构建与保存网络：蒂姆·伯纳斯-李爵士与布鲁斯特·卡勒的对话

感谢您加入我们，收听联邦俱乐部的又一期播客节目。

Thank you for joining us for another podcast from the Commonwealth Club.

晚上好，欢迎来到联邦俱乐部国际事务栏目。我是杰拉尔德·哈里斯，担任俱乐部科学与技术会员论坛主席，同时也是理事会成员。科技与社会会员论坛的宗旨是让会员和与会者了解科技领域当前及新兴的发展动态。

Good evening. Welcome to Commonwealth Club World Affairs. My name is Gerald Harris. I am the chair of the club's member led forum on science and technology and also a member of the club's board of governors. The focus of the technology and society member led forum is to expose members and attendees to current and emerging developments in science and technology.

而今晚的主题再合适不过了。请俱乐部会员举手示意。太好了。再次感谢各位的到来，我们需要你们。

And boy, this sure enough fits in. Please raise your hand if you're a member of the club. Wonderful. Again, thank you for coming. We need you.

我想告诉大家成为联邦俱乐部会员的一些福利：首先能以极优惠价格参与精彩活动，部分甚至免费；还能参与策划俱乐部项目，获得活动参与机会。我的同事休·莱曼就在现场，他作为志愿者与我合作过多个项目，承担过主持、嘉宾邀请等全部工作。

And I want to tell you what some of the benefits are of becoming a member of the Commonwealth Club. First of all, access to some absolutely wonderful programs at much lower prices and in some cases even free. You can also be involved in developing programs for the club and have a chance to participate in programs. One of my colleagues, Hugh Lehman is here. He's worked with me on several programs as a volunteer, moderated, found speakers, everything.

这是个你可以深度参与的俱乐部。你可以和我及其他成员共同参与俱乐部治理——没错，你甚至可以进入理事会。我们是非营利组织。

This is a club that you can participate in. You can join me and others in the governance of the club. That's right. You can be on the board of governance. This is a nonprofit organization.

这栋建筑就是你们的会所，由各位的税款支持运营。明白吗？这是公共资产。每月最低仅需20美元即可入会，在旧金山这不过是两杯咖啡的钱。

This building is your clubhouse. It is supported by your tax dollars. Okay? So this is a public asset. You can join for as little as $20 a month, which we know in San Francisco was about two cups of coffee.

对吧？我们都知道物超所值。当然，作为科技从业者——在座有些朋友实力雄厚——你们也可以选择成为俱乐部的重要赞助人或持续支持会员。这个组织将造福你们的子孙后代。

Right? So we know it's worth that. Now, if you have some serious resources, this is the tech community, produces some of you do, come on. You can also be a substantial contributor to the club, a sustaining member. So this organization is here for your children and your grandchildren.

这个房间是以已故的塔德·托比命名的，他是我们最慷慨的支持者之一。如果您在这栋大楼里走走，会看到到处都是相信俱乐部使命的人们的名字。这里也是您建立人脉、与未来朋友和同事建立联系的地方。只需访问www.comwealthclub.org，所有信息都在那里。

This very room is named after the late Tad Toby, who is one of our most generous supporters. If you walk around this building, you're gonna see names everywhere from people who really believe in the mission of the club. This is also a place that you can build your network and make connections with future friends and colleagues. So just go to www.comwealthclub.org. All the information is there.

请允许我介绍今晚的演讲嘉宾。请大家耐心听我说，因为介绍蒂姆·伯纳斯·李的机会并不常见。蒂姆·伯纳斯·李是万维网、HTML、URL系统和HTTP的发明者。他于1989年3月12日提出了信息管理系统，并在同年11月中旬通过互联网首次实现了超文本传输协议HTTP客户端与服务器之间的成功通信。他设计并实现了第一个网页浏览器和服务器，并推动了网络的后续发展。

Let me introduce our speakers for this evening. I want you to bear with me because not very often you introduce Tim Berners Lee. Tim Berners Lee is the inventor of the World Wide Web, HTML, the URL system, and the HTTP. Berners Lee proposed an information management system on the 03/12/1989 and implemented the first successful communication between a hypertext transfer protocol, HTTP, client and server via the internet in mid November of that year. He devised and implemented the first web browser and web server and helped foster the web's subsequent development.

他是万维网联盟的创始人和荣誉主任，该组织负责网络的持续发展。2009年4月，他与罗斯玛丽·李共同创立了万维网基金会。他当选为美国国家科学院外籍院士。通过他在万维网联盟、开放数据研究所和万维网基金会的工作，以及SOLID协议的开发，如今作为Interrupt公司的首席技术官和联合创始人，他始终不渝地倡导共享标准、全民开放网络访问以及个人在网络上的赋权。

He is the founder and emeritus director of the World Wide Web Consortium, which oversees the continued development of the web. With Rosemary Lee, he co founded the World Wide Web Foundation in April 2009. He was selected as a foreign associate of the National Academy of Sciences. Through his work with the World Wide Web Consortium, the Open Data Institute, and the World Wide Web Foundation, and through the development of the SOLID protocol. And now as CTO and co founder of Interrupt, he has been a tireless advocate for shared standards, open web access for all, and for the empowerment of individuals on the web.

作为技术积极力量的坚定信徒，他被《时代》杂志评为20世纪最重要的人物之一。他获得了包括首尔和平奖、被誉为计算机界诺贝尔奖的图灵奖在内的多项殊荣。2004年他被封为爵士，随后被伊丽莎白三世女王授予功绩勋章。他的最新著作《这是给每个人的：万维网未完成的故事》可供购买。

A firm believer in the positive power of technology. He was named in Time Magazine's list of most important people of the twentieth century. He has been the recipient of several awards including the Seoul Peace Prize, the Turing Prize, widely recognized as a Nobel for computing. He was knighted in 2004 and later appointed to the Order of the Mirror by her majesty queen Elizabeth III. His most recent book, This Is For Everyone, The Unfinished Story of the World Wide Web, is available for you for purchase.

与他一同出席的是布鲁斯·德卡尔，互联网档案馆的创始人和数字图书管理员，他是公共互联网访问的热心倡导者。他的职业生涯专注于一个目标：为全人类提供知识普及。从麻省理工学院毕业后不久，卡尔帮助创立了并行超级计算机制造商Thinking Machines公司。1989年，卡尔创建了互联网首个出版系统——广域信息服务器。1996年，他创立了互联网档案馆，并联合创立了帮助编目网络的Alexa互联网公司。

Joining him, Bruce DeCale, founder and digital librarian of Internet Archive, is a passionate advocate of public Internet access. He has spent his career intent on a singular focus, providing universal access to all knowledge. Soon after graduating from MIT, Kale helped found the company Thinking Machines, a parallel supercomputer maker. In 1989, Kale created the Internet's first publishing system called the Wide Area Information Server. In 1996, Kale founded Internet Archive and he co founded Alexa Internet, which helped catalog the web.

今晚担任主持人的是劳伦·古德，《连线》杂志的高级记者。她曾任职于《华尔街日报》、《The Verge》和Recode等媒体。请大家和我一起欢迎这个杰出的专家小组。

Joining him as our moderator tonight, Lauren Good, a senior correspondent with Wired magazine. Her career stints include The Wall Street Journal, The Verge, and Recode. Please join me in welcoming this outstanding panel this evening.

非常感谢各位的到来，也感谢布鲁斯特和蒂姆爵士的参与。能采访您们真是莫大的荣幸。蒂姆，这是我第二次有机会采访您。这次会更好。那么

Thank you so much to everyone for being here, and thank you to Brewster and sir Tim for doing this as well. It's truly an honor to interview you. This is the second time I've had the opportunity to interview you, Tim. This one's gonna be better. So would

欢迎加入斯考莫豪特俱乐部。

like to have you to Skomalhaut Club.

今晚我们要庆祝几件事。首先是蒂姆的新书，布鲁斯特，你想

We are we're celebrating a few things tonight. One is your new book, Tim, which, Brewster, do you wanna

买书的事可以稍后再处理。

Buy the book. You can buy the book afterwards.

这正是我们要讨论的话题。我会就相关内容问你几个问题。

Which we're going to be talking about. I'm going to ask you a few questions related to that.

确实很棒。

It's really good.

没错。同时我们还要庆祝互联网档案馆存档的网页突破了一万亿，这太不可思议了。你知道第一万亿个网页是什么吗？我很好奇。

And yes. And, also, we are celebrating you are celebrating the one trillionth web page archived by the Internet Archive, which is incredible. Do you have a sense of what the one trillionth web page was? I'm just curious.

具体很难准确说清。所以我们主要是庆祝达到这个里程碑。嗯。但可能意味着十亿人的声音现在被图书馆收录，这远超历史上任何图书馆的馆藏记录。

It's a little hard to exactly say. So we're we're just celebrating that we're hitting that milestone. Mhmm. But it's probably a billion people's voices are now in a library. That's much more than any library's ever had, you know, a record of in the past.

所以这恰恰证明了人们真的很了不起，对吧？因为他们非常乐于分享所知。而蒂姆建立的系统，是的，让这一切成为可能。

So it just shows that people are kind of awesome, right, because they're really interested in sharing what they know. And the system that Tim built Yeah. Made that possible.

我现在要提个小建议，我们干脆就说那是《连线》杂志的一篇文章，你觉得如何？

I'm gonna make a little proposal right now, which is why don't we just say that it was a wired.com article that was the what do think?

劳伦写的。

By Lauren.

没错。

That's right.

记得看署名。

Look for that byline.

永久存档。在我提问之前，你今晚还要给蒂姆爵士颁发一个小奖项。想聊聊这个吗？

Archived forever. And before I get to our questions, you have a little award to present to Sir Tim tonight as well. Would you like to talk about that?

