心态如何塑造成功

洛杉矶纪念体育场的这个夜晚真是艰难。旧金山49人队以12比6惜败于突袭者队，这是一场防守激烈的硬仗。

What a tough night here in the Los Angeles Coliseum. The San Francisco 49ers fall to the Raiders twelve six in a hard fought defensive

对于史蒂夫·杨来说，关键时刻的两次拦截。看起来我们正处于

for Steve Young. Two interceptions at critical moments. Looks like we are

1991年，史蒂夫·杨成为旧金山49人队新任全职首发四分卫。他多年担任明星球员乔·蒙塔纳的替补。现在本应是他大放异彩的时刻，但情况并不顺利。

Steve Young was the new full time starting quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers in 1991. He'd spent years backing up star player Joe Montana. Now it was supposed to be his time to shine, but it wasn't going well.

史蒂夫·杨在达阵线掉球，导致回阵并让电视机前的观众

Steve Young drops the ball at the goal line, resulting in a touchback and taking a TV off the

球掉了。对史蒂夫来说这是多么糟糕的一天。他后来描述这一刻的感受是他人生中的最低谷。掉球。他失误了。那场与突袭者队的比赛后，他带着受伤的自尊和可能已达极限的感觉离开了这座城市。

And drops the football. What a terrible day for Steve He'd later describe how he was feeling in this moment as the lowest of his life. Fumble. He fumbles. He got out of town after that game with the Raiders, leaving with a bruised ego and a sense that maybe he'd hit his limit.

返程航班上，杨恰巧坐在《高效能人士的七个习惯》作者史蒂芬·柯维身旁。他向柯维倾吐了挫败感，柯维听完后问道：'你想知道自己能变得多优秀吗？'柯维阐释了他的观点——只要改变心态，杨就能凭借传奇教练和名人堂导师的指导，发掘自己真正的潜力。杨意识到自己一直在扮演受害者，抱怨环境、与他人比较，并认为自己已达极限。柯维的话点醒了他。他以全新目标回归训练，专注于自身成长发展的可能性。

On his return flight, Young found himself sitting next to Stephen Covey, author of The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. He poured out his frustrations to Covey, who listened and then asked, Do you want to see how good you can get? Covey explained his perspective, that Young had an incredible opportunity, along with his legendary coach and a Hall of Fame mentor, to discover his true potential if he changed his mindset. Young realized he had been playing the victim, Blaming circumstances and comparing himself to others, and feeling like he had reached his limit, Covey's words snapped him out of it. He returned to practice with renewed purpose, focusing on his own potential for growth and development.

次年，杨首次获得MVP称号。杨传球给弗洛伊德，达阵！这只是众多精彩表现之一。他最终带领旧金山49人队赢得1995年超级碗冠军，并为自己锁定了橄榄球名人堂席位。

The next season, Young earned his first MVP award. Young to Floyd. Touchdown. One of many. He went on to lead the San Francisco 49ers to their nineteen ninety five Super Bowl win, and he secured a spot for himself in the Football Hall of Fame.

史蒂夫·杨身上没有任何虚假之处，无论从哪个角度看都没有。看到他拥有这一切真是令人愉快。

There's nothing phony at all about Steve Young in any way, shape, or form. It's a delight to see him have this.

史蒂夫·杨是一位以重新定义四分卫可能性而闻名的球员。这一切都源于某天他决定转变自己的视角。在本期节目中，我们将探讨那些关于自身能力的故事叙述，以及如何创造条件，将失望转化为成长与进步的起点。我是凯蒂·米尔克曼博士，这里是《选择学》，查尔斯·施瓦布原创播客，一档关于决策背后的心理学与经济学的节目。

Steve Young is a player known for redefining what a quarterback could be. All because one day, he decided to shift his outlook. In this episode, we'll look at the stories we tell ourselves about our abilities and how to create conditions that allow us to turn disappointments into the starting lines for growth and improvement. I'm doctor Katie Milkman, and this is Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. It's a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions.

我们为您带来关于高风险选择的真实而令人惊讶的故事，然后剖析这些故事如何与行为科学的最新研究相联系。这一切都是为了帮助您做出更好判断，避免代价高昂的错误。

We bring you true and surprising stories about high stakes choices, and then we examine how these stories connect to the latest research and behavioral science. We do it all to help you make better judgments and avoid costly mistakes.

有位八旬老人在学习古希腊语，无家可归的男子开始弹吉他，还有位女士四十多岁学会了轮滑德比。想接受采访的人简直让我应接不暇，这非常不可思议。

There was an octogenarian who was learning ancient Greek. There was a homeless man who'd taken up the guitar. A lady who'd learned to roller derby in her forties. I was absolutely inundated with people who wanted to be interviewed. It was quite amazing.

大家好，我是唐娜·弗格森，获奖自由记者，主要为《卫报》和《观察家报》撰稿。

Hi. I'm Donna Ferguson. I'm an award winning freelance journalist mainly for The Guardian and The Observer.

唐娜去年发出征集故事邀约后，收到了形形色色人群的回应，这些故事将被纳入她正在创作的新文章中。这个专题的灵感来自水中。

Donna heard from an eclectic range of people last year after putting out a call for stories to go in a new piece she was working on. The idea for this feature came to her in the water.

当时我正在剑桥当地泳池参加水中有氧课程，同一时段还有成人游泳教学班在上课。

I was going to an aqua aerobics class at my local pool in Cambridge. At the same time that this class was on, there was a class for teaching adults to swim.

在英格兰，大多数孩子在学校里学习游泳。他们也可能在校外上课。但一般来说，学游泳是小时候做的事情。

In England, most children are taught to swim at school. They also might have lessons outside of school. But generally, learning to swim is something you do as a kid.

