Gloria Zhao谈比特币网络防御：核心开发者、去中心化节点与新兴技术威胁

我认为比特币最神奇的一点在于，它是少数你能够完全验证的事物之一。

One of the most magical things about Bitcoin, I think, for me is that it is one of the only things that you can truly verify, fully.

大家好！很高兴与大家分享新一期节目。我们将探讨一些技术话题。如果你是比特币新手，我已经在节目说明中准备了一个非常实用的术语表，帮助你理解节点、区块大小、UTXO等节目中会提到的概念。希望对你有所帮助。

Hi, everyone. I'm excited to share this next episode. We're gonna be getting into some technical topics. So if you're new to Bitcoin, I've gone ahead and created a really helpful glossary that you can access in the show notes to explain terms like nodes, block size, UTXOs, some things that come up in the show. I hope you find it useful.

现在有请下一位嘉宾。欢迎回到节目！本周我们邀请到了比特币核心开发者Gloria Zhao——这是节目开播以来首位女性核心开发者。非常感谢你能来参加节目，Gloria。 非常感谢你的邀请。

And now, it's time for my next guest. Welcome back to the show. Joining me this week is Gloria Zhao, a Bitcoin core developer, the first I'm hosting on the show, and I'm so grateful to get to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Gloria. Thank you so much for having me.

我事先做了一些功课，想从你的成长经历开始聊。资料显示你出生在硅谷，但父母来自中国，他们的移民之路颇为艰辛。作为第一代移民的后代，我觉得我们有些共同点。能分享一下你的成长故事吗？

I had the chance to do a little bit of research, and I would love to just start at the very beginning with you because I read that you were born in Silicon Valley, but your parents came here from China. And they had sort of a difficult time coming here. And as a first generation immigrant, I feel like we have some things in common. So can you sort of share your backstory?

好的。我父母成长于文革时期的中国。和许多美国移民一样，他们历经艰辛，非常努力工作。我身边其实有很多二代移民，大家的文化背景——或许不该说文化，而是家庭背景——都类似：父母都有过各种创伤经历，或者经历过那种千军万马过独木桥的激烈竞争。

Yeah. Sure. My parents grew up in kind of Cultural Revolution China. And like a lot of immigrants to The United States, they suffered a lot, they worked really hard. And I actually grew up around a lot of other people who were second generation immigrants, and the culture was very much, not maybe not culture, but a lot of people's backgrounds were, like, their parents had these crazy traumatic stories And and or, you know, they had these super high competition, like, tests.

比如考试少考一分，立刻就有数百万人等着取代你的位置。如果当年没考上，他们就不会来到这里。所以我能清楚看到自己享有的特权与仍在中国生活的表亲们之间的差距。这种对比对二代移民来说确实发人深省，让我们不会把现有特权视为理所当然。

And it's like, oh, if they had scored one point lower, then there were, like, millions of people ready to take their place. And if they hadn't scored that one point, then they wouldn't be here. And so kind of being able to see the contrast between how I was raised with a tremendous amount of privilege compared to the people, like my cousins, for example, who who still live in China, or ended up somewhere else. Yeah. Being able to see that contrast, I think, is really eye opening for for second generation immigrants, and it makes us not take for granted the privileges that we have.

在伯克利读计算机时，我就深刻意识到：如果我们要成为构建未来的软件工程师，首先必须明确要构建怎样的未来。二代移民会把这种压力转化为不同动力——大家都想好好利用父母牺牲一切换来的平台，对此充满感恩。这似乎再自然不过：毕竟我们本就一无所有。

And so when I was studying computer science at Berkeley, you know, I was very aware of this, and I was like, okay. I can't I would say it to my friends, like, oh, if we're all studying to, like, be software engineers to build the future, like, it doesn't matter unless we have an idea of what kind of future we wanna build. And and I think people take the kind of second generation immigrant pressures, and they translate it in different ways because they definitely want to use kind of the platform that their parents sacrificed so much to to give to them, and they're so grateful for it. And it seems only natural and expected that, like, hey. I mean, I have nothing.

我没有任何借口不去实现人生价值或做有意义的事。对我来说，这个目标就是毕业后参与比特币核心开发。这让我父母有些难以理解，因为你知道，我本可以拿到谷歌、脸书这类公司的offer。是的，这对他们来说很令人兴奋，他们认为这才是一个名校毕业生该走的路——追求众人向往的东西。而放弃这些去申请资助、在没有老板的情况下做开源项目，确实显得非常另类。

I have no excuses for not achieving or or doing something meaningful with my life. And for me, the the format of that was to work on Bitcoin Core after I graduated, which was something that my parents kind of struggled to understand because it's not it's you know, I I had these, like, Google, Facebook offers and whatnot. Yeah. And that was really exciting for them, and that was what you were supposed to do, right, as as a college student who, you know, went to this school, and that was what people strove for. And to throw that away to, like, get a grant to work on this open source project with no boss and no you know, it's it's very strange.

但对我而言，如果最终只是在一家窃取用户数据推送广告的公司工作，那简直是在浪费自己的特权。

But to me, it was like this you know, I'm wasting my privilege if I just end up working at, you know, a company that scrapes your data and serves you ads. Yeah.

你刚才提到与你共事的开发者们具有一种利他主义精神。我对此深有共鸣，因为促使我前进的动力正是目睹父母初到美国时的艰辛——我想证明他们的牺牲是值得的。听起来你也有类似经历。我父母曾希望我成为医生或律师，结果我却投身媒体新闻行业。尽管他们非常支持，但我想这多少让他们有些心碎。

Well and and you talked about how, the developers that you do work with, there's a core sense of altruism. And I relate to so much that you just said because a motivating force for me seeing my parents struggle as much as they did when we first moved to The US, that was my my motivator is to justify their sacrifice because I saw them work so hard, and I wanted to help them. And it sounds like you, are similar in that way, but you I mean, I agree. Like, my parents wanted me to become a doctor or a lawyer, and then I'm like, oh, I'm bringing to media and journalism. And I think even though they were super supportive, I think it broke their heart a little bit.

他们最担心的是我能否获得他们不曾拥有的经济稳定和自主权。你在某次采访中提到对比特币解决的问题充满热情，能否详细说说这种热情与你内心深处的个人经历有何关联？

They were worried for me because the biggest thing they wanted for me was economic stability and empowerment, which they didn't have. And you, I think, in an interview said that you are really passionate about the problem that Bitcoin solves. So can you talk a little bit more about how how this passion sort of relates back to what seems like it's very, very core and deep inside of you from your own story.

比特币对不同的人意义不同。我们许多人之所以来到这里，正是被比特币的某种特质所吸引。我本科读计算机科学时加入了伯克利的区块链社团。要知道，那时候'区块链'这个词还不像现在这么流行。

Yeah. I think Bitcoin means something different to a lot of people. I think a lot of us are really passionate about what it is about Bitcoin that brought us here. For me, you know, was studying computer science, and I joined blockchain at Berkeley. Blockchain, you know, the b word, is not super popular.

当时这更多是纯学术领域——分布式系统和密码学这些高深的计算机科学课题。像我这样的技术宅最享受的，就是把它们应用到代码中解决酷炫的问题。但随着深入研究，我越来越被比特币能解决的问题所吸引。我们在伯克利区块链社团做过些咨询项目，为企业搭建概念验证系统。

But, at the time, a lot of it was kind of purely academic. Like, distributed systems and cryptography are really interesting, you know, advanced, you know, computer science topics, that and being able to apply that in in code is something that a lot of nerds like me really enjoy is being able to look at cool problems. Right? But I think the more that I looked at it at blockchain, I think the more I ended up gravitating towards Bitcoin because of the problems that it solves. We had a bit of a, like, a consulting thing at at at Blockchain at Berkeley where we would do these contracts with companies that wanted us to build POCs.

这些公司的创新实验室想要理解区块链技术——这种新兴技术需要向高管证明其价值。但99%的情况下我都想说：你们根本不需要区块链，不过我们还是会帮你们搭建。渐渐地，我对这类工作感到厌倦了。

Part of their, like, research innovation lab wanted to, like, grok blockchain because it's like a a nascent up and coming technology that they need to they need to prove to the executives that they've, you know, played with. And 99% of the time, I was like, yeah. You don't you don't need a blockchain, but we'll build one for you. You know? And and so I I really got tired of of that and Yeah.

首先，我对隐私保护技术产生了浓厚兴趣。我觉得大学时期的我非常理想主义，这是应该的，因为那时候你有资本去理想化。能够进行抗审查的支付、不被持续财务监控，以及真正看清货币运作的机制——比特币似乎是首个真正体现开源精神的重要事物。你没法质问银行为何拒绝你的账户申请，对吧？

Became really interested, first of all, in in in privacy preserving technologies, which I I think ideal I was very idealistic in college, as you should be, I think, because you can afford to be. And and so the idea of being able to have censorship resistant payments and not be financially surveilled all the time and being able to see actually how money works. Like, I I felt like Bitcoin was one of the first kind of potentially big things where it really, really meant something for it to be open source. Right? Like, you can't ask the bank why they rejected your bank account.

你不能追问货币政策如何运作，一年后它会变成什么样。我认为很多人都有了解事物本质的渴望。政府的一切都应该是开源的，难道不是吗？

You can't ask, you know, what is how does monetary policy work? What is what is it gonna be in a year? Like, I think the the desire to understand how things work, which I think a lot of people have. I mean, like, everything in government should be open source. Right?

这些信息本应公开透明。钱流向哪里？决策如何形成？资金从何而来？

It should be, like, known to us. You know? What is this where is this money going? How is this decision being made? How is it being funded?

资金去向何方？谁在使用？谁拥有决定权？诸如此类。这本应是常态，但出于某些原因却并非如此。

And where does it go? And who's gonna use it? Who has authority? Etcetera. And, like, that should that should be the case, but it isn't for some reason.

