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你好，欢迎收听《为什么？》的又一期节目。
Hello, and welcome to another episode of But Why?
这是一档通过真诚对话探讨重大问题和复杂话题的播客。
The podcast that's all about digging into big questions and tricky topics via honest conversations.
本周，我们将探讨孤独感。实际上，在过去几天我不断思考后，我发现这是一个让我感到非常触动的话题。
This week, we're gonna be looking at loneliness, which actually, as I've been mulling it over the last couple of days, has I've found a very triggering subject to sit with.
所以这将是一次很好的对话。
So this makes for a good conversation.
我今天邀请了一位播客的朋友。
And I am joined by a friend of the podcast.
我以前从没这么说过，但我认为你确实可以算作一位。
I've never said that before, but I think you can be it.
我的一位朋友，也是我本人非常敬佩并从中汲取智慧的人。
And friend of mine and someone who I personally take a lot of wisdom from.
她就是安娜·梅。
It's Anna Mae.
安娜·玛莎，我每次都会问你这个问题。
Anna Martha, I ask you this every time.
安娜·玛莎挺好。
Anna Martha is good.
我的意思是，除了因为这是个印度姓氏，我念得不对，我丈夫也念不对。
I mean no one, unless, because it's an Indian surname, I don't say it right, my husband doesn't say it right.
否则的话，你会听到别人怎么念，比如你念‘玛莎’。
Otherwise you Crack of how you would say You take, I say Martha.
但还有什么
But what else is
我丈夫说‘玛莎’，但我认为应该是‘玛图尔’。
My husband says Martha, but I think it's more matur.
好吧。
Okay.
如果你好吧。
If you Okay.
用印度口音。
In an Indian accent.
嗯，
Well,
让我感觉好了一点。
makes me feel a bit better.
这让我对自己在这件事上磕磕绊绊的感觉好了一些，因为我觉得
Which makes me feel a bit better about stumbling about it because I think
我一直以来都想
I've always wanted
说“maither”，但那样也不对。
to say maither, but that also isn't right.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，是的。
I mean, yeah.
绝对不是。
Definitely not.
是的，印度血统。
It's, yeah, Indian heritage.
不管怎样，你说了，那我们就这么定了。
Anyway, you've said it, so we'll go with that.
她是一位三个孩子的母亲，也是一位心理治疗师和畅销书作家。
She is a mom of three, a psychotherapist and a bestselling author.
我的意思是，这位女士写书的速度几乎比你生孩子还快。
I mean, this woman knocks out books almost faster than you knocked out children actually.
她热衷于在治疗室之外谈论心理治疗，并分享自己个人和专业的经历，以支持母亲们度过育儿阶段。
She's passionate about talking about therapy outside of the therapy room and sharing her own personal and professional experiences to support moms through motherhood.
她的播客《治疗编辑》下载量已超过二十五万次。
Her own podcast of therapy edit has over a quarter of a million downloads.
我觉得这个数据有点过时了。
I feel like that stat is a bit out of date.
现在是一百万了。
It's a million now.
超过一百万了。
Over a million.
是的。
Yeah.
人们去更新一下你的简介吧。
People to update your bio.
我会的。
I do.
我们需要更改那个PDF。
We need to change that that PDF.
我说我是超级粉丝，我知道这一点。
I tell I'm a super fan that I know that.
她的新书《妈妈们的平静小书》现已出版。
And her new book, the Little Book of Calm for Mums is out now.
所以，安娜，有三个重要问题。
So three important questions, Anna.
你真的怎么样？
How are you really?
你的星座和最爱的薯片是什么？
What star sign and favorite crisps?
你知道吗，今天早上我在想，我对这些问题真的很兴奋，因为我喜欢听别人的回答。
You know, I was thinking this morning, I was really excited about these questions because I love hearing people's answers.
那我到底怎么样？
So how am I really?
我感觉情绪特别高涨。
I feel really heightened.
我觉得我荷尔蒙失调了。
I think I'm hormonal.
今天早上我查了那个应用，它总是会让我情绪更加波动。
I checked my app this morning and that always just, I think just kind of heightens emotions.
就像经前那样，是吧？我觉得我现在的感受更强烈了，有点更敏感。
As in your premenstrual Yeah, or so I think I'm feeling things more, a bit more sensitive.
这可能会为我们的对话增添一层更多的真诚和情感。
So that will bring probably an extra layer of honesty and emotion to our chat.
我累了，因为昨晚有朋友来家里。
I'm tired because we had friends around last night.
我正努力做那件事。
I'm trying so hard to do that thing.
你知道吗，当你一直对别人说：‘哦，我们改天聚一聚。’
You know when you keep saying to people, Oh yeah, we'll get together.
所以，我现在开始变得非常有意识。
So, I'm starting to be really intentional.
于是我掏出手机，心想：好了，咱们行动吧。
So, I whip out my phone and I'm like, Right, let's win.
因为昨晚来我们家的那些朋友，我们老实说已经这样说了大概五年了。
Because the people we had around last night, we've been honestly saying that for about five years.
所以前几天我路过他们的时候，我们拿出手机，在日历里记了一笔，然后就办成了。
So, walked past them the other day and we got our phones out and we put something in the diary and And got it done.
办成了，这其实会涉及到我们正在聊的这个话题。
And got it done, which kind of, this will come up in the topic that we're chatting about.
所以，我真的很喜欢昨晚有他们作伴。
So, I'm really, I loved having that company last night.
下一个问题是？
What was the next question?
薯片？
The crisps?
哦，对。
Oh yeah.
哦，对，我的薯片。
Oh yeah, my crisps.
所以情况变了，因为我一开始会狂吃一种薯片，然后很快就吃腻了。
So, it changes because I go all out on one crisp and then have to, then I get sick of them.
所以很长一段时间，我只吃枫糖浆配培根味的薯片。
So for ages, it was the maple syrup and bacon.
老实说，我以前只吃这种薯片，现在却怎么看都厌了。
Honestly, would eat no other crisp and now I can't look at them.
所以现在我迷上了色情鸡尾酒。
So now it's porn cocktail.
但你
But you
你知道吗，我觉得我说得没错，希望这不只是我们之间的私人对话。
know, I think I'm right in saying, and I hope this is not just a personal conversation.
你觉得自己可能患有多动症，而对食物的极度专注确实是多动症的常见特征之一。
You're thinking that you might have ADHD and you know that hyper fixation on food is quite a I common trait of definitely
我在自己身上也看到了这种现象。
see that in myself.
当我回想起过去，你知道那些干果能量棒吗？
And when I look back, oh, did you know those bars, those bars with the dried fruit?
天啊，
Gosh,
它们叫什么名字？
what are they called?
不，就是那种能量棒。
No, bars.
对，裸棒。
Yeah, naked bars.
有一阵子我不断买它们，好像它们马上就要停产了一样。
My At one point I kept buying them as if they were gonna stop selling them.
现在我也看不下去了。
Can't look at those now either.
是啊，真奇怪。
Yeah, it's so weird.
你通常也很难预见到这种过度专注什么时候会结束。
You also don't really see when the end of that hyper fixation is coming.
因为你一开始会想，哦，我太喜欢了，我太喜欢了，我太喜欢了。
Because you're like, Oh, I love it, I love it, I love it.
哦不，我再也不吃这个了。
Oh no, I'm not eating that ever again.
对。
Yeah.
我曾在工作中把胡萝卜香菜汤——我都差点说不出来这个名字——放进微波炉加热过一次。
I put carrot and coriander soup, I can barely say it, in the microwave once at work.
在加热的这三分钟里，我就突然不想要了。
And in this three minutes it took to heat up, I couldn't, I was off it.
我当时就想，我根本没法再碰了，从那以后，胡萝卜香菜汤就不再是我的汤了。
I was like, I cannot even, I never, since then, carrot and coriander soup is not my soup.
而且我的星座是处女座。
And my star sign is Virgo.
对，我们之前讨论过这个，哪
Yeah, we discussed this, which
我觉得
I think
这说得通。
Which makes makes sense.
我在想食物的事，因为你知道，年轻人总说为别人做食物，这一点我完全能理解。
I'm thinking with the food, because you know, the young people talk about getting the for other humans, which I definitely relate to.
比如，我真的喜欢你。
Like, Oh, I really like you.
哦不，情况突然变了。
Oh no, something's just changed.
你现在却在给我拿鸡蛋。
And you're now making, giving me the egg.
但食物其实什么作用都没有。
But food really doesn't do anything.
这完全是你自己心里的想法。
That's completely in your own mind.
不是吗？
Isn't it?
那天咖喱香菜的味道并没有什么不同。
Curry coriander didn't taste any different that day.
但这种突然的厌恶感，就像怀孕时连提都不能提、想都不能想那种食物一样。
But it was this sudden aversion, almost like in pregnancy where you can't even talk or think about that food.
我在想，这是否是因为它有某种关联，因为说来有趣，对你来说，这确实和裸体吧与怀孕联系在一起。
And I wonder whether it's because it's kind of linked, because actually funnily you say that for me, it's definitely linked to kind of the naked bars have linked to kind of pregnancy.
是的。
Yeah.
或者你人生的不同阶段。
Or different chapters of your life.
就像那个阶段我吃的东西。
Like that is what I ate during that phase.
那已经不是我了。
And that's not me anymore.
因此，我不能再执着于做同样的事情。
Therefore, I can no longer obsessively do the same thing.
但当你发现一个新的痴迷时，感觉真好，你会想，
But it's nice when you discover a new obsession and you're like,
这太棒了。
this is great.
是的。
Yeah.
因为它带来了这么多，我很好奇《色情鸡尾酒克里斯》什么时候会发布。
Because it brings so much I wonder when the Porn Cocktail Chris is gonna be out.
因为我的孩子们非常喜欢它们。
Cause my kids really like them.