是的。每年互联网档案馆都会颁发‘互联网档案馆英雄奖’，表彰那些真正超越自我、常冒风险或放弃重大机遇去实现公益的人，致力于推动全民获取所有知识。这个奖配有酷炫的3D打印奖座和U盘，里面存了300份首个网页——因为事实证明网页会随时间改变。首个网页如今看来已不同。那我现在就颁给他吗？

Yes. Every year, the Internet Archive has the Internet Archive Hero Award for somebody that's really done above and beyond, often taken risks or taken where they've sat out on major opportunities to be able to go and do the public good, to go towards achieving universal access to all knowledge. So we have this Internet Archive Hero Award that this cool three d printed thing with a thumb drive that has the first web page on it 300 times because it turns out that the web page has changed over time. The first web page, if you look at it, has changed. So should I give it to him now?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

蒂姆，感谢你成为今年互联网档案馆策展奖的获得者。非常感谢。我还没有得过这个奖呢。

Tim, thank you for being the recipient of this year's Internet Archive Cural Award. Thank you very much. Don't have one of those.

这真是太酷了。

That's that's so cool.

所以我想，今晚在非常有限的时间里，我们要大致梳理一下网络从诞生到今天的演进轨迹。大家都在谈论人工智能，相信你们很多人对AI都有疑问，我们会谈到这个话题。但我想先请你们两位分享一下初次见面的情景，当时各自在研究什么，以及你们的工作是如何随时间相互影响的。

So I thought that I mean, what we're basically going to do in a very short amount of time this evening is kind of trace the arc of the web from its inception to where we are today. Everyone's been talking about AI. I'm sure a lot of you have questions about AI. And so we're gonna get to that. But I thought I would start just by asking you both to tell us a little bit about when you first met, and what you were both working on at the time, and how, you know, your work informed your work over time.

嗯，我们当时某种程度上都在开发相互竞争的系统。我研发的是广域信息系统，而他创造了万维网。两者本质上都是互联网协议。实际上，Roosters是他采用的一个已有标准——我本该也这么做，而不是自己另起炉灶。

Well, we were both working on on competitor on, to a certain extent, competing systems. First, I had the wide area information system, and I had the web. And they were both basically protocols, internet protocols. Roosters, in fact, was a standard that he was using a standard that already existed, which I should have done, really. Invented my own.

你

You

搞对了。

got it right.

简单来说，它们既是客户端服务器，也是系统服务器。你可以坐在电脑前，出去获取和查找信息。但当时它们被称为'waste'，后来演变成了万维网。我们最终会参加那些讨论广域信息系统的会议。

But and so basically they were both, client server, system server. This is where you could sit there on your computer and go out and get and look for information. But they they were so, waste, it was called, and the web. So we'd end up at conferences where people discussed wide area information systems, I guess.

我记得在波士顿时，约翰·马科夫曾写过一篇文章，探讨为什么ARPANET国防系统会被用于通过网络查找和检索信息。这篇文章登上了《纽约时报》商业版的头版。这个互联网概念让我和蒂姆都感到惊讶——它已经存在多年，但突然开始具备可用性，让人们能真正参与其中。

I remember it in in Boston, and I think John Markoff had written a piece on why publishing on the Internet that the idea of this ARPANET defense system was going to be used for going and finding and retrieving information over networks. And he wrote this piece that was and it was on the front page of the business section of the New York Times. And I think it took me by surprise and I and I remember it's taking Tim by surprise that there was so much interest in this Internet thing. Because this Internet thing had been around from our perspective for years and years. But it was starting to achieve a usability that people could then start to see themselves a part of.

更广泛的信息服务本质上是关于出版，让每个人都能发布自己的故事，成为出版者，同时让出版商转向这个开放网络而非封闭花园。这使得网页项目、Gopher项目和Waze项目相辅相成。万维网的显示效果明显更优，搜索功能也很重要，而Gopher让任何人只需在麦金塔电脑上下载免费软件就能成为服务器。这些系统最终融合，NCSA的马赛克浏览器将这些服务集于一身，后来演变成网景浏览器。

The wider information service was really about publishing and trying to make people so that they can go and publish their own stories, ever make everyone a publisher, but also make publishers put them on this new open network as opposed to the closed gardens that we had before. And that's what made the web project, the Gopher project, the Waze project, all simpatico, and we're all good friends and solving different parts of it. The display of the World Wide Web was clearly superior, and you could easily go and put things together very easily. The search part, I the Waze part, think was fairly important, and the Gopher made it so that anybody could set up by just downloading a piece of free software onto their Macintosh, they could suddenly be a server. So there's all of these systems kind of we just merged, and the Mosaic browser from NCSA was a was a mosaic of these different services all in one, and that became Netscape.

当然，所有这些的大门就是万维网。

And so the the the front door of all of that, of course, is the web.

你们相遇时，听起来是在波士顿的MIT时期。蒂姆，在你构想并发明万维网后，是什么促使你来到美国将其推向主流？

And so at the time that you met, it sounds like it was hap it was when you were at MIT, it was in Boston. Tim, what brought you to The US, you know, after you had this vision and you you invented the World Wide Web, what actually made you come here to to, you know, bring it to the mainstream?

实际上，当时数字设备公司的艾伦·科托克等人来到我在日内瓦欧洲核子研究中心的办公室。他们正在研究科技界该如何应对互联网。艾伦建议我：'蒂姆，你不能只设计协议，必须成立联盟，最好由MIT来运作，因为他们擅长这类事情。'

So in practice, I so I wanted to I was told that my people come, Digital Equipment Corporation, for example, Alan Kotok, in fact, remember, came into my office at CERN in Geneva, and he's and with a few colleagues from a committee that was trying to figure out what tech should do about the internet. And he said that, you know, Tim, you should start, you've designed this protocol, but it's no good just, you can't just design a protocol. You have to start a consortium. And ideally, you have to have MIT running a consortium because MIT knows how to do that sort of thing. So what you should do is According to MIT.

艾伦·科托克是MIT的重要人物，比如他曾是大型铁路模型协会成员。后来我才知道他与MIT有深厚联系。当时他在数字设备公司工作，不断有人来瑞士办公室建议我'应该在MIT运作这个联盟'。

And according to Alan Kotok, who'd who'd been a big who's a he's a big MIT guy. He he big Model Railway Society member, for example, Alan. So Alan had lots of strong links with MIT, which I learned later later. He was working for a digital equipment corporation. So, for example, that that that continued to people arriving in my office in Switzerland saying you should do something like run that consortium out of MIT.

但我并未全盘接受他的说法。于是1992年我确实去了，在沙山路待了一个月，又在麻省理工学院的计算机科学实验室待了一个月。接着我四处考察，参观了施乐帕克研究中心，在那里得到了大量支持。基本上，美国有许多地方都能运作这个联盟。

But I didn't necessarily take his word for it. So I did go 1992. I went across I spent a month on Sand Hill Road, spent a month at MIT, Lab for Computer Science. And so then, and sort of looked around, looked at Xerox PARC, as I had a lot of support there. And so But basically, lots of places in The States could have run the consortium.

最终麻省理工成为首选。但欧洲核子研究中心其实不懂如何运作联盟。所以我们最终决定自行启动，并邀请了法国实验室INVIR加入，因为他们曾运作强子对撞机联盟。最初这个联盟是由麻省理工和INVIR共同发起的。

MIT turned out to be the place to pick. But CERN didn't really know how to run a consortium. So what we ended up, we ended up starting started up. We did involve INVIR, the French lab, because they did the hadronic consortium. So basically it started off by MIT in INVIR.

但为什么选择住在波士顿而非法国？因为互联网当时已在美国普及。要知道，互联网是在美国发明并获得资金支持的。美国各大学都获得了实验经费，通过长途电缆等设施互相连接。

But because, but why then pick the living in Boston rather than the living in France? Because the Internet has spread across The US. The Internet, right, was funded. It was invented in The US, it was. And there had been US universities had all been funded to experiment with it and to connect each other up with with long distance cables and stuff.

因此互联网当时已在美国扎根。当网页软件面世后，便迅速在所有早期互联网用户中传播——而这些用户主要在美国。可以说，网页技术本质上成了美国的产物。

So the Internet was existed in The US. So then once the web software was available, it spread throughout it spread throughout all those early adopters of the Internet, and they were in The US. So and essentially, the web became The US.

嗯，对我来说这很契合。毕竟我当时就在波士顿工作。于是我四处询问：'我们该把互联网安置在哪里？'

Mhmm. And for me, it dovetails. Right? Because I was based in Boston. And so I went around and asked, where should we put the Internet?

我这句话的实际意思是'互联网的物理载体应该设在——'

And what I meant by that is where will

就在那个U盘里。

It's on that thumb drive there.

是的。它究竟会在哪里真正诞生并出现呢？于是我询问了莲花公司创始人米奇·卡普尔，他说，波士顿吧。丹尼·希利斯则说是东京，这挺有意思的。

Yeah. Where will it where will it really be born and come about? And so I asked Mitch Kapoor, founder of Lotus, and he said, Boston, please. Danny Hillis said Tokyo. That was kind of interesting.

而提出'元数据'这个术语的比尔·邓恩是个鲜为人知但极其出色的人物。他说，去一个人们不觉得你疯狂的地方，那就是湾区。这成为了我的起点——我熟悉ARPANET、互联网、超级计算机领域和出版商。由于我曾协助《纽约时报》上线，接着是《华尔街日报》等等。

And Bill Dunn, who came up with the term metadata, is an interesting man that you don't know about, but he's fabulous. He said, go someplace that people don't think you're crazy, and that's the Bay Area. And so that was the start for me. I knew how to deal with the ARPANET and the Internet and the supercomputer folks and the publishers. And then because I worked with the New York Times putting them online, The Wall Street Journal put them online, on and on and on.

但我当时不了解个人电脑世界——他们还没实现网络功能，操作系统也都不堪用。下一代机器才首次搭载真正可用的操作系统，而这既非苹果也非个人电脑。所以对我来说，嗯，它注定在美国诞生，我把赌注押在了湾区。

But I didn't know the personal computer world hadn't gotten networks to work yet. They didn't have operating systems that were worth using. The next machine was third of the first one that had a real operating system, and that wasn't with Apple or or the or the PC. So for me Mhmm. It it was gonna be in The United States, and I put my cards on the Bay Area.

