CD181：弗朗西斯·普利奥特 - 公牛比特币自托管钱包公牛钱包

怎么了，怪胎们？我是奥德尔。这次我又从卢加诺请来了一位现场代表，只有音频。这位是我们的好朋友，绝对的传奇人物，弗朗西斯。最近怎么样，弗朗西斯？

What is up, freaks? It's Odell here. I got another in person rep this time from Lugano, audio only. We got a good friend here, absolute legend, Francis. How's it going, Francis?

我很好，兄弟。谢谢邀请我。

I'm doing great, man. Thanks for having me.

这是我的荣幸。我们...你以前上过Dispatch节目吗？老兄，我上过...我上过

It's a pleasure. I've we haven't have you ever been on Dispatch? Dude, I've been I've been on

是和马蒂一起上的Dispatch节目，我想大概是...大概六年前吧，你说呢？

the Dispatch with Marty, I think, like, I don't know, like, six years ago, you said?

马蒂的节目对吧？我不...我不记得了。哦不。我们是2019年一起上的。

Marty's show. Right? I don't I don't remember. Oh, no. We did it together in 2019.

在比特币大会上。首届比特币大会。旧金山。对。天啊。好吧。

At the Bitcoin conference The first Bitcoin conference. San Francisco. Yeah. Oh my god. Okay.

从那以后我们可干了不少事。

So we've gotten a lot done since then.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

那天是马蒂得知自己即将迎来第一个孩子的日子。我记得我们后来在屋顶上喝得烂醉。是啊。

That day was the day Marty found out he was having his first kid. I remember and then we got trashed on the roof. Yeah.

我觉得我们在撕裂前就已经喝高了。撕裂时也是。

I think we got trashed before the rip also. During rip too.

那天比特币涨到了1.3万美元顶峰。我还叫大家赶紧抄底。结果接下来两年都没突破1.3万，所有人都骂我是傻逼。

And Bitcoin topped at 13 k that day. Yeah. And I told everyone to smash buy. And for two years, we were under 13 k, and everyone said I was a fucking idiot.

是啊。那么现在谁是...

Yeah. Well, who's the who's

谁是傻逼呢？现在我们可是低调地翻了十倍。从那以后。好了，我有几个话题要聊。

the idiot now? Now we're just a humble 10 x Yeah. Since then. Okay. So I got a couple topics for us.

我们直接开始吧。第一个话题，你们发布了新的自托管Bull Bitcoin钱包。太他妈棒了。我一直在试用。

Let's just dive right in. First topic, you guys released the new self custody Bull Bitcoin wallet. Yep. Fucking awesome. I've been playing with it.

那么，对于还没使用过的朋友们，首先你可以在你喜欢的应用商店下载Bull Wallet，直接搜索Bull Wallet或者访问wallet.bitcoin wallet.bullbitcoin.com。但这个钱包到底是什么？为什么人们应该关注它？

So, I mean, to the freaks that haven't used it yet, first of all, you can just you can download it in your favorite app store at Bull Wallet. Just search Bull Wallet or you can go to wallet.bitcoin wallet.bullbitcoin.com. But what is the wallet? Why should people care?

是的。这个钱包是典型的经典比特币钱包，是它的核心。我们在底层使用了BDK，即比特币开发工具包。我参与比特币开发工具包项目已经快三年了。

Yeah. So the wallet is typical classic Bitcoin wallets is is the core of it. So we're using BDK under the hood, the Bitcoin dev kit. I've been involved with the Bitcoin dev kit project for like almost like three years. Yeah.

他们太棒了。

They're awesome.

他们确实非常棒。我认为Bold Wallet之所以特别、与众不同，或者说属于新一代比特币钱包浪潮的一部分——顺便说下，这是本次会议的热门话题之一——我们称之为下一代钱包，是因为最初我想开发一个LDK钱包。最初我的目标是打造一个像Phoenix那样的完全自主托管的手机端闪电网络节点钱包。这实际上就是我们的起点。

They're they're really awesome. What makes the Bold Wallet, I guess, special or different or part of like a new wave of Bitcoin Wallet, which is by the way, like one of the hot topics of this conference, it's like that we call them like the next generation wallets, is that actually originally I wanted to do an LDK wallet. Originally my goal was to have a full blown Phoenix style, fully self custodial, like lightning node on your phone wallet. So that's actually how we started. Right.

我们开始在LDK上构建。后来我对闪电网络有点幻灭，因为虽然闪电网络在很多方面做得非常出色——确实非常了不起——但有些问题你根本无法用闪电网络抽象掉。具体细节就不展开了，但主要与流动性管理有关，比如备份还好处理。

And I built we started to build on on LDK. And then I got kind of like I got a little bit black billed on Lightning because of that because, like, Lightning does a lot of things, like, really well. Like, Lightning is is really phenomenal, but there are things that you simply cannot abstract away with Lightning. And I don't have to go into the details, but it's got to do with the liquidity management, right? Like the backup stuff, that's fine.

在手机上运行节点没问题，是可以实现的。但流动性管理不仅仅是技术问题，还涉及经济因素。假设我是开发者，要推出一个钱包，当然需要找一个LSP。想象你有1000个用户，每人有1000美元价值的通道，那就需要LSP锁定100万美元的流动性——虽然可行。

Like running a node on your phone is fine. It's doable. It's just the liquidity management and also there's like, it's not just technical, there's economic components to it. Let's say, all right, I'm a developer, I want to launch a wallet, I need to find an LSP of course. And imagine you have 1,000 users with $1,000 worth of of channels, you have a million dollars of liquidity that needs to be locked up by an SP doable.

但当用户增长到10万甚至100万时，那锁定的资金量就太恐怖了。

But once you get to a 100,000 users or a million users, you're talking about a fuck ton of money.

总之是资本资本管理。

Anyway Capital capital management.

是啊。所以，你知道，我就觉得，好吧。看来LDK钱包是没戏了。所以

Yeah. So, you know, I'm like, alright. So the LDK wallet's not happening. So

如果真的是凤凰团队成为唯一一个差点就成功

what if Really Phoenix has been the only one who's too close to pulling

的。真他妈传奇啊。因为他们做的事真的真的非常难。而且说实话，我我我原本以为我们做不到凤凰团队那样的成就。他们真的特别厉害。

it off. Fucking legends, man. Because what they're doing is like really really really hard. And also, I I I honestly didn't think that we were gonna be able to do what Phoenix did. Like, they're they're exceptionally good.

他们的节点...我是说，他们的节点...我不知道现在上面有多少百万美元

And their I mean, their nodes I I don't know how many millions of dollars is on their node right

我很确定那是网络上最大的节点。我觉得Async可能是最大的节点。

I'm pretty sure it's the biggest node on the network. I think async is probably the biggest node.

但我觉得这是需要强调的重点，因为如果怪胎们都像我这样，我这辈子运行过无数闪电节点，7x24小时运行的闪电节点。现在我还运行着几个，主要是因为我需要7x24小时在线来完成某些任务，包括接收SATs。他们用SATs支持节目。但我日常使用的钱包一直是Phoenix。对吧？

But I just feel like that's an important thing to just iron in here because if the freaks are like me, I've run a ton of lightning nodes, twenty four seven lightning nodes in my life. I still run a couple mostly because I need like twenty four seven uptime or whatever for certain tasks including getting SATs. They support the show with SATs. But my go to wallet on a day to day basis has been Phoenix. Right?

我将单个币的联合UTXO合并成一个大UTXO。大UTXO用起来更顺手。把它放进Phoenix钱包后，我就能随时付款了。现在牛市障碍解除了，我坐在这里思考：接下来该用哪个呢？嗯。

I take a single coin joint UTXO, drop it a big a big UTXO. It works better with bigger UTXOs. Drop it into Phoenix, and then I just make my payments as I need to. And now that the bull wall is out, I find myself sitting there and like, one do I use going forward? Mhmm.

因为这里存在不同的权衡取舍，但它满足了我类似的需求。懂吗？比如我想给电子SIM卡充值，或者快速发送闪电支付时，我可以直接打开Bullwalt钱包操作。

Well, there because there's different it's a different trade off balance, but it it's filling a similar need for me. Right? Which is just I want to top up my eSIM or I want to send a quick lightning payment and I could easily just open Bullwalt and make payments.

Phoenix现在能用了。我选择Blackbaud的原因其实是2023年在萨尔瓦多会议期间——正好赶上第一波Ordinal手续费高峰。当时我在帮萨尔瓦多一个新人注册Phoenix，我说要给他转第一笔款，这时Phoenix启动了所谓的'即时通道'功能。

Phoenix works now. The reason why I got Blackbaud is actually because I was at the El Salvador conference in 2023 exactly during the first ordinal fee wave. And I'm onboarding a guy to Phoenix in El Salvador. I'm like, I'm going to send you your first payment. And then what Phoenix does is called the just in time channel.

如果对方正在收款，它会同时开通通道。所以我当时给那人转了5美元。

It will open a channel at the same time if the guy's receiving money. So I'm sending the guy $5.

但你可以链式交易啊。

But you could chain transaction.

是啊。但手续费要175美元，可能是SaaS服务商收的。开通道的手续费它...

Yes. But the fees were like 175, I don't know, SaaS provider or something. So the fee to open the channel It

大概4美元左右吧。

was like $4 or something.

不，要多得多。大概30美元左右，纯凤凰模型在费用低时经济性很好

No, way more. Way more. Like $30 or So something like that, like the the pure Phoenix model works well economically when the fees

费用低的时候。我想现在费用基本为零，大概还是60美分左右。是的。

are low. I guess even right now where fees are basically zero, it's still like 60¢ or something. Yeah.

所以我半夜躺在床上就在想，天啊，我们是不是得搞个托管钱包？我慌得要死，因为大家都知道我是自我托管的代言人，对吧？绝对不托管，永远自我托管，这是我的北极星。不惜一切代价自我托管。

So I'm like, you know, in my bed in the middle of the night and I'm just like, fucking, oh my god, like, are we gonna have to do a custodial wallet? I'm like freaking out because, you know, for for people who like don't know me, I'm like, you know, mister self custody, right? So like custodial No custodial ever. That's always been like my North Star. It's like self custody at all costs.

