习道路上的下一步，我会非常高兴他们曾停下脚步，也许如果他们喜欢，还会回来听其他内容。

If there's one show that helps somebody out there to take the next step in their career, in their path in learning, I am just so happy they stopped by, and maybe if they liked it, maybe they'll come back and pick something else up.

我们这档节目有一样我特别喜欢的特点，就是我们涉及的话题非常广泛。

One thing we do have on this show that I really like is we have a wide variety of topics we touch on.

每次的内容都不尽相同，我认为这对我们的大脑都有好处，因为正如比尔所说，我们的思维并不总是线性的。

It's not always the same thing, and I think that's good for both of our brains because, as Bill said, they don't always move linearly.

有时我们的思维会从一个兔子洞跳到另一个兔子洞，这不仅让我们自己保持兴趣，也希望能让听众同样感到有趣。

Sometimes they hop from rabbit hole to rabbit hole, and that really keeps it interesting for both of us and hopefully keeps it interesting for our listeners as well.

虽然这不是你刚才问的问题，但我认为让嘉宾分享他们的背景故事，有时甚至是完整的人生经历，本身就足以构成一整期节目。

And not quite the same question you asked, but I think asking people to share their backstory and sometimes just their whole story is a whole episode.

我由衷感谢那些前来做客、敞开心扉的嘉宾，我希望他们的话语能帮助某些人跨越某种障碍——无论是职业上的瓶颈，还是工作中遇到的困难，让我们的分享能真正助力社区中的他人渡过难关。

I really thank those guests for coming on and sharing, being open, and I really hope that those words get somebody over some kind of hurdle, whether it's a career hurdle, whether it's problems they encounter on the job, that it just helps them move through things that we've contributed to our community.

这是给你们二位的最后一个问题。

This is the final question for both of you.

所以我想请你们两位都来完成这句话。

So I'd like if you guys could both finish this sentence.

好的建筑系统始于空白。

Good building systems start with blank.

一个计划。

A plan.

一个深思熟虑的过程。

A thoughtful process.

有点是一回事。

Kind of one and the same.

太棒了。

Awesome.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

最终还是要看你能否全面地想象整个过程，但你肯定会遗漏其中的一些环节。

It's gonna come down to where you can visualize the whole process, and you're gonna miss some stuff in there.

因此，这个过程的一部分必须具备一定的灵活性，以便说：嘿，好吧，我们得改点东西，因为这是一个非常非常复杂的系统。

So part of that process has gotta be a little bit of flexibility to say, hey, okay, we gotta change something, because it's a really, really complex system.

不要忽视质量保证，或者让别人和你一起检查你的工作，或者你自己复核，尤其是针对结果参数和你想要实现的目标。

Don't neglect the quality assurance or having somebody work with you, check your work, or double checking your own work, especially for the results parameters, the things you're trying to achieve.

嗯。

Yeah.

设定目标是制定计划和进行深思熟虑过程的好方法。

Goals are a good thing to have to set up that plan and that thoughtful process.

好的。

Alright.

非常感谢你们让我采访你们。

Well, thank you so much for letting me interview you.