所以看到成年人学游泳是相当不寻常的。而剑桥的情况是，它吸引了来自世界各地的许多人来这里学习。于是我开始想，也许这些成年人只是没有机会学习游泳。作为一个成年人，在公共场合跳进游泳池，不会游泳，知道游泳池里大多数人都会游泳，这需要多大的勇气和决心，我开始觉得，每周都有这么多人前来学习，真是让我印象深刻。

So it is quite unusual to see people learning to swim as adults. And the thing about Cambridge is it attracts a lot of people from lots of different parts of the world to come and study here. And so I started to think maybe these were adults who just hadn't had a chance to learn to swim. And the kind of courage and determination that it takes to throw yourself into a pool as an adult in public, not knowing how to swim, knowing that, you know, most of the people in that pool can swim, I started to think, well, I'm just so impressed that so many people every week were coming and learning.

这让唐娜开始思考，人们在童年和更结构化的学校教育之后，还会选择学习哪些其他技能或能力。其中一些技能，如游泳或学习一门新语言，可能是必不可少的。其他的，比如学习轮滑，可能只是为了好玩。但到了成年，学习的感觉往往与小时候不同，那时上课和获取新知识是常态。为了讲述关于我们晚年学习的故事，唐娜询问了她认识的每一个人。

It got Donna thinking about what kinds of other skills or abilities people choose to learn after childhood and after their more structured years of education in school. Some of those skills like swimming or learning a new language can be essential. Others, picking up rollerblading, might just be for fun. But by adulthood, learning often feels different than it did as a kid when taking classes and developing new knowledge was the norm. To craft her story about what learning looks like in our later years, Donna asked everyone she knew.

她在社交媒体和各种群聊中发出呼吁，寻找那些在许多人认为为时已晚的时候，仍然努力扩展自己智力或才能的人的故事。

She put calls out on social media, in various group chats, looking for stories of people who went out of their way to expand their intelligence or talents at moments when many might think it was too late to learn or grow.

于是艾伦联系了她，说他在六十岁那年住院了一个月。

So Alan got in touch to say that he'd been hospitalized for a month in his sixtieth year.

是的。癌症这件事相当麻烦。我叫艾伦，艾伦·艾克罗伊德。我在英国剑桥。我完全不知道自己得了癌症，直到有一天，我突然感到剧烈的腹痛。

Yes. The the cancer thing was quite a business. My name's Alan, Alan Aykroyd. I'm in Cambridge, UK. I had no idea that I had cancer, until one day, I suddenly found myself in tremendous abdominal pain.

我以前从未经历过这样的事情。他们怀疑我得了阑尾炎，于是把我送进了医院。长话短说，结果不是阑尾炎，是癌症。

I've never known anything like it before. They admitted me to hospital on the basis that they suspected that I'd got, some appendix trouble. And, well, to cut a long story short, it wasn't the appendix. It was cancer.

在医院度过的一个月手术和化疗时光，让艾伦有时间思考余生想做什么。多年来，他将全部心血倾注于面包店事业。这份工作有时要求苛刻、令人疲惫，但也是他的快乐、技艺和生计。若失去它，他还能做什么？

A month in the hospital for surgery and chemotherapy gave Alan time to consider what he wanted to do with the rest of his life. For years, he'd poured himself into his bakery. It was demanding and exhausting at times, but it was also his joy, his craft, his livelihood. In its absence, what else would he do?

我开始回想过去喜爱的事物，以及未来可能尝试的方向。这时音乐这个话题浮现出来。我想，为什么不试试看呢？

I started to think about the things that I'd enjoyed in the past and the things that I might do with myself. And this whole business about music came up. And I thought, well, why don't I give it a try?

艾伦在充满音乐的家庭中长大。父母总爱收听广播里的古典音乐频道。尽管他勉强接受他们的品味

Alan grew up in a house filled with music. His parents loved to listen to the classical channel on the radio. And while he tolerated their tastes

当我开始自主聆听音乐，零零散散买些唱片时，发现了一些民谣音乐录音。这种对英国传统民谣的热爱与兴趣，我一直保持着。

When I began to be listening to music for myself and buying a record or two here and there, I found some recordings of folk music, and I'd maintained this sort of interest and love for this traditional British folk music.

虽然热爱聆听，艾伦从不认为自己能演奏乐器。他唯一接触乐器的经历是学生时代吹竖笛。

While he loved to listen, Alan never considered himself a player. His one experience with an instrument was at school with the recorder.

就我而言那是段糟糕的经历。我完全不得要领，学习进度缓慢，很快就放弃了。

It was an unfortunate experience as far as I was concerned. I couldn't really get anywhere with it. I was a bit of a slow learner. And, I left that behind very quickly.

除了持续聆听英国民谣的兴趣，以及孩子上学时重新拾起的竖笛，音乐并非他投入大量时间的领域。但住院的一个月给了他反思的时间和动力——是否仅因自认不擅长，就放弃了曾带来快乐的事物？

Music wasn't something he spent much time on beyond his continued interest in listening to British folk music and actually picking up the recorder again when his kids were in school. But being in the hospital for a month gave him time and motivation to reflect. Had he given up on something that brought him joy just because he believed he wasn't any good?

于是在我出院那天，在网上做了一些研究后，我下单订购了一台六角手风琴。

And so on the day that I came out of hospital, having been doing a bit of research on the net, I did it, and I, ordered a concertina.

艾伦自学了六角手风琴——如果你不熟悉的话，它本质上是一种小型手风琴。他通过书籍和互联网学习。他曾一度认为自己根本不该碰乐器。如今他每天都演奏。

Alan taught himself a concertina, which if you aren't familiar, is essentially a small accordion. He learned from books and the Internet. He'd once thought he had no business playing an instrument at all. Now he plays every day.

我有了一件能做的事情，并且正在不断进步，这给了我价值感。我知道还有很多需要学习的东西，只要我的手指还能动，我想我会继续演奏下去。

I've got something that I can do and that I'm getting better at doing, and it gives me a sense of worth. I've got so many things that I know that I need to learn, and I think as long as my fingers can do it, I think I'll be continuing to play.

有时你脑海中会有个声音说：你做不到的。小时候没成功，现在也不可能成功。但听到那些无视这种声音的人的故事，真的让我深受鼓舞。

There is sometimes a voice in your head that's saying, well, you can't do this. You didn't manage as a child, so you're not gonna manage now. But, yeah, talking to people who ignored that voice was just really inspiring for me.

