为什么我女儿不让我丈夫执行日常事务？——艾玛·斯万伯格博士

如果你想收听更多本播客内容，《育儿热线》所有剧集现已在BBC Sounds上线。你好，这里是CBB育儿热线服务。有什么可以帮您？

If you want more of this podcast, all episodes of Parenting Helpline are available now on BBC Sounds. Hello, you've reached CBB's parenting helpline. How can we help?

事情是这样的，我只是好奇父母们如何应对育儿评估的费用问题。我的疑问是关于感到不堪重负的。

So all it is, I was just wondering how parents deal with the cost of nurse reviews. My question is to do with feeling overwhelmed.

对我的年轻家庭而言，金钱和时间哪个更宝贵？

Which is more valuable to my young family, My money or my time?

我觉得没人会让你准备好面对

I don't think anybody prepares you for

这些事情有多艰难。

how hard this stuff is.

节目中我们会接听像你我这样的新手父母来电。现在是她哄我睡觉了。别闹。不，她才没有。

On the show, we take calls from new parents like you and me. She puts me to bed now. Stop it. No, she doesn't.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我真的感到很沮丧。

I'm really frustrated.

我需要

I need

休息一下。并且有位专家嘉宾会给我们提供一些简单易用的育儿建议。好的。过去十年我一直在开发一套工具包。

a break. And an expert guest gives us some easy to use parenting help. Okay. I have spent the last decade developing a toolkit.

我会给你一些，可以说是对任何听众都适用的、真正可操作的实用建议。

I'll give you some, like, real actionable tips which applies to absolutely anybody listening.

我认为首先要明白很多人都面临这个问题。

The first thing I think is to know that loads of people get this.

这是人们应该能够公开讨论的最后几个话题之一。所以本期节目，我们邀请到了Emma Svanberg博士。

It's one of the last remaining to be topics that people should be able to talk about. So for this episode, we are joined by Doctor. Emma Svanberg.

Emma博士是一位临床心理学家，专门为父母及准父母提供心理辅导。你今天感觉怎么样，Emma？

Doctor. Emma is a clinical psychologist who specialises in working with parents and parents to be. How are you today, Emma?

我很好，非常感谢。能来到这里真是太好了。

I'm great. Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here.

我们对这次对话感到非常兴奋。在本期节目中，我们将全面了解依恋风格的迷人科学，它们对我们的意义，对我们的孩子意味着什么，以及如何帮助我们建立联系和纽带。

We are so excited about this conversation. So this episode we are going to be learning all about the fascinating science of attachment styles, what they mean for us, what they mean for our children and how they can help us relate to and bond.

在深入探讨之前，我们很想了解在你早期的育儿经历中，有没有什么特别突出的时刻让你觉得‘要是有一些育儿建议就好了’？

Now before we go there, we would love to know in your early years of parenting, does anything stand out where you thought you know what I could have really done with some parenting advice?

是的，太多了。从何说起呢？我想是因为我一直觉得自己掌握了育儿心理学，有专业的知识，在和孩子建立联系、思考他们的心理健康状况以及如何满足他们的心理需求方面得到了很多支持。但其他所有事情，比如准备饭菜或每天收拾那些小小的玩具，这些日常生活的混乱，我觉得自己真的很需要帮助。

Yes, so many. Where to begin? I think because I always felt like I had the kind of psychology of parenting, had my professional expertise, I had a lot of support around me in terms of kind of bonding with my children, in terms of thinking about what their psychological well-being was all about, how to meet their psychological needs. It was all the other stuff that I think I really could have done with help with, like the meal prep or all of the tidying up tiny, tiny little toys every day. Just the disruption to your daily life.

所以我觉得，如果只需要照顾孩子，那完全没问题。我也听到很多父母这样说，压力往往来自于同时应对其他所有事情。

So I feel like if I only had to look after my children, that would have been absolutely fine. And I hear this from a lot of parents as well, that the stress that gets created is often around juggling everything else.

是的。对于那些正在经历这种情况，并且觉得‘我在某一方面准备得很充分，但在另一方面却完全没有准备’的人，你会对他们说什么？

Yeah. I mean what would you say to somebody who was going through that and who was thinking, oh, I feel like I'm really prepared in one aspect but just not really in another?

我认为这是育儿过程中不可避免的一部分，总有些事情你会觉得更有掌控力，有些事情则可能发挥你的优势。对我来说，我一直不是一个很有条理的人，所以在日常事务上总是会有些挣扎。因此，我认为，找到一些方法来支持你处理那些不太容易的事情很重要。这可能是一些非常实际的事情，比如准备饭菜，或者有时让别人帮忙填满冰箱，如果可能的话，让朋友参与进来。

I think it's an inevitable part of parenting that there are going to be some things that you feel much more in control of. Maybe there are some things that play to your strengths. You know, that's always been case the for me that I'm not the most organized of people, so I was always going to be struggling with the routine. So I think, you know, being able to find ways that will support you in dealing with the things that maybe don't come so easily. And that might be really practical things, so like meal prepping or getting other people to help stock your fridge sometimes if you can do that, getting friends involved.