关于硅谷。布鲁斯特，是什么促使你在1996年想要创建这个档案库？那时万维网才出现没几年，而你却极具远见地意识到我们需要以某种方式保存这些。像链接失效这类问题，我原以为是现代才有的现象。如今海量媒体内容更凸显这种需求。

On Silicon Valley. Brewster, what gave you I mean, what was the impetus for you wanting to create the archive in 1996? Because at that point, the World Wide Web had only been around for a few years, really, and you kind of had the foresight then to say, we're going to need to preserve this somehow. I mean, I I tend to think of things like link rot as a relatively modern phenomena. And now, of course, there's so much media, so much content out there.

为了我们的集体文化记忆，确实需要某个地方保存所有这些内容的快照。但你早在那个阶段就开始思考这个问题了。

It kind of makes sense that we would want, you know, for our collective and cultural memory, like a a snapshot of all of that somewhere. But you I mean, you were thinking about this really early on.

早在96年之前就开始了——1980年我们就预见了未来：桌面出版将兴起，各种技术会出现，尽管那时连麦金塔电脑都不存在。只有造价500万美元、32MB内存的ARPANET计算机。

Started way before '96 so in 1980, we knew what the future was gonna look like. We knew there was gonna be desktop publishing, and we knew there was gonna be all of this stuff, but the Mac didn't exist yet. There was this, you know, ARPANET. These computers cost $5,000,000, and they had 32 megabytes of RAM. Yeah.

但我们清楚技术发展曲线，所以我本质上想建造这座图书馆。为此需要促成ARPANET向互联网转型，让超级计算机具备搜索能力——这些并非我独自完成的。

And that so but we knew what the curves were, and so I basically wanted to build the library. To build the library, we had to get the ARPANET transition to the Internet. We need to get supercomputers to be able to do search. So I helped that out. And so this wasn't all me.

对吧？但我们有一大群人。我们一大群人都在努力让这一切运转起来。必须设法让人们看到商业潜力，这样他们才会开始在这个开放网络上发布内容，而不是LexisNexis、任天堂或CompuServe、Prodigy这些封闭系统。所以蒂姆提到的协议，其开放性至关重要——你需要一种无需许可就能加入的方式。

Right? But there were a bunch of us. There were a bunch of us trying to get this whole thing to work. Had to try to get it so that people could see the commercial potential so that they'd start publishing on this open network as opposed to the LexisNexis or the Nintendos or these CompuServe and Prodigy, these closed things. So the protocols, which is what Tim mentioned, were just so key to be open that you needed a way for to have a permissionless way of joining into this thing.

因此我们需要自由开源软件，这正是斯托曼提供的。我们需要所有这些协议和架构协同工作。等到万维网开始运行时，我们已经实现了大量内容发布。到1996年，进展已经足够顺利，我才能转向真正的目标——那个图书馆项目。

So we needed free and open source software, which Stalman delivered. And so we needed all of these protocols and structures to work. By the time we got to and the web was was running, we got a lot of publishing going. By '96, it was going well enough. I could turn to the real project, which was the library.

那才是初心。那是我1980年投身互联网时的梦想。我们需要所有这些环节都运作起来——而它确实成功了。很大程度上要归功于蒂姆这样的人，还有文特·瑟夫等如同外交官般的先驱者，他们抵制了垄断专利、大发横财的诱惑，而是致力于让所有人的创意都能开花结果。

That was the goal. That was the the dream of the Internet that I signed on to in 1980, and we needed all of these pieces to go, and it worked. It worked. And it worked large part because of, well, Tim, and there were others like Vince Cerf that were basically statesmen that basically sat out just going and making a monopoly out of it, patenting something, and making a bunch of money so you can buy a house in Atherton. So that they basically work to try to make everybody else's party happen.

所以我认为蒂姆是互联网的外交官，他毕生都在帮助他人实现创新。嗯。

So I I think of Tim as the statesman for the Internet in terms of dedicating himself to other people going out and making things happen. Mhmm.

如果我们梳理互联网的发展轨迹，您描述的那个开源、免费、非商业化的时代，短短几年后就进入了商业化阶段。快进到2010年代，我们全都生活在平台、移动应用和社交软件里。如今的互联网与您描述的时代已截然不同。您二位从不同视角出发对此都有强烈感触。

And so if we were to trace the arc of the Internet, you know, we're talking about a time that was open source, free, not commercialized. Fast forward just a few years later, the Internet becomes commercialized. Fast forward into the February and the twenty tens, we're all sort of living on platforms and in mobile apps and in social apps. And the Internet is a very, very different place than it was than the time that you are describing. You both have very strong feelings about this coming from your different perspectives.

你们反复提到的核心理念是'回归去中心化网络'，这具体意味着什么？

And one of the things you've both talked about this is this idea of bringing it back to the decentralized web. What does that mean exactly?

在座各位谁拥有自己的域名？有人注册过域名吗？

So who here has got your own domain name? Who's got a domain name?

什么？

What?

大约50%？

About 50%?

我们很多人。

A lot of us.

很多。

A lot.

如果你环顾四周，就会发现

If you look around, this is

差不多50%。

like 50%.

哦，天哪这里。

Oh, jeez here.

没错，你有了域名。当你拥有自己的域名时，就可以建立个人网站。最早那些自己建站的人，任何人都能创建网站。那时需要先注册域名，过程有点笨拙，我们稍后可以讨论域名是否需要规范管理的问题。

Right. You've got domain names. So when you get your own domain name, then you can have your own website. So originally originally that, you know, the people who built their own websites early on, anybody could make your own websites. You had to get a domain name, which was a bit clunky, and we can talk about afterwards whether the domain names have to be sort of properly managed or not.

但关键是任何人都能创建自己的网站。那种赋权感，我们现在称之为数字主权。当你在网上拥有独立身份、个人网站，能买卖商品、写作，发送邮件或参与讨论时，所有人都能看到你是谁。这里存在声誉体系机制，你的公开讨论身份会与博客等其他内容关联。

But you have to but if you but you could anybody could make your own website. And so that well, that feeling of empowerment, that feeling of we call it digital sovereignty sovereignty now. When when you're sitting there and you can be you have your own identity online, you have a website, you've got you could buy and sell things, you can write. When you send email or you contribute to a discussion, everybody can see who you are. There's a reputation system thing going on so that your identity, when you're writing discussion publicly, is tied to your blogs and it's tied to everything else.

这种体验让早期互联网用户充满乌托邦式的热情。他们以为只要人人都以文字形式出现在网络上，自然就能和谐共处。于是他们撰写了《克鲁链宣言》。而现在所有人都在脸书上——结果完全事与愿违。

So that feeling of that was it was people were not were very felt utopian about it early on in the early days of the sort of of the web. Because they thought that if everybody would appear on the internet and you just text everybody, then everybody would just get on. And so they wrote the CluChain manifesto. And and now everybody's on Facebook. And so it all went wrong.

布鲁斯正在推动的正是回归这种模式。那时的网络本质上是去中心化的，因为任何实体都能建立自己的网站。我们如何重返去中心化网络？这正是布鲁斯试图召集相关人士共同推进的项目之一。

And so what Bruce is doing is he's got this push to go back. So the web back then was decentralized because anybody in the sense of the entity could make their own website. How can we get back to the decentralized web? So that's a project, you know, really decentralizing the web is what is one of the projects that Bruce has been trying to convening people who are involved in that.

你们有Solid系统，它试图回归'数据自主权'的理念。这个系统非常关键，能否详细解释下？好的，我可以中途插话吗？当然可以。

Well, you've got a system of solid, which is sort of trying to get back to the you own your own data. Solid system is a really key idea that I think please explain. Okay. Can I step in the middle Absolutely? Of your

我在书里详细讨论过这个问题——去买书吧。SOLiD就像HTTP协议，但功能更丰富，可以说是增强版HTTP。它允许你用Solid账号登录。

So, yep, I talk about it in the book. Buy the book. So SOLiD is like a protocol, it's like HTTP, but it's got more stuff in it. So it's HTTP with knobs on. It allows you to log on with a solid ID.

不同于用脸书或谷歌账号登录——用谷歌登录会被谷歌追踪，用脸书登录会被脸书追踪。而用Solid登录时，没人能追踪你。通过Solid登录后，你就拥有了独立数字身份。

And when you unlike with if if you log you can log on with Facebook or you can log something with you can log on with Google. If you log on with Google, then Google tracks you. If you log on with Facebook, Facebook tracks you. If you log on with Solid, nobody tracks you. So when you log on with Solid, then you can have an identity.

这有点像拥有自己的网站。你有一个我们称之为数字钱包、数据钱包或Solid Pod的东西。如果你在生活中注意到，使用苹果软件时数据存储在iCloud，使用谷歌软件时存储在G drive，使用微软软件时则存储在微软云。

And it's a bit like having your own website. You have a thing called we call it digital wallet, data wallet, or a what you call it, a Solid Pod. It's a bit you know, if you ever if you noticed in your life that if you use Apple software, it stores stuff in the iCloud. And you use Google software, it stores it in the G drive. And if you use Microsoft software, it stores it in Microsoft cloud.

这一切都很好，但它们之间缺乏互操作性。而Solid运动正是致力于实现这一层面的互操作性——任何应用都应该能写入任何存储空间。你的微软软件应该能保存到iCloud，也能保存到G drive等等。

So this is all very well, but there's no interoperability between those. And the solid movement is about getting interoperability at that level. Any app should be able to write to any store. Your Microsoft software should be able to save in your iCloud. It should be able to save in your G drive and so on.

因此SOLID协议本质上是HTTP的另一种形式，由W3C的关联网络存储工作组标准化。它重塑了一个让你作为个体重获自主权的世界。

So the SOLID protocol is about it's another form of HTTP. It's standardised in WCC, in the Linked Web Storage Working Group. And it's a world in which you are re empowered as an individual.

