CD169：本·考夫曼——比特币守护者——多重签名钱包

我认为普通人对单签钱包的担忧被过分夸大了。

And I think the concerns for the average person over single sig are probably drummed up way too high.

如果你查看硬件钱包丢失的实际数据，绝大多数情况下——我们很少见到盗窃案例。

I mean, if you look at, like, actual numbers on hardware wallet loss, the the great majority like, there's very few cases that we've seen of theft.

人们遇到的主要问题是操作失误导致备份保管不当。

The majority of issues that people have is people making mistake and not securing their backup properly.

所以只要把助记词离线保存（最好用钢制备份），99%的情况下资产都会安全无虞且难以被查封。

So if you actually secure those seed words offline and ideally put them in steel, 99% of situations, those funds will remain yours and they'll be very hard to seize.

就像必须有人真的闯进你家，强迫你交出来一样。

Like someone will have to actually come into your house and compel you to hand them over.

对。

Yeah.

大部分风险来自，比如说，社会工程攻击，但如果你只用单密钥的话，丢失的可能性就很小，对吧？

Most of the risk is, let's say, the social engineering attacks, but it's very unlikely that you'll lose it if you're doing even just single key, right?

如果你操作得当，通常是非常安全的，对吧？

If you're doing it well, you're generally very secure, right?

你需要遵循基本规则，对吧？

You need to follow general rules, right?

比如，就是别轻信别人，但他们可能很容易说服你交出Coinbase账户密码之类的。

Like, just don't trust people, but then they could as easily convince you to give them the password to your Coinbase account or whatever.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

当你说社会工程学时，就像如果有人发邮件假装来自Ledger，让你在网页上输入助记词，他们就能卷走你的钱。

When you when you say social engineering, it's like, if someone emails you and pretends to be from Ledger and tells you to enter your seed words onto a web page, they can take your money.

别那么做。

Don't do that.

比如，自己

Like, own

是啊。

Yeah.

你

You

拥有即是耻辱。

have Which is shame.

水平。

Level.

对。

Yeah.

总之不要轻易相信别人。

Just don't trust people in general.

比如，不要轻信邮件或短信。

Like, just don't trust emails or text messages.

就是别相信这些。

Like, don't trust them.

即使看起来像官方消息，也要用常识判断。

Even if it looks official, just use common sense.

如果它索要收据或制造紧迫感，那很可能是骗局。

If it asks you for your receipt or tries to create any urgency, then it's most likely scam.

比如先上网查查，等几天看看是否有你信任的人证实确实存在问题，但别被恐慌情绪左右。

Like go on the internet, wait a few days, see if there is really people that you trust that are saying that, okay, there is really an issue, but don't give in to the panic.

对吧？

Right?

骗子最常用的手段就是让你惊慌失措，因为人一慌就会犯错。

So what scammers will try to do most is try to make you panic because when you panic, you make mistakes.

是啊。

Yeah.

深呼吸。

Take a deep breath.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

确实。

Exactly.

深呼吸。

Take a deep breath.

别太紧张。

Don't stress about it.

试着冷静地解决问题。

Just try to figure things out, but calmly.

嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

具体来说，硬件钱包的美妙之处在于它能提供一个非常简单的建议：如果你使用硬件钱包，备份助记词时务必直接输入到硬件钱包里。

And and specifically, like, the beauty of hardware wallets is it allows you to have this very easy recommendation, which is if if if you're using a hardware wallet, only enter your seed words, your backup words directly into the hardware wallet.

99%的保护场景中，骗子通常会试图诱使你在网页输入、回复邮件或将其填入电报群聊等。

99% of situations that protects you, the scammers are tech are usually trying to get you to enter it into a web page, reply to an email, put it into a telegram chat or something like that.

硬件钱包存在的根本原因在于它本该存储你的私钥，而非电脑。

The whole reason the hardware wallet exists is because it's supposed to be where your your private keys are held instead of on the computer.

因此你只应将其存入硬件钱包——唯一的例外是助记词备份的美妙之处：当Bitcoin Keeper、Coldcard或Ledger消失时，你仍可在其他钱包恢复资产。

So you it wanna only into your hardware wallet with the one exception being the beauty of seed backups and then being interoperable is if Bitcoin Keeper disappears or if Coldcard disappears or if Ledger disappears, you can then go and recover your funds in another wallet.

这种情况下，你可能需要自主在Inspiron或其他设备上操作。

And in that situation, you might be entering in Inspiron on your own accord or whatever.

这正是助记词最酷的特性之一。

That's one of the coolest parts about seed phrases.

现在回到多重签名话题。

Now back to multisig.

多重签名另一个让我感兴趣的点是——

The other piece of multisig that is interesting to me.

所以我的建议总是：先从单签开始，熟悉单签操作。

So so for me, like when I do recommendations to people, it's like, start with single sig, get comfortable with single sig.

这对99%的用户和99%的威胁模型来说都是最佳选择。

It's the best it's great for 99% of users and 99% of threat models.

所谓威胁模型是指：你需要防范的对象是谁？

And when I say threat models, I'm saying, who are you trying to protect yourself against?

你必须建立威胁模型。

You have to threat model.

这是个人责任问题，也让所有事情都变得更复杂些。

This is personal responsibility, which makes it'll everything a little bit more difficult.

但你试图防范的是谁？

But who are you trying to protect yourself against?

谁可能会试图夺走你的比特币？

Who might try and take your Bitcoin from you?

你试图防范哪些情况？

And what situations are you trying to protect against?

所以我喜欢单签，尤其喜欢带密码短语的单签。

So I like single sig, and I really like single sig with pass rays.

增加

Adds

一个

a

一点额外的复杂性。

little bit more complexity of it.