所以，是的。
So, yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我得注意，不能太过分，不然我拒绝的时候他们会难过。
I'll have to, you know, I can't overdo it, otherwise they'll be sad when I refuse
去买给他们。
to buy them.
当你再也得不到它们的时候。
When you can no longer have them.
我觉得和孩子口味不一样挺好的，这样就能很清楚地分清哪些是你的，哪些不是。
I think it's quite good to have split tastes from your kids and things like that, cause then it's very clear what are yours and what aren't.
我不喜欢那些，诸如此类的东西。
Skips, not into those, so on.
让他们留着那些薯片吧。
They can keep the skips.
我喜欢，但你得吃上五袋才能有点满足感。
I like them, but you you'd have to eat like five bags before you had any kind of sense
满足感。
of satisfaction.
味道在那里。
Flavor there.
所以，我们要谈谈孤独。
So, we're going to be talking about loneliness.
正如我在介绍中所说，我越思考这个问题，我知道你也一直在思考你所从事的工作，这让我感到深深的悲伤。
And as I said in my intro, the more I've mulled this, and I know you've been mulling it in terms of the work that you're doing, it leaves me with a really deep sense of sadness as I think about it.
我一直在试图理清为什么会这样。
And I was trying to unpick why that is.
有几方面的原因。
It's a couple of things.
我认为孤独中带有一些羞耻感。
I think there's a bit of shame around loneliness.
而与此相反的，则是一种内疚感，特别是想到我的奶奶，我希望——他已经不在了——但我希望我生命中的老年人，没有人会感到孤独，因为我不希望这样。
And then the flip of that is a bit of guilt that's particularly, it's quite a cliche, I think of my granny and I hope that, he's no longer with us, but I hope that, you know, the older people in my life don't, anyone in my life doesn't feel lonely because I wouldn't like that.
当你想到孤独时，你首先想到的是什么？或者它让你有什么感受？
When you think of loneliness, what springs to mind or how does it make you feel?
是的，我也觉得这种悲伤。
Yeah, I think that same thing, that sadness.
我突然想起了我的心理治疗培训，我们做过一些存在主义训练，就是他们所说的‘人类基本需求’——每个人都会面对的事实，比如我们会死，一切终将结束。其中有一条让我觉得非常非常压抑。
I, and actually my brain suddenly hopped back to my psychotherapy training and we did some existential training, which is kind of like, when they talk about the human givens, the facts of life that are true for everyone, we will die, everything comes to an end And one of them, I found it very, very depressing.
所以我认为，这些真相往往是我们试图麻木或回避的，因为它们令人悲伤，难以直面。
So I think these truths often the ones that we try and numb or try and ignore because they're sad, they're hard to think about.
其中一条就是：我们是孤独的。
And one of them was that we're alone.
最终，你只是一个人，无论你拥有怎样的关系，无论你与他人建立多么深厚的情感连接，你在这个世界上仍然是一个独立的个体。
Ultimately, you are one person and no matter what relationships you have and what depths of connection you have, you are one person in this world.
你在这个世界上是一个独立的个体。
You are an individual person in this world.
我只是觉得，想到这一点就非常痛苦。
And I just found that so painful to think about.
我认为，当我们感到孤独时，其实就是在直面这种真相。
And I think when we feel lonely, we're really getting in touch with that.
作为人类的核心特质之一，关系对我们至关重要，我们必须投入大量时间、精力和心血去经营它们。
One of those core things of being human is that relationships are so important to us and we have to put a lot of, often a lot of time and energy and investment into them.
但归根结底，没有人能满足我们的一切需求。
But ultimately the core of it is that no one can be everything to us.
没有人能，你知道的，满足所有渴望，满足那种想要被连接的需要。
No one can, you know, I don't know, fulfill everything, you know, fulfill that desire and that need to feel connected.
在童年时期，你确实会经历一个开始意识到这一点的时刻。
And there's definitely a kind of moment in your childhood when you begin to become aware of that.
我的孩子们现在正处于这样的阶段，他们说：‘妈妈，你永远不要死。’
My kids are definitely at the phase now where they're saying, I don't want you to ever die, mommy.
因为你突然明白，这不可能实现。
And because you have that sudden understanding that that can't be the case.
我不知道你是否愿意谈论这个，但你很早就失去了妹妹。
And I don't know how comfortable you are talking about it, but you had the loss of your sister really early.
我本能地觉得，我的兄弟姐妹会永远陪伴在我身边。
And I think there's definitely a sibling idea that I feel innately that my siblings will be by my side forever.
那不是事实。
That isn't the truth.
不，我记得很清楚，当时我想，我妹妹确诊癌症时，我大概是六七岁，她当时两岁、三岁、四岁还是五岁？
No, and I remember, I remember so starkly thinking, so my sister got diagnosed with cancer when I must've been about, trying to think, she was two, three, four, five.
我当时大概是六七岁。
I must've been about six, so six, seven.
我现在的年纪和我大孩子一样大。
So I was the age my oldest is now.
我记得我当时想，如果她死了，我就活不下去了。
And I remember thinking if she were ever to die, I wouldn't be able to live.
那是对被抛弃的恐惧。
It was that fear of being left.
那是对一种认知转变的恐惧——没有人能永远陪伴在你身边。
It was that fear of, I guess that shift in that awareness that nobody can be there forever.
我曾经恳求父母答应我，迫切地希望他们保证不会死。
And I used to want my parents to promise me this desperate desire for them to promise me that nothing, that they wouldn't die.
嗯。
Yeah.
而且我想，归根结底，我不希望独自离开你。
And I think again, it comes down to that, I don't want to be alone from you.
这很难，对吧？
It's difficult, isn't it?
因为随着我年纪越来越大，我越来越享受独处，实际上比以往任何时候都更渴望独处。
Because the older I get now, I'm more comfortable in my own company and I'm actually more crave my own company than I ever have.
我刚看了《我所知道的一切关于爱》。
I've just watched Everything I Know About Love.
你看过吗？
Have you watched it?
多莉，我来吧。
Dolly, I'll do it.
还没看，但已经在我的清单上了，真的特别棒。
No, haven't, but it's on my It's really brilliant.
有一个真实的情节，主角的朋友们都外出过夜，她独自一人留在家里。
And there's a real scene where the protagonist, all her friends are out for the evening and she's left in the house on her own.
我记得那个场景。
And I remember it.
在二十多岁时，你真的不知道独自一人在房子里该做什么。
And in your twenties, you literally do not know what to do in a building on your own.
她只是在房子里漫无目的地游荡，连坐在沙发上都不行。
She just like knocks around the house trying to, she can't like sit on the sofa.
她就是不能那样做。
She can't do that.
是啊，她无法独自一人，而我现在完全可以，但这并不意味着你和孤独之间没有巨大区别，对吧？
Yeah, she can't be on her own, which I definitely can now, but that doesn't mean that you, there's such a difference between being alone and loneliness, isn't there?
是的，还有独处和孤立的区别。
Yeah, and solitude and isolation as well.
前几天我思考这个问题时，正在写一些相关内容，发现这些概念之间确实存在差异——独处和孤独是完全不同的。
So as I was thinking about this the other day and I was writing something about it, there's differences between all of these things and there's difference between being alone and being lonely.
我们并不总是在独处时感到孤独。
We don't always feel lonely when we're alone.
独处和孤立是有区别的。
And there's a difference between solitude and isolation.
对我来说，独处有时正是我所追求的。
I think for me, solitude is sometimes the thing that I seek.
我知道这对我有益，而且是我渴望的。
I know it's gonna be good for me and it's something I crave.
孤立则更多是一种被迫的分离，或者你因为某种境况而感到孤立，觉得自己与周围的人脱节。
Isolation is more a separation that's kind of enforced or, you know, you feel isolated because of a circumstance or you feel disconnected from the people around you.
所以我觉得仔细思考这些词的含义真的很有趣，但它们都是一种脱节。
So I think it's really interesting to kind of ponder what those mean, but they're all a disconnection.
这是一种出于选择的与他人，有时甚至是与自己的脱节。
You know, it's choice or a disconnection from people and sometimes from yourself.
我觉得，独处时的孤独感，往往就是与自己的脱节。
Like I think sometimes the loneliness when we're alone is that disconnection from ourselves.
是的。
Yes.
而且实际上，你并不想独处，因为你不想去面对那种不适感。
And actually you don't want to be alone because you don't want to try and lean into that discomfort.
因为确实，当你独自一人时，你不得不面对一些现实。
Because actually, yeah, when you are left alone, you have to face some realities.
你的思绪会自由飘荡，可能会带来一些令人不安的真相。
Your mind is left to wonder and it might bring up some uncomfortable truths.
但关于这种疏离感，这句话真的没错，因为我一直在回想自己感到孤独的时刻。
But it's so true about the disconnection because I was trying to think of moments when I felt lonely.
我清楚地记得，我是我朋友中第一个生孩子的人，也是我兄弟姐妹中第一个。
And I remember very specifically, I was the first of my friends to have a baby and the first of my siblings.
所以，确实，我是我认识的人中第一个当父母的。
So yeah, first of anyone I really knew to have a baby.
一年后我和朋友们出去时，我只想着：你们并不知道我正在经历什么。
And I went out a year afterwards with my friends And I just remember thinking, you don't know what I'm going through.
我不再身处你们的世界了，我们都在这里，在一家不错的餐厅里愉快地相处，但我感到非常孤独，因为我们不再拥有彼此共享的理解。
And I no longer am in the world that you're in and we're all here and we're having a nice time at a nice restaurant, but I feel really lonely because we no longer have a shared kind of understanding of one another.
是的，就是这种脱节，对吧？
Yeah, it's that disconnection, isn't it?