比特币最神奇之处在于，它是少数你能完全验证的事物之一。作为开发者——其实任何人都能查看GitHub——但具备技术背景去深入钻研，这种能力让人倍感赋能。所以，是什么让我投身比特币？正是这种可验证性。

And one of the most magical things about Bitcoin, I think, for me is that it is one of the only things that you can truly verify, fully. And being able to do that as a developer, as someone I mean, anybody can go on GitHub, of course, but having the technical background to, like, you know, to really dig dig into it feels really empowering. And and so, yeah, so the question was, what brought me to Bitcoin? Yeah. The verifiability.

大学期间我结识了亚历克斯·格拉德斯坦。我们共同参与了一个社会影响论坛，他说：‘别再说为无银行账户者服务了，我们要让有银行账户的人摆脱银行体系。’这句话让我终身难忘。

And, I met Alex Gladstein at some point, while I was in college. We did this, like, social impact panel thing. And he was like, screw, banking the unbanked. Let's unbank the banked. And that just stuck with me forever.

现在很多人可能都听过他近五年传播的理念。但当年听到活动人士用比特币筹款、被冻结银行账户的维权者借助抗审查货币突破封锁——这些案例对我犹如醍醐灌顶，影响深远。

And, you know, it's being able to I mean, so I I think at this point, a lot of people have heard his message, in the last, you know, five five years or so. But it was huge, hugely orange peeling for me to hear about, like, activists raising money using Bitcoin, activists whose bank accounts are being frozen, being able to use subvert that using censorship resistant money. That was that was huge for

我。Coin Stories节目由Bitdear为您呈现，该公司是比特币挖矿和人工智能颠覆性技术领域的全球领导者。作为一家上市公司，BitDeer拥有900兆瓦的运营数据中心容量，另有1.1吉瓦的设施正在三大洲建设中，这使其成为全球最多元化且算力密度最高的计算公司之一。BitDeer的领导团队为比特币挖矿ASIC芯片的原始创新奠定了基础。这确实是业内唯一具备成功记录和实力、能通过下一代挖矿ASIC突破性设计再次颠覆市场的企业。

me. Coin Stories is proudly brought to you by Bitdear, a global leader in disruptive technology for Bitcoin mining and AI. As a publicly traded leader, BitDeer boasts a massive 900 megawatts of operational data center capacity and an additional 1.1 gigawatts under development across three continents, positioning BitDeer as one of the most diversified and power dense computing companies in the world. BitDeer's leadership laid the groundwork for the original advancements in Bitcoin mining ASICs. It's really the only company in the industry with the track record and cloud to disrupt the market again with groundbreaking new designs for the next generation of mining ASICs.

如今BitDeer正通过近期与英伟达宣布的合作，将其在数据中心和云计算管理领域多年的专业经验延伸至高性能计算领域。加入BitDeer共同重塑比特币挖矿世界。访问bitdeer.com了解更多，探索他们如何引领未来。是的。不。

Now BitDeer is leveraging years of expertise in data center and cloud management into high performance computing through a recently announced partnership with NVIDIA. Join BitDeer in reshaping the world of Bitcoin mining. Learn more at bitdeer.com and explore how they are pioneering the future today. Yeah. No.

我特别喜欢这点。他的著作《检查你的财务特权》让我深刻理解了人权层面的意义——世界上有如此多的人每天在不同地区面临审查，尤其是金融交易审查，我们确实需要聚焦并揭示这些问题。现在让我们聊聊你的工作。我的听众中有很多初学者和非技术人员，我自己也不太懂技术。所以有段时间比特币让我望而生畏。

I love that. His book, Check Your Financial Privilege, was really, really influential for me to understand the human rights component and the fact that there are so many people who face censorship, financial transactional censorship on a daily basis in different parts of the world, and we really need to focus and highlight, some of those issues. So let's get into a little bit of what you do. My audience has a lot of beginners, and people who are not technical, and I'm not really technical. So for a while, Bitcoin was extremely intimidating to me.

如果我问些非常基础的问题请见谅，但我觉得这有助于让大家站在同一起跑线上。我们先达成基本共识：什么是比特币核心开发者？你日常具体做哪些工作？

So forgive me if I ask some very, very basic questions, but I think that it'll help just kind of level the playing field for everyone. We'll get on the same page. So what is a Bitcoin Core developer? What do you do on a day to day basis?

好的。如果我有解释不足的地方请随时打断我。我是一名软件开发者，主要从事比特币核心开发工作。

Yeah. And please feel free to interrupt me if I'm under explaining something. Yeah. So I'm a software developer. I work on Bitcoin Core.

比特币核心有几个层面的含义：首先它是参考实现，这个软件源自中本聪发布白皮书时同步推出的原始版本，是最简可行产品。你可以运行它来加入比特币网络，下载区块，连接其他节点，发送交易并与主链同步。这基本就是它的主要功能。

And Bitcoin Core is it's it's a couple things. One, it's the reference implementation. It is software descended from what Satoshi originally published alongside the white paper. The MVP software that you can run to join the Bitcoin network, download blocks, connect to other peers, send out transactions, and sync with the main chain. And so that's mainly what it is.

但从实际应用角度看，它也是所有人直接或间接与比特币网络交互的终极方式。比如你可能运行着从bitcoincore.org下载的比特币核心节点来自主管理资产，或者使用某种连接交易所的移动钱包——而交易所后台服务器运行的正是比特币核心或其衍生系统。最终我认为全网98%到99%的节点运行的都是标准比特币核心版本。

But also in a practical sense, it is how ultimately pretty much everybody interacts with the Bitcoin network either directly or indirectly. So you might be running a Bitcoin Core node that you maybe downloaded from bitcoincore.org, and you use that to be your own bank. Mhmm. Or you could be, using some kind of mobile wallet that maybe talks to an exchange, and the exchange is running servers that are running Bitcoin Core, or something that talks to Bitcoin Core. Ultimately, I think '98 to 99 of the nodes on the network are running exactly Bitcoin Core.

它还有各种分叉之类的。没错，这是一个完全去中心化的项目，开源代码。GitHub仓库是Bitcoin/Bitcoin。任何人都可以自由贡献。

There's also forks of it and whatnot. So, yeah, it's a fully decentralized project. It's open source. The GitHub is Bitcoin slash Bitcoin. So anybody is free to contribute.

再次强调，它是公开的，不存在什么比特币基金会或比特币核心公司来决定谁被雇佣、预算分配或薪酬标准。这确实很棘手，非常困难，尤其在熊市会让事情变得有点难办。

It's, again, public, and there is no, like, Bitcoin foundation or Bitcoin Core Inc. That is the company that decides who's hired to work on it or or what the budget is and who gets paid what. And that is really tricky. It's really difficult. It it makes things a bit hard, especially in bear markets.

是的。但这就是比特币运作中美好、混乱又关键的部分——开发是去中心化的。希望这解答了你的问题。

Yeah. But it is a beautiful, messy, and crucial part of how Bitcoin works, is that the development is decentralized. Hopefully, that answered your question.

对。而且你不可能为比特币工作，因为它不是...有些人问我‘你在为比特币工作吗？’我就回答‘不，不是的’。

Yes. And and you don't work for Bitcoin because it's not a some people ask me. They go, do you you work for Bitcoin? I'm like, no. No.

不不不。我从事比特币教育工作，但比特币本身是一个协议，是开源代码。

No. No. No. I I educate on Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is a protocol. It's open source code.

那为什么它需要维护？能谈谈这个群体吗？据我了解，你是五位密钥持有者之一？

So why does it need to be maintained? And can you talk about sort of the group? Because I understand that you are one of, what, five key holders?

当然。所有软件都需要维护，都有依赖项。运行比特币核心当然需要装有操作系统的电脑。如果把软件想象成巨大的积木塔，比特币核心本身虽然只有几十万行代码，但它依赖的代码可能有数百万甚至数十亿行。

Sure. So all software requires maintenance. All software has dependencies. Of course, you need a computer with an operating system in order to run Bitcoin Core. And I I guess if you were to think of software as kind of this huge tower of building blocks, typically, you know, Bitcoin Core itself is only a 100,000 a few 100,000 lines of code, but it has, like, you know, millions, billion, whatever lines.

虽然代码行数不能作为衡量标准，但确实存在大量依赖项。要让这个系统运行起来，需要许多神奇的事情发生。从系统架构的角度来看，让各个组件协同工作本身就是每款软件都需要承担的维护职责。没有什么是孤立存在的。从十五年前中本聪首次发布概念验证代码至今，它的演变已经大到几乎面目全非的程度。

Not that lines of code is a metric, but there's a lot of dependencies. There's a lot of things that need to magically happen in order for this thing to run. And so just from, like, a, like, plumbing perspective to, you know, get things to fit together, that is a part of maintenance that every piece of software needs to do. Nothing is in a vacuum. But also in the course of fifteen or so years ago when Satoshi first published the the kind of proof of proof of concept code to today, it's evolved so much to be almost unrecognizable.

没错。所以从安全角度出发，我首先要强调：比特币核心是款极其注重安全性的软件，几乎找不到能与之比肩的产品。对吧？

Yes. Yes. And so just from a security perspective, I'll just put this out there first. Like, Bitcoin Core is a very, very security oriented piece of software compared to almost anything else. Right?

如果它运行不正常，你可能会损失所有资金。我不想吓唬任何人，但这确实是款对安全性要求极高的软件，而且它运行在匿名点对点网络上。相比你电脑上的其他应用，它面临的威胁模型要严峻得多。随着价格上涨和用户增多，这个安全门槛还在不断抬高，而要实现这些就必须修改代码。是的。

Like, if it doesn't work properly, you might lose all your money. Or I mean, I don't want to, like, you know, scare anybody, but that you know, it is a very security piece of software, and it's gonna be on this, like, anonymous peer to peer network. And so the threat model is very severe compared to a lot of other applications that you might run on your computer. And so that bar of security, which has gotten higher and higher as the prices increase, as there's been more users, that's also something where you need you actually need to change the code in order to do. Yeah.