确保你确实把密码短语记录在某个地方。

Make sure you actually record your pass rays somewhere.

我记了，而且存在与助记词不同的地方，因为你的记忆可能会因头部受伤而受损。

I did and somewhere different than your seed because your memory, you can get hit in the head.

你可能会丧失记忆。

You can lose your memory.

那也会成为问题。

That becomes an issue as well.

别试图靠记忆来记东西。

Don't try and memorize things.

嗯。

Mhmm.

除非是矮个子同伴，比如在过边境的时候。

Except for short peers, if you're, like, crossing a border or something.

多签机制，我真的很推荐组织使用。

Multisig, I really like for organizations.

我特别推荐公众人物使用。

I really like for public figures.

我认为特别适合地理分布式的多签方案。

I think specifically geographically distributed multisig.

但作为父母，多签机制另一个让我很感兴趣的点是继承功能。

But the other piece of multisig that's really interesting to me as a parent is inheritance.

所以你们怎么处理单签继承其实可以很简单。

So how do you guys because single sig inheritance can be quite simple.

对吧？

Right?

你可以直接告诉继承人你的助记词在哪。

You can tell your heirs where your seed phrase is.

但是呢...

But the Yeah.

但这样他们就知道你的助记词

But then they know where your seed

在哪了。

phrase is.

就是这样

So that's a

简单来说，它们现在已进入你的威胁模型。

simple is now they've entered your threat model.

对吧？

Right?

问题不仅在于他们能拿走你的资金，还可能被迫将资金转走。

And the problem is not only can they take your funds, but they could be compelled to give the funds away.

对吧？

Right?

所以这不是理想的情况。

So it's not an ideal situation.

比如，你或许能完全信任某个错误，但他们可能被欺骗、被诱导，同样也可能被迫妥协。

Like, you you can completely trust maybe you can completely trust the error, but they could be fooled or they could be tricked or they could be compelled as well.

他们本身未必怀有恶意。

Like they don't have to necessarily be malicious themselves.

那你们是如何用多重签名处理继承问题的？

So how do you guys handle inheritance with the multisig?

是的。

Yeah.

我们的继承方案主要基于Miniscript，对吧？

So our inheritance solution is basically mostly based on Miniscript, Right?

Miniscript是比特币的一种很酷的编程语言，它允许你对支出设置比简单多重签名更复杂的条件。

So Miniscript is this cool programming language, let's say, for Bitcoin, which allows you to do certain conditions on the spending, which are more complicated than just the simple multisig.

具体来说，它允许你使用我们最常用的密钥时间锁功能。

Specifically, it lets you use what we are using most is time locks for keys.

也就是说，你可以设定比如当前有两三个钱包，现在只有三把密钥且需要其中两把来签名。

So it lets you say, okay, we have these, let's say, these two or three wallet, which is for now it just has three keys and you need two of them to sign.

但假设一年后，它会变成四选二的钱包模式。

But let's say one year from now, it will become a two out of four wallets.

届时会激活另一把密钥。

So another key will be activated.

目前这把密钥不能签署任何交易，但一年后它将成为法定签名成员之一。

Right now, this key cannot sign anything, but in one year it will be part of the quorum.

或者用Keeper系统的术语来说，这就是我们所谓的继承密钥。

Or let's say that's what we call an inheritance key in Keeper.

此外还有应急密钥选项，即将激活的新密钥本质上是单签模式。

Then you have an emergency key option where the new key that will be activated is basically a single spender.

这样就不是四选二，而是平时三选二，额外那把密钥可以独立使用。

So instead of having a two out of four, you'll be, you'll have your two out of three normally, and then the extra key can spend alone.

对吧？

Right?

假设你丢失了两把密钥，甚至因故丢失了多重签名中的所有密钥，这种情况下仍可恢复。

So let's say you lost two, let's say you lost all your keys in the multisig for some reason, you can still recover even in that case.

我们提供的方案核心是：具有延迟激活特性的密钥，比如你把它交给继承人时，他们当前无法进行任何操作。

So we give options of basically the idea is a key that has delayed activation that when you give it out to someone, so let's say you give it to your heir, they cannot do anything without it right now.

但如果时间到期（你没有延长或修改时间延迟），密钥就会激活并允许他们使用资金。

But then if some time passes, you don't delay, you don't move the time delay, then it will be activated and they can spend.

既然如此，那我们就来实际操作一下这个模型。

So in that, so let's walk through that model, like in practice.

对吧？

Right?

所以你有三分之二的密钥。

So you have the two of three.

你有三分之二的密钥，然后你给出的第四个密钥会在稍后激活。

You have the two of three, and then the air you're giving the air the fourth key that is activating later.

但他们仍然需要第二个密钥来签署。

But they still need a they they still need a second key to sign.

在这种情况下，保管人是否持有一个密钥？

Is keeper holding a key in that situation?

这是怎么运作的？

How does that work?

不。

No.

所以保管人并不持有密钥。

So keeper don't doesn't hold a key.

因此你可以这样规划继承：比如你给出一把密钥，或者他们知道一把密钥的位置，并持有另一把密钥。

So you you can plan your inheritance in a way that, okay, you give one key or they know where one key is and they have the other key.

对吧？

Right?

或者最终，我们希望在那里设置更多支出条件，这样你可以做更多事情或拥有更多继承密钥。

Or you could eventually, we want to have a bit more spending conditions there so you can do more things or have more inheritance keys.

比如说，你有三分之二的情况，但然后你给两个孩子各一把继承钥匙，就这么说吧。

So, let's say you have a two out of three, but then you give two inheritance keys to two of your child's, let's say.