我认为这就是那种不被看见的感觉，你知道吗？在我为人父母的一些最孤独的时刻，比如我站在厨房里，情况真的非常艰难，我努力控制着各种情绪，拼命忍住不喊出来。
And I think it's that feeling of being unseen and, you know, some of my loneliest moments in parenting or when I'm standing in the kitchen and it is flipping hard and I'm trying to contain all of the different emotions and I'm trying so hard not to shout.
在那一刻，我觉得没有人能理解这种感受。
And I feel like in that moment, I feel like no one understands what this feels like.
这里没有人能理解我。
There's no one here to recognize me.
这里没有人会说，安娜，这看起来真的很难，或者我知道这种感觉是什么样的。
There's no one here to say, Anna, that looks really hard or I know what that feels like.
即使我们并不孤单，我们依然能感受到深深的孤独。
And we can feel, again, we can feel really lonely even though we're not alone in our feelings.
有时候我必须提醒自己：我的一个孩子是神经多样性者。
And sometimes I have to literally remind myself of that is, you know, I've, one of my kids is neurodivergent.
所以我们面临很多关于情绪爆发的挑战，因此我不得不压抑这些情绪以及我对它们的反应。
So we have a lot of challenges around kind of explosive emotions and therefore I'm having to contain those emotions and my own response to them.
因为有时候我只想发一场自己的脾气，只想大喊大叫。
Because sometimes I just want to have my own tantrum and I just want to scream.
我认为，育儿中最艰难的事情之一，就是当你内心所有本能都想逃离这场风暴时。
That is, I think that's one of the hardest things in parenting is when everything in you wants to run away from the storm.
但作为妈妈，我们被召唤着走向它，走向风暴中心并留在那里。
But as moms, we're called to walk towards it, to walk towards and to stay in the eye of the storm.
有时我发现，当我独自在家，虽然身边有孩子，但内心却渴望有人来照顾我，这种感觉格外孤独。
And I find sometimes that is one of the loneliest feelings when I'm at home and I'm not on my own because I'm with the kids, but I want someone to mother me.
我渴望有人来养育我、肯定我、鼓励我、支持我。
I want someone to parent and affirm and encourage and support me.
但没有人能看见我，没有人看到这一切有多艰难。
And there isn't anyone and there's no one to see me in that moment and see how hard it is.
这就是为什么我认为，育儿的孤独感，超越了我们已有的支持网络，超越了我们身边的人数或朋友的数量。
And that's why I think parenting can be, can feel really lonely, beyond the support networks that we have, beyond the number of people that we have around us or the number of friends that we have.
有时候你会感到与他人脱节
There are those moments where you feel disconnected
与他人疏离。
from others.
对我来说，我相信你也感同身受，但在育儿的前六个月，那种孤独感简直难以言表。
I mean, for me, and I'm sure you relate, but in the first six months of motherhood, it was unbelievably lonely.
这是一种强烈的对比，不是吗？从你过去的生活突然跌入空荡荡、无所事事的日子。
And it's that contrast, isn't it, from having the life that you had and then these blank days with nothing.
问题还在于，那时你的大脑已经精疲力尽，当你终于见到别人时，第一次经历那种半截子对话，这种对话现在你越来越熟悉，也逐渐接受了。
And the problem is also because your brain is pretty fried at that point, you then do meet people and it's your first ever experience of those half conversations, which you become more, they've become more normal and you've accepted them now.
但你日程表上唯一安排的就是和别的妈妈们喝杯咖啡，可当你去了之后，却没人能真正交谈，也看不到彼此。
But you know, the one thing you've got in your diary is to go for coffee with these other moms and you go there and no one is able to have a conversation or see one another.
然后你离开时，感觉更加孤独了。
And then you leave feeling even more lonely.
这真的很难。
It's really tough.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这回到了我一开始说的，要更有意识地去见人，因为前几天我去接送孩子，一切正常，见了很多很多人，对很多人微笑，但之后坐在车里，我感到一种类似悲伤的情绪，我喜欢给情绪命名，看看哪种最贴切。
And I think that's, it goes back to what I was saying at the beginning about trying to be more intentional about seeing people because the other day I did a school run and it was fine and I saw loads of people and I smiled at loads of people and I sat in the car afterwards and I was feeling something like a sadness and what I like to do is name feelings to see which one fits.
我喜欢在商店里试衣服时，自问：我现在是生气、无聊，还是孤独？
And I like trying on clothes in a shop and I'll just say, am I feeling angry, bored, lonely?
就像我有时对孩子们做的那样，试图弄清楚他们内心在经历什么。
In a way that I do to my kids sometimes when I'm trying to get to the bottom of what is going on in them.
我刚说‘孤独’，那一刻就像被击中了胸口，一种深深的共鸣涌上来：天啊，原来这就是我的感受，我想哭，我想，我已经见过这么多人了。
And I just said lonely and it was like a punch in the stomach and it was like this real kind of deep resonance of, wow, that's how And I'm I felt like crying and I thought, okay, I've seen so many people.
跟朋友打招呼，那些真正关心我、愿意倾听我、我可以倾诉的人。
Said hi to friends, people that genuinely care about me and who would listen to me and who I could have spoken to.
但上一次我真正进行一次深入的交谈，或者在公园里闲聊，而不是被孩子拽走——因为有人想荡秋千，而弗洛伦斯特别喜欢被推着玩——是什么时候呢？
But when was the last time I actually had more than a passing conversation or chatting in the park where you're then dragged away because someone wants to go on the swing and Florence likes being pushed a lot.
在那一刻，我决定我需要更多的连接。
And I think in that moment I decided that I needed more connection.
我认为我们现在比以往任何时候都拥有更多的人际联系，但这种联系却非常肤浅；作为人类，我们天生需要连接与脆弱，而我们却渐渐失去了这种习惯。
I think we have so many connections with people more than ever, but it's like we're spread really thinly and as humans we're wired for connection and vulnerability And I think we've gotten out to the habit.
再说说我们家的餐桌，这张厨房里的桌子是我们2014年刚买房时买的，当时我们买了一张大木桌，梦想是邀请人们来家里，围坐在一起，营造一种社群氛围。
Again, I looked at the dinner table, this table in our kitchen is really, we bought it when we first bought our house in 2014 and we bought this big wooden table and our dream and our desire was to host people, have people around it and kind of create community.
有一天周六晚上，我看着这张桌子，感到非常难过——以前我们会在周六晚上邀请朋友来家里，轻松地一起玩桌游。
And I looked at this table one Saturday evening, I felt really sad because we had people over for a long On a Saturday night, we would've said to friends, just come around, let's play a board game, super relaxed.
我感到特别难过。
And I felt really sad.
我对丈夫说：‘我们已经不再习惯与人相处了。’
And I said to my husband, I said, we've gotten out of the habit of being with people.
于是，我们开始在日历上安排一些约会，效果不错。
So, we started putting some dates in the diary and it's good.
但这种状态像是封锁期留下的后遗症——当你谈到连接时，我还记得那段奇特的经历：当时允许人们外出散步，虽然我们见不到多少人，但每次和最好的朋友一起散步几小时，都能进行非常充实、温暖的交谈。
But it's like this hangover from lockdown where actually, when you're talking about a connection, I do remember that time when the weird journey of it, but when you were allowed to meet people for a walk and actually though we weren't seeing people very much, I'd then meet my best mates and would walk for a couple of hours and I'd have like such a brilliant, brilliant, like wholesome chat.
而现在，我们却陷入了一种奇怪的境地：我们明明可以见面了。
And now we're at this weird thing where we can see one another.
我们已经不再习惯邀请别人来家里了，可能因为我们觉得不行，但同时也失去了那些珍贵的散步时光。
We're out of the habit of inviting people over because probably we think that, you know, we can't, but we're also not getting those moments like those precious walks.
是啊，确实如此。
Yeah, it's so true.
有趣的是，我觉得大家普遍感到有些疲惫，也许这就是原因。
And it's funny because I think there is a very collective sense of being a bit exhausted and maybe this is it.
这就是一个循环：你感到疲惫，就觉得没有精力去见任何人。
And this is the cycle isn't you feel exhausted and you think, I haven't got the capacity to see anyone.
然后你一再退缩，一再退缩。
And you pull back and pull back and pull back.
突然间，你已经很久没见任何人了。
And suddenly you haven't seen people for a long time.
然后再见面就很难了，因为有很多事情要聊，于是很容易就选择避开。
And then seeing them is hard because you've got a lot to catch up on and it's easy to, yeah, to skip it.
还有社交焦虑的问题。
And social anxiety as well.
我觉得这么多人正在经历他们以前从未经历过的这种状态。
I think so many people are experiencing that, haven't experienced it before.
我们的舒适区变得如此之小，以至于哪怕只是迈出一步，都感觉相当艰难。
It's just that our comfort zones got so incredibly small that even some of those steps outside of them feel quite big.
前几天我听了一场演讲，有人讲到一只笼中鸟的故事，那是一只非常美丽的鸟，人们打算放它自由，还举办了一场盛大的仪式，打开笼门后，鸟却依然留在笼子里。
And I was listening to a talk the other day and someone was talking about how they were talking about the story of this bird in a cage and it was this amazing bird and they were going to free it and they had this big ceremony and they opened the door of this cage and the bird stayed in the cage.
他说得非常深刻，他讲道：不是鸟被困在笼子里，而是笼子已经存在于鸟的内心。
And he said so profound, he was like, it wasn't that the bird was in the cage, it was that the cage was in the bird.
哇。
Wow.
我知道，我知道。
I know, I know.
我认为，将这与孤独联系起来，是我们许多人已经内化了这种疏离感，而其实我们本可以拥有更多。
And I think, you know, relating this to loneliness is that we, it's like, I think many of us have kind of like embodied this disconnection and we don't have, there is more for us.
其实还有更多，你知道吗？我们身边有朋友和亲人，其实我们可以比以往更依赖他们一些。
There is more, you know, there are people that we have friendships with and relationships with that actually we can lean on those a little bit more than perhaps we've been in the habit of doing so.