这不仅仅是...也许这个比喻有点严肃，但我常把它比作我们熟知的民主制度。不是说你制定完宪法就万事大吉了，民主制度就固若金汤了。看看委内瑞拉选举舞弊事件就知道，民主制度在世界各地都面临挑战。对吧？

It's not just, you know, you wrote it's actually, maybe this is a little too serious, but, the the analogy that I use is, like, you know, democracy as as we know it. It's not just like you wrote the constitution once, and then, like, you're done. Democracy is fixed. Like, we know how to you know, it's like, we see democracy, undermined all over the world if you're following the stolen election in Venezuela. Right?

存在大量可以称之为'实现细节'的东西，它们可能破坏最初的设计目标——即便你在关键设计上明确写着'这是个去中心化网络'。但事情没那么简单，不是说设定好去中心化就能自动实现的。对吧？嗯...我不确定是否解释清楚了。

There's there's a lot of, I guess, you can call these implementation details, that that can undermine the design goal that you had even if you outlined it in a very, like, kind of in very key ways where you're like, it's a decentralized network. But there's, like, all kinds of things that know, it's not just like, it's gonna be decentralized, and then it just is. Right? Yeah. I I don't know if I'm explaining this properly.

完全同意。人类行为会导致不同解读，对吧？比特币社区内部就有过争论。了解区块大小战争的人都知道，这绝不会是我们面临的最后一场争论。

Absolutely. I mean, there's human action, and there is different interpretations. Right? And there there have been debates within Bitcoin. If anyone is familiar with block size wars, I don't think that that's the only war we're gonna have.

对吧？关于是否应该资助比特币核心开发的争论从未停止，这个问题我稍后还想请教你。但归根结底，这个网络是由人组成的——运行节点的正是我们。

Right? There's constantly debates about whether we should be financing Bitcoin core development, which I wanna ask you about later. But there's a lot of I mean, this is ultimately people. We are the network. We are running the nodes.

对吧？所以我完全明白你的意思。

Right? So I completely understand what you're saying.

没错。而且人们运行节点非常重要。如果我们所有的节点都由大企业运行，或者全部通过微软Azure上的某个基础设施提供商托管，我们就失去了比特币的特性——抗审查性、非国家控制性。你懂的，比如CrowdStrike推送个更新，所有节点就都下线了。对吧？正是这样。

Yeah. And it's so important that people run nodes. Like, we don't have the properties of Bitcoin, the censorship resistance, the not being state controlled if all of the nodes are just run by huge enterprises or all of them are through this infrastructure provider on Microsoft Azure and, you know, like, CrowdStrike pushes an update and all of the nodes go offline. Right? Exactly.

还还还有一点，比特币核心不会自动推送更新。你在笔记本电脑或树莓派上运行的节点软件，不会神奇地接受包含新共识规则或安全补丁的更新（可惜啊）。这有利有弊，所以需要用户自行判断并承担责任，确保自己始终使用维护中的软件版本。

And and and there's another thing is Bitcoin Core doesn't push auto updates. The the node that you run, the software that you chose to start on your laptop or on your Raspberry Pi or whatever it is, that's not going to magically accept updates with new consensus rules or security fixes, unfortunately. It goes both ways. And so it's gonna be at the discretion of the user and the responsibility of the user to continue making sure that they're they're using a maintained version of the software.

我只是想鼓励大家。重申一下我不是技术专家，但多亏了Sam Callahan、BTC Sessions和比特币社区的方法，我成功运行了自己的节点。我用树莓派搭建的，当节点跑起来时真的超有成就感——尤其当我原以为做不到却最终成功时，那种感觉太棒了。下载完整账本花了好久，但这不重要。

I just want to encourage people. Again, I'm not technical, but thanks to Sam Callahan and BTC Sessions and the Bitcoin way, I have been able to run my own node. I have a Raspberry Pi. It made me actually feel really, like, I felt like I accomplished something when I ran it, and I it felt so good when I thought it I couldn't do something, and I learned, oh, actually, it's not that intimidating. Took forever to download the whole entire ledger, but, but that's besides the point.

但这个过程真的让人充满力量又兴奋，世界上应该运行更多节点。能聊聊这个吗？我常听人说全球大概有一万个节点（具体数字众说纷纭，但大概是五位数），这足够吗？网络安全性如何？

But it felt really empowering and exciting, and there should be more nodes. Can you talk a little bit about, because sometimes I hear people say, oh, well, there are, I don't know, maybe 10,000 nodes around the world. I've heard different numbers, but somewhere in that range, like five figures. Is that enough? How secure is the network?

我我认为关键指标不一定是节点数量。就像我说的，可能有上千个节点都托管在AWS同一个基础设施提供商旗下——比如AWS东亚1区、AWS东南亚2区之类的。这些本质上都是AWS节点，对吧？

I I think that the metric is not necessarily the number of nodes. Like I said, you could have, like, a a thousand nodes all controlled by one infrastructure provider on AWS one dash East, AWS, you know, Southeast Asia dash two. You know? Like and they're all AWS nodes. Right?

这本质上还是中心化的。所以我觉得...

That's not true to centralization either. So I guess

AWS？抱歉。

AWS? Sorry.

抱歉，是亚马逊云服务。对，就是这样。好的。嗯。

Sorry. The Amazon cloud provider. Yeah. So, like Okay. Yeah.

还有些区块链我们会拿来开玩笑，因为它们有个中心化的基础设施提供商负责运行所有节点。他们还宣称自己有几千个节点呢。但实际上只要基础设施提供商出个bug，整个网络就会宕机几个小时。

There there are other, like, blockchains that we'll make fun of because they have, like, a central infrastructure provider that runs all their nodes for them. And they're like, we have, you know, whatever thousand nodes. Yeah. No. But the infra provider will have, like, a bug, and then they'll have downtime for for a few hours.

这根本谈不上什么去中心化。不过据我了解，预估节点数确实在五位数左右。并非所有节点都能公开访问。

And that's just not that's not decentralized at all. But, yeah, I think 5 figures is is the estimate that I understand as well. Not all nodes are publicly reachable.

对，我也觉得这个数字靠谱。你能聊聊节点间的通信机制和区块验证过程吗？因为我觉得有个地方特别容易让人困惑，连我给新手解释时都觉得棘手——就是整个流程如何运作，包括挖矿机制和区块添加过程。

Yeah. So yeah. But I think that's accurate. Can you talk a little bit about the communication between the nodes and the the blocks that are actually validated? Because one thing that I think is confusing, especially even for me to explain to newbies, is how that process works, how mining works, how the blocks are added.

因为你看，所有信息都需要广播。一旦发现新区块，大家就会基于它继续工作。但有时会出现孤块，这对刚接触这个领域的人来说确实很难理解。你一般怎么向别人解释？

Because there is you know, everything has to be broadcast. And once a block is found, then people start working off of that block, But sometimes one gets orphaned. And I think that that can get very confusing for people who are just coming into this space. How do you explain it to people?

是啊。我觉得我们可能需要回归到最初想解决的计算机科学问题——我们构建的是一个去中心化网络。就像看足球赛时没有裁判，全靠看台上的观众各自记分，最后要达成比分共识。我们就是用以点对点方式连接的计算机来实现这个目标。

Yeah. I so I think it almost we need to, like, go back to the kind of computer science y problem that we were trying to solve, which which is we have this, like, decentralized network. It it's like if you were watching a football game and there were no referees. It's just everybody in the stands keep score, and then we have to come to some kind of idea of what the score is. And and we're gonna do that with our computers that connect to each other in a peer to peer way.

从这个角度来看，你可以想象看台一侧的观众试图传播他们认定的比分时，另一侧的观众可能需要一段时间才能接收到。如果双方同时得出不同比分并各自向周围人传播，这条传播链上的人都会认同告诉他们的人。如果双方同时开始传播，可能会形成五五开或其他比例的分歧。希望这个比喻还算恰当。嗯。

And and so from that sense, you can imagine that people sitting on one side of the stand as they're trying to, like, broadcast what they think the score is, people on the other side of the stands might you know, it takes a while to get to them. And so if they come up with a different score at the same time, it might and they tell everybody around them, and everyone along that route agrees with the person that told them what the score is. If they start at the same time, you you might get fifty fifty split or or whatever it is, split. Hopefully, I don't know if that's a good analogy. Yep.

但这本质上就是如此。

But that is kind of the nature.

所以他们是在获取信息，逐渐达成共识。但这几乎像一场竞赛，对吧？哪一方先获得更多共识就胜出。

So they're getting an information. They're coming to a consensus. But it's sort it's almost like a race, right, whichever one has more consensus first.

对，没错。遗憾的是这个问题很难解决，尤其是当你面对的是一个去中心化的群体时。是的。

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And this is a problem that, unfortunately, it's it's kinda hard to solve where you have, like, a lot of you have a decentralized, like, group of people. Yeah.

他们可能就会展开竞赛，对吧？这些可能是投票区块。但从计算机科学角度，基于我们做出的权衡取舍，我不知道是否存在完美方案——不过这就是区块存在的意义，对吧？

They they might just have a race. Right? And they could be ballot blocks. And this is but I don't know of of any from a computer science perspective, if there is, based on the trade offs that we've decided to make, I don't know if there there's no perfect way, but that's what blocks are for. Right?

举例来说，如果所有人都在不断广播交易（这正是网络中的常态），很多人会讨论未确认支付的问题——他们会说'我的支付还没被打包进区块，但我已经发送了，商家能先给我咖啡吗？'答案显然是不能，必须等待确认。

So if if at all times everybody was broadcasting transactions, for example, which which is what happens on the network, a lot of people well, they'll talk about this in terms of unconfirmed payments where they're like, oh, my my payment is has not been in a block yet, but I've sent it. Can the merchant give me my coffee or whatever it is? Yeah. And it's like, no. They have to wait for a confirmation.

他们会追问'为什么不能设计出一种在区块确认前确保支付完成的方法？'但这就是区块存在的意义——它是我们达成共识的机制，只是这个机制并非完美无缺，也无法在我们期望的支付时间尺度内瞬间达成完美共识。

And they're like, oh, but, like, why can't we come up with a way of, like, making sure payments go through before the block? I'm like, but that's what blocks are for. It's like they are the mechanism through which we have decided consensus happens, but it's still not perfect. Or it's not, like, instantaneously perfect in the timescale that we're imagining Right. Kind of these kinds of payments.

