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当白人第一次从海外来到这里时，他看了看，说：这是上帝的国度。
When the white man first came here from over the seas, he looked and he said, this is God's own country.
他对这片发现的土地感到非常满意。
He was mighty well pleased with this land that he'd found.
于是他说：我要在这里开辟属于我自己的土地。
And he said, I will make here my own piece of ground.
然而，他仍需经历许多战斗。
Now many's the battles he still had to fight.
许多家庭在夜里逝去。
And many's the family who died in the night.
欢迎来到这个圈子里，我们希望通过提出有意义的问题，来观察、分析、反思，并更好地回应我们的环境，从而引出更好的问题。
Welcome to circle around where we hope to see, analyze, reflect, respond better to our context by asking meaningful questions that lead to better questions.
在本季的最后一集中，我采访了我的朋友卡罗琳·鲍威尔，我们继续探讨‘地方、空间与归属感’这一主题，她分享了自己的旅程。
In this season's final episode, I interviewed my friend Caroline Powell, and we continue to look at the idea of place, space, and belonging as she shares her own journey.
嘿，卡罗琳。
Hey, Caroline.
嗨。
Hi.
很高兴见到你。
Nice to see you.
你好。
Hello.
这个口罩与你保持了负责任的距离。
That mask is a responsible distance apart from you.
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
酷。
Cool.
哦，我的朋友，非常感谢你。
Oh, my friend, thank you so much.
我一直以来都渴望能和你共度时光，同时也想和你聊聊这些事。
I have been dying, firstly, to spend time with you, but also to to talk to you about this stuff.
首先，因为你在我生命中的意义，以及我相信神使用你在我生命中所激发的旅程。
Firstly, because of who you are to me and the journey that god I believe god has used you to just catalyze in our own life.
我迫不及待想听你分享你的研究和相关内容，因为正是你对这些事如此深沉的投入，让我真正开始深入思考这些话语。
I can't wait for you to just tell us some of your studies and all of that because that's that's one of the things for me that really made me lean into this word because you care about it so deeply.
所以每当我们开始一集节目时，我们总是先默想道成肉身，思考耶稣被差遣来到这个充满混乱、不一致、被破碎之人维持和延续的破碎体系的世界。
So whenever we start the episode, we always just start we we begin with meditating on the incarnation and the fact that Jesus was sent to us, was sent to this messy world with a whole lot of inconsistencies, with broken systems perpetuated and sustained by broken people.
这一切都是为了向我们显明爱，恢复我们，善待我们，使我们与祂建立关系，同时也修复我们彼此之间的关系，让这个世界的体系和世界本身变得更好，对吧？
I mean, all this was to show love to us and to restore us and to be kind to us, you know, and to bring us into relationship with him, but also to restore relationship with each other and make this the systems of this world and and the world a better a better environment, right, and and the world itself better.
因此，每当我想到道成肉身，我就被吸引去思想：耶稣并没有置身事外，而是进入了这混乱之中。
And so for me, whenever I think about the incarnation, it just draws to it draws me to the fact that Jesus didn't just stay loose, but he came into the mess.
最近让我印象深刻的经文是哥林多后书第三章12节，那里说我们不像摩西那样，用帕子蒙住脸，使以色列人看不到那渐渐废去的荣光，因为他们的心刚硬。
And the scripture that has stood out for me in the last while is from second Corinthians chapter three from verse 12, where it talks about how we are not like Moses who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away, but their minds were dull.
直到今日，当诵读旧约时，同样的帕子仍然存在。
For to this day, the same veil remains when the old covenant is read.
这层帷幕没有被揭开，因为只有在基督里，它才被除去。
It has not been removed because Christ, because only in Christ is it taken away.
直到今日，每逢诵读摩西的书时，仍有帕子蒙着他们的心。
Even to this day when Moses is red, a veil covers their eyes.
但 whenever 有人归向主，帕子就会被除去。
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
主就是那灵；主的灵在哪里，哪里就有自由。
Now the Lord is the spirit, and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
我们众人既然敞着脸得以看见主的荣光，好像从镜子里返照，就变成主的形状，荣上加荣，如同从主的灵变成的。
And we all who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory are being transformed into his image with ever increasing glory, which comes from the Lord who is the spirit.
所以，卡罗琳，对我来说，有几件事特别突出：我一直对上帝在我内心所做的隐秘工作感到满足。
And so the few things for me that stick out, Caroline, is the fact that I've always been satisfied, I guess, with the internal private work of what God does.
当这位是灵的主进入我的生命时，祂就揭去了帕子。
When this Lord who's a spirit comes into my life, he unveils things.
对吧？
Right?
我看到自己的行为。
I see my behavior.
我看到自己的偏见。
I see my prejudices.
我看到自己容易嫉妒和贪婪的倾向。
I see my propensity to to be jealous and to be covetous.
加拉太书里提到的那些属肉体的果子，你知道的。
All those things in Galatians, you know, about the the fruits of the flesh.
但还有一件事发生了，特别是通过这段门训关系，我被引领进入另一种自由，就是神开启我的眼睛，让我看到这个世界，看到我所在的城市——神已经向我揭示了这座城市，让我能享受这片空间，只是活在其中，而不去在意那里的故事、人，或我所处之地的意义。
But something else has happened, especially through this relationship where I've been discipled to to step into another aspect of freedom, which is God unveiling my eyes to see the world and to see my city where God has unveiled the city for me, where I feel like I could enjoy space and just do and live in a place and not really care about the stories or the people in that place or or the meaning of where I place myself.
明白吗？
Okay?
以及我对自由应有的样子所构想的意义。
And the meaning of of what I I envisage freedom to look like.
现在，我被邀请进入一种不只是私人层面的自由，而是听到神对我说：‘露兹，我要揭开这座城市的真貌，让你能像我一样看见它。’
We're now I I'm invited to a freedom that is not just a private freedom, but to say, hey, as in this is God speaking and challenging my heart like, Luz, I want to unveil what this city looks like so that you can see it the way that I see it.
我想邀请你参与一种比你内心所经历的更广阔的自由。
I want to invite you to participate in a freedom that is bigger than just what's happening in your heart.
你内心发生的事很棒。
What's happening in your heart is great.
个人内心的变化固然重要，但如果不能转化为参与那种不舒适的解放，那就不够了，因为这种解放就在我们周围。
What happens in individual's heart is great, but if it doesn't translate to participating in the liberation that is not comfortable, it's it's all around us.
它存在于这些空间、地方和那些被驱离家园的人们身上，也存在于我们与之脱节的社区，或那些资源匮乏的社区中——城市规划如何直接影响我们对他人繁荣或不繁荣的想象。
It's in this it's spaces, it's places, it's people that are displaced from their homes or just this idea of what, you know, people communities that we are divorced from or or we don't place ourselves in in under resourced communities, how special planning actually speaks right into how we envisage the thriving or the not thriving of other people.
这一直是一段令人恐惧的旅程。
And it's been a it's been a scary journey.
对吧？
Right?
但如今，神不希望我再对这一切视而不见。
And so but now god doesn't want me to be veiled from that.
他希望我看见，因为我相信他正在邀请我们参与这种自由的层面。
He wants me to see it because I I believe he's inviting us to participate in that aspect of freedom.
所以，我非常希望——顺便说一下，想听听你的故事，因为我想让大家直接听到你的声音。
So I would love it I mean, just segueing into your story because I want people to hear from you.
我很希望你能介绍一下自己，然后也告诉我们你热衷于什么。
I'd love it if you would introduce yourself, and then just tell us also what you're passionate about.
然后，显然我们会聊聊这种‘揭开真相’对你意味着什么。
And then, obviously, we'll talk a little bit about what that unveiling has meant for you.
当然。
Sure.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
不客气。
You're welcome.
哇。
Wow.
我觉得我可以听你讲好几个小时。
I feel like I can listen to you for for hours.
你永远如此。
You forever.
我喜欢你将它描述为层层揭开的过程。
I love how you describe it as these these layers of unveiling.
我真的很喜欢这种描述，因为我觉得你给了我新的语言，让我现在能用它来重新理解那段经文，以及我对自己人生和历史的过往认知。
I I I I just love that description of it because I think I think you've given me new language to just even with that scripture now to how I've often described my own life and history.
所以回答你的问题，我于1976年出生在南非。
So to answer your question, I I was born in 1976 in South Africa.
所以我总说，我出生在一场风暴中，你知道的，那是我们国家历史上关键的一年，也是我来到这个世界的一年。
So I always say born in a storm, you know, and such a crucial year in our country's history, and that was the year that I came to Earth.
因此，从我们都作为上帝形象承载者的角度来看，那就是我进入这个世界的起点。
So in terms of, you know, how we are all image bearers of God, that's where that was my entrance into this this world.
那是1976年的开普敦。
It was Cape Town 1976.
我出生在一个白人家庭，我们是英国后裔，已经是第三代英国移民。
I was born into a white family, and we are British descent family, so third generation British.
所以我们带着殖民历史而来，我的祖先在殖民时期，趁着当时为他们敞开的大门，迁移到了这个世界这一地区。
So we come with a colonial history and how my ancestors moved to this part of the world with all the the open doors for them that was happening during colonialism at the time.
然后我的人生故事从1976年一直延续到八十年代，再到我的高中岁月。
And then the story of my life follows from 1976 through the eighties and then my high school years.
我一开始上的是所只招收白人的高中，1989年入学，1993年毕业。
I started out high school at a whites only high school and in 1989 and finished in 1993.
我想这些是正确的年份，一共五年。
I think those are the dates, five years.
