艾琳·韦斯特：席卷全球的浪漫加密骗局——“杀猪盘”解析

悲剧在于人们不知道这一切正在发生。这是沉默的杀手。我说杀手绝非夸张，确实有人因此自杀。成年子女们联系我说，他们完全不知道父亲深陷其中。

The tragedy of it is that people don't know that this is happening. It is the silent killer. And when I say killer, I do mean that. People are committing suicide. Adult children are reaching out to me and saying, I had no idea my dad was in this.

他输光了全部家产，然后结束了自己的生命。这已成为一种社会瘟疫。

He lost the entire family fortune, and then he killed himself. This is an epidemic.

大家好，欢迎回到节目。本周我们邀请到了艾琳·韦斯特。她是国际公认的演讲家和教育家，专攻跨国组织犯罪领域，同时也是'三叶草行动'的创始人，该组织致力于应对日益严重的全球'杀猪盘'诈骗问题。你可能以为自己了解这种骗局，但当我深入了解时感到非常震惊。鉴于最近的新闻头条，我迫不及待想了解更多。

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Joining me this week is Erin West. She is a globally recognized speaker and educator specializing in transnational organized crime, and she's the founder of Operation Shamrock, which tackles the growing global problem of pig butchering scams. You might think you know what that is, but when I learned about it, I was very, very surprised, and I can't wait to learn a little bit more given the recent headlines.

艾琳，非常感谢你能来参加节目。

So, Erin, thank you so much for joining me.

非常感谢给我这个机会向听众们讲述这个重大威胁。

Oh, thank you so much for the opportunity to talk to your audience about this massive threat.

我想告诉听众们，最初是在伊芙财富峰会上听到你的演讲，你的炉边谈话让我着迷。当时我完全不知道存在这种现象，不知道它涉及加密货币，也不明白这背后的人口贩卖问题有多严重。能否请你解释什么是'杀猪盘'诈骗？你又是如何介入这个领域的？

Well, you know, I just wanna mention to the audience that I first heard you speak at the Eve Wealth Summit, and I was fascinated by your fireside. I didn't even know that this was happening. I didn't know that it involved cryptocurrency, and I didn't understand how big of a human trafficking problem it it was. So let's just break down what is a pig butchering scam, and how did you get involved in all this?

我完全理解初次听闻时的震撼，我第一次听说时也有同样感受。'杀猪盘'本质上是场持久骗局，结合了恋爱诈骗和加密货币投资骗局。我担任检察官时首次接触这类案件，当时我在高科技犯罪调查组工作了26年半。

Well, I certainly understand that when you first hear about it, it really it it kind of blows your mind, and I felt the same way the first time I heard about it. A pig butchering scam is essentially a long con. It is a romance scam slash investment scheme, crypto investment scheme. And I heard about this when I was working as a prosecutor. I was a prosecutor for twenty six and a half years attached to a high-tech investigation team.

从2022年3月开始（不是3月22日，而是2022年3月），我们开始看到受害者失去所有积蓄。这就是骗局的本质。其运作方式主要有四种：你会收到一条群发短信，比如'嘿，你把鞋子落在我车上了'，或是'周日高尔夫几点见？'

And starting in March 22, March not March 22, but in March 2022, we started seeing victims who had lost every penny they had. That's the nature of this scheme. The way it works is someone will reach out to you in basically one of four ways. You'll get one of those texts that everybody is getting that says, hey. You left your shoes in my car, or what time are we meeting for golf on Sunday?

对话就此开始。你可能在交友软件、领英或Meta平台上认识某人，经过四个月的精心铺垫，你会相信自己终于遇到了梦寐以求的真爱。这些骗子正是利用了全球性的孤独危机，利用人们对人际连接的渴望——渴望被看见、被倾听。他们长期提供这种情感需求，同时向你展示高端生活方式。

And that begins the conversation. Or you might meet someone on a dating app or on LinkedIn or on the Meta platform, and that conversation turns into a four month grooming process where you'll be led to believe that you are in the relationship that you always wanted. These scammers are really preying on a loneliness epidemic globally, and they're preying on the fact that people want a human connection, and they wanna be seen and heard. And these scammers are providing just that for a long period of time. And at the same time they're doing that, they're showing you this elevated lifestyle.

他们会展示自己练瑜伽、打高尔夫、到处旅行、开路虎。最终话题会转向'你怎么负担得起这种生活？'这时骗子就会说：'哦，我投资加密货币。本来也不懂，是我叔叔教的，他也可以教你。'这就是骗局的第二阶段。

They are showing you that they do yoga, play golf, travel well, drive a Range Rover. And ultimately, the discussion comes of how are you able to afford this? And that's when the scammer will say, oh, well, I invest in cryptocurrency. I didn't know how to do it, but my uncle taught me, and my uncle could teach you. And that's the second phase of the scam.

所以他们本质上是在向受害者要钱？通过一个链接，让人们把自己的积蓄转给他们？

And so they essentially ask the victim for money, and they have a link, and you start people start sending them their savings?

是的。让我用听众能理解的方式解释：第一次听说时我也觉得不可思议。但经过四个月的洗脑，受害者每天与骗子长时间聊天，已经深信彼此会有未来。

Yeah. So let me explain that in a way that'll make sense to your listeners. Because the first time I heard that, I thought, I don't know why someone would do that. That doesn't make So sense to what happens is, you've been sold a dream for four months. You've been texting hours a day with this person, and you've been led to believe that you are going to have a future with them.

你们会结婚、买房，所以你已经透露过存款金额和存放地点。然后他们展示一个投资方案，从小额开始。关键点是：你是在'自主控制'投资。

You're gonna marry them. You guys are buying a house. And so you've discussed how much money you have and where your money is located. Then you are shown an investment scheme, and they start off small. And and a key feature of this is you are controlling your own investment for yourself.

你并不是把钱交给别人，而是投入一个看似正规的投资平台——界面做得和摩根大通、Coinbase等知名平台一模一样。按他们指导操作后，其实整个平台都是假的，钱已被盗。但你看到的精美仪表盘显示：投入的5000元已变成6800、7800，一周后就会突破万元。

You're not giving anyone any money. You're putting money into what you believe is an investment platform, and it looks just like JPMorgan or Coinbase or any other known financial platform. You put your money into this at their direction, and when you move your money into this platform, it's actually completely fake, and your money's been stolen from you. But what you see is this beautiful dashboard that shows you that the 5,000 you put in is now 6,800, 7,800. By the end of the week, it's $10,000.

就在那时你被引导着相信，天啊。说实话，我们无法与那种激素驱动的感觉竞争——'我正处在一段美妙的新恋情中，而且越来越富有'。于是这些骗子就会引导你：'为什么不投入更多钱？为什么不从你的401k退休金里取钱？你看赚的钱足够缴税了'，人们就这样被误导了。

And that's when you're led to believe, oh my gosh. And quite honestly, we can't compete with the hormones of, I'm in this new fantastic loving relationship, and I'm getting wealthy. And so that's when these scammers will lead you to, well, why don't you put some more money in? Why don't you take money out of your four zero one k? You can see that you're making enough money to pay the taxes on it, and people are misled.