但最终，只要大家能互相听到，你们总会收敛到同一条链上，希望如此。

But, ultimately, you're always gonna converge to the same chain, hopefully, as long as everybody can hear everybody.

好的。我很高兴你提到这点，因为我认为这也是初学比特币时容易让人困惑的地方——随着网络扩张，需求不断增长，但区块空间有限。所以稀缺性不仅体现在比特币总量上，也体现在每个区块的实际容量上。

Okay. Well, I'm glad you actually brought that up because that is also, I think, something that when you're starting to understand Bitcoin, it gets a little bit confusing because the network is growing. There's more and more demand. There's only a certain amount of block space. So there's scarcity not just in the amount of Bitcoin there is, but also in literally what can fit into a block.

因此存在内存池这个概念。但要注意，我查看的内存池可能和隔壁邻居的不同，你在伦敦看到的内存池也会不一样。如何简单解释这个现象？因为我常听人说'有30万笔交易等待验证'，但区块生成需要十分钟。

And so there's a mempool. Right? And not if I have a mempool that I'm looking at, it's not the same as, you know, the person that's in the house next door, and and you're in London, and you have a different mempool that you're gonna see. How do you break that down simply? Because I've sometimes heard, oh, there's 300,000 transactions waiting to be validated, but it's ten minute blocks.

那该怎么向人们解释呢？有时会被问到：'如果排队的有30万笔交易，我的交易要怎么确认？会不会要好几天才能结算？'这种情况该怎么说明？

So how do you explain that to people? Because sometimes I'll be asked, like, well, if there are 300,000 and I'm in this line, how am I ever gonna confirm the transaction, or is it gonna take days to settle? How do you explain that?

确实有点复杂。传统金融中人们想到交易费时，通常会按金额比例计算，比如转账金额的1%，因为稀缺资源往往是流动性。而在比特币网络中，你作为交易者消耗的稀缺资源是区块空间——一千字节的区块空间可能对应着从一个人到数百人不等规模的经济活动。

I I think yeah. It is a little bit confusing. I think a lot of people, when they think of transaction fees in the traditional finance sense, they'll think of it in terms of, by volumes, like, 1% of the amount that you're sending because often the scarce thing is, liquidity. Whereas the scarce thing that you are the scarce resource that you're using up as a transactor on the Bitcoin network is block space. And any like, a thousand bytes of block space can correspond to anywhere from one to, like, you know, hundreds potentially of people's economic activity.

是的。对于习惯传统金融工具的人来说，这种反差可能需要适应。我的解释是：比特币交易不同于信用卡或现金支付，人们试图用那些支付方式的思维模式来理解比特币，这可能不太准确。

Yeah. And so I I think maybe that is kind of the contrast that a lot of people are not accustomed to if they come from more traditional financial, tools. Mhmm. But I guess my only answer to that would probably be, like, Bitcoin transactions don't I think the like, I think a lot of people are using maybe credit card transactions or those kind of, like, I hand you some cash kind of payments. They're trying to map that onto their mental model of what Bitcoin is, And maybe that's not quite accurate.

我们其实有更准确的说法：比特币更适合用于结算，而非信用卡/Visa类型的支付。回到你的问题，确实存在交易积压的情况，这些交易会根据费率优先级排序——因为矿工打包的每个区块空间都是有限的。

And I think we have more language around this where it's like, oh, it's actually for settlement instead of, like, kind of credit card type visa type payments. But yeah. So there there's there's to answer your question, I guess, there's a backlog of transactions that are waiting to get through. And they're prioritized based on fees, fee rate because, you know, a miner is gonna publish a block. It has a limited amount of space.

因此，再次强调，由于这是一种稀缺资源，为了让你的交易更快通过，你需要出更高的费率，即为你使用的每字节数据支付更高的费用。这确实很烦人，但这就是我们目前所拥有的交互方式。希望未来我们能开发出对用户更直观的方案。不过这也意味着，如果同时有很多人进行交易，你的交易可能无法及时确认。希望这些解释能有所帮助。

And so, again, because that's a scarce resource, the way that you bid for your transaction to go through more is you bid a higher fee rate, a higher fee per bytes that you're using. And that's really annoying, but that's kind of the interface that we have so far. Hopefully, we build something a bit more intuitive for users along the way. But, yeah, it means that your transaction might not go through if a lot of other people are trying to transact. I don't hopefully, this is helpful.

不，我认为

No. I think

确实如此。因为当你开始理解挖矿过程、交易如何真正被打包进去，以及需要等待大约六个确认这些事实时，可能会感到有些困惑。这也为攻击提供了便利的途径。其他区块链上的人常说他们速度更快等等，但他们不具备比特币特有的安全性和去中心化特性——这正是中本聪通过设计特定区块大小来实现的，这样每个人都能运行节点。

it is. Again, because once you start understanding just the the process of mining and how the transactions actually get in there and the fact that you should wait for, what, like, six confirmations, I that that can be a little confusing, and it allows for easy vectors for attack. Right? People on other blockchains that say, oh, well, we're faster, blah blah blah. But they don't have the security and decentralization that Bitcoin does specifically because Satoshi designed it to have a certain block size and so that everyone can run a node.

对吧？但这确实意味着随着需求增加，会有更多人争抢进入这些区块。我认为这会让人思考：这对我日常生活有什么影响？毕竟没人愿意支付高额手续费。相比之下，闪电网络几乎更容易理解，因为它就像开着的一个记账本。

Right? But that does mean that as there's more demand, there's going to be a lot more people trying to fit into these blocks. And I think that that will make people wonder how does that impact me day to day because they don't wanna pay high fees. And it's easier to understand almost lightning because it's it's like an open tab. Right?

你可以进行无数次往来交易，最后才在区块链上结算，而不必盯着内存池里30万笔待处理交易发愁：这些要怎么处理？如何适配十分钟的出块时间？所以有时候向新手解释确实有点困难。你会遇到这类问题吗？

You could just go back and forth a million times, and then you settle later on the blockchain versus looking at a mempool that has 300,000 pending transactions going, how is this all gonna work and fit in and and keep with the ten minute block time? So sometimes I think it's it's a little confusing to explain to newcomers. Do you get questions like that?

是的，经常有人问为什么不能直接扩大区块大小。其实这个问题很好，就像我之前说的，运行节点和维护这个去中心化网络不是靠简单命令就能实现的。

Yeah. Yeah. I get a lot of why can't we just increase the block size kind of questions. And so well, actually, is a good point because, like I was saying before, running nodes and and having this decentralized network, it's not just something you can, like, command into existence. Right?

这不是写一行代码就能自动去中心化的。这是一个需要克服众多技术挑战的设计目标。因此，节点运行的成本和要求确实是我们非常关注的问题。比如你在树莓派上运行的节点——希望它价格便宜，树莓派大概不到100美元吧，而且不会让你的电费账单每月或每天暴涨。

It's not like a line of code that you can write, and then it will be decentralized. It's like the culmination it's a design goal where you you have a lot of technical challenges. And so, actually, this this is very, very much a concern for us is the cost and the requirements of running a node. Like, you have a node running on your on your Raspberry Pi, which was hopefully pretty cheap. A Raspberry Pi is, like, I don't know, hopefully less than a $100, and it's not, like, eating up your electricity bills every year, every day or month, whatever.

而且它并不要求你必须是个技术高手才能搭建节点。这些都是非常重要的技术要点，意味着即使你不是软件工程师也能运行一个节点，对吧？区块大小是影响节点运行资源需求的因素之一。目前区块链数据量已经接近600GB左右。

And it's not requiring you to be like the a tech wizard in order to set up. Like, those are all really important technical things that translate into you running a node as someone who, like, is not a software engineer. Right? And so block size is part of the equation of re resources to run a node. So today, like, the blockchain is I think it's, like, close to 600 gigabytes or something.

但UTXO集合的大小只有几十GB。这意味着日常使用的树莓派或普通电脑都能运行节点。但如果我们将区块大小扩大10倍，或让出块速度快10倍，虽然能处理更多链上交易，却会给节点运营者带来巨大压力，因为成本会大幅增加。另一方面——

But the UTXO set size is, like, in the tens of gigabytes. And this means that, like, an everyday Raspberry Pi, like regular computers, is able to run a node. But if we were to, like, 10 x the block size or, like, make the block intervals 10 times faster, and you're just you're processing more transactions on chain, but it it undermines this it it puts, like, a pressure on on node runners because it costs so much more. While on the other hand

这会逐渐导致中心化。

It centralizes over time.

没错。另一方面，当区块容量很小时，反而会激励闪电网络这类方案的构建。因为区块空间稀缺性会迫使人们更明智地使用区块空间。这意味着交易所的交易会更紧凑以节省手续费，

Yeah. Yeah. Well, on the other hand, like, things like Lightning, are incentivized to be built when you have really small block sizes. Because you have this scarcity that has a pressure towards people to use block space more wisely. It means that, exchanges are gonna be much more compact so that they can save on fees.

也意味着闪电网络会被建立，可能还会出现更多分层方案。嗯...这个话题我就说到这里。

It means that Lightning is built and maybe more layers are built. I'll Mhmm. That's I'll leave it at that.

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以82岁客户比尔为例。

Take 82 year old customer bills.

试试Bitcoin Way服务。您将顺利拥有并保护这个人类史上最伟大的货币。

Give the Bitcoin way a try. You will be well on your way to owning and protecting the greatest money ever discovered.

立即预约30分钟免费咨询。好了，回到节目。OK，我超爱这段。

Set up your thirty minute free consultation today. Alright. Back to the show. Okay. I love that.

这真的超级实用。我想请教你——之前在会议上听你讨论比特币是否可能被黑客攻击，比如主权国家是否可能入侵并瘫痪网络影响交易？能详细说说吗？

This is super helpful. I wanted to ask you. I heard you talk at a conference, and you were talking about whether or not Bitcoin can be hacked. Like, could a nation state come in and and really jam the network and affect our ability to transact? Can you talk more about that?