但在科萨年代，在那段所谓的自由时期，
But through the Kodesa years, through the the the, you know freedom.
是的。
Yeah.
正是自由全面谈判的时期，一切都充满不确定性，也是种族隔离制度最暴力的年份之一，那个体系在拼命反抗即将到来的自由。
Exact the full negotiation of freedom and everything being so uncertain and that some of the most violent years of apartheid where the the system was kicking back, fighting against the freedom that was coming.
因此，这构成了我成长的背景，也构成了我作为基督徒的成长背景。
And so that was the backdrop to my my growing up and also my my growing up as a Christian as well.
然后我满18岁，两个月后参加了1994年南非首次自由公正的选举。
And then I I turned 18 and two months later voted in the first free and fair elections of South Africa in 1994.
但我成长在一个白人专属的泡泡里，这个泡泡在我高中时期缓慢变化，但依然非常明显。
And so but I grew up in a bubble, in a whites only bubble, that was slowly changing through my my high school years, but it was still very much a bubble.
我在开普敦的坎普斯湾长大，那里位于山脉之后，因此很少接触到城市里发生的事情。
I grew up in in Camps Bay in Cape Town, is also behind the mountains, so not exposed to a lot of what was happening in the city.
后来我选择到斯泰伦博斯大学读书，那又是另一个泡泡。
I then chose to study at Stellenbosch University, which was another bubble.
然后我在完成学业后选择去英国生活。
And then I I chose to go and live in in The UK after studying.
所以在新南非诞生的最初几年里，我离开了南非。
And so I was away from South Africa after those first few years of of the the the the new South Africa.
我离开时心中仍充满彩虹的希望，仍以身为南非人为荣，不再感到羞耻，所有这些情感都伴随着我，但随后我在另一个国家生活，却从未真正反思过身为英国人和南非人的意义。
So I left with a sense of the rainbow still very much on my heart and still very much part of my identity, excited to be a South African, no longer ashamed, all of those things, but then lived in another country back in that space of of really not interrogating what it meant to be British and South African.
另一个泡泡，然后我从那里回来，才发现我回到的是一个我从未真正生活过的国家。
Another bubble and then returned from from that time to realize I was coming back to a country that I had never really lived in Okay.
凭借我的历史、我的身体、我的信仰，我必须厘清所有这些方面。
With my history, with my body, with my faith, and I had to work out all of those things.
因此，当我以二十多岁的人的身份重返这些不同的‘泡泡’时，我必须选择是否进行这种多层次的揭示。
And so those those different bubbles, as I came back into that as a as a person in my late twenties, I had to then choose this multilayered unveiling or not.
因此，以信仰为指引，踏上这种揭示之旅，使我走向了我们现在所讨论的一些话题。
And so to go into that unveiling as a faithful part of my my faith journey is what brought me to some of the stuff that we talk about now.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一段长达二十年的揭示历程，而且永无止境。
And that's been a twenty year journey of of unveiling, and it is endless.
多年。
Years.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，是的，我想从我从那些截然分离的环境中回来算起，现在已经快二十年了。
Well, yeah, I guess it's coming up for twenty years now from when I came back from those quite separated spaces.
我一直对世界充满兴趣，因此我的意识一直在增长，但直到回到南非，我才意识到这才是我的家；但如果我不允许这种揭示和重新学习发生，我就无法真正称它为家。
There was always consciousness growing in me because I was always interested in the world, but never quite as much as as returning to South Africa and realizing that this was home, but it also I couldn't really genuinely call it home if I wasn't going to allow this unveiling and this relearning to happen.
但我想我们会更多地谈到这些，是的。
But I think we'll talk about more of that Yeah.
稍后再说。
In a moment.
但，是的，这就是我的经历。
But, yeah, that's that's mine.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我喜欢你所说的，关于你身份的这些不同方面，让你很难真正称南非为家，因为你无法把一个你从未真正选择去生活的地方称为家。
That's I mean, that's I love what you say about, you know, these different these different aspects of who you are making it hard for you to really call South Africa home because you can't really call home a place that you've never really chose chosen to live in.
对吧？
Right?
关于这一点，我想就此切入，问问你是怎么看待这个问题的：这期间感觉如何？
And I think on that, I just want to jump into that to that question about how you how how has it been?
我的意思是，作为一个生活在南非的白人女性，你本可以继续沿着原来的轨迹生活。
I mean, as a white woman living in South Africa, you could actually just continue in that trajectory.
你知道的？
You know?
而且你说这是一段长达二十年的揭示之旅。
And, also, you said it was a twenty year journey of unveiling.
对吧？
Right?
我们最近听到的很多事情，比如六月份发生的那些，抱歉，是黑人的命也是命运动。
A lot of the things that we've heard about, let's say, for instance, in June, it was the big that BLM sorry.
让我这么说吧，比如艾哈迈德·阿伯里事件。
Let me say it rather the incidents of, like, it was Ahmad Albury.
还有布伦娜·泰勒事件。
It was Breonna Taylor.
是乔治·弗洛伊德。
It was George George Floyd.
而且这件事引发了全球的愤怒。
And and there was a global uproar about it.
对吧？
Right?
我认为这让很多人发生了巨大的转变，人们开始提出很多问题。
And I think it made a whole lot of people shift in a big way, and people are asking a lot of questions.
甚至在南非，许多白人也在努力，那些尚未踏上盟友之路的人，正试图理解这段更完整的历史和依然存在的遗产。
A lot of white people even in South Africa are trying to, you know, have have some who have not been on the allyship journey of trying to understand the fuller question of the the history and the legacies that are still here.
你知道，有些人实际上才刚刚开始他们的旅程，这些对话非常了不起。
You know, some some people actually began their journeys, right, and they've been remarkable conversations.
但我注意到，比如布雷肯费尔德这个故事，在2020年，有一所高中曾计划或已经安排了一场仅限白人的毕业舞会。
But then, I've noticed that, like, for instance, with this story with Breckenfeld, that in 2020, that there's a high school that that was planning or had planned whites only matric ball in 2020.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得这真的让我心碎。
I think it really broke my heart.
我不确定这是否是一种种族创伤或创伤后应激障碍，但我就是关闭了自己。
I don't know whether it's some kind of form of of racial trauma, PTSD in me, but I just shut down.
但与此同时，我感受到一种来自灵性的催促，让我继续观察，因为那里有一些非常重要的信息，卡罗琳，说明这些事情并不是过去发生的。
And and but at the same time, I felt the urging from the spirit that I I should just still watch because there's something very telling there, Caroline, to say that these things are not things that are happening in the past.
它们正在默默酝酿，悄然持续。
They are they're silently brewing, and they're quietly continuing.
现在我想知道，就持续在信仰旅程中实践灵性觉察这一决定而言，你的旅程是怎样的？
And I wanna know now what has your journey been in terms of that decision to continually practice spiritual awareness as part of your faith journey?
因为这一定是非常非凡的。
Because that that has to be that has to be quite phenomenal.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，这确实是一个决定。
So I think I I will acknowledge it was a decision.
这是一个源于渴望家成为真实存在的决定。
It was a decision that came out of a sense of wanting home to be real.
我想你提到了这一点：我希望这真正成为我的家，而不是作为一个过客生活在我的家中。
I suppose that you you touched on that of being like, I want this to really be my home, not to be a visitor in my home.
而我能做到这一点的唯一方式，就是移动我的身体。
And the only way I can do that is if I move my body.
所以，如果我能打破这些隔阂。
So if I if I break out of the bubbles.
于是我做了一些非常有意识的决定，关于我去哪里做礼拜。
And so I did I did make a few quite deeply intentional decisions about where I went to church.
我改变了。
I changed.
我转换了职业，搬了家，换了住处和室友，这一切都在相对较短的时间内发生了。
I shifted in my career, and I changed where I was living in the city and who I was living with, and that did happen over a fairly short period of time.
但这些决定之所以出现，是因为之前的旅程让我决心不再像以前那样孤立——无论是我在城市中的物理存在，还是我对作为南非信仰者在世上的意义的理解。
But it it they were decisions that that that they would give presented themselves to me because the journey that came from before was this decision to not want to stay as isolated as I was, both in my physical presence in the city as well as in my my knowledge of of of what it means to be in the world as a person of faith in South Africa over the in the time that I was living in.
你谈到这些种族不公事件，但它们只是表面的现象。
So you speak about about these these these incidents of racial injustice that happen, but they are they are the the things that are on the surface.
它们往往是更深层问题的表征，是问题的体现者。
They are the the things that often become the symptom they're the symptom bearers of what's happening in in a thing.
因此，我们必须带着这种认知生活：造成种族不公的系统和环境，以及我们的历史，始终与我们紧密相连。
And so it's it's it's living with this knowledge that that the the systems and the and the the environment that's causing racial injustice, the our history to be very present with us all the time.
因此，我们不能再把种族隔离称为历史，也不能再把殖民主义称为历史，因为我们必须承认并正视：我们生活在一个——不，等等。
So actually not being able to call apartheid history anymore, not being able to call colonialism history because we have to admit and acknowledge that we live in well, no.
我们生活在一个当下状态中。
That we live in a current state
处于一种被殖民、被种族隔离的状态。
of of of of
因为我们的城市格局就是如此。
colonialized apartheid because of how our cities are.
没有人能否认这一点。
We no one can deny it.
我们生活在这种痛苦和矛盾之中。
We live with this this this pain and this dissonance of it.
