CD184：CALLE - 闲聊与现金

需要保持应用开启才能转发消息吗？

to have the app open to relay messages?

没错。

That's right.

至少在iOS上，你需要让应用保持在前台运行，当然也可以切换到后台。

At least for iOS, you need to kind of have it open in front of you and you can close it into the like you can put it in the background.

在iOS和Android上它仍会持续工作，但需要确保在最近一次重启后至少打开过应用且未关闭。

It still keeps working on iOS and on Android, but you need to like at least have it opened once without closing it, after your last reboot.

不过我们也在优化网格功能，即将推出一些很棒的更新。

But yeah, we're also working on, on the mesh side where we have some really cool updates in the pipeline there.

我们最近新增的功能包括文件传输和图片传输。

So, the things we've just added recently was file transfers and image transfers.

现在你可以通过蓝牙网格分享语音笔记、图片甚至文件，这对很多人很有用，因为他们主要通过语音聊天交流。

So you can also now, share voice notes and images and even files using the Bluetooth mesh, which can be useful because many people just use communication just via voice voice chat.

所以他们希望能直接对着麦克风讲话。

So they wanna be able to to speak into the into the microphone.

你周围的所有人都会收到这条语音消息。

Everyone else in your vicinity will then receive this, this, you know, speech message.

而且，我们还在改进，比如让网络更先进，我们现在正在添加源路由功能，类似于Tor的工作方式。

And, we're also improving, like making the mesh more advanced in a sense that we're adding source routing now, similar to how Tor works.

所以目前，如果你发送一条私信，如果我在网络中给你发私信，目前就像是广播一样。

So currently, if you do a, if you send a DM, if I send you a DM in the mesh, currently it's like a broadcast.

我会把私信发给所有人，希望这些人中有些人与你相连，或者至少通过几跳与你相连。

I will send the DM to anyone hoping that all of these people, some of them are connected to you, or at least they're connected a couple of hops down the line with you.

这是一个广播系统，很多不感兴趣的人也会收到消息。

So it's a flood system where many, many people get the message that who are not really interested in it.

所以如果我有私信，更高效的传递方式是采用某种路由方法。

So if I have a DM, a more efficient way of getting that message to you is, would be using kind of a routing method.

我们实现的机制类似于Tor网络或太空协议的工作原理，即通过网格网络寻找从发件人到收件人的路由路径。

And what we've implemented is something similar to how Tor works or the space protocol works, where we take the message and then we, find the route through the mesh, starting from me ending up at you.

然后我们沿着预定路线传递数据包，使私信能更高效地抵达目的地。

And then we hand over that package down the predetermined route so that DMs can reach your destination much more efficiently.

这非常棒，因为它能大幅降低系统压力，特别是对于包含文件、音频等较大载荷的私密消息传输来说，效率提升了好几个数量级。

That is great because it reduces the stress on the system by, like, many orders of magnitude or direct messages, especially if you have larger payloads with like files and audio and whatnot.

而我现在正在开发的——这部分功能还处于深度开发阶段——

And, and what I'm currently working on, and this is like, we, you know, this is still in-depth.

虽然已经能运行，但尚未发布的是安卓版本。

It already works, but it's not released yet is for Android.

我们已开发出基于WiFi Aware（一种WiFi网状网络机制）的可用版本，能显著扩展安卓设备间的组网范围，实现多台安卓设备通过WiFi芯片直接点对点连接，无需手动配对。

We have a working version for WiFi aware that is a WiFi based mesh mechanism that you can use on Android, you know, considerably increases the range for the mesh, where you can, you can do a peer to peer connection between two Android, multiple Android devices using the wifi chip without having to like manually connect to them.

因此它算是对蓝牙功能的补充，两者可以并行运作。

So it's kind of compliment compliments the Bluetooth as well, both run side by side.

我们在iOS和安卓兼容性方面仍有些困难，因为苹果那边有些技术限制，不过欧盟法规可能会迫使他们实现跨平台兼容。

We still struggle a bit with the compatibility between iOS and Android because there is like some Apple shenanigans going on there, but, the EU regulations might force them to actually become, cross compatible.

我们拭目以待吧。

We'll, we'll see.

所以基于WiFi的网状网络方案正在开发中。

So there's wifi based math in the pipeline.

而我是

And what I'm

大部分范围是指那个吗？

most of the range is that?

嗯，WiFi芯片比蓝牙芯片强大得多。

Well, the WiFi chip is way stronger than the Bluetooth chip.

我自己还没测试过。

I haven't tested it myself.

是不是像

Is it like

有五倍的覆盖范围提升？

a five X range improvement?

十倍？

10 X?

比如，

Like,

很难说。

Hard to say.

我没试过，所以不想随便说个数字。

I haven't tried, so I don't wanna say a number.

我我还没试过。

I I haven't tried.

就像但根据你自己的经验，WiFi有多强，你需要从那里推断。

Just like but you have your from your own experience, how strong WiFi is to just you need to extrapolate from there.

它会好得多，而且对墙壁之类的东西穿透力会强得多。

It's it is going to be much better and it's going to like, walls and stuff like that much better.

所以WiFi感知很酷，因为你可以升级所有安卓设备，同时也能改善iOS设备，因为安卓设备仍然支持蓝牙。

So wifi aware, and that's, it's cool because you can, like, you can just upgrade all the Androids and it still improves the iOS devices as well because the Androids also still work on Bluetooth.

所以可以通过蓝牙从iOS设备发送消息到安卓，然后通过WiFi在安卓设备之间传输。

So can like get the message from, iOS to Android via Bluetooth and then from Android to Android via wifi.

而且还能帮助iOS设备进行更远距离的通信。

And like, still helps the iOS device communicate further.

而我现在最期待的是，这也是我目前花费最多时间进行测试和质量保证的部分。

And what I'm looking forward to the most right now, and that's been something that I've been spending my most time testing and QA QA testing.

这就是Android系统中的后台活动功能。

This is, the background activity for Android in Android.

你可以运用一些非常酷的技巧，让应用在后台保持极高的粘性。

You can do, no really cool tricks to make the app extremely sticky in the background.

这意味着，很快在Android上，你将能够启动这个应用。

That means, for Android soon, you'll be able to start the app.

即使你关闭了应用，它仍会作为笔记在后台运行，充当周围所有聊天设备的中继站。

And even if you close the app, it will still run-in the background as a note, as a kind of a relay for all the other, the chat devices around you.

这意味着你只需启动一次。

That means you just started once.

只要你不手动关闭它（当然你可以在设置里更改这个选项），它就会持续运行。

And as long as you don't manually close it, like you'll be able to, to change this in the settings, obviously it will just keep running.

这将大幅提升网格连接的能力。

And that's gonna boost, the mesh capabilities by a lot.

这也意味着你可以把设备放在口袋里四处走动。

It also means that you can run around with the device in your pocket.

如果有人靠近你，他们就能看到，嘿，现在附近有个带聊天功能的人，他们就能在不怎么耗电的情况下与你交谈。

And if someone's close to you, they'll be able to see that, Hey, now there is someone with the chat around me and they'll be able, able to talk to you without really using lots of your batteries.

所以你只需让它在后台持续运行。

So you just like, keep running this in background.

这让我有点联想到中本聪。

And it reminds me a bit of, Satoshi.

如果你读过马蒂·莫米和中本聪之间的邮件，他们在讨论比特币的早期版本，大概是零点几版之类的。

If you read the emails between Marty Momi and Satoshi where, they're discussing, you know, this is like Bitcoin zero point, whatever.

就像是在首次正式发布前，或者刚发布不久，马蒂·莫米和中本聪就在讨论是否应该移植到Linux系统。

It's like even the first, even before the first real release or just quickly after the, shortly after the first release, Marty Maomi and Satoshi are discussing whether they should port it or to Linux.

中本聪说，Linux确实不错，但目前优先级不高。

And Satoshi says, well, Linux is cool, but that's low priority right now.

我们首先要确保的是，当你关闭比特币客户端时，它会最小化到系统托盘（Windows系统下），关闭后仍能在后台运行，因为这将使节点数量增加约300%。

Let's first make sure that if you close Bitcoin, the clients that minimizes into tray and windows, like, you know, you close it, it still keeps running in the background because that's what, that's what's going to increase the note count by, like, 300%.