说实话，当时听完有点害怕，听起来我们还没达到能完全抵御主权国家攻击的技术水平？我理解得对吗？

Because when I heard you, I'll be honest, I was a little scared because it sounded like we're not at a place where this is an unhackable nation state resistant technology. Did I understand that correctly?

这个观点源自某条推文，有人发起投票问'我们能抵挡主权国家攻击吗'，很多人盲目回答'能'。可能我推特刷太多了，但我本意不是吓唬谁。我想表达的是——用民主制度来类比——我们不能把现有成果视为理所当然，不能觉得'中本聪白皮书都写好了就高枕无忧'。

So that came from a tweet that I read where someone polled, can we withstand a nation state attack? And a lot of people said yes kind of blindly. And there were you know, maybe I'm reading too much Twitter, but my intention was not to scare anybody. I think what I was trying to say there is, kind of back to, I guess, back to, like, that democracy analogy. We can't just take for granted, like, what we have today, and and we can't just be like, yeah, Satoshi wrote it down.

这份章程存在，所以我们没问题。就是说，我们必须维护它。比特币可能失败或达不到我们期望的程度有很多种方式，这些方式往往以监管等形式存在。

This constitution exists. Therefore, we're good. Like, it's it's so we have to, like, uphold. There are a lot of ways in which, in which Bitcoin can not can fail or or not succeed to the extent that we hope that it will. And this is not it's like it's in the form of, like, regulatory things.

也可能是文化层面的原因。比如人们就是不喜欢它之类的。所以如果比特币成功了，那将是因为我们所有人共同促成的。但实现这个目标的过程中仍有许多问题需要解决。我之前提到的国家类比，某种程度上是在说软件漏洞。

It can be in the form of, like, cultural things. Like, maybe people just don't like it, you know, all this. And so it's you know, if Bitcoin succeeds, it'll be because, like, we all we all made that happen. But there are there are there are still problems that we have to solve along the way in order to in order to make that happen. And so the nation state analogy thing, I was talking about kind of software bugs.

我们最近开始做安全公告披露，公开旧版本软件中存在的漏洞。通常这些漏洞很难被利用。中本聪发布软件后的前十五年里，那些容易发现的漏洞基本都已被处理。但随着安全标准提高，你仍能找到一些漏洞案例——如果有人拥有大量资源且技术娴熟，就能发现并利用这些漏洞。比如这会导致某个节点崩溃。

So we've recently started doing security advisory disclosures where we publicize bugs that have been in older versions of of the software. And, typically, they're hard to pull off. The low hanging fruit in the past fifteen years since Satoshi first published the software was all taken care like, pretty much all taken care of early on. But, like, as the security bar has gotten higher, you can still kind of find examples of bugs where, like, if someone has a lot of resources and they're very technologically in tune with they're to spot this bug and exploit it. It means, for example, that this node will crash.

这为什么重要呢？其实...抱歉，我得确认下说法，因为不想引起恐慌。是的，我们发现的都是网络层面的漏洞。

And why does that matter? You know, it's not it's not sorry. What I'm gonna actually, I I should make sure because I don't want to scare people. Yeah. We're we're finding, like, network level bugs.

明白吗？我们发现的不是那种...整个加密体系基础存在问题的重大漏洞。不是说什么'所有资金都处于危险中'的情况。不会有人找到你的私钥偷走所有比特币。

Right? We're not finding, like, oh, like, the entire cryptographic scheme that we built these things on is Okay. Like, unsafe and, actually, all the funds are are are, like, in danger. That's not the case. It's not like somebody's gonna find your private key and steal all your Bitcoins.

真正的漏洞是像这样的：当有人攻击时你的节点可能会崩溃。这很成问题——比如如果你依赖节点运行闪电网络客户端，一旦离线没收到链上更新，就可能损失资金。另一个例子是有人能扣留区块或审查区块。就像我说的，当有人挖出区块时会广播给所有人...

That's not the bug. The bugs are things like your node might crash if somebody's trying to attack you. And that can be very problematic because if you're relying on your node for your Lightning for your Lightning client, for example, and you go offline and you aren't aware of chain updates, you might lose money. Another example is if people are able to withhold block are able to censor blocks. So, again, I was talking about, like, when somebody finds a block, they're going to broadcast it to everybody.

这本来是你获知主链信息的渠道。但如果有人能阻止你接收主链信息，或者给你提供一条替代链，那就很严重了——可能在'平行宇宙'里你收到了付款，而现实世界却没有。而且我们常看到全网约20%节点运行着存在漏洞的旧版本，如果发生大规模攻击，会对网络造成严重损害。

And and that's that's how you hear about what the main chain is, hopefully. However, if somebody's able to prevent you from hearing about the main chain, that's really problematic because or they could serve you an alternate chain. That could mean that, you know, in this alternate universe, you did get paid, whereas in the real universe, you didn't. And, of course, like, kind of network wide, we often see that there's, 20% of nodes that are running a really old version that's that's vulnerable to something. If there's a mass attack, like, that can be really harmful for the network.

或者说，如果从节点崩溃、节点停滞或接收传播区块耗时过长的角度来看这些攻击，这些都对网络极其不利，尤其影响矿工时。它们可能改变区块生产的状态。从软件层面看，若大量节点短暂崩溃，我认为这非常糟糕。

Or if Right. Know, if the attacks in the in in the sense of, like, a node crashes or a node stalls or it takes really long for them to receive and propagate blocks. These are all, like, really unhealthy for the network, and especially if it affects miners. Like, it can kind of alter the state of how blocks are produced in that time. And and maybe from a software perspective, like, if the network like, you know, if a bunch of nodes crash for for a second, like, I think that's really bad.

但也可能实际上毫无意义。也许那些只是某人的比特币爱好节点，没有资金被盗，却可能成为公关危机。比如成功攻击交易所使用的节点就会很成问题。当然，我并非要吓唬谁。

But maybe, like, it actually doesn't mean anything. Maybe all those were all, like, somebody's hobby, you know, Bitcoin node. And nobody's funds were stolen, but it could be a marketing problem. Or, you know, it could affect, you know, if you if you're able to successfully attack one node and that's the node that, like, this exchange uses, that can be really problematic. And so, yeah, I'm not trying to scare anyone.

我只是想引导大家批判性思考——安全性不是非黑即白的问题。关键在于我们面对的威胁模型是什么，以及我们有多大把握能抵御这种威胁。我从不试图让人们对比特币产生恐慌。

I'm trying to kind of, like, you know, just maybe critically think about like, there's no when we think about security, it's not it's secure or it's insecure. Right? It's what is the threat model that we're we're dealing with, and how realistic is it for us to Okay. To be protected against that threat model. And, yeah, I'm I'm never I'm never trying to, like, get people to be scared about Bitcoin.

是的，我认为我们还有工作要做。某些扩容挑战若未攻克，就不会有今天的局面，对吧？

Yeah. I I think it's just we've got work to do. Right? And there are certain scaling challenges that if we had not overcome them, we would not be here where we are today. Right?

而要实现全球数十亿人使用的比特币超级化，我认为未来还需克服更多扩容难题。我们不该自满地说'大功告成'。

And there, I think, are future scaling challenges that we will need to overcome if we want to reach hyper Bitcoinization. Okay. Of the of the billions of people using it. And and so we shouldn't just, like, be complacent and be like, yep. We're done.

懂我意思吗？这种情况从未存在，也不该存在。

You know? Like Yeah. That was never the case, and it shouldn't be the case.

没错。我们不该想当然认为比特币注定完美无缺且毫无安全威胁。既然你对比特币理解如此深入并看到潜在威胁，从1到100分，你对真正威胁比特币网络的可能性有多担忧？这会改变你的投资策略吗？比如你会全仓投入吗？

Right. We shouldn't just assume that Bitcoin's gonna be inevitable and perfect and and there are no security threats. Well, so understanding Bitcoin as deeply as you do and seeing some of the threats that might exist, I mean, on a scale of, like, one to a 100, how how worried are you that something could pose a real threat to the Bitcoin network? And does that change maybe how you view your own investment thesis? Like, would you put all of your money in there?

因为有些人确实如此。有些人认为我要把一切都放在这里。这是我为未来储蓄的最佳机会，而人们或许应该审视

Because some people do. Some people think this is I'm gonna put everything in here. This is my best shot at saving for the future versus should maybe people look at

然后说，你不会想把所有鸡蛋放在一个篮子里。所以我认为这又回到了完全可验证性并与其他事物比较的理念上。我能了解比特币面临的诸多威胁，因为我可以查看代码。但我无法告诉你——我无法对在美银或大通使用美元的安全性做出任何判断，我完全不知道。

it and say, I you wouldn't want all your eggs in the basket. So I think this comes back to the idea of fully verifiability and comparing it with other things. So I know a lot about the threats that Bitcoin faces because I can look at the code. I could not tell you whether I I can't give you any kind of judgment of how safe, like, it is to use my US Dollars in Bank of America or Chase. I have no idea.

我看不到他们的代码，对吧？因此我认为这是个好迹象：在查看代码并与众多我非常尊敬的专家交流后，与那些真正精通安全的人共事后，我得出的结论是：确实存在一些中等严重性、极难实施的漏洞可能危及节点，但对整个网络的影响并不... 能直接回答比特币的问题是因为我能查看它。我猜测很多大公司使用的软件安全性较低——至少按相同标准衡量。当然他们存在监管壁垒和各种保险层面的原因使其可能安全。

I can't see their code. Right? And and so I think it's a good sign that having looked at the code and and having talked to so many people who I very much respect and worked with people who who really know what they're doing security wise And coming to this conclusion of, like, yeah, there are some, like, medium severity, very hard to pull off things that can put a node in danger, and the impacts on the entire network are not you know, like, being able to, like, answer that question straight for Bitcoin is because I I can look at it. I would guess, that a lot of well, I don't wanna be mean, but a lot of, like, big corporations will often use software that is that is less that I I would consider less secure, at least to the to the same standard. And they obviously, there are regulatory barriers and all all kinds of layers of of reasons why it and insurance reasons why, you know, it might be safe.