这场骗局直到你投入最后一分钱才会结束。

And the game does not end until you've literally put every penny that you have into this scheme.

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Just visit the link in my show notes. The book comes out November 18. This is so crazy. A couple of years ago, I went to a conference, and I don't wanna dox the the the person that I'm speaking about because he's very prominent in the Bitcoin space, But I'll never forget how heartbroken he felt because someone came up to him, just a huge fan, because this this guy, he's a globally known speaker and author, and someone came up to him and had come to the conference just to meet him and thank him for putting him on one of these platforms. So he thought he was having a conversation with this very well known Bitcoiner.

实际上，那完全是个冒牌货创建了这些仪表盘之一。他把家人的毕生积蓄都投了进去，上面显示投资在不断增值，某一年甚至疯狂上涨了三位数的百分比。他和家人一起，几乎花光了剩下的钱，然后找到这个人说'我只想感谢你'。而他根本不知道对方是谁。这时他才脸色煞白地意识到这全是骗局，他实实在在地失去了家人的全部积蓄。

And in actuality, it was a total impersonator who had created one of these dashboards. He was sending his family's life savings to it, and it showed that the investments were going up, that it had gone up like some crazy, you know, three digit percentage in a given year. And he was there with his family, like, spending basically the rest of their money and came up to this person and was like, I just wanna thank you. And he had no clue who he was. And that's when he went white in the face and realized that it was all a scam, and he had lost literally his family's life savings.

所以看来甚至不需要有浪漫关系对吧？我的意思是，这些骗局的受害者有男有女，似乎任何人都可能成为目标？

So it doesn't even have to be a romantic connection apparently. Right? I mean, men, women, like, who are the the the targets of these? Because it seems like it could be anyone.

是的。很遗憾听说你对这事有所了解，因为这正是大规模发生的情况。我每天都能听到好几次这样的故事。规模就是这么大。但你说得对。

Yeah. I I'm sorry to hear that that you you have some familiarity with this because that's what's happening at scale. That story I hear that story multiple times per day. That's how big it is. But you're right.

我想很多人可能愿意相信这种事只发生在老年人或极度脆弱的人身上。但我们需要明白的是，这正在大规模地发生在你认识的人身上。你与受害者只有一度之隔，只是你不知道，因为受害者羞于启齿。但事实和数据表明，男女都会受害。实际上60岁以下的人比60岁以上的人更常受害。

I think a lot of people might like to believe that this is happening to elderly people or extremely vulnerable people. But the piece that we need to understand is that this is happening at scale to people you know. That you are one degree away from this, and you don't know it because people are so humiliated that they don't want to share that information with you. But the fact is, and the statistics show, it's happening to men and women. It's happening actually more frequently to people 60 than people 60.

我们经常以为骗子从60岁以上人群那里骗到更多钱是因为他们更有钱。但数据显示并非如此。统计表明60岁以下人群损失的金额总数更大。所以事实是，我们正面临一场危机级别的全球金融攻击，悲剧在于人们对此毫不知情。这是无声的杀手。

And then frequently, we believe, well, they're getting more money from the 60 year olds because they have more money. Well, actually, that's not what the statistics show. Statistics show that more money is being lost from people 60 in total. So the fact is, what we have here is a crisis level attack, a financial attack on the world, and the tragedy of it is that people don't know that this is happening. It is the silent killer.

我说'杀手'是字面意思。真的有人因此自杀。成年子女联系我说'完全不知道父亲卷入这种事'。他输光了全家财产后自杀了。这已是场瘟疫。

And when I say killer, I do mean that. People are committing suicide. Adult children are reaching out to me and saying, I had no idea my dad was in this. He lost the entire family fortune, and then he killed himself. This is an epidemic.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为你在峰会上分享的最令人震惊的事情之一就是这些国际农场，被拐卖的人们紧挨着坐在一起，他们很可能在亚洲的某个地方，整夜与美国那边的人通话。刚才看到的最后一辆巴士是在柬埔寨。你能谈谈这个实际过程吗？因为我觉得这部分简直令人震惊。

Well, so I think one of the most shocking things that you shared at the summit is that there are these farms essentially, internationally, where people are sitting right next to each other who have been trafficked, who are talking to people likely in The United States trying to do this overnight wherever they're living, likely in Asia. Right? The last bus that we just saw was in Cambodia. Can you talk about the actual process of this? Because I think that that was the part that was just so just just shocking.

这确实令人震惊，我认为其中有两点让人瞠目结舌。第一点是这种行为的工业化规模。现场的情况很难用言语描述，你可以想象一个大学宿舍，一个大学校园。想象那栋八层高的宿舍楼住满了学生，现在每个房间放四张上下铺，八个人挤在一个房间里。

It is shocking, and and I think there are two jaw dropping pieces of this. The first one is this is being done on an industrialized scale. The scale of what is happening is really hard to convey. What is happening on the ground, you can picture a college dormitory, and you can picture a college campus. So when you think of that dormitory, eight stories tall, housing plenty of students, well, imagine if they filled that dormitory with four bunk beds per room, and now you have eight people per room in this massive structure.

现在假设有十六栋这样的建筑，被两米高的水泥墙围住，墙顶还架着铁丝网。只有一个由持AK47武装人员把守的警卫岗亭作为出入口。这就是一个园区的规模。而我们知道，在东南亚有数百个这样的园区正在运作。

But now let's say you have 16 structures just like that that are walled in with cement walls that are two stories tall with barbed wire on the top of them. There is a guard gate that enables access. That's the only access to this whole campus, and it's mans with men with a k 47. That is one compound. And what we know is that this is happening in hundreds of compounds in Southeast Asia.

第一点让人震惊的是，天啊，这种事情正在大学校园规模的设施里发生。第二点是，天啊，电话那头被我戏弄的那个人，其实是被拐卖来的，现在被迫从事犯罪活动。全球失业问题使得人们容易受到高薪诱惑，这些工作承诺的报酬是他们正常收入的数倍。

And the number of so that's the that's jaw dropping piece number one is, oh my goodness. This is happening in college campus size facilities. And then the second one is, oh my goodness. The person on the other side of this phone that I've been kind of messing with, that person was trafficked in and is now in forced criminality being required to do this work. What's happening is we've got unemployment issues all over the world, and that makes people vulnerable to an offer of employment that is multiple times what they could earn.

我在乌干达遇到一个男子，他原本在网吧工作月薪100美元。一个乌干达同乡告诉他：'我能让你月入千元，但得去曼谷。不过没关系，你会住在工作生活一体的园区里，当电脑操作员。'

I spoke to a man in Uganda who was making 100 a month in his Internet cafe. Fellow Ugandan comes in and says, I can get you a thousand dollars a month, but you gotta go to Bangkok. But it's fine. You're gonna be in a live work facility. You'll be a computer operator.

对于一个23岁的乌干达青年来说，这简直是天赐良机。干半年就能挣到在乌干达五年才能赚到的钱。但等他们到了那里，就被关在有围墙的园区里被告知：'现在你是个骗子了。'

And for a 23 year old Ugandan man, that's a that's an excellent opportunity. I can do that for six months and make what it would take me five years to make in Uganda. And so that's what's happening. And then when they get there, they're in a walled in facility, and they're told, okay. Now you're a scammer.