因此，我们要么跟随这种痛苦，深入其中，试图理解它，看到自己在其中的位置，作为信仰生活的一部分，作为城市中信仰者身份不可分割的一部分；要么就说：不行。
And and so we either follow that pain and go into it and try and understand it and see our place in it as part of our faith lives, as parts and parcel of who we are as people of faith in the city, or we go, no.
我们做不到。
We can't.
这太难了。
It's too hard.
然后我们继续生活在泡沫中，伴随着日益加剧的不适，作为白人南非人，当有人暗示我们应当以不同方式生活时，我们常常感到内疚或防御，并抛出一堆问题，比如：我该如何……你们知道，我们……是的？
And then we continue to live in the bubble and and with growing with growing discomfort and often as white South Africans with guilt or defensiveness when somebody suggests we live differently, we come back with a bunch of questions as to, well, how can I you know, you we and so yeah?
因此，对我而言，那些允许生活发生转变和移动的决定，必须在身体上和地理上发生，体现在我们生活的地方、我们的身体和人际关系中，而不仅仅是阅读正确的书籍并希望获得对体制的更多了解。
So for me, that those the decisions to allow allow your life to shift and to move, I think they have to they have to happen physically and geographically and with where we live our lives with our our bodies and our relationships as well as just reading the right books and and hoping to to get some some more knowledge about the system.
我认为你说得非常对，对许多人来说，这并不是一个出于好奇的话题。
And I think you are spot on in that, like, for many for many of us, this is not it's not a topic of curiosity.
这不是什么新爱好，而是每天都要带到耶稣面前的、从种族创伤中疗愈的过程。
It's not you know, it's not a new hobby, but healing from racial trauma is a is a daily thing that one has to bring to Jesus.
我认为也很重要的是要认识到，我在另一集中称之为自我偶像化的概念，这是这一切的根源——当一个群体或社区自我偶像化时，就会启动整个循环，使其他人被迫让自己的生活朝着那个自认为比他人更像上帝、更承载上帝形象的人的方向流动，如此往复。
And I think it's it's important also to realize that what what I called it in another episode, the idea of self idolatry, which is the the root of this thing that, like, when when one when one group or community self idolizes, it sets this whole cycle into motion where other people, they they cause for their lives to flow in the direction of the person who has decided that they are now going to be the image of god, the image bearer of god more than others and so on and so on.
为了夺回这种权力，我们要么屈从于那些话语，要么变成造成这一切的同一类人。
And then in a way to reclaim that power, we either succumb to the words that are used, or or we become the very thing that that caused this whole thing.
而且，人们内心有一种想要杀死、摧毁或夺走伤害你之物的冲动。
And and and there's a sense of wanting to of of wanting to to kill, to destroy, or take away what's hurt you.
我认为，这正是我在疗愈种族创伤过程中意识到的一点：我不希望变得只想着除掉那个想除掉我的人。
And I think that's one of the things I know I'm recognizing in terms of just this healing of of wanting to heal from racial trauma is that I wanna I I I don't want to get articulate at at getting rid of the person who wants to get rid of me.
否则，我就不会坐在这里和你面对面了。
Otherwise, I wouldn't be sitting across the table.
说到这一点，卡罗琳，我心想：我们之前有过一段有趣的对话，关于作为一个白人女性，你是否应该代表你所代表的群体发言？
And, actually, speaking of that, Caroline, I thought to myself I mean, we had a interesting back and forth about, as a white woman, should you be the one, you know, speaking on behalf of you know?
你是否应该发言，还是我应该对你发言，诸如此类？
Should you be the one should I should I be speaking to you and all of that?
我想再次肯定的是，我之所以重视听你作为白人的经历，是因为我认为，很多听这个播客的英语或阿非利卡语听众，往往不知道该如何开启‘上帝啊，是的，请’这样的旅程。
And I did wanna just affirm again that the reason it's important for me to hear your journey as a white person is because I think a lot of times maybe if there's a person, you know, who's English or Afrikaans listening to this podcast, a lot of times people don't know how to begin that journey of saying, god, yes, please.
向我揭示这座城市吧，因为这会让人感到不适。
Unveil the city to me because it's gonna be uncomfortable.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Yeah.
这种不适感就像酒精瓶上的警告一样。
There is a discomfort because it's like that that warning on the on the alcohol bottle.
对吧？
Right?
说要负责任地享受，无论是酒精还是烟草。
Say, enjoy responsibly, whether it's alcohol or tobacco.
通常，这种警告适用于那些能带来某种愉悦感的东西。
And and, normally, it was it's it is with things that that bring some kind of pleasure or whatever.
所以无论是酒精还是烟草。
So whether it's it's alcohol or tobacco.
而在这一个方面，可以说，听好了。
And on this one side, one could say, listen.
你根本不该去看酒精。
You shouldn't even be looking at alcohol.
对吧？
Right?
对基督徒来说，喝酒本身就是一种罪恶。
It's sinful for Christians to even be drinking alcohol to begin with.
对吧？
Right?
而在另一方面，你可以说，你知道吗？
And then on the other side, you could say, you know what?
你就尽情享受生活吧。
You just live your best life.
对吧？
Right?
但我觉得，如果我把这当作一种愿意去了解这座城市的类比的话。
Don't but I feel like if if I use that as an analogy of being willing to to see the city.
但做决定时，总有些东西让人纠结。
But there's something about deciding.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我不想过度回避，比如说，那些与白人富裕阶层相关的地方，你知道的，那些历史上只有白人居住的区域。
I don't want to overly avoid let's say, for instance, spaces like, you know, that are that are linked to, like, white affluence, you know, places like, you know, where in historically, only white people have lived.
有些地方是这样的，你知道，我们甚至根本不应该参与或生活在那些地方。
And there are some that are like, you know, we shouldn't even be participating or living in those spaces.
所以有一种极端观点认为，那些有这种历史的地方，我们应该避开。
So there's this extreme that says, well, places that have that history, we should avoid.
别碰。
Don't touch.
别去那里。
Don't go there.
对吧？
Right?
或者另一种观点，我们说，你知道吗？
Or on this one where we say, you know what?
其实这并不重要。
It actually doesn't matter.
你只要过好自己的生活就行了。
You just live your best life.
你住在哪里并不重要。
It doesn't matter where you live.
你不能被历史和这一切所拖累地生活。
You can't live your life being burdened by history and all of that.
你只需过好自己的生活。
You just live your best life.
我觉得在享受城市和负责任地对待它之间，存在一种折中的方式。
And I feel like there's this this is an there's an in between of of of enjoying a city responsibly.
在这一边，我们可以说，你知道吗？
On this side, we can say, you know what?
你无法享受一个有着不公正历史的城市。
You can't enjoy a city that has a an unjust history.
你不能。
You can't.
你不该去那里，诸如此类。
You shouldn't even be there and all of that.
你无法看到它的美。
You can't see the beauty.
你无法参与一个充满可怕记忆的沉重之地。
You can't participate in in the in a place that's heavy laden with that horrific memory.
但另一方面，你会觉得，你知道吗？
But on this side, there's a sense of, like, you know what?
朋友们，就当个游客一样生活吧。
Live your life as a visitor, guys.
我们在这里。
We're here.
上帝会来接我们。
God is gonna come fetch us.
我们迟早会去天堂的，不，等等。
We're gonna go to the suite by and by rather No.
从一个不那么灵性、不那么末世论的角度来看，人们可能会说，你知道吗？
With a or or on the a on a on a less spiritual with the with the less of an eschatological view, people can be like, you know what?
人生只有一次。
We only live once.
just enjoy just enjoy what you can, and you just keep it moving again.
Just enjoy just enjoy what you can, and you just keep it moving again.
How do I enjoy a city responsibly?
How do I enjoy a city responsibly?
I want to I want to pull back on a word that you used actually, which is curiosity.
I want to I want to pull back on a word that you used actually, which is curiosity.
So so, for example, I think as as a white South African with the history that I have, it would be it could be a very violent thing to just say, I'm just gonna be curious about our history when it's somebody's lived reality of violence still.
So so, for example, I think as as a white South African with the history that I have, it would be it could be a very violent thing to just say, I'm just gonna be curious about our history when it's somebody's lived reality of violence still.
But I think that we I think that we have a faith that is based in in curiosity.
But I think that we I think that we have a faith that is based in in curiosity.
I think that I think that there's mysteries to to our faith.
I think that I think that there's mysteries to to our faith.
There's mysteries to to god and to the word of god where we are we are and and as human beings, we're created to be inherently curious.
There's mysteries to to god and to the word of god where we are we are and and as human beings, we're created to be inherently curious.
So I think that I think we do need to nurture.
So I think that I think we do need to nurture.
我认为，那些有着暴力历史、来自继承的不公正特权空间的南非人，有必要对自己所占据和穿行的空间保持好奇。
I think that that that South Africans with with histories of of of violence and and who come from an inherited space of of of un unjust privilege need to be curious about the spaces that they occupy and that they move through.
但我觉得这种好奇需要勇气，因为要看见……
But I think it needs to be a curiosity with a courage because to see.
需要勇气，因为如果你的好奇心驱使你去探究事物为何如此，最终让你意识到，这一切之所以如此，是因为过去和现在的暴力与不公，那么你就需要有勇气去承认这一点，然后向神发问：在我的故事中，这种暴力在哪里回响？我在其中扮演了什么角色？以便我能以不同的方式存在于这个空间中。
With a courage because if it's if your curiosity as to why things are the way they are leads you into realizing that they are the way they are because of violence and injustice, both past and present, then the courage needs to be to acknowledge that and then to ask god where in my story is that being echoed or or where where am I part of that so that I can be in this space in a different way.
