毛里西奥·迪·巴托洛梅奥：借美元，持比特币——比特币抵押贷款的贬值策略

我认为美国和欧洲生活在一个幻想的世界里。这与世界上其他地区的生活方式完全脱节。听这段内容却从未经历过资本管制的人，我敢说只占全球人口的5%左右。资本管制意味着你没有财务自由。你受到压制。

I would argue that The United States and Europe live in a fantasy world. It's completely disconnected from how the rest of the world lives. Anyone listening to this that hasn't experienced what a capital control is, I would argue it's, like, 5% of the world population. What a capital control is is is you don't have financial freedom. You're repressed.

这就是为什么比特币对这么多人来说是如此颠覆性的存在。稳定币对许多人产生革命性影响的原因也在于此。

That's why Bitcoin is such a game changer to so many people. That's why stablecoins are such a game changer for so many people.

大家好，欢迎回到节目。本周与我同行的是Maurizio DiBartolomeo，他是Ledin的联合创始人兼首席销售官。非常感谢你的加入，Maurizio。

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Joining me this week is Maurizio DiBartolomeo. He is the cofounder and chief sales officer at Ledin. Thank you so much for joining me, Maurizio.

很荣幸，Natalie。非常高兴来到这里，我是节目的忠实粉丝。

It's a pleasure, Natalie. Very happy to be here. Big fan of the show.

非常感谢。你不远万里从开曼群岛赶来。我想了解更多关于你的背景故事，但首先让我们聊聊Ledin——因为我真的很想申请一笔比特币抵押贷款，但坦白说我一直有些顾虑。利率比某些传统贷款要高，这让我犹豫，毕竟我随时可以申请12个月0%年利率的信用卡。

Thank you so much. You came all the way from The Cayman Islands. I want to learn more about your backstory, but first, let's just talk about Ledin because I really want to take out a Bitcoin backed loan, but I've been a little nervous. I'll be candid. The interest rates are higher than some of the interest rates that are out there on maybe traditional loans, so I get nervous because I can always take out a 0% APR credit card for twelve months.

所以请说服我，我想办理人生第一笔比特币抵押贷款。不过首先，请介绍一下你们的公司。

So I want you to sell me on this, and I want to take out my first Bitcoin backed loan. But first, talk about the company.

好的。Ledin的业务非常简单——我们提供比特币抵押贷款。这意味着我们发放美元贷款，并用你的比特币作为抵押品。在大多数司法管辖区，这不会触发税务事件。

Yeah. So Ledin is a very simple business. We issue Bitcoin backed loans. And what that means is we give you a dollar loan, and we use your Bitcoin as collateral. It's in most jurisdictions, it's not a taxable event.

你不卖出比特币，从税务角度看是有利的。另一个主要优势是你能保留比特币的上涨空间。如果比特币价格上涨，你依然能受益。至于资金成本或资本成本，我们今天在市场上公布的利率是基于我们的资金成本。嗯。如果你观察传统融资市场的演变，比如亚当——那家公司的联合创始人、我的挚友兼CEO——他来自可再生能源融资领域。

You're not selling the Bitcoin, so it's beneficial from a tax perspective. And the other main major advantage is that you get to keep the upside of the Bitcoin. If Bitcoin goes up in prices, still your Now in terms of the cost of the or or the cost of the capital, the the rates that we put out in the market today are a function of our cost of capital. Mhmm. And if you look at the evolution of traditional financing markets, like, for example, Adam, the cofounder of that and my best friend and CEO, he comes from the renewable energy financing world.

当初太阳能板刚问世时，想投资或为这些项目融资的人并不了解太阳能板。他们不知道这些板能用多久。因此融资成本非常高，因为存在许多未知因素。是的。但随着时间推移，当人们认识到系统运作方式及底层担保品价值后，利率就会逐渐被压低。

And back when solar panels first came out, people that wanted to invest or finance those projects didn't understand solar panels. They didn't know how long they were gonna last. So the cost of financing them was really, really high because there was a lot of unknowns. Yeah. But over time, as people realize how the system works and the the value of the underlying security or collateral, then they start bidding down the price over time.

这正是比特币抵押贷款领域正在发生的现象。我们刚进入市场时，这类贷款利率在16%到18%之间。哦，要知道当时联邦基金利率为零。所以当时的利差大约在14%到18%之间。

And that's exactly what you're starting to see happen in the Bitcoin backed loan world. When we came into the market, these loans were priced somewhere between 16 percent 18 percent. Oh, wow. And this was, keep in mind, at an at a in an environment where Fed funds rates was at zero. So the spread over Fed funds rate back at that time was somewhere in the 14 to 18% range.

嗯。如今这类贷款利率已降至12.4%，而联邦基金利率是4.25%。所以实际融资成本的利差正朝着我们期望的方向发展。尽管如此，我确实认为比特币抵押贷款终将成为全球范围内最优质、最经济、最便捷的融资方式。嗯，在足够长的时间跨度里。

Mhmm. Today, those loans are going out at 12.4%, and Fed funds is at four and a quarter. So the spread on the actual cost of the funding is trending in the direction we all want it to go. That said and I do think that they're gonna be the Bitcoin backed loans are gonna be the best, cheapest, and most convenient way to access capital globally Mhmm. In a long enough time frame.

另一个关于利率比较的观点是：听着，如果有人提供0利率债务，立刻接受；如果有人提供低于5%的债务，也立刻接受。为什么？因为美元正以每年约8.5%到10%的速度贬值。

And the other point that I'll make when you're comparing interest rates, listen. If you can get 0% debt from anyone, take it. If you can get sub 5% debt from anyone, take it. Why? The US dollar is getting debased at approximately eight and a half to 10% year over year.

计算依据是：预计财政赤字约2万亿美元除以M2货币供应量（约20多万亿），2万亿除以20多万亿基本上就是8%到10%的贬值率。如果你观察其他自由市场——指不受政府操纵的市场。对吧？

And how you get there is you look at the projected deficit, which is roughly 2,000,000,000,000 over the m two money supply Mhmm. Which is 20 some trillion $2,022,000,000,000,000. So that's basically eight to 10% that's getting debased. And if you look at other free markets, free markets meaning not manipulated by the government. Right?

因为房贷利率受政府强力干预，他们掌控收益率曲线。但观察自由市场产品，比如迈克尔·塞勒的策略公司最新发行的STRC债券，其票面利率就达到9%。

Because mortgages are the the government has a heavy hand on the rates that mortgages go out at because they control the curve. If you look at free market products, I. E. Michael Saylor's or strategy's latest offering, STRC, that's going out at a 9% coupon.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以他用比特币作为担保

And so he he and this secured by Bitcoin

是的。

Yep.

在一个市值数十亿的上市公司里，他支付9%的利息外加行政费用和交易成本，这些可能还会额外增加一个百分点。所以迈克尔大约以10%的利率借款。要知道，世界上大多数人无法享受迈克尔的产品，它只面向特定人群。

In a publicly listed entity worth billions, and he's paying 9% plus administrative fees and carrying costs of the transaction, which would probably add another one point to that. So Michael's taking out money at 10, roughly. And most people out in the world also, keep in mind, Michael's product is only available to a select group of people.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而我的产品或我们的产品对所有人开放。是的，你的理解基本正确。这是第一点。就像我说的，如果你比较抵押贷款或无担保贷款，很多公司会推出促销活动吸引你把信用卡余额转过去，或者给你首笔贷款时提供非常诱人的促销利率。

My product or our product is available to everyone. Yeah. And you're not that far off. So that's that's number one. And like I said, you know, if you compare, if you look at mortgages or if you look at unsecured, a lot of these companies, they'll have these promos to get you to roll your balance of your credit card, or they'll they wanna take your first loan, and they'll give you a a really sexy promotional rate.

接受它。接受它。因为如果你知道美元贬值的速度超过他们收取的利率，只要你把这笔贷款妥善投资于硬资产，你很可能会获利。我对此深信不疑的原因是，在委内瑞拉玻利瓦尔恶性通胀时期，我做空玻利瓦尔并用美元作为锚定物，这成为我在做多比特币之前最成功的交易。

Take it. Take it. Because if you know that the US dollar is getting debased at more than what they're charging you, if you invest that loan properly into a hard asset, you're likely gonna do well. And the reason I feel so much conviction on this is because when the Venezuelan Bolivar was hyperinflating, my best trade ever before going long Bitcoin was going short the Venezuelan Bolivar using a dollar as an anchor.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

所以我会以30%的利率从银行借入美元。玻利瓦尔，我会以30%的利率从银行借入玻利瓦尔，然后投资于美元。而美元每年升值幅度高达百分之一千。天啊。所以对我来说，那30%的利率简直可以忽略不计。

So I would borrow dollars from the bank at 30%. Bolivaras, I would borrow Bolivaras from the bank at 30%, and I would invest it in dollars. And dollars are appreciating a thousand percent year over year. Oh my gosh. So for me, the 30% was a rounding error.