所以现在，你能做的比如就是给他们一把应急钥匙，或者告诉他们你其中一把钥匙的位置。

So, right now, what you can do, for example, is just give them either an emergency key or let them know where one of your keys are.

然后他们现在还不能动用，一年内可以。

And then they just cannot spend right now, can within a year.

所以我...嗯。

So I yeah.

所以我想实际上，你是提前给他们两把钥匙，但其中一把是无效的，或者其中一把钥匙在时间线到达前不会被激活。

So I guess in practice, you're giving them two keys ahead of time, but one of them is inert or one of those keys isn't activated until the timeline.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

就是...嗯。

That's yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以这是如果你用它来自动释放的情况。

So that's if you're using it to auto free.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Right.

这么说吧，我正在设置它。

So I may let's say I'm setting it up.

我正在设置它。

I'm setting it up.

我正在创建，正在将三个密钥链接到应用程序。

I'm creating I'm I'm linking three keys to the app.

第四个密钥可能是由应用程序生成的。

The fourth key is generated by the app, presumably.

对吧？

Right?

不对。

No.

你也只能使用第四个密钥。

You can only also the fourth key.

对吗？

Right?

所以，好吧。

So that Okay.

第四个密钥可以是硬件密钥，也可以是应用程序密钥，比如另一部Ares手机上的Keeper应用。

The fourth key can be under a hardware or it can be the app, the Keeper app on the other on the Ares phone, for example.

但你需要导入那个密钥。

But you import that key.

基本上，你可以扫描它、使用USB等方式，但在创建钱包时要添加这第四个密钥。

Basically, you either scan it, you use USB, whatever, but you add this fourth key when you create a wallet.

明白了。

Got it.

假设我用四个硬件钱包创建了这个钱包，然后把其中两个交给继承人。

So I create so I create the wallet with with four hardware wallets, let's say, and I'm giving two to my heir.

然后我把剩下的三个藏到别的地方保管起来。

And then I'm hiding or I'm securing the three I have somewhere else.

那么当这个时间锁到期后...这个时间锁是怎么设置的？

And then if once this time lock expires and how does is that a is that time lock how is that time lock set up?

这个时间锁是基于区块链的吗？还是说...

Is that time lock based on, like, the chain or

对。

Yeah.

最初我们用的是区块高度，现在改用时间戳了。不过确实是在链上实现的。

So it's it's using well, we started with block height.

对吧？

Now we move to timestamps, But, yes, it's on chain.

所有东西都是在链上完成加密的。

Right?

MiniScript是比特币脚本语言的编程方式，我们所有的操作都是在链上进行的。

So everything is secured on chain.

所以...现在到时间了吗？

MiniScript is, is a programming for the Bitcoin script language, and everything that we do is happening on chain.

保持时间是...？

So keep Is it the time?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这是自上次交易以来的时间？

So it's the time since last transaction?

所以基本上就是在那之后的中间时间，具体来说，就是11个区块之后的时间。

So it's basically the median time after, what is it, the 11 blocks, basically.

不对。

No.

但自从我上次交易后，那个时间锁是怎么运作的？

But since my last transaction, like, how does that time lock work?

是像我上次交易后一年这样吗？

Is it, like, a year after my last transaction?

你创建了一个钱包。

You you create a wallet.

所以我们用的是绝对时间锁。

So we use an absolute time lock.

那好吧。

So okay.

在比特币中，有两种类型的时间锁。

So in Bitcoin, there are two types of time locks.

对吧？

Right?

存在绝对时间锁，它们设定为特定日期、特定区块高度；还有相对时间锁，它们在交易被接收时开始计时。

There are absolute time locks, which are set up to a specific date, specific block height and there are relative time locks, which start on the when a transaction is received.

这些时间锁本质上是针对UTXO的。

They are basically UTXO specific.

Keeper的功能就是使用绝对时间锁，这种锁允许你将日期设定在未来。

So what Keeper does, it uses the absolute time locks, which, let you set the date in the future.

比如说我们想设定在两年后。

So let's say we want to set in two years.

所以这是自创世以来的两年后。

So it's in two years since the world was created.

对未来设定时间有没有上限限制？

Is there a limit on how far in the future you can set it?

没有，对于绝对时间锁来说其实没有限制。

No, for absolute time locks, not really.

你可以任意设定时间。

You can set up whatever you want.

但相对时间锁有个显著限制，大约是一年三到一年四个月。

For the relative time locks, there is a significant limitation of one point three, one point four years.

那么在选择时长时是否存在权衡？比如你能否建议——再以我为例——人们应该设定多长时限？

So is there a trade off there in terms of picking how like, what do you have a recommendation for how long people should let's use me as an example again.

具体来说，时间锁应该设多久？

Like, how long should the time lock be?

我猜想，如果我设得很长，比如二十年后，而我明天就去世了的话...

I've assumed presumably, if I make it longer, if I make it, like, twenty years in the future and I die tomorrow.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们有二十年的时间来使用那把密钥，所以这不是个好主意。

They'll have great twenty years to use that key, so that's not a good idea.

但设置成一个月又太短了，因为要续期就必须进行链上交易。

But also making it, like, one month is also too short because you have in order to renew that, you have to make an on chain transaction.

你不会想每个月都做一次链上交易的。

You don't want to make an on chain transaction once a month.

对吧？

Right?

哦，这就是我需要做的全部吗？

Oh, is that all I have to do?

我不需要创建新钱包来重置时间锁？

I don't have to create a new wallet to reset the time lock?

对。

Yeah.

所以你要创建一个新钱包。

So you create a new wallet.

用的是同一套密钥。

It's with the same keys.