我过去常做的一件事是和其他家长带着孩子一起吃饭，我们几乎像是一种轮流做饭的安排。这样每周有两天晚上，我们会坐在别人家里，大家一起帮忙做饭和收拾。这意味着你回家时就不用再处理那些家务了。

One of the things that I used to do was we'd often go and eat meals with other parents with their children so we'd almost do like a meal swap arrangement So which was I knew that like two nights a week, we would be sitting at somebody else's house, we would all help cook and tidy up together. And then it means that you can kinda get home and you haven't had to deal with that bit.

这其实真的很棒，因为这是个好主意。通常最糟糕的部分，就像你说的，是收拾和保持家里整洁。能消除这一点真是天才。好的，我们接通听众的电话好吗？

That's really nice actually because Such a good idea. Quite often, the worst part, like you're saying, is the tidying up and keeping the house in check. Actually to eliminate that, that's genius. Right. Shall we get our caller on the line?

太好了，非常期待。我们开始吧。您好，感谢您致电育儿热线。

Lovely. Very excited. Let's do it. Hello. Thank you for calling Parenting Helpline.

请问您的名字和您从哪里打来的？

Can I ask your name and where you're calling from?

我叫阿布拉，我从赫特福德郡打来的。

My name is Abra and I'm calling from Hertfordshire.

太好了。今天我们能帮您什么？

Amazing. How can we help you today?

我想咨询关于我两岁半女儿的问题。她只想要我这个妈妈，不喜欢她爸爸参与她做的任何事情。当我不在家时情况还好。

I would like some advice regarding my two year old. She's two and a half. She only wants me as her mum. She doesn't like her dad getting involved in anything she does. When I'm not home it's okay.

她很高兴和他在一起。他们确实有一些独处的时间。周日上午他们会一起参加亲子游泳课。我们试图创造这些独处的机会，但似乎没什么帮助。我丈夫其实在家，你知道的，他并不是整天在办公室。

She is happy to be with him. And they do have some one on one time. They swim together in a dad and tots class on a Sunday morning. So we are trying to create those opportunities for that one to one time but it doesn't seem to help. My husband is around, you know, he's not like in the office.

他每周有两天在家办公，所以她确实能见到他。在她还是个小婴儿时身体不太好，因此她和我待在一起的时间远多于和我丈夫。

He works from home two days a week so she does get to see him. When she was a very small baby she wasn't very well so she was with me much more than she was with my husband because of that.

明白了。所以在她幼年时期你们也经历了相当艰难的阶段？

Right. So you've been through quite a difficult experience as well in her early life?

是的。

Yes.

很遗憾听到这些。幼儿在学步期突然表现出对父母某一方的偏爱是很常见的现象。通常他们更依赖主要照顾者——多数情况下是母亲或陪伴时间更长的人。所以最重要的是要明白，这是发育过程中非常正常的现象，尤其是当孩子主要由某个人照料时。他们就会特别依恋那个人吗？

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. And it's really common for children in the toddler years to suddenly show preference for one parent over another. Often it is the primary caregiver which is most often the mum or whoever's been around the most. So that's the most important thing to say I think is that it's really normal part of development and particularly when there has been one person who's predominantly been caring for them. Do they just get really attached to that one person?

想想两岁、两岁半或三岁孩子的特点，他们大约在18个月到两岁时就开始意识到自己可以有所偏好。就像他们可能更喜欢蓝色盘子而非绿色盘子，或特别钟情某个玩具那样，他们也开始对生活中的人做出选择。可能突然表现出对某个人强烈的偏爱。我很好奇，Evra，当她表现出偏爱时会发生什么？比如早晨如果爸爸试图抱她起床时她尖叫，你们会怎么处理？

And if you think about what two year olds, two and a half year olds, three year olds are like, they realize at about 18 or two I actually have a choice about the things that I prefer. And in just the same way that they might prefer the blue plate over the green plate or they might want to have this particular toy over a different particular toy, they also start to choose between the people in their lives. So they might all of a sudden show a really strong preference for one person over another. I'd be really curious to know, Evra, what happens when she does show a preference? So let's say in the morning if dad comes in to try and get her out of bed and she screams, what will happen around that?

早晨通常我会去照顾她，因为我们还有个年长的孩子，我不想她把姐姐吵醒。所以我去安抚她。但有时晚上我们会坚持让爸爸带她回房间，陪她直到平静下来，然后进行讲故事等睡前程序。

In the mornings I will usually go to her on the basis that we have an older sibling so I don't want her waking her up. And so I go to her but then sometimes when it's bedtime we will just persevere and then dad will take her up to her room and just stay with her till she calms down and can do stories and the bedtime routine.

那么该如何打破这种局面呢？如何打破常规？怎样才能让这种情况不再发生？

How do you break that then? How do you break the mould? Like how does this stop happening?

我认为正如阿芙拉所说，关键在于坚持。听起来你已经在做各种努力向她表明你依然在关心她、爱她——比如现在由爸爸负责睡前仪式，你在爸爸身边很安全，爸爸也同样爱你，而且我知道你和爸爸相处得很好，所以我会道晚安然后离开。对于被孩子哭喊着需要的父母来说，这确实很难做到。那种呼唤真的会揪住你的心弦。

Well I think exactly what Avra is saying is that just persevering with, you know, it sounds like you're doing all of the things to show her that you're still there, you still love her, but this bedtime Daddy's doing it and you're safe with daddy and daddy loves you too and I know that you're okay with him so I'm gonna say goodnight and leave you to it. That can be really hard to do as the parent who is being shouted for. You know that really pulls on your heartstrings.