我做的一切都是为了支持或促进自我托管。我当时想，这他妈要怎么实现？于是就想到了用液态网络，对吧？而且我觉得很多人也差不多同时想到了这个点子——这个时间点正好是Ordinals垃圾信息泛滥的时候。这不是巧合，因为我们都在闪电网络全节点模型即时LDK上遇到了同样的问题。

Like everything I do is to support or facilitate self custody. I'm like, how the fuck we're going to do that? So that's when the idea of using the liquid network came in, right? And this and I think a lot of people have the same idea are pretty much around the same time and that same time is literally like the ordinals spam So it's not a coincidence because we all kind of like felt the same felt the same kind of like problem that I was having with with the just in time like LDK for like full Lightning node model. And yeah.

所以方案就是：好，我们做个内置比特币钱包和液态网络钱包的比特币钱包。问题是液态网络根本没人用，对吧？没有商家用液态网络。

So the idea was, alright. So let's build a Bitcoin wallet that has a Bitcoin wallet inside and a liquid network wallet inside. The thing with the liquid network is that there's no nobody else using it. Right? So there's no merchants using the liquid network.

他们都在用闪电网络。所以我们必须想办法在液态网络和用户的其他钱包间转移价值，这时Boltz公司出现了——比特币圈里我最爱的公司，这帮人简直是传奇，太牛逼了。

They're all using the Lightning network. So somehow, we needed to find a way to move value between the liquid network and whatever other wallet the person was using, and that's where this company came in called Boltz. So Boltz, my fucking favorite company in Bitcoin. They're absolute legends. They're absolutely amazing.

他们开发了一个API，能在不同网络和闪电网络之间创建非托管原子交换：比特币与闪电、液态与闪电、Rootstock与闪电，现在还有Arc与闪电。液态网络是最早的版本。

So what these guys did is they built an API that creates a non custodial atomic swap between various networks and Lightning. Between Bitcoin and Lightning, between Liquid and Lightning, between Rootstock and Lightning and now between Arc and Lightning. So so Liquid was the first iteration.

人们没有意识到Rootstock实际上在拉丁美洲的狂热玩家中相当流行。就像你去巴西时他们发现的那样。

And people don't realize Rootstock is actually decently used by degens in Latin America. Like they found that out when you went to Brazil.

Rootstock的交易量可能比Liquid本身还要大，我是这么认为的。

Rootstock has some probably I think like more volume than liquid itself actually.

就像在美国西部，我想到Rootstock。我都忘了那是六年前听说过的东西了。

It's like in the West in America, I thought rootstock. I forget that was like something that I heard of like six years

确实存在。对，没错。它是真实存在的。

It's it's a thing. It's yeah. Yeah. It's a thing. It's real.

所以是的，Bull Bitcoin是一个比特币钱包和Liquid钱包。当你发送和接收时，有一个非托管的原子闪电交换。这真的很像Moon，但是用Liquid实现的。完全就是那样。

So yeah. So bull Bitcoin, it's a Bitcoin wallet and a liquid wallet. And then when you send and receive, there's a non custodial atomic lightning swap. And that's really It's like moon, but with liquid. That's exactly that's exactly.

这就像Moon，但是用Liquid实现的，而且没有Moon发明的那个糟糕的备份系统，你懂的。

It's like it's like moon, but with liquid and without the retarded backups that, you know, system that moon invented. Right.

只是用种子备份。

Just uses a seed back.

是的，是的，是的。对我们来说，我们痴迷于钱包的标准化。所以我这次来的原因之一，就是要协助解决与ARC相关的问题，确保所有如雨后春笋般涌现的ARC钱包都遵循统一标准。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like for us, we are obsessed with standardization also in the wallet. So even here, one of the reasons I'm here is to help kinda like figure out stuff with ARC to make sure that all the ARC wallets that are popping up like really quickly are are on the same standards.

我们此行的另一个重要目的就是参与制定ARC标准。稍后我们会详细讨论ARC，没错。

We have we're we're here specifically to also partly build standards for ARC. Well, we'll talk about ARC in a second. Yeah.

让我们继续讨论这个钱包的话题。

Let's continue on this wallet.

没错，没错。我的目标呢，熟悉我的人都知道，我是个元老级人物。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and then my goal, you know, so like people know me. I'm an OG.

我是个密码朋克。我开发的产品——那些我想用的钱包，懂吗？在比特币这条路上走到现在，我做过很多事，如今想为自己做点什么。这个钱包项目完全出于自我驱动。

I'm like a cypherpunk. So the the the wallets that I I I build the product that I wanna use. Right? So I'm I'm at this point in my Bitcoin journey where I've done a lot of stuff, and now I wanna do something for me. Like, the wallet is a very ego it's a it's a fully ego driven project.

明白吗？首先我想打造自己真正想用的东西。某种程度上我甚至把它视为行为艺术，或者说——我希望它成为人们记忆中的标志性作品，成为我的遗产，毕竟Bull Bitcoin交易所终有关停的一天。

Right? So first of all, I wanna build something for me that I really wanna use personally. I also kind of consider it to be almost like a performance art or something like that or like I I want that to be like what people remember before. Like a legacy thing. I want that to be my legacy because the bull Bitcoin exchange will close one day.

懂吧？它本质上是法币业务。说真的，交易所他妈的就是最典型的法币生意。

Know? It's it's a fiat business. It's literally an exchange is a fucking it's the most fiat business ever.

我们只专注于比特币化，不涉及法币业务。

All we do is deal with Bitcoinization, we're not touching fiat.

当然。我希望这个开源比特币钱包能比我更长久，至少代码会永远存在，一千年后的人们或许会知道——我可能会把源代码刻在我的墓碑上之类的，这将是我的遗产。所以我希望它既非常易用又超级赛博朋克。这个钱包的设计理念就是要让它既性感又用户体验友好，同时内置赛博朋克功能，对吧？

Yeah, of course. And an open source Bitcoin wallet will hopefully outlast me and at the very least, the code will always exist and people in a thousand years probably gonna, know, I'm gonna probably inscribe a copy of the source code on my tomb or something, know, it's gonna be my legacy. So I wanted it to be kind of like very easy to use but also super cyberpunk. So some of so like the concept of the wallet is to is to make it sexy and and UX friendly, but also have cyberpunk features inside it. Right?

以这个钱包为例，我的目标是让它成为移动端的Sparrow替代品。想象一下Sparrow是桌面钱包的黄金标准，因为它赋予你完全控制权。

So from you know, my goal with the wallet, for example, is to is for it to be a Sparrow substitute for mobile. So imagine Sparrow is the gold standard of the desktop wallet because it gives you control.

是的，我们

Yeah, we

热爱Sparrow。它之所以出色是因为你能掌控一切：优秀的币种选择与标记功能，当然还能连接私有节点，以及硬件钱包。

love Sparrow. Sparrow is amazing because you can control everything. You have very good coin selection and labeling. Of course, you can connect your own nodes. And of course, with Spero, can connect your hardware wallet.

它具备精准选择、硬件钱包支持、私有节点连接等功能。内置隐私保护工具和Whirlpool混币服务，支持描述符操作，还能更新端口卡。简直就是个庞大的个人软件工具箱。

So it's got the point selection, it's got the hardware wallet, it's got your own node. They have privacy features, they have Whirlpool in there. You can do operations with descriptors. You can update your port card. So it's like a massive It's a software individual toolbox.

这就是

That's what's

这是一款支撑我所有项目、公司和家人所依赖的基础软件

sparing It's a piece of software that is my All my projects and companies and my family relies

的基础。

on.

完全正确。这是桌面软件的基础组件，堪称最佳，无可替代。

Absolutely. Foundational piece of desktop software. That's like the best, doesn't even come back.

不不不，确实如此。虽然也有Electron这样的选择，但我个人只用Sparrow。顺便说，我还给我妈妈展示了Sparrow，她觉得这个软件非常直观好用。

No, no, no. Exactly. And like you have like Electron, which is kind of there too, but I personally use Sparrow just because it's I showed Sparrow to my mom, by the way, and she she finds she finds it very intuitive.

嗯，这正是它酷的地方。对于高级用户来说，它几乎包含了你所需的一切功能。而对于普通用户，他们也能轻松上手使用。

Well, that's what's cool about it. It's like for a power user, it has literally everything you ever need. Yeah. But for the average person, they can figure it out and use it.

这正是我想在移动端实现的目标，也是BulleBitcoin钱包的宗旨。我们的一些创新让我们脱颖而出，比如我们是首个集成PageOn v2的钱包。我们就像是PageRelink的鲁莽版本，但未来会变得更好。

And that's what I wanna do for that's what I wanna do for mobile. And that's the goal of the BulleBitcoin wallet. And, you know, so some of the things that kind of made us stand out, like, we were the first wallets to integrate PageOn v two. We were kind of like the reckless version of PageRelink. It's gonna get way better.

就像PageRelink的最新稳定版即将发布。说实话，在移动端那样做确实很鲁莽，但它确实奏效了。PageRelink确实运行良好，我们已经拥有了...

Like, PageRelink, the the new version of the last, like, stable version of PageRelink, like, is is coming out. It it was pretty reckless to do that on mobile, to be honest. But it worked. Like, PageRelink actually did work. We have like

PageRune这块还有点粗糙，对吧？

The PageRune piece is still a little bit rough around the edges. Right?

是的。

It is.

我制作时遇到了困难

I have trouble making

确实。是的。

It is. Yeah.

即使在测试环境里也一样。

Even in like test environments.

而且它还不兼容，PageRune协议存在破坏性变更。但我们上周才刚发布1.0.0版本，所以PageRune从现在起基本上会趋于稳定和标准化。比如其他公司，像Cake（另一个支持PayJoin的钱包）和Bowl...对吧？

And it's also incompatible with like there's like breaking changes to the PageRune protocol, but we've literally just they launched the version one point zero point zero of page on like last week. So page on is is is basically going to become stable and standardized starting basically now. So for example, the other companies that like cake for example and bowl, Cake is the other wallet that which is PayJoin. Yeah. Right?