也就是说，应用基本上会自动为你生成新钱包，非常简单。

So it's, I mean, it's very easy to the the app basically generates the new wallet for you.

你不需要做太多操作，但需要更新备份。

You don't have to do much, but you need to update the backup.

你需要从旧钱包向新钱包进行一笔转账。

And you need to, make a transaction from the old wallet to the new wallet.

明白了。

Got it.

但是这个应用，怎么说呢，正在自动帮我完成这个过程。

But the, like, the app is, like, automating that process for me.

但实际上

But in practice

应用会尽可能多地实现自动化。

app tries to automate as much as possible.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我设置了五年时间锁，而现在四年半过去了，我就会打开这个应用。

If I make it a five year time lock and we're at four and a half years, then I'm going into the app.

在后台实际发生的是：系统正在创建一个重置时间锁的新钱包。

And in the background, what's happening is a new wallet is being created that's resetting the time lock.

但用户其实并不知道——不过它使用的是相同的密钥。

But the the user doesn't really but it's using the same keys.

确实如此。

So yeah.

继续说吧。

Go on.

它使用的是相同的密钥。

It uses the same keys.

它会根据偏好自动更新。

It uses the it just updates to the preference.

比如说，你可以选择你想要的新时间点，无论是再过一年、五年还是其他时长。

So let's say you you can choose what the new time look that you want, whatever it's another year, five years, whatever.

然后它就会自动创建新钱包，但你不必再次添加密钥或选择密钥，什么都不用选。

And then it just creates that new wallet, but you don't have to add keys again or choose the keys or choose anything.

但你说过我需要更新备份。

But you said I have to update my backup.

我要更新的是什么呢？

What am I updating there?

我用的还是同一套硬件钱包的助记词啊。

I'm I still have the same seed words for the same hardware wallets.

我到底要更新什么备份？

What backup am I updating?

对。

Yeah.

所以主要更新的其实是时间参数。

So what is getting updated is mostly the the times.

对吧？

Right?

就手稿这个案例来说，备份里还包含你选择的特定时间点，就是你选的那个具体时间戳。

So the backup in this case, in the case of manuscript, it contains also the specific time that you chose, right, the specific timestamp that you chose.

比如你有个密钥是两年后激活的，那个两年后的时间戳也会出现在你的备份里。

So let's say you have a key that is activated in two years, that timestamp of two years is also going to appear in your backup.

这是因为生成地址需要它，它是比特币条带的一部分。

That's because that's needed to generate the address because it's a part of the Bitcoin strip.

对吧？

Right?

所以比特币条带可以说被转换成一个地址，你也可以从备份中推导出这个地址。

So the Bitcoin strip is getting, let's say, translated into an address, which you can also derive from the backup.

用户如何保存这个备份呢？

And how does the user keep that backup?

对。

Yeah.

这就是你如何保护描述符的方法。

So that's with with how you would secure a descriptor.

对吧？

Right?

可以说这是多签中的另一个重要话题。

That's another big topic in in Multisig, let's say.

是的。

Yeah.

那么在应用中你们是怎么处理这个问题的呢？

So how do how do how do you handle that in the in the app?

对。

Yeah.

首先，我们允许用户将其导出为PDF或文件，或按他们想要的任何方式导出，以便他们可以自行保存。

So first of all, we allow the user to export it as either as a PDF or as a file or however they want so they can export it and save it themselves.

因此我们通常建议为每把密钥都保存一份。

So we recommend generally to save it with each one of the keys.

我们还允许您加密保存到iCloud或Google Drive，无论您使用iOS还是Android设备，只需输入密码即可自动保存至云端。

We also let you save it encrypted to the iCloud or Google Drive, whatever your iOS or Android, but you can basically enter a password for it and it will save it automatically to the cloud.

此外我们还提供通过Keeper保存的选项，同样会进行加密存储。

And then we also have an option to save it with us, with Keeper, so it's also encrypted.

我们会使用应用恢复密钥进行加密，这相当于您的主种子密钥。

We encrypt it with the app recovery key, So that's like your master seed.

当您输入并尝试恢复应用时，所有内容都会自动加载。

And then when you enter and try to recover the app, everything will load in automatically.

明白了。

Got it.

我笑是因为看到卡洛斯在评论区留言。

I was laughing because we have Carlos in the comments.

是啊。

Yeah.

我我我没想到会

I I I didn't think it's

评论说有时候调度其实就是奥德尔与开发人员的一对一用户会话。

saying sometimes dispatch is just Odell's one on one user session with the dev.

希望你们觉得这种形式有帮助。

I mean, I hope you guys find that helpful.

这算是我的风格吧。

It's kinda my style.

我是说，当你提到备份时，实际上这是个隐私问题。

I so when you say that, so the I mean, that backup is a privacy issue.

这不是安全问题。

It's not a security issue.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果有人获取了那个备份，他们知道你的余额和交易记录，但他们实际上无法动用你的资金。

So if someone gets access to that backup, they they know your balance and they know your transaction history, but they don't they can't actually spend your funds.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

他们无法动用任何资金，但能知道你的余额。

They cannot spend anything, but they can know your your balance.

所以，是的，你通常应该保护好它，但它不像你的密钥那么关键。

So, yeah, you should generally protect it, but it's not as critical as your keys.

那么你可以——我是说，你可以把那个PDF打印出来，然后最好把那个PDF存放在多个地方？

So you can I mean, so you take that PDF and you print out that PDF and then you can just store that PDF, ideally, in multiple places?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

而且那个PDF上有个二维码。

And is it that PDF has a QR code on it.

事情就是这样吗？

Is that what it is?

是啊。

So Yeah.

所以不用重新输入它。

So it is don't have to retype it.