唐娜采访的另一些人不仅要克服模糊的自我怀疑，他们还在与持续数年甚至数十年的、深信自己无法进步的信念作斗争。

Some other people that Donna spoke with weren't just overcoming a vague sense of self doubt. They were grappling with years, even decades of truly believing they couldn't improve in a given area.

八岁时我看着其他人在纸上涂涂画画，自己却东张西望想着：我该做什么？我该写什么？我叫史蒂菲，住在英国莱斯特郡。

When I was eight, watching everybody else, you know, scribble away on a piece of paper, and and you're just looking around going, what am I supposed to be doing? Or what am I supposed to be writing? My name is Steffi, and I live in The UK in Leicestershire.

史蒂菲最早的校园记忆之一，就是坐在教室里看着其他人都像是听懂了指令，唯独她茫然不解。

Some of Steffi's earliest memories at school involve sitting in a class where everyone seemed to understand the direction but her.

我尽可能地把名字写得最好，但我的字迹实在太糟糕了。实际上我会练习书写，让它看起来完美，这样人们就不会注意到我不会读写。

I could write my name as probably as as best as I could, but my handwriting was so bad. I actually would practice my handwriting to make it perfect so people wouldn't actually notice that I couldn't read or write.

Stefi努力隐藏自己的困境，掩饰它们，融入群体。所以如果

Stefi worked hard to hide her struggles, to mask them, to blend in. So if

你在其他孩子面前表现出任何弱点，他们往往会因此取笑你。

you show any, like, sort of weakness around other kids, they tend to kinda pick on you for that.

老师们会告诉她她很懒，没有尽力。所以她发展出策略，避免引起任何额外的注意。

Teachers would tell her she was lazy and that she wasn't trying hard enough. So she developed strategies to avoid bringing any extra attention to herself.

我过去常常抄袭旁边的人。从不真正向任何人求助，因为如果我向朋友求助，我就会知道自己不会读写。

I used to copy anyone that was next to me. Never really asked anyone for help because then if I asked a friend, then I'd know that I couldn't read or write.

Stefi直到11岁才被诊断出患有阅读障碍。虽然诊断意味着她在课堂上得到了一些帮助，但她的学习水平与同龄人之间的差距很难弥补。

Stefi was 11 before she was diagnosed with dyslexia. And while the diagnosis did mean she received some help in class, the difference between her learning level and that of her peers was hard to overcome.

我落后太多了。我是说，11岁，这真的很晚了。我有那么多年的功课要补。到了某个阶段，我的阅读能力基本上就那样了。我只能读三个字母的单词。

I was so far behind. I mean, 11, that's really late. So I had so many years to catch up on. I got to a point where reading was basically as good as it's gonna get. I could only read like three letter words.

除此之外的任何事，我都会感到非常吃力。是的，我只能接受这就是我能达到的最好状态了，我不可能再有更多进步。所以我大半生都在走捷径，试图在不识字的情况下找到度过人生的方法。

Anything more than that, I would really struggled with. Yeah. I just accepted this is is as good as it's gonna get for me. I'm not going to get any further than that. So spent most of my life cutting corners and trying to find ways to get through life with not being able to read.

直到有一天，一个爱她的人质疑了她所接受的所谓极限。

Until one day, someone who loved her challenged what she had accepted as her limit.

我丈夫看到一则广告，说有个关于杰伊·布莱兹在50岁学习识字的节目。

My husband saw an ad that there was a program on about Jay Blades learning how to read at the age of 50.

杰伊·布莱兹是位家具修复师，因主持BBC系列节目《修理店》而闻名。

Jay Blades is a furniture restorer known for hosting the BBC series, The Repair Shop.

当时我们看这个节目时我正怀孕。当看到杰伊无法给女儿读故事的情节时，这深深刺痛了我——因为我意识到自己也将面临同样处境。我可能无法给我的女儿读书。节目还没播完，我丈夫就已经在给ReadEasy发邮件安排见面会了。

I was pregnant at the time when we watched it. It was when it got to the point where he couldn't read to his daughter, and that was something that really struck a nerve with me because I thought, I'm gonna be in the same boat. I'm not gonna be able to read to my daughter. And as we're watching it, my husband, even before the program had even finished, he was already emailing ReadEasy to organize a little meetup.

两周后，史蒂菲接到了ReadEasy慈善机构的电话，该机构专门教授成人识字。他们通过电话评估她的资格，随后为她匹配了一位辅导老师。

Two weeks later, Steffi got a call from ReadEasy, a charity that teaches adults to read. They called to get a sense of her eligibility, and then they matched her with a coach.

我对见面这件事非常忐忑，紧张得几乎想爽约。但我丈夫说：'去吧，就当聊聊天。如果觉得不合适，你完全可以拒绝。但至少你能说自己尝试过，和他们交流过了。'

I was very unsure about meeting them. I got very nervous and was about to not show up and meet these people. But my husband said, look, just go speak to them. And if there's something you don't like, then you don't have to do it. But at least you can say that you've tried and you've had a chat with them.

那次会议改变了一切。

That meeting changed everything.

回来后我对丈夫说，你知道吗？我要把这五本书从头到尾全部学完。他说，我知道你会的。我相信你能做到。你会表现得非常出色。

I came back and said to my husband, you know what? I'm gonna do all five of these books from start to finish. And he said, I know you will. I know you can do this. You're gonna be brilliant.

对Steffy而言，这次识字经历截然不同。不再是为了融入群体，而是完全为了女儿——无论付出多少努力都要为她进步。她从未想过自己的阅读能力能提升，也没料到成年后还能持续学习，但她以开放心态拥抱了这个机会。

Learning to read this time was different for Steffy. It wasn't about fitting in. It was all about her daughter and wanting to improve for her no matter the effort. She'd never thought her reading could progress or that she could keep learning as an adult, but she leaned into this opportunity with an open mind.

这对我而言是惊人的成就。原本我极度自卑，识字能力却让我重获信心。本质上，我活成了这些年来一直假装成为的那个自己。

It's been quite an amazing achievement for myself. I have such low self esteem as well, and to be able to read has built such a confidence in me. I basically became the person I was pretending to be for all these years.