我们之前用的PayJoin版本不兼容，所以你其实可以...

We were like on incompatible versions of PayJoin, so you you can actually Oh,

是那个

is that

PayJoin在运作吗？对。对。对。好的。

what PayJoin is working? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

因为PayJoin一直在做这些改动，就像

Because PayJoin kept making these changes as

钱包会检测到这是一个兼容PayJoin的钱包。对。它不会完成交易。对。对。

The wallet would detect that it was a PayJoin compatible wallet. Yeah. It wouldn't make the transaction. Yeah. Yeah.

好的。而且PayJoin还有一个服务器组件。

Okay. And and paid join also has like a server component to it.

Wasabi也一样。Wasabi是另一个支持它的钱包，我想。

Same with Wasabi. Was Wasabi is the other one that supports it, I think.

对吧？对。但Wasabi，我可能会让它和Wasabi一起工作。

Right? Yeah. But Wasabi I'll probably get it to work with Wasabi.

版本不兼容。是的。抱歉。

Incompatible versions. Yeah. Sorry.

所以这确实有点鲁莽。不过没关系，反正没有资金损失。是的，交易无法完成。

So it was it was it was a little it was a little reckless. But yeah, so It doesn't matter. It's not like any funds are lost. Yes. The transaction doesn't work.

对，对。当然，我也想要一个隐私优先的钱包。人们想到隐私钱包时，总会问'那你们没有CoinJoin功能吗？'其实不是这样的。

Right. Right. And like, of course, I also wanted to have a privacy first wallet. And it's like people when people think about privacy walls, think like, Oh, so you don't have CoinJoin? No.

不，还有其他方面。比如没有推送通知，完全零数据收集。这些都是...

No. There's like there's other aspects to it. So, no push notifications, zero data collection whatsoever. There's all sorts of That's

这正是Phoenix的短板。他们做了很多...我们iOS和安卓开发时不做推送通知和云备份这些。

where Phoenix really falls by. They do a lot of the Yeah. We We don't age dev, iOS, Android checks where they're doing like push notifications, cloud backups.

是的。Boldit Point的开发团队，特别是钱包组的成员非常严格。对依赖服务器之类的要求极其苛刻。所以现在我们用的这个版本...其实我已经用了两年半，现在是6.2版，但直到最近我才放心推广它。

Yeah. No. And and the the Boldit Point dev team, specifically the ones that work on the wallet are are very strict. Very very very severe in terms of dependency servers and stuff So like of course, well now what we have, okay, what we have So I've actually been using it for two and a half years. We're on version 6.2 now, but we we came to a point where I was like comfortable promoting it.

对吧？实际上我们这两年已经积累了1万用户，完全没刻意推广。因为你知道，之前还有些bug。当然没有会导致资金损失的重大bug，但有些糟糕的用户体验问题。

Right? Mean, we we actually got like 10,000 users just through over the last two years. Literally not like literally not trying to to to push it because it was, you know, there's bugs. Right? There's there's like no there's no, like, catastrophic lose your money bugs, but, you know, there's like shitty shitty UX bugs.

对吧？但现在我们到了一个阶段，觉得可以开始商业化了。所以我们最近宣布了iOS版本上线。iOS真的非常难搞，精神上都是折磨。我们花了很长时间，非常非常长的时间才让苹果审核通过。

Right? But now we reached a point where we're like, okay, we're ready to to start to start like commercializing it. So, yeah, what we recently announced was the the iOS launch. IOS was actually very hard, like very hard, spiritually even. It took us a long time, a long, long time to get iOS, Apple to approve it.

来回发了大概250封邮件

Have, like, two fifty emails back and

这简直是创伤性经历。

That's a traumatic experience.

是啊，我差点就放弃了。真的，差点就放弃了。

Yeah. I almost gave up. Yeah. I almost gave up. Yeah.

嗯，还有什么好说的呢？

Yeah. So what else is there to say?

但我觉得，跟苹果App Store打交道确实很烦人。可如果你想做一个真正大规模使用的钱包，就得在用户所在的地方提供服务。必须同时支持两个平台。从推荐角度来说，你干这行和我一样久了。

But I mean, I think, look, it's pain in the ass working with Apple on the App Store. But if you want like an actual mass massively used wallet. You gotta meet people where they are. And it needs to be on both because Yeah. From like a from a recommendation point of view, I mean, you've been doing this as long as me.

是啊，一旦要问对方用安卓还是iPhone，然后推荐不同的钱包，整个流程就崩了。能直接说‘下载Primal’就好多了。

Yeah. Soon as I have to ask, like, oh, we're using Android or iPhone and then recommend a different wallet for them, it breaks apart. Yeah. Being able to say, like, download Primal.

当然。

For sure.

位置根本不重要，下载Bull Wallet就行。嗯，这是绝对关键的。好的。我想快速谈的是，你正在使用Liquid。它就像月亮。

It just doesn't matter where it is or download Bull Wallet Mhmm. Is is absolutely key. Okay. So what I wanna talk about real quick is so you're using liquid. It's like moon.

怪人们都知道月亮，因为我疯狂地向他们展示。我休息的地方，但与月亮不同，它位于Liquid网络上。然后你在进行按需交换。首先说一句，我真的很喜欢有个钱包。

The freaks know moon because I was showing them like crazy. Where I rest and but instead of with moon, I rest it sits on the liquid network. And then you're doing on demand swaps. First, a comment. I really like having a wallet.

你说你有链上钱包，很安全，你称之为安全比特币，然后是即时支付，我觉得这非常直观。就像，好吧，我不会把毕生积蓄放在即时支付里。我会放在安全钱包里。所以，我真的很喜欢这种框架。我觉得不需要向用户解释。

You say you have the on chain wallet, which is secure, you call secure Bitcoin, and then instant payments, which I think is just immediately intuitive. It's like, okay, I'm not keeping my life savings in instant payments. I'm keeping that in the secure wallet. And so, really like that framing. I think that you don't have to explain to the user.

过去很多人把它比作活期账户和储蓄账户。但我们要面对的是，大多数人根本不知道活期和储蓄账户是什么，对吧？所以我觉得这个框架非常好。干得漂亮。Liquid这个东西，大概十年来，已经经历了四五次炒作周期，现在才是Liquid真正要被使用的时刻。

A lot of people in the past have called it like checking versus savings accounts. But where we're going, most people don't know what checking and savings accounts are, right? So, I think that's a really good framing. Good job on that. Liquid is something that for probably like ten years now, fallen into the hype cycle of liquid maybe four or five times, really, this is the moment that liquid is actually going to be used.

我感觉这次可能是真的。但我以前也经历过。人们对Liquid的最大问题，我们之前讨论过，我想明确一下，就是它的协作诅咒模型。这是一个多重签名联盟，你不能随时离开。需要许可才能退出。

I feel like this might be it. But I've been there before. The big issue that people have with Liquid, we've talked about this in the past, and I just want to be clear with it, is it is a collaborative cussing model. So it's a multi sig federation, you can't leave on demand. You need permission to leave.

如果Bolt宕机了，你就无法从Liquid脱身。你刚才说要减少依赖，你怎么看待这个问题？这会让你夜不能寐吗？如果你有一批用户困在Liquid里出不来，你有什么缓解措施？

If the Bolt is down, you can't get out of liquid. How you think about that as you said, you want to reduce dependencies? Does that keep you up at night? Do you have a bunch of users that are in liquid, maybe they're not able to get out. How do you like What are the mitigations there?

这可能是我在全世界最喜欢讨论的话题。我要特别感谢Breeze的Roy，他在重新思考托管与去信任化方面非常有前瞻性。从技术上讲，Liquid是自我托管的，在技术层面上你拥有LBTC资产。

This is probably my favorite topic to discuss in the entire world. And I'm just gonna do a quick shout out to Roy from Breeze, which also is a very forward thinking person in terms of rethinking custody versus trustlessness. Right? So technically, Liquid is self custodial. Like on a technical level, you own the LBTC assets.

但当然，

But of course,

你并没有自我托管IO。

it's You're not self custodying the IO.

这不是完全去信任的。这有点像，如果你持有Tether，比如在...

It's not trustless. It's kind of like, if you have a Tether on your, I don't know, whatever fuck, like if you're in

对。

the Yeah.

如果你使用Trust钱包，你是在自我托管Tether。但最终是Tether这家机构在保证锚定汇率。这种保证是因为Tether会通过法币电汇来兑换你的USDT。某种程度上说，Tether是最后的赎回者。

And you trust wallet, you are self custodying Tether. But of course, Tether, the organization is the one at the end of the day, which is guaranteeing the peg. And the peg is guaranteed because Tether will send you a fiat wire transfer in exchange for your USDT. At some point, a there redeemer of last resort. I

我甚至认为像Tron这样的托管代币根本不可能真正去中心化。因为它本质上就是个中心化网络，最终大家还是在信任孙宇晨。

would go so far as to say it's impossible to sell the custody, Tron or something. Because it's just a centralized network. At the end of the day, there's trust in Justin Sun.

是的。而且它们绝对不是无需信任的。所以在我看来，Liquid就像是一种比特币稳定币。对吧，某种程度上来说。

Yeah. And they are certainly not trustless. So the way that I see liquid, I see it as a Bitcoin stablecoin. Right. Kind of.

对吧？所以它是一种稳定币。是另一种与比特币一比一挂钩的代币，而Liquid联盟的职责就是确保这种锚定关系。他们通过在多签钱包中托管与流通Liquid比特币等值的比特币来保证锚定。

Right? So so it's a stablecoin. It's another coin, which is backed one to one by Bitcoin and the job the job of the liquid federation is to guarantee the peg. Right. It's not and they guarantee the peg by custodying an amount of Bitcoin, which is equivalent to the amount of liquid Bitcoin, right, in a multisig.

因此从严格技术角度来说，他们并非托管你的比特币，而是确保你的Liquid比特币与比特币之间保持一比一的锚定关系。

So from a strict technical perspective, they're not custodying your Bitcoin. They're guaranteeing a one to one peg between your liquid Bitcoin and that is

还有运行时间。他们保证的是锚定机制的持续运行，对吧？

And uptime. They're guaranteeing pegging uptime. Right?