确实如此。

Yes it does.

非常揪心。某种程度上

Really pull. It's kind of

相当困难。

quite difficult.

而且令人难过，对吧？因为你全身心都在呼喊：我的孩子需要我，我必须去陪她。但事实上你现在做的——支持丈夫陪伴女儿，传递'你和爸爸在一起很安全，就像和我在一起一样，我会在附近做自己的事'这个信息——才是正确的。和应对幼儿许多情况一样，关键在于保持一致性。你可以把这句话变成类似咒语的重复：我知道你难过，我知道你想要我，但爸爸在这里陪着你，爸爸也很爱你。

And it's upsetting, right, because everything in your body is saying, my child wants me, I need to go and be with my child. But actually exactly what you're doing which is just supporting him to be with her, Giving that message to her, you're okay with dad, you know, you're just as safe and secure with dad as you are with me and I'm going to be right here doing my own thing. The important thing as with so many things with toddlers is just that you demonstrate consistency. So being able to repeat that same, you know, it can almost become a mantra. Like I know that you're upset, I know that you want me, but daddy's here with you and daddy loves you.

要明白这对她而言，只是需要接受这种抗议情绪。没错。她可以感到难过，可以表现出偏好，但我们不需要特别处理。我们完全可以按照正常的睡前程序继续进行。

And knowing that, you know, that is for her, it's just about accepting the protest. Yeah. Yeah. Actually it's okay that you're upset, it's okay that you're showing a preference, but we don't need to do anything about that. We can kind of carry on with the bedtime routine as it normally is.

我们能给予孩子最珍贵的礼物之一，就是接纳他们的情绪——即使那些情绪看似强烈到不合理。通过让父亲看透她抗议背后的痛苦，你也在教会她：爸爸同样能应对这种情况，他在爸爸身边是安全的。我不会急于介入解决问题，因为这可能形成一种循环模式，让父亲在处理情感困扰时感到无力。作为更受孩子偏爱的家长，若你总是出面‘救火’，最终可能导致自己不堪重负、精疲力竭。

One of the greatest gifts that we can give our children is tolerating their emotions even when they feel really big, even when they don't really make sense to us. So by allowing her dad to see through that protest, that level of distress, you're also teaching her that daddy can also handle that and that we know that you're safe with dad, I'm not going to kind of rush in to be able to come in and fix things because that can really set up a cycle where the dad can feel a little bit disempowered in terms of not being able to handle that emotional distress for you as the other parent, as the preferred parent, you know, you're constantly kind of coming in to fix things that can set up a pattern where you can feel really overburdened, really exhausted, really burnt out.

我猜父母双方的沟通协调也很关键。你们是否有时间交流？比如能抽空单独聊聊吗？

I'm guessing it's really important for two parents to make sure they're communicating as well. If there's time for you both to chat over, are you doing that? Like do you guys get time to just chat between the two of you?

是的，我们经常沟通。正因为有良好的交流，我们才更想以团队形式共同解决这个问题。

Yes, we definitely do. We have really good communication and that's why we feel like we want to work together to solve this very much so like a team together.

但同样重要的是，你们要共同承认这件事的艰难程度。当孩子哭喊着要你时，那种被拒绝的 parenting 体验对双方都极具挑战性。

But equally then I think it's really important that you both acknowledge how hard it is. You know, it's really hard and when you've got a child who's really crying for you, that's really hard for you. It's hard to be a parent feeling rejected. That's also very difficult.

当下可能会觉得这种状况永无止境，但这终将是个过渡阶段，我说得对吗？没错，绝对会过去。因为我们也要面临同样的情况。

And in the moment I guess it feels like it's never going to end, but it will be a phase that will end, am I right in saying that? Yes, absolutely. Because we're going to do the same thing as well.

我们每天都在想：今天会是转折点吗？

Every day we're like is today the day?

是的，转机往往突如其来。孩子的成长就是这样——那个曾让你长期困扰的问题，某天你蓦然回首会发现：她已经很久没为我哭闹了，甚至记不清上次发生是什么时候。

Yes, it will happen like that. You know that is how children operate, all of a sudden this problem that felt like so consuming for you for such a long time. Suddenly you look back and you say, Oh, she hasn't cried for me for ages. Actually I can't remember the last time that that happened.

你觉得这对Avra有帮助吗？你还有其他问题吗，还是觉得已经得到了所需的帮助？

Do you feel like that's helped Avra? Do you have any more questions or do you feel like you've got what you needed?

是的，没有了，谢谢。这让我感到非常安心，也得到了一些好主意，就像小小的根源标记，提醒我们有哪些方面可以一起改进。

I do. No thank you, I do. It feels very reassuring and some good ideas as little root markers to remind us of areas we can maybe improve on together.

听起来你做得很好。确实如此。

It sounds like you're doing a great job. You are.

非常感谢你的来电。

Thank you so much for Thank calling so much.

再见，Ada。谢谢你的建议。再见。

Bye, Ada. Thank you for your advice. Bye.