正是如此。

Exactly.

现在这个例子没那么夸张，但原理是一样的。

Now it's not as dramatic in this example, but it's the same principle.

没错。

Right.

你借入的是弱势资产，嗯。这种资产注定会贬值，而你用借来的钱购买的是无法被随意增发的东西。

You're borrowing a weak asset that is Mhmm. By design getting debased, and you're using the proceeds to buy something that cannot be printed.

对。

Right.

这和抵押贷款没什么不同。嗯。因为在抵押贷款中，你是在大规模做空美元。嗯。你用它来买房。

And that is no different than a mortgage. Mhmm. Because in a mortgage, you're taking a massive short on the dollar. Mhmm. You're buying a house with it.

是的。房子不是印出来的。房价每年上涨8%。你的贷款利率在5%到6%之间。其中2%每年都会累积到你的资产净值中，年复一年。

Yeah. You don't print the house. The house goes up 8% year over year. Your mortgage is between five and six. 2% of that accrues to your equity value every year, every year, every year.

然后五年后，你会觉得自己是个天才。

And then five years from now, you think you're a genius.

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Yeah. Coin Stories is proudly brought to you by Gemini. Start your Bitcoin savings account today. Plus investing in Bitcoin has never been easier than with Gemini's orange Bitcoin credit card. Earn up to 4% back in Bitcoin on everyday purchases like gas, dining, groceries, and more with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fees, and no exchange fees on your rewards.

此外，今日注册并在前90天内消费满3000美元，即可获得200美元比特币奖励。立即申请：gemini.com/natalie。如果您想紧跟比特币动态而不被杂音干扰，请查看Bitwise资产管理公司每周发布的CIO备忘录。CIO Matt Hogan整理了一份五分钟速览，解析每周数字资产领域的重大事件。Bitwise自2017年成立以来，管理着超过100亿美元资产，涵盖30多种策略。

Plus sign up today and get a $200 Bitcoin bonus when you spend 3,000 in your first ninety days. Apply now at gemini.com/natalie. If you wanna stay on top of Bitcoin without getting lost in all the noise, check out the weekly CIO memo from Bitwise Asset Management. CIO Matt Hogan puts together a quick five minute memo that breaks the biggest stories in digital assets each week. Bitwise has been around since 2017 and manages more than $10,000,000,000 across 30 plus strategies.

这份CIO周刊备忘录大胆、犀利且完全免费。访问bitwiseinvestments.com/ci0memo即可获取。当然，始终要谨慎考虑加密货币的极端风险。《Coin Stories》也由Ledin赞助。需要现金但不想出售比特币？

The weekly CIO memo is bold, sharp, and totally free. Just go to bitwiseinvestments.com/ci0memo. And always, of course, carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto. Coin Stories is also brought to you by Ledin. Need cash but don't wanna sell your Bitcoin?

Ledin是比特币抵押贷款的全球领导者，自2018年以来已发放超过90亿美元贷款，并率先提供储备金证明。通过Ledin，您可以获得托管贷款，无需月供，还有更多优惠。访问ledin.i0/natalie，首笔贷款可享0.25%利率减免。最后，别忘了预订我的新书《比特币101：比特币属于每个人》。本书将解释货币体系的问题所在，以及比特币如何助您构建持久财富与自由。

Ledin is the global leader in Bitcoin backed loans, issuing over $9,000,000,000 in loans since 2018, and they were the first to offer proof of reserves. With Ledin, you get custody loans, no monthly payments, and more. Visit ledin.i0/natalie and get a quarter percentage point off your first loan. And finally, make sure to get your copy of my upcoming Bitcoin one zero one book, Bitcoin is for Everyone. The book explains why money is broken and how Bitcoin can help you build lasting wealth and freedom.

这是送给比特币新手的完美礼物。只需访问我节目说明中的链接。这本书将于11月18日出版。我是说，迈克尔·塞勒总是说做空货币，做多资产，而比特币是最佳资产。所以我确实听到很多人开始办理比特币抵押贷款。

It makes the perfect gift for those new to Bitcoin. Just visit the link in my show notes. The book comes out November 18. I mean, Michael Saylor always says short the currency, go long property, and Bitcoin is the best property. So I'm actually hearing a lot of people take on Bitcoin backed loans.

这越来越受欢迎。你们自2018年就存在了。你们是首个提供储备证明的机构。你们是如何发展到如今规模的？为什么这个产品的需求量如此之大？

It's getting more popular. You guys have been around since 2018. You were the first to have proof of reserves. How have you grown to the scale that you have? Like, how how is there so much demand for this product?

嗯，有两个原因。第一，产品确实有效。如果你看看自2018年Ledon成立以来的价格图表，每个负责任使用贷款的人都因为底层资产价格上涨且未抛售而获益。嗯。所以人们使用Ledon并不断回头的原因在于Ledon确实为他们创造了价值。

Well, two things. One, the product works. So every if you look at the price chart since Ledon's been in business since 2018, every single person that has used their loans responsibly has done well because of the price appreciation of the underlying asset that they didn't sell. Mhmm. So the the the reason Leaden people use Leaden and keep coming back to Leaden is because Leaden works for them.

正是因为他们申请了贷款。举个例子，2021年我有个客户急需买房交割，当时市场崩盘，人人自危。但他真心想要那套房，而且与我们合作多年。他原本就计划贷款。

And it's because they took out a loan. I'll give you an example. I had a client that needed to close on a house in 2021 everything was collapsing, when there were so many questions, everybody was nervous. But he really wanted the house, and he had been with us for years. And he want he was planning to take a loan.

尽管当时市场充满不确定性，他还是来办了贷款，因为他不想在1.6万美元的价位卖掉比特币。是的。他拿到贷款完成了购房，至今仍保留着贷款。而随后两年里，比特币抵押物的增值超过了房子的总价。哇。

And even though there was a lot of uncertainty in the market, he came and he took it because he didn't wanna sell his Bitcoin at 16 k. Yeah. Took the loan, closed on the house, kept the still has a loan, but he kept it. And over the next two years, the Bitcoin collateral appreciated by more than what he paid for the house. Wow.

所以现在他既拥有房子，又持有比特币。他是非常满意的客户，还把经历告诉了朋友们。于是他的朋友们来找我说：'我想卖比特币买房'。我就说千万别！先看看Letterm吧。

And so now he has the house, and he has the Bitcoin. He's a very happy client, and he tells his friends what happened. And so his friends come to me, and they say, I wanna buy I wanna sell my Bitcoin to buy a house. Don't you dare. Check out Letterm first Yeah.

在你那么做之前。这就是为什么这个产品能吸引这么多人。嗯。因为我们刚才讨论的抵押贷款，本质上创造了婴儿潮一代的全部财富。嗯。

Before you do that. And so that's why the product is captivating the minds of so many people. Mhmm. Because the mortgage, the mortgage that we just discussed, created the wealth of basically all of the boomers. Mhmm.

请记住，只有那些生逢其时、生逢其地的美国婴儿潮一代才能接触到那种产品。嗯。而现在，从麦德林到迈阿密，任何人都可以使用我的产品完成非常相似的交易。为什么Lena增长如此迅速？因为我们有实际业绩证明。

And so keep in mind, only boomers living in America born in the right place at the right time had access to that product. Mhmm. Now anyone from Medellin to Miami can use my product to do a very similar transaction. Why is Lena seeing so much growth? Lena seeing so much growth because we have proof of work.

我们一直...你看，判断一个优秀贷款机构的标准不是他们在顺境时的表现。那不能定义好坏。几年前很多家伙看起来风光无限。嗯。说着漂亮话打着华丽广告，结果却让客户失望，让行业倒退五年。嗯。

We've been it it's you don't you don't define a good lender by how they're doing when things are up and to the right. That's not what makes a good lender. A lot of guys look great a few years ago Mhmm. And said all the right things and put all the right ads only to let their clients down and and set the industry back half a decade. Mhmm.

对吧？我们从来不是嗓门最大、花钱最凶的。我们的文化源于——创业初期我们根本承受不起任何错误，因为我们始终是弱势方。这种经历赋予了我们无可匹敌的纪律性，这种运营纪律是我深感自豪的。要知道2019年别人在发代币时，我们已在实施准备金证明。

Right? We were never the loudest, the biggest spenders. We come from a culture of we we couldn't afford to make any mistakes in the beginning because we were always the little guy. And that gave us a discipline that I think is unmatched in the way and an operational discipline is something that I'm immensely proud of. You know, we were adding proof of reserves in 2019 when people were adding tokens.