这里其实还存在法律层面的区别。我认为从法律上讲Liquid并非托管方，Liquid网络的设计与KYC监管及规避方式有关。Liquid实际上用非常巧妙的方式避开了KYC和反洗钱要求。

And there actually is a legal distinction also here. Yeah. Where I don't think legally that liquid is a custodian. I think legally, the liquid network for that has to do with KYC regulation and how to avoid that. So liquid actually like somehow has a very clever way to avoid being there's no KYC AML on Liquid.

就像，它是个区块链。引号引号。但我真正欣赏Liquid的地方在于它真实存在。

Like, it's a blockchain. Right? Quote unquote. But the thing that I really liked about Liquid is that it exists. Right.

而且它确实有效。对吧？批评某个事物很容易，说另一种模式可能更好，但那种模式并不存在，而现有模式是可行的。在我看来，这里存在一个程度问题。

And that it works. Right? So it's it's really easy to to criticize something and say that another model could be better, but the other model doesn't exist whereas the existing model works. And the way that I see it, there's so okay. So there is a scale here.

对吧？有两个轴。一个是y轴，一个是x轴。在我看来，存在一个用户体验与妥协的矩阵。对吧？

Right? There's two axis. There's the y axis and the x axis. And the way I see it, there's a UX and compromise matrix. Right?

所谓妥协，我指的是在核心密码朋克价值观上的让步——自我托管、隐私保护、去信任化和无需许可。对吧？通常公司的做法是：为了提升用户体验分，他们会在密码朋克精神上妥协。对吧？想想Coinbase、BitPay这些公司都是这样。

And by compromise, I mean compromising on core Cypherpunk values of self custody, of privacy, of trustlessness and permissionlessness. Right? So typically what a company will do is that they will compromise on the Cypherpunk ethos in order to gain UX points. Right? And it's almost like and think of like the Coinbase's and the BitPay's and all of these people.

它们会迅速妥协来换取微薄的使用体验提升。而我...我在矩阵上有几个锚定点，我想做的是：在某个妥协阈值之下，我绝不越界，但要在保持这个妥协水平的同时提升用户体验分。那些怪胎很难理解这点，毕竟我现在正用手比划着试图让你们想象这张图表。但Liquid对我来说比中本聪时代的安全系数高出几个数量级。

They very quickly compromise to gain marginal UX points. Whereas I I have and there's like these dots on on the matrix where I think what what what I wanna do is I have a certain level of compromise over which I will not walk the line and I need to stay under this compromise level, but I wanna increase my UX points under this compromise level. It's hard for the freaks to see that because I'm literally waiting with my hands right now. And I'm like trying to trying to make you imagine a chart. But but liquid is for me orders of magnitude more secure than like was it Satoshi.

没错。而且比Cashew安全几个数量级，比Fetty安全几个数量级。关键是它已经存在且运行良好。明白吗？

Right. And, you know, orders of magnitude more secure than cashew. Orders of magnitude more secure than Fetty. And now and it exists and it works. Okay?

可能不包括Fedi。

So Maybe not Fedi.

从技术上说...技术上联邦制大概...应该就是这么实现的。Fedi。

I mean, technically Technically, what the the Federate that's probably How it's implemented. Fedi.

对吧？关键在于具体实现方式会带来差异。技术上你完全可以搞出一个由15个专业团队运营的Fedi。

Right? So the thing is how it's implemented actually makes a difference. Right? So technically, you could have you could have like a Fedi that has 15 very professionally run.

对，只是还没有

Right. Just don't have

那个功能。我们目前还没有那个功能，对吧？就像液态网络是存在的。但我显然担心使用钱包时，人们会不小心把液态网络和比特币搞混。

that yet. We just don't have that yet. Right? So again, like liquid exists. But I obviously, my fear with using the wallets was that people were accidentally gonna confuse liquid with Bitcoin.

是啊。

Yeah.

这确实很难做到既不让用户认知过载，同时又不误导他们。这非常非常困难，需要在用户体验设计上非常精细。谢谢你这么说，我确实花了很多时间来解决这个问题。

It's it's really hard to to not cognitively overwhelm a person, but also not mislead them at the same time. It's very, very difficult. It requires a lot of finesse in UX. And thank you for saying, I actually spent a lot of time trying to figure that one out.

即时支付与安全的比特币之间的对比很好。

It's good instant payments versus secured Bitcoin.

就像一个共用余额，但又是我需要查看的两个独立余额。这很棘手。所以我做的一个功能是自动兑换。我认为自动兑换是Bull比特币钱包最他妈棒的功能。默认设置下，当液态网络达到100万聪时，下次打开钱包就会自动兑换成链上比特币，这样就有机制防止人们不小心...有意思。

And like a common balance, but also two separate balances that I have to look at. It's tough. So one of the things that I did is the auto swap. I think the auto swap is is the fucking greatest feature of the bull Bitcoin wallet. As soon as the auto swap is a million SaaS by default and then as soon as you reach a million SaaS on liquid, the next time you open the wallet, it will auto swap into the secret into Bitcoin on chain so that there's like a mechanism to prevent people from accidentally Interesting.

因为你其实不应该在液态钱包里放超过500美元，或者1000美元，也许几千美元？这取决于你的消费情况。

Because you're not you're not really supposed to have more than $500 in the liquid wallet or like a thousand or maybe like a couple thousand. If you're I don't know. It depends on what you're spending,

这要看情况。难点在于它占员工比例的问题。

you It depends. The hard part is it's like a percentage of your staff.

是啊，当然。当然。

Yeah. Of course. Of course.

所以这是要视具体情况而定的。

So it's on a case by case basis.

对吧？如果你是个有钱人，用比特币消费的话——我每月都要花几千美元的比特币。懂吗？

Right? And if you're like a rich guy and you're spending Bitcoin, I I spend thousands of dollars of Bitcoin a month. You know?

所以你账户里有1万流动资金也没什么大不了的。

So you have 10 k in the liquid wallet. No big deal.

没什么大不了的。这就像...你知道的，这只是我每月买菜交房租的预算。

No big deal. Like, it's not, you know, it's it's it's my monthly budget for like groceries and my rent.

但我喜欢那个自动兑换的概念。对对，这也是我在收银领域一直推动的方向。

But I like that auto swap concept. Yeah. Yeah. This is also what I've been pushing for in the cashier space. Yeah.

就像，你为了方便使用现金。但之后会自动将用户转移到更安全的设置中。

Is like, you use cash for convenience Yeah. But then move the user into a more secure setup automatically.

是的。所以我们需要为用户做出选择。这其实挺有意思的，默认选项很重要，因为Bull Bitcoin最初选择非托管模式的原因之一就是，那些托管型比特币交易所虽然声称鼓励用户提现到自托管钱包，但实际上他们根本不会这么做。

Yeah. So we need to make choices for the user. And know it's kind of interesting, but defaults matter and like these things matter because one of the reasons why one of the reasons why Bull Bitcoin is non custodial in the first place is because companies that are like custodial Bitcoin exchanges, they're gonna say, yeah, but we're encouraging people to withdraw to a self custody wallet, but they don't. They don't. They just don't.

用户资金就那样留在托管钱包里。所以我不希望Liquid也出现这种情况，尽管我觉得Liquid的安全性足以让我安心入睡。自动兑换功能让我感觉很放心，因为我知道用户最多可能损失百万级资产——虽然这不是小数目，但你也懂的，

They just leave it in the custodial wallet. So that's I didn't want that to happen with liquid even though I think liquid is secure enough for me to be able to sleep at night. The auto swap thing, it's like, okay, now I'm now I feel really comfortable because like, I know that the worst that can happen to a user is that they lose like a million sets, which is like not a trivial amount of money, but also like, you know,

这并非世界末日。

it's not the end of the world.

不是世界

It's not the end

末日。你总能想办法

of the world. You can claw your way out of

解决。是的。而且

that. Yeah. And

他们可能无论如何都不会。Liquid最大的优势之一就是长达十年、十二年的持续运行时间，

they probably won't anyway. Of the biggest things liquid has going for is just what, like ten years, twelve years of uptime,

它的组织也相对完善。Liquid并不是...而且一群人在自家地下室搞这个也没什么问题。这很酷很棒。但Liquid实际上有委员会、董事会，已经形成制度化体系。

It's relatively well organized also. Liquid is not And there's nothing wrong with a bunch of dudes doing that in their basement. There's nothing wrong with that. That's cool and that's great. But Liquid actually has We have committees, we have boards, we have institutionalized.

它已经制度化且有点官僚化，说实话有点烦人，因为确实存在官僚作风。而Blockstream作为公司并不控制Liquid，但可以说像是Liquid的秘书处。他们会发送会议日历邀请，确保各职能部门在需要更新软件时保持沟通。当然我对Liquid并不满意，就像我不希望比特币采用Liquid的模式。

It's institutionalized and it's a little bureaucratic, it's a little annoying actually because it's kind of bureaucratic and then you have Blockstream as a company which doesn't control liquid but Blockstream I would say is kind of like the secretary of liquid. So Blockstream, they will send you calendar invites to the meetings and stuff like that. They make sure the functionaries and everything are talking to each other when it's time to update the software and that kind of stuff. But I'm not satisfied with liquid, of course, like liquid, I don't want Bitcoin. I don't want liquid to be the model of Bitcoin, of course.

不过Liquid有个有趣的特点是我发现的：当你购买比特币时

So there is one thing interesting with liquid, which I kind of like discovered is that when you're buying Bitcoin

嗯。

Yeah.

无论金额大小，我认为都应该在Liquid上购买。Liquid有个很棒的功能叫机密交易。比特币没有这个功能是因为完全不具扩展性——每笔交易约6000字节。但Liquid的中心化优势恰恰带来了可扩展性和低费率，当然这也是比特币如此出色的原因。

You should always, regardless of the amount, I think you should buy them on liquid. Liquid has a very nice feature called confidential transactions. The reason that we don't have that on Bitcoin is that it doesn't scale at all. It's a very large transaction inside, it's like 6,000 bytes per transaction. But of course, the benefit of centralization with liquid is also that you get scale, you get low fees, which obviously that's the reason why Bitcoin is so amazing.