嗯。所以在这个世界里，那些大平台并不会消失，可以这么说。但如果我们注定要使用它们，至少应该能通过像Solid这样的服务进行身份验证，同时保持你所说的隐私和数据主权。布鲁斯特，在这个时代，去中心化网络对你意味着什么？

Mhmm. So it's a world in which, you know, the the big platforms don't go away, so to speak. But if we're going to be in this world where we are using them, then at the very least, you should be able to authenticate with a service like Solid and maintain your privacy and your data sovereignty as you describe it. Brewster, what does a decentralized web, you know, mean to you in this era

的...互联网？

of Yeah. Internet?

一场多方共赢的游戏。我们能否打破那种封建式的二等公民处境——你被某种形式占有和控制，所有东西都需要授权，而实际上你本应拥有所有权？如何实现这一点？或许可以这样理解：我们见证的互联网发展轨迹，是试图冲破那些围墙花园系统，无论是Deck还是Decknet这类被掌控的体系。

A game with many winners. So can can we make it so that you're not a second class citizen under in some feudal sense, where you're sort of owned and controlled, where everything's licensed, you actually own things. Right? Can how do you make that work? So to to add maybe that sort of what's what was the arc of the of the of the Internet that I think I saw going through is we came about at a time when we're trying to bust out of these walled gardens, these these sort of systems that were kind of owned and controlled by whether it was Deck and Decknet.

对吧？后来我们有了互联网，有了这种突破大企业许可行为向外扩张的机制。于是就有了'网络空间'这个概念——这就是我们当年的表述方式。

Right? Then we had the Internet, and we had this mechanism of of having it expand outside of the license behavior of some large corporation. So there was this sort of idea of cyberspace. Right? It was sort of that was how we talked about things back in the day.

那时候的世界有点像西部荒野，对吧？起初不在太空，但现在成了蛮荒之地。那里有边疆，还挺危险的。

Then there was sort of the world the the Wild West. Right? So it started to not be in space, but it now is the Wild West. There was a frontier. It was kinda dangerous.

虽然有点意思，也有点疯狂。后来出现了信息高速公路，对吧？这就是对我们所处位置和所做之事的隐喻。

It was kinda fun. It was kinda wacky. Then there was the information superhighway. Right? So that was the metaphor for where we were and what we were doing.

你知道，那就是商业，而且将是受监管的商业，但任何人都能在信息下水道燃烧高速公路上开卡车。不像铁路那样被某个人完全控制。所以它一直在发展，对吧？用这个隐喻来描述事物如何演进。后来还出现了冲浪。

That was the, you know, commerce, and it's gonna be regulated commerce, but anybody could drive a truck on the information sewer burn highway. It wasn't the railroad where it was all controlled by somebody. So then it but it kept moving, Right? In terms of what the metaphor of how things things move along. And then there were surfing.

现在我们有点像站在这东西的顶端，对吧？冲浪意味着什么？对吧？就像是，哇哦。

So now we're sort of on top of this thing. Right? What does surfing mean? Right? It's like, wow.

好吧，你可以在里面游泳，可以潜进去。所以这个隐喻持续了一段时间。后来事情开始变得有点疯狂，出现了Facebook和博格人。

Okay. You can swim in it. You can sort of like, you can dive in. And and so that that was kind of the metaphor for a while. And then things started to turn a little wacky and we had, well, Facebook and the Borg.

对吧？对吧。它有点会接管你，占据你。感觉不像站在你这边。同时还有其他事情在发生。

Right? Right. It would sort of take take you on and take you over. And it wasn't sort of feeling like it was on your side. Then there was these other things going on.

我们又开始回到这些大型组织的掌控之下，它们控制得太多了。现在我们又有了AI，感觉最终可能又只是少数几个大赢家。为什么不让更多人成为赢家呢？让更多人能使用这些工具，为自己构建模型。

And we started to get back to these large scale organizations again, controlling way too much. So now we have AI that also feels like it may end up being just a few big winners. Why don't we make it so that there's lots of winners? Well, lots of people can use these tools. They can build models for themselves.

他们可以根据旧邮件档案与自己对话。想想看，我们能否让某些事物在没有中心化控制的情况下运作？这是可能的。事实上，追求去中心化结构的往往能取得商业成功，因为它能赋能大众。大垄断企业不喜欢这样，因为他们想掌控一切。

They can go and have chats with their with themselves based their old email archives. You know, what can we go and make some of these things work without centralized control of it? And it is possible. And in fact, those that pursue the decentralized structures often really have an uptick in commercial success because it can go and enable and empower lots of people. The big monopolies don't like it because they want to control everything.

但能否创造多方共赢的游戏？能否实现数据主权，让你不再感到被束缚？让你感觉不再被监视，可以自由创造或退守自己的世界。这就是我们早期怀抱的乐观主义与乌托邦理想，而实现它的技术依然存在，只是需要决心。

But can we go and make a game with many winners? Can we make it so that there there's data sovereignty that you don't feel like you're beholden? So you feel like you're not always being watched and you wanna go and build something or retreat into your world. That was the optimism and sort of the the utopianism that a lot of us held in the early days, and the technology is still here to build it. It does require the will.

我们已不复当年那样的政府。克林顿-戈尔时代推动美国进入这个领域的努力是真实的，那确实带来了巨大改变。如今我们不再有那样的领导力，正因为反垄断的缺失，我们正面临问题。

We don't have the same government as what we did then. The Clinton Gore world of trying to push The United States into this area was real. That actually made a big difference. We don't have that kind of leadership anymore. We actually have problems because we don't have antitrust anymore.

这些公司已膨胀到荒谬的规模。我没想到在80年代那种尚未放弃反垄断的背景下，我们会走到今天这种企业巨头垄断的局面。所以让我们创造多方共赢的游戏吧。

So these companies have grown absurdly big. I had no idea that we're going to get to these corporations at in that sort of 1980 that we hadn't given up on antitrust yet. So let's make a game with many winners.

你提到工具仍在，人们仍可构建去中心化网络，也提到有人确实通过这种方式获得财务成功。但目前的激励结构确实严重失衡。对于互联网开发者或自建平台的创作者来说，他们被激励留在大平台，因为那才是赚钱的地方。那么如何说服这些在线世界的建造者，让他们选择联邦宇宙这类不会回归中心化的平台呢？

You you know, you mentioned that the tools are still here for people to build a decentralized web, and you also mentioned that some people do manage to sort of attain financial success in doing that. But it does seem like the incentive structure is really pretty lopsided right now. And so for the developers on the Internet or the, you know, creators who build, you know, their own sort of platforms, they are incentivized to be on the big platforms because that's where they see themselves making money, essentially. So how do you convince the people kind of, you know, building worlds online that they should do it on something, you know, like a, you know, the Fedverse or something that just doesn't, know, doesn't go back to that central location.

硅谷一位互联网名人说'竞争是输家游戏'，这算什么话？思科通过开放TCP/IP环境创造了出色业务，这个环境允许竞争。整个互联网和.com浪潮正是由那些精通协议的人们相互竞争推动的。

A prominent Internet figure in Silicon Valley says competition is for losers. It's like, what? So I Cisco made a really good business by going and making open an environment TCPIP which you could compete with. Right? That there was there was a whole swash, the the Internet and .com boom was made up of competition between people that knew how to do protocols and they could go and always try to outcompete each other.

这才是商业世界保持活力的方式，也是推动创新的方式，让人们不会感到被锁定。这样运作效果更好。当然，如果能成为垄断者——商学院大概会教这个——但这不是经营行业或文化的正确方式。

That's how you make vibrancy in the commercial world work. It's also how you make innovation go and you make it so that people don't feel locked in. It just works better. So yes, if you can be a monopoly, I guess, you know, your business schools, they do that. But it's not the right way to run an industry or a culture.

因此我认为，我们可以尝试基于协议而非平台来重振自我，共同构建一个更好的互联网。

And so I think that we can try to reinvigorate ourselves based on protocols, not platforms, to go and build a better Internet.

嗯。Tim So，你是否认为政府需要以反垄断的方式介入，来替代我们进行拆分？

Mhmm. Tim So do you think that the government then needs to step in with antitrust in order to break up these in our place?

阻止企业相互收购比拆分它们要容易得多。而我们往往等待太久，导致缺乏主题性。我认为这些监管措施给人的感觉是腐败且执行不力。所以...是的，我认为我们需要更多政治家。

It's a lot easier to to prevent things from buying each other than it is to break them up. And often we wait too long, and it doesn't have a theme. And it feels that the regulations, I think, are coming across as corrupt, not well implemented. So we're yeah. So I think we need some more statesmen.

请培养新一代人才，让他们能够关注生态系统的发展——无论是在政府、标准组织、技术领域还是我们的企业中。

Please bring up another generation of people that can look after the development of an ecosystem, both in government, in the standards bodies, in the technology, and in our companies.

这其实正是我想问你的问题，Tim。Brewster今晚多次恰如其分地称你为政治家。以你的能力和远见，本可以像住在富豪街的人那样生活，现在可能已经拥有自己的风投公司并投资众多初创企业。但你却始终保持着支持网络健康的角色。除了树立杰出榜样外，你认为该如何说服年轻一代互联网建设者承担这样的角色，成为政治家而不仅仅追求赚钱？

That's actually what I was gonna I'm going to ask you, Tim, which is, you know, Brewster has rightfully called you a statesman many times tonight. And you are someone who with your, you know, your your abilities and and your vision could be someone who's like living on billionaire's row. And and, you know, probably have your own venture capital firm by now and funding lots of startups. But you I mean, you have maintained your role as someone who is, you know, here to sort of support the health of the web. How do you think I mean, aside from just being a stunning example, how do you think you convince the younger generation of of Internet builders to actually take on roles like that, to be statesmen and not to just look to make a buck?