当时有人问我们，准备金证明又不会增加收入，对吧？这又不是能拿来营销的卖点。确实。但这是正确的事。

And people asked us, adding proof of reserves doesn't get you more revenue. Right? Like, it's not something I can go and sell. Right. But it's the right thing to do.

没错。而且越早做越好，因为当企业以准备金证明为基石时，后续所有建设都必须符合这个产品流程。看到2025年还有贷款公司不提供准备金证明就进入市场，我震惊极了。经历过2021年的人们选择贷款方时，首要考量就是：他们经受过考验吗？

Right. And it's the right thing to do early because when you lay proof of reserves at the foundation of the business, everything else you build on top of it has to fit into the product into the process or the program. I'm shocked that we're seeing some lending companies come out in the market today without proof of reserves in 2025. I'm shocked. And when people look for a lender, given the experience of 2021, their main concern is, are they tested?

嗯。他们是否经历过烈火淬炼？是否浴火重生？当年我流失客户给Celsius就因为他们提供1%利率。如果仅凭利率做决定...

Mhmm. Have they been through have have they been through the fire? Have they come out? The rate you know, I lost clients to Celsius way back because Celsius was lending money at 1%. So if you just decide based on the rate

是啊。可能会惹上麻烦。

Yeah. You might get in trouble.

你很可能最终会陷入麻烦。嗯哼。对吧？天下没有免费的午餐。如果看起来好得不像真的，那很可能就是假的。

Most likely you're gonna end up in trouble. Mhmm. Right? There is no free lunch. Now if it looks too good to be true, it likely is.

没错。

Right.

因为许多新兴公司无法在业绩记录、经验或储备证明方面与老牌企业竞争

And because a lot of the newer companies aren't able to compete with let in on track record or on experience or on proof of reserves

是啊。

Yeah.

它们还能怎么办？基本上只能试图展示诱人的利率来吸引你考虑转移资金。

Where do they have to go? They have to basically try to show a sexy rate to get you to even consider moving.

对。

Right.

但它们给你这些诱人利率的同时，储备证明在哪里呢？

But they're giving you all those sexy rates, but where are the proof of reserves?

没错。不，我认为这非常重要，因为透明度是比特币核心理念的核心。鉴于过去几年我们见证了FTX和Celsius事件，人们希望确保没有重复抵押的情况，比特币确实存在。正是如此。

Right. No. I think it's so important because transparency is so core to the ethos of Bitcoin. And after what we saw in the last couple of years with the FTXs and the Celsius, people want to know that there's no rehypothecation, that the Bitcoin's actually there. That's right.

能否详细谈谈这个流程以及这些贷款在机制上是如何运作的？如果有人决定用比特币作为抵押，过程是否非常快捷简便？他们需要抵押多少？如果价格下跌波动，风险是什么？

Can you just talk a little bit about the process and mechanically how these loans work? If someone decided to put up their Bitcoin as collateral, is it a very quick and easy process? How And much how much do they have to put up? And what's the risk if the price is volatile to the downside?

很好的问题。流程极其简单。你需要在Ledin上注册或创建账户。我们是一家受监管的企业，因此你需要完成KYC（了解你的客户）流程。

Great question. So the process is incredibly simple. You have to register or create an account on Ledin. We are a regulated business. So as such, we have you have to complete KYC.

你需要提供身份证件和地址证明。一旦通过KYC——如果一切顺利，几分钟内就能获批——提交贷款申请只需两分钟。你需要告诉我们你想借多少钱。产品运作方式是，我们要求你抵押相当于借款金额两倍价值的比特币。

So you have to give us your ID or proof and a proof of address. Once you get through the KYC, which if all goes well, it can get approved within minutes. Once you go through the KYC, submitting a loan application takes two minutes. You have to, you know, tell us how much you wanna borrow. The way the product works, we ask you to pledge to pledge two times the amount or the value of the money you wanna borrow.

例如你想借5万美元，就需要抵押价值10万美元的比特币。这样你就能借到所抵押比特币价值的一半。申请贷款获批后，系统会告知你需要转入贷款地址的对应比特币数量。你将比特币发送至该地址即可。

So if you wanna borrow $50,000, you have to put up a $100,000 worth of Bitcoin. So you get to borrow half of the value of the Bitcoin you pledge as collateral. And when the loan you apply for your loan, the loan is approved. It tells you the corresponding amount of Bitcoin you need to send to that loan address. You send the Bitcoin to the address.

我们的放款通常在4到6小时内完成（如果是工作日且法币交易）。哦，很快对吧？这是我们非常自豪的一点。如果是稳定币，速度更快。大多数客户如果早上操作顺利，当天就能完成开户、申请贷款并收到资金。

Our disbursements typically take somewhere between four and six hours if done on a weekday and if it's fiat. Oh, wow. We're very fast, and that's something we're really, really proud of. If it's in stablecoins, it's even faster. So most clients, again, if everything goes smoothly, can be created an account, applied for a loan, and have their funds in their account before the end of the day if they do it in the morning.

他们可以兑换成任何货币吗？

And they can exchange it for any currency?

可以的。贷款以美元计价，但我们可以用您当地的货币发放。所以如果您想要阿根廷比索、哥伦比亚比索或欧元，我们都可以按您选择的货币发放。不过贷款本身是以美元计价的。接下来是关于下行风险的问题。

They can. So the loans are denominated in US dollars, but we can disperse in your local currency. So if you want Peso Argentino, if you want Colombian pesos, if you want euros, we'll disperse in the currency of your choice. But the loan itself is denominated in USD. And then the question about the risks of the downside.

是的。比特币抵押贷款的两大主要风险：第一是交易对手风险——您是否信任与您交易的个人或机构？假设您已跨越这个门槛，因为您已经申请了贷款。此后最大的风险就是贷款管理，因为我的贷款不查您的信用记录。

Yes. So the main two main risks when you're taking a Bitcoin backed loan, number one is counterparty risk. Do you trust the person you're engaging with or the group you're engaging with? Let's assume you're over that threshold because you've already now applied for a loan. From that point on, the biggest risk is loan management because my loans don't I don't check your credit history.

不会询问您的收入情况。我没有其他

They don't ask you for your income. I have no other

为什么不查？

Why don't you?

因为您不需要这些？您的比特币就是您的信用凭证。我的意思是，我不需要了解您的其他信息。

Because your You don't need it? Your Bitcoin is your creditworthiness. Mean, I don't need to know anything else about you.

您的比特币就是您的信用凭证。明白了。

Your Bitcoin is your creditworthiness. Alright.

我已经掌握了您的信用凭证。还需要什么呢？

I already have your creditworthiness. So what else do I need?

好的。

Okay.

我借给你的钱是二比一的比例。嗯，对吧？所以我真正需要关注的是确保借给你的钱不会超过你抵押给我的担保品的价值。

I have two to one what I lent you. Mhmm. Right? So that's really all I need to watch is the is making sure that the money I lent to you is not does not go above the value of the collateral you've pledged me.

明白。

K.

因此我们通过清算系统来防范这种情况。如果价格开始下跌，你的贷款价值比（LTV）逐渐升高，一旦达到70%，我们会开始发送通知提醒你：'嗨，Natalie，你的贷款接近临界LTV了，请保持足够的比特币抵押。'

So there is a the way we protect against that is through a liquidation system. So if your if price starts dropping and your LTV starts creeping higher, if once it reaches 70%, let us start sending you notifications. Hey, Natalie. Your loan is getting close to critical LTV. Please keep a healthy incentive on more Bitcoin.

你需要追加抵押品。对，转更多比特币进来。

You have to put up more collateral. Yes. Send more Bitcoin.

这不是强制要求，但如果你想保护贷款，可以选择这么做。因为Ledin的铁规则是：当贷款LTV达到80%时，系统会自动出售所需数量的比特币来偿还贷款，并将剩余部分返还给你。

You're not obligated. You but you you can if you wanna protect your loan because the the hard and fast rule at Ledin is if and when the loan LTV reaches 80%, the system automatically sells however much Bitcoin is needed to repay the loan Okay. And returns any excess Bitcoin back to you.

哇，原来如此。好的。

Oh, wow. Okay.