你要和其他乌干达人、孟加拉人、印度人一起每天工作十六小时。如果不从，就会遭到棒球棍的殴打。

You work sixteen hours a day in a line with all your fellow Ugandans, Bangladeshis, Indians. And if you don't do this, we will hit you with baseball bats.

我是说，我认为这对美国人来说将是当头一棒。因为有时候你收到短信，对我来说，我可能就直接删了，根本不会多想。但对面那个人，可能也是被迫的，不是什么高明的骗子或黑客，而是基本相当于被强迫从事奴工，看起来是这样。对吧？他们真的能拿到报酬吗？

I mean, I I think a lot of this is gonna be it's gonna be a slap in the face for Americans. Because sometimes you get the text and you I mean, for me, I just kind of, like, delete it, and I don't think a a second thing. But there was someone on the other side, right, that may have been forced into this, that isn't some sophisticated scammer or hacker that's trying to get you is actually basically forced into slave labor, it seems like. Right? Do they actually get paid?

他们能逃离这个体系吗？你

Can they escape out of this system? You're

完全正确，这就是奴工。由于这种情况已被默许存在超过五年，我们已有数十万人陷入这种奴役处境，他们不被允许离开。电报上有视频显示试图逃跑者的遭遇——被抓回来遭受杖刑，场面非常恐怖。但极少数成功逃脱的案例，都是因为像中国这样的国家出面要求'必须释放我国公民'。当这种压力施加到园区时，确实会有部分人获释。

absolutely right that it is slave labor. And what happens is we've got because this has been allowed to happen for now going on over five years, we have hundreds of thousands of people that are in in these slave labor situations, and they are not allowed to leave. There's there's videos that are available on telegram showing what happens when people try to leave, and they are brought back, and they're caned, and it's and it's horrific. But, really, the the few times that people have gotten out, it's been because an entity like China, a country like China has said, you're gonna need to release our people. And when that kind of pressure has been put on these compounds, there has been some release.

但大多数情况下，一旦进去就出不来了。除非花钱赎身，虽然他们常会获得支付赎金的机会，但金额通常高到根本负担不起。即便在园区内有报酬，也只是维持基本生存的微薄收入。

But for the most part, if you're inside, you're staying inside. And unless you can buy your way out, often they'll be given an opportunity to pay for their way out, but it's usually a number that there's no way they could afford. And if they are getting paid inside, it is, it's a minimum minimum amount of money that they need to use for their existence inside the compound.

明白了。这方面有太多疑问——谁在运营这些园区？为什么主要集中在东南亚？

Okay. So so many questions about this. Who is running these compounds, and why are they primarily located in Southeast Asia?

要理解这点，需要回溯几年前中国有组织犯罪的情况。这些犯罪集团总在寻找新财路，他们曾想建造赌场大厦，也确实在柬埔寨建成了赌城。当时中国正在修建通往柬埔寨海滩的高速公路，他们想打造新澳门，通过巨型建筑从中国赌博市场获利。但疫情来袭导致人流中断，这些空置的巨型建筑就被闲置了。

To understand this, it's it's worth going back a few years and thinking about Chinese organized criminals. Chinese organized criminals are always looking for for the next big game, and they thought that they could build casino towers, and they did build casino towers in Cambodia. China was building a high speed road from China to the beaches in Cambodia, and they thought they could build the new Macau. They could build these massive structures and, and capitalize on the Chinese gambling market. But COVID hit, and people weren't moving, and they were left with these massive uninhabited towers.

于是他们转向了新骗局——'杀猪盘'（这是他们的术语）。那些空置的巨型建筑就这样被人口贩卖的受害者填满了。

And they thought, well, let's move on to another scheme. Let's move on to pig butchering. It's it's their term. They call it Shazupan. And so they filled those massive towers with human traffic victims.

整个行动由中国有组织犯罪集团操控，其在东南亚猖獗的原因在于能产生巨额财富。我们目睹的是一代人积累的财富正被窃取。这些数字绝非小数——每人百万美元、五十万美元的规模，堪称天文数字。

The entire operation is run by Chinese organized criminal syndicates, and the reason why it is flourished in Southeast Asia is because of the massive amount of wealth it generates. What we're seeing happen is we are having stolen from us a generation's worth of wealth. These are not small numbers. These are a million dollars per person, $500,000 per person. They're massive, massive numbers.

当你能攫取如此巨量财富时，便拥有收买任何阻碍者的权势与能力。在柬埔寨这类政治生态腐败根深蒂固的地区，这些中国黑帮分子得以通过金钱贿赂统治阶层。这正是该模式在柬埔寨等能用金钱换取犯罪许可的国家大行其道的原因。

And when you're taking in that kind of massive wealth, you have a lot of power, and you have a lot of ability to pay off anybody who might be standing in your way. So with the political scene and embedded corruption that is inherent in a place like Cambodia, these bad actors, these known Chinese organized criminals were able to buy their way into favor with the ruling elite. And that's why it's absolutely flourished in Cambodia and in other countries where you have the ability to buy your way into allowing bad things to happen.

请谈谈端掉这类犯罪集团需要哪些行动？我们刚看到司法部首次查获价值数十亿美元比特币的新闻——许多观众可能正是通过这则'杀猪盘'相关报道首次接触该术语。请解析行动难点并分享您对此案的看法。

So talk to me about what it takes to actually, take down one of these operations, because we just saw a headline. I think the first time some of my viewers might have heard the term pig butchering scam was this recent DOJ headline saying that they, were able to seize billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin. Talk to us about what that takes and maybe your reaction to this recent story.

首先这是重大利好消息。这些长期逍遥法外的恶徒终于被司法部起诉，相当于宣告：我们已锁定你们的犯罪行为，看清你们如何窃取美国民众财产。

First, it's fantastic news. It's fantastic news because these bad actors, these known bad actors, have been able to act with impunity for years. And by this indictment, the Department of Justice is saying, we see you. We see what you're doing over there. We see how you're stealing from Americans.

本案突破性在于掌握了幕后主使柬埔寨大亨的直接罪证。不同于通常远离日常犯罪的黑帮头目，陈吉（音）亲自参与人身伤害等具体犯罪活动。

And in this indictment, it's groundbreaking in terms of the information that they were able to get about this Cambodian tycoon who's behind all this. They were able to establish that he personally was involved in so much of this. Now frequently, when you think of mob bosses, you think of them being a little bit isolated from the day to day. Not Chenji. He was involved in the physical beatings of people.

他深度介入资金流转，直接操控这个以诈骗起家的千亿美元帝国。犯罪资金通过洗白转入合法商业，使'追踪资金'的常规侦查手段失效——中国洗钱者极擅此道。本案创纪录的150亿美元罚没金额仅是其犯罪帝国的冰山一角，足见其经手的黑金规模何等庞大。这彰显了美国的执法威力，也揭示了我们面对的敌人何等强大——这正是我持续发声的原因，此类犯罪堪称'无声杀手'。

He was involved in the movement of money. He was instantly involved in running these these running a $100,000,000,000 empire that was primarily built on scamming, but then that money in cleaning it was moved into legitimate businesses, making it more difficult for we always say follow the money, but but these Chinese money launderers are adept at making following the money extremely difficult to do. So the indictment himself is a major statement of the power of The United States and that this can be done. And when you think about the $15,000,000,000 forfeiture action by The United States, what that's saying is and the fact that that's the largest ever, and that is a very, very small piece of his empire, it shows exactly how much illicit money flew through this man's fingers. That's how big the enemy is, and that's why I can't stop, won't stop talking about this because I think this is, again, the silent killer.