你看，世界上有些人毕生致力于建设更美好的世界。他们有的为非营利组织工作，有的为自己奋斗。虽然这类人可能凤毛麟角——或许你该在观众中再做次调查。但我想说的是，与我共事的人，那些参加Brewster或去中心化网络组织活动的人，都对建设更美好世界充满热情。他们未必总能看清实现路径，但了解其中某些环节，并乐于为之付出努力。

Well, when you look at the, you know, there are people out there who spend their lives trying to build a better world. Some of them work for nonprofits, some of them work for themselves. And so they may be sort of few and far between if you maybe should have another poll in the audience. But what I say is that is when the people that I'm working with, the people that come to Brewster or organisations, events, for example, about the centralized web, they're all passionate about building a better world. They don't always feel that they can see a path from here to there, but they know pieces of it, and they're happy to put effort into building pieces of it.

所以对我来说，所有这些人为建设更美好世界各自努力的精神实在令人惊叹，这也正是非常激励人心的地方。

So the spirit of that is, for me, of all those people trying to build a better world individually is really an amazing thing, and that's why that's that's very motivating.

蒂姆，是什么促使你写这本书？为什么是现在？我们不知道你是否提到过，但

Tim, what drove you to write this book and why now? Did we don't know if you mentioned, but

抱歉，蒂姆写的上一本书是在1999年，那是很久以前了。从那以后几十年过去了。我认为部分原因是讲述这几十年的故事，但更重要的是，它表达了我们今晚要说的——存在一个生活因网络而更美好的世界，存在一个因我们建设而更美好的人类世界。书中最后部分有关于描绘世界图景的章节，我想勾勒出我心目中理想世界的模样。

sorry, Tim wrote The last the last book was 1999, so that was a long time ago. So so decades have happened since then. I think so partly it's telling the story of those decades, but also more importantly, it's saying what we're saying tonight. There is a world in which life is the web is better. There is a world in which humanity is better because we've built and so the last piece of it, so there's chapters about painting pictures of the world, and I want to sort of paint the pictures of what the world the way I would like it to be.

即便朝着那个方向前进看似非常艰难，但我认为人们会真心欣赏这幅描绘可能截然不同世界的图景。如何抵达那里属于未来。当然，在AI飞速变革的当下，预测未来极其困难。但本书的创作动机之一，正是要描绘一幅更乐观的未来图景。

And even if it's seemed really hard to actually go in that direction, I think people really appreciate the fact that there's a picture painted of a world where it could be different. How we get there is in the future. What happens in the future, of course, with AI changing so fast, it's very, very hard to pick to to but a lot of motivation from the book, for writing the book, was to paint the picture, a more optimistic picture of the future.

我必须承认目前只读了部分内容，但确实很棒。听你回顾早年经历，你似乎命中注定要成为计算机时代的传奇发明家。你与史蒂夫·乔布斯和比尔·盖茨同年出生，这点我之前不知道。你父母认识艾伦·图灵，可惜你未能结识他，因为他在你出生前一年去世了。

I've only been able to read part of your book so far, I have to admit, but it's very good. And it sounds like, in recounting your early life, you were kind of predestined, you know, to to be this legendary inventor of the computer age. You were born the same year as Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, which I hadn't known before. Your parents knew Alan Turing. Unfortunately, you did not have the opportunity to know him because he died the year before you were born.

你说从小就知道计算机能帮助记录事物，但当时它们还无法像人脑那样随机联想和建立关联——这些早期思考后来成为你构想万维网的基础。如今我们生活在AI不仅为我们建立连接，更替我们思考的世界。你们两位——布鲁斯特，我们后台也聊过这个——当时是否预感到这就是我们正在构建的AI？

And you said that from a young age, you knew you understood that computers were something that could help you kind of record things, but they weren't yet replicating the the human brain or the human memory in the way that we make random associations and connect things, which was kind of your the, you know, formative thoughts for you thinking about the the web. Now we're living in this world where AI is basically not only connecting things for us, but doing the thinking for us. Did either of you and, Brewster, we were talking about this a little bit backstage too. Did either of you have a sense back then that this was the AI that we were building towards?

我想说，早期我父母在英国建造第一台计算机时，正是艾伦·图灵定义计算机本质的时期。他们探讨计算机能做什么、不能做什么，最初就在追问：它能拥有智能吗？能否通过编程实现智能？图灵经常论述如何判断智能的问题。

I think well, early on, my parent, you know, they met building the first computer in The UK, and they were Alan Turing was defining what a computer was. You know, what can a computer do and what can it not do? And early on, they were saying, can it be intelligent? Can we you know, they were wondering whether they could program the can we just say it had there to be intelligent? And know, and Turing talked a lot about, you know, what how would you tell?

图灵测试就是用来判断某物是否具有智能——比如是否有意识。这个始于图灵追问计算机本质的思想脉络，如今随着GPT的出现突然变得清晰：我们有了明显具备智能的计算机程序，这令人震撼，甚至让研发团队都感到震惊。

How would you, what would the Turing test is to tell if something is intelligent or not? So is it conscious or not, for example. So that, those, that arc, I think, that started with Alan Turing asking what the computer really was, whether we're asking whether computers were problems. So that arc seems to now, which had GPT, suddenly, wow, we have a computer program which is very clearly intelligent, which is sort of which is, I think, staggering. It was staggering even for the people working people working on it.

他们没想到，我觉得，ChatGPT如此高效。现在我们手头已经有了一大堆类似的东西。

They didn't expect, I think, ChatGPT is so effective. So now we and now we've got a whole bunch of things like that.

但所有这些理念呢？绝对是的。那些曾在MIT激励我们的东西，比如《全球大脑》这本书，还有Vannevar Bush提出的Memex——实际上我们甚至还没触及他在1945年那篇论文中提出的心灵感应接口。Ted Nelson的仙那度计划，超文本概念。

But the idea of all of this? Absolutely. So the things that were inspiring to us at MIT some of those times, you know, there was the book Global Brain. There was the Memex by Vannevar Bush, which laid out actually, we haven't even gotten to the telepathic interfaces that he put out in this paper in 1945. Ted Nelson's Xanadu, the the concept of hypertext.

我们早就在计算机世界承诺过要把国会图书馆搬到你桌上。但我们没做到，真的没做到。当时觉得这能有多难？结果比我想象的困难得多。

We basically already in the computer world had promised the Library of Congress on your desk. And we hadn't we hadn't delivered. We hadn't delivered. And it was like, how hard could that be? And turned out to be a lot harder than I thought it would be.

但我们转而开始建造思维机器。我们称之为思维机器。就是要打造一台能思考的机器。Danny Hill说过，我们想造一台会以我们为荣的机器。

But we went off to then build thinking machines. We called it thinking machines. And it was to go and build a Machine. Thinking machine. You know, Danny Hill has said we wanted to build a machine that would be proud of us.

我们清楚这点——我挺喜欢这种挑衅性说法。所以我们知道必须造出足够有趣的东西，让人们愿意与之互动并教导它。如果你觉得AI是2022年随着ChatGPT才出现的，那就像你说的，只要用过谷歌，其实几十年来你一直在用AI。谷歌地图这些全是AI，就是那种模糊匹配、海量数据、基于记忆的推理——80年代中期我和David Waltz研究数字识别时就这么称呼它。

We knew that which I kinda love that sort of provocative thing. And so we knew we needed to build something that was interesting enough to have people interact with it and teach it. And so it was and if you think that, oh, AI happened in 2022 with ChatGPT, it's like, if you've used Google ever, you've been using AI for decades. If you as you point out, Google Maps, all this stuff is AI. It's these sort of fuzzy matching, lots of data, memory based reasoning is what David Waltz and I called it when we were doing how do you go and recognize digits back in the mid eighties.

所以关键在于如何利用海量数据而非精巧的小算法，对吧？这些在当时算是另辟蹊径。但我们清楚自己要构建什么。真正改变我的是监管机构的失职，以及企业过度利用技术来榨取更多金钱、权力和控制——结果是否如我所料呢？

So all the sort of how do you use large amounts of data as opposed to a smart tiny algorithm. Right? Those were sort of the the counters back in that day. But we knew what we were trying to build. The things that that built change for me is the regulatory bailing on on their jobs and corporations taking way too much advantage of what it is they find they can do to try to eke out more money and more power and more control than I think that we so did it come out quite how I thought?

我以为我们正在构建一些有趣的东西。它需要掌握大量知识，这是我们成功的唯一途径。几个世纪积累的材料库、通讯档案，人们不会回头去翻阅——我们尝试过建立索引结构。

I thought we were building along some things that would be interesting. It needs to know a lot. It's the only way that we're going to make it. So these libraries that we've built over centuries of materials, of newsletters, and people aren't going to go in back and find them. I mean, we've tried indexing structures.

我们尝试过卡片目录，尝试过全文检索，都很困难。这些AI技术能让我们利用数百年的农业记录来预测气候变化和害虫演变。我们的图书馆拥有这些数据，现在也掌握了应对气候变化或健康问题所需的工具。

We've tried the card catalogs. We've tried all we've tried full text search. It's tough. These AI things can make it so that we can use all of the centuries of of agricultural records to try to understand what's gonna happen to the climate as it moves, as pests evolve. We have the data in our libraries, and we have the tools now to try to make some of the changes that we need to to deal with climate change or health issues.

所以我觉得这实际上很鼓舞人心——我们能更好地激活这些知识。嗯。但必须确保不只是少数大玩家参与其中。

So I I find it actually encouraging that we can bring all of this knowledge to even better life. Mhmm. But we've got to do it in a way where there are more than just a few big players.