比特币的精华在于去中心化，这也限制了它的扩展性。如果通过增大区块来扩展比特币，就会导致中心化。而Liquid默认就是中心化的，所以可以实现扩展性功能。

It's that it's decentralized and that's why Bitcoin doesn't scale because if you scale Bitcoin by increasing the block sizes, you centralize Bitcoin. Liquid doesn't have that. Liquid is centralized by default. So you can do stuff on liquid that makes it scale.

很多人开始使用流动性和区块，我们会

A lot of people start using liquid and blocks start We'll

直接他妈地增加区块大小。你知道的，这没问题。这是15个功能员。嗯，很明显，

just fucking increase the block size. You know, it's fine. It's it's it's a 15 functionaries. Well, obviously,

我们会发送活动邀请，然后你们

we'll send an event invite and then you guys

我们就直接在软木塞上运行这个，或者随便什么方式。我们会执行硬分叉之类的。没关系。但它有保密交易功能。所以想象一下，当你购买比特币时想要防止的是最小化链上可追踪性，这不是什么‘去他妈的政府’那种事。

We'll just we'll just run this off cork or, you know, whatever. We'll run the hard fork or whatever. It's fine. But it has confidential transactions. So imagine what you want to prevent when you're buying Bitcoin is you want to minimize your on chain traceability and it's not like a fuck the state thing.

这也像是，不想被绑架之类的事，我不想让人知道我到底有多少钱。当我去商店买咖啡时——虽然闪电网络上不会发生这种事——但我不希望咖啡店老板知道我持有多少比特币。或者如果我买辆二手摩托车，我不想从我的储备中支付时让卖家看到我钱包里有10个比特币。

It's also like, don't want to get a kidnapped thing and I don't want people to know how much money I have thing. And I when I go to the store and I'm paying for coffee, which doesn't happen on lightning, but like I don't want the coffee shop owner to like know how much Bitcoin I have or if I buy like, I don't know, a used motorcycle at the store. I don't want to spend from my stash and the guy seeing that I have 10 Bitcoins in my wallet.

是的。我常举的例子是，你的老板不该知道你工资花在什么地方。当然。而卖你三明治的人也不该知道你的工资。没错。

Yeah. The example I always use is like, your boss shouldn't know what you're spending your salary on. Of course. And the guy you're buying a sandwich from shouldn't know your salary. Exactly.

这些都是基本的财务隐私原则。当然。所以

These are basic financial privacy primitives. Of course. So

如果你收到的是直接以Liquid支付，或者通过类似闪电网络到Liquid的快速兑换，最终资金会进入你的Liquid钱包。当你把这些资金兑换到安全的比特币链上钱包（比如Onchain钱包）时，最终比特币钱包中的资金与你最初收到的支付资金之间就不再存在链上关联痕迹。这有点像人们先兑换成门罗币再转回比特币的做法。明白吗？就像，哦，对。

if you receive if you get paid with either liquid directly or the bold swap like lightning to liquid, you end up with funds in your liquid wallet, whatever. When you swap that to your secure Bitcoin wallet, like the Onchain wallet, there is no more Onchain trail between the funds that end up in your Bitcoin wallet and the funds that you got paid from. So it's kind of like the way that people will swap to Monero or something. Right? Know, it's like, oh, yeah.

你可以先兑换成门罗币再转回比特币。这其实和你在Liquid上的操作类似——可以先兑换到Liquid再转回来。

Well, you swap to Monero and come back to Bitcoin. Well, that's kind of like what you can do with liquid. Can swap into liquid and swap back.

但两种情况都不完美，存在时间分析漏洞等问题对吧？就像他们能观测到。嗯。也许随着使用人数增加会有所改变。

But in both situations, you have a like, it's not perfect. There's a timing analysis issue and stuff, right? Like, they see it. Yeah. Maybe that changes as more people use it.

但目前用的人还比较少。

But right now, as as there's less people using it.

关键在于机密交易——你在Liquid链上看不到具体金额。虽然能看到Liquid和比特币链在某个比特币区块内发生了交易，但无法匹配具体金额因为...

Well, the thing with is with confidential transactions, you don't see the amounts on the liquid chain. So you can you can see that a transaction happens on liquid and Bitcoin within a Bitcoin block, kind of, but you can't match them because you can see the demand on

你是说随着Bolt交易量增大，效果会更好对吧？

That's what saying as Bolt's does more volume, it's probably better. Right?

对。对对。因为如果你...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you're

当然，唯一这么做的。十分钟左右的时间段，那么他们看到有资金流向批量钱包也没关系，因为地址是公开的，只有金额被隐藏。

the only one doing it in Of course. Ten minute period or something, then it doesn't matter if they see a liquid transaction going to the bulk wallet and then you see because the addresses aren't blinded, only the amounts.

金额和资产类型。对吧？所以如果有人...你无法分辨是USDT还是比特币，也无法判断是哪种资产，或者像是...

The amounts and the asset type. Right? So if someone's you can't tell if it's USDT or if it's Bitcoin and you can't tell what the Or if it's like

Samson的视频什么的。对。

Samson's video Whatever. Yeah.

Liquid上的某个垃圾币。所以Liquid并不完美。这个生态系统也不完美。当然存在一些故障点，比如Bolt是少数几家提供交换服务的公司之一...

One of the shitcoins on Liquid. So Liquid is not perfect. The ecosystem is not perfect. There's like Of course, there's like points of failure which is like, Bolt is one of the two or three swap companies that

Bolt是开源的。你不能自己运行这个作为服务提供商吗？

are doing Bolt's open source. Can't you run this as I well provider

当然也可以自己运行这个作为服务提供商。

can definitely run this as well provider.

那么你有考虑过这个吗？我之前问你时其实是在引导话题，我说如果你的用户遇到Bolt宕机，他们就会被困在Liquid里...

And so is that something you're considering? That's kind of I was I was a leading question when I said to you, like, your users would be like, if Bolt's goes down, then I'm stuck in liquid for

我非常有信心会有一群匿名用户在重复运行运行重复操作。

I'm I'm I'm confident there's gonna be a bunch of anonymous people running running Repeating.

对吧？是的。是的。那么你想象在钱包里，你会允许

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So do you imagine in the wallet, you'll allow

100%切换服务商？100%。我认为目前我们只用Bolt的原因。现在手机上就有一个Bolt服务器，就是Bolt的那个。其实有两个原因。

A 100 the switch provider? A 100%. I think that the reason why right now we are just using Bolt. So right now there's like one Bolt server by the phone, which is the Bolt one. There well, there's two reasons.

第一个是因为我喜欢这些家伙，他们从兑换中赚钱。对。是吧？而且，Bolt比特币不需要从兑换中赚钱。

The first one is because I love these guys and they're making money from the swaps. Yeah. Right? And like, Bolt Bitcoin doesn't need to make money from swaps.

他们已经做了大量工作证明。运营得很好。

And they've done a lot of proof of work. Good operations.

是的。我们从交易所赚钱。所以我不想从钱包里榨取收入。我在交易所赚的钱比从钱包里能赚的多得多得多。另一个原因是运营Bolt服务器并不简单。

Yeah. We make money from the exchange. So I'm not trying to milk revenue from the wallets. I make way, way, way more money on the exchange than anything I could do with the wallet. And the other reason is that it's not trivial to run a Bolt server.

光是运行一个闪电网络节点就是全职工作，他们做得很好。但未来肯定

It's just running a power lightning node is a full time job and they're doing a great job. But definitely in the future,

这本质上还是同样的LSP问题，对吧？这是个资本受限的问题，只是稍微简单一些。

And it's kind of the same LSP problem. Right? It's capital constrained problem. It's little bit easier.

是的。你需要流动性来运行一个Bold服务器，而且需要能够快速自动调配这些流动性。你需要脚本，需要工程师来管理这一切。所以这并不简单。

Yeah. Need you need you need you you you need liquidity to run like a bold server and you need to be able to move that liquidity automatically quickly. You need scripts. You need like engineers to like manage all that. So it's not trivial.

但也不是什么魔法。任何有足够动力且运行闪电网络节点的人都可以运行Bolt服务器。未来你肯定会看到各种不同的Bolt服务器，甚至可能出现Bolt服务器发现机制——就像Wazabi做的那种协调发现机制，顺便说，那其实是我在Nosser上悬赏的项目。

But it's also not like magic. It's not anybody that's motivated enough and that is running a power lightning nodes could run like a Bolt server. And in the future, of course, what you're gonna see is, you're gonna see a bunch of different Bolt servers and maybe even Bolt server discovery mechanism, kind of like, that's one of the things that Wazabi did that I thought was And coordinated discovery. And by the way, just so you know, that was a bounty on Nosser that I paid for. Yeah.

我悬赏的这个项目最终由Cook在Nasser上实现了，这是个协调器发现服务：当钱包启动时，如果有人通过Tor匿名运行协调器，问题在于如何在不暴露身份的情况下推广匿名服务？解决方案就是通过主网发布公告，客户端可以获取这些公告。

Was my bounty that actually Cook's ended up implementing in Nasser, is a coordinator discovery service where when you start up the wallets, if you have people that are running coordinators anonymously over Tor, the problem is like how do you market your anonymous service without doxing yourself? Well, you can just announce it on master and your clients can just get all these announcements.

就像这个协调器一样，你也面临着用户体验问题

And you have the UX problem just like this coordinator do I

在保持用户体验的同时做出妥协

compromise while maintaining the UX.

降低信任度，但在用户体验上尽可能推进。对，这正是我们这个领域一直面临的问题——总是非此即彼的极端情况。

Lower trust but pushing it as far as possible to the UX. Right. Yeah. Which is a problem we've had in this space. It's either one extreme or the other.

要么是用户体验极佳且高度可信，要么是极度自主的赛博朋克风格但用户体验糟糕。我们需要一些中间选项。

It's either super trusted with good UX or very sovereign cyberpunk and horrible UX. We need a bunch of options in the middle.