基本上。

Basically.

这样你就能有两种选择。

So you can have both options.

不知为何它无法扫描二维码。

It doesn't scan the QR for some reason.

我是说手动输入会很麻烦，但如果资金安全取决于此呢？

Can I mean, typing manually would be a nightmare, but if your funds depend on it?

你会搞定的。

You'll figure it out.

PDF备份意味着即使比特币保管工具消失，你仍能获取资金。

The and so that PDF backup means that if for some reason Bitcoin Keeper disappears, you'll be able to still get the access to the funds.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以你不需要信任我们。

So you don't have to trust us.

一切都符合标准。

Everything is compatible with the standards.

因此，如果由于某种原因比特币守护者不可用，或者代码从GitHub上消失了，你仍然可以通过其他服务或其他钱包恢复。

So if for some reason Bitcoin Keeper is not available and the code disappears from GitHub for some reason, then you can still recover on other services, on other wallets.

明白了。

Got it.

这一点极其重要。

That's incredibly important.

所有这些听起来都很棒。

So all of this sounds awesome.

听起来你们已经煞费苦心地确保用户不需要信任实际的比特币守护者团队、钱包和应用程序。

It sounds like you guys have gone through painstaking lengths to not require trust in actual Bitcoin Keeper team and the wallet and the app.

从历史上看，在这种情况下，很难从项目中盈利。

Historically, when that's been the case, it's hard to, you know, necessarily, you know, make money off of the project.

而你们是一家需要支付工资的公司。

And you guys are a company with salaries.

比特币守护者是如何盈利的？

How do you how does Bitcoin Keeper make money?

是的。

Yeah.

我们正尝试采用分层模式，也就是订阅模式来提供这款应用。

So we're trying to offer the app as a, let's say, a tier model, a subscription model.

我们有免费套餐，提供很多功能。

So you have the free tier where we offer a lot.

我们为您提供最多的选项。

We offer you the most of the options.

多重签名、单一密钥、硬件钱包集成，一应俱全。

So the multi sig, the single key, hardware wallet integration, everything.

高级套餐提供更多备份选项。

What we offer on the higher tiers are more backup options.

比如，我们提供更多自动化备份服务。

So, like, more automated backups with us, for example.

付费套餐提供迷你脚本选项。

We offer the mini script options on the paid tier.

此外，我们还通过服务器密钥选项提供特定功能。

And, yeah, we offer certain features with a server key option also.

大部分功能在免费套餐中已有，但备份、舒适性以及继承等功能需升级到高级套餐。

So we offer most of the features also already on the free tier, but some stuff for, let's say, backup and comfort and like inheritance we offer on the higher tiers.

那么价格是怎样的呢？

So what does that pricing look like?

第一档套餐每月15美元。

So it's for the first tier, it's $15 a month.

第二档套餐每月30美元。

And then the second tier is 30 a month.

我们还提供名为Keeper Private的全程托管服务，收费2000美元，包含全套工具包、全程指导等所有服务。

And then we have basically a full handholding service called Keeper Private, where we offer $2,000 where it's basically you have a kit, you have handholding, you have everything.

那是按年算的吗？

Is that per year or?

是的。

Yeah.

那是按年算的。

That's per year.

那是按年算的。

That's per year.

就是我刚才说的那些。

The the ones that I said yeah.

那2000是按年算的。

That 2,000 is is per year.

抱歉。

Sorry.

但其他的是按月算的。

But the other ones were per month.

所以继承功能——如果你想用继承功能，你得每月付30美元。

So inheritance is inheritance is under if you wanna use the inheritance features, you got you have to pay $30 a month.

对。

Yeah.

年费计划是300和150。

You have the yearly plan for, what, for 300 and 150.

不过没错，你得付年费或月费之类的。

But, yeah, you will have to pay the yearly, the monthly fee, whatever.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Cool.

我是说，这对我来说很合理。

I mean, that makes sense to me.

所以这是一种合乎道德的盈利方式。

So ethical way to monetize.

你刚才说还有其他备选方案，具体有哪些？

Do you have any, you said other backup options.

这包括持有密钥之类的操作吗？

Does that include holding a key or something like that?

具体是怎么处理的？

Like how is that handled?

是的。

Yeah.

我们提供服务器密钥选项，本质上就是一个存放在服务器上的密钥，你可以为其设置消费条件。

So we offer the server key option where we have, basically a server key, a key that is on a server, which you can, choose a spending conditions for.

比如设置每月消费不超过1000美元，或者设置一周、一个月、两周等延迟生效期限。

So let's say not spend more than $1,000 in a month or not sign for or sign with a delay of one week or one month, two weeks, whatever.

总之，这些选项也都是可用的。

But basically, have these options as well.

懂了。

Got it.

这也是付费套餐的一部分吗？

And that's part of the that's part of the paid tier?

对。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

这属于付费套餐。

That's on the paid tier.

明白了。

Got it.

不错。

Cool.

Carlos在问Bitcoin Keeper团队规模有多大？

Carlos is asking how big is the Bitcoin Keeper team?

是的。

Yeah.

可以说有六个人。

So it's six people, you could say.

好的。

Okay.

很好，小而精的团队。

Nice, small, lean team.

还有其他什么有趣的功能能吸引人们选择Bitcoin Keeper而不是其他替代品吗？

Other do you is there any other interesting features that would compel someone to use Bitcoin Keeper over the alternatives?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为我们提供的文稿选项非常强大且独特，让用户完全掌控一切，无需依赖我们进行备份或继承，他们可以用自己的密钥完成所有操作。

I think the manuscript options are very strong and unique option that we offer so that the user is completely in control, doesn't have to trust us for for backups, for inheritance, but can do everything with their own keys.