嗯，你们在这方面处境很有趣，因为互联网档案馆的存在不仅能让信息得以保存，还能自由流通，让人们都能获取。我记得去年参加互联网档案馆一个关于作者权的活动，主题是'作者权时代的道德恐慌'。我原以为会听到一堆作者抱怨OpenAI抓取他们的书籍等等，结果这些人却说'不，我想要所有信息'，这让我觉得太有意思了。但实际上，那些真正强大的公司——我们都知道你指的是谁——才是攫取所有免费信息的人。

Well, you're kind of in an interesting position in that way because of the fact that the Internet archive exists so that information can not only be preserved, but flow freely, that it's accessible to people. And I remember last year going to an event at the Internet Archive that was about authorship, moral panic in the age of authorship. And I went expecting that there were going to be a bunch of authors complaining about OpenAI, scraping their books, and etcetera. And it turns out that these folks are, no, I want all the information And out I thought, this is so fascinating to me. But what's happened actually is, know, these really powerful corporations, and we all know who you're referring to, you know, they're the ones who are taking all of that free information.

回想当年讨论AI时，问题是数据不足。现在数据有了，却只被最强大的实体抓取利用。这要怎么平衡呢？

So back in the day when you were thinking about AI, the problem was there wasn't enough data. Now there is data, and actually, it's just being scraped and it's used by the most powerful entities. So how do you sort of how do you square those those

唉，这真是个难题。互联网档案馆本是为解决这类问题而建。但监管体系...美国现在诉讼满天飞，导致档案馆很多资料无法提供给这些实体。而且你也提到它们会出现幻觉问题。

Oh, such a problem. The Internet Archive is designed for this. Yet, the regulatory structures, we just have lawsuits happening in the in The United States just out the wazoo. So a lot of the materials that the Internet Archive has are not available to these entities. And, you know, you're talking about they were hallucinating.

是啊，因为它们是用网络垃圾喂养大的。如果我们不用已知最好的知识培养下一代，就会得到应得的一代。这已经在谷歌时代发生了——现在居然有人对犹太大屠杀是否真实存在都搞不清楚。

Yeah. Because they're brought up on a bunch of web stuff. And so if we don't bring up the next generation on the with the best we have known, we're going to get the generation we deserve. And that's happening. That's already happened in the age of Google where we have people really confused about whether the Holocaust happened.

我们基本剥夺了这一代人接触我成长时期图书馆的权利，这毫无道理。现在美国诉讼不断，欧洲也因各种冲突陷入停滞。我在想，如果我们能获得CERN、MIT这类大型公共机构的荣誉和支持，能否打造出公共AI？

We have basic we we've denied this generation access to the library I grew up with, which doesn't make any sense. So it's there's just lawsuits here. Europe, it's kinda stalled around also conflicts. So I think we if we had a little bit more, we both had the honor and the support of things like CERN or MIT or these other large scale public entities. Can we build public AI?

我们能否构建一个AI系统及模型，让我们放心让孩子与之交谈。我们能做到。这并不难，但需要思维上的一些转变，或许认为你能在公共领域做些有益公众、保持透明的事这种想法有些复古。互联网档案馆比那些大型AI公司拥有更多数据。他们都想要我们的数据。

Can we build an AI thing and sets of models that are things we'd be happy to have our children chat with. We can do this. It isn't that hard, but it requires a little change in thinking, and maybe it's a little retro to think that you can actually do things in the public sphere that would be publicly good, that you'd be transparent about it. So the Internet Archive has more data in it than the big AI companies. They all want our data.

但由于这些结构性问题，我们不能把数据交给他们。如果不解决这些问题，我们最终只能得到平庸的工具。所以让我们建立一个赢家生态系统吧。

And but and but we can't give it to them because of these structural problems. And if we don't solve them, we're going to end up with tools that are mediocre. So let's build an ecosystem of winners.

蒂姆，你对此有何看法？你对'公共AI'这个概念怎么看？

Tim, what are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on the idea of a public AI?

我喜欢布鲁斯围绕图书馆展开的辩论方式。AI需要数据来发展，数据对AI至关重要。ChatGPT之所以令人印象深刻，正是因为它基本上是在整个互联网上训练的——按照某种定义的全网数据。

So the I like the way Bruce debates it over the library. So AI has developed data. Data is crucial for the AI. Reason the chat DVD was so impressive was that it's trained on the entire web, basically. The entire web by some definition.

但现在有趣的是，你可以通过将现有事物数字化来为图书馆增添数据，比如把78转黑胶唱片数字化。你可以获取图书馆外的资料，将其转化为数据。借助AI，现在你甚至能把PDF文件、手写笔记等内容都转化为坚实可靠的数据。这种让AI生产数据，再由强大的图书馆将这些数据呈现出来，并在数据上运行更多AI的模式——

So what's interesting now though is that there is you can add data to the library by taking existing things out there for, you know, you could digitise 78 RPM records. You can take stuff which is outside the library. You can turn it into data. You can take stuff which is in, you know, now with AI, you can take stuff which is all in PDFs and scribbled notes and things, and now with AI you can turn that into hard, solid data. And so that, this model of having sort of AIs producing data, which is then surfaced in a library, the library being very powerful and running more AI on the data.

就是这个模式。

That's the model.

你们两位是如何使用生成式AI的？

How are both of you using generative AI?

我是说，我用ChatDuty来咨询代码问题。当你遇到编程难题时它特别有用，真的很方便。

I mean, I use ChatDuty for asking questions about code. It's when you were stuck with a coding problem. It's really neat.

你现在还在积极编程吗？

Are you still actively coding?

是啊，是啊。调整一下图书巡讲。

Yeah, but Yeah. Modulate the book tour.

是啊。你编程时会称之为氛围编程吗？我不这么认为。就是...不是的。

Yeah. Do you call it vibe coding when you code? I don't think so. It's just it's No.

我就是写代码。对吧？对。借助AI辅助。是的。

I just code. Right? Yeah. With with AI assistance. Yes.

哦，它简直太有用了。我是说那些生成式AI工具。我并不把它看作娱乐产品或AI竞争者，而是日常工作的帮手。你可以向它提问，它能很好地完成初步调研工作。

Oh, it's fantastically useful. I mean, the generative AI things. And I I don't think of it as an entertainment product or a competitor for AI. It's to help, you know, just day to day moving through. You can ask it questions, and it can do sort of that first level of research project pretty well.

好的。我们确实一直在用它处理各种事务，但我想了解更多。互联网档案馆的部分藏品是开放的，比如某些网页（如所有政府网页）、1929年前的古籍等。很多科学家选择开放资源而非受制于出版商。我们尽可能让资源可获取，但距离理想状态还差很远。

Okay. So, yeah, but I think we're using it all the time for all sorts of things, but I wanted to know more. So the Internet Archives collections, some of them are open, like some of the web pages, like all the government web pages and all that sort of thing, or the old books like pre 1929 books, those are open. There are a lot of scientists that choose to be open and not go for the the publisher issues. So we try to make things as available as we can, but we're way short on the sorts of things that we that we know.

我理解你提到的是某些人工智能。我们已经将诸如神秘海港捕鲸任务的船舶日志等资料数字化——那是你的家乡。这些全是手写记录。这些跨越数个世纪的气象记录原本难以解读，若让研究生手动录入会耗费大量时间。但现在这些海量信息已作为数据集重获新生，既能为我们提供参考依据，又保留了可追溯的原始凭证，让我们能明确推导出结论。

I you're talking about some of the AI. So we've digitized things like the ship logs from whaling missions with the Mystic Seaport, which is your home state. And those are all handwritten. And but those are weather records over centuries that have really been impenetrable, or you'd basically waste a graduate student for a long time going in and typing this stuff in. But we can now see these broad swaths of information come to life as datasets that can help inform us and still have the provenance to go and say, I think this because of that.

对吧？必须确保系统有效运作。我认为我们能打造公共人工智能，通过整合图书馆系统的网络资源、人力规模与计算能力来释放其潜力——这种组合正是互联网真正实现的可能。我们只需确保人们仍愿意参与其中，而不是感到被压榨、虐待或排斥，更不必告诫孩子远离网络。早期的互联网确实是建立在信任基础上的。

Right? And make sure it works. And so I think we can build public AI. I think we can go and and unleash the power of the of the library system by marrying the networks, the number of people involved, and the computational resources, that that is the sort of combination that the Internet is really making possible, and we just need to have people still want to participate and not feel shafted and abused and driven out and, you know, don't let your children get on the Internet. I mean, all of that, the Internet in the earlier days was really built on trust.

我们以域名服务为例。这项本可被滥用的技术，如今在欧洲正被用来审批企业准入——这家公司允许运营，那家不行。这就像筑起了一道小型数字长城。

And so we take the domain name service. That's able to be abused, and it's being abused now in Europe to go and say this company is allowed. This is not. You know? It's being used as a mini great wall of China.

我们正目睹互联网的巴尔干化，权势集团开始筑起真实的高墙。因此我们需要重建一种能让彼此互动而不感到被剥削的交流方式。嗯。

We're seeing a balkanization of the Internet where things are starting to real walls are being put up by the powerful. So I think we need to get back to a way for us to interact with each other in such a way that we're not feeling taken advantage of. Mhmm.

嗯。我们稍后将进入观众提问环节，但我还有几个问题想请教两位。蒂姆，对你而言超级智能意味着什么？你认为我们已接近实现它了吗？

Mhmm. I think we're going to get to audience questions soon, but I do have just a couple more questions I would like to ask you both. Tim, what is what does superintelligence mean to you? And do you think we're close to it?

在我看来，超级智能意味着比我更聪明的存在。如果人类造出比自己更聪明的造物，从逻辑上说确实需要谨慎对待。哲学层面上，我认为超级智能必须受到约束。我知道对此存在各种观点：有人认为超级智能短期内根本不可能实现；也有人认为计算机根本不可能产生超级智能，因为真正的超级智能只能源于神经元层面的脑力活动；还有人声称几个月内就能造出超级智能。我的立场介于这些观点之间。

So to me, superintelligence means intelligence which is smarter something smarter than me. So basically, if somebody builds something which is smarter than them, then logically, yeah, I think you have to be careful because, you know, there's some people so so philosophically, I feel that superintelligence is something that we need will need to be contained. So I I know people out there are long way along the spectrum for people who think superintelligence isn't just isn't gonna happen for a very long time, or the idea of superintelligence from a computer is really a contradiction in terms because really can only there are people who think that you can only get superintelligence at this at a certain level from brain from neurons. And there are people who feel that superintelligence is something which they're likely to build in the next few months. And so I'm sort of on the spectrum there.