关键在于，请注意，我们已经构建了许多工具来防止这种情况发生，因为清算并非您寻求我们的初衷，也不是我们期望的结果。是的。因为这既会减少我们的账面价值，也会给您带来糟糕的用户体验。

The the key is and then mind you, we've built many tools to prevent this because the liquidation is not the outcome you're coming to us for, and it's not the outcome we want Yeah. Because it decreases our book and gives you a crappy user experience.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，我们让您能非常便捷地向贷款账户转入比特币，无论是内部还是外部转账。我们还开发了一项名为自动充值的功能。例如，我们有许多客户在申请贷款后去小木屋度假一个月，未携带硬件钱包。他们表示：'毛，我无法使用硬件钱包，但又不希望你们清算我。我该如何自我保护？'

So we make it very easy for you to send Bitcoin to the loan, whether it is internally, externally. And we also built a feature called auto top up. For example, we had a lot of clients that took out a loan and went to their cabin for a month and didn't bring their hardware wallets. And they said, Mao, I'm not gonna have access to my hardware wallet, and I don't want you to liquidate me. How can I protect myself?

于是我们回应道：'好的。我们团队经过讨论决定——您知道，我们已经在LetIn设立了交易账户，您可以将比特币存放在那里进行冷存储托管。资金不会流动，仅用于管理您的贷款。'

And we said, okay. Well, we we just you know, we got together as a team, and we said, okay. We already have a transaction account at LetIn where you can keep Bitcoin in in basically, in in in custody, in cold storage. It doesn't move. It just sits there to manage your loans.

是的。您可以在该账户中留存额外比特币

Yeah. You can leave extra Bitcoin in that account

以防万一。

Just in case.

并开启这项名为自动充值的功能。

And turn on this feature called auto top up.

好的。

Okay.

自动充值意味着，如果你的贷款达到70%并触发通知，你已经授权我们将部分比特币余额转入贷款以保持其健康状态。

Auto top up means that if your loan ever reaches 70% and is and triggers a notification, you've already authorized us to sweep some of that Bitcoin balance into your loan to make it to keep it healthy.

好的。

Okay.

这意味着系统会在你身处小屋时代你作出响应。

And so that means that the system will respond on your behalf while you're at the cabin.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而另一方面，好吧，Mao。你让我更容易向贷款发送更多比特币。如果价格对我有利怎么办？嗯。答案是你可以将多余的比特币取回。

And the flip side to that is, okay, Mao. You make it really easy for me to send more Bitcoin to the loan. What happens if the price goes in my favor? Mhmm. And the answer is you can take off the excess Bitcoin back.

明白了。所以在Letin，当你的贷款低于30%的贷款价值比时，系统会自动亮起'赎回超额抵押物'的提示。砰。你可以将比特币取回自行保管。

Got it. So at Letin, when your loans go below 30% LTV, automatically, it lights up. Redeem excess collateral. Boop. You can take the you can take the Bitcoin back to self custody.

你可以用它来申请另一笔贷款，随心所欲地使用。但关键在于这是公平的。如果我们在市场下行时要求你追加保证金，那么上行时你也应该能拿回这部分资金。对吧？

You can use it for another loan. You can do whatever you want with it. But the point is it's fair. If we ask you to send us more on the way down, on the way up, you should be able to get it back. Right?

而事实正是如此。简而言之，这就是其中内置的风险保护机制。

And you are. So that's, in a nutshell, the sort of risk protection mechanisms in there.

我知道这对部分观众和听众来说可能有些基础，但能否请您简单解释下贷款价值比（LTV）？毕竟有些人没办理过按揭或大额贷款，不太清楚这些运作原理。

I know this might be a little bit elementary for some of my viewers and listeners, but can you kind of just explain loan to value, LTV? I mean, people haven't taken on a mortgage or a big loan, and so they're not really sure about these dynamics.

不，这问题很棒。贷款价值比其实就是借款金额除以质押担保物的价值。比如你借了5万美元，质押了价值10万美元的抵押品，那么贷款价值比就是5万除以10万——也就是50%。嗯。

No, perfect. It's a great question. So a loan to value really is just a dividing the amount you've borrowed by the collateral you've pledged. So if you've borrowed $50,000 and you've pledged a $100,000 worth of collateral, your loan to value is 50 over a 100 over a 100, which is 50%. Mhmm.

明白吗？如果抵押品价值下跌，分母就会变小，这个比率计算结果就会上升。对吧？举个例子来说——

Right? If the value of your collateral starts dropping, the denominator starts dropping. And so the result of the equation starts going up. Right? And so for example, let's use this as an example.

假设你借的还是那5万美元，但比特币价值跌到了7.5万美元左右，按我计算你的LTV应该在66%左右。

If you borrowed that same $50 and the value of that Bitcoin went to, say, 75 ks, your LTV should be somewhere around 66%, if I'm doing my math right.

这个比率会不断攀升，

It keeps creeping higher,

并且持续攀升。

and keeps that's creeping higher.

你不会想要高贷款价值比的。

You don't want a high loan to value.

当它达到70%时，你会开始收到通知说，嘿，Nat，你的贷款正在接近80%的水平。明白了。给我们发送更多比特币。当你发送更多比特币时，你的抵押品价值增加。这意味着你的贷款价值比开始下降。

And then when it hits 70, you start getting the notifications that say, hey, Nat, your loan is approaching that 80% level. Got it. Send us more Bitcoin. So when you send more Bitcoin, the value of your collateral grows. That means your LTV starts dropping.

是的。反之亦然。你借了50，存入了价值100的比特币。比特币翻倍了。

Yeah. And so the opposite is also true. You borrowed 50. You put 100 worth of Bitcoin. Bitcoin doubled.

是的。你的贷款价值比现在是25%。

Yeah. Your LTV is now 25.

这种情况经常发生，对吧？

Which happens a lot. Right?

这种情况经常发生。我遇到过没有。就在去年，我不确定今年的数据，但在2024年，我们有超过1000枚比特币从贷款中被赎回至自我托管，因为客户变得超额抵押，他们只是把多余的比特币取出来带回去了。这正是我们想要的。这正是你来找我们的原因。

Which happens a lot. And I've had a no. Just last year, I don't the data year to date, but twenty twenty four, we had over 1,000 Bitcoins redeemed to self custody from our loans, from clients that became overcollateralized, and they just scooped the excess Bitcoin off the top and brought it back. That's exactly what we want. That's exactly what you came to us for.

因此对我们来说，我认为这是一个巨大的——实际上我正在和团队讨论，我觉得我们应该把它变成一个更值得庆祝的事情，当你获得兑换资格时。是的，这确实是一个选项，这是我们特意或有意让它变得非常、非常容易操作的设计。

And so for us, it's a it's a huge I think it's a I'm actually talking to the team because I think we we should make it more of a celebratory thing when you when you get it, you know, the ability to redeem it. But, yes, the the that is an option, and that's something deliberately we make or intentionally we make very, very easy for you to do.

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而是以比特币衡量。再次提醒，别忘了预定我的新书《比特币属于每个人》。回到节目，对于那些观看或收听时说'我比特币不多，不想卖掉现有持仓，但又有点担心加密寒冬将至、价格会大幅下跌，最终让自己陷入丢失比特币的高风险处境'的人，你会怎么回应？

It's measured in Bitcoin. And again, don't forget to preorder my upcoming book, Bitcoin is for Everyone. Back to the show. So what do you say to someone who's watching this or listening and saying, you know, I don't really have a lot of Bitcoin. I don't wanna to sell what I have, but I'm just a little bit nervous that a crypto winter is around the corner, it's going to drop significantly, and then I somehow put myself in a really risky situation where I lose my Bitcoin.

首先我要说的是，你的思考方向是正确的，因为你考虑到了防范风险。获得良好借贷体验的关键在于提前规划，确保你设想了各种可能的情景。在Ledin平台，借款前我们提供了一个小计算器，你可以用它来模拟：比如我借1000美元，如果比特币价格跌到这个水平，我需要追加多少保证金？

Well, the first thing I say I'd say is you're thinking it the right way because you're think thinking to protect the downside. A big part of having a a great borrowing experience is planning and making sure you're playing out the right scenarios. So at Ledin, before you borrow, we have a little calculator that shows that you can play with and says, okay. I'm gonna borrow a thousand dollars. If the price goes to this level, how much more Bitcoin will I have to send?

这样你就能评估不同情况，从而决定合适的借款金额。我通常建议人们从500美元起借——当初我们设定这个门槛有两个原因：其一，我们很多新兴市场客户，500美元对北美某些人可能只是一顿饭钱，但在拉美地区可能是别人几个月的工资。

And so you can play out your scenarios and size the loan accordingly to you. I I always suggest to people, let in loans start at $500. And the point of that, it was twofold when we did it at the beginning. Number one, we have a lot of clients in emerging markets where $500 I know it sounds like dinner to some people in North America, but, like, dollars 500 in LatAm to some people is a month like months of work. Yeah.

更重要的是，如果我开发的比特币产品不是面向大众的...那我们到底在做什么？

And not only that, if if I if I try to if I'm building a a Bitcoin product that is not being built for the masses Mhmm. What are we really doing here?

没错。

Right.