除此之外，我们还提供继承文件服务。当你规划遗产时，比如想留给律师或继承人某些指示或说明，我们都能满足需求。

Besides these, we also offer inheritance documents, so when you try to plan your inheritance, you want to leave something to the, let's say, to your attorney or to your heirs, some set of instructions or an explanation.

因此我们也提供这类服务，比如一些特定模板来帮助你规划这些事项。

So we offer that as well, like some certain templates that help you plan that.

除此之外，我一时想不起其他功能，但应用里还有很多小特性，都是为了尽可能简化操作而设计的。

Besides these, nothing off the top of my head, but there are a lot of small features all around the app that, that try to make it as easy as possible.

你们最近新增了对Tether的支持。

You recently added Tethr support.

具体是怎么实现的？

How does what does that look like?

你认为用户会如何使用这个功能？

How do you think the user is using that?

对。

Yeah.

关于Tether，我们基本上使用了一项名为'免gas费'的服务，这意味着你可以同时将Tether作为货币和免费选项使用。

So with Tethr, we use, basically a service that is called gas free, which means that you can use Tether both as the as the currency and the free option.

因此你不需要持有任何垃圾币就能使用Tether。

So you don't need to hold any shitcoins in order to use Tether.

这主要针对那些想使用Tether同时也想用比特币，但对其他垃圾币之类不太感兴趣的人群。

This aims mostly for people who who are interested to use Tether and also want to use Bitcoin but don't really care much about, more shit coins or stuff like that.

只是希望美元能带来些稳定性，但大部分交易仍使用比特币。

Just want to have some stability with that dollar but still use Bitcoin for for most of the things.

对吧？

Right?

所以要在两者之间保持某种平衡。

So kind of have a balance between there.

所以在Keeper上除了他们其他所有钱包外，我想他们应该还有个单签名的Tether钱包。

So along with all their other wallets on Keeper, there's also they would also have, I guess, like, a a Tether single sig wallet.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

正是如此。

Exactly.

所以你只需在列表里再添加一个钱包，就是你要创建的Tether钱包。

So you just have another wallet on the list, which is your Tether wallet if you choose to create it.

对。

Yeah.

你可以发送，也可以接收。

And you can send, you can receive.

没错。

Yeah.

就这样。

That's that's it.

它只是试图让人们的事情变得更简单。

It just tries to make things easier for for people.

我应该...我沉迷于阅读实时聊天。

The I should just I I'm addicted to reading live chat.

泰达币。

The Tether.

那么泰达币钱包是另一个BIP 85子种子吗？

So how is the Tether the Tether Wallet is a is that another BIP 85 child seed?

也就是说，你只需保留主热钱包种子，那也包含这个了？

Like, you're just keeping your main HotWallet seed and that covers that as well?

还是怎么运作的？

Or how does that work?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

正是。

Exactly.

所以它是另一个BIP 85子种子。

So it's another BIP 85 child seed.

所以用户只需保管一个种子。

So the user is just keeping one seed.

它覆盖了他们的比特币钱包。

It's covering their Bitcoin wallet.

它覆盖了他们的Tether墙，他们想要多少比特币钱包就有多少，还有他们的Tether钱包。

It's covering their Tether wall as many Bitcoin wallets as they want and their Tether wallet.

它是如何运作的？

How does it work?

Tether现在支持多条不同的链。

So Tether is on multiple different chains.

这是跨链兼容的吗？

Is this like cross chain compatible?

你能在波场上支付Tether发票吗？波场是目前最流行的，其次是Solana和以太坊。

Can you pay a Tethr invoice on Tron is the most popular and then Solana and ETH.

支付或接收的链重要吗？

Does it matter which chain you're paying to or receiving from?

是的。

Yeah.

目前我们只从波场开始，因为这里大约50%以上的USDT都在波场上。

So, right now, we started only on Tron because this is where, like, 50 something percent of USD is.

如果这个功能受欢迎，我们看到足够的需求，我们会添加更多链，这样你就不用担心要发送或接收的链了。

We want to add, if this feature becomes popular, if we see enough demand, we'll add more chains, so you don't have to worry about which chain you want to send to or receive from.

另外非常重要的一点是，我们希望简化整个体验，让你可以用USDT支付所有费用，这样你就不用考虑那些垃圾币或底层链了。

Also, very important, we want to simplify the whole experience so you can pay everything with the USDT for the fees, so you don't have to think about the shitcoins or the underlying chain where it's on.

不过，是的，我们希望支持用户所需的一切。

But, yeah, we want to to support whatever the users will need.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，我觉得美国人看不到Tether支持的价值。

I mean, I think as Americans, they don't see the value in Tether support.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我是说，我从来没用过Tether。

I mean, I've never I've never used Tether.

但是，比如我去阿根廷旅行时，阿根廷货币正在崩溃，很难兑换到美元。

But, like, I I mean, I did a trip to Argentina, and Argentina is a failing currency, and it's very hard to access dollars.

那里有非常活跃的黑市货币交易市场。

And they have a thriving black market currency market there.

我们去找了一个经纪人，他们98%的交易都是Tron链上的Tether。

And we went to one of the brokers and 98% of their transactions were specifically Tether on Tron.

所以实际上那个经济体已经自下而上地美元化成了Tron链上的Tether。

So that economy has effectively dollarized from the bottom up into Tether on Tron.

现实中我们看到，全球最受欢迎的自托管钱包是币安的Trust Wallet——这是个很糟糕的钱包。

And what we see is in practice, the most popular self custody wallet in the world is Trust Wallet by Binance, which is a horrible wallet.

它真的很差劲。

It's a really bad wallet.