是的，是的。你必须做出某种程度的妥协，但我们的工作在于——其实有两类赛博朋克。懂吗？一类是理论派赛博朋克，另一类是商业化密码朋克。

Yes. Yes. There is there is some there is some degree of compromise that you have to make, but what our job as so there's there's two types of cyberpunks. Okay? There's the there's the intellectual cyberpunks and there's the like commercializing cipherpunks.

正因如此，比如我钟爱Breeze、Arcade和Boldz，因为我们他妈的真能交付产品——我们确实能交付。

And that's why, for example, I love Breeze, I love Arcade, I love Boldz, is because like we fucking we ship we fucking ship products.

我们交付

We ship

人们实际使用的产品，并且我们会持续迭代改进。想聊聊ARC吗？

products that people use and, you know, we change our products over time. We improve them over time. You wanna talk talk about ARC?

对，简单说下。我刚才提到什么来着？Bulk。对。

Yeah. So just real quick. What did I have there? Bulks. Yeah.

咱们重点说说ARC——既然在讨论流动性，我们正在使用liquid方案，同时有两个新项目已启动交付。我完全赞同你的产品观：去他妈的炒作。这个领域过去十年充斥了太多虚假炒作。要是我盯着每份白皮书，就根本没时间做实事了。

Let's let's talk about ARC because so so we're talking about liquid. We're using liquid here, and two things have come two new projects have started shipping. And I'm right there with you that I from a from a product focus point of view, like, fuck hype. There's so much bullshit hype in this space. For the last ten years, if I focused on every white paper that came out, I would have no time to actually get anything done.

所以，我通常只有在某样东西真正发布、真正可用时才会开始关注它，对吧？目前出现的两样东西是ARC和SPARK。昨天我们这里举办了ARC日。你对这两者有什么看法？

So, I really only start paying attention to something when it's actually shipping, when it's actually usable. Right? And so, the two things that have appeared is ARC and SPARK. Yesterday, we had ARC Day here. How are you thinking about those two things?

那么，你如何看待这两个项目与bull、liquid的关系以及未来的发展等等？

And then how do you how do you think about those two projects in relationship with bull and liquid and going forward and whatnot?

没错。ARC是比特币领域最让我兴奋的技术，可以说自闪电网络以来最让我激动的。当然还有其他让我兴奋的东西，比如静默支付和Nostradamus。我们在Bold Bitcoin上做的一些事情也让我非常兴奋。

Right. So ARC is the technology that gets me the most excited of of anything I've seen in Bitcoin since look. I'm gonna say probably since lightning. I mean, there's other stuff that gets me excited like silent payments and Nostrad, for example. Like, there's there's stuff that we've done in Bold Bitcoin like that that got me really excited.

有些事情...等等，在我深入讨论ARC之前——因为一旦开始讲ARC我就会深入探讨——比如静默支付，我认为这是一项非凡的技术。我们在Bold上将要实现的静默支付功能会非常牛逼。

Something that okay. Before I get into ARC actually because once I get into ARC, I'm I'm gonna go deep into ARC. Like Nice. There's stuff like silent payments, think is is a phenomenal piece of technology. I think what we're gonna do at Bold with silent payments is gonna be fucking dope.

Paynim和Samurai有什么问题？Paynim的问题在于他们有两个...那个比特...

What's the problem with Paynim with Samurai? The problem with Paynim is that they had a a there's there's two that bit

我正想说...

I was gonna say. The

靠，我忘记那个比特叫什么了。他们用的一个链上效率很低，还有Bit 47。然后当...

fuck. I forgot the name of the bit. One that they were using was like on chain inefficient and Bit Bit 47. And then When

有一笔交易是进出往返的。对。终于。没错。这个进出往返的交易建立了配对关系，所以你至少多了一笔交易。

there was a transaction in and off return. Yeah. Finally. Right. In and off return that set up the pairing between So the you had at least one extra transaction.

是的。

Yes.

而支付服务器是一个中心化服务器。

And the payment server was a centralized server.

命名方式，就像你拿到一个代码。对。对吧？你有一个一次性使用的代码，不需要服务器。是的。

The naming, so like you got a code. Yes. Right? You had a one time use code which didn't require a server. Yeah.

但如果你要向Sleepy Moose之类的付款，那实际上是一个连接代码的中心化服务器。我记得在我们继续之前快速说一下，批量交易方面，我认为用户需要明白最酷的部分在于你信任的是它们的正常运行时间。所以如果它们宕机，你就无法交易。但你实际上并不信任它们保管资金。如果交易失败，你不会损失任何钱。

But if you were going to pay to like Sleepy Moose or something, that was actually a centralized server that was connecting the code. I remember just before we move on real quick, on the bulk side, I think it's important for users to realize that the coolest part about bulks is you're trusting them with uptime. So, if they're down, then you can't make a transaction. But you're not actually trusting them with with funds. If if the transaction fails, you don't lose any money.

它们实际上从未托管资金。所以要求原子交换，这真的非常非常酷，与Shape Shift或Side Shift完全不同。哦。不同的即时

They never actually take custody of the funds. So demand atomic swap, which is really, really cool and very different from like shape shift or side shift. Oh. Different instant

100%同意。

A 100%.

过去见过。

Seen in the past.

两者都他妈的牛逼，因为你有一种叫做锁定交易的东西。对。基本上就像原子交换这种在比特币之前不存在的东西。对吧？这是一项非常新的金融技术，比如你向某人买毒品时，你交出大麻，我交出钱。

Both is fucking dope because you have you have what's called a lockup transaction. Yeah. Which basically like if the an atomic swap is is something that's like that does not exist before Bitcoin. Right? That is a very new financial technology which is, when you're buying drugs from someone, you hand over the weeds and I hand over you the cash.

我们无法原子化地用大麻交换现金。必须有人先付钱。而原子交换中，如果其中一笔支付失败，整个交易不会失败。两笔支付都必须成功。这简直太疯狂了。

Like we can't atomically swap the weed from the cash. Someone has to send the money first. Whereas an atomic swap, if one of the payments fails, the entire transaction doesn't fail. Like, both payments need to be successful. So so that's like that's crazy.

好的。那么静默支付，想象一下回归。对。想象如果我们有一个去中心化的静默支付目录。对吧。

Okay. So silent payments, imagine if for back. Yeah. Imagine if we had a decentralized directory for silent payments. Right.

其实我们已经有了，你知道的，就是LNURL。对。就是Noster。

Well, we have that with, you know, LNURL. Yeah. It's Noster.

对。

Right.

Nostr就是你的目录。没错。所以我并不是...我希望没人抢先做这件事，因为我会是第一个做的。但我已经把它放到GitHub上了，当然，我们要做的就是Nostr上的静默支付目录。

Nostr is your directory. Yep. So I'm not I'm not like, I hope nobody does that before me because I will only be the first one to do that. But I did put it up on GitHub, course, what you're do, what we're gonna do is silent payment directory on Nostr.

没错。Nostr启用的开放通讯录。

Right. Nostr enabled open contact book.

我想实现的是，我要为Blank打造像Cash App那样性感炸裂的用户体验，结合Cypher技术。Cash App性感体验的核心之一就是我能直接转账给Odell。对吧？我不是在给类似SP1212这样的地址转账。

What I wanna do is I wanna have the sexy fucking Cash App UX with Cypher for Blank. And part of the sexy fucking Cash App UX is that I send money to at Odell. Right. Right? I'm not sending money to like SP one two one two or whatever.

我认为具体来说，这可能是链上静默支付和闪电网络Bolt 12的结合。对。你甚至可以在里面放原生ARC地址。可以放

And I think specifically it's probably a combo of silent payments for OnChain Yeah. And then Bolt 12 for Lightning. Yeah. So And you can even put like a native arc you can put a native arc address in there. Can put

我不喜欢Nasser的一点是它太侧重闪电网络了，而人们还在用链上交易。我基本上想做链上应用。对吧？

The the one thing that I don't like about Nasser is that it's it's too lightning focused where people still use on chain. I wanna do basically, I wanna do on chains apps. Right?

Alex Gleason这个人，就是开发Social Provision现在搞AI和Oster的家伙，他发布了一个链上应用规范。不过这是个重复使用的地址。哦，这不是静默支付。是重复使用的地址。

So Alex Gleason, the guy who built Social Provision and now is working on like AI and Oster stuff, he released a spec for on change apps. Well, it's a But it's a reused address. Oh, well, It's not a silent payment. A reused address.

问题就在这儿。我们不是已经超越那个阶段了吗？静默支付实际执行起来很困难。

That's the thing. Like, don't don't we're we're past that. You know? We're we're past. The thing with silent payments is that it's actually hard to execute.

这个功能真的很难实现。对吧？所以至今没人做成。

It's really difficult to to implement. Right? That's why nobody has done it.

这就是为什么我有点喜欢重复使用的广告，因为它非常简单。而且，对于公共Zaps来说，反正也没什么隐私可言。所以这种隐私交换还不算最糟糕的。

That's why I kinda like it's reused ads because it's very simple. And also, like, for public Zaps, there are there's no privacy anyway. So it's like not that worst privacy trade off.

你可以，你可以

You can have you can

如果你使用Zap我的帖子，它会显示法国已经Zap了，你知道的，2000套

have If you use Zap my post, it like says France has Zapped, you know, 2,000 sets of

当然。但我们可以有不透露交易ID的Zaps。这显然更好，对吧？

Sure. But we can we can have Zaps that don't reveal the TX ID. Of course. Right? That's strictly better.

对对，这显然更好。所以这就是我想做的。我不想走回头路，你懂吗？我想努力推动它前进，但这很难。这就是为什么我要特别提一下CAKE。

Yeah, yeah, that's strictly better. So that's what I want to do. I don't want to go back, you know? So I want to try to push it forward, but it's hard. And that's why, for example, I got to give a shout out to CAKE.

CAKE山寨币钱包，里面有莱特币，有门罗币，还有各种乱七八糟的东西，但他们已经推出了产品。他们不仅推出了，还实现了静默支付和

CAKE Shitcoin wallet, it it has Litecoin, it has Monero, it has all sorts of crap in it, but they have shipped. They ship and they have shipped silent payments and

我经常邀请Seth上节目，为此没少挨骂。

I have Seth on the show all the time and I get so much shit for it.