当Donna开始收集这些成长励志故事时，她只想写篇帮助他人的文章。没想到这些故事反而深深激励了她自己。

When Donna started collecting these inspiring stories of growth, her goal was to write an article that would help other people. What she didn't anticipate was how much these stories would inspire her.

我有点完美主义倾向，一直很清楚这点。我真心想成为不惧犯错的人。在访谈过这么多人后，这确实成为我在生活中更努力调整的方向。

I am a bit of a perfectionist. I've always known that, and I really want to be somebody who isn't scared to make mistakes. And I think that after talking to so many people, that is definitely something that I've sort of tried to address a bit more in my own life.

通过采访众多关于人们在校园外和成年后习得技能的故事，Dahna意识到她要挑战自我，在那些曾自认不擅长的领域取得进步。

Interviewing so many people about the skills they'd picked up outside of school and in adulthood, Dahna realized she wanted to challenge herself to improve in areas she'd once accepted weren't her strengths.

我向来不擅长园艺。小时候没学过，也从未对此感兴趣。但这个夏天，我出门买了许多植物，自己动手全部种下，它们至今都还活着。这感觉棒极了。

I've never had green fingers. I didn't ever learn gardening as a child. It's not something I was ever into. But this summer, you know, I went out, I bought loads of plants, and I just planted them all myself, and they're still alive. So and that was wonderful.

唐娜也接受了新挑战。她报名教授青少年新闻学课程，同时为《卫报》的国际新闻部和国内新闻部撰稿。

Donna also took on a new challenge. She signed up to teach journalism to teenagers, and she's writing for the International News Desk as well as the National News Desk for The Guardian.

感觉这为我的生活打开了各种可能性。我可以怀着信念纵身一跃，想着'试试看吧'，就算做不到完美，也能不断学习精进这项技能。聆听过来人的经历特别鼓舞人心——这些故事听得越多，追随他们的脚步就越容易。这确实改变了我的生活。

I feel like it's kind of opened up my life into lots of different things. Like, I can take a leap of faith and just think, well, I'll try it, and I'll hopefully, if I don't do it perfectly, I'll learn more and more and develop that skill. It's really inspiring talking to people who have done this. The more that you hear these stories, the easier it is to follow in their footsteps. It's been really life changing actually for me.

有种解放身心般的自由感。

It's been kind of liberating and freeing.

唐娜·弗格森是《卫报》和《观察家报》的自由记者。您可以在节目说明和schwab.com/choiceology找到她关于成年人晚年重大转变的报道链接。很多人从小相信自己在某些领域有天赋，在其他领域则不然。或许你觉得自己天生擅长运动或表演，或许你认为自己生来就有音乐细胞——或者没有。

Donna Ferguson is a freelance journalist with The Guardian and The Observer. You can find a link to her story about adults making big changes later in life in the show notes and at schwab.com/choiceology. A lot of us grow up believing that we have innate talents in some areas and a lack of talent in others. Maybe you felt that you were a natural athlete or performer. Maybe you felt that you were born musical or that you weren't.

但给自己贴这些标签会形成束缚。事实上，虽然基因确实重要，但几乎每项技能都能通过刻意练习获得巨大提升——只要我们意识到这点并愿意投入时间。发现成长机遇不仅能改变个人成就，更会影响你管理、养育、指导以及合作的每一个人。

But applying these labels to ourselves can be limiting. In truth, while our genes do matter, it's also true that nearly every skill and ability can be improved massively with deliberate practice. If only we recognize that and are willing to put in the time. And recognizing opportunities for growth isn't just a way to change your own achievement. It can matter for the people you manage, parent, coach, and collaborate with on just about anything.

下一位嘉宾研究思维模式如何塑造我们及周围人的成长轨迹。玛丽·墨菲是印第安纳大学心理与脑科学教授，从事动机、表现及成长型与固定型思维模式差异的开创性研究，她还是优秀著作《成长型文化》的作者。

My next guest researches how our mindsets can shape our trajectories for growth and achievement, as well as the mindsets and trajectories of those around us. Mary Murphy is a professor of psychological and brain sciences at Indiana University, where she conducts pioneering research on motivation, performance, and the distinction between growth and fixed mindsets. She's also the author of the excellent book Cultures of Growth.

嗨，玛丽。非常感谢你今天能来参加。

Hi, Mary. Thank you so much for joining me today.

嗨，凯蒂。能来这里真是我的荣幸。

Hi, Katie. It's such a pleasure to be here.

我真的很期待和你讨论成长型思维，其实我希望你能为我们解释一些理解这一主题至关重要的术语。我想请你解释一下，对某件事持有成长型思维与固定型思维分别意味着什么。

Well, I'm really excited to talk to you about growth mindset and was actually just hoping you could give us an explainer on some terms that are really important to understanding this topic. I was hoping you could explain what it means to have a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset about something.

固定型思维认为，诸如天赋、智力、能力甚至我们的性格都是相对固定的。你无法改变太多，要么拥有要么没有。你会听到人们说'我就是不擅长数学'之类的话，对吧？

So a belief that things like talent, intelligence, ability, even our personality, they're relatively fixed. You can't change them very much. You either have it or you don't. And you hear people say things like, I'm just not a math person. Right?

这就是固定型思维在起作用。它常与成长型思维形成对比，后者认为天赋、智力、能力和性格是我们所有人都具备的潜能。无论我们当前的天赋、智力和能力水平如何，信念是我们总能进步，总能超越当下的自己不断成长发展。

That's the fixed mindset in action. And it's often contrasted with the growth mindset, which holds that talent, intelligence, ability, personality. These are potentials that exist within all of us. And regardless of the amount or where we are on sort of our levels of talent and intelligence and ability, the belief is that we can always improve. We can always grow and develop beyond where we currently are in the moment.

我们通过有效努力、遇到困难时寻求帮助以及采用有效策略等方式来实现这种成长。

And we do that through things like effective effort, seeking help when we're stuck, and pursuing effective strategies.