因此，我想这就是在享受事物时保持责任的方式。
And so I suppose that's the the the be responsible in your enjoyment of things.
举个例子，我记得当我开始这段试图以不同方式生活、以更富好奇感穿行城市的特别旅程时，我去拜访了一位朋友，地点是我从未去过的西点区的一栋公寓楼。
So an example would be, I remember going to as I've kind of started this this this special journey of of trying to live differently and move through the city in a in a more curious way, I went to to visit a friend in a place I've never been before in in in a block of flats in Sea Point.
当我到达她的公寓，我们在阳台上喝酒时，我望出去，看到一大片开阔的土地。
And as I got to the to her her her apartment and we were having a drink on the balcony, I looked out and there was a big piece of open land.
我从那片土地上望出去，要知道，我一生都住在大西洋海滨。
And I could see from the land and, I mean, I've lived on the Atlantic Seaboard my whole life.
但我从未知道那里竟有这样一片开阔地。
I'd never I never knew that open land was there.
我能从那片土地的空旷状态看出端倪。
And I could see from the way the land was was empty.
它并不是即将要建公寓楼之类的状况。
Was it it hadn't just been it wasn't like a block of flats was about to be built or something.
那片土地已经空置了非常非常长的时间，而我们没人知道为什么。
It was land that had been empty for a very, very long time, and nobody none of us knew why.
但我立刻想到，这一定与《集团区域法》有关。
But I immediately thought this has this has got a story that comes back to to to the group areas act.
回到家后，我问了家人，也做了一些阅读，发现曾经有一整个社区的人住在西点，他们被驱逐，家园被推土机夷为平地，就像第6区一样。
And when I got home, I asked my family, and I did some reading and I discovered that there was a whole community of people that lived in Sea Point that were removed and their homes were bulldozed just like District 6.
但因为第6区位于城市中心，成了城市中一道巨大的伤疤，它被纪念着，因为仍有土地主张者在那儿，相关程序也在进行，而且非常公开。
But because District 6 is in the middle of the city, it's this massive scar on the city, it's this memorialized space because there's still the, you know, the the claimants on the land, the processes that are happening there, they're very public.
任何人都可以读到关于他们的信息。
They're everybody you can read about them there.
那里还有一座博物馆。
There there's a there's a museum.
德班六区得到了纪念，但西点的那片土地、整个南部郊区、古德伍德、米尔内顿或西蒙镇却没有得到纪念。
There's memorialization of District 6, but there isn't memorialization of that patch of land in Sea Point or the entire Southern Suburbs or Goodwood or Milnerton or Simons Town.
你现在可以走进这些地方。
You can go into those spaces now exactly.
你可以。
You can
你现在可以走进所有这些地方，看到生活。
go into all those spaces now and see life.
是的。
Yeah.
但这是在种族区域法案实施后四十年或五十年才出现的生活。
But it's life that that is only forty years or fifty years old since the group areas act Yeah.
你知道，它被彻底改变了。
You know, changed it radically.
因此，我所做的研究常常涉及教堂，是的。
And so I often so the research I'm doing is with churches Yes.
采访这些郊区的教堂，询问他们对自己所在地区特殊历史的了解。
Interviewing churches in some of those suburbs, asking what their knowledge of their special history in those areas are.
这些故事往往涉及一些教堂，教众们在那里聚会，却几乎像患上了特殊健忘症——那些在教堂里礼拜的人，有的在那里生活了十年、五年甚至四十年，却完全不记得这个教堂在人们被强制迁离之前是什么样子。
And the stories that come out are either of churches where people are attending where they have almost like a special amnesia, like churches with amnesia where the people who go to the church have lived there for ten years or five years or forty years, but they there's no memory of what that church was in that suburb before people were forcibly removed from the area.
而在一些如今已成为高端经济社区、仍以白人为主的郊区，教堂正位于中心地带，每逢周日，你却能看到来自城市其他区域的人群前来参加礼拜，这些教堂的信徒几乎主要由有色人种构成。
And then you have other churches right in the middle of suburbs that now are predominantly they're high end economic neighborhoods, predominantly white still, and yet on a Sunday, you see groups of people traveling in from other parts of the city, and those churches are being attended almost predominantly by people of color.
这些人是在六十年代被从这些地区驱逐出去的，但他们仍回到这些教堂礼拜，因为这些地方对他们而言是纪念之地，也是家园。
And they were people who were moved from the areas back in the sixties and who still worship there because they come back to those spaces as spaces of memorial and of of home.
如果你对这种现象背后的原因毫无好奇，如果你住在教堂对面或附近，目睹了这一切，却从不追问为什么，那确实如此。
If you don't if you're not curious about why that's happening, if you live opposite that church or around and you see that happening, but you're not curious as to why Yeah.
那么你就永远不会了解你所在郊区的历史，也不会了解信仰在你社区中的历史。
Then you will never find out about the history of your suburb or the history of faith in your suburb.
但如果你带着近乎科学家般的好奇心，哪怕缺乏勇气去追随这些故事，深入探索它们与你自身故事的联系，那你只是在重复这种暴力。
But if you go there as a curious scientist almost without courage to follow those stories into your own story, then you are then you are just reenacting the violence.
你去参观博物馆，然后说：‘哦，这真有趣。’
You're going to a museum and you go, oh, that's interesting.
但你在学习了这些之后，并没有打算因此改变自己的生活方式。
But you have no intention to live any differently as a result of learning it.
所以我认为，好奇心是好的，我认为这是我们的信仰的一部分。
So I think that you have to I think that curiosity is good, and I think it's it's part of our our faith.
我认为我们需要以这种方式生活。
I think we need to live in those ways.
但是
But
尤其是那些仍然舒适地享受着我们所继承财富的人，我们必须以勇气去面对我们所发现的一切。
especially as those who are living still very comfortably with the inherited wealth that we have in that, we've gotta do it with a courage that what we discover Yeah.
这些发现将真正引领我们走向一种不同的存在方式。
Will can will actually lead us into a different way of being.
一种更忠实的回应。
A more faithful response.
我认为，对我来说，你一年前一直使用的那个词是‘忠实回应’。
I think I think for me, the the word that you kept on using a year ago for me was responding faithfully.
嗯。
Mhmm.
忠实地回应。
Responding faithfully.
因为我想我们不仅仅被呼召说‘是’。
Because I guess we're not just called yes.
我认为，与耶稣建立横向连接是如此美好、深刻且充满生命力的，因为我们确实正在被改变，能够清晰地聆听，我们活着，就是为了在这世上成为行动者。
I think there's something so beautiful and profound and just life giving with the horizontal connection to Jesus in the sense that we really are being transformed and to listen clearly, and we and we're alive so that we can be actors in this life.
对吧？
Right?
我们能够以临在、积极、有意识的身份参与这人生，看见那些破坏人形象的体系，并活出另一种生命。
And we can be present, active, intentional actors in this life to see the systems that undermine people's image bearing and to also live a different life.
你一直使用的词是：我们如何通过忠实地彼此回应来忠实地回应上帝。
And the words that you kept using was how do we respond faithfully to God by responding faithfully to one another.
你带我们上了这堂移动课堂。
You took us on this mobile classroom.
我永远不会忘记那一刻。
I will never forget that.
那种感觉就像有什么东西突然从我脸上被撕掉了，但我意识到，这仍然是上帝能为我做的最温柔的事——毕竟，那地方正对着基尔斯滕博什。
It felt like it felt like like something had just been ripped off of my face, but I realized that was still the most gentle thing that god could have ever done for me with I mean, right opposite Kirstenbosch.
对吧？
Right?
你带我们去了普罗提奥村，告诉我们关于那片土地被重新夺回的斗争。
You took us to where Proteo Village was, and you told us about how there has been that battle for reclaiming that land.
你能再给我讲讲那个故事吗？
Could you please just go back to that story a little bit for me?
因为我想，我是说，我只是想回到这一点：对空间保持觉察，了解人们的故事，这能帮助我们活出更诚实的信仰，不是吗？
And then because I because I I I wanna I mean, I I just I just wanna just go back to the idea that, like, being spatially aware, being aware of the of people's stories, it helps us to live a more honest faith, isn't it?
但你走路时似乎带着跛足，你知道吗？有些东西伤害了你。
But but it feels like you walk with a limp almost, you know, and you you something wounds you.
有些东西伤害了我，因为我意识到自己参与了这种对空间的盲目漠视。
Something wounds me because I I'm aware of my participation and this blind engagement of space.
对吧？
Right?
但它确实带来了一种真诚、谦卑和破碎感。
And but it it just creates such an an honesty and a humility and and and a brokenness.
嗯。
Yeah.
你能再回到我们当时那段经历吗？
Can you just go back to that to that time that we had?
嗯。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这又是我们城市中经常被默认接受的另一个部分。
I mean, again, that's just another part of our city that is so often just accepted.
我们有开普敦植物园。
We have Kerstenbosch Gardens.
它们是私有的。
They're private.
我喜欢去那里。
I love to go there.
我家人许多特别聚会的回忆都发生在这家私人花园里，你需要付费才能进入，周围是那种绝对令人惊叹的景色。
So many of my family's memories of doing, you know, special gatherings together are in this private garden that you paid to go into, and you're surrounded by, you know, absolutely like that.
但话说回来，那座山的阴影下，有着无与伦比的美景。
And but but, I mean, incomparable beauty right there in the the the the the shadow of the mountain.