拜拜。嗨，友情提醒一下，关于这个话题以及更多内容，CBeebies育儿网站上还有大量的小贴士和建议。她让我想起几周前我的小女儿也经历过一个阶段，只愿意让我给她刷牙，每次都不要她爸爸。不过后来这其实变成了一种小游戏。

Bye bye. Hi, just a friendly reminder, there's plenty more tips and advice on this topic and more on the CBeebies parenting website. She just reminded me of my little girl a couple of weeks ago went through a phase of just wanting me to just simply brush her teeth. She didn't want her dad every time. But it become a bit of a game actually.

我

I

我记得大概是第二天还是第三天的时候。我当时就想，哦，好吧，我大概能看出事情会怎么发展了。所以我就一直假装在她需要刷牙的时候我要去上厕所，这样就得让她爸爸来帮她刷牙。

I kind of I think it was the it was the second or third day. And I was just like, oh, okay. I can see where this could potentially go. So Yeah. I just kept pretending that I needed to use the loo at the time she needed to have a teeth brush, which meant that her dad had to do it.

就是这么简单的一件事。虽然我不确定这是不是正确的方式，但对我们这个家庭来说确实有效。是的，是的。因为有时候你确实需要额外的帮助，不是吗？

And it was something so simple like that. Well, I mean, I don't know if that's the the the right way to go about it, but for us as a family, it worked. Yeah. Yeah. Because at some point you do you do need that extra help, don't you?

如果孩子整天只缠着你，就算你再爱他们，每个人也都需要喘口气的时间。

If it's just you they're coming to you $24.07, as much as you love them, everybody still needs that breather.

这种情况经常发生，尤其是当他们两岁半或三岁左右时，开始意识到：哦，这个家庭里还有一段与我无关的关系存在。

And it's so frequent, particularly when they get to about two and a half or three, they start to kind of realize, oh there's a whole other relationship going on here in this family that has nothing to do with me.

没错，我超爱这种状态！

Yes, I love it!

他们可能会试图介入这种关系，甚至会出现'那是我妈妈'的占有行为。

And they might kind of insert themselves a little bit into that relationship and there can be a bit of that's my mummy.

但看着另一半这样其实很难受，因为在我家我也经历着类似的情况。我不在时完全没问题，但只要我在场，现在孩子就只缠着我——比如从幼儿园回来，他爸爸特别兴奋地说'阿尔法·杰克你回来啦'，孩子却直躲着说'不要爸爸，不要爸爸'。这真的很让人心碎，因为他只是想在下班后抱抱儿子，可孩子却拒绝他。

It's really hard to watch the other parent though, because obviously in my house like I'm going through a bit of the same as well. Absolutely fine when I'm not there. But whenever I am there, it seems to be me at the moment to the point of walking in after nursery and his dad's so excited. He's like, oh, Alpha Jack's your home and he's like, no, no, dada, no, dada. And it's really upsetting because all he wants to do is give his son a hug at the end of the day and he doesn't want him.

那么我们该如何让他明白这不是针对他个人的？只是他现在有些偏袒，与你无关。因为我觉得有时候这会让人感到有点，不是生气，而是有点沮丧，像是，唉，我还能做些什么呢？这确实令人沮丧。

So how how do we kind of like get past that and let him know that it's nothing to take personal? It's just he can't, he's just got this favoritism right now, it's nothing to do with you. Because I think sometimes it can get a little bit like, not upset, but just a bit like disheartened that like, oh, well what more can I really do? It is disheartening,

你知道，你那么渴望见到某人。我是说，对任何人都会这样吧？如果你说，嗨，见到你真高兴。然后他们说，哦！感觉真的很拒绝。

you know, you're so keen to see somebody. I mean it would be like that with anybody wouldn't it? If you were like, hi, I'm so happy to see you. And then they say, oh! Feels really rejecting.

我认为作为父母最难的事情之一，就是保持那种坚定的信念：我知道这个孩子爱我，我知道他们会在自己的时间来找我，而我就像一座稳固的灯塔，随时准备着迎接他们。我觉得会有很多情绪涌现，我的工作中很大一部分就是处理我们成为父母后作为成年人所面临的情绪。我们可能以为自己心理很健康，甚至做过治疗或大量的自我成长工作，但有了孩子后可能会引发很多原始情绪。确实如此。其中一些可能是非常自然的感受，比如被拒绝、困惑或沮丧，这些都是我们作为父母都会经历的常见体验。但如果你之前的生活中有过困难的关系模式或童年经历，这些可能会以非常原始的方式浮现，并开始影响我们与孩子的关系。

And I think that one of the hardest things that we have to do as parents is kind of hold that solid place of I know that this child loves me, I know that they're going to come to me in their own time, and I'm just going to stay here like a kind of steady anchor ready when they're ready to come to me. I think there's so much that comes up, I mean a huge part of my work is around what comes up for us as adults when we become parents because we might think that we're really psychologically healthy, we might have even done our therapy or you know lots of self development work, and then having a child can raise so much raw emotion Yeah, for it does. And some of those things might be just very natural feelings rejection or feelings of confusion or frustration, you know those are very common experiences that we all have as parents. But when you might also have had difficult relationship patterns previously in your life or experiences in your own childhood, some of those things can come up in a very raw way and that can really start to cloud the way that we then relate to our child.

我们能谈谈

Can we touch a

依恋类型吗？我如何确保与孩子建立安全的依恋关系？

little bit on attachment styles? How can I make sure that I'm building a secure attachment with my child?