而正如他在邮件中所说，移植到Windows可能只会带来约5%的提升。

Whereas, you know, if porting it to Windows maybe by 5% or so, that's what he says in the email.

所以我认为我们即将对Bitchat采用同样的策略，确保应用只要不被显式关闭就会持续在后台运行。

So I think we're we're about to play the same trick for Bitchat, by making sure that the app just keeps running in the background as long as you don't close it explicitly.

嗯。

Yeah.

这对我来说很合理。

That makes sense to me.

并且相应地进行优先级排序。

And just prioritizing accordingly.

所有这些听起来都很棒。

All that all sounds awesome.

也就是说，你是那个五人非营利工程团队的一员对吧？团队还有Jack rabble、Alex和Jeff他们。

I mean, so you are part of like a, a five man nonprofit engineering team called and other stuff with Jack rabble, Alex, and Jeff.

没错。

That's right.

而且，可能最出名的项目就是BitChat了，虽然它其实不算正式产物，因为Jack大概只是随手搞的。

And, and probably the most famous project that has, you know, come out of it, which didn't really because I guess Jack kind of just vibe coated on the side was is bit chat.

他们最近因为Rabble要重启Vine的消息上了新闻。

They've recently made news waves on rabble's focus of a Vine reboot.

但另一个项目WhiteNoise在我们社区内也获得不少关注，但在更广泛的范围内还没像Divine和BitChat那样出名。

But the other piece, the other project that has been getting, at least within our community has been getting a decent amount of press, but not in the wider community, not like Divine and BitChat is white noise, which is a Nostril based signal alternative.

这是个基于Nostril的Signal替代品。

So encrypted messaging.

我是说，表面上看，它的使用场景和BitChat有很多重叠。

There's I mean, at the surface, there's a lot of overlap on use case with something like bit chat.

你们内部会讨论怎么看待每个项目吗？

Do you guys talk internally about how to think about each project?

比如，它们之间如何互补？

And like, how do are they complimentary to each other?

还是说其中一个最终会拥有更多.

That is it one is gonna end up with more users?

你们是怎么考虑这个问题的？

Like, how do you think about that?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

我们之间保持着非常密切的联系。

We we we're in close close contact.

我们经常讨论这些事情。

We talk about these things regularly.

从某种意义上说，我是白噪音的忠实粉丝，我认为像白噪音这样的产品是必需且必要的。

And so, I mean, in a sense, like, I I'm a big fan of white noise, and I think something like white noise is needed and necessary.

所以我非常看好它。

So I'm I'm a big bull very bullish on it.

不过在我看来，它们的应用场景其实相当不同。

The use cases, however, are fairly different in my mind.

所以我不认为它们是替代关系，更像是互补，但白噪音的核心价值在于能够随时随地安全地与任何人聊天。

So I I don't see, like, it could be complementary, but the utility of white noise is being able to securely chat to anyone everywhere.

对吧？

Right?

我们了解Signal的应用场景。

We know the use case of signal.

那正是它要取代的。

That's what it's supposed to replace.

你可以将某人添加为联系人，无论身处何地都能持续交流。

You can add someone as a concert and keep talking to them independent of where you are.

从这个角度看，Bitchat的使用场景完全不同。

The use case of Bitchat is like completely different in that sense.

我们也有基于通知的通讯功能，但相比白噪音，这只是非常初级的通知通讯。

Like we have also nostice based communication, but it's very primitive nostice based communication compared to white noise.

Bitchat对我们而言更像是定位'此刻谁在你身边'的工具。

Our use case for Bitchat is more who is around you right now.

你还不认识这些人，但就是想和他们聊聊。

And you don't know these people yet, but you still want to talk to them.

我最近在一次会议上演讲，人们在我演讲时就在讨论我的内容。

So I've been in a conference recently giving a talk and people were discussing my talk while I was giving the talk.

有人发给我一张截图，显示当时约有120人在BitChat的网状网络中讨论台上发生的事。

So someone sent me a screenshot of like 120 people or so in the BitChat mesh at that moment, discussing what's happening on stage.

要知道，你不需要和他们建立联系。

This is something, you know, you don't need to connect with them.

你不需要和他们交谈。

You don't need to talk to them.

你只是，只是直接连接到附近的任何人。

You just, you, you just directly connected to anyone close to you.

从这个意义上说，两者的重叠确实有限。

So in that sense, really, you know, the overlap is limited.

不过我想说，White Noise的做法，Jeff和他的团队构建White Noise的方式非常聪明，他们首先将其定位为一个协议。

However, I I wanna say like what white noise is doing, is like the the approach that Jeff and his team, have taken in building white noise is very smart in that they first, they formulate it as a protocol.

所以，我认为NIP xx改进协议提案描述了白噪声的工作原理，但他们也在开发Marmot库。

So there's the, I think the NIP x x improvement protocol proposal that describes how white noise works, but they've also working on the Marmot library.

这将是一个适用于TypeScript和Rust的模块，你可以直接引入自己的项目，使用他们移植到Nostr上的双棘轮加密算法。

So this is gonna be kind of a, for TypeScript and Rust, a module that you can just pull into your own project and make use of this double ratchet encryption algorithm that they have ported on to Nostr.

这意味着即使我们在Bitchat上使用Nostr进行通信，最终也可以利用白噪声库——当它们准备就绪时——来提供比我们现在更好的加密。

So that means even us using, you know, Nostr for communication on Bitchat, we could make use of the white noise libraries eventually when they are, you know, ready in order to provide like even better encryption than what we're doing right now.

目前我们使用的是17号加密来处理聊天消息。

Right now we're using the 17 encryption for the chat messages.

而且，你知道，如果白噪声可用，我们就会直接采用它。

And, you know, if white noise is there, we'll just we'll just use that.

这就是我们正在做的事情以及其他工作的总体思路。

So but this is the general theme for what we're doing with, and other stuff.

我们正在互相借鉴成果来改进所有这些产品，因为总体目标始终是同步向同一方向推进，构建本质上更协调的Nostr体验和产品。

We're kind of using each other's results to improve all these products that we're working on because the overall goal was always to move into the same direction in synchrony and built Noster experiences and products that are more, you know, coherent basically.

例如，Vine本身就将实现腰果系统。

So the vine itself, for example, is going to implement cashew.

白噪音很可能也会实现Cashew，因为我们正在紧密合作开发Cashew。

White noise also is probably also implement cashew because we're working on cashew closely together.

Bitchat将集成白噪音库，使通信更加实用。

Bitchat will implement, white noise libraries to make communication more useful.

甚至Cashew钱包也能利用白噪音库，比如在你想通过Nostr发送电子现金时。

Hell, even Cashew wallets can make use of, white noise libraries in, you know, in cases where you want to send e cash over Nostice, for example.

因此，在这个群体中存在许多协同效应，这都归功于我们持续交流并努力相互支持，确保每个人都能开发出最好的软件。

So there's, there's lots of synergies in that sense, in that group and all due to the fact that we constantly talk to each other and try to support each other by making sure that everyone builds the best software possible.

我们可以共同创造一个连贯的Nostr体验，因为这是Nostr长期以来所欠缺的。

And we can create like a cohesive Nostril experience together because that's what Nostril was lacking for way too long before.

以前每个人都在各行其是。

So that everyone is doing their own thing.

虽然Nostr上诞生了许多美好惊艳的作品，但感觉我们同时在多个方向上扩张。

And it's like beautiful and amazing things are being produced on roster, but it felt like, you know, we're we're expanding in multiple directions at the same time.

而对于AOS等项目，我们正尝试组建团队，然后朝着同一方向前进。

Whereas for AOS for and other stuff, we're kind of trying to make a group and then move together in direction.

我认为，我们目前构建的这些成果已经很好地证明了我们做得相当不错。

And I think, you know, the things that we've been currently building show that we're doing pretty well so far.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，开放协议的真正力量在于其可互操作性的复合效应，这一点我们在比特币上已经大规模见证过了。

I mean, the, like, the true power of open protocols is is, you know, the compounding interoperability, which we've we've we've seen at scale with Bitcoin.

但在Nastor上还有待观察。

It's yet to be seen with Nastor.

现在还处于非常早期的阶段。

It's like very early days.