民众尚未意识到事态严重性，因为犯罪者采取逐户渗透的方式。受害弱势群体缺乏游说力量，难以让世界看清这场全球性灾难的真相。

People don't realize what is happening because they're doing it household by household. Right. And and hurt vulnerable people don't have the the lobbying power to make sure the world understands what's happening on a nash global scale.

那么，通过这次民事没收，受害者们是否有希望至少拿回部分资金？我认为这应该是这笔资金的首要用途。

Well, with this civil forfeiture, is there any hope that at least some of the victims will get their money back? I feel like that should be the top priority with these funds.

我完全赞同。我与你立场一致，这无疑将是我在处理此事期间工作的重点部分。问题在于如何确定哪些受害者有权获得这笔资金，以及我们该如何追踪相关人员——特别是与王子集团帝国有关联的人。我认为在这种情形下，合理的做法是——这也是我应对整个'骗局大流行'的座右铭之一——我们必须以前所未有的方式思考对策。我们从未遭遇过如此全球性的金融攻击。

I sure feel the same way. I'm I'm right with you on that, and and certainly, is a major part of the work that I will be doing over over the pendency of this situation. The problem is trying to determine which victims would be entitled to this money, how we are going to how we would be able to trace people to particularly the Prince Group empire. So I think what makes sense in a situation like this, one of the one of the mottos, one of the ways that I approach this entire scandemic is that we have to think of doing things in a way we have not done them before. We have never had a worldwide financial attack on us like this.

所以我们需要思考：假设我们能做到呢？正如你所说，假设我们能建立受害者基金呢？假设我们能找到方法为受害者提供心理援助呢？为受害者提供生活物资，满足他们最基本的需求。是的，这条路并不清晰，但真正重要的事情往往都是如此。

So we need to think about what if we could. And exactly what you said, what if we could create a victim fund? What if we could figure out some ways to get mental health assistance to these victims? Some groceries to these victims, some just some really basic things that these victims need. And so, no, there's no easy clear path for this, but there's no easy clear path for a lot of things that really matter.

因此，如何驾驭现有法律体系以惠及这群史无前例的受害者群体，是我们的首要任务。

And so figuring out how to wrangle the existing legal system in a way that benefits this unprecedented class of victims is a top priority.

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BitKey是一款具备多重签名安全、继承功能和现实生活场景恢复系统的比特币硬件钱包。无需复杂设置，无需助记词，轻松实现真正的自我托管。它被《时代》杂志评为2024年度最佳发明之一。使用优惠码stories可在bitkey.world享受8折优惠。

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接下来介绍比特币之道。保护你的比特币免受政府、政客和第三方风险影响的唯一方法，就是100%自主托管。比特币之道的朋友们将首次就教你正确的方法，绝不妥协。请访问bitcoinway.com/natalie与专家交流，确保你的比特币安全私密。

Up next, the Bitcoin Way. There's only one way to protect your Bitcoin from government, politicians, and third party risk, and that is 100% self custody. My friends at the Bitcoin Way will train you how to do this the right way the first time. No compromises. Go to the bitcoinway.com/natalie to speak with the experts about making sure your Bitcoin is secure and private.

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而是以比特币衡量。再次提醒，别忘了预订我的新书《比特币属于每个人》。回到节目。嗯，我相信当你面对多个国家、多种司法管辖区、不同国籍时，难度会增加十倍。这看起来复杂得令人抓狂。

It's measured in Bitcoin. And again, don't forget to preorder my upcoming book, Bitcoin is for Everyone. Back to the show. Well, and I'm sure it makes it 10 times harder when you're dealing with multiple nations, many jurisdictions, different nationalities. It just seems so crazy complicated.

这就是三叶草行动特别关注的吗？能否详细谈谈你们的组织如何协助打击这类骗局？

Is this what Operation Shamrock specifically focuses on? Like, can you talk a little bit more about your organization and how it helps with this with this scam?

是的。我之前说过我曾是检察官，长期担任这一职务。在我职业生涯的最后三年，我遇到了一类从未见过的受害者群体。那种梦想破灭的打击——‘我以为遇到了梦中情人’——对人造成的影响实在难以言表。

Yes. So I I told you I was a prosecutor. I was a prosecutor for a a good long time. And the last three years of my career, I was deluged by a class of victim I had never seen before. There is something that is so difficult to put into words of the effect on a person to have an entire dream crush of, I thought I met the man of my dreams.

我们本打算在海边建房子。却在同一天意识到，不仅这个梦想不存在，那个人从一开始就在背叛我。他们盯上我，欺骗我数月，然后窃取了我全部的经济基础。经济保障本能让人们保持生活信心——只要能付得起房租就有安全感。但他们却在同一天夺走了这两样东西。我们面对的是一群彻底崩溃的人。

I thought we were gonna build a house on the coast. And then on that same day to realize, not only does that not exist, but that person was betraying me from the jump. They saw me, spotted me, betrayed me for months, and then stole my entire financial footing, which gives people a level of confidence in their life that no matter what they if if they can if they can pay their rent, there's some sort of comfort to that. But what they've done is they've taken both of those things away on the same day. We've got a completely devastated class of people.

因此我在检察官办公室的工作重点就是：该如何帮助这些受害者？很容易说‘钱在海外，坏人在海外，我们无能为力’。但我始终秉持‘万一我们能做点什么呢’的视角。

And so my work at the DA's office was what do we do with a what do we do with all of these victims? It would be very easy to say, well, the money's overseas. The bad guys are overseas. There's nothing we can do about this. But again, I operate from a what if we could perspective.

如果我们能帮助这第一位受害者——一位30岁的软件工程师，他以为自己找到了新娘，却失去了全部财产。如果我们能追踪他的加密货币呢？这正是加入高科技特别行动组的好处，我们懂得如何追踪加密资产。于是我们追踪了这笔钱。这部分内容对你的听众可能很有趣，因为我们追踪的方式——这就是区块链的美妙之处——它是不可篡改的。

And what if we could take this first victim that came to us, a 30 year old male software engineer who thought he'd found his bride and lost his entire net worth. What if we could trace his cryptocurrency? And that was the benefit of being with a high-tech task force is we knew how to trace crypto. So we traced it. And, and this part may be interesting for your for your listeners because the way we traced it was, I mean, this is the beauty of the blockchain is it's immutable.

它是透明的。我们发现他的资金流向了币安。而2022年的币安对执法机构并不算友好，我们无法预知他们的反应。我们对币安没有管辖权，他们刻意将总部设在美国境外。

It's transparent. We could figure out that that his funds were at finance. And in 2022, finance wasn't super law enforcement friendly, and and so we didn't know what they would do. We don't have any jurisdiction over Binance. They're deliberately located outside The United States.