我觉得这有点像跳舞。依恋不是发生在孩子身上的事情，而是孩子与生活中其他人之间的一种关系。所以它不能孤立存在，而是通过关系建立的。安全的依恋发生在孩子或婴儿理解到：如果我需要什么，如果我感到不安或想向父母或照顾者展示一些非常快乐的事情，那个人大多数时候都会在那里。当然不需要时时刻刻都在，生活中还有其他事情会干扰，但基本上如果我需要什么，我知道有人会在那里支持我。

So I think of it a bit like a dance. So attachment isn't something that happens to a child, it is a relationship that exists with that child and the other people in its life. So it can't happen in a vacuum, it happens through the relationship. And the secure attachment happens when that child or baby has understood that if I need something, if I have a need or I'm upset or I want to demonstrate something that's really joyful to a parent or a caregiver, that person is going to be there most of the time. It doesn't have to be all the time, obviously there are other things that come in the way of our lives, but more or less if I need something I know that somebody's going to be there for me.

不一定是同一个人，可以是不同的人，但我内心会逐渐形成一种信任：如果我需要什么，别人会支持我。你可以清楚地看到这种信任的发展。比如婴儿会哭，这是他们的信号，我需要别人的帮助。如果这种需求得到满足，就是建立这些纽带的方式。约翰·鲍尔比，依恋理论的创始人之一，他将依恋描述为将人们联系在一起的纽带。

It doesn't have to be the same person, it can be lots of different people, but I have a trust that then kind of develops in me as a person that if I need something, somebody else is going to be there for me. And you can really see that develop. So in babies they will cry, that is their cue, I need something from somebody else. If that need is met, is how those bonds are built. John Bowlby who was this sort of inventor of attachment theory, he talks about attachment as being the bond that ties people together.

在幼儿时期，你确实能看到这种纽带开始变得像橡皮筋一样，它不再仅仅是有人来满足需求，而更多地是你允许那个幼儿或孩子去探索，然后几乎像回弹一样回到你身边

And you really see in the toddler years how that bond starts to become like an elastic band where it becomes less about somebody just coming and meeting a need and more about you also allowing that toddler or child to go off and explore and then almost like boing back to

他们知道自己可以回来，是的。

They know they can come back, yeah.

他们会离开，可能会拉伸得非常非常远，那根橡皮筋延伸，你知道，好几英里。即使到了青少年时期，你知道，他们会越走越远，但他们总会弹回来。

They go and they might stretch really really far and that elastic is going, you know, for miles. And then even when they're teenagers, you know, that's going further and further, but they will always boing back.

哦，那太温馨了。

Oh, that's so sweet.

而你会说不。

And you'll say no.

哦，天哪。

Oh my gosh.

所以，你会在那里接住他们。对于幼儿，你知道就是字面意义上的抱起他们；对于大一点的孩子或青少年，他们会接住你。

So, you're going to then be there to kind of pick them up. And as a toddler, you know literally pick them up, as an older child or a teenager. They pick you

嗯，是的。

up, yes.

就像我在这里。然后还有其他类型的依恋关系，我们以不同方式看待不安全依恋。这通常可以归结为一个焦虑的孩子，他们不一定知道是否会有人在那里支持他们。有时他们可能会非常激动，可能会有孩子表现出强烈的抗议，或者在其他时候他们可能会退缩。所以你会在他们的行为中看到这种不一致性，因为这可能是他们小时候从照顾者那里经历过的。

Like I'm here. And then there are other kinds of attachments, we view insecure attachment in different ways. Often that boils down to a child who is anxious, so doesn't necessarily know whether there's going be somebody there for them or not. Sometimes they might really escalate, there might be a child who really protests a lot, or at other times they might withdraw. So you see that kind of inconsistency in their behavior because that's what they might have experienced as a child themselves from their caregiver.

那么在这个国家最常见的不安全依恋类型是回避型依恋，这些人，或者婴儿或幼儿，会把自己封闭起来。通过皮质醇研究我们发现，这些孩子可能有很高的压力水平，他们的系统中可能仍然有很高的压力，但从外表你永远看不出来，因为他们非常擅长假装一切都好。这就是英国式'坚强不屈'的残余，我们仍然可以在我们的依恋模式中看到。但你问如何建立安全依恋？我认为人们真正需要理解的是，安全依恋是大多数人的状态。

Then which is the kind of most common insecure attachment in this country, we have avoidant attachment and that is people who kind of, or babies or toddlers who will kind of pull it on themselves. So we've seen in research that those children might have high levels of stress through cortisol studies, they might still have high levels of stress in their system, but you would never know it from looking at them because they've got really good at just pretending that everything's okay. So that is the remnants of the British stiff upper lip that we can still see in our attachment patterns. But you asked about how can I build a secure attachment? But I think one of the things that's really important for people to understand is that secure attachment is the vast majority of people.

因此，在全球范围内的研究中，大多数人都具有安全依恋。这是你与孩子整个关系过程中建立的东西。安全依恋是关于满足你孩子的需求。不是做别人说的最好或像我这样的育儿专家说的最好，而是关注你特定的孩子和他们独特的需求，并能够理解他们。就像我说的，大多数时候是这样，当然不是所有时候。

So throughout studies, throughout the globe, the majority of people are securely attached. And it is something that you build throughout your whole relationship with your child. So secure attachment is about meeting your child's needs. It's not about doing what somebody else says is best or what a parenting expert like me says is best, it's about tuning into your particular child and their unique needs and being able to tune in to them. Like I say, most of the time, absolutely not all of the time.