对吧？难道我们只是想给华尔街富豪的高尔夫球杆再多配一根球杆吗？这可不是我的初衷。

Right? Like, what what we just wanna give what? Like, wealthy Wall Street people one more club in their golf set? Like, I don't that's not really what I'm here for. Right?

别误会——我珍视所有规模的客户。但我更看重的是：是的，几乎每个人都能使用这个产品。

Don't worry. And don't don't get me wrong. I love clients of all sizes. But I love more the fact that anyone Yes. Virtually anyone can access the product.

我们的贷款额度从500美元到250万美元不等。哇！而且你可以申请多笔贷款。有些客户同时有十几二十笔贷款都没问题，当然也有只借500美元的客户。

And our loans go from $500 to $2,500,000 Wow. And you can have multiple loans. So we have clients with ten, twenty, and they're fine. We also have clients with $500 loans.

那需要多长时间？还款期限是多久？

And how long does it take? How long do you have to pay it back?

贷款期限是一年。关键的是，这是我们从一开始就刻意设计的另一特点——我们的贷款不需要每月支付利息。所有利息都会累积在未偿还金额上，直到你决定还款为止。

So the loan term is one year. And importantly, and this is another thing that we did by design from day one, our loans do not require monthly interest payment. They all interest accrues on the amount outstanding until you decide to repay the loan.

好的。

Okay.

你可以随时还款，无论是部分还款还是全额还款都可以。但根据伦农协议，你没有义务每月支付利息。为什么这一点很重要呢？

And you can do that at any time. And you can make partial repayments and full repayments at any time. Wow. But there's no obligation for you to make those monthly interest payments under the Lennon agreement. So why is that important?

首先，如果你来找我们借美元，说明你正缺美元。我们最不想做的就是让你每月再凑钱给我们支付小额利息。其次，假设你是哥伦比亚的借款人，借了500美元，而我要求你每月给我5美元，但电汇手续费就要45美元...

Well, one, if you're coming to us to borrow dollars, it's because you're short dollars. Yeah. And the last thing we want to ask you is to come up with more dollars every month to send us back a small clip. And the second part of that is if you are a person borrowing $500 in Colombia and I'm asking you to send me $5 and that wire fee is $45

是啊，没错。

Yeah. Right.

那我这不是在干什么蠢事？对吧？所以我们设计这款产品时就让它简单易用，无需过多考虑。你只需拿到所需资金，完成要做的事，保持贷款价值比，了解价格水平，然后继续过你的生活。

What am I doing? Right? And so the product was designed in a way that it was just easy, and you didn't have to think about it too much. You could just get the money you need, do the thing you needed to do, and just keep your LTV, know your price levels, and just go about your life.

你可以在一年期限时续贷。对吧？这具体是什么意思呢？

And you can roll it at the year mark. Right? What does that mean, really?

意思是如果贷款——比如你今天借款并持有一年。假设你借了1000美元，利率12.4%，到期时你欠我们12.4美元。在第一年期限结束时，若贷款价值比仍低于60%，贷款会自动续期进入新周期。

That means that if the loan basically, say you took it out today, you held it for a year. Let's just say you borrow $1,000 At 12.4%, that's $12.40 dollars you owe us at the end. At the end of the first year term, if your loan LTV is still below 60%, the loan automatically rolls into a new term.

哦，哇，明白了。

Oh, wow. Okay.

具体流程是：最初你借了1000美元，期末欠款12.4美元。第二年的贷款期初余额就是这12.4美元，然后继续累积利息。

So what happens is that initially, you borrowed $1,000 At the end of the term, was $12.40 dollars Year two of the loan opens with a starting balance of $12.40 dollars and then continues on from there.

利率不变，所有条款照旧。

Same rate, same everything.

不，会按续贷时的最新利率重新计算。

Well, it renews at the then current rates.

好的。

Okay.

但我确实遇到过客户将贷款滚动续借了四五年之久。哇哦。我是说，那些在比特币价格6000、10000美元时来找我们的人。天啊，他们做得非常成功，因此能妥善管理这些贷款。

But I've had clients that have rolled loans for four and five years. Wow. And I mean, are the guys that came to us when Bitcoin was at 6,000, 10,000. Oh my And they've done incredibly well. And so they've managed their loans.

很多时候，他们会提取超额抵押部分，申请新贷款购置房产。正如我所说，人们使用这种方式是因为它确实有效。

A lot of times, they've scooped off the excess collateral, took out new loans, bought property. Like I said, the reason people use it is because it's worked for them.

而我们渴望实物资产。杰夫·布斯总说：'你当然热爱比特币，但你不能住在比特币里，不能靠比特币旅行，也不能吃比特币。'

And we want the stuff. Jeff Booth always says this. It's like, well, obviously, you love Bitcoin, but you can't live in your Bitcoin. You can't travel through your Bitcoin. You can't eat your Bitcoin.

你想要的是金钱能买到的实物，是比特币最终能为你换来的东西。那么为什么Letin不能提供三十年期的抵押贷款呢？

You want the stuff that money buys you. You want what Bitcoin can eventually get you. So how come Letin can't offer like a thirty year mortgage?

嗯，重申一次，因为——严格来说并非完全没人愿意——简而言之，这取决于我们的资金结构。除非我们能以固定利率获得三十年期的锁定资金，否则我们无法发放对应期限的贷款。所以限制因素或者说关键门槛在于资金来源的结构。

Well, again, because, I mean, nobody not nobody. I shouldn't say that. Really, the short answer is a function of the structure of our funding. So unless we can get thirty year committed money at a set rate, we can't be lending out that money committed for thirty years. So that's the limiting or the gating item is the structure on the funding side.

如果用更戏谑的方式回答：没人愿意成为那个用美元锁定固定收益，并承诺三十年不变的人，毕竟所有人都在盯着不断膨胀的财政赤字，你懂的...

The sort of more fun answer to that is that nobody wants to be the guy that is getting a set yield for dollars and is committing to getting that number for thirty years because everybody's looking around at at the the deficit and, you know

确实。

There.

累积赤字与总债务。所有人都在说，三十年承诺期感觉太长了。所以我认为美联储近期提出第三项政策目标的原因——不知你是否注意到——是他们需要控制长期收益率曲线，很可能通过收益率曲线控制来实现。因为

The accumulated deficit and the total debt. And everybody's saying, like, thirty years feels like a long time to, to commit to. And so I think the reason you see the Fed recently come out with the third mandate, I don't know if you caught that Yeah. Is because they need to keep the long end of the curve in check, and it's likely gonna be through yield curve control. Because

没错。

Yeah.

我想说的是——如果你认识这样的朋友可以告诉我——如果我问我朋友们：'嘿，你愿意以5%到6%的利率借钱给美联储三十年吗？' 我得到的会是一屋子拒绝。

I find I mean, tell me if you know any friends, but if I ask my friends, hey. Would you want to lend money to the Fed at for thirty years at five and change, six and change? I would get a room full of no's.

确实如此。

Exactly.

所以真不知道谁会迫不及待想借出三十年期的贷款。我实在想不出这种人。这才是关键所在。就像委内瑞拉，银行都停止放贷了。

So I don't know who really is chomping at the bit to go lend money for thirty years. I don't know who that person is. And so that's really the thing. Right? Like in Venezuela, the banks stopped lending.

记得我开始做空玻利瓦尔时，最初贷款期限是两年。两年后我去续约时，他们修改了条款，因为意识到自己完全被套牢了。最长贷款期限缩至一年，之后不断缩短，最后变成按周计。

Like, I remember when I started shorting the Bolivar, my first loan terms were two years. Then I went back after the initial two years, and then they updated the terms because they knew they were getting just completely hosed. The max length of their term was now one year. And then it kept shortening and shortening and shortening until the end. It was weeks.

到那时我已经赚得盆满钵满，交易就结束了。但我认为未来会出现更长期限的贷款——虽然短期内不太可能有三十年期的，即便有也会非常昂贵。不过两三年期的应该很快会出现。

And so by that point, I had my pound of flesh, it was done. But I think I think we will get longer durations. I don't know that we'll get thirty years anytime soon in terms of and if it will, it'll be very expensive. Mhmm. But I do think, you know, two, three years are somewhere around the corner.

我认为随着时间的推移，我们贷款的期限结构将在自由市场中有效地重现收益率曲线。这正是A. Sailor现在谈及的信贷及其演变，我认为这是许多人正在关注的问题。而有什么资产比世界上最好的抵押品更适合构建这条收益率曲线呢？根本不存在次优选择。

And I think over time, the term structures of our loans will effectively recreate the yield curve in a free market. And that's really and A. Sailor speaks now about credit and the evolution of credit, and I think this is something a lot of us are looking at. And what better asset to create that yield curve around than the world's best collateral? It's just there is no second best.