但如果我们能做到呢？如果我们能联系币安内部有同理心的人，告诉他们：'听着，让我讲讲这个人的遭遇'——这正是我们的做法。而他们回应：'我们会配合搜查令'。

But what if we could? What if we could reach out to Binance, find people inside that care, and say, hey. Let me tell you about this guy and what happened to him. And that's exactly what we did. And they said, we will honor a search warrant.

他们本无义务，但愿意配合我们签发的搜查令。收到文件后就会返还资金。重申一次，这在加州并无法律依据，我们是在用一套陈旧的、不兼容加密货币的体系运作。但万一成功了呢？万一我们能设法突破困境呢？

We don't have to, but we will honor a search warrant from you. And when we receive it, we will return those funds. And so, again, no legal no legal basis for this in California. We're working with, an antiquated system that's not set up for cryptocurrency, but what if we could? What if we could wrangle this and figure out a way to get it done?

当时我们无法预判法官的态度。要向可能对加密货币持有偏见的法官解释这一切。但我的团队非常出色，他们用文书清晰阐述了案情，而我则竭尽全力论证此事的重要性。最终到2022年，我们不仅帮这位男士追回资金，还挽救了其他七名受害者的损失。

And and then we didn't know what a judge would think of this. We're we're explaining cryptocurrency to judges who may have any kind of opinion about cryptocurrency. But I work with a brilliant team who was able to articulate this in paper a way that a judge could make sense, and I went in and and argued my face off about why this mattered. And ultimately, by the 2022, we were able to get that man his money back and seven other victims who had lost their money.

哇。那CZ肯定帮了大忙，毕竟他当时执掌币安。

Wow. And then we c z must have been helpful in this, because he was running Binance at the time.

没错。虽然我不清楚CZ本人是否知情，但他的执法团队表现卓越且持续提供巨大帮助。坦白说，没有币安的协助，我们根本不可能完成这些工作。

Right? He was. He was. So I I couldn't speak to what c z actually knew, but I will tell you his law enforcement team was amazing and continues to be amazing and super helpful, and we could not have done the work that we've done without without the help of finance. And quite frankly yeah.

请继续。坦白说，我当时想说，那是个战术性决定，币安确实提供了极大帮助。我该不该公开这件事？公开会不会反而告诉坏人‘币安会把钱退给美国’？这确实是个有趣的处境，关键在于如何推进后续工作。

Go ahead. I was gonna say, quite frankly, it was a it was a tactical decision at the time of Binance has been amazingly helpful. Do I do I tell the public this, or does that then tell the bad guys, oh, Binance will give our money back to The United States? So it it it was an interesting situation to be in is to determine how to proceed from there.

你提出了关于这项新技术的绝妙观点。实际上你可以清晰追踪每笔交易的完整流转路径——从A到B再到C。如果有顶尖的 forensic分析师，这种追踪方式在传统金融体系里根本无法实现。你不觉得这种可验证性和透明度，正是转向这类货币网络的最大亮点吗？

Well, bring up a fascinating point about this new technology. You can actually see and trace where the transactions are all going, one to the next to the next. So if you have really good forensic analysts, you can track that money in a way that you could never do in the traditional financial system. Don't you think that this is actually one of the highlights of of moving to a monetary network that has this kind of verifiability and transparency about it?

我认为这为我们提供了成为更优秀侦探的绝佳机会。我们拥有的是一个人人可访问的账本，一个公认准确且不可篡改的账本。想想传统金融调查：我们要向银行发传票，苦等银行回复，资金在流动而我们却追赶不上。而现在，我们能实时监控资金流向。

I think it gives us an amazing opportunity to be better detectives. I think that what we've got is we've got a ledger. We've got a ledger that we can all have access to, that we've agreed is accurate, and that cannot be changed. And so when you think of traditional financial investigation where we are issuing subpoenas to banks, waiting for banks to get back to us, money's moving, and we can't keep up with it. Here, we can monitor in real time exactly where that money's going.

确实如此。当调查人员受过专业训练并配备合适工具时，区块链就能成为绝佳的调查工具——前提是运用得当。

And so it does. When used when used well, when have when we have the, investigators with the appropriate training and tools, the blockchain is an amazing investigative tool.

没错。尤其是涉及离岸公司和空壳公司时，银行就像封闭花园，你根本看不到资金实际流向。好吧，我还有个更刁钻的问题。

Yeah. Because the banks, especially when you're talking about offshore and shell companies, they're like walled gardens. You can't see where the money's actually going. Okay. I have I have more of, like, a a devil's advocate question.

假设有观众正在看这段内容，他们可能会想‘天啊，我绝不会上当’。怎么会有人如此轻信素未谋面的人，甚至以为和陌生人建立了某种关系？也许他们对这类遭遇缺乏同理心。对此你会怎么回应？

Let's say someone is watching this or listening to it, and they're like, oh my gosh. You know, I would never fall for one of these. How can someone be so irresponsible that they would never have met this person, and they're trusting them and thinking that they're in some kind of a relationship with basically a stranger, and maybe they don't have the type of sympathy, for this type of situation. What do you say to them?

我会说绝大多数人都这么想。如果你也这么认为，说明你并不孤单。但真相是：虽然你觉得不会发生在自己身上，但确实有无数人——包括你认识的人——会中招。比如前几天我收到的短信‘今晚来我家吃肋排’这种套路。

I would say that most people think that. I would say that you are in good company if you think that. But here's what I would say that is really happening. There are a lot of people, and you may think it wouldn't be you, but there are plenty of people, people that you know that will respond to let's just say it's the text of, I got one the other day. Come over to my house for ribs tonight.

相当不错，相当不错。我今晚可能想去你家吃排骨，因为我不想做饭。事实上，很多人会对这种情况做出回应，而当你回应后，接下来出现的往往是一张非常迷人的照片——通常是一位年轻漂亮的女性，她会说：'嗨，我是杰西卡。'

That's pretty good. That's pretty good. I might like to come over to your house for ribs tonight because I don't feel like cooking. So so the fact is people there are a lot of people who will respond to that, and the next thing that happens when you respond is a picture of a very attractive frequently, it's a woman, a very attractive young woman, and she says, hi. I'm Jessica.

希望没有打扰到你。说实话，如果你认为自己不会上当，也许吧。但请接受这种可能性：你的兄弟或表亲可能会，因为他们确实上当了。我的收件箱里全是这类邮件。

I hope I'm not bothering you. And I gotta tell you, if you think you wouldn't fall for that, maybe. But be open to the possibility that your brother did or your cousin did because they did. They literally did, and my email box is full of them.

所以他们更倾向于针对男性而非女性吗？

So Do they target men more than women?

你知道吗，有趣的是他们并非如此，因为有很多女性也是这类骗局的受害者，除了杰西卡们，还有不少伊万和伊桑。我认为可能针对的方式不同。对女性的目标更多是在社交媒体平台或交友网站上。因为当他们投放这些照片时，主角主要是女性。

You know, it's funny. I they do not because there are plenty of women who are victims of this, and there are plenty of Evans and Ethan's out there in addition to the Jessica's. I I think that perhaps the targeting is different. I think that the targeting of women is potentially more on social media platforms or dating sites. Because when they do this when they do this photo drop in, it's primarily a woman.