他很棒。我超喜欢这些人。

He's great. I love these guys.

但我过去确实因为比特币的事没少骂他们。我觉得这是个干扰。他们有点陷在技术债务的泥潭里，就像...他们已经有大量用户了，所以很难让他们离开这个平台。

But I've I've historically given them a ton of shit for the Bitcoin stuff. I think it's a distraction. They are kind of stuck in the tech tech tech debt world where it's like Yeah. They already have nano users and shit. So it's hard to get them off the platform.

但在比特币方面，他们的开发速度简直疯狂。

But on the Bitcoin side, they ship like crazy.

是啊是啊。说到无声支付...另一件事是...我不想深入讨论这个，因为对很多人来说会很难接受。

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So silent payments. The other thing that I've and I don't wanna get too deep in that because that that's gonna be a hard pill for swallow for a lot of people.

我们确实开发了一个非常先进的比特币钱包备份协议，大致基于五年前提出的Photon SDK概念。来简单聊聊这个吧。

We did actually do a very advanced Bitcoin wallet backup protocol, which is loosely based on the Photon SDK concept, which came out about five years ago. Yeah. Let's talk about that real quick.

好的。因为我认为云备份实际上又一次打破了用户体验与自主权之间的平衡。

Okay. Because I think cloud backups are actually once again, you're pushing the UX sovereignty trade off balance.

你试过Bolt里的加密备份功能吗？

Did you try the encrypted backup in Bolt?

在iOS上不能用。哦，真的吗？

It doesn't work on iOS. Oh, it doesn't?

好吧。听着，你们这些家伙没听见吧。我们会解决这个问题的。

Alright. Okay. You didn't hear that, Freaks. We're gonna fix that.

好的。其实我一直想给你这个反馈。

Okay. So I've meaning to give you that feedback.

好吧。长话短说：我们要做一个既易用又安全，同时实现难度很高的东西。如果用用户生成的密码加密比特币钱包备份，你会得到备份的。

Alright. Okay. So here's the here's here's the TLDR. Wanna make something that's easy to use, that's secure, and that's very difficult. If you if you encrypt a Bitcoin wallet backup with a user generated password, you will get backed.

对吧？你以为自己密码很安全，觉得12个字符的BIG39助记词很可靠，其实不然。

Right? So you think you have a good password, you think your you think your BIG39 passphrase is good because it's fucking 12 characters, it's not.

这是可以暴力破解的。真的。比如苹果用户或任何能访问...

It's brute forceable. It really is. So some kind of like an Apple user or anyone who has access to

iCloud的人

iCloud, a

尝试一堆密码直到有一个能用，让电脑来完成这个过程。

bunch of passwords until one works, has a computer do it.

是的，有点像暴力破解。因为如果物理上获取了你的加密备份文件，加密过程是没有速率限制的。不像手机PIN码那样有尝试次数限制。

Yeah. Sort of brute force. Because if take the physical possession of your encrypted backup file, there's no rate limiting on the encryption. It's not like the pin on your phone where there's rate limiting.

这是安全元件在起作用。

It's a secure element stopping.

没错。如果我拿到了物理备份，我就能对它进行暴力破解，而且我一定会这么做。已经有研究显示人们成功暴力破解了BIIB 39，现在用计算能力生成足够尝试的密码量简直是轻而易举的事，对吧？

Yeah. Exactly. If I have the physical backup, I can brute force the shit out of it and I will. And there has been a research of people brute forcing BIIB 39 and you think the amount of generating compute enough to brute force a password is it's a trivial thing now. Right?

就像是

It's like

而且众所周知用户设置的密码都不够安全。

And users it's known that users don't make secure passwords.

他们确实完全不会设置安全密码。是的。所以我们采取的措施基本上就是

They they they they certainly absolutely do not. Yeah. So what we did is basically

另一方面，他们也可能把安全措施做得太过头，结果反而忘记了密码。没错，他们失去了访问权限。明白吗？因为你要记住，大多数人——我不是在提醒你。

And then you also have the opposite side where then they make it too secure and then they forget it. Good. They lose access to it. Right? Because you have to remember that most people I mean, I'm not reminding you.

我是在提醒那些怪咖。大多数人丢失比特币，不是因为被盗，而是自己弄丢的。所以你总是在试图找到那个平衡点。

I'm reminding the freaks. Most people lose Bitcoin. They don't get it stolen. So you're always trying to find those balance.

好吧，这些内容都可以在recoverable.com上找到。我专门做了视频解释所有这些。我花了很多时间，要知道我的背景来自比特币大使馆，在那里我接触过智商极高和极低的用户。

And, you know okay. So all of this is on recoverable.com. Okay? I literally have a video explaining all of these. I spent a lot of time and, you know, that's the background that I came from is from the Bitcoin Embassy where I dealt with both the really high IQ and the low IQ users.

所以我认为我很了解比特币玩家，非常了解比特币用户。当然，这就是个大问题——如果你的密码短语足够安全，你可能会忘记它；如果不够安全，又会被暴力破解。怎么解决？

So I think I know the Bitcoiner and I know, like, the Bitcoin person really well. And, of course, that's the big problem. If your passphrase is secure enough, you're gonna lose it. And if it's insecure, you're gonna get it brute force. How do fix that?

我们的解决方案并不是我发明的，但我觉得我们做得更好。本质上，我们通过BIP 85从比特币钱包私钥本身派生出一个很大的加密密钥。所以你先从助记词开始，然后我们派生

Well, what we did is I didn't invent that, but I think we did it way better. It's basically, we derive a very large encryption key from the Bitcoin wallet private key itself using BIP 85, right? So you start with the mnemonic and we derive

子密钥。

The child key.

本质上是从你的助记词生成另一个助记词，对吧？这只是随机熵值，我们用从助记词派生的密钥来加密这个助记词。

Essentially another mnemonic from your mnemonic, right? It's just random entropy and we encrypt the mnemonic with the key that we derived from the mnemonic.

对。

Right.

明白吗？所以你可以把加密的助记词上传到云端，因为暴力破解那个加密文件所需的能量和猜测你的信用密钥是一样的。

Okay? So you can upload your encrypted mnemonic to the cloud because that to to to brute force that encrypted file is the same energy required to guess your credit key.

对。所以

Right. So

但问题在于，好吧，现在你的加密密钥又是另一个助记词。这该怎么处理？

but of course, the problem is, alright, so now your encryption key is another mnemonic. What do do with that?

嘿。如果我手机丢了。对吧。我怎么恢复？

Hey. So I lost my phone. Right. How am I restoring?

好的。那个加密密钥能让你...首先，要恢复你的备份文件，你只需进入你的云端硬盘，比如Google Drive，下载它就行。这没问题。对吧？但怎么解密呢？

Okay. So that encryption key that allows you well, the fir first of all, it to restore your your your backup file, you just go in your drive, in your Google Drive, and like you download it. It's fine. Right? How do you decrypt it?

我们开发了一个叫密钥服务器的东西，也叫可恢复服务器。你可以把它想象成密码管理器。它是完全匿名的，不需要账户。

Well, we created something, it's called the key server. It's called the recoverable server. And think of that as being like a password manager. It's fully anonymous. There's no accounts.

没有邮箱，也没有电话号码。它只能在Tor网络上运行。当你进行备份时，需要将加密密钥交给密钥服务器，并用一个非常简单的密码进行身份验证。对吧？

There's no email. There's no phone number. It works only on Tor. And when you are doing a backup, you give the encryption key to the key server and you authenticate yourself with like a very easy password. Right?

所以用户仍需设置密码，但这个密码更简单，因为它不是

So the user is still picking a password, but it's an easier password because it's not

密码可以是一个六位数的PIN码。明白吗？因为可恢复服务器强制要求Zoom用于

The password can be a six digit PIN. Okay. Right? Because the recoverable server enforces Zoom for

访问用户数据库只需点击云备份，然后记住一个六位数PIN码。

access to user base is just pressing cloud backups and then just remembering a six digit PIN.

是的。

Yes.

如果他们丢了手机，在新手机上重新安装应用，输入六位数PIN码。没错，钱包就回来了。

They lose their phone, they reload the app on the new phone, they put in a six digit PIN Yeah. And the wallet's there.

至少需要六位数PIN码，而且我们会屏蔽最愚蠢的六位数组合，比如你不能

It's it's minimum six digit PIN and we we prevent the most retarded six digit like, you can't

一一一一。

One one one one.

你不能那样做。实际上，我们有最常见的1000个密码。你不能使用最常见的1000个密码。哇。除了12345611111888888之外的任何组合。

You can't do that. Like, we we we actually, we have the thousand most common pins Okay. And you can't use the thousand most common pins. Wow. Anything other than 12345611111888888.

比如，你可以那样做。密钥服务器和我们实现的方式——我不会深入细节，但我们实现的方式非常棒。它是完全匿名的。密钥服务器无法知道你是谁。除了TOR之外没有其他连接方式。

Like, you can do that. So the key server and like the way we've we've I'm not gonna go too deep into the details, but the way that we've implemented it is really good. It's fully anonymous. There's no way that the key server knows who you are. There's no option to connect to it other other than TOR.

如果TOR不工作，你就无法使用可恢复的密钥。

If TOR doesn't work, then you can't use the recoverable The if key here

我们实际上要讨论权衡模型，从技术上讲，你可以与苹果合作窃取备份，对吧？技术上来说，可恢复密钥与苹果和谷歌的可恢复功能并不互通，这比单纯信任苹果或谷歌要严格更好。

we're gonna actually talk about trade off model, you could technically work with Apple and steal the backup, right? Technically So, that recoverable and Apple recoverable and Google aren't working together, which is a strictly better than Yes. Just trusting Apple or just trusting Google.

如果我能以某种方式说服拉里·佩奇让我访问所有谷歌云端硬盘

If if I was somehow able to convince Larry Page to give me access to all the Google Drive

反之亦然。

Or vice versa.