这个定义非常清晰地阐明了我们在思考自身能力时可能处于的两种思维模式。我想问，如果我处于成长型思维这一端，这种思维是否适用于我生活的方方面面——从智力能力到运动天赋再到财务智慧？还是说我可以在某些领域持成长型思维，在其他方面却保持固定型思维？

That was an amazingly clear definition of these two different ends of the spectrum we can fall on in terms of how we think about our capacity. I wanna ask if I'm on the growth mindset end of the continuum, say, would that mindset apply to everything in my life from, say, how capable I am intellectually to my athletic ability to my financial savvy? Or could I have a growth mindset about my capacity in some areas and a fixed mindset in others?

是的。我在演讲和书中经常谈到这一点。我常提到心态是一个光谱，我们会因各种因素在固定型与成长型心态间切换。比如在不同领域——我可能对金钱持有极强的成长心态，愿意学习理财知识、改善财务状况；但对音乐却抱持着顽固的固定型心态。

Yeah. Well, this is one of the things I talk about this a lot when I speak to audiences and also in the book. I talk a lot about how, you know, mindset is a spectrum, and we move between our fixed and growth mindset based on a lot of different things. It can be different domains like you're talking about, so I can have a very growth mindset about my money, how I can learn about money, how to improve my financial outlook, you know, those sorts of things. But I might have a very fixed mindset about music.

对吧？要么有音乐天赋，要么就没有。我们能在不同生活领域处于心态光谱的两端，甚至在同一情境下也会游移。比如工作时，面对批评反馈我可能陷入固定心态，觉得这是人身攻击；但看到同事成功时，我又会深受启发，想学习对方的成功策略。

Right? I'm either musical or I'm not musical. And so you can have be on different sides of the spectrum with regard to different domains, different kinds of areas of our life, but you can also be on the spectrum somewhere along the line, even in the same context. So if I'm at work, I can have a very fixed mindset when it comes to critical feedback, where I just feel like it's a personal attack. It's about me.

我们始终在心态连续体上移动。人们对心态最大的误解，就是 ironically（讽刺地）用固定型思维看待心态本身——非此即彼地划分固定型与成长型。这种二元论反而限制了我们的可能性，让人产生'这不适合我'的抗拒心理。

But when I see others really succeeding in the workplace, I might feel really inspired and I might be like, wow, what is she doing so well? I'm gonna learn, you know, what strategy she's using so that I too can have some success in this context. And so, you know, we're always moving along that mindset continuum to our fixed and growth mindset. I think one of the things we get wrong about mindset is we tend to think kind of ironically in some ways that there's either the fixed or the growth mindset, which is a very fixed way of thinking about the fixed mindset, I think that gets us sometimes challenged. It gets us, thinking, oh, that's just not for me.

能否谈谈你最青睐的研究案例？哪些实验数据能证明成长型心态比固定型心态带来更优的结果？科学如何论证向成长型心态靠拢的益处？

Could you talk a little bit about your favorite study or set of studies that show differences in the outcomes that people achieve if they adopt a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset? What does the science say about the benefits of moving on this continuum towards the growth mindset?

当然。首先要致敬心态理论之母卡罗尔·德韦克，她在70年代末80年代初提出该理论。经典研究显示：人们常误以为心态只关乎表现力，其实它本质是动机理论。那些轰动性研究证明，成长型心态确实能提升学业等领域的表现，但核心在于——它首先改变的是我们的动机水平。

Yeah. Well, I always like to pay homage to the mother of mindset, Carol Dweck, who first came up with this idea, you know, in the late nineteen seventies, early nineteen eighties. And some of those classic studies, one of the things I think that people misunderstand about mindset is that it's not just about performance. I think a lot of the high impact studies that have really made a lot of news is that when you have more of a growth mindset, you sometimes see benefits on performance, whether that be achievement in school or performance measured in other ways. And what mindset always was, was a theory of motivation.

当我相信自己能够进步时，就会产生更强的行动动机：主动学习新策略、寻求自我提升。这种内在驱动力促使我们真正付诸实践去成长改变。

So when we say, how does the fixed and growth mindset influence us? It first influences us through our levels of motivation. So if I believe that I can get better, I can change, I can improve. What happens is I become more motivated to take steps to improve, to actually learn, to actually grow and change. And so I adopt new strategies.

遇到困境时我会主动求助，将挑战视为学习机会并坚持突破——因为我相信这些障碍终将成为进步的阶梯。

I when I get stuck, I ask for help. I persist through challenges because I feel like these challenges are gonna be learning opportunities.

玛丽，我记得没错的话，早期关于成长型思维与固定型思维的研究，大部分甚至可能是主要部分，是通过问卷调查工具来了解人们在这个连续谱上的位置，但早期大多是相关性研究。这个总结准确吗？

And, Mary, am I remembering correctly that most of the early work and actually maybe the majority of the work on growth mindset versus fixed mindset is sort of using survey instruments to ask people about where they fall on this continuum, but they're mostly correlational studies in the early days. Is that an accurate summary of the early work?

我认为早期研究可分为两类。一类正如你所描述的，我们测量人们在思维连续谱上的长期倾向——你在职场或学习环境中通常处于什么位置？然后观察其与动机、表现等因素的相关性。这些确实是相关性研究，但即便在最早针对儿童、初中生和大学生的研究中，我们也看到了一些实验性工作：研究者让学生（后来也包括成人）阅读描述智力与能力固定性或可塑性的科学文章。

I would say that the early work is kind of it falls into two camps. One is exactly as you described, where we're measuring people's kind of chronic level along the mindset continuum. Where do you chronically hang out with in regards to the workplace or in regards to school or learning? And then you would look at the correlates of that regarding motivation or performance or that sort of thing. And so those are definitely correlational studies, but even some of the earliest studies with children and with middle school children with, college age students, we saw some experimental work where the researchers would have students and later adults read these scientific passages that would describe either the fixed nature of intelligence and ability or the malleable nature of it.