我认为几个月内不可能实现，但我非常期待出现类似欧洲核子研究中心那样的大型公共人工智能项目。CERN的建立是为让全球共同安全地解决核能问题，并以国际科学合作的方式共享所有知识——我曾在那里工作，非常欣赏这种模式。

I feel I don't think it's gonna happen in a few months, but I think that I'd I'd love it if there's some big public AI process out there. So something like, CERN was good. CERN I enjoyed working at CERN. CERN was set up in order to allow the world to solve the problem of creating nuclear power. And they without in a way that was going to be safe and in a way that was shared all the knowledge across all of science internationally.

欧洲核子研究中心是个非常棒的地方。有人举手吗？有人去过吗？对，还挺多的。

The CERN was a great great place. Has anybody hands up. Anybody been to CERN? Yeah. Quite a lot.

有几个。有几个。非常酷。所以，是的，欧洲核子研究中心是个好地方。如果你在欧洲，那值得一游。

A few. A few. Very cool. So so, yeah, CERN's a neat place. If you find yourself in Europe, then it's a good place to visit.

我认为，为人工智能建立一个类似欧洲核子研究中心的机构会很有意思。

Something like CERN for AI would be, I think, neat.

这个想法很有趣。上周末我在加州大学伯克利分校参加了一个名为'The Curve'的会议，全是关于人工智能的，采用查塔姆宫规则。所以不能透露具体谁说了什么，但我听到一个有趣的理论，认为近期的混乱可能只是一群笨拙的AI代理到处跑腿替我们办事，而不是什么大规模超级智能。因为最近也有很多关于代理型AI接管我们互联网体验的讨论。你怎么看？

That's an interesting idea. I was I was at a conference at U Berkeley last weekend called The Curve, which is was all about AI, it was all Chatham House rules. So can't really say, like, who said what, but I heard this interesting theory floated that that the near future chaos could just be a bunch of hapless AI agents running around doing our bidding for us rather than, you know, some large scale superintelligence. You know, because there's been a lot of talk about agentic AI sort of taking over our our Internet experience too. What are your thoughts on that?

你对代理将如何改变网络有什么看法？

What are your thoughts on how agents are going to transform, you know, the web?

嗯，改变世界。拥有一个能为你工作的代理正是AI的发展方向。它会改变网络，就像现在人们倾向于向AI提问而不是搜索引擎。这意味着如果他们问AI而不是搜索引擎，就看不到搜索结果列表，也不会点击链接。不点击链接就无法到达那些通过广告或订阅奖励创作者的页面。

Well, transform the world. So we having an agent that can that can work for you is, yeah, is where AI is going. And so and so, yeah, it'll be it'll transform the web in the sense that just like with current AI, people don't people tend to go and ask AI a question instead of going out to your search engine question. And that means if they ask the AI question instead of the search engine, then they don't get that list of search engine results back, and they don't click on links. When they don't click on links, then they don't get to the all the they don't get to those pages which reward the creators with advertising or subscriptions and so on.

所以，确实存在一种担忧，人们会直接用AI而不用搜索引擎。如果不当心，整个基于广告收入的网络机制可能会崩溃。

So, basically, yes, there is a concern that people just use AI instead of using search engines. You know, the whole mechanism of of revenue ad based revenue for the web kinda crumble crumbles if you're not careful.

对此有什么看法吗，布鲁斯特？

Any thoughts on that, Brewster?

那么超级智能或者说AI究竟会走向何方？我认为技术是延伸人类能力的工具。至少在初期阶段，人们总有种担忧——它可能会脱离我们掌控，变成天网系统那样的存在，甚至彻底关闭人类。这种情况或许会发生。但在那之前，会存在一个技术单纯强化既得利益者权力的阶段。

So the superintelligence or sort of where is AI? I think of technology as extending the arms of humans. At at least at first, you know, there's sort of this idea that it's all gonna sort of detach from us and become Skynet and sort of turn us all off or whatever. But and that may happen. But there's gonna be a period of time when it's really just extending the power of the powerful.

如果我们不够谨慎，它确实会为现有权力结构提供超级动力——无论是让企业获得更强执行力（他们现在把员工称为‘代理人’，实则想要的是百万计的工具人），还是让军方得以强化战力（就像朋友说的‘以一敌百的战争’，何不直接部署带人脸识别功能的自爆无人机？）

And if we're not careful, it will really superpower the existing power structures, whether it's corporations being able to do more things. So their agents, they have agents, they call employees now, but they just want minions of millions of minions. So we'll that's a problem. The military will also leverage oh, as one friend points at the war on one. So why not just have drones that can do facial recognition and blow themselves up?

这种技术能以极低成本实现大规模杀伤——只需几百美元的中国产硬件设备。我们将目睹军队变得更加军国主义化，企业则会更彻底地执行商学院灌输的那套逻辑，而这些进程都将被机器增强。那么我们该如何扭转这种态势呢？嗯。

That could be really effective at mass scale with things that cost a couple $100 of Chinese hardware that exists. So we are so the mill I think we'll see the military become more militaristic and we'll see corporations become more like what they're programmed to become in business school. And it will be augmented and helped by these machines. So how do we change that dynamic? Mhmm.

必须意识到我们亟需遏制财富不平等。要分散权力，防止控制权过度集中在少数人手中——这很困难，尤其不符合美国当前的发展趋势。

Is realize that we really need to try to keep down wealth inequality. We need to go and distribute power. We need to try to keep spikes in control away from the levers of power. So that's not easy. That's not the current trend in The United States.

能做到吗？完全可以。这些工具仍由我们掌控。事实上，旧金山湾区正在展开相关讨论。

Is it doable? It is doable. These are tools that we can use. We're still in charge. And actually, this is happening conversation's happening in San Francisco.

变革的齿轮已在百英里内转动。我们仍能重塑未来让更多人受益——主动权还在我们手中。让我们抓住这个优势吧。嗯。

It's within a 100 miles of gear. So we actually can do a lot towards reshaping future to have more winners. It it's up to us still. Let's take let's take the advantage. Mhmm.

那么，Tim，对此有什么最终想法吗？或许可以从你的书中分享一些内容，因为你的书在这个疯狂的世界里传递了一种乐观的基调。

And, Tim, any final thoughts on that? Perhaps something from your book since your book strikes a note of optimism in this crazy world.

为什么选择乐观？是的。我想...呃...对。在书中，我解释了自己长期从事非营利组织工作，但最终决定应该创办、应该联合创立一家公司。所以书中讲述了我是如何与John Bruce共同创立Interrupt的。

So why optimism? Yes. I think the the so so yeah. The book in the book, I explain how I was doing nonprofits for a long time, and but then I eventually decided that I should start I should cofound a company. So it talks about how with John Bruce, I cofounded Interrupt.

长期参与非营利组织和学术团体后，能在一家可以自主决策并执行的公司工作真的很棒。这是一段非常独特的经历。Interrupt正在构建一个颠覆性的、与Solid兼容的服务器系统，它具有可扩展性和安全性，并运行着多个数据钱包。例如在佛兰德斯地区，当地政府正将其用作政府与公民之间的接口。所以本书最后一章名为《春之迹象》。

And so the and so it's been really neat having been part of nonprofits and academic groups for a long time, to be in a in a company where you could just decide what to do and execute it. So so that's been so that has been a neat a neat experience. The what Interrupts is doing is building, But it's built a subversion of solid solid compatible server, is scalable and secure and and is running a bunch of data wallets. And for example, in Flanders, there's the Flanders government is using it to as an interface between the government and the citizens. So the last chapter of the book is called Signs of Spring.

因为我注意到世界上仍有一些充满生机与希望的事物。嗯...对...所以...这就是我的...呃...观点。

And because I noticed that there are a few things out there which are which are green and hopeful. Mhmm. And and so yep. So that's I that's why my yeah.

听起来我们的核心收获是：人类依然掌握主导权，技术只是我们的延伸。如果你有强烈意愿，就创办公司来让互联网和网络变得更好。偶尔使用ChatGPT也没问题——这就是我从你们两位这里得到的启示。

So it sounds like our takeaways are that we are still in charge as humans. The technology is an extension of us. Build a company, if you feel strongly about it, to in making the Internet and the web a better place. And it's okay to use ChatuchiBT once in a while too is what I'm gathering from you both.

挺酷的。

Kinda awesome.

好的。我们现在准备回答几个观众提问，Gerald会负责朗读这些问题。

Okay. I think we're going to take a few audience questions, and Gerald is going to be reading them.

确保我的麦克风状态良好。我们收到了很多优质提问。虽然无法全部回答，但会尽量挑选其中一些特别好的。我先向全体专家小组提一个问题，大家可以随时加入讨论。

Make sure my mic is on great. We got lots of good questions. We ain't gonna get to them all, but we'll try to get to some of the really good ones. Let me start off with a question that would to the whole panel. I think you can chime in.

有人说政府有能力切断互联网。这种现象在全球范围内正变得越来越频繁。随着世界变得更加专制，我们个人层面能采取什么措施来应对？

Someone says government has the ability to turn off the Internet. That is happening more frequently around the world. As the world becomes more authoritarian, what can we do at the individual level to counter that?

是的。这是个问题。确实如此。在其他国家——你可以将其定义为专制国家的地方——互联网正被关闭。比如选举来临时，他们就会用这种方式断网，我猜是这样。

Yes. This is a problem. Yes. It is getting turning it's getting turned off in in other countries where you can define them to what is an authoritarian country. It's one way they turn the Internet off when the election comes on, I suppose.

我想这确实是个问题。

I guess it's a problem.