而开普敦植物园的故事和历史讲述方式也经过精心筛选，并没有按照那片土地是如何被占有、主教府是如何变成主教府的方式来讲述。
And the way the story and the history of Kerstenbosch is told is also quite curated, and and and it's not it's not told along the lines of how that that land got to be claimed, how Bishop's Court came to be Bishop's Court.
我记得每次开车前往开普敦植物园时，都会经过一个位于这片看似不太可能的地方的小杂货店。
I remember often when I would drive towards Kerstenbosch, there's a little corner store in the in the middle of this it seems very unlikely space.
那是一片树林，接着是一个非常高端富裕的郊区，然后就出现了一个典型的街角小店，没错。
It's a wooded area and then a a very high end affluent suburb, and then there's your typical corner store Yeah.
这种小店在开普敦周边的大多数社区里，已经存在了近一百年。
That that that has been in in most neighborhoods around around Cape Town, you know, since, you know, for the last hundred years.
我总是觉得它显得格格不入。
And I always thought to myself how how out of place it seemed.
是的。
Yes.
但接着，你会继续开车去开普敦植物园，在那里度过一整天。
But then, you know, would would continue driving and go to Kerstenbosch and enjoy a day there.
然后我发现，开普敦植物园和比绍法院所在的这片区域，曾经是一个叫普罗特村的大型社区，那里的人们被强行驱逐，村庄在1960年代被推土机夷为平地，自南非实现民主自由以来，这片土地的归还诉求一直持续至今。
And then discovering that Kerstenbosch was and and Bishop's Court in that area was a a a large community of people called Proteo Village that were forcibly removed and and and that was bulldozed in in the in in nineteen sixties and that it has been an ongoing land claim that's been happening since since freedom democratic freedom came to South Africa.
你知道，我去那里时，对某个明显不同的地方感到好奇，随着时间推移，我逐渐发现了这个故事。
You know, it's that going of there I was curious about something that stood out as different in the area, and and then over time I discovered the story.
接着，我当然也了解了土地诉求的经过、社区对此的反应、围绕土地发生的冲突，包括位于核心地带的那座小小的圣公会教堂，以及它如何表明自己与土地诉求者站在一起的立场。
And then, of course, have discovered the story of the of how the land claim went, how the neighborhood responded to that, the the the conflict that happened over the land, everything from the position of the the the little Anglican church that's right there in the heart of it and how that church positions itself as a church that is in solidarity with the land claimants.
因此，我追踪了这座教堂的故事——它既包含当年被驱逐的人，也包含如今住在比绍法院的人，他们一起礼拜，但都表示希望成为支持土地诉求的教会。
And so following the story of that church that has both people who removed from the area and people who live in Bishop's Court now, yeah, who who worship together, but who have said we want to be a church in solidarity with the land claim,
以及
as
还有与当地纳税人协会、房地产开发商以及反对将土地归还原主的人们之间的关系。
well as the relationship with the ratepayers association in the area, with property developers, with people who were opposing the return of the land to the original owners.
当你了解到这一切后，你如何才能如你所说，负责任地享受这片区域的美景？因为你有经济能力，可以去花园，我可以去花园，我可以在这个区域自由行走，而不会像有些人那样被怀疑，对吧？
That's a story that then when you discover all of that, how you then get to, as you've said, enjoy responsibly the beauty of the area, how you then use your own relatively ease of of access to the place because you have money, you can go to the gardens, I can go to the gardens, I'm I'm I can walk in the area without being suspected in the way that I can I there are people yeah?
在这个我轻易就能接触到的空间里，发生了这么多事情，我该如何与那些过去无法享受这一切的人共同分享？同时，作为一个公民和纳税人，我该如何支持我们周围环境的改变？
There's just so much that happens in that space that I have easy access to how then do I enjoy that with people who have not been able to to enjoy it before, as well as be a person and a citizen and a ratepayer who support the change of environments around us.
因此，比如说，现在这片美丽的林地即将被开发。
And so we, you know, to be so for example, that area that is that is now a beautiful wooded area is going to get developed.
那么，这个区域的人们该如何支持这种开发？
And so how do the people in the area support the development of that?
这将需要一定程度地减少绿化，但这些树正是长在人们家园的废墟之上的。
That is going to require somewhat of a a degreening of the area, but the trees grew in the place of people's homes.
当然。
Sure.
那么，环境正义如何与土地正义和空间正义并存？
And so how do you what does environmental justice look like alongside land justice and spatial justice?
因此，对我来说，我认为关键是让这个故事具有多层次的、细致的复杂性。
And so for me, it's about, I think, allowing the story to be multilayered, but, like nuance.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
在各个层面都是如此。
In all different levels.
那就是开普敦植物园。
And that's so that's Kerstenbosch.
对吧？
Right?
那里正在发生这样的事情，而我就住在附近。
And that's what's happening there, and that's an area I live close by.
但如果你还记得我们做的那个移动课堂，我们一天之内带人们穿越城市，探索这座城市的各种故事、空间历史和存在痕迹，我们整个旅程的起点又是第6区，我们在之前的对话中提到过，那是城市中一个被纪念的空间。
But if you remember the the the mobile classroom that we do where we take people on these faith journeys through the city in one day, where we look at all these different stories of the city and spatial histories and presence, We started that whole journey at, again, District 6, which which we we mentioned earlier in our conversation as a somewhat of a memorialized space in the city.
这仍然是人们在观看和等待的地方。
It's one that is still people are watching and waiting.
这是城市中一个敞开的深渊，一道敞开的伤疤。
It's an open an open chasm, an open scar in the city.
这就像一道敞开的伤口。
It's like an open wound.
这是一道敞开的伤口。
It's an open wound.
你可以去那里。
You can go there.
你可以站在那里。
You can stand there.
你可以去博物馆。
You can go to the museum.
原来那里的教堂和清真寺仍然存在。
The churches and the mosques that were originally there are still there.
所以，大地仿佛在哭泣，你知道，显示出这里还没有任何生机。
And so the the it's like the ground cries out, you know, showing there's no life here yet.
这里曾经是有生命的。
There were there was life.
这里曾经有社区。
There was community.
这里曾经有邻里。
There was neighborhood.
它被摧毁了，而现在它在等待。
It was destroyed, and and and it's waiting.
它在等待见证。
It's waiting to see.
因此，这是城市中一个被纪念的空间。
And and so that's a memorialized space in the city.
对我来说，凯尔斯滕博什除了那家小小的便利店之外，其他地方都已不复存在。
For me, Kirstenbosch hadn't been except for that one little corner store.
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对我来说，克莱蒙特、哈尔菲尔德村，还有我之前提到的那些其他郊区，都不是纪念空间。
For me, Claremont and Halffield Village and, as I've said, all those other suburbs that I mentioned are not they're not memorial spaces.
所以当我们回到第6区，重新开始我们的旅程时，这对我们意味着什么？
And so when we go back and we start start our journey at District 6, what does that mean for us?
我们是否总是等待别人来命名它为纪念地，抓住那段历史并讲给我们听？还是我们愿意带着我之前提到的那份好奇心，生活在城市的其他区域，去发掘正在发生的事情，从而拥抱更美好的未来？是的。
Are we always just waiting for somebody to name it as a memorial and hold on to that history and tell it to us or are we willing to to live in in the other parts of the city with that curiosity that I spoke about before to uncover what's happening so that we can embrace the better future Yeah.
这样我们才能拥抱土地索赔者重新在那里建立社区的景象，而不是因为几棵树会被砍掉之类的事情就反对它。
So that we can embrace what it's gonna look like for the land claimants to build their community there again and not oppose it because a few trees are gonna get cut down or or, you know, something like that.
作为一个希望生活，并让我的孩子在未来以自由、解放的方式生活的人，如何有意识地活在这样的故事中？
How to live consciously in that story as a person who wants to live and have my children living into the future in a liberated and a free way.
是的。
Yeah.
卡罗琳，我记得当我们和班级一起去的时候，就在我和朋友决定不见面之前。
And, Caroline, I remember that when we went with with the class, I think just before my friend and I, we decided to meet no.
实际上，我们当时正在赞诺布洛姆散步，就在CPUT正对面，然后在校园对面那个巨大的停车场里，有一面墙。
Actually, were talk we were taking a walk in in Zonoblom just opposite CPUT, and then there was this wall right in that big massive parking lot across from the campus.
然后有一面墙，我认为就在前几天，一些被强制从第六区驱逐的家庭曾在那里写下他们的故事。
Then there was a wall where, I believe there had been a memorial a few a few days before that where different families that had been forcibly removed from District 6 went there and wrote their stories.
墙上贴满了大量的纸张，比如埃弗伦德一家，五口人，我们曾住在某某街。
Like, there were, like, tons of papers on the wall where mister Everends this Everends family, family of five, we lived in such and such a street.
我们曾在这里。
We were here.
这是某某夫人。
And, this is missus so and so.
我和我的家人被迁到了某某地方。
I my I my family and I were moved to such and such a place.
我们曾在这里。
We were here.
这让我感到非常震撼，但同时，这也是一个重要的归乡时刻，因为我感觉现在我终于亲眼见到了这一切。
And, it was so it was so jarring for me, but at it was it was both, an important homecoming moment for me because I felt like now I have I've seen this.
我正在看到这座城市，因为这些故事如今都贴在这面纪念墙上，我相信第六区博物馆在为曾经生活在这里的社区营造这段纪念时刻中发挥了作用。
I'm seeing the city because you're seeing the stories all plastered on this memorial memorial wall right now, and I believe that District six Museum, had been part of creating that that that time of remembrance for the community that had been there.