不过你是否同意我的看法，如果让我总结你刚才所说的，至少目前来看，bit chat和white noise的区别在于bit chat更侧重于临时性通讯？

But would you agree with me that like, so like, I see, like, if I would distill what you said about at least right now, the differences between something like bit chat and white noise is is bit chat is focused more on a femoral communication.

也就是说，按需的、无固定身份的通讯方式，可能更侧重于群体临时通讯，而white noise则更专注于固定身份的一对一通讯。

So like on demand, no fixed identity kind of communication, and probably even more focused on, like, group of femoral communication, while white noise is more focused on fixed identity, one to one communication.

当然，未来也会考虑加入群组功能。

Obviously, want to add groups too.

我认为它们至少在早期阶段就已经支持这些功能了。

I think they already support them at least in a early stage.

但在竞争方面，它更像是Telegram或Signal。

But it's more similar to like a telegram or like a signal in terms of competition.

但你难道不同意吗？对我来说，圣杯般的应用是既能提供White Noise的功能，又能在互联网中断时通过网状网络通信，还能支持位置群组、临时性内容，同时也能处理固定身份信息。

But would you not agree that like, to me, like the holy grail is like an app that gives me the white noise functionality, but then also can communicate via mesh if the Internet's down and can do location groups and can do a femoral stuff, can also do fixed identity stuff.

就像，所有这些功能都集成在一个应用里。

Like, this all becomes one app.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，它们都是开放协议。

At some point, I mean, they're both open protocols.

在某个时间点，总会有一个应用能整合所有功能。

At one point at some point, there this is gonna be one app that has all the functionality.

不。

No.

我很希望能看到这样的产品。

I I would like to see that.

从产品角度来看，关键在于明确你的目标，这样才能吸引真正对特定功能感兴趣的用户。

It's just like, you know, from a product perspective, you just wanna be clear about why you're doing what so that you can attract those users who are interested in that specific thing.

因此，这个过程应该循序渐进地推进。

So this is a process that should be taken step by step in that sense.

不过，我完全赞同你关于每个独立项目专注方向的看法。

However, you know, I agree with everything that you said with the focus that each individual project is taking on.

但为了更清晰地说明我对Bitchat和白噪音的理解：我认为白噪音是使用Nocer作为传输层的通信协议。

However, like to make the contrast more clear about how I see Bitchat and white noise is for me, white noise is a communication protocol that is that uses Nocer as the transport.

而在我看来Vichette是一种新型传输层。

Whereas Vichette in my view is a new transport.

这是我们试图通过网状网络构建的新型基础设施。

It's a new type of infrastructure that we're trying to build with the mesh.

这有点像比较提供互联网服务的不同电缆。

And it's kind of like comparing the, the cables that provide your internet.

对吧？

Right?

所以，你在互联网上使用的应用程序。

So the, the, with the application that you're using on the internet.

Bitchat就像铺设新基础设施轨道的电缆，用于在其上传输消息，而White Noise则是确保这些消息正确加密和安全的方法。

So Bitchat is like the cables where we're laying out new infrastructure rails in order to send messages on to, on top of, whereas white noise is a way to make sure that these messages are correctly encrypted and secure.

因此你可以想象一个未来场景：我们在Bitchat中使用White Noise协议，因为Bitchat可以提供传输这些数据包的轨道——即White Noise数据包——而不必依赖互联网。

So you could imagine a future where we use the white noise protocol in Bitchat because Bitchat can provide the rails to transport these packets, the white noise packets on top of instead of using the internet.

从这个意义上说，可能会有更多互补利用的方式。

So in that sense, there could be more ways to find complimentary ways of making use of each other.

我再举个例子。

I'll give another example.

目前我们正在开发Cashew，大多数Cashew应用仅使用普通互联网进行相互通信和交易。

Currently, like, we're working on cashew and most, you know, most cashew apps use just pure normal internet to talk to each other and to commence.

而且，如果你想现在向他人发送电子现金，最流行的方式是通过手机扫描二维码，这意味着你使用的是二维码硬件光信号到相机的传输方式——本质上并未使用互联网。

And, if you want to send e cash from one person to another currently, you know, many, the most popular ways to scan a QR code from one phone to another, that means you're using a transport that is kind of the QR code hardware lights to camera so that, you know, you're not using the internet.

你也没有使用网状网络。

You're not using the mesh either.

不过，你也可以利用网状网络来发送现金代币。

However, you could use the mesh to send the cashier token as well.

这正是我们一直在演示的——将现金系统整合到BitChat中，BitChat能提供底层网状基础设施来传输各类数据。

And that's what we've been, demoing also with integrating cashier into BitChat is BitChat can provide the mesh underlying mesh infrastructure to send all sorts of data around.

这些数据可以是普通消息。

And this data can be normal messages.

可以是白噪音消息，也可以是电子现金。

It could be white noise messages, but it also can be e cash.

因此你也能用BitChat进行支付。

And so you can use BitChat to make payments as well.

至少我是这么理解的。

That's how I see it at least.

嗯，我认为Kashi协议和Nostril协议的酷炫之处——或者说其中一个亮点在于，它们都是传输媒介中立的协议。

Well, I mean, the cool part of both the Kashi protocol and the Nostril protocol in my well, one of the cool parts in my opinion is that they're both transport transport neutral protocols.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，你甚至可以用信鸽来发送Noster便签，如果你想的话。

I mean, we could you can send a Noster note via carrier pigeon if you wanted to.

虽然扩展性不会太好。

It wouldn't scale very well.

但归根结底，这不过是签名数据罢了。

But at the end of the day, it's just signed data.

同理，cashew也是一样的。

And I mean, same with cashew.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我完全可以通过一个拿着打印纸条在街上跑的信使，用cashew给别人付款。

Like, I could just pay someone with cashew through, a messenger that's just running down the street with a printed out piece of paper.

或者一张纸也行。

Or a piece of paper.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

所以，确实感觉我们正在构建一整套技术栈。

So, yeah, it really feels like we're building an entire stack.

现在我们正在构建一整套技术栈。

Now we're building an entire stack.

对吧？

Right?

就像我们最初从比特币开始，但现在我们正在做的事情包括铺设通信线路，甚至发明新的加密协议，以确保信息能以安全的方式传递。

Like, we started with Bitcoin, but we're now working on like laying out the cables up until like inventing new encryption protocols to get messages, send messages around in a secure way.

这真是令人振奋。

It's great to see.

基本上，这就是我们曾被承诺但尚未实现的《雪崩》式未来。

It's this, it's the snow crash future we were promised, but didn't materialize yet, basically.

嗯，结果发现我们需要付诸行动。

Well, turns out we need to do the work.

谁能想到呢？

Who would have thunk it?

所以，我觉得这是个很好的过渡点，那么Cashew项目最近有什么进展吗？

So, I mean, I think this is a good trans transition point here is, like, so what's what's been going on with Cashew?

我们有什么重大更新吗？

Have we had any significant updates?

看起来这个项目进展相当缓慢。

I mean, it seems like it's a project that moves quite slowly.

你们很少发布新内容。

You guys are rarely shipping things.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们更倾向于讨论而不是发布更新。

We're we're like, we're rather we'd like to talk about things instead of shipping updates.

不。

No.

我是说，我不确定大家是否都听出了你语气中的讽刺，但我们确实非常专注于Cashew项目的推进，而且进展非常顺利。

I mean, I don't know if if everyone got the the the how do say the sarcasm in your voice there, but we are very focused on shipping and cashew, and it's been going great.

嗯。

Yeah.

明确地说，这可能是我见过的最快推进的项目之一。

To be clear, it is probably one of the most it's probably the fastest shipping project that I have ever witnessed.

快得几乎让人跟不上节奏。

It's almost it's almost impossible to keep up with.

嗯，感谢你这么说。

Well, thank you for that.

这要归功于加入项目的那些出色的贡献者们。

And like, that's the the reason for that is the amazing contributors who joined the project.

现在有很多人在为Cashew工作，无论是台前还是幕后。我们有一支充满激情、超级热忱的比特币爱好者团队，成员背景各异，他们都在某个时刻加入了这个项目，因为他们真心相信比特币需要被广泛用作货币，并渗透到这个数字世界的每个角落。

So there's like many people working on cashew, in the foreground and in the background, we have a crazy motivated art, super enthusiastic team of Bitcoiners, of very different backgrounds who are like all joined the project at some point, because they truly believe that Bitcoin needs to be used as money everywhere and to penetrate into every single pour of this digital world.