这些文章实际上能推动人们在思维连续谱上向更固定或更成长的方向移动。这是最早证明我们会被环境中的情境线索影响的证据之一，对吧？如果我读到'科学证明智力与能力具有某特性'，我就会接受这个观点。之后我的反应就会通过被激活的思维模式透镜呈现——这说明每个人都能根据环境中的即时线索激活固定型或成长型思维。

And it would actually move people along the mindset continuum to either more fixed or more growth. And that really is some of the earliest evidence that shows that we can be moved by these situational cues in our environment, right? If we read a passage, science says this thing about intelligence and ability, I tend to take it on. And then I'm responding through that lens of mindset that's been activated for me, which tells you that everyone can activate that fixed mindset or that growth mindset depending on those local cues in our environment.

玛丽，如果我想培养更多成长型思维，既然现在理解了科学原理，你觉得我该怎么做才能最大化获益？

So Mary, if I want to adopt more of a growth mindset, what would you say I should do differently in order to maximize the benefits I can get now that I understand the science?

我认为首先要'认识你自己'。我们发现有四种思维模式触发因素，在不同文化背景、性别背景及各种个体差异变量中，都能稳定地推动人们转向固定或成长型思维。首先是评估情境——当我预感到要被他人评价时，比如准备演讲、工作报告或提出新想法时，我会预判他人对我表现的看法。

Well, I think we have to start with the know thyself. So we have four mindset triggers that kind of consistently we find across cultural context, across gender context, across many, different individual difference variables actually move people to their fixed or growth mindset. And those are evaluative situations where I anticipate being evaluated by other people. So I might be preparing a talk or a presentation or introducing a new idea at work. And I'm anticipating how other people are going to view that by presentation, what I say, what I do.

对很多人来说，这是他们的固定型思维触发点。他们会觉得必须以完美状态应对，不愿展现任何关于这些想法的挣扎，甚至可能在演讲后不留问答时间，因为害怕被挑战。所以评估情境就是某些人的固定型思维触发器。

For a lot of people, that's one of their fixed mindset triggers. And they feel like they have to approach and handle these with like perfection. And so they don't want to show any challenges that they've had around these ideas. They might not leave any time for questions and answers at the end of a talk because they don't want really people to challenge, themselves. So is evaluative situations someone's fixed mindset trigger.

第二是高投入情境。当前职场中这种情况无处不在——比如探索AI最佳应用场景，或在裁员背景下最大化个人贡献。高投入情境常成为固定型思维触发器，因为我们存在'努力与能力负相关'的信念：如果我必须很努力，可能说明这不适合我，或许我天生就不擅长。

The second is high effort situations. And right now in the workplace, high effort is just everywhere where it's like, try to figure out the best use case for AI or try to figure out how to maximize given layoffs that are happening, my contribution. High effort situations, oftentimes are people's fixed mindset trigger because we have this negative correlation belief between effort and ability. If I have to try hard, it means that maybe this isn't for me. Maybe it's just doesn't come naturally.

第三个心态触发因素是批评性反馈。此时不再是预想被他人评价，而是评价已至且结果不尽如人意。这种批评性反馈会让人感觉非常针对个人——这关乎我本身，是对我的品行、能力与才干的一种评判。

The third mindset trigger is critical feedback. So instead of now anticipating being evaluated by others, the evaluation has come and the answer is not so good. And so that critical feedback, it can feel very personal. This is about me. This is a judgment about my goodness, my competence, my ability.

对许多人而言，这会直接将其推入固定型思维模式。最后一种触发因素是他人成功。当我们看到他人受到赞扬，或当某人获得某个奖项——那个我本以为自己今年也有资格获得的奖项时，这往往会让我们对自身产生固定型思维：如果她如此优秀，那我无论如何都无法与之竞争。

And for a lot of people that moves them straight into their fixed mindset. And then the last one is the success of others. When we see people getting praised or when someone wins an award that I thought I might be eligible for this year, you know, a lot of times that moves us into our fixed mindset about ourselves. If she's so good, there's nothing I can do to compete. Right.

因此在推动自我成长时，了解自身固定型思维何时可能被触发至关重要。若能预见到即将面临高压力情境——比如我知道要参加季度评审，很可能会收到批评反馈——我该如何将心态转向成长型？我们可以这样思考：让我们以学习为目标来应对，我能从中真正学到什么？并非所有反馈都相关或可行，但通过付出努力，我能从中汲取哪些有价值的部分？要知道正是这种努力与挣扎最终会带来学习效果和更好的表现。

And so when it comes to moving ourselves towards growth, I think it's really helpful to know when our fixed mindset trigger is likely to be activated and then to anticipate that if I know that I'm approaching a high effort situation, I know I'm going in for my quarterly review, I'm likely to receive some critical feedback. How do I actually shift that mindset toward growth? And I think that we can think about, okay, let's approach this through the goal of learning. What can I actually learn here? Not everything that might be shared might be relevant or actionable, but what pieces of this can I take away with high effort knowing that it's actually that effort and struggle that actually produces learning and better performance ultimately?

所以尝试以不同方式应对，对于他人成功亦是如此——从他人的成就中获取灵感而非感到威胁。预判这些情况对于思考如何推动自我成长非常重要。

So trying to approach it differently and with the success of others, again, taking inspiration in people's success rather than feeling threatened by it. And so anticipating that is really important when thinking about how to move ourselves toward growth.

我非常赞同。要意识到这些情境触发因素，然后有意识地规划如何应对这些情境，这样才不会...

I love that. Being aware of what those situational triggers are and then being mindful about how you're gonna approach those situations so you don't

正是如此。

That's right.

无意中陷入固定型思维，坦白说，从而伤害到自己。

Unintentionally adopt a fixed mindset and and hurt yourself, frankly.

那是

That's

对的。玛丽，我其实超级好奇。我好像从没问过你这个问题。是的。最初是什么让你对研究思维模式，尤其是成长型思维产生兴趣的？

right. Mary, I actually am super curious. I don't think I've ever asked you this before. Yeah. What first got you interested in studying mindset and growth mindset in particular?