我们可以比以往更坦诚一些，也许我们已经失去了这样做的信心。
We can be a bit more vulnerable than perhaps we, you know, maybe we've lost our confidence in doing so.
我认为这些事物其实都是为我们准备的。
And I think some of these things are there for us.
只是我们内心已经筑起了牢笼。
It's just that we, it's like the cage is inside of us.
是的，我想一开始我说过，当我想到孤独时，会有一种内疚感。
Yeah, and I think actually at the beginning I said, oh, when I think of loneliness, I get this sense of guilt.
这是需要记住的重要一点。
And that is an important thing to remember.
如果我感到心碎，因为任何我内心深处认为不会感到孤独的人竟然也会孤独，我希望同样也有人为我这样想，但我觉得我们需要记住，我们可以去拥抱这种感受。
If I feel heartbroken that anyone who I, you know, in my core would ever feel lonely, hope that there's the equivalent there for me, but I think we need to remember that we can lean into that.
但我还注意到自己的一种情况：当我处于你所说的厨房里一切崩塌的境地时，我有时会陷入怨恨，感到愤怒，觉得别人看不到我，心里想着为什么没人来帮我。
But something I also observed in myself that when I'm doing the equivalent of what you talked about in the kitchen of when it's all crashing around you, I can sometimes ladder towards resentment and to feeling angry that people aren't seeing me and the narrative of why aren't I being helped.
这会变成一件糟糕的事，因为你会再次筑起屏障，让自己更难与人建立联系。
And that becomes a terrible thing because again, you put the barriers up and you make yourself even more difficult to connect with, I guess.
我觉得两者都有，不是吗？
I think it's the both, isn't it?
有一天早上，我给丈夫打了电话，其实当时我找的是所有人，情况太艰难了，他早上七点就要走，刚看过孩子，那时早上已经很难受了，我站在门廊上，看着他离开时哭了。
There was one morning and I called up my husband and actually everyone, it was just, it was so hard and he was leaving at 7AM and he'd just seen the kids, it was hard already at that point in the morning and I stood on the doorstep and I cried as he left.
我看着他走远，哭了起来，心想：你丢下我了。
I saw him go down the road and I cried and I thought, you're leaving me.
后来我打电话给他，情况糟透了。
And I called him later on the phone and it was just awful.
我对孩子们发了脾气，还在电话里对他大喊，说我恨他。
And I'd snapped at the kids and I was just shouting down the phone at him that I hated him.
后来他跟我说：那真的伤透了我。
And later on he was like, That was so hurtful.
我说：是的，但在那一刻，我觉得我们有时需要为自己区分出来：我接受他必须离开的事实，我尊重这一点，我也接受，但同时我也会怨恨，这非常艰难，我感到无比孤独。
And I said, Yes, but in that moment, I think there needs to be, sometimes we need to be able to separate out for ourselves the acceptance of the situation that I accept that he has to go I to respect that and I accept but also sometimes I resent that and that is incredibly hard and I feel very alone.
我觉得这需要提醒自己，有时也需要和伴侣或其他生活中重要的人进行这样的对话，去面对那种二元性：情况是合理的，很重要，你尊重它、接受它。
And I think it's reminding yourself and sometimes having that conversation maybe with that significant other or whoever else it is in your life in which you sometimes experience that dichotomy where the circumstances are right and they're important and you respect them and you accept them.
但在那一刻，它会产生影响。
But in that moment, it has an impact.
我认为感受到这种怨恨并承认它是可以的，同时也要明白，在这种情绪之外，还存在着一种接受——事情就是如此。
And I think it's okay to feel that resentment and to acknowledge that, whilst also know that beside that is that acceptance that that is how it is.
事实上，你并不想改变这一点。
And actually you wouldn't wanna change that.
你不会希望这件事被改变。
You wouldn't wanna ask for that to be changed.
我认为，内疚往往就源于此：当一种感受与另一种感受发生冲突时，你似乎无法在感到痛苦的同时，又接受事情本来的样子。
And I think this is often where the guilt comes in is when the one thing feels at war with the other as if you can't find something hard whilst also accepting that it is how it is.
是的，有时这确实很孤独，但这也必须是可以接受的。
And yes, sometimes it is lonely and that has to be okay.
而且这些情绪的强度确实很大，是啊，这很难，不是吗？
And actually the size of those feelings and yeah, it's hard, isn't it?
这一切在你脑海中发生，真的很难，也很孤独。
It's really hard and it's lonely to all of that going on in your head.
我完全理解，尤其是经前时期，我并不为此道歉，但当所有琐事累积起来，你所承担的一切突然变得难以承受时，就是这种感觉。
I so know what And you actually it's usually particularly when a premenstrual, which I don't apologize for, but it's when suddenly the sum of the parts and the size of the things that you're holding together feels, yeah, undoable.
我知道我能做到，我会去做，我们选择这么做，这都是正确的决定。
And yeah, I know that I can do it and I will do it and we chose to do it and it was all the right decisions.
但这并不意味着，在那一刻，在门口，你不会想大哭一场。
It doesn't mean in that moment on that doorstep, you don't want to have a massive weep about it.
对，没错。
And And yeah.
我认为，这些关系的核心就在于，允许我展现最艰难的自己，或者我不知道该用什么词表达，希望你们不要因此而个人化。
And I think that is the crux of what these relationships have to be to allow me to be that most difficult version of myself or what I don't know what the right language is and hopefully not take it personally.
是的，我认为关键在于思考这种体验的基础是什么。
Yeah, and I think it is just, it's thinking what is the foundation of that experience?
这种体验的基础是：这就是现状，你不会改变它，你接受并尊重它。
The foundation of that experience is that this is the circumstance, you wouldn't change it, you accept it and you respect it.
但有时，还有一些其他情绪叠加在上面，而且它们会变化。
But then there are other feelings that sit on top of that sometimes and they change.
有时会有绝对的喜悦和荣幸感，那时这就是重点，是主要的情绪。
Sometimes there is absolute joy and privilege and that is the focus and that is the main feeling.
有时则是孤独，也许还有怨恨，我认为关键在于认识到：基础情绪是好的，是接纳和尊重，但叠加在它们之上的东西必须能够
And sometimes there is loneliness and maybe resentment or, and I think it's that recognition and that being able to verbalize that the foundation feelings, they are good and they are acceptance and they are respect, but what is on top of them needs to be able
去
to
变化，你也需要能够表达出来。
change and you need to be able to verbalize it.
因为我认为，孤独感中的内疚也源于此：如果我爱这些人，感激他们，也意识到拥有他们在我生命中的幸运，那我就不该感到孤独，或者我不该这样。
Cause I think that's also where that guilt comes in around loneliness is that, if I love these people and I'm grateful for them and I recognize the privilege of having them in my life, then I shouldn't feel lonely or I shouldn't.
然后，我们会因为仅仅是情绪、对这种境遇的人类自然反应而责备自己，而这种情绪会变化，它确实会变。
And then, you know, we start shaming ourselves for what is just, it's a feeling and it's a human response to that circumstance and it will change and it will.
但我觉得，当我们停止因情绪而责备自己时，就能以尊重它们的方式去应对。
But I think when we stop shaming ourselves for emotions, it enables us then to respond to them in a way that is respectful of them.
所以我察觉到自己的孤独，或察觉到那种怨恨感，然后我想：好吧，我不会为此责备自己，因为那样我会被困住。
So I noticed my loneliness or I noticed that feeling of resentment and I think, okay, I'm not gonna shame myself for it because then I'll be stuck in it.
我需要什么？
What do I need?
实际上，我需要请身边的人帮助我邀请朋友一起散步，获得那种真正的连接，因为那是对抗孤独的良药。
Actually, I need to ask people around me to facilitate me going out for a walk with a friend and having that time of real connection because that's the antidote to loneliness.
是连接和脆弱。
It's connection and vulnerability.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我觉得，你可是庆祝这种时刻的女王。
And I think, I mean, you're the queen of celebrating that.
当我的内心陷入那种危机时刻时，我很容易走向极端。
When I'm in those kind of more crisis y moments in my mind, I'm very prone to going to extremes.
我会想：我一个朋友都没有。
It's like, Oh, I've got no friends.
没人关心我。
Nobody cares about me.
我从不出门。
I never go out.
事实上，真相是我有朋友，我不需要一整周。
And actually, the truth is I have got friends and I don't need a week.
我的意思是，一周的辅助生殖治疗当然很好，但我真正需要的可能只是和朋友喝杯咖啡、散个步。
I mean, a week and IVF would be lovely, but what I actually need is probably like a couple of hours with a coffee and a walk.
这要现实得多，而且是非常经典的做法。
It's so much more attainable and it's a real classic.
别把孩子和洗澡水一起倒掉。
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
你不需要因为某一天感觉糟糕就彻底改变你的生活。
You don't need to change your whole life just because you're feeling a bit rubbish one day.
是的，我认为在那一刻，你需要认清基础，实际情况的真相是什么？
Yeah, and I think for you, in that moment it's noting the foundation, what is the truth of the situation?
真相是你被人了解，被人爱着，你身边有在乎你的人。
The truth is that you are known and you are loved and you have people that care about you.
所以这就是基础。
So that's the foundation.
而基于此的感受是，你感到孤独、脱节，渴望陪伴，只想感受到被接纳你的群体所包围。
And then the feeling upon that is that you feel alone, you feel disconnected and you're craving company and you just want to feel, you wanna be in the company of people that accept you.
这两种感受可以同时存在。
And the two can both exist.
所以当你不因这种感受而责备自己时，你就更有可能去寻求那杯咖啡，去寻求那种
So when you don't shame yourself for feeling that, then you're more likely then to kind of to seek that coffee and seek that
对话。
conversation.
我确实一直在思考，也已经谈到了一些事情。
There's definitely something that I've been thinking already been talking as well.