对丽莎和我来说，站在那里是一个非常重要的时刻。
And, it was a very important moment for for for Lisa and I to stand there.
作为一名科萨族女性，我也是这个故事的外来者。
And as a Xhosa woman, I am I'm also a visitor to that story.
对吧？
Right?
我正在阅读另一个群体的故事——有色开普社区。
And I'm reading another community, the colored colored Cape colored community.
那是他们的故事，那里有他们的记忆，对吧？我正在走近这个故事。
That's their that's their that's their that there's a story there, right, that I lean into.
当然，当你观察这片土地时，就像你所说的，这是一种城市断裂。
And, obviously, when you look on the landscape, like you said, it's an urban fracture.
我们甚至踏上了那片土地。
We even walked on the land.
我记得和朋友们一起，我们站在一处地方，那里看起来曾经是房屋基部的一片农场，这让人感到非常震撼。
I remember with my friends, we stood in a part where we it looked like it had been a farm at the base of a house, And that was quite a hectic thing.
最近，我去那里拜访时，发现墙空了。
And then recently, I went to visit there, and the wall was empty.
一切都消失了，我哭了。
Everything was erased, and I wept.
我给我的朋友打了电话。
I I called my friend.
我给丽莎打了电话，说：丽莎，他们把故事拿走了。
I called Lisa, and I said, Lisa, they've taken the stories away.
他们把故事拿走了，我不知道该怎么办。
They've taken the story, and I and I didn't know what to do.
我对此感到非常沮丧。
I was so devastated by that.
因为我认为，对我来说，这归结为一个问题：当我们不深入这些地方的故事时，究竟失去了什么？
And I because I I think for me, it comes down to this question of what's at stake, you know, when we when we when we don't lean into these stories of these places.
我们不禁要问：究竟失去了什么？
We're like, what's at stake?
我的意思是，我记得你曾经告诉我们， guys，当你们听说社区里有特别的规划事项时，你们必须去参加。
I mean, I remember you even told us, guys, when you hear that there are special planning things in your neighborhood, you have to go.
对吧？
Right?
因为我的最后一个问题是：我们现在该如何生活？
Because because my my final question to you is how now do we live?
但请回过头想想。
But go back.
你想
Think you want
但我觉得，这很有趣，因为那个纪念碑被移除了，你亲身经历了这件事，为此你感到难过。
But I think well, that's so it's interesting because that memorial was removed, and and and you've you experienced that, and you you were sad over that.
但如果你现在试着去查明原因。
But if you now find try and find out why.
因为城市一直在变化，而城市和景观的变迁本身并不一定是坏事。
Because cities are changing all the time, and changing cities and changing landscapes are not inherently bad.
随着时间的推移，它们一直在变化，新的事物不断发生，我认为我们常常需要拥抱新事物。
Throughout time, they've changed, and and and new things have happened, and I think we need to embrace new things often.
所以，如果你去探究那些东西被移除的原因，你可能会发现，正是这些人正在计划新的事物。
So if you discover why those were removed, you may discover that there's a new thing being planned by those very people.
你并不知道，也有可能它们是被暴力拆除的。
You don't know, or it could have been removed violently.
如果克尔斯滕博什那个街角小店被拆除了，那我是不是就再也无法看到任何提醒我过去事物、激发我对往昔想象的东西了？
If that if that corner store gets taken down in Kerstenbosch, do I then no longer have something to remind me of or or to to spark my imagination about what was before?
或者，举个例子，想想温伯格，那里曾经发生过强制搬迁，但现在温伯格被称为一个‘抵达城市’。
Or, for example, I mean, if you think about Weinberg, there were forced removals in Weinberg, but now Weinberg is what's called an arrival city.
有大量来自其他国家的人来到开普敦生活，这里是一个人们落脚、在城市中找到安身之所的空间。
There's so many people who travel from other countries to come and live in Cape Town, and it's a space where people land and find place in the city to live.
所以他们对这片区域并没有历史上的所有权。
So they don't have a historical claim to the area.
但如果二十年后温伯格发生变化，驱逐了那些将温伯格视为落脚点、开始在此安家的人，如果这里被高档化，这些人被赶走，温伯格这段近期的历史就会被抹去。
But if Weinberg changes in twenty years time and pushes people who who who find Weinberg as a place to land and and start making home in the city, if that gets gentrified and and those people are moved out, this recent history of Weinberg gets erased.
所以这些事情一直在变化，它持续变动着，这本身并不一定是坏事，除非某些东西被抹去了。
So so these things are moving the whole time, and so, like, it keeps moving, and it's not inherently bad except if something is is erased.
因此，如果某物曾经存在，弄清楚它为何不复存在，就是这段好奇而勇敢的探索的一部分，我想这么说。
So then so then go and if something was there, finding out why it's no longer there is part of that that curious and courageous journey, I would say.
或者，就拿我们现在所在的伍德斯托克来说，我记得曾经在这里的停车场停车，然后下车去参加一场音乐活动之类的。
Or, you know, in Woodstock where we are meeting now, I remember parking in a parking lot and getting out of my car to go to a, you know, a music event or something.
当我站在地面上时，看到地面上有马赛克瓷砖，我才意识到自己正站在某人的家——曾经是某人的家——的原址上。
And as as I stood on the ground, there were mosaic tiles, and I realized I was standing in somebody's home, what would have been somebody's home.
但如今，那个停车场已经不存在了。
And and and but yet now that parking lot doesn't exist anymore.
它已经被建成了其他东西。
It's been built on.
所以，这个提醒物如今已被覆盖了。
So now that reminder has been built over.
那么，我的新提醒物和新启示又是什么？它们揭示了这片空间的历史，但更重要的是，现在正在发生什么？
So what then become my new reminders and my new invitations as to what the history of the space is but what the what what is what is happening now?
现在谁能把这里当作家，谁又不能把这里当作家呢？
Who who's who is making it home now and who can't make it home now?
或者，那些住在街上的那个人，现在正在经历什么？
Or who is like, what what is happening with the person living on the street there?
他们能讲述什么样的故事？
What stories are they able to tell?
有哪些新的人来到这个空间？
What are the new people arriving in the space?
他们对这个空间有什么主张？
And what are their claims to it?
有非常多不同的方式。
There there are many, many different ways.
我的意思是，遗产领域的人称之为非物质遗产，即不再是指有形的建筑或空间，而是居住在其中的人们所能讲述的故事，以及他们赋予这些故事的价值。
I mean, people in heritage call it intangible heritage, where it's no longer the physical building or the space, but it's the stories that are able to be told by the people in the space and what value they they put on that.
所以，是的，再次强调，如果我能用这一点来过渡到我非常非常热衷的一个话题，那就是我们如何解读经文。
So, yeah, again and that for me, if I can use that to kind of bridge into something that I'm very, very passionate about, is how we then read scripture.
我能不能这么做呢？因为我觉得，你小时候有没有那种圣经，里面有很多地图，我小时候就有，我对那些地图着迷不已。
Is that can can I do because because I feel like I mean, I don't know if you had one of those Bibles I had growing up where there are all those maps in the Bible, and I used to be fascinated by those.
但那些是二维地图。
But they were two d maps.
一张是耶稣时代的巴勒斯坦地图。
They were a map of Palestine in the time of Jesus.
一张是保罗旅行所经海域的地图，还有那些所有地方，我都对它们着迷。
They were a map of the ocean where Paul traveled and all of those things, and I was fascinated by them.
但它们都是平面地图，而你提到的是与上帝的垂直关系，以及与世界的水平关系。
But they were flat maps, and I think so you speak about the vertical relationship with God and the horizontal relationship with the world.
我觉得我们对地图的关联更多是水平的——我们只看到空间和地点，视其为理所当然，然后在其中穿行。
I feel like we we have quite a horizontal relationship with maps where we just see space and place, and we take it for granted, and we move around it.
但我们缺乏一种多层次的横向分析，去从社会空间乃至地缘政治的角度理解地图上正在发生什么。
But we don't have this layered horizontal analysis of what's happening in the map from a sociospatial and and and almost like geopolitical point of view, whatever.
所以，我们可能会看一张加利利、耶路撒冷、犹太、约旦河和撒玛利亚的地图，然后想，好吧。
So we so we might look at a map of of Galilee and Jerusalem and Judea and the the River Jordan and Samaria, and we may go, okay.
耶稣曾在这几个地方来回走动。
Well, Jesus moved around these places.
但如果我们不了解这些地方在耶稣时代各自的政治含义及其形成过程，我们只会简单地想：哦，他曾在加利利，后来又去了耶路撒冷。
But if we don't have that layered political map of what each one of those places meant and how it came to be in the time of Jesus, we're always just going to be going, oh, well, he was in he was in Galilee, and then he was in Jerusalem.
是的。
Yeah.
这看起来像是中立的，但实际上绝非中立。
And it's going to be neutral, whereas it definitely wasn't neutral.
每当他们说‘拿撒勒人耶稣’时，其实是在暗示——我有时会鼓励开普敦的人们从这种语境去理解，有人曾对我说：在开普敦，拿撒勒就相当于布利克斯特克。
Every time they said Jesus of Nazareth, they were saying I mean, I I sometimes encourage we we encourage people in Cape Town to do this contextually, and some people said to me, well, in in Cape Town, Nazareth would be Blickistork.
那就是伍德斯托克地区的人们被迁离家园后所去的地方。
It would be where people from Woodstock so in their story, they were saying where people from Woodstock were moved when they could no longer live in the area.
当时这个区域正在经历绅士化。
They would the gentrification was happening in this area.