比特币是我们自愿选择的，对吧？这是自我托管的。所以投资时你需要清楚自己面临的威胁模型。我从不鼓励任何人鲁莽行事。但我想说的是：审视比特币后能给出如此积极的评价——或许我们需要担心国家级攻击者，但它确实是我见过最出色的软件。

Bitcoin is one where we signed up to be like, yep. It's I'm self custodying and you know? So you kind of need to be aware of what threat model you're putting yourself in when you're investing. So I would never encourage anyone to to be reckless. But, again, like, my point here is, like, being able to look at Bitcoin and and give, like, kind of this glowing review of, like, oh, maybe we should be worried about nation state attackers, but, you know, like, it's actually the most amazing piece of software that that I've seen is is a is a glowing review.

希望这能给你信心。

Hopefully, that that gives you confidence.

我们再来详细谈谈比特币核心开发者。之前我提到听你和Peter讨论过，你们五人拥有提交变更的权限或密钥。能否多谈谈如何控制潜在风险——比如有人可能引入有害代码？之后我们再聊聊比特币核心开发的资金问题。

Let's talk a little bit more about just the Bitcoin Core developers because I mentioned earlier, I heard you talk with Peter on what Bitcoin did about how there are five of you that can submit the changes or you have the ability, you have the key. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how we control for maybe the risks that exist there that someone might introduce something that could be harmful to the network? And then we'll talk a little bit about about financing Bitcoin core development.

当然。开源软件项目的现状通常是：某个聪明人发现问题并编写解决方案，然后其他人觉得'太棒了，这解决了我的问题'。

Sure. Yeah. The status quo with open source software projects is typically that some really smart person found a problem and then, like, coded up the solution. And then other people are like, oh, awesome. That solves my problem.

我要用它。然后不知不觉间，它就会有成千上万的用户。就像是某个人随手写出来的东西，而这个人就成了项目的维护者。他们拥有自己编写的代码所有权。

I'm gonna use it. And then before you know it, it has, like, thousands or millions of users. And it was just like some person, like, wrote this up. And and that person is the maintainer of their project. They own the code that they wrote.

即便是开源项目且允许他人贡献，通常也存在一个'独裁者'——不是真正的独裁者，而是那个最初编写代码、如今不得不对数百万用户负责的人。这类故事比比皆是，而且维护者往往没有报酬。我提到这个是为了对比比特币的情况——人们想到数字5，认为比特币核心只有五位维护者。

And even if it's open source and other people can contribute, typically, there's that dictator. Not dictator, but the person who wrote it and is now unfortunately responsible for this thing that millions of people are using. There's a lot of stories that are like this, and oftentimes the maintainers don't get paid. So that's I'm giving that to contrast with Bitcoin where because people think they they think of the number five. There are five maintainers for Bitcoin Core.

人们会觉得'才五个人？'但实际上，这已经是很多流行开源项目维护人数的五倍了。我们所说的维护权，是指拥有代码仓库的写入权限。当有人提交拉取请求时，就是在提议代码变更，比如想添加功能、重命名或增加测试等等。

And they're like, oh, so it's only five? But, like, that's five times more than what oftentimes happens with open source projects that a lot of people use. So, yeah, we have the sense of maintainership, which is being able to have right access to the repot to the place where the code is stored. So people, when they open a pull request, it means that they open a proposal for the code changes that they want to make. They're like, I wanna add this feature, or I wanna rename this thing, or I wanna add tests for this, etcetera.

任何人都可以提交请求，任何人都能参与审核。但最终只有那五位核心成员能按下合并按钮。我们的密钥都存放在公开场所，所有操作都是透明的，任何人都可以查看。

And anybody can open this open this request, and anybody can review it. But one of five people, are gonna be able to actually push the button to put that in. And our we have keys that are in this public place. All of this is public, by the way. Anybody can view it.

我们没有任何隐私操作空间，所有行为都能被完全验证——这很棒，你们也应该这样做。但最终只有五人持有密钥。这并不意味着我能强行合并代码——所谓合并是指采纳变更。我无法做出违背共识的修改，因为那样做会被回滚，我的密钥也可能被吊销。

There is absolutely nothing that we can do that is private, and absolutely nothing that we can do that is not totally verifiable by you, which is awesome, and you should do it. But, yeah, ultimately, five people have that key. And this doesn't mean that I have the ability to merge something sorry, merge as in incorporate changes, accept changes. I don't have the ability to do something that everybody disagrees with. Because if I were to do that, it would just be reverted, and then I'd probably have my key revoked.

通常我们在引入变更时，会采用渐进方式。每天都会有代码改动，然后每六个月发布一个新版本的比特币核心。所以就算我真做了什么坏事，也有数月时间让人发现、标记并回滚。

And and, typically, when we are adding changes, we'll do that, over the course. You know, every day, there will be changes made. And then every six months, we'll release a new version of Bitcoin Core, that has those changes. So even if, you know, I did something evil, like, there would be months of time for someone to find out that that had happened Right. Flag it, revert it, blah blah blah.

当然，软件发布后还需要用户主动选择运行。希望这样的机制能让人们安心。

And then, of course, after we release the software, people have to choose to run it. So, hopefully, that gives people peace of mind.

核心开发者主要通过大量资助获得资金支持，对吧？人们会捐款。我注意到最近有些争议，想更深入了解。我很想听听你的看法，因为我听到一个挺有意思的问题，让我先铺垫一下。

Well and so the core developers are financed through a lot of grants. Right? And people people donate. And I've seen that there has been a controversy lately, and I wanna better understand it. I would love to get your take on it because one thing that I've heard that I I found sort of, like, an interesting question was actually, let me back up.

我们来谈谈工作评估。在企业工作过的人都知道，每年或年中都会有绩效评估，总能挑出些毛病。哪怕你是最优秀的员工，他们也得找点需要改进的地方。

Let's talk about work reviews. Right? People have worked in corporations. They get their annual review or mid midyear review, and they always find something wrong. You could be the best employee ever, but they have to give you something to improve on.

对吧？从没有哪次评估会直接说'完美无缺，继续保持'。总会找出些问题来。

Right? Otherwise, you never have a review where someone's like, oh, it's absolutely perfect. Walk away. You know, you're good. There's always something that they'll find.

他们会吹毛求疵。那么当你受聘或获得资助来维护代码时，是否会有种压力迫使你必须找点事情做——修修补补、做些改动、进行优化？这难道不是种人性化的激励机制吗？否则你会觉得'如果我说一切完美却毫无贡献，就是失职'。

They'll nitpick. So is there a sense where if you get hired or if you are, financed to look at and maintain this this code that you sort of feel pressure to find something to do, to tinker with, to change, to improve upon? What isn't that kind of almost like a human incentive? Otherwise, you feel like, well, if I've contributed nothing and I just say everything's great, I haven't done my job.

我大概明白你的意思。这个论点我见过。我的第一反应是：其实有大量工作并非无谓折腾，而是确有必要。但某些资助类型可能产生不良激励，这点确实很像学术界——受资助者常感到来自资助方的功能开发压力。

I kind of get what you're saying. Okay. I've seen this argument. So I I think the my first answer to that is there's so much work to do that is not tinkering and and just, like, work for work's sake. But I I think the point of there maybe being perverse incentives sometimes with with certain types of grants being not great is is very similar to academia where people on grants are they often feel pressure from the grant giver to do a feature of some sort.

人们常把开发视为共识相关的事务，比如修改货币规则。但比特币核心的工作远不止这些。我认为网络协议是最有趣且活跃的开发领域，此外还有钱包功能、接口等。

I think that people often think of development as consensus related, like, you know, changing the way that, you know, the money rules are. But there's so much more than that in Bitcoin Core. The networking protocol, I think, is is the most interesting and and actively developed place. But there's also wallet things. There's, like, interfaces.

有大量工作与共识验证规则完全无关。就我所知，目前没有全职人员专门折腾共识规则。我在Brink工作，这个非营利组织收集社区捐款后由资助委员会决定全职雇佣谁。我们主要关注安全维护，虽不排斥共识相关工作，但评估资助申请时绝不会问'你准备往软件里硬塞什么新功能'。

There are all kinds of things that have absolutely nothing to do with what the consensus validation rules are. And I would say that I, like, I wouldn't be able to to point to someone right now who who is paid full time to just tinker with with consensus. And and I think so I might I might as well so I I work for Brink, which is a nonprofit that takes collects donations from the community and then has a grant committee to decide who to give full time employment contracts to. And we focus mostly on security and maintenance. And and I wouldn't say that we'd outright just reject someone for working on consensus, but the process of evaluating grant applications and and applications is very much not like, what's the feature that they're proposing they're going to shoehorn into this app into this piece of software.

这几乎与我们感兴趣的方向完全相反，所以我们资助人们去做那些真正枯燥的工作，比如维护、添加测试、编写安全公告，以及确保系统持续运行。因为这类工作永远做不完。我认为我们需要更多人，需要资助更多人从事这些工作。我完全同意我们不应该仅仅因为有人提出了某个可能很酷的新功能，或者因为他们有个能在比特币上实现某某功能的共识提案就发放资助。我认为这根本不是我们应该资助开发的方式。

That is, like, almost the opposite of of what we're interested in, which is why we fund people to work on really boring things like maintenance and adding tests and writing up security advisories and and making sure that the lights stay on. Because there is an endless amount of that kind of work to do. I think we need more people, and we need to fund more people doing that work. And I completely agree that we shouldn't be giving out grants to people just because they came up with this sexy new feature that may or may not be cool or because they have this consensus, proposal that would enable, like, blah blah blah blah on Bitcoin. I I think that I agree that that's not at all how we should be funding development.