这就是我们为什么要致力于电子现金，因为我们认为它最具潜力，能让比特币渗透到数字世界的每一个角落。

And that is what, why we want to work on e cash because we think that it gives like the, it has the most potential to work, like to, to, you know, for Bitcoin to penetrate through every single crack, of the digital world.

我这么说是什么意思呢？

And what do I mean by that?

我的意思是，电子现金本身就是一种超级高效轻量的交易方式，无需创建账户，也无需担心隐私问题，因为一切都能神奇地自动运作，使用时几乎能享受完美的隐私保护。

I mean, e cash itself is is super efficient lightweight way of transacting with each other without having to create accounts and without having to, take care of your privacy because everything just works magically for you and you have you enjoy almost perfect privacy when you use it.

团队一直专注于这方面。

And we've been focused in the team.

我们重点投入了大量精力，首先确保构建一个规范明确的协议。

We've been focusing a lot on, first of all, making sure that we built a protocol with well defined specs.

这样任何人都能验证我们的工作，并可以根据需要从头开始实现所有内容。

So anyone can verify our work and implement everything from scratch if they wanted to.

但我们也为其他开发者构建工具和库。

But we also build tooling and libraries for other developers.

因此，我们的大部分工作实际上都投入到了能产生倍增效应的领域。

So most of our work basically goes into, areas of work that can multiply our impact.

所以，我们不开发应用程序。

So, we don't build apps.

我们开发库供他人构建应用程序。

We built libraries for others to build apps.

到目前为止，说实话，我都很难统计有多少个简易钱包了。

So far, I mean, it's hard for me to keep track of how many casual wallets are there.

感觉上——我不想显得自大——但感觉现金钱包的数量已经和比特币钱包不相上下了，因为每周都有人推出新的现金钱包。

There are, it feels like, I don't want to sound cocky, but it feels like there are as many cash wallets as Bitcoin wallets as well, because every week there's someone new comes around and says, like, built a cash wallet, here it is.

随着AI的出现和普及，情况变得更加疯狂，我们正大力投入工具开发和文档编写，确保其AI友好性。

And with the emergence and uptake of AI, it's getting even crazier to witness how many products are being rolled out because we're investing heavily into the tooling itself and documentation to make sure that it is also AI friendly, basically.

我们几天前刚开过开发者会议，顺便说下这是每月例行的。

So, we've had a, we've just had a dev call just a couple of days ago, which we have monthly by the way.

任何从事或使用现金相关开发的人都应该参加我们的开发者会议。

So anyone working on cash or with cash, you should definitely join our dev calls.

会议通常在每月最后一个星期四UTC时间16点举行。

It usually happened on the last Thursday of every month at sixteen UTC.

通常你可以在相关频道等地方找到所有信息。

You can find all the information usually in the channels and so on.

但每次开发电话会议都充满令人难以置信的乐观氛围。

But in these dev calls, every single one of those dev calls is insanely bullish.

参加这些开发会议简直太疯狂了，因为你能看到大家正在开发的各种项目。

It's crazy to be at these dev calls because you see all these different projects that people are working on.

我们会讨论每个月发生的所有事情。

And we talk about all the, all those things that happen each month.

每个月都有这么多事情发生，这让我感到非常震撼。

And it kind of blows my mind how much is happening every single month.

最近几个月，尤其是从未编程过的人们开发的钱包数量激增，我记得在上次全员电话会议中，就有三四个人开场白是'大家好，我叫某某，我从未编程过，但这是我开发的可用的现金钱包'。

And in recent months, the number of wallets that have been popping out up from people, especially people who have never coded before, like we have had, I think three or four people in the last staff call that started their introduction with, Hey, my name is so and so I've never quoted before, but here's a working cashew audit.

看到如今人们拥有如此强大的自主能力，真是令人惊叹。

And, it's just amazing to see how much, agency people have these days.

只要你提供必要的工具——当然这些工具包括AI，还有我们迄今为止准备的所有开发库。

If you provide the necessary tools, obviously the tools are AI, but also all the libraries that we've prepared so far.

你可以真切地看到人们想要构建比特币相关的东西。

And you can really see that people want to build Bitcoin stuff.

这其实并不是为了套现，对吧？

It is like, it's not really about cashing, right?

我们希望让比特币变得触手可及，并将提供非常简便的方式来构建比特币应用，让你可以即装即用，而不必绑定任何单一公司——我必须要说明这点，因为还有其他一些库我也推荐大家去了解。

We want to make Bitcoin accessible and it is gonna make very easy, provide very easy ways to build Bitcoin apps, that you can just like start using and without having to commit to a single company, I should also say, because there are also other libraries that I also recommend to people to check out.

你可以在Liquid网络上构建应用。

You can build things on liquids.

你也可以在Spark等平台上开发，但使用这些平台时，你相当于选择了与特定实体绑定。

You can build things on spark and so on, but with all of these, you kind of dedicate, like making a decision to be with this entity.

而Cashew更像是草根运动，有很多铸币厂可供选择。

With cashew is just like a grassroots, you know, there are many mints to choose from.

你可以运行自己的铸币节点。

You can run your own mint.

如果你具备技术基础，只需十五分钟就能搭建一个铸币厂——如果你有社区，可以为社区启动服务，人们能真正拥有整个技术栈。

It's that takes like a fifteen minutes to set up a mint if you're technically inclined and you can just, if you have a community, you can spin up for that community and people truly own the entire stack.

如果你想构建一个完全自主掌控的技术栈，或者你根本不想操心后端，只想开发一个钱包应用，让用户自行选择使用哪个铸币服务。

And if you want to build on something where you own the entire stack, or you just don't want to care about the backend and you just wanna build a wallet and make it like, let the user decide which mint they use.

你只需使用casual库就能直接构建。

You can just use a casual library and just build it.

所以很高兴看到，我们的交付速度惊人，这正是我们专注的方向。

And so it's great to see, the, the shipping is crazy and that's exactly what we're focusing on.

这正是我们一直期待的愿景，也是未来将持续聚焦的领域。

Exactly what we always wanted to see and exactly what we're going to focus on in the future.

我们不说空话。

We don't talk.

我们只管交付。

We just ship.

只要我们保持这种节奏，持续添加功能，不断迭代软件。

And as long as we keep doing that, we keep adding features, we keep rolling on software.

就会看到越来越多的人加入这个生态系统并开始构建。

We'll still see more and more people join the ecosystem and start building.

对吧？

Right?

我想我们都同意比特币开发者的数量需要大幅增加。

I think we both agree that the number of Bitcoin developers needs to go up significantly.

比特币就像是世界级的庞然大物，已经在互联网上占据主导地位。

Bitcoin is like the world class ginormous asset that dominates the internet already.

而我们为这个庞大项目配备的开发者数量，与项目规模相比简直微不足道，对吧？

And the number of developers that we have for this immense project is tiny in comparison to what what's, what's on our shoulders, right?

我们肩负的重量级责任令人难以置信，但从事比特币开发的人数与之相比却少得可怜。

The, the, the, the weight on our shoulders is insane, but the number of people working on Bitcoin is tiny compared to it.

就像把我们和杰克·多尔西的公司比较一下。

Like just compare us to let's compare us to block Jack Dorsey's company.

没错。

Right.

那家公司有1万名员工，1万名员工。但从事比特币相关工作的人数甚至不到1千人，这还不包括教育工作者、比特币营销人员，更不用说开发者了。

That company has 10,000 employees, 10,000 there aren't, there aren't like, no, thousand people working on Bitcoin, not even like on the entirety of anyone working like educators, people doing like marketing for Bitcoin or let alone the developers.

我们甚至远远达不到那个规模。

We're not even close to that.

所以在参与人数方面，我们甚至无法与任何一家标普500公司竞争。

So we can't even compete with a single S and P 500 company in terms of number of people working on it.

这种情况必须改变。

And that is something that must change.

必须改变，因为我们不像公司那样可以直接去招聘人才，或者开出高薪就能吸引硅谷最优秀的工程师。

It needs to change because we cannot like is we're not a company where we can just go out and hire people, or, you know, say like, this is the salary and I'll just take the best engineers in Silicon Valley.

不，我们不是这样的。

No, it's not.