要记住，做这些事的人都认为自己的行为是正确的。我们可能不认同他们。对吧？当中国屏蔽互联网档案馆、《纽约时报》、YouTube、Facebook等平台时，他们觉得这是正确的。或者当互联网艺术内容和基础设施被各种胡乱干预时——我认为这完全不当且应该用截然不同的方式处理。

Remember that for any of these things, there are people that think that what they're doing is right. We may not agree with them. Right? But when China blocked the Internet Archive, The New York Times, you know, YouTube, Facebook, whatever it is, from the Chinese population, they thought it was the right thing. Or I don't know when there's been all sorts of messing around with the art with the Internet and the infrastructure of the Internet that I think is absolutely improper and should be handled very differently.

因为他们开始利用中间渠道，而非真正去调查并宣告'你的行为违法'，并切实执行这项艰难工作。他们只是操纵域名服务，在国家层面采取行动，在你看不见的暗箱法庭里操作，随意封禁内容，甚至操控本国企业而不走法律程序。我认为这才是真正的问题所在。

Because they're starting to use intermediaries as opposed to actually going and saying, what you're doing is against the law, and actually doing the hard work of doing that. And they're just they're using the domain name service. They're doing things at the country level. They're doing things in these blind courts that you don't even see, and they're just blocking things and blank and they're mutating their own companies and pushing them around without using the processes of law. And that I find is the is the real problem out there.

嗯。所以，如果你仅仅因为不喜欢某类公司就冻结其银行账户，为什么不直接追究这些公司本身的问题呢？毕竟他们行为不当。

Mhmm. And so, yeah, if you just take away the bank accounts for, you know, the the type of company you don't like, I mean, why not actually go after the companies because they're not doing the right thing?

我们有几个关于去中心化网络概念的问题。你能再详细讲讲吗？我在想，为什么

We have several questions around this concept of the decentralized web. Could you say a little bit more about that? And I thought, well, why are

你觉得我们差不多触及到了。

you think we kinda hit that.

确实。但我认为这对人们来说还是有些抽象。对吧？我是说嗯。好的。

We did. But I think it's still something that's a little bit abstract for folks. Right? I mean Mhmm. Okay.

我觉得

I think

也许让我试着解释几点。好的。去中心化网络有其原则，有多种可能的实现方式。一种是让网站不必托管在云端。你能为网络构建一个点对点的后端吗？

Maybe let me try a couple of these things. Yeah. So the decentralized web has some principles to it, and there's a bunch of different potential implementations. So one is to have websites that don't have to be hosted on some cloud based thing. Can you make a peer to peer back end for the web?

就是能否在后端建立一个类似BitTorrent的系统，让访问网站的人帮助保存并提供给其他人，使其持续传播和保存。这是个难题，但希望这样解释能清楚些。这是人们构建去中心化网络的尝试之一。另一种更像Solid，我知道Solid面前坐着蒂姆·伯纳斯-李。好的。

So can you make a BitTorrent type thing on the back end so the people who read a website help preserve it and offer it to other people, so it keeps moving and being preserved. That's a hard topic, but it's hopefully, that's got to clear. That's one of the processes that people are trying to build a decentralized web. Another is more like Solid, where Solid I know I'm sitting in front of with Tim Tim Berners Lee here. Okay.

如果你有应用程序，比如日历应用可以与数据存储分离。现在我们把它们绑在一起，这就有问题，因为掌控你日历的人权力过大。如果你的日历数据存在你信任的地方，而应用来自某家公司呢？这就是另一种形式的去中心化。还有一种是在更多地方创建更多副本。

Is if you have the applications, like your calendar app would be separate from where your data lives. Right now, we've put them together, and that's a problem because there's too much control for somebody who owns your calendar. What if your calendar data lived in something that you trusted, but the app came from some company. So that's another form of decentralization. Another is to just start to make more copies of things in more in more places.

所以互联网档案馆现在有了加拿大互联网档案馆，一个独立的图书馆，拥有部分内容的副本。欧洲互联网档案馆则根据当地价值观和结构保存了适宜内容的部分副本。实际上，埃及亚历山大也拥有部分副本用于长期保存和开放获取。这种去中心化理念可以体现在这些大型集群中，也可以采用点对点模式。

So the Internet Archive now has there's now Internet Archive Canada, a separate library, and has a partial copy. Internet Archive Europe has a partial copy of the things that are appropriate within the values and the structures of those places. Alexandria, Egypt, for real, has a partial copy to go and preserve and make available over time. So the idea of decentralization can be in these large clumps. It can be peer to peer.

它可以通过这些架构实现，但就在你的浏览器里——你甚至可以运行一个相当于十年前麦金塔电脑性能的完整虚拟机。浏览器运行的JavaScript本身就是台计算机，所以你不需要服务器，完全不需要。你的浏览器能直接与其他人的浏览器通信，根本不需要任何所谓的云端服务——或者说，这才是真正的'云'，而非他们口中的'云端'（那其实只是别人的电脑）。

It can be in these architectures, but it's in your browser, you can actually run a whole virtual machine that's as sophisticated as a ten year old Macintosh. So your browser runs JavaScript that is a computer, so you don't need a server. You don't need the server. And your browser can talk to other people's browsers, and you don't need a cloud based anything. Or maybe maybe it really is a cloud unlike what they, you know, call a cloud, which really means somebody else's computers.

那么我们能否深入探讨如何实现这些构想？要开发出真正好用的软件——它得能正常运行，开源是一种可能但非必需。完全可以存在营利但不剥削的商业模式。

So can we go on so how can we go and take some of these and drill all the way in, make it so that they that it's software that doesn't stink. Right? It works, that it's open source is one potential, but it doesn't have to be. You can have things that are for profit yet not exploitative.

嗯。举个更具体的社交媒体例子：如果你使用那个改名叫X的前推特平台，就等于在使用世界首富的服务器。你对数据去向、内容审核规则、算法推荐机制毫无掌控权。而使用蓝天空（虽然知名度较低但近年受关注）这类平台时，你接入的是联邦宇宙网络——每个用户都运行着自己的独立服务器。

Mhmm. Another example, I'll just say quickly, you know, in social media, which I think is a little bit more concrete is, you know, if you if you use formerly known as Twitter x, you are basically using someone else's platform who happens to be the richest man in the world, and it is going to those servers. And you have absolutely no control ultimately over what happens to your data, content moderation rules, what you're seeing the algorithm, all of that. If you use something like Blue Sky, which I know is, you know, not as popular, but it's gotten more attention over the past couple of years, then basically, you're tapping into something that's known as the Federverse. And everyone in the Federverse kind of has their own individual server that they're working off of.

它基于AT协议构建，能让你更好地掌控数据。去中心化网络在内容审核方面也涌现了许多创新实践。这确实是另一个...

It's built on top of something known as the AT protocol. And ultimately, you have a little bit more control over your data. Also, are a lot of really interesting things happening, I think, at the decentralized web around content moderation too. So, yeah, that's a that's another

完全正确。正如蒂姆指出的，互联网档案馆一直在倡导去中心化网络并推动协作，蓝天空和Filecoin网络都源于此。这些都是构建良性系统的工业化尝试。

Absolutely. And some of the decentralized web, as Tim pointed out, the Internet Archive has been really championing this and going and pulling people together, and Blue Sky somewhat came from that as well as the Filecoin network. And so the other attempts towards industrializing and making good systems.

星际文件系统（IPFS）

The interplanetary file system, IPFS

这就是系统。星际文件系统。真的，这就是它的名字。这个理念试图确保所有数据不会集中到某个人的电脑上，避免过度控制。然后突然掌管整个宇宙，而我要去获取所有这些数据，用于我的任何用途。

is the system. The interplanetary file system. For real, that's what it's called. Is the idea is to try to make it so that it all doesn't go to one person's computers that can go and control way too much. And then suddenly become in charge of the universe, and I'm going to go and take all that data and use it for my whatever.

所以，是的，让我们构建一些更高效的系统吧。

So, yeah, let let's let's build some systems that work better.

档案库不是在使用IPFS吗？对吧？是的。我们已经

And isn't the archive using IPFS? Right? Yeah. We've got

将超过两PB的互联网档案数据存入IPFS Filecoin网络。互联网档案馆视自己为推动这些去中心化系统运作的先锋。尽管这样做并不盈利，但帮助这些不同系统正常运作是我们的使命，无论是BitTorrent。我们将所有公开材料都放在BitTorrent上，这样即使我们下线，人们仍能访问。总之，这就是我们很多人秉持的理念。

over now over two petabytes of the Internet archive into the IPFS Filecoin network. We see ourselves at the Internet archive as really pushing and trying to make these decentralized systems work. And even though they're not profitable to do it, it's part of our mission to go and help along these different systems to go and make them work, whether it's BitTorrent. We put all of our public materials in BitTorrent so that if we get knocked offline, people still have access to it. So anyway, so that's that's the ethos that I think that a lot of us came from.

依靠捐款，我们发现人们非常支持这类工作，尤其是现在。每年有20万人点击互联网档案馆的小额捐款按钮。好吧，这比不上维基百科。我有点羡慕，但这确实意味着公众对公益事业有巨大支持。

And based on donations, we're finding people are really supportive of this type of work, especially now. There are now 200,000 people a year that hit the little donate button on the Internet archive. Okay. That's not as many as Wikipedia. I'm a little envious, but it's it does mean that there's a great deal of support for doing the public good.

这个回答太棒了。这是我们的最后一个问题。请大家和我一起感谢我们的专家小组。

That answer was so great. This is our last question. Please join me in thanking our panel.

谢谢。谢谢。感谢邀请我们。

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having us.

感谢Commonwealth Club。

And thank you Commonwealth Club.

是的，这是

Yeah. This was

这是

this was the

最后一刻，Commonwealth Club太棒了。非常感谢。

last minute, and the Commonwealth Club is awesome. Thank you very much.

好的。Commonwealth Club世界事务节目到此结束。感谢大家的到来。再次欢迎您成为会员，也欢迎参与我们的活动。

Okay. This concludes the program of Commonwealth Club World Affairs. Thank you for all coming. Again, we welcome your membership. We welcome participation.

非常感谢。谢谢。

Thank you so much. Thank you.

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