嗯，你知道，我直到博士快毕业时才开始研究思维模式，那时卡罗尔·德韦克从哥伦比亚大学来到斯坦福。突然间，思维模式成了热门话题。人们都在谈论它。我们听了很多关于它是什么和不是什么的讲座。我当时正坐在一个学术研讨会上。

Well, you know, I didn't start studying mindset until the very end of my PhD when Carol Dweck came from Columbia to Stanford. Suddenly mindset was in the air. People were talking about it. We were hearing talks about what this is and isn't. And I was sitting in a colloquium.

那是一个博士生年度研究报告会，所有博士生每年都要向教职员工汇报一次研究，对吧？我在支持一个正在台上汇报研究的朋友。突然，在他演讲中途，房间右侧一位备受尊敬的美国国家科学院院士大声喊出来，没有举手请求发言，而是直接喊道：‘很明显，这项研究的所有致命缺陷是X、Y、Z。’

It was a PhD presentation where all PhD students have to present their research once a year, right? To the faculty. And I was supporting a friend of mine who was up there presenting his research. And all of a sudden in the middle of his talk on the right hand side of the room, a very esteemed national academies professor shouts out, does not get raised their hand to be called up, but shouts out. Well, it's clear the fatal flaw in all of this work is X, Y, Z.

我朋友有点茫然地看过去。我们都惊恐地看向那个人。当我朋友开始回应时，房间另一侧的教授又喊道：‘不，致命缺陷是X、Y、Z，真正的致命缺陷是A、B、C。’突然之间，这两位教授互相争辩起来，看谁才是房间里最聪明的人，谁能用最犀利的评论最快击垮我的朋友。我当时想，哇，这是怎么回事？

And my friend kind of looks over. We all kind of look over in horror at this person. And as my friend starts to engage a professor on the other side of the room, yells out, no, the fatal flaws and XYZ, the fatal flaws, ABC. And suddenly these two professors are fighting amongst themselves to see who's the smartest in the room, can take down my friend the quickest with the most devastating comment. And I thought, wow, what is going on here?

这是一种被允许存在于这个环境中的文化现象。我看到了它对我朋友的影响，对吧？他难以应对这两个人，连插句话都困难。事后，这让他非常痛苦。他好几周都不想碰自己的研究。

This is a cultural phenomenon that is being allowed to exist in this environment. And I saw the way it affected my friend, right? He was having trouble responding to the two, getting an word in Edgewise. Afterward, it was so painful. He didn't want to touch his work for weeks.

最终他因为这段痛苦经历彻底更换了博士课题。但两周后，我在另一个社会心理学博士生研讨会上看到，教职员工们以完全不同的方式参与学生项目。他们仍然会指出学生研究中存在的缺陷和问题，但不是互相争斗来证明谁最聪明，而是通过争论来寻找改进研究的最佳方案。比如他们会说：‘你需要换一个研究样本。’

And he ultimately ended up changing his topic for his PhD because, this situation was so painful for him. But two weeks later, was in a different PhD seminar this time in social psychology. And I saw that the faculty were really engaging the student projects very differently, right? They were still finding the flaws and the problems with the studies that the students were presenting, but instead of fighting amongst each other to see who was the smartest in the room, they were arguing with each other to see what was the best way to improve the study. So you need a new population.

你需要尝试另一种方法。或许如果你这样工作，对吧？于是学生们离开时充满动力，他们掌握了五六种明天就能用来推进工作的策略。我把这个见解带给了正在办公室的卡罗尔。当时我敲了她的门，那时我和她还不太熟。

You need to try this other measure. Maybe if you worked in this way, right? And so the students left motivated and they had five or six strategies that they could apply tomorrow to make progress on their work. So I took this insight over to Carol who was in her office. I knocked on her door and I didn't know her well at that point.

我说，卡罗尔，我知道大多数人把思维模式看作个体差异。比如，你的固定型思维是什么？它如何影响你？我的成长型思维又如何影响我？

And I said, Carol, I know most people have thought about mindset as this individual difference. You know, what's your fixed mindset? How does it affect you? What's my growth mindset? How does it affect me?

但有没有人想过这其实是一种文化现象，是群体、教育环境、课堂乃至职场环境的特征？身处固定型或成长型思维文化中，对其中的人会产生什么影响？她用卡罗尔式的眼神看着我，眨了几下眼睛说，不，玛丽，从没人这么想过，我们应该一起研究这个。那是2008年2月。第一批关于思维模式文化的研究在2010年发表了。

But has anyone ever thought about this as a cultural phenomenon, as a feature of groups, settings, of education, classrooms, of, you know, workplace settings? And what would it do to be in one of these fixed or growth mindset cultures to the people within it? And she looked at me in her Carol way and she kind of like blinked a couple of times and she's like, no, Mare, no one's ever thought about it that way and we should be doing this together. So that was in 02/2008. And then the first studies on mindset culture came out in 2010.

后来，我们、我们的学生以及实验室外的许多研究者都开始探索思维模式文化这个概念。所以，让我投身其中的正是这种——

And then we and our students and many others outside of our labs have now pursued this idea of mindset culture. So that's, what's got me into it was this kind of like

观察过程。

Watching it.

将我对文化与情境的理解融合，并应用到一个从未以这种方式思考过思维模式的领域。

Merging between my idea of culture and context and applying it into a place that never had thought about mindset in that way.

是啊。噢，我太喜欢这个故事了。知道这个起源真让人兴奋，尤其是在卡罗尔工作的地方

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I'm so glad to know that story. That's such a fabulous origin, like, in the place where Carol worked

没错。这些相互竞争的文化，是的，是的。

Right. Where these competing cultures that Yes. Yes.

或是不同的文化，小小的微观世界。这太有趣了。非常感谢你，玛丽。能与你一同学习真是件愉快的事。我真的很享受这次对话，并期待未来能有更多交流。

Or different cultures, little microcosms. That's so interesting. Well, thank you so much, Mary. It's such a pleasure to be a learner with you. I really enjoyed having this conversation and and look forward to hopefully many more.

谢谢你，凯蒂。这次谈话非常愉快。

Thank you, Katie. This was a lot of fun.