这是一个开源项目。

It's an open source project.

我们的成长方式是通过开源倡议——敞开大门、保持开放态度、传播关于比特币开发工作的理念，让那些有能力的世界级工程师自主决定：'我要拒绝硅谷公司的工作机会'。

And the, how we grow is through open source initiatives being, you know, opening the doors, being inviting, spreading the word, about like how it is to work on Bitcoin so that, competent and world class engineers out there can make this decision for themselves to decide, you know what, I'm going to say no to this job offer from this Silicon Valley company.

我要把时间投入到建设和改进这个互联网货币上。

I'm going to dedicate my time into building out and improving this, the money of the internet.

因此，这就是我们的主要目标，或者说北极星目标，即提供更多途径让更多人接触比特币，确保比特币发展壮大并取得成功。

And so that's, that's what our primary, you know, North star goal, if you like, is, is to provide you more ways to get more people into Bitcoin, to make sure that Bitcoin grows and Bitcoin is successful.

目前进展非常顺利。

And it's going great so far.

现金生态系统中的许多开发者此前从未接触过比特币。

Lots of developers in the cash ecosystem have never worked with Bitcoin before.

而他们首次接触比特币就是通过cashew，因为我们让它变得简单、有趣、吸引人，你知道，这是一种神奇的体验，无论是使用还是基于它开发，都令人赞叹。

And the first time that they work with Bitcoin is through cashew because we make it easy, fun, inviting, and, you know, kind of magic experience to use it and to build on it and and, you know, just great to see.

我还没... 你有什么想法？

So I haven't, What what are your thoughts?

我的意思是，把这两个话题结合起来，你如何看待cashew与BitChat的整合预期？

I mean, just to bring the two those two topics together, what are your thoughts on how you expect cash you to be integrate integrated into BitChat?

目前，显然你可以将Cashew发送到任何地方。

Right now, I mean, obviously, you can send Cashew anywhere.

Cashew的酷炫之处在于，任何能发送消息的地方，就能发送Cashew代币。

The cool part about Cashew is anywhere you can send a message, can send a Cashew token.

对吧？

Right?

就是复制粘贴那么简单。

It's just copy paste.

但从长远来看，你觉得像BitChat这样的平台会如何实现这种整合？

But long term, like, how do you see that integration on something like BitChat playing out?

对于BitChat，我们已经演示了我们愿景的第一步——将现金钱包集成到BitChat中，让BitChat用户拥有一个感觉像闪电钱包的比特币钱包，可以自主选择运营的铸币厂。

So for BitChat, we've already demoed kind of like what our step one of our vision will be is we're going to integrate a cash wallet into BitChat itself so that users of BitChat just have a, like, a Bitcoin wallet that feels like a lightning wallet where they can choose the mint that they wanna run.

最终，我们还希望——这其实我们已经实现了——在聊天界面内直接集成比特币钱包功能，用户可以直接进行支付操作。

Eventually, we'd also like to, you know, this is something that we've already built and, you you'll have a Bitcoin wallet inside the chat itself, and you'll be able to make payments.

BitChat为我们提供了钱包间通信的便捷渠道。

Bitchat gives us an easy way to communicate between wallets.

比如说，这将是在商店里面对面转账给他人最便捷的方式。

So it would be like the easiest way basically to send someone Bitcoin who's just standing right across you in the store, for example.

不需要扫描二维码，什么都不需要。

No scanning of QR codes, no nothing.

你看，我和奥德尔在同一个房间里。

You just like, you see, I'm in the same room with Odell.

我看到你出现在我的屏幕上，因为我们通过蓝牙连接。

I see you pop up in my, on my screen because we are connected via Bluetooth.

我发送了'嘿'，你收到了钱。

I sent, hey, you received the money.

完成了。

It's done.

无需注册，无需账户。

No registration, no accounts.

所以这对那个使用场景来说是完美的。

So it's it's perfect for that use case.

那与临时身份是如何配合的呢？

How does that work with, like, ephemeral identities though?

比如，我在梅西百货。

Like, I'm in Macy's.

哦，就像我自己在Vidgeta一样。

Oh, like, in Vidgeta myself.

其他人假装是Odell。

Other people pretending to be Odell.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

在BitTad里，我可以...你可以收藏一个联系人吗？

I can I can in BitTad, you can favorite a contact?

所以一旦我确认你是Odell，iOS上还有这个功能（安卓暂时没有），你可以通过扫描对方屏幕上的二维码来验证用户身份。

So once I know that you are Odell, there's also in iOS, this is not yet an Android, but you can also do like a verification of the of the other user by scanning a QR code on their screen.

这样我们就能互相收藏，之后就没人能冒充你了。

So like we can favorite each other, and then no one can pretend to be you.

基本上，只要我确认是你。

Basically, once I know it's you.

所以尽管身份是临时的且会轮换，但收藏功能可以跨越这一点。

So even though the identities are femoral and rotating the favorites cross that.

没错。

That's right.

因此，你的蓝牙部分有一个静态身份标识。

So there is a, there is a, there is a static identity for your Bluetooth part.

另外，如果你想在Nostril上使用私信功能，但在BitChat中我们有一系列不同的身份。

And there is another, if you want for the, DMs over Nostril as well, but like in BitChat, we have a host of different identities.

所有那些你只是随机与人交谈的身份都是短暂且会轮换的，但你也可以选择与你想要长期联系的人保持一个静态身份。

All the ones where you just like talk to random people, they're kind of ephemeral and rotate, but you can also choose to have a, have a static identity with the people that you want to connect to, on the long run.

所以它会看起来像传统钱包的界面，就在那个里面。

So it's gonna look like a traditional wallet interface, like within that.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这这就像是第一步。

That's that's like the first step.

最终我们也希望，比如区域性的、物理上邻近的社区能够轻松运行他们自己的Mint。

Eventually we would also like, communities of, you know, regional, let's say like physically, communities in a physical proximity to be able to run their own Mint very easily.

这是个稍大的挑战，因为运行Mint意味着需要能够提供基础设施。

That's a bit of a bigger challenge because running Mint means that you need to be able to provide infrastructure.

这也是我们在fashion本身正在研究的方向——即按需Mint，你可以在为你运行的服务器上快速部署Mint，但比特币后端由你自己提供。

That is something that we're also working on in fashion itself, which is like kind of on demand Mint where you can spin up a Mint somewhere on a server that is run for you, but you provide the the Bitcoin backend, basically you yourself.

所以要么你自带闪电网络节点，要么使用类似Spark这样的服务——或者Liquid，它们都默认提供闪电网络支持。

So either you bring your own Lightning node or you use a different service like Spark, for example, where, or or Liquid where Lightning kind of is provided out of the box.

但让本地社区管理自己的本地银行业务，是我们这个集体及其他相关项目的目标之一。

But, giving, like, local communities to manage their own local banking is one is one of the goals that we have also in, you know, in the collective of and other stuff.

这也是我们希望为NOSTO社区提供的功能之一。

This is one of the goals that we would like to be able to offer to, for example, NOSTO communities as well.

因此NOSTO社区也应该能平等地运行自己的Mint，从而为不想维护基础设施的成员提供比特币或现金通道。

So a NOSTO community should also be able to run their own Mint evenly so that they can provide, like, Bitcoin rails or cashew rails to their to their members who don't want to run the infrastructure.

这就是中继服务器的一个特点

So that is one thing Relays are

中继服务器相对容易运行

relays are relatively easy to run.

这是它们的一个很酷的地方

That's one of the cool parts about them.

但对于铸币厂来说，难点在于闪电网络部分确实很棘手

But with with mints, the hard part is is the really hard part is the lightning piece.

对吧？

Right?

关键在于闪电网络节点基础设施和流动性

It's the lightning node infrastructure and liquidity.

对吧？

Right?

是的

Yeah.

我们针对这个问题有一个解决方案，得益于比特币本身的最新进展，运行缓存会变得越来越容易，很快就能实现。

We have a we have a solution for that due to like the recent advancements in Bitcoin itself, it becomes easier and easier to run a cache and then soon.