我创立《所有清单之母》的根本原因在于，在我最艰难的时刻——无论是财务困境、关系问题、职业挑战还是心理健康问题——总有一种奇怪且独自承受的感觉。
The fundamentals of why I started Mother of All Lists was because in my most challenging moments, whether that's financial challenges, relationship challenges, career challenges, mental health challenges, there's always this layer of feeling weird and feeling alone with it.
而实际上，这只会让你更深地陷入自己的处境，不是吗？
And actually, that just sends you further into your place, doesn't it?
你只需要知道，正如你之前所说，有人也经历过我们生活中最奇怪、最不寻常的部分，不是吗？
You just need to know that someone else, as you said earlier, someone else, even the most weird and unusual parts of our life, someone else has experienced the equivalent, haven't they?
哦，当然。
Oh, absolutely.
我认为这是一种共情——你可能无法完全体会身处那种境况的感觉，但你知道孤独是什么滋味。
And I think it's, you know, it's that empathy of, you might not know exactly what it feels like to be in that situation, but you know what it feels like to feel lonely.
你知道沮丧、不知所措或怨恨是什么感觉。
You know what it feels like to feel frustrated or overwhelmed or resentful.
有趣的是，前几天我度过了一个特别艰难的早晨。
And funnily enough, other day I had a really hard morning.
我们的早晨通常都很艰难，充满哭喊、尖叫、大叫和打闹，但不是我造成的。
Our mornings are often really challenging, full of a lot of crying and screaming and shouting and hitting and not me.
尽管有时我这边也会流泪，这确实会发生。
Although sometimes there are, there definitely are tears on my side as well.
我去学校时戴着大墨镜，一个朋友问我：‘你还好吗？’
And I went to school and I had my big sunglasses on and a friend, she said to me, you okay?
我一下子就哭了出来，因为那一刻我感受到了被理解，真的特别温暖。
And I just burst into tears because I just, you know, I wasn't, and it was just so lovely because I felt so seen in that moment.
然后我说，真的很抱歉。
And, you know, I was like, I'm really sorry.
她说，别担心，下周轮到我了。
She said, don't worry, it'll be me next week.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
事情反过来也发生了同样的情况。
It was the same thing happened the other way around.
接着，另一位朋友从车里出来时也问我：你还好吗？
And then again, another friend as she was getting out of the car, said, Are you okay?
今天阳光这么好，你还好吗？
It's so sunny today, are you okay?
她突然哭了起来，然后特别抱歉。
And she started crying and then she was so apologetic.
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我说：别担心，下周轮到我了。
And I said, Don't worry, it'll be me next week.
而且很可能真的会这样。
And it may well be.
我认为，正是在这些脆弱的时刻，我们才能感受到连接，人们可以陪伴在身边，他们无法解决或改变这一切，但他们能认出我们、看见我们。
And I think it's in those moments of vulnerability where we can feel that connection and people can be there and they can't fix it and they can't change it, but they can recognize us and they can see us.
我认为，当我们等到情绪彻底崩溃、倾泻而出时才允许这些时刻发生，这实在是一种遗憾。
And I think it's a shame when we wait for those moments where it all spills out and falls over that we allow those moments to happen.
我认为，最富有滋养和关怀的做法，是在这些时刻还不那么紧迫的时候主动去寻求它们。
I think the most nurturing and nourishing kind thing is to seek those moments when they don't feel so urgent.
是的，在还没到那种地步的时候。
Yeah, when it's not reached that point.
而且我觉得你提到的这一点，我有个朋友，我们的压力水平非常相似，她经常事后给我发消息说：‘抱歉又跟你倾诉了这么多。’
And also I think what you're talking about, I've got a friend who, our loads are very closely aligned and so often she'll text me afterwards and be like, Oh, I'm so sorry for bending your ear.
但我从未在这样的互动后感到不舒服。
And I've never walked away from that interaction feeling like that.
我们也必须以同样的方式对待提前下班而不道歉的关系。
And we have to try in the same way with our relationship with leaving work early and not apologize.
不要道歉。
Don't apologize.
我认为，如果你想要表达的话，正确的说法是感谢你的倾听，但不要为正在经历困难的自己道歉。
I think the framing, if you want to acknowledge it, is to say thank you for listening, but don't apologize for being a person going through stuff.
同样，这也是说给我自己听的，因为当我陪伴朋友时，我从不觉得这样有什么不对。
And again, that's a message to myself because I never feel that about being there for my friends.
要感到荣幸，因为他们正在向我展现最脆弱的自己。
Feel honored that they're being the most vulnerable version of themselves with me.
是的。
Yes.
而这正是加深联系的方式。
And this is what deepens connection.
所以，如果孤独的解药是联系，那么脆弱就是将我们连接在一起的东西。
So if the antidote to loneliness is connection, vulnerability is what connects us together.
当我们允许自己对彼此敞开心扉时，我们就赋予了对方这种特权。
So as we allow ourselves to be open with each other, we give that sense of privilege to that person.
这不常常如此吗？
It is often, isn't it?
这种深刻的特权在于，你能够陪伴在那个人身边，倾听他们、看见他们，而这产生了不同。
It's that deep privilege that you were able to be there for that person and you could hear them and you could see them and that made a difference.
是的，这就是我们的关系变得更深、更丰富的方式。
And yeah, this is how our relationships become deeper and richer.
此外，这其中还有许多层次。
And there's so many layers to this as well.
因为我在想，同样是这个朋友群体，我记得有一次去别人家，他们说：你知道吗，我们要不要就穿着运动服上门，点个外卖？
Because I'm thinking again, with this similar friendship group, I remember going round to someone's house and they're like, you know what, should we just come, should we just all turn up in our joggers and get a takeaway?
在过去，这可能会让人觉得：哦，我还没做饭呢。
And that once upon a time that could be, oh, you know, oh, I haven't cooked.
我们都没打扮。
We aren't dressing up.
我没有刻意打扮，但其实你玩得最开心，因为每个人都被邀请做真实的自己。
I'm not making an effort, but actually you have the best time because everyone's, you're inviting everybody to show up as a version of themselves.
我知道你和附近的一些人有这种关系，你们有时会一起在清晨散步。
And I know that you have relationships with people close by who you do that kind of very early morning walk with sometimes.
实际上，你不需要那些阻碍连接的外在负担，不用非得穿得体面或准备什么。
And actually not putting those layers that stand in the way of connection that make it harder to get to, that you don't have to put a good outfit on or have the things.
我们直接做吧。
Let's just do it now.
这样好多了，对吧？
It's so much better, isn't it?
是的，我记得，生第一个孩子和生第三个孩子之间的区别，而我的第二个孩子正是这个转变的催化剂。
Yeah, I remember, so the difference between having my first baby and my third baby, of which my second baby was the catalyst of this.
我的第一个孩子出生后，我第二天早上就去乐购超市了，还化了妆，事实上，我离开医院时看起来就像那几个小时根本没发生过一样。
So, my first one was very much, I was out in Sainsbury's the morning after giving birth and with makeup on, in fact I left the hospital looking like the last few hours hadn't even happened.
我记得在乐购超市里，我对丈夫说，我得去车里坐一会儿，我觉得所有东西都要掉出来了，我感觉整个人都要散架了。
And I remember going around Sainsbury's and thinking and saying to my husband, I need to go and sit in the car because I think everything's gonna, I felt like everything was gonna fall out of me.
于是我去了车里坐着，因为我意识到自己身体上已经做不到那样了。
And I went and sat in the car because I realized physically I couldn't do that.
然后我生了第二个孩子，经历了未被诊断的无声胃食管反流的真正煎熬，这以最痛苦却也最不可思议的方式让我彻底褪去了伪装。
And then I had my middle child and went through the real fire of undiagnosed silent reflux, it just really stripped me back in the most painful and incredible way.
然后，那段时间纯粹是求生模式。
And then, so that was very much just a survival time.
但当弗洛伦斯出生时，我记得我特别想说，别来了，我一团糟，因为她的朋友要来见她、见我们。
But then Florence, when I had her, I remember I was so tempted, her friend was due to come over and meet her and see us and I was so tempted to say, Don't come over, I'm a mess.
但事实上，我说的是：来吧，我一团糟。
And then actually, what I actually said was, Come over, I'm a mess.
我想，这第一次和第三次之间的区别在于：别看我的脆弱，别来，我乱糟糟的，不想让你看到我这样，一切都乱七八糟，我整个人都垮了。
And I think that was the difference between the first time and the third time was, don't look at my vulnerability, don't come over, I'm in a mess, I don't want you to see me like this, everything's a state, I'm a state.
而第三次，我真正说的是：我确实一团糟，一切都乱七八糟。
And then that third time was actually, I'm a state, everything's a state.
我需要你来，我需要你走进这个空间，陪在我身边，看见真实的我。
Need you to come I need you just to step into this space and be with me and see me.
你知道吗，这让我想到，有太多太多事了，我跟你说过我情绪不稳定。
And you know, it makes me, there's so many, I told you I was hormonal.
我跟你说过这会是一次情感充沛的谈话。
I told you this was gonna be an emotional one.
但其中蕴含着很多道理：作为人类，我们值得拥有连接。
But there's so much in that, in that as humans, we deserve connection.
我们值得被看见。
We deserve to be seen.
是的，我认为当我们感到孤独时，往往就是因为这些没有发生。
And yeah, I think when we feel lonely, often that is what is not happening.
但这会形成一个循环，不是吗？
But it becomes a cycle, doesn't it?
因为当你提到厨房里那种情况时，我会想：为什么没人知道这对我有多难？
Because when in that thing in the kitchen that you talked about, I'm like, why does nobody know how hard this is for me?
那是因为你一直把有多难表现得非常好地藏起来了。
It's because you have done such a good job at hiding how hard it is for you.
你这么做，本身就很困难。
You've, which in itself is difficult.