我最近注意到我的小女儿正处于一个问很多问题的阶段。她经常问我，妈妈，你明天早上会叫我起床吗？你明天要去上班吗？你会做这个吗？会做那个吗？

I've noticed really recently with my little girl that she's at the stage where she's asking a lot of questions. Quite often she'll say to me, are you getting me up in the morning, mommy? Are you going to work tomorrow? Are you going to be doing this? Are going to be doing that?

当她问妈妈明天早上会不会叫她起床时，想到我可能不会这样做，即使这样，我觉得她非常信任我，也非常信任我的伴侣，因为我们非常诚实。如果我有几天见不到她，显然我们会用非常孩子友好的方式谈论这件事。我觉得我看到她感到非常安全，她是一个非常安全的小孩，因为我认为我们作为一个家庭非常开放和诚实，对于一个两岁半的孩子来说尽可能做到这样。

When she's asking if mommy's getting her up in the morning, the thought of me then not doing that, even that, I feel like she trusts me, and she trusts my partner so much because we are very honest. If I'm not gonna see her for a few days, then obviously, again, very child friendly way. But we will talk around that, and I do feel like I've seen her. She feels so secure and she's such a secure little kid, because I think we are just very open and honest as a family, as much as you can be with a two and a half year old.

你明白我的意思吗？完全明白。这里有一些关于提供一致性的东西。如果我们想想在建立信任关系时我们在做什么，很大程度上是关于诚实和开放，即使在两岁时也能说，你知道明天早上见不到妈妈，但这是我要去的地方，这是我回来的时间。你知道，在这个年龄，像视觉提示这样的东西会非常有帮助，因为两岁半的孩子不一定有时间概念，但有一个可以标记的日历

Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. Well there's something in there about providing consistency, So if we think about what we're doing when we're kind of promoting a trusting relationship, so much of that is about honesty and openness and even at two being able to say, you know you're not going to see mommy tomorrow morning but this is where I'm going, is when I'm coming back. You know, that age it can be really helpful to have things like visual cues because at two and a half you don't necessarily have much of a concept of time, but having a calendar that you can mark

对自己。这正是我们所做的。

to yourself. Exactly what we do.

或者你可以放一张自己的照片，这样她仍能感受到与你的联系。但关键在于确保这种纽带即使在你不在时也能维系，这是我在思考的问题。你知道，随着孩子成长，他们会内化我们提供的那些持续稳定的关系。所以我经常听到评论说，哦，你的孩子在托儿所，你没法——

Or you can have a photo of you so if she still feels connected to you. But something about being able to ensure that that bond is still there, even when you're actually There is something I think about, you know, as children develop, they internalise those kind of consistent and secure relationships that we've offered them. So I mean I get comments quite a lot saying, oh well your child's in nursery, you're not going

建立那种安全的依恋关系。这种说法有道理吗？

to be able to build that secure attachment. Is there any truth to that?

我认为这是个很好的问题，因为对许多父母来说这确实很困扰——纠结于把孩子留在托儿所或其他付费托育机构是否合适。但这也是大多数在职父母最普遍的体验，他们需要他人代为照看孩子。关于不同托育方式及其对孩子发展的影响已有大量研究，由于显而易见的原因，这些研究存在很大争议且结论往往两极分化。部分研究表明会对儿童产生影响，尤其是行为或长期行为变化方面，而另一些则显示完全没有差异。归根结底，正如我们之前讨论的，关键在于孩子能否在托儿所或其他托育环境中与照料者建立安全的关系。

I think it's a great question because it's something that can be so difficult for so many parents, know grappling with that question of is this okay what I'm doing leaving my child either in nursery or in other paid childcare. But it is also the most common experience for most parents who are working in order to be able to then bring in somebody else to look after their child while they're not around. There's been a lot of different research done on different child care and the impact of that on child development and the research is really controversial for obvious reasons and has often been very split. So some of the research shows that there is an impact on children, so sometimes it looks at behaviour particularly or longer term behavioural changes, and others show that there's absolutely no difference whatsoever. What it seems to boil down to is what we were talking about before is that kind of ability to build a secure relationship or relationships with caregivers at nursery or in other childcare settings.

所以如果你送孩子去托儿所，就像托付给其他家庭成员或朋友时一样，真正需要关注的是：那里是否有他们能够信任、会始终如一陪伴他们的人？这些是我们应该向任何托育者提出的问题。确实，

So if you're sending your child to nursery, just as you would if you were sending them to another family member or to friends, what's really important to look out for is, is there somebody there that they feel that they can trust that is going to consistently show up for them? And these are kind of the questions that we should be asking of anybody. It's true,

这非常重要。她们简直就是我们的共同抚养人。我儿子超级喜欢托儿所的阿姨们，说真的他对她们着迷。知道不一定要全靠我们真好。就像我说的，她们就是我的

it's very And they are literally like our co parents. My son loves the nursery ladies so much, like honestly he's obsessed with them. It's good to know that it doesn't just have to be us. And like I said, they are my village, like we don't have grandparents who live close. The closest grandparents are two hours away and they all work full time.