因此，我们有一个Spark的实际应用案例，你可以将Spark作为缓存事件的闪电网络后端，这非常棒，因为Spark提供的隐私保护虽然有限，但对Cashew来说反而是优势，因为它为铸币厂提供了一种加密安全的方式来展示储备金证明，而这在闪电网络中是无法实现的。

So, we have a working, example of spark where you can use spark as lightning backend for a cache event, which is great because spark, the poor privacy that spark offers is actually a plus for cashew because it gives the mint, kind of a cryptographically safe way to, show proof of reserves, which is impossible with lightning.

所以，我们已经，我们已经

So we've, we've

构建了，那基本上就像一个固定的树皮地址。

built And that's just like a fixed bark address basically.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yeah.

就像我们填充铸币厂那样，每个人都能看到铸币厂里的动态，比如资金的流入和流出。

Like we fill the mint where everyone can kind of see what's happening in the mint, like the, the, the funds coming in and out of the mint.

显然，铸币厂本身为用户提供了近乎完美的隐私，但铸币厂本身需要保持可观察性。

Obviously the mint itself provides like almost perfect privacy to the users, but the mint itself wants to be observable.

这样每个人都可以指着它说，嘿，里面还有钱。

So everyone can like point to it and say like, Hey, there's still money in there.

因此，Spark是一种仅需极薄基础设施层就能运行铸币厂的方式。

So Spark is one way of running a mint with just extremely thin layer of infrastructure.

而且，这真的很酷。

And it's, it's really cool.

我亲眼见过。

I've seen it myself.

运行铸币厂本身超级简单。

Like running the mint itself is super easy.

铸币厂是一个简单的软件。

A mint is simple software.

它几乎就像一个nostril中继器一样简单。

It's like almost as dumb as a, as a nostril relay.

它只是，你知道的，防止电子现金代币的双重花费。

It just, you know, prevents double spending of the e cash tokens.

基本上就是这样。

That's basically it.

它还提供了一种通过闪电网络后端或链上后端进出铸币厂的方式。

And it provides a way to go in and out of the mint using their lightning backend or the on chain backend.

而这部分传统上一直是运行铸币厂最困难的部分，因为你需要维护自己的闪电网络节点。

And that part has traditionally been the most, you know, the hardest part from running a Mint because you need to take care of your Lightning node.

但有了Spark或Arc，我们可以提供，比如，闪电网络基础设施可以由其他人来维护。

But with that, with Spark or with Arc as well, we can provide, like, the Lightning infrastructure can be provided by someone else.

所以运行铸币厂本身就变成了只需运行铸币软件，而不需要做更多的事情。

So running the Mint itself just becomes running the Mint software itself and nothing more than that.

这样你就可以像那样建立一个铸币厂。

That way you can set up a Mint like that.

或者像你的Arc运营商那样运行实际的闪电网络节点。

Or like your arc operator is running the actual lightning node.

所以你不需要处理闪电网络的基础设施。

So you don't have to deal with the lightning infrastructure.

没错。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

使用Spark确实很神奇。

And it's fascinating using spark Yeah.

为了

For the

是啊。

Yeah.

这真的很酷。

It's, it's really cool.

因为这是闪电网络无法实现的部分，我们有方法通过电子现金进行负债证明，证明铸币厂没有超发资金。

Because that's been the, you know, the part that is not possible with lightning because we, we have a way to do proof of liabilities on e cash, by, you know, proving that the mint hasn't issued more funds that it received.

然而，储备证明部分，即负债证明对电子现金来说极其困难，但至少在理论上已经解决，只是我们目前还缺乏足够的动力去实际构建这一基础设施，因为储备证明取决于你能否同时证明你持有多少比特币。

However, the proof of reserves part, the proof of liability is super hard for e cash, but it's kind of like at least, theoretically solved, but we didn't have much motivation to build it out yet and to really build the infrastructure for it because the proof of reserve part depends on whether you can also prove how much Bitcoin you have.

而在闪电网络中，这几乎是不可能的。

And with lightning, that is kind of impossible.

你必须使用链上比特币作为铸币厂的储备，才能证明铸币厂持有多少比特币。

You would have to use on chain Bitcoin for the mint in order to prove how much Bitcoin the mint has.

所以这一直是该功能的一个阻碍。

So that's been a kind of a blocker for that feature.

现在我们开始与Spark合作，这意味着储备证明可以免费实现了。

Now that we also started working with spark, that means like prove reserves is for free.

我们只需指向Spark地址，就能准确看到铸币厂持有多少比特币。

We can just point to the spark address and you see exactly how much Bitcoin the mint has.

而负债证明则是我们之前设计好的部分。

And then prove liabilities is, you know, what we've designed before.

这两部分信息结合起来，就能证明铸币厂没有在实行部分准备金制度。

And those two pieces of information together can prove that the mint is not running fractional reserve.

现在这变得比以往任何时候都容易多了。

And that's becoming, you know, much easier now than it has ever been.

我得说，关于负债证明这部分，我们已经构建了类似alpha版本，但都还没部署，因为我们当时还没准备好。

I just say, you know, we haven't, you know, the proof of liabilities part, we have built like alpha versions of that, but none of it is deployed yet because we just weren't there.

我认为Spark技术真的能再次大幅推动其采用率。

I think things with Spark can, you know, really boost boost adoption of it again.

这太有意思了。

That's fascinating.

是啊。

Yeah.

应该会很有意思。

It should be interesting to see.

Spark和Arc都还处于非常早期的阶段，而且他们正在对Spark的运行方式做一些调整，目前显然非常中心化。

It's still very early days with both Spark and Arc, and know they're making some changes on how Spark is being run, and it's obviously very centralized.

Arc对我来说有点难以概念化理解。

Arc to me is a little bit harder for me to conceptualize.

我是说，我和Alex专门做过一期节目讨论Arc。

And I mean, I had a whole episode with Alex be talking about arc.

但实际上如果我回去听那些节目，理论上是在讨论闪电网络。

But I actually if I go back and listen to the episodes, was theoretically talking about lightning.

直到我自己运行闪电网络节点并亏钱之前，我都没真正理解它。

I didn't really understand lightning until I was running a lightning node and losing money.

就像，是的，我必须通过亲手实践来学习。

Like, yeah, I gotta learn by like, actually, like holding the thing in my hands.

所以我认为现在还处于非常早期的阶段。

So I think it's still very early days.

但这确实非常、非常、非常令人振奋。

But it's really it's, it's, it's incredibly bullish.

这个...我会把Cashu也归入其中，虽然原因不同。

That and I would I would group cash you in here for different reasons.

但Cashu、Arc、Spark这些创新，它们不需要对比特币协议进行实际修改就能实现，这种快速迭代给了我很大希望。

But cash you arc spark, like these innovations that are happening without actual protocol changes to the Bitcoin protocol, they're just shipping things is is gives me a lot of hope.

在不改变比特币底层共识机制的情况下我们能实现这些，确实令人印象深刻，因为这本身就极其困难。

It's it's, it's impressive what we can do without actually changing underlying consensus things on Bitcoin, because that is, you know, incredibly difficult.

我的意思是，这有其充分的理由。

I mean, for good reason.

这就是当压力足够大时会发生的情况。

This is this is what happens if the pressure is strong is if the pressure is strong enough.

对吧？

Right?

就像你有一群想研究比特币的聪明人，但边界条件非常严格。

Like you have a bunch of smart people who wanna work with Bitcoin and the boundary conditions are very tight.

我们在比特币上能进行的交易数量非常有限，但凡有点脑子的人都知道一层扩容根本行不通，任何区块链都需要上层协议才能提供足够的吞吐量。

The number of transactions that we can do on Bitcoin are very limited and everyone with like more than three brain cells knows that L one scaling is, is just, is not going to work and no blockchain can provide enough throughput without layers on top of it.

而且不管那些唱反调的人怎么忽悠你。

And like, even like, it doesn't matter what the shit corners will tell you.

这根本行不通。

It's just not working.

就像这已经显而易见到我们在比特币圈里都不再讨论这个问题了，因为我们知道区块链本身无法扩展。

Like it's so trivial that we don't even talk about this anymore in Bitcoin because we know that blockchains don't scale.

所以当压力足够大时，人们总会找到方法。

And so if the pressure is strong enough, people will find ways.

这就是为什么我认为吸引人才加入我们的领域如此重要，因为所有这些创新最初都只是某个人的灵光一现。

That's why I think it's so important that we have, that we attract people into our space because all these things are just like single people's ideas.