你又增加了这一层困难，正是如此。
You've added this difficult layer, exactly that.
比如格蕾塔，我很久都穿着睡衣，因为各位，我刚生完孩子，我需要你们都看到这一点。
Like with Greta, I was in my pajamas for a long time because guys, I've just had a baby and I need you all to see that.
所以我不会起来给你泡茶，因为我刚生完孩子。
And therefore I'm not gonna get up and make you a cup of tea because I've just had a baby.
你能看出来。
You can see it.
我看起来就像一个正在
I look like someone who's in
是啊，你可以给我泡一杯。
Yeah, you can make me one.
我正在恢复中，你看吧。
I'm in recovery, look at it.
所以我们必须学会接受放下自己的心理防线，这真的很难。
And so we have to get comfortable with letting our own barriers down and it's really difficult.
是的，因为我觉得，有时候我外表看起来最井井有条的时候，恰恰是我内心最脆弱的时候。
Yeah, because I think sometimes the times I've been most looked most put together to the world have been the times when internally I am the least.
我回过头来看，发现外表装得一切顺利，其实是我防止自己崩溃的防御机制。
And I look back and I think, looking like I have it together has been my defense against falling apart.
这是我防止别人问我‘你真的好吗？’的防御，因为我怕一旦回答，就会崩溃，而我承受不起崩溃——我有年幼的孩子，或者刚生了宝宝，或者有蹒跚学步的孩子，总之我现在不能崩溃，我必须继续正常运作。
It's been my defense against, nobody asked me if I'm actually okay because I might break and I can't afford to break because I've got young children or I've got a baby or I've got a toddler or, you know, I can't afford to break right now because I need to function.
我认为，正是这些外在的伪装向世界传递着‘我很好’的信号。
And I think it's, again, it's those barriers that tell the world that we're okay.
我特别擅长这一套。
And I'm a real one for that.
我常常看起来非常得体，因为我喜欢化妆。
Like, often look really put together because I love makeup.
我喜欢每天早上打扮自己，即使只有五分钟，即使早上很艰难，我也会出门，让自己看起来一切顺利。
I love, I like getting dressed in the morning, even if I've got five minutes, even if it's been a hard morning, I'll step out and look like I've got it together.
但事实往往不同，这很难，对吧？
But the truth is often different and it's hard, isn't it?
因为你向外界展示的样子，可能是因为你喜欢这样，或者这是一种防御机制，而人们很容易被你的外在表现所迷惑，认为那反映了你内心的状况。
Because you might present to the world in a way because you enjoy that or because it's a defense and then, you know, people are so easily seduced by how you look on the outside is an indicator of how you are on the inside.
我记得有一次，当我还在广告行业工作时，被叫去进行绩效评估。
I remember again, one of those pertinent moments when I used to work in advertising and I got pulled for appraisal.
他们说：‘安娜，如果你再努力一点，就有机会获得晋升。’
And they said, Anna, if you just work this a little bit harder, you could be in line for a promotion.
我当场哭了起来，他们只是说：‘哦，好吧，这可不是我们预期的反应。’
And started crying and they were just like, oh, okay, that's not what we were expecting.
事实上，我每天早上过沃特卢桥时都会哭着给妈妈打电话，每天晚上回家的路上也一样，我非常不快乐，只是勉强撑着做所有事情，因为我是个完美主义者，我呈现给他们的样子和真实情况完全不同。
And the reality of it was is that I'd been crying every morning on the way over the Waterloo Bridge talking to my mom, every evening on the way home, I was so unhappy, I was just about kind of managing to do everything because I was such a perfectionist that how I presented to them was completely different to the reality.
我记得一位同事说：‘安娜，如果你感到压力大，你就该看起来更疲惫一点。’
And I remember a colleague saying, Anna, if you're stressed, you need to look more stressed.
你需要看起来……他们不会相信你真的承受太多，如果你看起来一点都不累的话。
Like you need to look, you know, they won't believe that it's too much if you're not looking.
我觉得这特别难，因为这不符合我的天性，但这就是脆弱。
And I just found that so hard because it's not in my nature, but that's vulnerability.
我认为，无论我们如何向世界展示自己，无论这对我们会有利还是不利，这都是一种自律。
And I think regardless of how we present to the world, whether it works for or against us sometimes, need, it's a discipline.
脆弱是一种自律。
Vulnerability is a discipline.
我需要敞开心扉，需要进行这些对话。
It's, I need to be open with I need to be having these conversations.
我需要逼自己超越‘我很好’、‘我没事’、‘我只是有点难熬’这样的说法。
I need to be pushing myself beyond the, I'm fine, or I'm okay, or I'm just having a tough day.
对于两三个亲密的人，我会对我的客户说：你生命中要有两三个可以面对面倾诉的人，让他们真正了解你的状态。
Just with two or three people, I would say to my clients, two or three people in your life, you know, face, face level that need to know how you are.
但你说得对，这是一种本能反应，当别人问‘你好吗？’的时候。
But you're right, it's a reflex because with the, how are you?
你嘴上已经脱口而出‘哦，我很好。’
The words have come out of your mouth of, Oh yeah, I'm fine.
很好。
It's good.
嗯，还行。
Yeah, all right.
你这么做是因为这就是你的行事方式。
You do it because that's what you do.
你必须真正给人们一个诚实的答案。
And you have to actually give people the truthful answer.
前提是他们是合适的人，这从来不是负担，对吧？
Provided they're the right people, that's never a burden, is it?
不。
No.
在我生了第二个孩子后，经历产后抑郁的最低谷时期，我的朋友们其实知道我并不好，我有一些非常友善的产前朋友，是我第一次当妈妈时认识的。
And when I was in my darkest time after having my middle child and going through all the post natal depression and my friends knew that I wasn't okay, actually, and I had some lovely friends, some lovely antenatal friends that I've met first time around.
所以他们真的很关心我，但我发现把我的感受打字发到一个在线社区里要容易得多。
So they really did care about me, but I found it so much easier to type my feelings into an online community.
所以我加入了一个Facebook群组，那是我加入某个育儿中心群组之后的事。
So I'd been added to a Facebook group after joining a baby center group or something.
我发现，向那些我从未见过的女性们打字表达我的感受，比跟我的朋友谈论这些要容易得多。
And I found it easier to type my feelings to that group of women that I hadn't met before than to talk to my friends about it.
我认为有时候，有总比没有好。
And I think sometimes that has to be, something is always better than nothing.
她们充满同情、善良且支持性的回复，逐渐给了我勇气，去与我生活中真实的人交流。
And their compassionate and kind supportive responses in time gave me the confidence to speak to those physically in my life.
所以我认为，只要这种交流在发生，只要你找到了这样的空间或渠道——理想情况下是身边的人，但说实话，有些人目前生活中根本没有任何支持。
So I think, as long as it is happening, as long as you are finding those spaces or finding those, ideally it would be people around you, but let's face it, some people literally don't have supportive in their lives at the moment.
那么，你可以在哪里寻求帮助呢？即使是在网上，即使是匿名的，只要你能为自己的感受和经历增添价值，并让别人以温暖、同情和支持的方式回应你？
So where can you seek that, even if it's online, even if it's anonymous, so that you are adding value to your feelings and your experiences and allowing someone to revert with a kind and compassionate, supportive response?
你提到了‘养育一个孩子需要一个村庄’这个观点，确实，养育孩子需要整个社区的支持。
You touched on that, this idea of taking a village, and it definitely does take a village.
因为我们现在的生活方式，人们往往离家人很远，也没有那样的支持网络。
Because of the way we all live now, often people aren't close to their families or don't have that network.
这真的很难，对吧？
And it's really difficult, isn't it?
因为你需要依赖别人，没错，这很难。
Because you need to rely on people and yeah, it's hard.
这非常困难，很多时候我与母亲们进行的治疗都围绕着一个主题：我没有那样的支持网络。
It's very hard and it can come down to saying, you know, a lot of the therapy that I do with mothers is around, I haven't got that support network.
这背后有几个原因。
And there are a few reasons for that.
有时候，你身边虽然有人，但你们的关系却缺乏深度。
Sometimes it might be that you have people there, you just don't have the depth of that relationship there.
或者，你可能因为曾经有人误解过你，甚至在你生命中的某个时刻利用过你的脆弱，而害怕情感上的暴露。
Or it might be that you have, you're fearful of being emotionally vulnerable because someone has misunderstood you or maybe even abused that vulnerability at some point in your life.
所以对你来说，这样做是一件可怕的事情。
So for you, that is a terrifying thing to do.
如果他们不理解我怎么办？
What if they don't understand me?
如果他们无法认可这一点呢？
What if they can't validate that?
如果他们曲解了这一点呢？
What if they twist that?
如果，你知道的，我觉得我们感到缺乏支持网络有几个原因。
What if, you know, and I think there are a few reasons as to why we can feel village less.
这通常是因为，你知道，如果能接触到治疗，那是非常棒的。
And it's often about, you know, therapy is amazing if that can be accessed.
我有一本书叫《认识你的价值》，如果这对你来说难以获得，它可以帮助你。
I've got a book called Know Your Worth, which can help with this if that's not something that is accessible for you.
这本书讲的是增强自信，迈出这些小小的脆弱一步。
Is about growing in confidence and taking those small steps of vulnerability.
也许只是先试探一下，因为倾听你的故事和经历是一种需要赢得的特权。
And it might just, you know, testing the water because to hear your story and the scenes is a privilege that needs to be earned.
好吧，我们不需要把所有事情都告诉每个人，我们有权利希望在这样做时感到安全。
Okay, we don't need to tell everyone everything and we have a right to want to feel safe in doing so.
所以我告诉人们要尝试一些小的风险来测试一下。
So I tell people to take little risks to test it out.
也许你有一位朋友，一直以来都善良且支持你。
So it might be that you've got one friend who has historically been kind and supportive.