对很多人来说，现实就是如此——我们不得不寻求外部支持。只要确定孩子是安全的，我们就不该为此感到愧疚。

It's very much the way that the world is for some people is that we just we do have to outsource that support. I don't think we should be made to feel guilty about it as long as we know that our child is safe and

已经掌握了那个

has got that

一个值得信赖的人。

a and trusted person.

没错。而且玩得很开心。我是说，真的非常有趣。那里总是个充满乐趣的地方。

Exactly. And having fun. I mean, like, so much of it is fun. It's always really a fun place.

很多人都在谈论这个，很多专家也提到过要相信那种直觉，作为母亲更是如此，能够感知到

Everyone talks about that like, a lot of the a lot of the experts have talked about having that gut instinct as well as a mother and knowing, like

是啊。

Yeah.

你的孩子是否快乐。我是说，你跟我提过好多次你家小男孩有多开心。

Whether your child's happy. And I mean, you've said to me so many times how happy your little boy is.

天啊，他超爱那里。我看了六家托儿所才选中这家。走进去的瞬间就觉得——就是它了。那是第六家，从我踏进门的那一刻起，我就知道非它莫属。

Oh God, loves it. I went to six nurseries before I picked the And I walked in and was like, new from the second. It was the number six. And I was like, from the second I walked in, that was the one.

我经常觉得，你知道的，托儿所的工作人员确实会成为第二个家庭。尤其是如果你的孩子每周要去五天。他们成为孩子非常熟悉的人，同时也非常了解你的孩子。如果你觉得他们是真心关爱的人，那这一点非常重要。

I think often, you know, people who work in nurseries do become like a second family. They do. Particularly if your child is going there five days a week. They become people that your children know so well and they know your child so intimately too. If you feel like they're somebody who's genuinely caring, that is so important.

需要注意的一点是，当孩子哭着去托儿所或学校时，父母往往会非常担心。我经常建议父母观察孩子放学时的状态。因为分离和重聚时的表现有显著差异，特别是在依恋关系方面。孩子可能哭着进去，表达'我不想和你分开因为我爱你'，这其实是很美好的情感。但如果他们开心地出来，就充分说明他们在那里得到了很好的照顾。

One of the things to look out for is that parents can often really worry when their children are crying if they're going into nursery or school. One of the things I often recommend that parents look for is what they're like when they're coming out. Because there's a real difference, and particularly in attachment, there's a real difference between a separation and reuniting again. Because often a kid might go into nursery or school really upset, letting you know I don't want to say goodbye to you because I love you and that's a really beautiful thing. But then if they come out happy, then that really demonstrates that they feel that they're being well looked after when they're there.

我女儿刚入园时我请了整周假，这样就可以整天坐在停车场守着。

I've booked a whole week off when my little girl starts, so I can just sit in the car park all day.

她不会知道的

She won't know

我在那里，但我会暗中观察。好了不说我了，我们其实有几个快问快答环节，如果没问题的话就开始吧。那么

I'm there, but I will be watching. Anyway, enough about me. We've got a few quick fire round questions actually to go through, if that's okay with let's go. So what

非分娩伴侣在孕期可以通过哪些方式与宝宝建立情感联结？

are some ways the non birthing partner can bond with their baby during pregnancy?

这个问题很棒。建立联结的方式很多，但关键要让你感觉舒适。常见建议包括：如果伴侣怀孕了，可以对着子宫里的宝宝说话；通过书籍或网络了解胎儿当前发育阶段；朗读让宝宝熟悉你的声音——这很有安抚作用。核心在于把宝宝放在心上，我知道这对未怀孕的一方很有挑战，毕竟缺少生理上的直接联系。

That's such a wonderful question. There's many ways that we can bond but it has to feel good for you. So lots of the advice will be if your partner is pregnant, being able to talk to your baby when they're in the womb, being able to read online or in books, what is the developmental stage that your pregnancy is in so you can kind of follow along. You maybe read out loud so the baby can hear your voice and that's a really soothing thing. Essentially it's really about you keeping the baby in your mind and I think that can be really hard when you're not carrying a baby because you don't have that sort of physiological connection.

但实际上，我们从研究和轶事证据中了解到的是，只要你将那个宝宝放在心上、记在脑海里，这就是你们关系的开端，这种关系会在他们出生后继续发展。

But actually what we know from research and from anecdotal evidence is just that as long as you're keeping that baby in your thoughts, in your mind, that's something that is the beginnings of your relationship that then develops when they are in the world.

说得真好。如今我们经常在社交媒体上看到‘安全感’这个词被频繁提及，但对孩子来说，情感上的安全意味着什么？

Love that. So we see the term safety as a buzzword on social media as well a lot these days, but what does it mean for children to be emotionally safe?

我认为我们其实还是在讨论安全感，也就是安全依恋。‘安全感’作为流行词非常重要，在创伤背景下讨论它既有帮助又必要。这个概念近年来突然抓住了公众的想象力，尤其是在新冠之后。我们必须思考如何为孩子和社区中的其他人营造情感安全。

I mean really we're talking about security again, so we're talking about secure attachment. I mean safety as a buzzword I think is a really important one. I think it's helpful and important that we're talking about safety in the context of trauma. That's something that I think has been suddenly caught the public imagination in the last few years, particularly post Covid. I think it's important that we consider how we create emotional safety for our children and other people in our community.