或者说反过来。问题是谷歌并不知道是否使用了可恢复服务器或正在使用哪个可恢复服务器，因为你可以选择不使用可恢复服务器。你可以导出那个私钥，直接进行常规备份，无需依赖服务器。

Or or vice versa. The the thing is Google doesn't know which recoverable server is being used or if a recoverable server is being used because you can use you don't have to use the recoverable server. You can export that private key and just do a regular backup without using the server.

是的。我的意思是，明确地说，我认为这是个很好的权衡方案。它不是冷存储，但本就不该解决冷存储的问题。

Yeah. I mean, to be clear, I think is a great trade off. It's not cold storage, but it's not supposed to solve cold storage.

网站上的第一句话就写着：这不是冷存储。没错。

The first thing on the website is like, this is not cold storage. Yeah.

你们的框架设计得非常好。我想说的是，看看另一端的做法——不是对立面，而是另一个权衡方案，比如Phoenix的做法。在Phoenix上，他们有一个快速上传到iCloud的按钮。他们会让你勾选一个框，上面写着‘美国国家安全局和苹果公司可能会偷走你的钱’。

You do the framing really well. And I think, I mean, look at the opposite, not the opposite, but another trade off balance here is what Phoenix does. Where on Phoenix, they have, like, a quick and easy upload to iCloud button. Yeah. And what they say is, like, they make you check a box that's, like, the NSA and Apple can steal your money.

你能接受吗？而且，这种威胁模型对大多数人来说可能已经足够好了。我认为大多数人并不会把苹果公司和美国国家安全局视为威胁来源。相比之下，我们的方案要好得多。

Are you cool with it? And also, that threat model is probably good for the majority of people. Like, I think most people don't have Apple and and the NSA and their threat model. And this is significantly better than that.

而且，你知道，我想做的是比魔法备份发票更进一步的方案，但他们的思路是对的。他们的用户体验设计得很好。我只是觉得我们的方案更安全——应该说安全得多。关键在于用户的实际行为，你必须思考：人们真正会怎么做？对吧？

And and, you know, I I wanted to do something that's also a little bit better than an invoice magic backup, but they had the right idea. They had the right UX. I just think ours is a little bit more I think it's considerably more secure. And the thing is, people act and you have to think about, okay, what do people actually do? Right?

Liquid的情况也一样。人们实际用什么？他们用Satoshi的某个方案。那他们怎么处理备份？他们直接把整个助记词原封不动地存起来。

And the same thing with liquid. It's like, what do people actually use? Well, they use one of Satoshi. And what do they do with the backup? They fucking put the entire mnemonic.

老兄，人们把助记词存在LastPass里。

Dude, people put their mnemonic in last pass.

或者像苹果备忘录那样更糟糕。

Or like Apple Notes is even worse.

他们把它存在苹果备忘录里。他们把它存在谷歌云端硬盘里。他们的做法是把助记词写在纸上然后留在办公室。他们的做法是随手写在便利贴上然后弄丢。但这就是他们的真实操作。

They put it in Apple Notes. They put it in Google Drive. What they do is they put the mnemonic on a piece of paper and they leave it in their office. What they do is they scribble it on a fucking post it and they lose the post it. But that's what they actually do.

对吧？人们其实不会被黑。

Right? People don't get hacked.

截个图，存在相册或什么地方。

Take a screenshot, keep it in their photos or whatever.

他们的做法是把钱留在Coinbase上。这就是他们的操作，对吧，用个密码保护。好了，我们聊聊艺术吧。

And like what they do is they they leave it on Coinbase. That's what they do, right, with a password. Alright. So let's talk about art. Alright.

所以我他妈为什么

So why am I fucking

简单说几句。对。抱歉。

So just real quick. Yeah. Sorry.

请讲。

Go ahead.

最后但同样重要的是，如果这些都不适合你，你可以直接记下一个经典的助记词。对，当然。安全存储后，这就作为你的完整比特币备份。手机丢了？输入助记词，搞定。

And last but not least, if none of that suits you, you can just write down a classic seed phrase Yeah. Of course. Stored securely and do that as your full Bitcoin backup. You lose your You phone, you just put in your mnemonic, boom, done.

明白了。所以其实要感谢这个问题。想关闭交易所功能对吧？如果不想用交易所，其实已经有人提交了PR。

You got it. That's why thanks for the issue actually. Wanted to turn off the exchange. Right? So if you don't wanna use the exchange actually someone actually did a PR.

我看到了。

I saw that.

是我们这边。

Was in us.

很快的。大概一天左右。

Really quick. Was like a day or something.

是个网友做的公关。接受这个事实吧。对，很好。所以我确实在用可恢复的热钱包，因为我不太懂这些。

It was a random person from the internet that did the PR. Accept them for it. Yeah. Sweet. So I want I actually do use recoverable for my hot wallets because I don't know.

我大概有800美元在里面，非常方便。而且我经常卸载钱包，所以超级方便。

I got like $800 on it and it's so convenient. And I uninstall wallets all the time so it's like super convenient.

我喜欢云备份。

I like cloud backups.

但但但问题是，我显然不会他妈把我的积蓄放在云备份上，因为我的积蓄...我都不知道在哪。先说清楚，我根本没有积蓄。除了可恢复备份里的比特币，其他全丢了。就600美元，这是我全部的比特币了。

But but but the thing is I'm obviously not gonna fucking put my stash on cloud backup because because my stashes, I don't know where it is. I don't have a stash just just so we're clear. Lost all my Bitcoins except the ones in my recoverable backup. That's $600. That's all all the Bitcoins I have.

不过没错。当然。所以你能看出总体思路。核心思想就是，我想确保这对我妈来说很简单。其实我妈也是个比特币玩家。

But yeah. Of course. So so you you can see the general theme here. The general theme is, like, I wanna make I wanna make sure that's easy for my mom. My mom's a Bitcoiner, actually.

她太棒了。我想做个既适合我妈用，我自己也能用的东西。我知道这听起来老套，但你会惊讶有多少人跟我说'你做不到'。我记得比特币设计指南那群人，设计俱乐部的，他们说'你太想同时讨好极客和小白了，必须选一边'。

She's fucking awesome. I wanna make something that's easy for my mom, but also that I can use. And I know it sounds cliche, but, man, you would be shocked at the amount of people that told me, like, you cannot do that. Even I remember, like like like, I got feedback from, like, the Bitcoin design guide, the people or design club, and they're like, you know, you're you're trying too hard to like you're trying too hard to cater to both the Cyclone server and Mormies. You you have to pick one.

懂吗？要么做成麻雀钱包那样，要么做成水族箱那样。但我两个都不想选。

You know? Like, you have to just either you have to be Sparrow or you have to be Aqua. Yeah. I'm like, no. I don't wanna be either Sparrow or Aqua.

我想要我想要两者兼得。

I want I want to be both.

有个折中的办法。

There's a happy middle.

对吧？确实确实确实有个折中的办法，那就是高级选项。就像你默认选择了某条路径。如果你不清楚自己在做什么，就一路点击下一步、下一步、下一步。但如果你清楚自己的需求，就可以选择高级选项，进入更深层的高级设置。

Right? There there there is a happy middle and it's called advanced options. And it's like you had you pick a default path. If you don't know what you're doing, you click the buttons next, next, next. And if you know what you're doing, then you click the advanced option and then you go into the advanced advanced settings.

没错，作为房产经纪人，我们来聊聊ARC。ARC与Liquid或任何托管/半托管/信任最小化模式有着完全不同的权衡取舍，因为ARC有个独特功能——允许单方面退出。ARC的概念是将UTXO虚拟化为虚拟UTXO，就像把你的比特币转化为仅存在于ARC生态系统中的虚拟比特币。

Right, As a realtor, let's talk about ARC. Okay. ARC is a completely different set of trade offs than Liquid or any kind of custodial or semi custodial or trust minimized model because Arc has this very specific feature where you have unilateral exits from Arc. So Arc is a concept where you will the ARC server virtualizes UTXOs into virtual UTXOs. So it's like converting your Bitcoin into virtual Bitcoin, which only exists into the in in an ARC ecosystem.

这与Cashew或Liquid等模式不同。你持有的是1:1对应真实比特币UTXO的虚拟UTXO代币。但ARC的特别之处在于：存在预先签名的交易，即使服务器宕机，你也能不经服务器配合直接上链认领比特币。你可以随时带着资金退出。是的。

So not unlike cashew or liquid or that kind of stuff. It's a, you have a token of virtual UTXO, which is worth one to one is worth a Bitcoin UTXO. But what art does is that there is a pre signed transaction which allows you to claim the Bitcoins on chain non cooperatively with the server in case the server goes down. You can exit whenever you want with them. Yes.

你可以随时退出。即便服务器被查封或扣押，只要你选择退出，他们就无法卷走你的资金。

You can exit whenever you want. And the server can't rug you if you exit and if they get arrested or seized.

那代价是什么呢？是需要支付大量链上费用吗？

And what's the trade off is that it costs a lot of non chain fees?

是的。所以权衡点在于，假设你在ARC上有5美元，然后你进行单边退出，你可能会被抢劫。ARC还有另一种奇怪的权衡，它采用预确认交易模型，也就是说，为了获得链上保证，你需要将虚拟UTXO包含在链上的实际音乐Taproot输出中。是的，这并非免费。

Yeah. So the trade off is that let's say that you have $5 on ARC and you do a unilateral exit, like, you're gonna get robbed. And there's another kind of like weird trade off in ARC where ARC has a pre confirmed transaction model, which is like, you can have a in order to get the on chain guarantee on ARC, you need to include your virtual UTXO in an actual music Taproot output on chain. Yeah. And that's not free.

对吧？ARC ASP需要发布比特币交易来更新状态，我猜。

Right? The Arc ASP needs to publish a Bitcoin transaction in order to update, I guess, The states.

他们多久做一次这个操作？

How often are they doing this?

老兄，如果我解释错了，Alex会杀了我的，但他们想什么时候做就什么时候做。

Man, if I dude, Alex is gonna kill me if I explain Art wrong, but they will do that whenever they want.

好的，谢谢。我之后会邀请Alex上节目。

Well, thanks. I'll have Alex on at some point.