玛丽·墨菲是印第安纳大学心理与脑科学教授，也是优秀著作《成长的文化：新思维科学如何改变个人、团队与组织》的作者。你可以在节目注释中找到她作品的链接，以及她的导师卡罗尔·德韦克畅销书《心态：成功的新心理学》的链接。请访问schwab.com/choiceology。想将成长型思维应用到投资生活中吗？嘉信的见解与教育网站提供丰富的教育资源，包括其他原创播客、文章、视频等。

Mary Murphy is a professor of psychological and brain sciences at Indiana University and author of the excellent book Cultures of Growth, How the New Science of Mindset Can Transform Individuals, Teams, and Organizations. You can find links to her work in the show notes, as well as a link to her mentor Carol Dweck's mega bestselling book, mindset, the new psychology of success. Just visit schwab.com/choiceology. Are you interested in applying a growth mindset to your investing life? Schwab's insights and education site offers a host of educational resources, including several other original podcasts, articles, videos, and more.

你可以在schwab.com/learn找到所有内容。就是schwab.com/learn。一旦熟悉了成长型与固定型思维的研究，你会开始发现各处的高绩效者显然已将这些研究内化。比如今年早些时候观看美国网球公开赛时，我看到世界排名第二的伊加·斯维亚泰克在手机发完短信后转向记者接受赛后采访。记者有些八卦地问她刚给谁发信息，斯维亚泰克脸红着解释说她给教练发消息询问能否尽快预留十分钟练习场地。

You can find them all at schwab.com/learn. That's schwab.com/learn. Once you become familiar with the research on growth versus fixed mindsets, you'll start spotting high performers everywhere who have clearly internalized the lessons from this research. For example, while I was watching the US Open tennis tournament earlier this year, I saw the world's number two player, Iga Shviatek, shoot off a text on her cell phone before turning to a reporter for her scheduled on court post match interview. The reporter somewhat nosily asked who she'd just texted, and Shveiatek blushed before explaining she'd messaged her coach to ask if he could reserve a ten minute practice court as soon as possible.

斯维亚泰克刚在大满贯网球赛中赢得重要比赛，她的首要任务是确保下次比赛前能花时间提升自己。她看到学习成长的机会就立刻抓住——这正是成长型思维的终极体现。这种反应为何可取显而易见：若网球比赛中发球手感不佳，成长型思维意味着尽快预约场地练习发球，而非容忍技术缺陷。

Shvea Tech had just won a major match at a grand slam tennis tournament, and her first priority was to make sure she could spend time trying to improve before she played again. She saw an opportunity to learn and grow, and she leapt for it. The ultimate sign of a growth mindset. It's easy to see why this is a desirable reaction. If your serve feels off in a tennis match, reacting with a growth mindset means booking court time to practice serves as soon as you can instead of resigning yourself to manage with a flaw in your game.

同理，若股票投资组合表现不佳一两年，成长型思维意味着找专家探讨优化资产配置的机会；若工作汇报效果欠佳，成长型思维意味着寻找改进不足的机会而非回避公开演讲。我最欣赏的成长型思维研究证明：如同其他事物，我们对思维模式本身也能学习成长。德克萨斯大学心理学家大卫·耶格尔通过大型实验证明，简短教育干预能有效让学生明白智力非固定，而是通过努力练习增长的。

Likewise, if your stock portfolio had a disappointing year or two, reacting with a growth mindset means finding time to talk with an expert about whether there are opportunities to improve your asset allocation. And if your last presentation at work was a disappointment, reacting with a growth mindset means looking for chances to improve on what went wrong rather than dodging future public speaking opportunities. My favorite research on growth mindset is about the fact that, like anything else, we can learn and grow when it comes to this very thing: our mindset. That is, it shows that having a fixed or growth mindset isn't just a trait we're stuck with. UT Austin psychologist David Yeager proved in a large experiment that brief educational interventions can effectively teach students that their intelligence isn't fixed, but that it grows with effortful practice.

这种认知让学生更愿意接受学术挑战，比如报名参加高等数学课程。因此，你该问自己的问题永远不应该是'我够优秀吗？'，而应该是'我该如何成长才能足够优秀？'。这是一个需要内化的重要课题，让我们都能充分发挥潜力。同时，这也是育儿、教学、指导和辅导中极为宝贵的洞见，让你无论走到哪里都能营造成长的文化氛围。

And this knowledge makes students more willing to take on academic challenges, like signing up for an advanced math class. So the question you ask yourself should never be, am I good enough? It should always be, How can I grow to be good enough? It's an important lesson to internalize so we can all reach our full potential. And it's also an invaluable insight to bring to parenting, teaching, coaching, and mentoring so you can build cultures of growth everywhere you go.

您正在收听的是查尔斯·施瓦布原创播客《选择心理学》。如果您喜欢本节目，我们将非常感激您在苹果播客留下评论，在Spotify评分，或在任何收听平台给予反馈。您也可以在喜爱的播客应用中免费订阅我们。若想获取更多关于如何改进决策的洞见——正如我们在《选择心理学》中为您带来的内容——您可以订购我的著作《如何改变》，或订阅我在Substack上的月度通讯《米尔克曼送达》。下期节目，我将对话我的沃顿同事安吉拉·达克沃斯，她是心理学家兼畅销书《坚毅》的作者。

You've been listening to Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. If you've enjoyed the show, we'd be really grateful if you'd leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or feedback wherever you listen. You can also follow us for free in your favorite podcasting app. And if you want more of the kinds of insights we bring you on Choiceology about how to improve your decisions, you can order my book, How to Change, or sign up for my monthly newsletter, Milkman Delivers on Substack. Next time, I'll speak with Angela Duckworth, my Wharton colleague, who is a psychologist and the bestselling author of the book, Grit.

她将阐述研究结果，揭示抵制诱惑的能力如何强有力地预测人生成果，以及我们的自控力如何被强化或削弱。我是凯蒂·米尔克曼博士，下次再会。重要声明详见节目备注或访问schwab.com/choiceology。

She'll describe research showing how powerfully the ability to resist temptations can predict life outcomes and how our self control can be strengthened or undermined. I'm doctor Katie Milkman. Talk to you soon. For important disclosures, see the show notes or visit schwab.com/choiceology.