但我想对那些持怀疑态度的人说：我理解。当我还是检察官时，第一次听说爱情骗局，我也不明白这是怎么发生的。所以我创办了一个播客，名叫《与亚伦·韦斯特一起揭秘盗窃》。

But what I will say to your skeptics out there is I get it. I understand. When I was a prosecutor, the first time I heard about a romance scam, and I I thought, I I don't understand how this happens. So, I started a podcast. My podcast is called Stolen with Aaron West.

在我的播客里，我邀请了经历过这类事件的人。你可以听到他们亲口讲述，坦白说，正是这样我才真正理解。我最早采访的受害者之一是卡琳娜，她美丽善良，

And on my podcast, I have people on there that this has happened to. And you can hear in their own words, and quite frankly, it was it took that for me to understand it. My one of the first victims I talked to is Karina. She is attractive. She's kind.

四十多岁，铁人三项运动员，拥有博士学位。起初很难理解这种事怎么会发生在她身上，直到我读了她所谓的'宣言'——其实就是她对事件的叙述。随着阅读深入，你会逐渐明白：'哦，原来你是这样做出决定的。'

She's mid forties. She's a triathlete. She has a PhD. And it was difficult to understand how this could have happened to her until I read her she she calls it her manifesto, but it's her her her account of what happened. And you see as she goes through it, like, oh, I see why you made that decision.

哦，我明白他为何那么说了。哦，哦，好吧。换作是我可能也会那样做。这些人正在经历的是一种非常人性化的体验。他们获得了自己从未想过可能得到的关注与爱。

Oh, I could see why he justified that. Oh, oh, okay. I might have gone that way too. It's it's a very human experience that's happening to these people. They are getting attention and love that they did not think was possible.

敌人的技能水平超乎你的想象。他们动用心理学博士来研究如何锁定美国人，诱使他们做出平时绝不会做的事。

The skill level of the enemy is beyond what you could imagine. They are using people with PhDs in psychology to figure out how to lock in Americans and get them to do things that they would not ordinarily do.

嗯，结合你刚才说的，我们确实面临孤独危机。人们整天泡在网上，刚开始只是和人闲聊，转眼间对话就变得越发阴暗，最后竟开始往某些网站汇款。不过我更想知道防范措施——作为这个领域的公众人物，我遭遇过无数冒名顶替者。

Well, and to your earlier point, we do have this loneliness epidemic. People are sitting online. They start chatting with someone, and before you know it, things get deeper and darker, and suddenly you're sending money to some website. I'm curious though, ways to prevent this. I mean, I've experienced being a public figure in this space, countless impersonators.

我举报完一个，又冒出新账号，就像打地鼠游戏。他们确实会向人要钱，这太让人沮丧又害怕。所以我总提醒大家要认准蓝V认证标记。

And I report them, and it's like whack a mole. And another one comes up, and they do. They ask people for money. It's so frustrating and scary. And I and I warn people, you know, look for the blue check mark.

千万别汇款。我永远不会向你要钱。但还是有人上当。我常收到这样的消息：'你怎么不聊了？'或者'我把钱转给了冒充你的人'。

Don't send money. I'm never gonna ask you for money. But people are falling for it. And I'll I'll get messages being like, hey. You stopped chatting with me, or, you know, I lost my money sending it to who I thought was you.

这些社交平台难道不能做点什么吗？

Like, can't these social media platforms help?

哈，这下你可戳中我的痛点了——他们本应做得更多，也完全有这个能力。你并不孤单。作为这个领域的公众人物，你的形象、公信力正被这样滥用，这本身就是受害。也许你还没意识到，但当人们误以为你骗了他们的钱时，愤怒的矛头却指向了你。

Well, now you've hit one of my one of my hot buttons because they should be doing so much more, and they are certainly fully capable of doing much more. You're not alone. You the fact that you are a public figure in this space, you're going to be used in that way, and that makes you a victim. You may not have thought of it in that way, but the fact that your image, your likeness, your credibility, your integrity is being used in this way, makes you a victim, and that you don't you don't need people being angry with you. You don't need people, right, thinking that you've you've stolen their money, and and that's one piece of it.

有很多像你这样的人被这样利用过。有些军人的照片被滥用多年——他们身着军装、背后有国旗的形象天生令人信任。你之所以值得信赖，是因为你正在这个领域从事这项工作。社交媒体现在必须正视这已非小事的事实。

There are a lot of people just like you who've been used in this way. There are people that are are military men whose photograph has been used for years. They're an attractive military man with a flag behind them, and people find them inherently trustworthy. You're inherently trustworthy because you're in this space doing this work. So what social media could, should, must do is honor the fact that this is not a small thing anymore.

这不再是尼日利亚王子的把戏。这不是一群非洲人在酒店房间里操作的事。这是一场由训练有素、手段老练的组织发动的经济战争，而我们尚未有效反击。我们真正在请求Meta这类平台的是：愿意投入资金解决这个全球性问题。我们要求他们承认这比营收更重要。

This is not the Nigerian prince. This is not a group of Africans in a hotel room doing this work. This is the work of a highly trained, sophisticated operation that is waging an economic war on us that we're not fighting back on. So when we think about what we're really asking is we're really asking platforms like Meta to say, we will put some money into fixing a global problem. What we're asking them to do is acknowledge that this is bigger than revenue.

这是不同的。这关乎人命。有人正因此遭受毁灭性打击，这是史上从未有过的经济掠夺。他们为何无动于衷？因为归根结底这还是商业决策。

That this is different. This is people. This is humans that are being devastated by this, and that we've never seen an assault, an economic assault like this in history. And so why aren't they doing anything? Because it's still a business decision.

我们需要做什么？必须持续发声并拉响警报。事实上，像你这样的许多人都处于孤立状态——你并不认识其他被盗用照片的人。如果能联合所有受害者形成集体力量，或许能推动Meta改进。但在被监管强制之前，恐怕难有改变。

And what do we need to do? We need we need to keep talking about this and keep raising the alarm. And the fact is, it's a lot of people like you who are a little bit isolated in terms of, like, you aren't talking to all the other faces that are being used in this way. If you were with all those faces, you at an event or wherever and you were able to harness the collective power, that might do a lot to motivating Meta to do better. But until they're regulated and forced to do so, I don't know that we see a change.

那么人们该如何保护自己和家人？有哪些预警信号？如果在社交平台或交友网站收到私信，有什么诀窍能识别诈骗吗？

So what can people do to protect themselves and their loved ones? Are there signs to watch out for? If you are on one of these platforms or maybe a dating site and someone messages you, is there, like, a trick to figuring out if you're being scammed?

我们需要彻底重构对数字世界的认知方式。我们总是轻信他人，愿意相信对方的身份和言行都是真实的。不幸的是，现状已让我们无法继续这种信任模式。更不用说我们甚至还没讨论AI换脸和伪造文件这些手段。

So I think that we need to reframe our entire approach to the digital world. We are trusting people. We want to believe that people are who they say they are, and they're doing what they say they're doing. And, unfortunately, this has put us in a position where we can't do that anymore. And, I mean, we didn't even go into AI deepfakes, document creation.