但这也可能让父母焦虑自己是否做得足够，孩子是否感到足够安全。因此需要区分什么是安全感——即与某人建立的可靠关系，知道对方始终会在你身边——与正常的情绪表达和普通的苦恼表现。

But I think it can also create some anxiety for parents about whether they're doing enough, whether their children feel safe enough. So it's important to separate out what is security, which again is just that trusted relationship with somebody, knowing that somebody's consistently going to be there for you, versus you know actual just normal emotions and normal expressions of distress.

可能有单亲或共同抚养的父母在听，他们担心离婚影响了孩子的安全依恋。您会给他们什么建议？

And we might have single parents or co parents listening who are worried that their separation has caused disruption in their child's secure attachment. What advice would you give them?

安全依恋可以同时与父母双方建立。即使分开，孩子也会分别并与你们共同保持依恋关系。分居期间，我们需要考虑如何向孩子描述另一方父母。对孩子来说最困难的是，当他们知道父母存在矛盾却又确实与另一方有安全依恋时，会产生背叛感。因此最重要的是避免让孩子卷入冲突，让他们能够维持与父母双方的安全关系。

Again, so secure attachment can develop with both parents. So even when you're separated, there will be an attachment relationship that exists with both of you separately and together. I think some of the things that we can do when we're separated or separating is think about how we're communicating to our child about the other parent. So one of the hardest things for children is feeling disloyal if they know that there's been conflict there, but actually they do have a secure attachment with the other parent. So being able to hold in mind that actually one of the most important things is just to be able to not share that conflict with your children, to enable them to continue with those secure relationships that hopefully they have with both parents.

必须强调的是，许多离婚父母可能刚脱离虐待关系。对于处于这种情况的听众，他们在建立安全感时会面临特殊挑战——他们可能觉得自己必须成为孩子的保护盾。这实际上是个至关重要的角色：既要与孩子建立关系，又要保护他们远离潜在危险者。是的，这绝非易事。

It's important to say too that lots of parents when they're separating might be coming out of abusive relationships, so for anybody who's listening where that's the context that they're in, Often there can be a real difference in their sort of creation of security where they might feel that they have to be a buffer to their child. And actually that's a really important role to advocate for your child, to be a buffer to your child. And you know I just really want to acknowledge that that creates a different sort of security that you're not only building that relationship with them but you're also protecting them from people who are not necessarily safe for them. So yeah, it's a hard job to do.

说实话，这次对话非常棒，它确实让我对我们正在做的事情更有信心了。作为一个职场妈妈，难免会感到内疚，而且网上听到的很多建议并非来自像您这样的专家。所以无论如何，感谢您让我感觉好受些。我相信我们的来电听众也会因为知道自己并不孤单、这种情况完全正常而感到宽慰。

Honestly, conversation has been amazing and I think it's certainly made me feel a lot more confident in what we're doing because you know as a working mother it can be hard to not feel guilty and you're listening to things online from people who aren't experts like yourself. So thank you for making me feel a little bit better anyway. I'm sure our caller as well felt so much better just knowing that she wasn't alone as well and that it's completely normal.

是啊，这太常见了。

Yeah, such a common experience.

非常感谢您，Emma医生。

Thank you so much, Doctor Emma.

感谢您收听并致电

Thank you for listening along and calling in to

育儿求助热线，我是Holly Hagen Blyth。我是Charlie Hedges。如果您需要育儿建议，请通过Whatsapp发送问题至336783378，您的问题可能会出现在未来的节目中。想获取本期播客讨论话题的更多信息和建议，请访问CBB网站。

the Parenting Helpline with me Holly Hagen Blyth. And me Charlie Hedges. If you need some parenting advice please do text us your question to Whatsapp. The number is 336783378 and you could feature in a future episode. For more information and advice on the topics covered in this podcast please visit the CBB's website.

您将在那里找到大量建议和更易操作的育儿技巧。如果想收听更多内容，《育儿求助热线》所有集数现已在BBC Sounds上线。CBeebies育儿求助热线由CBeebies育儿频道呈现，主持人是Charlie Hedges和Holly Hagen Blythe。本系列是由CBBs出品的'咬住舌头'制作。

There you'll find lots of advice and more easy to use parenting tips. And if you want more of this podcast all episodes of Parenting Help Helpline are available now on BBC Sounds. CBeebies Parenting Helpline is brought to you by CBeebies Parenting presented by me, Charlie Hedges. And me, Holly Hagen Blythe. This series is a bite your tongue production for CBBs.

制作人是Palama Kaufman，执行制作人是Kelly Winterbergen。BBC方面的执行制作人是Kyle Rice，系列制作人是Tess Foster。CBB高级执行人是Jo McCulloch。

The producer is Palama Kaufman and the exec producer is Kelly Winterbergen. For the BBC, the exec producer is Kyle Rice and the series producer is Tess Foster. And the CBB senior exec is Jo McCulloch.

埃里克·布雷负责剪辑我们的节目，音效设计则由本·休斯完成。

Eric Brea edits our episodes and the sound design is by Ben Hughes.