是的。我想了解更多关于你在委内瑞拉的成长经历，因为你亲身经历了货币崩溃意味着什么。请告诉我们你的背景以及如何联合创立Ledin的。

Yeah. I want to learn more about your origin story and your life in Venezuela because you essentially understood firsthand what it means when money dies. So tell us where you come from and how you got to cofound Ledin.

好问题。我出生并成长于委内瑞拉，80年代末到90年代在那里长大。那是个非常美好的地方。但委内瑞拉和许多大宗商品经济体一样存在问题——国家经济完全受基础商品价格波动支配。

Great question. So I was born and raised in Venezuela. I grew up in Venezuela in the late '80s and '90s. And it was a really nice it was a really beautiful place to grow up. Venezuela has the issue that many commodity markets or economies have, which is there's a the country economy dances to the beat of the underlying commodity.

这里指的就是石油？

And in this case, this is oil?

没错，就是石油。90年代末期石油经历了几轮繁荣与萧条周期，这在委内瑞拉社会引发了巨大不满。最终导致一个叛变军官试图推翻政府——他第一次尝试失败后，又进行了第二次尝试。

This is oil. Correct. And so towards the late nineties, towards around the nineties, there was a boom bust cycles in oil, and this created a lot of frustration in the Venezuelan society. And that led to one rogue military guy trying to overthrow the government. He he tried once, failed, tried the second time, failed.

当他准备第三次尝试时，时任总统竟给予特赦让他能参加选举。你知道这个人是谁

And when he was about to try the third time, the incumbent president gave him a presidential pardon so that he could run-in the polls. You know who that person

吗？嗯哼。

was? Mm-mm.

乌戈·查韦斯。

Hugo Chavez.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

乌戈·查韦斯在9098年获得总统赦免。他做的第一件事就是乘飞机去古巴接受训练，回来后发起一场中庸的竞选活动。高唱康巴亚，让我们一起快乐。企业，我理解。人民，我理解。

So Hugo Chavez gets a presidential pardon in 9098. And the first thing he does is gets in a plane, goes to Cuba, got his training, comes back with a middle of the road campaign. Kumbaya, let's all be happy. Businesses, I get it. People, I get it.

我们要团结起来。总之，他赢得选举后重写宪法，更改国名、国旗、国徽、时区，基本上开始摧毁我们的宪法。我和许多其他家庭认定这家伙只会干一届。你知道，我们打算去佛罗里达待几年，嗯，等这阵风头过去。

We're gonna come together. Anyway, wins the election and rewrites the constitution, changes the name of the country, changes the flag, changes the coat of arms, changes the time zone, starts basically ravaging our constitution. And my family and many others decided that this was gonna be a one term guy. You know, we were we were gonna go spend a few years in Florida while Mhmm. You know, while this blew over.

我记得刚到佛罗里达时遇到一群古巴人。我告诉他们我们从哪来，委内瑞拉发生了什么，他们那样看着我。然后拥抱我说，伙计你最好在这安顿下来。是啊，你大概还没意识到你的国家刚刚遭遇了什么。

And I remember when I got to Florida, I met a bunch of Cubans. And, I told them where we were coming from and what was happening in Venezuela, and they gave me this look. And they hugged me, and they said, you better get comfortable here, man. Yeah. I don't think you know what just happened to your country.

我们还开玩笑说不会的，那种事不会发生在我们身上。

And we would joke. And we're like, no. It's not gonna happen to us.

这就是那个在各地都失败的共产主义实验，可人们总是不吸取教训。

This is the communist experiment that's failed all over, and people don't listen.

我们就像，我和我们？不。我们有石油。我们是大陆。总之，当他开始这样做时，查韦斯开始在国有电视台没收企业、建筑，接管国有石油公司，用他的朋友替换所有专业人士，基本上他开始撕裂经济，撤销任何反对他的媒体、广播、电视台的执照。

We're like, me us? No. We have oil. We're we're mainland. Anyway, so as he starts doing this, Chavez starts expropriating businesses on national television, buildings, takes over the the state oil company, replaces all the professionals with his friends, and he basically starts ripping apart the economy, removes the licenses from any media outlet, radio, TV that oppose him.

这就是剧本。这就是剧本。

It's the playbook. It's it's the playbook.

然后印了一大堆钱，对吧，以至于你们得推着手推车在大街上走，通货膨胀率肯定达到了三位数吧？

And prints a bunch of money, right, to the point that you guys are, like, holding wheelbarrows at the boulevard, and and inflation must have been, what, three triple digits?

是的。查韦斯在的时候，石油市场还行。所以在委内瑞拉有一种财富的假象，因为他虽然破坏了经济，但油价飙升。这造成了认知失调，人们说共产主义太棒了。对吧？

Yeah. And so Chavez when Chavez was around, oil markets were still okay. And so the there was, like, a bit of a an illusion in Venezuela of wealth because he was ravaging the economy, but oil prices were ripping. So it created this cognitive dissonance where people said communism is amazing. Right?

看，我现在得到了这么多好东西。他开始补贴优质牛肉的价格，补贴进口酒的价格。所以对很多人来说，委内瑞拉是天堂，因为一切都那么便宜。哇。

Like, look at all these great things that I'm getting now. I he started subsidizing the price of prime beef. He started subsidizing the price imported liquor. So Venezuela was paradise to a lot of people because everything was so cheap. Wow.

与此同时，我们这些明白发生了什么的人只能抓狂，对着虚空大喊，但没人听。

And so meanwhile, all of us that understood what was happening were just pulling our hair and screaming to the void, but nobody was listening.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后查韦斯在2013年因癌症去世。这引发了我们都以为能让国家重回正轨的选举，于是我们都飞了回去。而那正是查韦斯政权首次公然窃取的选举。他们明知自己没赢，却仍站出来宣称不，我们确实赢了。

And then Chavez dies of cancer in 2013. This triggered the election that all of us thought was gonna get the country back, so we all fly back. And that was the first election that the Chavista regime basically stole. Like, knowingly that they didn't win, they they still went out and they said, no. We did win.

我记得后来爆发了抗议活动，我也去了现场。那是我第一次参加抗议时，亲眼目睹政府向我们发射实弹。我看到有人倒下，认识的人也倒下了。就发生在那个夜晚。

And I remember going to the protest because there were protests afterwards. And that was the first time I had ever been to a protest where I had where I had heard and seen the government shoot re shoot real bullets back at us. And I saw people drop. I saw guys I knew drop. And it was at it was that night.

我母亲和我现在的妻子把我拉回家，就像进行了一场干预。她们说，你必须离开这里。

My my mom and my now wife pulled me back, pulled me aside at home, and basically, was like an intervention. They're like, you have to leave.

你必须离开。是的。

You have to leave. Yeah.

于是我离开了。但我最小的弟弟还留在那里，他不想走。他刚读完大学，一心想在委内瑞拉创业。嗯。我们家有经商传统。

And so I left. But my youngest brother was still there, and he didn't wanna leave. And he was just finishing university, and he really wanted to start a business in Venezuela. Mhmm. And I come from an entrepreneurial family.

父亲支持我们毕业后都尝试创业。所以我弟弟不断向他推销点子。但父亲说，不不不，离开吧。我要你离开。

My dad supported all of us to take a crack at the bat when he came out of school. And so my youngest brother keeps pitching them ideas. And my dad says, no, no, no. Leave. I want you to leave.

弟弟回答：爸，不行。不管你支不支持我都要干。如果不支持，我就搬出去卖车。然后父亲转发了弟弟的提案给我——他想买比特币矿机。

And he goes, dad, no. I'm doing this whether you support me or not. And if you don't support me, I'm leaving the house. I'm selling my car. And so my dad flips me the pitch, which is my brother's proposing to buy Bitcoin miners.

哇。真的吗？

Wow. Really?

是啊。那时是2014年底。这是我第一次读到白皮书，也是我第一次看到比特大陆的链接。

Yeah. So this is late twenty fourteen. And so this is the first time I ever read the white paper, and this is the first time I ever see a link to Bitmain.

所以你弟弟早就知道比特币了。是你弟弟发现的

So your brother already knew about Bitcoin. Your brother found

对。我最小的弟弟发现的。

it. My youngest brother found it.

太不可思议了。

That's incredible.

于是他给我发了白皮书。委内瑞拉的水电是政府大力补贴的。所以除了芯片外，主要成本都有补贴。而且你可以在国外把比特币换成美元。

And so he sends me the white paper. Venezuela hydroelectricity was heavily subsidized. So the main inputs were subsidized outside of the chips. Yeah. And you could sell the Bitcoin for dollars outside of the country.