我还清楚记得Burak提出arc方案时的情形，那甚至不是由他本人实现的。

I remember exactly how Burak proposed arc and that one single person who didn't even build it.

对。

Right.

她只是把这个想法抛了出来。

She just like threw out the idea out there.

没错。

Right.

就这样，像引发了一整波后续的创新浪潮。

Just cause, like a whole wave of innovation that just comes afterwards.

所以就像一个人的想法可以改变一切。

So it's like the ideas of a single person can change everything.

这就是事实。

And this is it's it is the truth.

因此我们需要吸引这些人加入我们的领域，以确保我们能继续保持这种创新方式。

So we need to attract these people into our space to make sure that we can, like, keep innovating in the in the in the same fashion as we do.

嗯。

Yeah.

我同意。

I agree.

我的意思是，顺着这个话题，你刚才提到分层扩展，以及我们之前关于Bitchat的讨论，我不知道你在推广中参与了多少。

I mean, so on that note, and you're just scaling in layers, and to our earlier conversation about Bitchat, I don't know how involved you were in the promotion.

我是说，你肯定参与了推广，但在细节方面，不过从cashew项目中已经产生了这个关于cash for signal采用cashew的提案。

I mean, were definitely involved in the promotion of it, but in the in the details, but out of the cashew project has come this proposal for cash for signal to adopt cashew.

这相当酷。

It's pretty cool.

你对此有何看法？

How how are you thinking about that?

是的，我们已经启动了一项宣传活动。

So, yeah, that's we've started a a campaign.

这大约是一个月前开始的，目前仍在进行中。

This is probably a month ago or so, and still going on.

它更多是被视为一项教育活动。

And it was more, thought as an educational campaign.

这个活动名为'Signal比特币计划'，你可以在bitcoinforsignal.org上查看详情。

So it's called Bitcoin for signal and you can check it out on bitcoinforsignal.org.

最初源于一个黑客马拉松项目，一些Cashu开发者将Cashew钱包集成到了iOS和Android版的Signal中。

And it started with a, with a hackathon project where, some, some cashier devs have integrated a cashew wallet into signal for iOS and for Android.

但大多数人不知道的是，Signal内置了一种垃圾币叫MobileCoin，根本没人用。

And most people don't know this, but signal has a shit coin built in it's called mobile coin and no one uses it.

根本没人关心它。

No one cares about it.

这完全是一场灾难，而Signal已经带着这个包袱走了很长时间。

It's a complete disaster and signal just carries it along for a long time already.

这就像一个大问题，亲爱的，为什么这种垃圾币会被集成到Signal里？Signal内置了完整的钱包功能，用户体验相当不错。

And it's just like a big question, my dear, why is this shit coin integrated into signal and signal like, but, you know, signal has a full built in wallet integrated that you can use to, you know, the, the UX is pretty good.

我可以在Signal上和你聊天，而且就在聊天界面里。

I can talk to you on signal and it's in the chat.

我可以给你发一些Mobile Coin的垃圾币。

I can send you some mobile coin shit coins.

很明显，Mobile Coin到底是什么？

And obviously that what is mobile coin?

谁在乎Mobile Coin？

Who cares about mobile coin?

没人在乎。

No one.

所以我们（或者说Cash开发者们）所做的，主要是Simple Kid、Law of First和Soup Master的功劳。

So what we've done or what like cashew devs have done, and this was like simple kid and law of first and soup master.

他们联合起来移除了Mobile Coin，直接换成了Cashew，因为Cashew允许你在聊天中直接转账——这功能我们实际上已经用了好几年了，比起在Signal聊天里复制粘贴代币地址（虽然这本来就能做到）。

They came together and ripped out the mobile coin and just replaced it with, with cashew because cashew allows you to send the money in the chat, which we've been doing for, you know, years at this point is instead of copy pasting the token into a signal chat, which you can already do.

你看，当我们一群人一起聚餐时，如果都是Cashew用户，就会由一个人先付账。

And this is, you know, when we go like to a dinner together as a group and we're a bunch of cashew people, then one person pays dinner.

其他人直接在Signal聊天里用Cashew代币还钱给他。

Everyone else just pays back using cashew tokens in a signal chat.

这基本上就是我们已经在做的事。

That's what we're already doing basically.

所以我们所做的就是移除移动币钱包，用一个收银台钱包取而代之，直接接管他们为移动币构建的整个用户界面，转而用于SAS。

So what we did is to rip out the mobile coin wallet and replace it with a cashier wallet and, just take over the entire UI that they've already built for mobile coin and use it for, for SAS.

这就是你现在可以通过我们构建的这些功能实现的，你可以给你的钱包充值。

So that's what you can do now with this, with these folks that we've built, You can charge your wallet.

这是个休闲钱包。

It's a casual wallet.

你可以选择一个铸币厂或是预设的铸币厂，然后给你的钱包充值。

You choose a mint or it's a prebuilt mint, and you can charge your wallet.

你在里面设置了集合，可以在聊天中发送SAS，它会以一个漂亮的模型出现，你只需按个按钮就能接收代币。

You have sets in there and you can send the SAS in the chat, and it appears like as a nice model where you can just push a button and receive the coin.

这相当酷。

It's pretty cool.

我们已经做到了这一点，我们认为这是，首先，Signal支付需要——Signal本身为通信提供了难以置信的隐私保护。

And we've done this, and we think it's it's something you know, first of all, signal payments require, like, signal itself provides incredible privacy for communication.

对吧？

Right?

所以你会期望，或者至少要求，你放入Signal或在Signal基础上构建的支付系统也必须具备隐私性。

So you would expect or at least, like, requirement of the payment system that you put, into signal or you built on top of signal also, also must be private.

因此你需要一种保护隐私的货币交换方式。

So you need a privacy preserving way to exchange money.

而且出于显而易见的原因，它应该是比特币，因为Mobile Coin是个垃圾币，没人关心它。

And it should be Bitcoin for obvious reasons because mobile coin is a shit coin and no one cares about it.

所以它应该使用现存最好的货币——比特币，并以我们能实现的最保护隐私的方式来使用它。

So it should use the best money that exists, which is Bitcoin and use it in the most privacy preserving way that we can.

而Cashew提供了一种极佳的方式，能以高度保护隐私的方式使用比特币。

And cashew offers a very good way of using Bitcoin in a extremely privacy preserving way.

因此我们认为这是绝佳的选择。

So that's why we thought it's a great fit.

我们将其整合、构建、演示，证明了其可行性。

We put it together, we build it, we demoed it and showed that it's feasible.

随后我们发起了这项宣传活动，向人们普及相关知识。

And then we put together this campaign to educate people about it.

我们为此设定了几个目标。

And we had a couple of goals with that.

首要目标是推广比特币，向世界展示比特币作为优质货币的价值，它能在保护隐私的前提下使用，且比特币社区重视Signal应用。

So our first goal was just to put Bitcoin out there and show the world that, you know, Bitcoin is great money and it can be used with privacy and Bitcoiners care that Bitcoiners care about signal.

我们希望全球最优秀的通讯工具能使用全球最优质的货币。

And we want the best messenger in the world to use the best money in the world.

这是我们显然想展示的一点，同时也想说明基于Cashew的开发多么便捷——你能轻松地在现有软件中集成电子现金功能。

So that's one thing we obviously wanted to know, show also how easy it is to build with cashew and that you can, you know, just, you know, take existing software and add e cash to it very, very easily.

而且您的用户无需创建账户就能使用它。

And your users can use it without having to create accounts or, and whatnot.

而这正是我们所实现的成果。

And, and that's what, that's what we achieved.

关于这件事已经有很多讨论了。

Like, there's been lots of talk about it.

我与Signal团队讨论过此事，许多人都已看到，相关软件也已发布。

I talked to the signal people about it and lots of people have seen it and the software is out there.

如果您感兴趣，可以查看那些分支版本。

If you're interested, you can look at the forks.

显然我们不会分发这些版本，因为分发不打算长期维护的Signal分支版本会有些鲁莽。

Obviously we're not going to distribute this because it would be kind of reckless to distribute forks of signal, that you, that you're not planning to maintain over the long term.

现在确实存在一个Signal的分支版本。

And there is a fork of signal out there.

它叫Molly。

It's called Molly.

因此它也可以集成到现有的Signal分支中。

So it could also be integrated into an existing fork of signal.