我总是说，选择一个历史上一直善良且支持你的人，无论程度如何。
I always say, choose someone who has historically been kind and supportive on whatever level.
也许他们问你是否还好，你就说：你知道吗？
And just, maybe they ask you if you're okay and you just say, you know what?
我通常会说好，但其实我想说：我今天早上过得特别糟糕，然后看看他们的反应。
I would normally say yes, but actually I'm gonna say, I've had a really tough morning and see how they respond.
然后下一次，再稍微进一步，看看他们的反应如何。
And maybe then next time take it that little bit further and see how they respond.
所以你实际上是在试探水温，每次稍微多迈进一步。
So you're actually, you're testing the waters and kind of dipping your toe a little bit further in each time.
希望随着时间的推移，你会找到一两个能够承受、能够支持你的人。
And hopefully what will happen in time is that you'll find a couple of people who can handle it, who can be supportive.
你说话的时候，我在想，这似乎有点不相关，但确实又回到了一个问题上。
As you're talking, I'm thinking it's slightly unrelated, but it does tie back a thing.
露西·谢里丹，那位比较教练，以前曾发邮件给我，请求我帮个忙。
Lucy Sheridan, the comparison coach, when she's previously emailed me to ask for a favor for something.
在那之后，她总是说：如果你以后需要任何帮助，别忘了问我。
And at the end of that, she always says, And if you ever need anything in return, don't forget to ask me.
我一直在等，知道吗，这是一笔我欠你的人情。
I'm waiting to, know, this is an I owe you.
我特别喜欢她最后说的那句话，因为无论六个月后、一年后，我都能因此感到很安心去那样做。
And I just love that bit of language at the end because then it makes me feel really comfortable whenever that might be six months, a year down the line to do that.
我坐在这里想，嗯，我不再是刚当妈妈的那个阶段了。
And I think I'm sitting here thinking, well, I'm not in the early baby bit anymore.
我确实感觉自己比以前更稳重了，能够向那些可能需要帮助的人提供支持，因为我觉得这正是任务所在，对吧？
And I do feel kind of a bit more grounded than I have to be able to offer that up to the people that might not, because I think that's the task, isn't it?
把这种支持从别人那里引导出来，去帮助他们。
To pull that out of other people to try and help them.
反过来，希望当你需要时，你也能做到同样的事。
And then in turn, hopefully when you need it, you're able to do the same.
是的，我认为大家都知道，事情总是有起有落，有时你可能会觉得让朋友陪伴自己很不舒服，但也要表达出来。
Yeah, and I think it's known that, things do come in swings and roundabouts and sometimes you might feel really uncomfortable that you're allowing a friend to be there for you, but also verbalize that.
我可能会对朋友说：我想聊聊你。
I might say to a friend, I wanna talk about you.
她可能会说：不，安娜，我们得聊聊你。
And she might say, No, Anna, we need to talk about you.
我会想：天啊，我真觉得这很不舒服。
And I'm like, Oh gosh, I find it so uncomfortable.
她可能会说：总会轮到我的。
And she might say, Well, it'll be my turn at some point.
有时候，这纯粹是你的时机，世界就是这样运作的，总会有他们的时机。
And sometimes it's just your time and the way that the world works, it will be their time at some point.
就是相信这一点，没错。
And it's just trusting that, yeah.
我认为在产后这件事上，虽然有点老生常谈，但我总是记得人们会说：‘我能帮你什么吗？’
And I think also in that postpartum thing, it's a bit of a cliche, but I always remember people saying, Oh, how can I help?
因为你的大脑一片混乱，你也不知道该说什么，我根本无法表达出来。
And because your brain is gone and because you don't know, because you don't, I could never even verbalize that.
但如果现在有朋友或兄弟姐妹生了孩子，我会说：‘让我过来给你带顿饭吧。’
Whereas if someone had a baby now, a close friend or a sibling, I would say, Let me come over and bring you a meal.
让我过来带你的孩子去公园。
Let me come over and take your kids to the park.
同样，当你有能力以最有用的方式去支持别人时，这就是那种来来回回的循环。
Again, that swings and roundabouts when you're able to be the one who can be there for someone doing that in the most useful way possible, I suppose.
是的，有时候你说‘是的，谢谢’时，可能手心出汗、心跳加速，但这既是对自己的肯定，也是对孩子的支持。
Yeah, and I think sometimes your yes please feels, you might say that with your palm sweating and your heart racing, but that's a gesture to yourself and also a gesture to your children.
当有人提供你真正需要的帮助，而你内心却只想说‘不用了，谢谢，我没事，别担心’的时候。
Like when someone is offering support that you actually need and everything in you is wanting to say, no, thank you, I'm fine, don't worry about it.
你知道吗，再次想想，如果你能向朋友表达出这些感受，会是什么样子？
You know, again, what would it be like to verbalize that to your friends?
我内心所有部分都想说不，但我正在努力挑战自己，说‘好的，谢谢’。
Say everything in me wants to say no, but I'm really challenging myself to say yes, please.
所以我要说：好的，谢谢。
So I'm gonna say yes, please.
但要知道，这让我无比感激。
But know that this is And I'm so grateful.
我通常会说不，但这次我想说好。
And I'd normally say no, but I wanna say yes.
而且，这进一步加深了这种关系，因为当我们彼此依靠时，它丰富了我们的关系，也让我们建立了连接。
And again, that just deepens that because when we lean on each other, it's enriching that relationship and it's giving us that connection.
因为所有最好的朋友，对我来说，生命中最重要的那些人，都是那些我与之分享最多的人。
Because all your best friends are the ones who you've, or for me, or the most important people in my life are the people who I've shared the most with.
是的，他们见过我最糟糕的样子。
And yeah, they've seen me at my absolute worst.
然后我们才能一起庆祝，了解彼此最美好的一面。
And then you get to celebrate and knowing each other at their best.
我还在想，试着想想能怎么帮助这一点。
I'm also thinking, trying to think of ways to help this.
我知道你和我之间有一件特别喜欢的事，那就是我们平时根本不会每天联系，但偶尔我们会互相发语音消息，分享一些完全天马行空的胡思乱想。
I know something that you and I really do, which I love is that we're not in touch like day to day at all, but once in a while we said, we voice note each other with utterly like mental ramblings.
但我觉得，虽然语音消息不能代替面对面相见，但想到有人特意想起你，只是想和你分享他们脑海里的想法，这种感觉真的很美好。
But I think while a voice note isn't the same as seeing someone, it's so nice that idea that someone's thought of you and that they're just sharing what's in their head.
人们很容易只是想到某个人，然后什么也不做，但真正说一句‘我看到了这个，就想到你了，希望你一切安好’，这些生活中的小瞬间，真的会让人感到被看见。
It's so easy just to think of someone and then do nothing with it, but actually just saying, yeah, I saw this, I thought of you, hope you're well, just is those little moments in a day that really do make you feel like you're seen, I suppose.
我觉得语音消息很棒，我们很容易忽视这些小事，但归根结底，有总比没有好。
I think voice notes are wonderful and I think it's so easy to overlook the small things, you know, but then again, it's that going back to something is always better than nothing.
疫情期间，我们对数字连接感到如此疲惫，但也不得不承认，正是这些连接让我们坚持了下来，因为总比什么都没有强。
We got so fatigued by the digital connection over the pandemic, we also have to admit that that was what kept us going at the same time, because it was better than nothing.
它可能像一块薯片，而你想要的是一顿丰盛的烤肉，永远无法完全满足你的渴望，但总比没有强。
It might feel like, a crisp when you want a full roast, it's never fully feeding you what you're craving, but it's better than nothing.
我觉得语音消息很棒，因为它们比文字消息更有层次感。
And I think voice notes are amazing because they have that they're more nuanced than the messages.
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know what I mean?
你不太容易产生误解或对事情有不同的理解。
You're less likely to kind of get cross wires and interpret things differently.
是声音，我觉得这更像对话，我特别喜欢，因为我可以存起来，在开车时听，感觉就像……你知道的，感觉更有连接感。
It's the voice and I think it's more conversational and I love them because I can store them up and listen to them in the car or, and it feels like, you know, it feels more like connection.
当你真的见面时，彼此之间已经有些东西了。
And then when you actually do get to see each other, there's something already there.
有一种默契在那里。
There's a knowingness there.
我觉得，是的，我觉得。
I think, yeah, I think.
这有点像礼物，不是吗？
A bit of a gift, aren't they?
是的。
Yeah.
我意识到时间有限，但你刚才提到的数字连接这一点，我知道这可能是个问题，对你们和我来说，从更大的层面看，但人们因为看到我在社交媒体上做的内容——这也是我工作的一部分——就觉得自己和我有联系，觉得自己参与了我的生活。
I'm conscious of time, but one thing you did tap in on with that digital connection, I know that it's something that can be problematic and for you and I, on a bigger scale, but people are, again, because they're seeing what I'm doing on social media, which is part of my job, they feel like they're in contact with me and that they're part of my lives.
他们会觉得：哦，对，你一直在做这个、这个和这个。
And they're like, Oh yeah, you've been doing this, this, this, and this coming.
但其实你和我之间并没有这种联系，你只是旁观了这一切，这可能会让人感觉非常难受。
It's like, we haven't had that connection between you and I, you've observed it and that can feel really difficult.
是的，正如我所说，这是我们的工作，但这种情况在任何拥有社交媒体存在感的人身上都很常见。
And yeah, as I say, it's our jobs, but that's happening often with all of anyone with their social presence.
我认为我们必须记住，仅仅因为我们在网上看到了某些内容，并不意味着真正的连接已经发生。
And I think we have to remember just because we've seen it on the internet doesn't mean that that connection's happened for real.
是的。
Yes.
我记得有个朋友，不是故意忽略我的消息，但就是不回复。
And actually I remember a friend kind of just not ignoring my messages, but just not kind of replying to them.