布鲁姆韦尔。
Brumwell.
比如，伍德斯托克的布鲁梅尔街，以及布利基斯多普和沃尔维里特剧院，都是人们被迁往的资源匮乏之地。
So Brumwell Street in Woodstock, for example, and then Blickiesdorp and Volverritheater is created as a space where people are moved to and they are under resourced.
这些地方基本上什么都没有。
So and at well, they're they're they're places where there is there is nothing.
人们被安置在远离权力中心——也就是决策发生地和他们原有生活所在地——的偏远营地。
There's camped places where people are are are put far, far, far away from the scent from from, yeah, the center of power where decisions are made as well as where their life was.
如果在耶稣时代的地理环境中也发生了这样的事，那么谁住在耶路撒冷？为什么？
Had that happened in in in the in the geography of Jesus' time, who was living in Jerusalem and why?
谁住在耶路撒冷附近？为什么？
Who was living close to Jerusalem and why?
谁住在拿撒勒？为什么？
And who was living in Nazareth and why.
因此，当人们称耶稣为‘拿撒勒人耶稣’时，是谁在这样称呼他？他们为什么这样称呼他？
And so when Jesus is Jesus of Nazareth, who calls him Jesus of of Nazareth, and why are they calling him that?
如果拿《路加福音》全书为例，用荧光笔标出书中每一个提到的地理地点，你会发现有明确命名的城镇，也有未命名的城镇。
And then when I mean, if you just take, for example, the whole book of Luke and you take a highlighter and you highlight every geographical place throughout the book of Luke, there are named towns and there are unnamed towns.
有村庄和城市。
There are villages and cities.
有些建筑是寺庙，有些建筑是会堂，还有些建筑是房屋。
There are, you know, there are buildings that are temples and there are buildings that are synagogues and there are buildings that are houses.
你可以从中了解到更多关于耶稣时代发生的事情，从而理解他为什么在某个地方以某种方式行事，而在另一个地方又以不同的方式行事。
You can just you can just learn so much more about what was happening in Jesus' time, and then you can understand perhaps why he's acting in a certain way in one place and a certain way in another place.
如果你带着勇气和好奇心，你可以顺着这些故事去探究，它们在不同时间点对耶稣和不同群体意味着什么。
And then perhaps if you're curious with courage, you can you can follow those stories into what that was meaning for him and for the various different groups of people at any different time in the in the script reading.
因此，对我而言，既要带着我的圣经这样做，也要带着我的城市这样做。
So for me, to do that with with my bible and then to do that with my city.
如果我坐在一张耶稣时代的巴勒斯坦地图前，一张种族隔离时期开普敦及其特殊规划的地图，一张当今开普敦的地图——看看谁住在哪儿、为什么住那儿，再结合这段经文。
So if I were to sit with a map of of of Palestine in the time of Jesus, a map of Cape Town during apartheid and apartheid special planning, a map of Cape Town now and who lives where and why, and then this the text.
当我读到耶稣和门徒坐在船上，渡过水面，抵达革尼撒勒，然后下船时。
And I read Jesus in the boat with the disciples, and they cross the water, and they go to Gennesaret, and they get out the boat.
接着我查阅革尼撒勒发生了什么，他们遇到了一个被鬼附、住在坟茔里的人。
And then I read up what's happening in what in in Gennesaret, and they meet the the the man who who they who is named as possessed living in the graves.
然后我查阅了一些历史，发现整个革尼撒勒地区都被罗马军队摧毁了，经历了长达数十年的暴力占领，那里发生了大量的谋杀和强奸。
And then I read up a little bit of history, and I discovered the entire region of Gennesaret was had been decimated by the Roman army, had been absolutely had had, like, decades of of violent occupation, you know, murders and and rapes happening in the area.
因此，在革尼撒勒的墓地意味着某种特殊的意义，而这个人就住在这样的墓地里。
And so a graveyard in Gennesaret meant something, and this man was living in this graveyard.
当有人问他：‘你叫什么名字？’
And then when he gets asked, what is your name?
他回答说：‘我名叫军团’，而军团就是指罗马军队。
He says legion, and legion is the Roman legion, which is the Roman armies.
所以他实际上是在说：我被恶魔附身了。
And so he's literally saying I am demonized.
我被一支军队附身了，但这不仅仅是一支中立的灵体军队——你可以开始探索，在那个地方曾发生过大规模的帝国暴力，而这个人如今正活在这些创伤之中。
I'm possessed by an army, but it's not just a neutral army of of spirits that like, you could start to explore that there was huge amounts of of of of of empire violence that had happened in that place that this man is now living with.
你谈到了创伤后应激反应。
You speak about the the post traumatic.
所以没有人否认，一个人身上可能存在的灵性表现以及心理健康问题。
So no one's denying, you know, a spiritual manifestation of things in a person and and and to the the mental health.
基督有能力施行奇迹，使人从这种状态中得自由。
And the ability of Christ to to to the miracle of of of of setting someone free from that.
你完全不否认这一点，但你可以对此有更深层的探索。
You don't deny that at all, but you can have a much deeper curiosity about it.
如果你以这种空间性的视角来阅读，是的。
If you read it with that spatial reading and that that yeah.
圣经的阅读。
Of the bible.
然后，如果你能——不再赘述这一点——但有勇气去问：这对我们现在意味着什么？
And then if you can, again, not going on about this, but have the courage to then say, well, what does that mean for us now here?
我们如何与几代人积累的暴力所造成的‘附着’共处？
How are we how are we living with, yeah, the the the the possession of generations of of violence?
基督的到来，你又回到了你开头关于自由的论述。
And what is Christ you're coming back to your opening introduction about about freedom.
我们得自由是为了自由，于是自由就不再仅仅是个人从罪恶生活中得释放，你还可以开始探索：在基督里，个人、家庭、社区乃至城市和国家层面的解放与自由是什么样子。
It is for freedom that we are set free or for you know, then freedom becomes way more than just one person being set free from from a life of sin, you you then can start to explore what individual family family sized, community sized, and then citywide and and and and countrywide liberation and freedom looks like in Christ.
当然。
Absolutely.
而且我要说，天啊，这真是太美了，非常感谢你。
And I'm gonna I oh, what a beauty I mean, thank you so much.
这太美了，我很高兴你提到这一点，回到了我们如何阅读文本、如何阅读城市这个根本问题上。
That was so beautiful, and I love that you you brought in you brought it back to actually how it starts with how we read the text and how we read the city.
对吧？
Right?
因为这正是我们想做的。
Because that's what we wanna do.
我们希望成为忠实地阅读文本和我们所处环境的人，以便回应：如今我们该如何生活？如今我们该如何在此处行动？
We wanna be faithful readers of the text and our context in order to respond to how now do we live how now do we respond here.
卡罗琳，非常感谢你能坐下来为我们深入剖析这些内容。
Caroline, I'm just so thankful that you could sit and and break this down for us.
我们现在正身处伍德斯托克，这里人来人往，热闹非凡。
We are right now in Woodstock where there's a bustle and there's a hustle.
我爱伍德斯托克，因为它既有古老的气息，又充满新意。
I love Woodstock because it feels like there's something old with something new.
而且，再次强调，这里有着士绅化和社区变迁的故事。
And, again, there's a story of gentrification and communities that are there.
所以我才想在这里和你交谈，因为对我来说，这同样是一段持续不断的揭示之旅，渴望忠实地回应耶稣。
And that's why I wanted to talk to you here because this, for me, also, is a constant ongoing ongoing, rather, journey of unveiling and wanting to respond faithfully to Jesus.
我非常感恩，只想在此结束对话时，请你让我们感受到，我们该如何参与这种集体的医治。
And I'm just so thankful, and I just wanted maybe land the conversation here to say, perhaps you could you could just also leave us with the sense of how we participate in that collective healing.
我特别喜欢一点：上帝不只是来医治我们个人，你谈到的是一种集体的医治——上帝并非只想私下让我们感觉良好，而是要爱我们、一起医治我们，帮助我们成为这美好医治之约的管理者。
I love the fact that God doesn't just come to heal us as individuals, but you're talking about a sense of collective healing that God is not wanting to privately make us okay, but he wants to love on us and heal us together and help us to be administrators of this beautiful covenant of healing.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这里有太多层次了。
So, I mean, there's so many there's so many layers.
我认为我们常常直接跳到‘我们必须做点什么’，而行动总是这个循环的一部分：我们生活、我们观察、我们命名、我们分析、我们神学化、我们梦想一个不同的世界，但不能就此止步。
I think often we do skip straight into like, we've gotta do something, and and action always has to be part of this cycle of we we live, we see, we name, we analyze, we theologize, we dream about a different world, and then we can't just stop there.
我们必须投身于这种新的方式。
We've got to act into into that that new way.
但有时，行动意味着进入故事，意识到正如医学界常说的：首先，不要造成伤害。
But sometimes acting is is going into the story and realizing almost like like the the the medical world will say first, do no harm.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，要意识到我们如何造成伤害，如何在我们的社区中生活，以及我们在社区中把谁视为‘他者’。
So realizing how we do harm, how we live in us in our neighborhoods, and who we other in our neighborhoods.
那么，如何看待那些我们觉得在我们的社区中不安全或具有威胁性的人呢？
So what does it mean to look look at those who we perceive as being unsafe in our or threatening in our neighborhoods?
当你知道一个无家可归的人会被没收财物、被驱逐时，你该如何应对而不报警呢？
What does it look like to not call the cops on a person who is homeless because you know that that they will have their belongings removed from them and they will they will go they you know?