但人们主要用它是因为支持Tether，而且它的比特币支持做得非常差。

And but the reason people mainly use it is because it has Tether support, and it has really bad Bitcoin support.

所以一个既提供优质比特币支持，又具备可用Tether功能的钱包，我觉得这个平衡点会吸引很多国际用户。

So to have a wallet that has good Bitcoin support, a really good Bitcoin support, and then also has usable Tether support, I feel like is a interesting trade off balance that a lot of international users will flock to.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我当然知道美国市场——我是说，美国人能轻易获取美元，对吧？

I definitely I know that the American market I mean, Americans have great access to the US dollar, right?

我明白为什么我不需要那个。

I get why I don't need that.

但并非所有人都能同样轻易获取美元，对吧？

But not everyone has the same access to US dollars, right?

即便如此，相比许多其他货币，美元仍是世界上最稳定的货币之一。

Which is still, compared to many other currencies, this is the most, one of the most stable currencies in the world.

对吧？

Right?

而且绝对是流动性最强的。

And definitely the most liquid.

所以很多地区的人们仍需要美元是有道理的。

So it still makes sense that in many regions, people will need some dollars.

对吧？

Right?

我当然知道比特币——我们都希望比特币能全面普及，但这不会在今天发生。

I definitely know that Bitcoin, Well, we all want hyper Bitcoinizations, but it's not going to happen today.

也不会在明天发生。

It's not going to happen tomorrow.

需要逐步从美元过渡到比特币。

There needs to be some gradual transfer from the dollar to Bitcoin.

而那些使用比美元差得多的货币的人，在此期间肯定需要美元。

And people who are using currencies which are way worse than the dollar would definitely need this dollar in the meantime.

对。

Right.

那你们是否也提供两者之间的兑换服务？

And so do you also you also offer swaps between the two?

比如，如果我在应用里，能轻松在泰达币和比特币之间切换吗？

Like, can I if I'm in app, can you easily switch between Tether and Bitcoin?

是的。

Yeah.

这个功能会在下一个版本推出。

That's coming in the next version.

我们会提供便捷的兑换服务。

So we'll offer the swap easily.

如果你想在它们之间转换，在下一个版本会非常容易实现。

So if you want to move between them, that should be very easy to win the next version.

明白了。

Got it.

我是说，这是期望的效果。

I mean, that's the hope.

对吧？

Right?

我认为如果想要更多人使用比特币，就需要有支持Tethr的优秀比特币钱包，这样用户才会开始用它们来处理Tethr。

I think if you want to see more people use Bitcoin, then having good Bitcoin wallets that offer Tethr support is that they come in, start using it for Tethr.

然后如果他们能轻松将长期储蓄转为比特币，他们也会这么做。

And then if they can easily switch into Bitcoin for their long term savings, then they'll do that as well.

你们对闪电网络的看法如何？你们是否支持闪电网络？

How do you think about I does do you guys support Lightning and how do you think about Lightning?

不支持。

No.

目前我们暂不支持闪电网络。

So right now we don't support Lightning.

原因主要是我们更专注于长期冷存储方案，比如储蓄功能。Hexawallet迭代版本曾支持闪电网络，但他们发现用户希望将消费资金与储蓄资金分开管理。

The reason is basically that we're focused more on long term cold storage, like holding savings and then people just so, and all the reiteration of the app, which was Hexawallet did have Lightning support, but they kind of realized that people want some separation between the money that they're spending and the money that they're saving.

对吧？

Right?

所以Keeper正逐渐转型为以储蓄为主，而非侧重消费功能。

So Keeper is starting to be more of a savings up and not so much just spending up.

未来可能会考虑添加，但目前不会支持闪电网络。

Maybe in the future we'll consider adding it, but right now we're not adding Lightning.

这观点我能理解。

That makes sense to me.

而且以简易的用户体验实现自主托管的闪电网络确实很困难。

It's also just, it's hard to do self custody Lightning in an easy UX way.

所以你们专注细分领域的差异化策略，我认为是合理的。

Have you and so, like, it makes sense to me to, like, have a focus and a differentiation between apps.

对吧？

Right?

就像用户可以下载Phoenix。

It's like the the user can download Phoenix.

他们可以下载Zeus。

They can download Zeus.

可以用它作为闪电钱包，然后用Bitcoin Keeper处理链上交易。

They can use that for their lightning wallet, and then they can use Bitcoin Keeper for, on chain.

我认为这对用户来说是完全合理的平衡选择。

And I think that's a completely reasonable balance for users to make.

这样每个应用都能专注于自己的优势，而不是试图把所有功能塞进一个应用里。

And then each respective app can focus on their strengths rather than try and put it all into one app.

我是说，趁你在这里——你可是比特币领域最有趣的技术头脑之一。

Have you I mean, while I have you here, you're one of the more interesting technical minds in Bitcoin.

你是否探索过关于简化自托管闪电网络的不同概念？无论是所谓的'自托管闪电'简化方案，还是LightSpark的Spark或Arc？

Have you explored the different concepts around trying to make, self custody lightning easier, whether that's quote unquote self custody lightning easier, whether that's Spark from LightSpark or Arc?

你有研究过这些吗？

Have you looked into that at all?

实际上我一直都在关注，自从Spectre之后，我就长期专注于自托管方案。

I really so all the time, I've focused ever since Spectre, I've focused on self custody more for the long term.

对吧？

Right?

比如储蓄、大额资金管理。

So savings, large funds.

从工作角度来说，我确实没怎么用过闪电网络，开发角度也是。

And I haven't really used Lightning so much from the work perspective, right, from development perspective.

所以我对这些解决方案了解不够，没法深入讨论。

So, no, I don't know these solutions enough to talk about them.