我就问：怎么了？这到底是怎么回事？
And I said, what's gone, like, what's this about?
我们做朋友已经很久了。
We've been friends for so long.
她说，说实话，我每天都在动态里看到你。
And she said, to be honest, I just see you every day on stories.
我觉得我和你有联系。
I feel like I am connected with you.
而我觉得，我现在的生活中发生了太多事情，但这些都没有在社交媒体上展示出来。我当时刚怀孕，特别难受，病得非常非常厉害。
And I'm like, there is so much going on in my life right now that is not on I think I was early pregnant, really struggling with just being incredibly, incredibly sick.
我生活中还有其他事情，但我在上面没有分享。
And there was other stuff going on in my life that I wasn't sharing on there.
这不就是一种错觉吗？
It's just that illusion, isn't it?
我觉得有时候我们会相信自己看到的东西。
And I think it's sometimes we believe what we see.
所以我们必须有意识地提醒自己，事情远不止这些。
So we have to consciously remind ourselves that there's more there.
那里还有更多故事。
There's more of a story there.
所以如果你在Instagram上关注一个朋友，别让那成为你们之间的全部联系，因为他们其实有很多更丰富的故事愿意与你分享。
So if you're watching a friend on Instagram, then, you know, don't let that be your connection because there is more of a story that they will be happy to share with you.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，我妈妈有时候会说：‘我正等着你再发一张照片到Instagram上呢，克洛伊。’
And actually my mom sometimes is like, oh, I'm just waiting for you to put another picture on Instagram, Chloe.
妈妈，你想知道什么照片，直接问我就好了。
Mom, just ask me whatever picture you want.
是啊，我会给你寄封信的。
Yeah, I'll send you I'll another send you a letter then.
等不及要发Instagram了。
Can't wait for Instagram.
绝对不要。
Definitely not.
而且，我的生活中还有一部分，我只对那些人展现同样的脆弱，我想与他们分享。
And again, there's a whole part of my life that I, it's the same vulnerability that I do reserve for those people and I want to share with them.
并不是说Instagram是一种幻觉。
That isn't that Instagram is an illusion.
而是因为这是我的生活不同方面的呈现，以及那种筛选。
It's just because it's different versions of my life and the filtering.
确实如此。
Definitely.
在你离开之前，我还有两个问题。
So, two questions before you have to nip off.
关于你的新书，你最想大声宣传的是什么？
What do you have to shout about your new book?
是的，《平静的小更大》。
Yes, The Little Bigger of Calm.
这本书名为《给新手妈妈》，但实际上，读者反馈说，书里的内容对所有妈妈都有用，而且它并不是一本需要从头读到尾的书。
So, it's called For New Moms, but actually the overwhelm with feedback is that it's for there's stuff in there for all moms and it's not a front to back book.
你只需直接挑一个情绪。
You just literally pick an emotion.
前面有一整张情绪清单，比如无聊、怨恨、愤怒、孤独。
There's a whole list of emotions at the front from boredom, resentment, anger, loneliness.
有太多人感到精疲力尽了。
It's just so many touched out.
你只需翻到那一页，上面只有几句话，能帮你安定下来、给予鼓励，稍微理清或重新解读那种情绪。
And you just flip to that page and there's just a few words there to ground and encourage and just untangle or reframe that emotion a little bit.
所以这就是
So that's
它的样子。
what it is.
你说它不是一本从头读到尾的书，这真有趣，但这种书反而会让人忍不住一直翻看。
It's funny you say it's not a front to back book, but it's the sort of book that then does draw you anxious.
是的，你说到点子上了。
Oh yes, you've nailed it.
我继续讲下一个，然后是再下一个。
I'll go on to the next one and then the next one.
是的，我希望如此。
Yeah, I hope so.
我希望它能成为那样一本书，让人感觉这些话正是你此刻需要听到的。
Want it to be that book that feels like these are the words that you need to hear.
这些话，你知道，在那些孤独的时刻，孤独感渗透在他们许多情绪中，因为他们觉得在这些情绪中自己是孤单的，而有一些话语能帮助你意识到，你并不是独自一人。
These, you know, in those moments of loneliness and there's loneliness in so many of their feelings because feel alone in them, you know, just having some words to help you realize that you're not alone in that.
就像这种感受足够普遍，以至于我把它写进了书里，是的，只是为了帮助你重新看待它，消除羞耻感，注入一些同情与理解。
Like it's common enough for me to have written it down in a book and yeah, just to help reframe it and take the shame out of it and bring some compassion into it.
和你所有的书一样，这本也太棒了。
It's fantastic as all your books are.
最后一个问题是，如果你能和一个人进行一次坦诚的对话，你会选谁？你会对他说什么？
And last question, if you could have an honest conversation with one person, who would it be and what would you say?
天哪。
Goodness me.
嗯，这很难，不是吗？
Well, is hard, isn't it?
我本该料到这个问题的。
And I should have seen this one coming.
会是谁呢？
Who would it be?
嗯，我首先想到的是布琳·布朗。
So, well, just, Brene Brown springs to mind.
我的意思是，我狂热地阅读她所有的作品，但我甚至不确定我会和她进行怎样的坦诚对话，因为她已经分享了太多东西。
I mean, just cause I devour all of her stuff, I'm not even sure what that honest conversation would be because she literally shares so much.
她是脆弱性的女王。
She's the queen of vulnerability.
她分享的正是我只想待在她身边的东西。
She shares what I think I'd just quite like to be in her presence.
然后去吸收它。
And absorb it.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，是的。
Oh yeah.
我希望不会出现见到偶像后却失望的情况，相反，那应该会很棒。
I hope it wouldn't be a case of meeting your heroes and then no, it should be great.
应该会非常棒。
Should be really great.
应该会很棒。
Should be great.
是的。
Yeah.
除了说‘我爱你’之外，这不会是一次真诚的对话。
It wouldn't be an honest conversation other than to say, I love you.
还有你所创造的世界，她作为引领之光，真是位女王。
And the world that you do, what a queen that she is for being the guiding light on
一切。
it all.
哦，那个关于脆弱性的TED演讲，我记得当时在黑暗中散步时听了它。
Oh, that power of vulnerability TED talk was it, I remember listening to that walking around tooting common in a really dark place.
那成了我人生转变的催化剂，彻底改变了我之后的人生。
And that was a catalyst for change that it's changed the rest of my life.
我完全同意。
I completely agree.
她只是清晰地表达了那种脆弱性所呼唤的勇气。
She just articulates that, like the call to courage that is vulnerability.
这让我觉得，自己对整个存在以及理解世界的方式都好多了。
It's like, oh, you've just kind of made me feel better about my entire existence and the way I process the world.
是的。
Yes.
如果脆弱是一种弱点，它就不会这么难了。
If it was a weakness, it wouldn't be so hard.
这是勇气，这是连接。
It's bra it's bravery and it, this is connection.
这才是激发连接的原因。
This is what inspires connection.
这是对抗孤独的解药。
And this is the antidote to loneliness.
所以，所以布伦妮，
So, so Brunei,
就是这样。
there we go.
该用这句话收尾了。
What one to end on.
安娜，谢谢你带来如此美妙的对话。
You, Anna for a, a gorgeous, gorgeous chat.
让我们真的约个时间，面对面见个面吧。
And let's do that thing where we actually see each other in real life.
是的，我们会的。
Yes, we will.
让我们一起实现吧。
Let's, let's, let's make that happen.
好的。
Okay.
嗯。
Yeah.
祝你剩下的时间精彩愉快，非常感谢你。
Have a brilliant rest Thank of your you so much.
与安娜进行这样一场对话，其讽刺或令人欣慰之处在于，它天然地让我感到不那么孤单。
Well, is it the irony or the pleasing thing about a conversation like that with Anna is that it inherently makes me feel less lonely.
我看着安娜和她所做的事情，当她说到自己多么精致得体时，你会觉得这个女孩一切都安排得很好。
I look at Anna and the work that she does and as she says how beautifully groomed she is and you think that girl's got it together.
她拥有一个很好的支持网络。
She's got a great support network.
她怎么可能感到孤独呢？
How could she ever feel lonely?
或者她怎么可能在丈夫家门口哭泣呢？
Or how could she ever be crying on the doorstep to her husband?
请放心，大多数人，如果不是所有人，都会经历这样的时刻。
Rest assured, most people, if not everyone, has these moments.
而这种认知本身就足以让我在陷入孤独和潜在怨恨时，学会停下来，或许还能勇敢地告诉别人，事情并没有你表面上看起来那么顺利。
And that knowledge in and of itself is enough to tip the balance for me so that when I am spiraling in loneliness and potential resentment, to know to stop myself and and hopefully to do the brave thing and just let someone know that it isn't going as well as perhaps you're making it appear.
就这样了。
So that's that.
非常感谢你的聆听。
Thank you so much for listening.
这是《但为什么》的又一集。
It's been another episode of But Why.
我始终非常想知道你的想法，想知道你们两人是否也曾感到孤独。
I'm always, always interested to hear what you think, to know if you two have ever felt lonely.
请通过 Butt Y 的 Instagram 或 Butt Y at Clemmy Telford 联系我。
Please do get in touch on at Butt Y Insta or Butt Y at Clemmy Telford.
我期待听到你的声音。
I'd look forward to hearing you from you.
我现在要去换床单，把东西装上车了。
I am now off to change all the beds and shovel the stuff in the car.
我们要卖房子了。
We're selling the house.
照片已经拍好了，现在第一批看房即将开始。
We've had the photos taken, but we've got the first lot of viewings happening.
这意味着我们需要基本上清理掉多余的物品，让房子看起来更吸引人。
And that means, basically, trying to declutter our lives and make it look a bit more appealing.
所以我现在要去忙这个了。
So I'm off to do that.
祝你今天愉快。
Have a good day.
下周再聊。
Speak to you next week.
再见。
Bye bye.
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