不过，我认为这需要人们具备批判性思维，这就是为什么我觉得像Brink这样的组织存在非常重要。我真的很感激他们支持我的工作。说实话，要让我每天审核资助申请，我可不会这么开心。哇哦，希望这个回答足够细致。

However, I think it requires people to to think critically, which is why I think it's really important that things like Brink exist. And I'm really, like, really grateful that they support my work. And I and I wouldn't be as happy to be looking at grants day to day. So Wow. Hopefully, that's like a nuanced answer

不。

No.

我对此。

I to that.

感谢理解。既然你们专注于安全领域，能否谈谈AI带来的威胁？有些人担心那些超强的机器学习计算机可能会破解比特币。这可能吗？

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Well, since you guys are focused on security, can you talk about any threats that exist with AI? Some people are worried that these ultra powerful machine learning computers can kind of crack Bitcoin. Is that possible?

我并不担心这个。我觉得我...我可能会这么说——

I'm not worried about that. I don't think I I I I I'd probably say it like

假设他们能破解SHA-256，理论上我们可以分叉并让它变得更复杂对吧？如果他们能破解加密技术，那基本上整个互联网都会被摧毁。这是我的理解逻辑，所以我认为...

in Let's say they can break shot two fifty six, in theory, we could fork and make it even more complicated. Right? And and if they were to break encryption, we they would basically break everything on the Internet. Is that sort of the the logic in my understanding? So I think I

我对AI在这方面的应用并不太担心。如果你试图破解SHA-256算法，我认为AI并不太适合解决这类问题。人们有时会担心量子计算机，我觉得这种担忧在三十到五十年的时间尺度上可能更有意思。但不是明天就会发生的事。

I'm not too worried about the AI kind of angle to this. I don't think AI is very well suited for these kinds of problems if you're if you're trying to break SHA two fifty six. I think people sometimes worry about quantum computers, And I think that concern is maybe a little bit more interesting on this timescale of, like, thirty to fifty years. Okay. Not, like, tomorrow.

但确实有人在思考这个问题。我认为如果人们更关注这件事，你会看到更多相关讨论。据我所知，在量子计算领域，由于威胁时间尺度是三十到五十年，目前已有大量积极研究在进行。每年都有显著突破。我听说过比特币正在概念验证量子安全签名方案，他们说'是的'。

But but there are people thinking about this. And it's I I think if people were more concerned, you would see more about it. My understanding is, like, quantum wise, because you're thinking of the threat as, like, thirty the thirty to fifty year kind of scale, and there's a lot of active research being done. Like, every year, like, it gets extreme like, a lot better significantly. And so I I've heard of kind of quantum secure signature schemes being, like, kind of, POC'd for Bitcoin where they're like, yeah.

我们能做到，但签名大小会变成一千多字节，而不是现在的三十多字节。这就涉及到我们之前讨论的区块空间问题。这确实不太理想。既然这要二十到三十年后才可能实现，我们还有二十年时间通过研究来优化它，使其更实用、更适合我们的应用场景。

We can do it, but the signature size is gonna be, like, a thousand something bytes as opposed to, like, 30 something today. And and so, like, that's pretty like, we were talking about block space. Right? Like, that kinda sucks. And if if this is only gonna be applicable twenty to thirty years or thirty to fifty years from now, we can benefit from another twenty years worth of research to make this a lot more optimized and a lot more usable and suitable for our applicate our our use case.

所以我想说的是，你提出的这些担忧确实存在，也有人考虑过，但人们会以非常务实和深思熟虑的方式来应对这类问题。

And so, yeah, like, I guess all I'm trying to say is, like, the concerns that you've voiced and that, you know, are probably coming from somewhere, like, people think about them, but they have a very, like, practical and thoughtful approach to how to deal with those kinds of concerns.

那么你认为几十年后比特币会成为货币标准吗？我知道我们现在仍然大量使用法币，两个世界会越来越融合。但你觉得我们最终会完全转向比特币标准吗？

So do you believe that Bitcoin will be the monetary standard, I mean, decades from now? I know that we all all of us interact so much with our fiat currencies still, and the two worlds will assimilate, I think, more and more. But do you see us ever just completely just being on a Bitcoin standard?

我完全可以预见这种情况。虽然我不擅长对比特币进行预测，但我们都应该致力于把比特币打造成我们想要的样子。开发是实现这个目标的途径之一。

I can envision it, for sure. I think I'm not in the business of speculating about Bitcoin. I think we should all be in the business of making Bitcoin what we want it to be. Uh-huh. And, you know, development is one way to do that.

教育大众也是途径之一。要实现你描述的那个比特币未来需要做很多工作，我们都希望它发生。但让这一切成真同样是我们每个人的责任。比如，我并不是以'比特币三级软件工程师'的身份被雇佣的。

Educating people about it is one way to do that. There are so many things that are required to make Bitcoin this reality that you just described, and we all want it to happen. But, like, it's all equally our responsibility to to make it happen. Right? Like, for example, I wasn't hired to be software engineer level three of Bitcoin.

你知道的，你刚才提到...其实没人聘请谁当比特币的代言人，也不会有这样的人。我们选择了困难模式——去中心化。是的，去中心化做事更难，但正因如此我们必须坚持下去。

And, you know, you were saying how p you know, you weren't hired to be Bitcoin spokesperson, but, like, nobody's gonna be. And we are all we we picked hard mode where it's decentralized. Yeah. And it's harder to do things in a decentralized way, but it means that we have to do it.

有什么事情会让你夜不能寐吗？我是说，当我们讨论某些风险时，那种可能存在我们甚至没意识到的问题的想法。你有什么特别担忧的事情吗？你觉得人们应该对哪些方面提高警惕？

Is there anything that keeps you up at night? I mean, when we were talking about some of the risks and the idea that that there could be some problem that maybe we're not even thinking of. Is there anything that you that you worry about that you think that people should be a little bit more aware of?

我担心人们对Bitcoin Core的认知偏差。我开始接受更多采访的原因，就是觉得外界对这个社区的样貌存在严重误解。和所有去中心化社区一样，我们并没有聘请官方发言人。开发者们大多内向，不愿接受采访。结果就是，那些嗓门最大、最像传教士的人，或是那些角色扮演、招摇撞骗想赚钱的人，成了Bitcoin Core的'代言人'。

I worry about people's perception of Bitcoin Core. I kind of started doing more interviews, basically, because I think people have a really skewed view of what the community looks like. Like any decentralized community, we didn't hire a spokesperson to speak on behalf of Bitcoin Core. And developers tend to be really introverted and not do interviews. And so what you end up getting is kind of the really loud and really missionary types or the people who are LARPing or grifting or trying to get money, speaking on behalf of Bitcoin Core.

我认为当前存在一些极具危害性的言论，歪曲我们的工作性质，也低估了软件需要改进的工程量。让我辗转反侧的是，人们忘记了这套系统运行在开源软件之上——去中心化网络的维护本就艰难，每个人都要发挥作用。对开发者进行妖魔化、搞'纯度测试'，切断他们的资金支持或让他们承担法律风险，这些行为最终会损害我们对美好去中心化网络的愿景。希望人们能明白：开发者也是普通人，他们都在为比特币生态做贡献。我们需要更多像你们这样的人。

And I think there are some really harmful messages out there about, what it is that we do and how much work needs to be done on the software. So, yeah, what keeps me up at night is people forgetting that this thing runs on open source software, and decentralized networks are hard to maintain, and everybody has a role to play in it. And I think demonizing and administering kind of purity tests to developers, kind of depriving funding from them or letting them face legal risks, things like that are are going to harm, ultimately, the vision that we have planned for our wonderful decentralized network. So, hopefully, people take away from this that developers are normal people, and they're trying to do good for Bitcoin. And we need more of y'all.

没错，我们就是普通人。

So, yeah, we're normal people.

我觉得大家都很爱听你谈论这些，真的很鼓舞人心。而且你作为女性参与其中也令人振奋。你有没有偶尔跳脱出来感叹：天啊，这技术太不可思议了！中本聪到底是怎么想出这个的？

Well, I I I think people love listening to to you talk about this, and and it's really inspiring. And the fact that you're a woman, I think, is exciting too. Do you ever just zoom out and think, oh my gosh. This is just an incredible piece of technology. And how did Satoshi come up with this?

中本聪是谁？你...你经常想起中本聪吗？

Who is Satoshi? Like, do you how often do you think about Satoshi?

你们可能听说过，我的狗叫Toshi。对。我觉得...我认为重要的是不要把中本聪的许多观点当作先知预言或圣经般全盘接受。懂我意思吗？好的。

As you may have heard, my dog's name is Toshi. Yeah. I I think so I I think it's it's important not to kind of just take a lot of Satoshi's things as, like, prophet, like, gospel. You know? Okay.

因为中本聪也会犯错。中本聪写的代码也有漏洞。我们最近披露的一个漏洞就是中本聪时期遗留的。这不是在批评中本聪。重申一下，他依然是我生命中最重要的人物之一。

Because Satoshi made mistakes. Satoshi wrote bugs. One of the things that we disclosed recently was a Satoshi bug. And this is not to knock on Satoshi. Again, I'm like, this is, like, one of the most important people in my life.

对吧？是的。但时代在发展。当初提出的愿景终究只是个蓝图。

Right? Yeah. But, like, things things have evolved. Right? The vision that was set out there is a vision.

这是个抽象概念。我们每个人都有责任去维护、建设和发展它——从2010年代的比特币进化到2020年代的比特币。现在有了ETF，全球用户遍地开花。这真是个激动人心的新纪元，未来还会有更多时代。当我们回首今天时，可能会感叹当时人们的认知局限——随着筹码越来越高，比特币已经发生了翻天覆地的变化。

It's an abstract concept. It's something that we all have a role to play in maintaining and building and evolving from, like, 2,010 Bitcoin to 2,020 era Bitcoin. Now there's ETFs, and there's all these users all around the world. Like, it's an amazing new future, and there's going to be more eras. We're gonna look back on this day and be like, oh, that you know, they didn't know what they're you know, it like, the stakes are getting higher and higher, and Bitcoin has changed so much.