明白了。

Got it.

有道理。

Fair enough.

我是说，我确实试用过Waldo Satoshi的测试版，他们用的是Spark——应该是Mercury Layer的分叉，类似一条交换链。

I mean, yeah, I've I've played around with Waldo Satoshi's I played around with Waldo Satoshi's beta, which they're using Spark, which is, I guess, a fork of mercury layer, which is like a swap chain.

我还没有深入研究它背后的技术细节，但从用户体验来看确实很流畅。

I haven't, like, really looked into the, like, deep technical details behind it, But, like, UX wise, it works really well.

信任模型方面，虽然不算完全自托管，但对普通人可能够用了。

Trust model wise, it's, like, not quite self custody, but maybe it's good enough for people.

或许对监管机构也够用，这应该就是他们想解决的核心问题。

Maybe it's good enough for regulators, which is really the key thing I think they're trying to get around.

是啊。

Yeah.

大家要明白，闪电网络本就不是用来存毕生积蓄的。

For people to think if you I mean, Lightning is not really for for storing your life savings.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

所以，真的不是世界末日，在那里建立一些信任。

So, really not the end of the world, to to have some trust there.

对于小额资金，信任模式可以有所不同。

For small funds, the trust model can be a bit different.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为很大程度上只是在试图绕过KYC监管。

And I think that just a lot of it is just trying to get around KYC regulation.

如果这种所谓的'自我托管'对监管机构来说足够，那么也许也许是有道理的。

And if it's quote unquote self custody enough for regulators, then maybe maybe it makes sense.

但我要从用户体验的角度说，它运作得相当好。

But I will say from a from a UX point of view, it worked it worked quite well.

根据我对信任模式的理解，基本上你是在相信Lightspark不会恶意行事。

And from my understanding of the trust model is basically you're trusting that Lightspark isn't gonna act maliciously.

如果他们想恶意行事，他们可以参与交换，然后就能动用你的资金。

If they wanted to act maliciously, they could be party to the swaps and then could spend your funds.

好的。

Okay.

太棒了。

Awesome.

本，既然你也在这里，你对当前比特币的现状有什么看法？

I mean, Ben, while I have you here as well, like, so what are your current thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin?

你对我们的现状感到乐观吗？

Are you optimistic about where we're at?

自托管状态与纸质比特币产品相比如何？

The state of self custody versus like the paper Bitcoin products?

你对这一切怎么看？

How do you think about all of that?

是的，目前感觉确实很不错，几乎接近历史高点。

Yeah, I mean, things definitely feel quite good right now, very near the all time high.

对吧？

Right?

整个行业都洋溢着相当好的氛围。

So it's quite a good feeling all around the space.

但总体而言，一切都在朝着比特币金融化的方向发展，对吧？

But, generally everything is going towards the financialization of Bitcoin, right?

趋势是走向纸质比特币，而不是像几年前那样倾向于自托管的硬核比特币玩家。

It's going towards the paper Bitcoin and not as much towards the self custody hardcore Bitcoiners that we used to have back a few years ago.

所以，这既是好事也是坏事，对吧？

So, I mean, it's kind of a good and a bad, right?

我们都知道比特币会涨得更高。

We all knew that Bitcoin is going way higher.

我们都知道比特币会成功。

We all knew that Bitcoin is going to succeed.

但它正在失去一些曾经拥有的文化特质。

But it's kind of losing some of the cultural aspects that it used to have.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，我觉得这很可能迟早会发生。

I mean, I think that was probably always gonna happen.

我认为这就像比特币采用中最有可能的路径。

I think this is like the path of Bitcoin adoption that was most likely.

我的意思是，我和我，是的。

I mean, I and I yeah.

继续说吧。

Go on.

不。

No.

并不是说这完全没有道理。

It's not that it doesn't make sense.

虽然这某种程度上是预料之中的，但看到事情这样发展，大家都转向纸比特币而不是继续关注自我托管，还是不太理想。

Like, it was kind of expected, but it's still it's not the best to see how things are happening and going towards all the paper Bitcoin and not people just stopping to care about self custody.

长远来看这总体上有点风险。

It's a bit risky overall eventually.

不过，是的，我的意思是，我们确实无法阻止这种情况。

But, yeah, I mean, we cannot really stop that.

我想我们最多能做的就是尝试教育人们。

The most that we can do, I guess, is to try and educate people.

是啊。

Yeah.

有道理。

Fair enough.

我是说，我认为，你看，人们会以不同的方式使用比特币。

I mean, I think, look, people are gonna use Bitcoin in different ways.

你可能不同意所有人，也可能不同意他们使用比特币的所有方式。

You might not agree with all the people might not agree with all the ways they use Bitcoin.

这正是比特币的意义所在。

That's the whole point of Bitcoin.

我认为乐观的看法是，现在有比以往更多的人将比特币作为自由货币使用，并以自我托管的方式使用它。

I think that the bullish the the bullish takeaway is that we have more people than ever using Bitcoin as freedom money and using it in self custody way.

从比例上看确实大幅下降，但从绝对数量来看，实际使用人数是更多的。

Percentage wise, it's significantly down, but absolute number wise, like the actual number of people is higher.

而且相关工具显然正在变得更好。

And the tools are clearly getting better.

我们开始这段对话时提到过Spectre钱包五年前出现的环境。

I mean, we started this conversation talking about the environment Spectre Wallet appeared in five years ago.

如今自我托管比特币并以自由导向的方式使用它，比以往任何时候都更容易，这真是令人欣喜。

And it's never been easier than today to actually self custody Bitcoin and use it in a freedom oriented way, which beautiful to see.