本质上，我们必须建立'所见皆不可信'的认知框架。这应该成为感恩节餐桌上的话题，成为接送孩子踢球时三十分钟车程里的对话：'今天有陌生人在网上联系你吗？'

Essentially, what we know is we cannot trust anything we see anymore. And so and so that has to be our framework. That has to be what we talk about at Thanksgiving. That has to be what we talk about as we've got our kids in the back seat for thirty minutes on the way to soccer is, hey. Anybody reach out to you online today?

告诉我你在Roblox上和谁聊天。告诉我，告诉我，你知道的，对我们的父母、兄弟姐妹、表亲都一样。这种情况发生在每个人身上，我们真的需要建立一种新的思维方式，因为他们确实在针对我们。他们确实如此。他们每天都在那边工作，全年无休，试图想办法接近你，娜塔莉，试图找出用什么花招能让你上钩。

Tell me who you're talking to on Roblox. Tell me tell me, you know, and and same with our parents, same with our siblings, same with our cousins. This is happening to everybody, and we really need to create this create a new way of thinking in that they are coming for us because they are. They are. Every day, they are sitting over there working 247365, trying to figure out how to get to you, Natalie, and how to what what trick they can use on you that will get you to respond.

所以我们需要基于这个前提行动。我们必须改变我们的思维框架。其次，我们需要警惕任何未经请求的短信或电子通讯。我经常提到杀猪盘，但这对所有骗局都适用。如果你以为是银行发来的，一定要独立核实。

So we need to be operating from that. So so we gotta change our framework. Then secondly, we need to be wary of any incoming text that or electronic communication that we did not ask for. And so I talk a lot about pig butchering, but the same applies for all of them. If you think it's your bank, independently verify.

直接上网登录你确认的银行官网。这些都是我们熟知的良好数字卫生习惯。但关键是要理解这种骗局的严重性——他们会卷走你所有的钱。我们必须极度警惕，因为这段关系会显得非常美好。这正是杀猪盘的精髓——让你心甘情愿走进屠宰场。

Go go online to your bank, to the site that you know is your bank. All of that. These are the basic tricks that that we all understand is good digital hygiene. But it's really, understanding the severity, the gravity, the level of this particular scam, which is we're going to take all of your money, and so we just need to be super wary because the relationship is gonna feel really nice. It's going to that's the whole idea of pig butchering is we're gonna lead you willingly into this slaughter.

我们会让这个过程非常愉快。

We're gonna we're gonna make it very pleasant.

没错。按照你说的，我们太多数据已经在线泄露，人们能找到电话号码和邮箱，可能联系到你。我想请你多谈谈人工智能如何让这一切显得更真实——比如当你说'我要验证身份，发给我某某资料'时，

Yeah. Well, and to your point, I mean, so much of our data has been leaked online so people can find phone numbers and email addresses, and you you could be reached out to. And then I would love for you to touch a little bit more on how artificial intelligence, it can actually make this all probably feel more real because you could be like, hey, I'm gonna try to verify. Send me x, y, and z. Prove your identity.

他们完全可以用AI伪造出各种视觉资料对吧？

And they could just like make it up basically with with fake visuals. Right?

百分之百。他们能做到。可以给你发护照照片、高中时期的照片，你要什么他们就能伪造什么。

100%. That's what they can do. They can make they'll send you a passport picture. They'll send you a picture of them in high school. They'll send you whatever it is that you want.

他们可以为你创造。但我认为最糟糕的是，我们过去可以说，如果他们不愿意和你视频通话，那他们就不是真实的。然而有个男人联系我说，我知道我的骗子是谁。我当时想，哦，这太好了，告诉我你的骗子是谁。

They can create for you. But I think where it gets really bad is we used to be able to say, well, if they won't have a video call with you, then they're not real. Well, I had a man reach out to me who said, I know who my scammer is. And I'm like, oh, that's so great. Tell me who your scammer is.

是2016年的马来西亚小姐。我当时说...而他坚持说：不，不，艾琳，我是认真的。我和她聊过。

Well, it's miss Malaysia twenty sixteen. And I was like, And he goes, no. No. Seriously, it is, Erin. I've talked to her.

我和她聊过，她还有那颗相同的痣。我就想和你聊聊深度伪造。问题在于我们总是信任善良的人，我们的大脑会自行填补信息并选择相信。事实上他们能创造任何东西，真的可以创造任何东西。不幸的是，这让我们陷入了一个可怕的境地——我们无法再成为我们想要成为的那种值得信赖的人。

I've talked to her, and she has that same mole. And I was like, let me talk to you about deepfakes. And I think that's the thing is we are trusting kind people who wanna believe our mind wants to fill in and believe it. And so the fact is they can create anything. They can literally create anything, and unfortunately, that puts us in a terrible position where we just we we can't be the trustworthy people we want.

无法再像从前那样信任他人。

Trust trusting people that we once were.

说到这个，我见过一些深度伪造视频，它们看起来和真人一模一样。他们用名人做过实验。我们的信息其实已经暴露在外，特别是艺人、政客和公众人物，有足够的数据、参考点和他们说话动作的样本，能编译出非常逼真的效果。他们基本上可以冒充你，这确实很可怕，也构成侵权。

Well, to your point, I've seen some of these deep fake videos where they they look exactly like the person. I mean, they've tried it with celebrities and all of that. And and, you know, our information's out there in the sense that especially with people like entertainers and politicians and public figures, there's enough data and reference points and examples of them speaking and talking and moving that it compiles into something very, very, realistic. Right? They can basically pretend to be you, which is which is also really, again, scary and violating.

那么我们即将结束访谈，你还有什么临别赠言或最终想法？人们该如何协助你追踪这些犯罪行为的使命？非常感谢你给我这个机会谈谈

So, as we start to wrap up, I mean, just any parting words and final thoughts, and how can people help your mission to actually track these down? Yeah. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to talk a

关于'三叶草行动'。我辞去了地方检察官办公室的职位，因为我看到了这个问题的严重性。于是我发起了'三叶草行动'，使命是持续教育大众，动员群众，告诉他们在这种情况下能做什么，并打击跨国组织犯罪。可能你现在听着会觉得，哦，这都是海外发生的事，我无能为力。

little bit about operation Shamrock. I left I retired from my position at the DA's office because I saw the magnitude of this problem. And so I started Operation Shamrock with the mission of educate educate everyone all the time about this, mobilize, show people what they can do in this situation, and disrupt transnational organized crime. So you may be thinking as you're on this call, oh, that that is that is something that is happening overseas. There's nothing I can do about this.

好吧，让我给你一些具体的步骤。第一，你可以谈论这件事。我随时随地都在谈论这个，但你不必这样做。我和我的Uber司机聊过，从Uber司机那里学到了很多。

Well, let me give you some concrete steps. Number one, you can talk about this. I talk about this everywhere, all the time, but you don't have to do that. I talked to my Uber driver. I learned so much from Uber drivers.