但我们的目标是让人们能够想象，如果比特币被集成到主流科技产品中，我们的世界会是什么样子。

But our goal was to kind of enable, allow people to imagine what our world would look like if Bitcoin was integrated into mainstream tech products.

而这正是我们应该追求的目标。

And that's, that's what we should aim for.

我认为我们应该瞄准那些最大规模的目标。

I think we should aim for the smallest, the biggest targets out there.

而且我们应该明确，比特币也可以根据需求实现极高的隐私性，非常适合像Signal这样的优秀产品。

And, and, and we should make clear that Bitcoin can also be extremely private if you want and that it fits up an excellent product like signal.

显然，会有人提出质疑，比如我在播客中听到的Steeply就提到过这个问题——他支持这个想法，但关键在于谁来运营铸币系统。

Obviously, there will be people who say like, for example, steeply said that in a podcast I where I that I listened to is like talked about, highlighted this campaign and that he supports the idea and everything's cool, but you know, who's gonna run the mint.

这个问题总是反复出现：谁来运营铸币系统？

That's the thing that comes back to us all the time is who's gonna run the mint.

说实话，人们不断追问'谁来运营铸币系统'有点可笑，毕竟市面上已经有六十多种方案了。

And, you know, it's, it's a bit funny that people keep asking who's gonna run them in because first of all, they're like sixty minutes out there.

如果你想找铸币机构，市面上已经有很多选择了。

If you wanna, if you wanna find them in, there's, there are minutes.

现有的铸币机构数量已经远超任何人的需求。

There are more minutes than anyone needs already out there.

有时候人们会把它比作Spark或Art，那些只有一个中央铸币机构的系统。

And, you know, you can compare then, you know, sometimes people compare it to like spark or art, for example, where, you know, who's gonna run the mint because there's only one single mint.

就像只有一个Spark服务器那样。

There's like one spark server.

这就相当于由一家公司来运营铸币机构。

So that's like one company running the mint.

当然有人可能更喜欢这种模式，因为你可以说有公司在负责运营。

And obviously like you could prefer this because you can say there's a company running the mint.

这样至少公司会长期存在，出了问题我还能找他们投诉？

So it's gonna stick around for, you know, I can, I can go to that company and complain if something goes wrong?

你这话说得没错。

And you're right about that.

但如果你要找一家运营铸币厂的公司，我可以举Koinos为例。

But if you look for a company that wants to run a mint, then, you know, I can point to Koinos.

Koinos是一家知名的运营铸币厂的比特币公司。

Koinos is a well known Bitcoin company that runs a mint.

如果你愿意，他们会运营这个铸币厂。

They're gonna run the mint if you like.

所以如果你真想回答这个问题，首先你可以找到60家不同的铸币厂，可能还不止这些，仅我目前发现的就有这么多。

So if you're truly interested in answering the question, then you can first, you can find 60 different mints, maybe more just the ones that I've found so far.

而且还可以指出那些已经存在很久、希望未来几年仍会继续运营铸币厂的公司。

And also like point to companies that have been around for a long time that will still be around, hopefully in a couple of years that run mints already.

或者你也可以接受现金是一个分布式系统的事实，任何人都可以运营铸币厂。

Or you could just, you know, accept the fact that cash is a distributed system and anyone can run them in.

就像nostr的中继服务器一样，我们不会问'谁来运营中继'。

And like, just like with nostal, with relays, no, we don't say like, who's going to run the relays.

就像有足够多的人运营中继服务器，用户需要时总能找到可用的中继。

It's just like there are enough people who run the relays and users will be able to find relays if they need it.

对于现金系统来说也是如此。

And the same is true for cashew.

所以是的，Signal很可能不会运营铸币厂。

So yes, there's not like signal will probably not run a mint.

我们知道这一点，但可能会有金融机构为Signal运营铸币厂。

We know that, but there might be a financial institution that runs a mint for signal.

对吧。

Right.

这种假设并非完全不合理——确实存在对运营铸币厂感兴趣的金融机构，而且它们现在已经在做了。

And this is like, it's not completely irrational to assume that, that there are financial institutions who are interested in running mints and they're already doing it today.

而且，我经常听到人们在探讨Cashew的商业模式，也有人向我分享他们的计划。

And, know, I'm, I hear lots about, like, people looking to business models with Cashew and people sharing their plans with me.

虽然我不能透露具体细节，但我确切知道已经有人在和现有银行洽谈，这些银行正在考虑以合规方式运营这类业务，通过电子现金为客户提供新一代金融服务——包括隐私保护、离线支付等功能，并接入现有生态系统。

And, you know, I cannot talk about what I know, but I know for a fact that, you know, there's like a couple people who are talking to banks, like real banks that exist today that consider running this stuff, you know, because they wanna know how can I do this in a regulated fashion and provides like, a next generation financial service to my, to my customers, By using e cash, making, you know, giving them privacy, offline payment capabilities, and all this, like access to an ecosystem that already already exists?

因此Signal完全可以与专业金融机构合作，由后者为其运营铸币服务。

So signal could partner with a financial institution that runs meant for them.

这种假设并非完全不合逻辑。

This is not like completely irrational thing to assume.

所以，是的，我想我们只能静观其变，看看谁会运营一个铸币厂，然后Signal或类似Signal的公司也可以默认使用那个铸币厂，那么整个问题基本上就是，你知道的，结果如何了。

So, yeah, I, I guess we just like, you know, wait and see someone is going to run a Mint and then a signal also, or a company like signal could also use that mint by default, and then the entire question is basically, you know, the results.

我的意思是，这里有两件事。

I mean, so two things here.

首先，我非常喜欢这个倡议，因为我喜欢Signal。

First of all, I mean, I love this initiative, because I love Signal.

我是说，那些怪人知道我已经谈论过，而且我喜欢比特币。

I mean, the freaks know I've talked about, and I love Bitcoin.

我在这个节目和我的其他节目以及Noster上详细讨论过Signal。

I've I've talked about signal at length, on this show and my other shows and Noster.

而且，你知道，我认为它是有史以来最成功的自由技术项目之一。

And, you know, I think it's one of the most successful freedom tech projects, to ever exist.

在通讯方面，我已经将个人和商业生活的大部分转移到了Signal上。

I've moved the majority of my personal and business life over to signal in terms of communication.

显然，它并非完美无缺。

Obviously, it's not without its own faults.

有其自身的权衡取舍。

Takes its own trade offs.

它是中心化的。

It's centralized.

我们遇到了Signal首次真正重大的服务中断。

There was the first real major signal outage that we've seen.

至少自从我大规模使用以来，几周前AWS宕机时它瘫痪了几个小时。

I mean, at least since I've been using it at scale for a couple hours when AWS went down a couple weeks ago.

但就其本质而言，它非常出色。

But it's awesome for what it is.

它既方便又能提供非常强大的安全保障。

And it's convenient and gives you very strong security guarantees.

当然，终极目标是将比特币整合进去。

Obviously, the holy grail would be to have Bitcoin integrated.

不过说真的，我不太清楚你那边的情况，但在美国，相当大一部分经济实际上是在Venmo的支付体系上运转的。

I don't really but on that note, I don't know what it's like where you're at, but in America, like a significant portion of the economy is basically running on Venmo rails.

将比特币整合到Signal中，看起来就像是能真正实现规模化的明显改进。

And having Bitcoin integrated into signal seems like just a very obvious drop in improvement that could actually scale.

实际上，人们会使用它的。

They're like, actually people would use it.

说服他们下载一个比特币钱包完全是另一回事。

Like convincing them to download a Bitcoin wallet is completely different.

我已经让他们用上Signal了。

I already have them on signal.

话说回来，如果你暂时抛开对Cash App的偏好，你觉得为什么Cash App是实现这个的最佳方式？有什么论据支持？

With all that said, how do you think if you take off your cash you had for a second, do you think cat like, what's the argument for cash you being the best way to implement this?

显然，他们有多种选择。

Like, obviously there's multiple options available to them.

首先，我们看到Tether——他们拥有Rumble近50%的股份，已经为Rumble用户添加了比特币钱包功能，目前还只是链上操作。

Could, first of all, we saw tether, you know, they own nearly 50% of Rumble, they added a Bitcoin wallet to Rumble for Rumble users, they're just doing on chain for now.