比如十年前，根本没人讨论比特币在能源需求侧灵活性方面的作用。而现在这成了最热门的话题，影响巨大。它最初只是密码朋克构想的网络货币，但已经以惊人的方式进化了。对比特币，每个人都有自己的理解。

Like, ten years ago, I I don't know that anybody was talking about Bitcoin's role in terms of demand side flexibility for from an energy perspective. And now that's, like, the hot topic of of today, and it's huge. Right? You know, it started out just as this kind of cypherpunk idea of Internet money, and it's evolved a lot since then in really great ways. And Bitcoin means something different to everybody.

但我们发现自己在某些具体实施方案上与中本聪存在分歧，我觉得这很正常。哇。我不知道...如果有人引用2010年比特币论坛上中本聪的某句话来反驳你，我觉得你应该保持怀疑——毕竟创造比特币的也是个普通人，

But we found ourselves disagreeing with Satoshi in in certain kind of implementation details, and I think that's okay. Wow. And I don't know. I I I think people so I I think if if you were to say something and then somebody were like, oh, but, you know, in 2010, Bitcoin talk forum, Satoshi said blah blah blah. I think you wanna take that with a grain of salt because it was a human being who who who made this this thing that is now Bitcoin as we know

现在的比特币。

it today.

我不知道。不知道。

I don't know. Don't know.

这想法令人难以置信，因为我觉得部分历史确实引人入胜。我热爱查阅档案，但你也明白，无论涉及谁，此刻都已不重要——有些人实在太恐惧了。比如，万一是中情局呢？好吧。不过临近尾声时，我确实想问问：你认为我们会再次陷入区块大小战争或类似事件吗？如果会，你觉得导火索可能是什么？

It's incredible to think about it as I think some of the history is fascinating, and it it's I love looking at the archives, and yet you know that no matter who it is, it doesn't matter really at this point because some people are so scared. Like, what if it was the CIA? Alright. But as we start to wrap up, I did wanna ask you, do you do you think that we're gonna go through another block size war or something equivalent to that? And and what do you think it would be if if we do?

这是个好问题。我不想挑起比特币战争。如今确实感觉软分叉周围存在诸多压力。我不希望冲突升级，也不愿看到社区因此分裂，那毫无益处。但我发现开发讨论中，很多人把代码审查当作政治游说来对待。

That's a that's a good question. And I don't wanna start a Bitcoin war. It does feel like there's a lot of pressures around soft works nowadays. I I don't want it to become that big of a conflict, and I don't want it to cause splits in the community because it's that's not helpful. But I think a lot of language around development I think a lot of people are kind of treating code review as, like, political lobbying sometimes.

我认为比特币核心是我此生见过最任人唯贤的组织，这非常非常特别。这种特质需要长期维护，但可能被某些行为破坏——比如有人试图组建游说团体，或单纯通过刷屏骚扰来制造决策瘫痪。我经常发现自己不愿在推特这类平台发表观点，尤其是当那些非比特币人士跑到GitHub上对内存池政策指手画脚时。他们有时会采用极其耗费资源的方式提交意见，这对开发工作造成沉重负担，消耗大量时间和资源。

And I think Bitcoin Core is the most meritocratic organization of people that I've ever seen in my life, And that's really, really special. And that's something that's also something that you have to maintain over time and can be undermined by people kind of trying to form like, lobbying groups or just simply spamming people and harassing people and causing people to have decision, to have post paralysis. Like, I often find myself not quite being not being quite comfortable to post, like, my opinion to to to, like, the Twitter type people who come on to to Bitcoin and not Bitcoin, to to GitHub, to register their demands for how mempool policy should be, for example. And and sometimes they'll use very kind of resource intensive ways of submitting their their opinions. And that, I think, is really taxing on development, and it soaks up a lot of resources and time.

话说我们怎么聊到这个的？

Anyway, how did how did we get here?

抱歉，刚才格洛丽亚换了房间，现在我们继续。那么你是否预见到比特币爱好者之间会因网络核心问题爆发其他类型的战争？

Sorry. So Gloria had to move rooms, but we're just getting back to it. Okay. So so you do you anticipate some other kind of war between Bitcoiners over something to do with the the ultimate core of the network?

我希望永远不要走到那一步。我认为在诉诸可能导致社区分裂的极端手段前，我们有很多方法来解决人们对共识规则的分歧。我要提醒大家不要仅凭提案表面附着的意识形态，就对技术性极强的问题仓促做出分裂性决定。寻求细微差别始终很重要，而对于如此技术性的事物，努力加深理解更是至关重要。

So I would I would hope that we never get to that. I I think there are so many ways that we can resolve differences in how people feel about what, you know, what the consensus rule should be, before resorting to kind of a a community splitting kind of event like that. I I would caution people from kind of making split decisions about very technical things on face value of, like, kind of the ideological things that are attached to to certain proposals. Right? I think seeking nuance is always really important, and seeking to understand better is extremely important for something so technical.

人们所说的话总有一定道理。但请记住，比特币是完全可验证的。我们不是政客。人们总爱阴谋论，觉得掌权者在替我们做决定，不可信任。但比特币的所有代码都公开在GitHub上。

And there's always, a grain of truth to whatever it is that people are saying. But I I think always remember that Bitcoin's fully verifiable. You know, we're not politicians. People like to kind of I mean, maybe they're they're just conspiracy theorizing and love to kind of think like, oh, you know, the people with the power are making decisions on behalf of us, and, you know, they're not to be trusted. Well, it's all, code that you can view publicly on GitHub.

所以别急着假设掌权者——虽然我不确定他们具体有什么权力——就是要坑你。比特币圈常有这种质疑现状的声音，这值得赞赏。但请记住，比特币的开发者和核心团队是出于热爱才公开透明地改进比特币。

And so, like, don't be so quick to just assume that people with power well, I don't know what kind of power exactly they would have, are are trying to screw you over. I think that's a sometimes I see that a lot in in Bitcoin, which I think is ad is admirable to to kind of question the status quo. However, like, do remember that, people who build Bitcoin, people who are developers on Bitcoin Core, they're here because they care, and they want to make Bitcoin better, and they're doing it fully in public. So just remember that.

是的，我非常认同这个观点。和你交谈很愉快。虽然时间到了，但最后还有什么想补充的吗？

Yeah. No. I love that message. It's been awesome to talk to you. I know we're out of time, but, any any just final thoughts as you, as we wrap up?

我想说的都说完了。非常感谢邀请。比特币对我意义重大，能以此为业我深感幸运，也无比期待比特币的未来发展。

Yeah. I I think I think that about covers it. Thank you so much for having me. Bitcoin means a lot to me. I'm so grateful to be doing this for a living, and I can't wait to see what's gonna happen to Bitcoin.

希望我们都明白自己能在其中发挥作用。

And I hope we all know that we have a role to play in it.

和你对话非常愉快，希望下次还能邀请你。希望听众能明白，学习比特币技术并不难，只需要花点时间，有人用简单的方式讲解。当你真正理解比特币的技术和编程原理时，会感到无比兴奋。

Well, I've loved talking to you. I hope to have you back on again. And I hope that people get out of this that you can learn even the technical components. It just takes a little bit of time and someone to walk you through it and explain it in a simple way. And when you do learn the technical components of Bitcoin and the programming, I think you just get so much more excited.

它确实是革命性、精妙绝伦又简单中透着复杂的技术协议，能在全球范围实现无数可能。这让我非常激动。我会持续学习，非常感谢你提供的知识资源。大家在哪里可以找到你？

And it really truly is this revolutionary, brilliant, intelligent, oddly simple, but complicated, I I mean, piece of piece of technology and code and protocol that I think is incredible and can do so many things on a global scale. So I get really excited by it. I I hope to learn more. I'm always learning, and and thank you so much for being a resource. Where can people find you?

我在Twitter上的用户名是glozow，g l o z o w。GitHub上也是同样的用户名。请访问brink.dev，这是赞助我的组织。如果你对学习更多技术话题感兴趣，bitcoinops.org每周会发布一份通讯，并有一个所有技术话题的索引。

I'm on Twitter as glozow, g l o z o w. I'm on GitHub at the same handle. And please visit brink.dev. That's the organization that sponsors me. And if you're interested in learning more technical topics, bitcoinops.org publishes a weekly newsletter and has an index of all technical topics.

这真的是一个绝佳方式，能让你了解比特币核心或比特币领域内任何你感兴趣的内容。

And it's a really, really great way to learn about anything that you're interested in within Bitcoin Core, within Bitcoin.

太棒了，非常喜欢。非常感谢你，格洛丽亚。希望很快能再见到你。

Perfect. Love that. Thank you so much, Gloria. Hope to see you soon.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

非常感谢收听本期《币圈故事》。如果你是通过Fountain应用收听，可以通过发送boost来表达支持并分享想法。上个月最受欢迎的节目之一是与杰夫·布斯的对谈。FaZeNHODL给这期节目boost了2021个stat币并留言说：'布斯再次提供了穿透矩阵的视角和充满希望的前进道路。他确实抓住了关键，我们需要一千个像他这样善于沟通的人。'

Thank you so much for checking out this episode of Coin Stories. If you're listening on the Fountain app, you can show your support and share your thoughts by sending a boost. One of last month's top episodes was with Jeff Booth. At FaZeNHODL boosted 2,021 stats and said, Booth once again provides perspective to help see through the matrix and a hopeful path forward. The man is onto something, and we need a thousand more that can communicate like him.

我完全同意。我特别喜欢阅读和回复你们的boost留言，所以请立即在iOS或安卓上下载Fountain应用，并确保订阅《币圈故事》。本节目仅用于教育和娱乐目的，任何内容都不应被视为正式投资建议，请务必自行研究。我的收件箱永远开放，欢迎分享反馈或嘉宾推荐。

I agree. I love reading and replying to your boost, so download Fountain on iOS or Android today, and make sure you subscribe to Coin Stories. This show is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing should constitute as official investment advice and you should always do your own research. My inbox is open if you wanna share feedback or guest suggestions.

可以通过natalie@talkingbitcoin.com联系我。我们下次见。

You can reach me at natalie@talkingbitcoin.com. I'll see you next time.