在他所有提议的项目里，我当时就觉得：老爸，这个看起来还不错。于是我弟弟买了比特币矿机，开始挖矿。要知道，那时候委内瑞拉实行着严苛的资本管制。

So out of everything else that he had pitched, I was like, dad, this doesn't seem too bad. So my brother buys the Bitcoin miners, and then he starts mining Bitcoin. And keep in mind, Venezuela had these horrible capital controls at the time.

我敢打赌。

I bet.

于是六个月后我飞了过去。我所有的朋友都在变卖资产准备离开，试图找到能工作的地方。房屋挂牌出售，商铺关门歇业。

So I fly down six months after. All of my friends are liquidating their assets, leaving, trying to figure out where they can get a job. Houses for sale, businesses closed

是啊。

Yeah.

一片萧条。这时我弟弟笑容满面地出现了。他说：听说你朋友们都要走了，你觉得他们会愿意出租工业场地吗？我需要更大的场地。

Depressed. And along comes my brother with a smile. And he goes, I I heard your friends are leaving. Are any of them leaving any industrial sites you think they're willing to rent? Because I need more space.

我完全摸不着头脑，反问他：你特么要更大场地是什么意思？现在国家都快崩溃了。他却说：不。

And I don't know. Got him. And I go, the hell do you mean you need more space? Like, the country's falling apart. He's like, no.

他说：不，我是需要扩建矿场。天啊。于是我决定去看看他的矿场，结果发现设备数量比原计划几乎翻了一倍。

No. Like, I need more space for my mines. Wow. And so I'm like and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go check out your mines. And I went and checked out the mines, and they had and he had almost doubled the machines originally that were supposed to be there.

我就跑去问我爸：他怎么搞到双倍设备的？你又给他投钱了？我爸说：没有，他已经把钱还给我了。

So I go to my dad, and I was like, how did he get double the machines? Did you give him more money? He's like, no. He paid me back.

因为比特币涨了？

Because the Bitcoin went up?

因为他用免费能源挖矿。是的。所以

Because he was mining with free energy. Yeah. And so

那他到底从哪里，比如说，供应？他们允许进口这些设备吗？

And where did he even, like, supply? Were they allowing those to be imported?

ASIC矿机，是的。因为委内瑞拉那时从中国进口了大量物资。那时候根本没人注意到

The the ASICs, yes. Because Venezuela had so much things coming in from China. Back then, there was no nobody was aware of

检查什么。

what checking.

就是电脑。只是，运些电脑进来。

It was computers. It was just, bringing computers.

这太不可思议了。

That's incredible.

于是，你知道的，他开始做得非常非常出色。而且，现在我们找到了一种方法，可以在不需要美元的情况下保护我们的玻利瓦尔免受通货膨胀的影响，这简直是开创性的。所以我们的朋友们都很好奇。他们问，我能去看看你们在做什么吗？我们的家人，表兄弟、叔叔阿姨、朋友们都开始挖矿了。

And so, you know, he starts doing very, very well. And, you know, now that we have found a way of sheltering our Bolivar's from inflation without even needing the dollar, it was it was it was groundbreaking. And so our friends were very curious. They're like, can I go see what you're doing? Our our family, so our cousins started mining, uncles, aunts, my friends.

那时候，你还可以用GPU矿机，因为可以连接到NiceHash并获取比特币。所以人们都在重新利用旧电脑。太神奇了。2015年到2017年就像是委内瑞拉挖矿的黄金时代。

Back then, you could still use GPU rigs because you could connect them to NiceHash and get Bitcoin for that. So people were repurposing old computers. Amazing. And so it was like the golden age of Venezuelan mining was twenty fifteen to 2017.

哇。

Wow.

然后在挖矿的过程中，我学到了一些有趣的事情。一是你一旦尝到了比特币收入的甜头，天哪，你就不想卖掉它了。但账单却源源不断。

And then mining when when mining, I I learned, you know, a couple of interesting things. One is once you get a taste of Bitcoin revenue, oh, boy. You don't wanna sell that thing. Exactly. But you keep getting the bills.

所以我立刻就想，为什么要卖掉正在升值的东西？我宁愿用它作为抵押来支付开支，同时保留上涨的空间。而且我在做空美元方面已经做得很好。所以借入弱势资产持有强势资产这个概念感觉很自然。

And so immediately, I said, why am I selling the thing that's appreciating? I need I would rather use it as collateral and meet my expenses and keep the upside. And I had already done really well shorting the with the dollar. So this concept of borrowing weak and holding hard asset felt natural.

真是个精彩的故事。

What a great story.

所以那时候我想，明尼苏达州没人会这么做。但后来我开始在加拿大建立我的第一个矿场，多亏了Francis Puglio，因为我们基本上是被赶出委内瑞拉的，情况变得非常困难。是的。我稍后会讲到那个故事，但我兄弟的设施最终被政府突袭，他们勒索他。太可怕了。是的。

And so I I I at the time, I was like, no one in Minnesota is ever gonna do this. But then I started building my mind, my first mind in Canada, thanks to Francis Puglio, because I we were getting basically kicked out of Venezuela, it was getting very difficult to Yeah. And I'll and I'll I'll get to that story later, but my brother's facility eventually got raided by the regime, and he they they were extorting him. That's horrible. Yeah.

总而言之，这导致他不得不连夜逃离该国，基本上只能带上他的两个孩子、妻子、护照以及他的比特币。

And and but, basically, that led to him having to escape the country overnight, being able to take basically only his two kids, his wife, his passports, and his Bitcoin.

但他能带着比特币逃离。这太关键了。

But he could flee with his Bitcoin. That's so critical.

但这不仅仅是逃离的问题。甚至要有做出这种决定的心态，因为他不得不抛弃他的房子，放弃他的生意。他在银行的现金余额变得一文不值。他在那种情况下拥有的所有其他资产

But that was and and it's not even just fleeing. Even being in the mindset that you can make that decision because he had to leave his house behind. He had to leave his business behind. His cash balances at the bank were worthless. Everything every other asset he had in that in that situation

都会归零。没错。

would zero. Exactly.

谢天谢地，他有足够的比特币作为缓冲，能让家人脱险，并在重建生活期间支撑他们。

Thank God he had enough Bitcoin of a Bitcoin cushion to get his family out and basically support them while he rebuilt.

是啊。这真是不可思议。

Yeah. That's incredible.

所以他做到了。当我在加拿大建立矿场时，我们其实已经厌倦了出售比特币。我和亚当决定，不，我们要解决这个问题。我们要做加拿大首笔比特币支持的贷款，而且要以比特币持有者的方式来做。

And so he did that. And while I was building the mine in Canada, I basically you know, we we got tired of selling our Bitcoin. And Adam and I just said, no. Let's solve this problem. Let's do Canada's first Bitcoin backed loan, and let's do it the Bitcoiner way.

我太喜欢这个了。

I love that.

比如说，储备证明，没有代币，没有其他资产，就像我希望感到安心的那种方式。

Like, proof of reserves, no token, no other assets, like, the way I would want to feel comfortable.

帮我理解一下。我是说，阿联酋也是建立在石油基础上的。但他们似乎为整个国家创造了巨大的财富。他们建造的摩天大楼看起来像是拉斯维加斯的十倍加强版。为什么委内瑞拉不能像那样呢？

So help me understand something. I mean, The UAE, that's built on oil as well. But they seem to have created massive wealth for the entire nation. They're building up skyscrapers that looks like Vegas times 10 on steroids. Like, why can't Venezuela be like that?

回答你的问题，你的比较在方向上是正确的。委内瑞拉拥有世界上最大的原油储量。答案是腐败。腐败是因为领导层完全无力应对超出他们能力范围的问题。查韦斯上任时，委内瑞拉每天生产350万桶石油。

So to answer your question, your comparison is directionally correct. Venezuela has the largest crude oil reserves in the world. The answer is corruption. And, it's corruption because there there's just no the leadership is just completely inefficient in swimming out of their depth. In Venezuela, when Chavez took office, Venezuela produced three and a half million barrels of oil per day.

如今，产量只有68万桶。他们摧毁了生产设备。另一个问题是他们花钱的方式，他们把资金奖励给他们的朋友，我之前跟你提过。我记得是2015年，委内瑞拉的预算中有160亿美元的缺口。

Today, it produces 680,000. They've decimated the productive apparatus. And the other thing is they the the way they spend the money and they just award the money to their friends I mentioned this to you earlier. There's a I think the year is 2015. In the Venezuelan budget, there's a $16,000,000,000 gap.