但是，你可以在读书俱乐部谈论它。当你和闺蜜们在车里时，你可以谈论它。你几乎可以在任何地方谈论它，你只需要让你关心的人了解事情的严重性和现状。这是你今天就能做的一件具体事情。如果你更有动力，可以去operationshamrock.org报名参加培训师培训，我们会教你如何传授这些知识。

I, but but but you can talk about it at your book club. You can talk about it, when you're in the car with your girlfriends. You can talk about it literally anywhere, and you just need to educate your loved people about the gravity and what's happening. That is a concrete thing you can do today. If you're more motivated than that, go to operationshamrock.org and sign up for train the trainer, and we will show you how to teach about this.

我们会给你一套幻灯片，你可以用真实的幻灯片教育你的读书俱乐部。你可以去扶轮社，可以去图书馆。这些都是简单易行的事情。如果这些都不吸引你，也许你可以在社交媒体上稍微讨论一下，或者转发我关于这个话题的言论分享给你的社交圈。

We'll give you a slide deck, and you can educate your book club with real slides. You can go to your rotary. You can go to your library. But those are those are two easy things. And if if that doesn't even appeal to you, maybe you, can talk about it a little bit on your social media, or you can repost the things that I say about it to share with your network.

事实是，这种情况不会停止，直到它变成下一个'尼日利亚王子骗局'。所以我们越早实现这个目标越好。

The the fact is this does not stop until it becomes the next Nigerian prince. So the sooner we can make that happen, the better.

是的。请广泛分享这次采访。出于好奇，你是否真的去过——比如说当这些窝点被捣毁时——亲眼看过这些园区？我的意思是，你是否实地考察过？

Yeah. Please share this interview far and wide with everyone. Just out of curiosity, have you actually gone, let's say, when one of these busts have happened to see these compounds yourself? I mean, have you been on the ground?

我去过实地，我想这就是为什么我对这件事如此热情。我去过像大学校园那么大的园区，去过有35栋建筑的园区，进过人们肩并肩坐着发送那些短信的房间，也进过他们用可怕手段逼迫人们做这种没有人愿意对他人做的精神控制工作的刑讯室。是的，我亲眼见过。

I have been on the ground, and I think that I think that's why I'm so passionate about this is that I have been inside compounds the size of college campuses. I've been on compounds with 35 buildings. I've been inside the very rooms where people sit shoulder to shoulder sending those texts. I've been inside the torture rooms where they where they do horrible things to motivate people to do this mind mind work that no no human wants to do to another human. So seeing it on the ground yeah.

我知道很难想象我所说的场景，所以我演讲时总是会展示照片，因为这确实令人难以置信。但我进去过，也曾在缅甸河对岸看着那些由数百栋建筑组成的庞大城市——它们建造的唯一目的就是窃取我们所有人的钱财。这不是孤立的小问题，而是一场被放任多年、愈演愈烈的森林大火。我们必须提高警惕。

I know that it's hard to visualize what I'm talking about, and that's why often I will I I always show pictures when I when I speak because it's really hard to believe that that is happening, but I've been on the I've been inside, and then I've been on the other side of the river from what's happening in Myanmar with these massive cities of hundreds of buildings that that are were built for the sole purpose of stealing all of our money. This is not an isolated small issue. This is a massive forest fire that's been allowed to fester for years unimpeded. So we've gotta get on our guard.

我知道这是个随机问题，但如果这些行动发生在偏远地区，我猜他们可能使用星链这样的设备联网。埃隆·马斯克能做些什么来追踪并捣毁这些活动吗？

I know this is a random question, but if some of these operations are happening in very remote areas, I would imagine that they're getting Internet from things like Starlink. Is there anything Elon Musk could do to help track these and then potentially bust them?

我很高兴你也这么想，因为这正是我的想法。当我第一次看到KK园区的照片时——那是缅甸首个专门为此目的建造的臭名昭著的园区——照片里河对岸泰国境内有座大型通信塔。我当时就想，泰国是我们的盟友，为什么要为KK园区提供实施犯罪所需的通信支持？

I love that you are thinking that because that's exactly what I've been thinking. And so the first time I saw pictures of KK Park, that's the orious first park constructed for this purpose, it's in Myanmar. And the picture I saw of it, there was a major communications tower on the Thai side of the river. And I thought, the Thais are our allies. Why are they supplying KK Park with the very communications that are needed to do this work?

于是我开始公开谈论这件事。我呼吁了三年，直到2025年2月他们才拆除那座通信塔，但那时KK园区已经全面配备了星链设备。之后我开始关注星链问题，给SpaceX总法律顾问写信要求关闭服务。《连线》杂志对此做了报道。最近新罕布什尔州参议员哈桑也介入了此事。

And so I started talking about it. I talked about it for three years, and in February 2025, they finally took down that tower, but not until KK Park was fully outfitted with Starlink all over it. And so then I started talking about Starlink, and I wrote to the general counsel for SpaceX and asked them to please take this down. And Wired magazine did an article on that. And recently, senator Hassan from New Hampshire took this up as well.

好消息是，星链最终在过去一周左右禁用了2600台接收器。太棒了。我们要持续这样做，并推广到其他存在类似问题的国家。就像区块链技术一样，现代科技的优势在于我们能精确定位——既知道诈骗网站的地理位置，也掌握这些接收器的具体坐标。

The and and the great news is that Starlink ultimately did in the last week or so disable access to 2,600 receivers. Fantastic. Let's do that again and again, and let's go to all the other countries where this is happening. The the beauty of this, just like the blockchain is, because of technology, we know where it's happening. We we know the geolocation of the scam sites, and we know the geolocation of these receivers.

让我们关停那些用于罪恶用途的设备。

Let's turn off the ones that are being used for evil.

哇，这消息太令人振奋了。艾琳，真想和你畅谈几小时。非常感谢你参与节目并教育我的观众，我会在节目说明里分享你所有的工作链接和组织信息。

Wow. That's incredible to hear. Erin, I could talk to you for hours. Thank you so, so much for joining me and educating my audience. I will share, all the links of your work and your, organization in the show notes.

非常感谢大家收听。请广泛传播这个信息，这真的非常重要。往往当人们意识到时可能为时已晚。再次感谢你，艾琳。

Thank you so much for listening to this. Please share this message with everyone. It's really important. You have no idea who it's happening to until it might be too late. So thank you so much, Erin.

希望能很快再见到你。

Hope to see you again soon.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

非常感谢您收听本期的硬币故事。请确保订阅我们的节目，以免错过任何新内容。如果可以的话，请开启通知并给我们留下好评。这些都能帮助节目自然增长新听众。我们还有一份免费的每周通讯。

Thank you so much for checking out this episode of coin stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show so you don't miss any new episodes. And if you can, turn on those notifications and leave us a positive review. They really help the show grow organically with new listeners. We have a free weekly newsletter.

您可以在newsblock.substack.com上注册。本节目仅用于教育和娱乐目的，不应被视为正式投资建议，您应始终自行研究。我随时欢迎反馈和嘉宾建议，请随时通过info@talkingbitcoin.com联系我。我们下次见。

You can sign up at the newsblock.substack.com. This show is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing should constitute as official investment advice, and you should always do your own research. I'm always open to feedback and guest suggestions, so please feel free to reach out at info@talkingbitcoin.com. I'll see you next time.