那么，以‘首先，不要造成伤害’的方式回应街头的无家可归者，意味着什么？
So what does it look like to respond to the homeless person in my street in a first do no harm way?
不鄙视那个翻我垃圾的人，这意味着什么？是的。
What does it mean to not despise the person who goes through my my my refuse Yeah.
认为那个人在制造冰毒，但实际上我要确保我的垃圾桶里没有碎玻璃。
As being this person who's making meth, but actually being like, I'm gonna make sure there's no glass broken in my dustbin.
如果我有衣服要扔，它们不应该和那些不堪入目的东西放在一起。
There's no there's there's there's if there's clothing that I want to throw away, it's not actually next to unmentionable things.
然后还要把它们打包好。
And and then but actually to package it.
这，我说了，这不是正义。
So so that that's I mean, that's not justice.
这只是先做到不伤害。
That's first doing no harm.
那么，我该如何与那些不是南非公民、却试图在这里开始新生活的人相处呢？
So or whether it means to how do I how I relate to the person who who is not a South African citizen and is is attempting to to start a life here.
比如，先做到不伤害，这会是什么样子？
Like like, what does it look like to first do no harm?
但正义的根源可以基于此。
But there can be roots of justice based in that.
对我而言，问题是：我该如何以慈悲的方式生活？
And then for me, it's how do how do I live compassionately?
比如，我该如何追随耶稣的足迹，明白耶稣并非中立，耶稣并非地理上中立，耶稣始终清楚自己身在何处、为何在此，以及因所处之地而发生的一切。
Like, how do I follow in the footsteps of Jesus, understanding that Jesus was not neutral, that Jesus was not geographically neutral, that Jesus always knew where he was, why he was there, and what was going on because of where they were.
是的。
Yes.
因此，当我对自己在某个空间中的身体有了新的认知后，便努力像耶稣那样明智行事。
And so taking that that newly found knowledge that I might have about my body in a space and then trying to be wise like Jesus is.
于是我们意识到，在面对不公时，我们常常鄙视怜悯与慈善。
And so then realizing that we can't we can't I think often in injustice thinking, we despise mercy and charity.
但不，我们必须心怀怜悯，必须乐于施助。
But, no, we have to be merciful, and we have to be charitable.
因为我们要思考的是：慷慨究竟意味着什么？
Because we to because because there's so then it's working about how like, what does generosity look like?
而在我们彼此慷慨相助时，若能理解我们在世界中所占据的空间，或许就能培育出关系的种子，促成相互依存，而非单向的、具有破坏性的施舍。
And then in our generosity with one another, understanding what spaces we occupy in our world, can we hopefully have the the seeds of relationship that could bring about interdependence and not just damaging top down giving.
接着，你要追随仁慈的故事，追溯到导致这种仁慈需求的不公，也就是慈善之所以必要的根源，没错。
And and and and then you follow the story of mercy into the injustice that has caused the mercy, the the the the the the need for them for the charity Yeah.
从根本上说。
In the first place.
于是，你开始理解那些系统和决策。
And so then you start to to to understand the the the systems, the decisions.
因此，我想说，在你的生活中，始终要思考：你在哪里拥有影响力？谁在决定你所影响的那些领域的事物？
And so then it's about I would say, always think in your life where where do you have influence and who's making the decisions about the places where you have influence.
那么，你是否需要去了解谁在管理你的教会，谁在决定教会建筑的使用方式？如果这些决定教会建筑使用方式的人，从未接触过关于空间与场所的神学，你又该如何帮助他们理解这一点？
So do you need to get into find out who's running your church and who's making decisions about how your church buildings are used and if the people who are making the decisions about how the church buildings are used haven't engaged with a theology of space and place, then how could you help them do that?
或者，你能否加入负责维护建筑的团队，帮助注入一些关于我们在修缮花园或屋顶上投入多少资源的思考？
Or could you join the team that looks after the buildings and and help infuse some of the thinking around how much we spend to fix the garden or the roof?
我谈的是一个资源充足的教会建筑，没错。
I'm talking about about a well resourced church building Yeah.
或者我们是否启动这个建筑项目，以及筹集多少资金来购买这块新地产，是的。
Or whether we start this building project or not or how much we money we raise to get this new property Yeah.
随便吧。
Whatever.
你是回避进入这些空间，因为这不属于你的领域，还是开始对拥有对城市平安有益的、向公众开放的神圣教堂空间产生热情？
Do you do you shy away from being in those spaces because that's not your thing, or do you start to get passionate about what it could look like to have sacred church spaces that are publicly available to for the shalom of the city.
城市的平安。
The shalom of the city.
是的。
Yes.
如果你对这一点感到兴奋，是的。
And if you're excited about that Yeah.
那么你可能需要参与到做决策的地方去，因为迄今为止一直在做决策的人们缺乏这种想象力，没有对这一点的神学想象力，也许他们既不好奇也不勇敢，但如果你介入进来，提出一些富有洞察力的问题，比如：‘为什么我们能接受我们的建筑只在周三晚上和周日早上使用？’
Then maybe you need to get involved in a place where decisions are made because the people who up to this point have been making the decisions haven't had a special imagination, haven't had a theological imagination for that and and are maybe not curious or courageous or or would be if you just came in and brought in and and brought and asked some curious questions about it like, oh, why do we why are we okay with our building only being used on a Wednesday night and a Sunday morning?
你知道吗？
You know?
或者，你知道吗，我们想在这个社区中成为怎样的见证？
Or, you know, what is what what witness do we wanna be in this neighborhood?
你有没有问过你的教会、家人和朋友：我们真的相信我们的社区吗？还是我们只相信我们的房子，或者我们的教堂？
Could you be asking your church and your family and the people that you're friends with, do we really believe in our neighborhood, or do we or do we believe in our house and and or our our church house?
那么，我们是否愿意跨越整个城市去一个位于别人社区的教会，却从不思考这样的教会
So do are we okay to travel across the city to go to a church that's in somebody else's neighborhood, and we're not thinking about how that church
这个教会
How that church
对那个社区产生了怎样的影响？
impact is impacts that neighborhood?
还是我只满足于上下班往返，回家后躲进自己的小天地？
Or am I okay to just travel to work and back again and just come home and escape into my home?
还是我在意的是：我们能否成为对社区充满兴趣和热情的人？
Or do I care about like, can we become people who are very interested and excited in our neighborhoods?
但不仅仅局限于我们自己的社区这个泡泡，而是关注我们的社区以及与之有联系的其他社区，因为人们在这些社区之间流动，你知道，在封锁期间，我们看到了许多令人振奋的社区行动网络团体，人们愿意说：我们想照顾邻舍，但我们意识到，如果我们只在富裕社区内部彼此照顾，就永远不会了解如何关怀城市其他地方的人，以及如何做到这一点。
But then not just our neighborhoods as the bubble, but our neighborhoods and the neighborhoods they're in relationship with because of of the way people move between those two neighborhoods and what, you know, I think during lockdown, we saw a lot of very exciting things happen with community action network groups and and people who were willing to say, we wanna look after our neighbor, but we realize my neighbor in this affluent neighborhood, if we just keep on caring for each other, we're not going to to find out about how we can care for people across the city and then how we can yeah.
所以我的意思是，这其中有太多内容了。
So that I mean, there's just a lot.
是的，确实如此。
And and so there yeah.
正如我所说，我们有太多方式可以忠实地生活。
There's so many ways we can live, as I said, faithfully.
忠实地。
Faithfully.
但我认为很重要的一点是，弄清楚是谁在决定你居住的地方，试着去更多了解这些决策，然后设法影响这些决策的制定。
But I think a big one is is find out who's making decisions about where you live and see if you can somehow learn more about that and then and then influence how those decisions are made.
是的。
Yeah.
做一个积极的公民。
Being a being an active citizen.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我们真的需要列一个清单，把这些事情明确出来并让大家都能接触到。
I think we actually need to literally, like, make a list of those things and make them accessible.
卡罗琳，我们刚刚进行了一场极其精彩的对话。
Caroline, we have just had, like, the most incredible conversation.
我真的很会认真思考这些内容。
I'm really gonna be mulling over these things, seriously.
所以我们绕了一圈回来。
So we've circled around.
我一直想说这句话，因为没人说过，但我又不想显得太做作。
Been dying to say this because my classy nobody says it.
所以我们又绕回了这一点，而你刚刚给了我们如此具体而美好的行动步骤。
So so we circled around to this, and you've just left us with such beautiful practical steps.
我真的想衷心感谢你抽出时间与我们交流。
I really wanna say thank you so much for taking this time to be with us.
也感谢你的友谊，我的朋友。
And also just for your friendship, my friend.
我非常享受向你学习的过程，尤其是因为你是一位白人女性，同时也愿意向他人学习。
I've just enjoyed learning from you, especially because you're a white woman who's also also wants to learn from other people.
还有，你对城市中黑人和棕色人种群体的立场与有意为之的态度，以及你朝着那些你本可回避的事物所做出的行动。
Also, your positionality and your intentionality also towards black and brown bodies in the city and your movement towards those things you could shy away from.
我真的很想为此向你致以敬意，也非常感谢你允许我打扰你，让你坐下来和我交谈。
I really wanna honor you for that, and thank you so much for allowing me to inconvenience you and get you to come sit down with me.
非常感谢你，卡罗琳。
Thank you so much, Caroline.
荣幸之至。
Pleasure.
是的。
Yeah.
能和你在一起真是太好了。
It's wonderful to be with you.
非常感谢你。
Thank you so much.
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