所以钱就这么消失了。他们直接给了

So they just the money disappeared. They just gave it to

他们。另一个问题是，委内瑞拉政府花费大量资金来维护他们虚假的汇率。因为当政府实施资本管制时，他们会设定汇率。通常，他们会人为压低汇率，这样他们的发展指标看起来很棒。例如，如果我将汇率设定为2玻利瓦尔兑1美元，而我的最低工资是每月1000玻利瓦尔，那么你的最低工资就是每月500美元。这太棒了。

them the for other thing is the the other thing that the cost the Venezuelan government a lot of money was defending their fake exchange rate. Because when the government instills capital controls, they they set the exchange rate. And typically, they set this exchange rate artificially low so that their development metrics look great. For example, if I set the exchange rate at 2 bolivares per dollar and my minimum wage is a thousand bolivares a month, then you have a minimum wage of $500 a month. That's fantastic.

但如果你每月仍能拿到一千美元，而汇率不是2而是100，那你每月实际只能得到10美元。这已经是贫困线以下了。没错，低于贫困线。所以这会触发联合国所有关于贫困的标准。

But if you're still getting a thousand dollars a month and the exchange rate is not 2 but 100, you're getting $10 a month. That's poverty line. Right. Below the poverty line. So you would be triggering all the UN poverty things.

因此他们人为制造这些极低的美元汇率。为了让这些汇率看起来可信，他们必须能以这个汇率将美元卖给某些人。于是他们就卖给自己的关系户。基本上，他们以几分钱的价格把美元卖给朋友，而这些朋友转手就以全价倒卖出去。

So they they create these artificially low dollar rates. And in order to make them believable, they have to be able to sell those dollars to somebody at that rate. So they do it to their buddies. And so, basically, they're selling dollars for pennies to their friends who are then just turning around and reselling it at full pop.

那委内瑞拉现在的通胀率是多少？

So what's the inflation rate today in Venezuela?

200%。

200%.

每年200%？

200% per year?

是的。

Yes.

所以我们抱怨自己2%到3%的通胀率，但正如你提到的，实际上他们每年增加M2货币供应量约7.8%、9%。相比之下我们已经算幸运的了。

So we complain about our 2% to 3%, which is really, as you mentioned, to your point, they're increasing M2 money supply by, like, 78%, 9% a year. That it we're lucky compared to other nations.

你们享有难以置信的特权，我认为美国和欧洲生活在一个幻想世界里。这与世界上其他地区的生活方式完全脱节。任何听到这段话却从未经历过资本管制的人，我敢说只占全球人口的5%左右。事实上，我们大多数人都经历过资本管制——中国、尼日利亚、委内瑞拉、哥伦比亚、巴西。

You're incredibly privileged, and I would argue that The United States and Europe live in a fantasy world. It's completely disconnected from how the rest of the world lives. And anyone listening to this that hasn't experienced what a capital control is, I would argue is, like, 5% of the world population. Like, the majority of us have experienced capital controls. China, Nigeria, Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil.

顺着名单往下看，资本管制意味着你没有财务自由。你受到压制。这就是世界上大多数人的生存状态。正因如此，比特币对这么多人而言具有颠覆性意义。

Like, you go down the list. And what capital control is is is you're not you don't have freedom to you don't have financial freedom. You're repressed. And that's how most of the world lives. That's why Bitcoin is such a game changer to so many people.

这也是稳定币对这么多人具有革命性价值的原因。大多数人甚至不被允许在本地银行持有美元。在稳定币出现前你们怎么办？囤积现金？这太真实了。

That's why stablecoins are such a game changer for so many people. Most people aren't even allowed to hold dollars in their local banks. What did you do before stablecoins? Hoard cash? This is so true.

这里还有个常被忽视的要点：假设你月收入50美元，月底领到薪水后试图把玻利瓦尔兑换掉，你只能购买现金，因为没有其他选择。你没有富国银行或美国银行的账户来接收数字美元。所以你唯一的选择就是现金。想象你外出兑换...

If you make this is another point that sometimes goes unnoticed. If you're a person making $50 a month, okay, and you get paid at the end of the month and you try to get your bolivares, get get rid of them, and you you have to buy cash because there's nothing else you can buy. You don't have a Wells Fargo account or Bank of America account to get digital dollars into. So you your only option is really cash. So say you go out there.

假设你是玛丽亚，一名护士。周五领到工资后去兑换玻利瓦尔，街上有人给了你一张50美元的假钞。玛丽亚会怎样？这太可怕了。

You're Maria. You're a you're a nurse. You you got paid on Friday, and you went and got rid of your bolivares, and somebody on the street gave you a fake 50. What happens to Maria? This is horrible.

她整个月的劳动成果，就这样化为乌有。我亲眼见过这种事。

Her whole month's work, gone. Gone. And I I've seen this.

人们总是在这种脆弱时刻相互掠夺

And people prey on each other in these weak moments to

得分百分比，因为绝望会导致你做出不理智的决定。

score a percent because desperation leads to you making irrational decisions.

难怪这对你如此个人化。这太棒了。

No wonder this is so personal for you. It's amazing.

对我而言极其个人化。就像，这对我来说，这是我最想帮助赢得的一场大战。我不认为还有比这更大的战斗了。所以

Hugely personal for me. Like, I this is to me, this is the biggest fight that I wanna help win. I don't think there's a bigger fight. So

我可以和你聊上几个小时。但在结束前，我很想听听你对公司以及这个不断增长的行业的愿景，因为根据我们之前的讨论，似乎会有更多人想利用比特币的升值。他们不想卖掉它。所以解决方案就是用它来借款。

I could talk to you for hours. But before we wrap up, I would just love to get kind of your vision for both the company and also really this growing industry because to our earlier points, it seems like a lot more people are going to want to take advantage of the appreciation in their Bitcoin. They don't want to sell it. And so the solution is borrow against it.

是的。关于愿景，我认为比特币支持的贷款将成为一个万亿美元的市场。而且我认为，在现代人类历史上首次，巴塞罗那的人可以用它获得贷款，波哥大的人同样可以。今天，哥伦比亚的人可以从Lennon借到与美国或西班牙人相同的服务质量、利率、条款和一切。嗯。

Yes. So in terms of vision, I think that this is going to be a Bitcoin backed loans is going to be a trillion dollar market. And I think that for the first time in modern human history, you have an asset that a person in Barcelona can use to get a loan in the same way a person in Bogota can use it to get a loan. And today, someone in Colombia can borrow from Lennon with the same quality of service, same rates, same terms, same everything as somebody in, you know, Spain Mhmm. As somebody in The US.

嗯。这就是包容性。这就是今天正在发挥作用的金融包容性。抵押贷款对美国人大获成功。股票对美国人大获成功。

Mhmm. Is inclusion. That is financial inclusion today at play. And mortgages have been wildly successful for Americans. Stocks have been wildly successful for Americans.

我并不是说那些是坏事，但我想说的是，现在，这种活动的规模——即用硬资产借入美元——是第一次，你使用的是一种任何人都可以实时拥有和转移的硬资产。所以对我们来说，我们只想比任何人都做得更好。嗯。会有其他人吗？当然。

I'm not saying that those are bad things, but I'm saying that for now right now, the scale of the transaction or the scale of this activity, which is borrowing dollars using a hard asset, for the first time, you're doing it with a hard asset that anyone can own and move in real time. So for us, we we just wanna do this better than anyone else. Mhmm. And will there be others? Sure.

然后你可以过来，尝试提供比特币抵押贷款，但我们会是最棒的。我们将保持领先地位，这是我们的职责，也是我们的使命——提供最优质的比特币抵押贷款体验。这就是我们专注的全部。

Then you can come and and, you know, try to offer Bitcoin back loans, but we will be the best. And we will we will maintain our lead. That is our job. That is our mission, to deliver the best Bitcoin backed loan experience out there. And that's all we do.

太棒了。非常感谢你参加节目。我打算用我的比特币申请贷款，或许会带观众一起体验这个过程。我们会让它变得非常简单。

I love it. Thank you so much for joining me on the show. I am going to take out a loan against my Bitcoin. Maybe I'll take you guys on the process with me. We'll make it really simple.

你确实说服我了。实际上，对我的粉丝们说，Ledden一直是位优秀的合作伙伴，我非常感激。你们可以访问ledden.ionatalie，专享首笔贷款25个基点的优惠。真的很感谢你的时间。

You've certainly convinced me. And actually, for my followers, Ledden, you've been a great partner. I really appreciate it. You can go to ledden.ionatalie and get 25 basis points off of your first loan for my followers only. I really appreciate the time.

我学到了很多，期待在这个行业发展过程中再次邀请你，了解更多信息。希望到那时我自己也能完成这个贷款流程。谢谢，Mo。

I've learned so much, and I would love to have you back on as this industry grows and learn a little bit more. And hopefully by then, will have experienced this process myself. Thanks, Mo.

就这么定了。谢谢，Nat。

Let's do it. Thanks, Nat.

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