从自家后院开始：用激进的常识改造我们的生活空间

感谢您加入我们，收听联邦俱乐部的又一期播客节目。

Thank you for joining us for another podcast from the Commonwealth Club.

欢迎来到今日联邦俱乐部世界事务的节目现场，这是美国历史最悠久、规模最大的公共事务论坛。每年我们举办超过450场论坛，涵盖政治、商业、社会、气候和经济等广泛议题。我是安德鲁·达德利，人与自然论坛的主席，很高兴今天看到观众席上有这么多面孔。按照本论坛惯例，我想花点时间承认我们聚集的这片土地是拉玛图什人的传统家园。让我们借此机会表达作为客人的感激之情，并感谢这片土地的原始守护者。

Welcome to today's program at the common Commonwealth Club World Affairs, the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. Every year, we present more than 450 forums on topics ranging across politics, business, society, climate, and the economy. I am Andrew Dudley, chair of the People and Nature Forum, and it's a delight to see so many faces in the audience today. As is customary for this forum, I'd like to take a moment to acknowledge the land on which we gather as a traditional homeland of the Rama Tush people. Let's take this opportunity to express our gratitude as guests and to thank the original stewards of this land.

现在转向我们的主要活动，我非常荣幸地向大家介绍史蒂夫·尼格兰，《从自家后院开始：用激进常识改造我们的生活环境》一书的作者。史蒂夫是Serembe健康社区的创始人兼首席执行官，该社区作为示范模型，展示了保护绿地、融合农业、住宅和零售不仅经济可行，更是社区福祉的未来。史蒂夫作为一位远见者、场所营造专家，擅长将公共空间转变为促进社区联结与福祉的场所，他在新书中汇集了专业见解——为各世代居民开发可持续社区的蓝图，让繁荣体现在日常生活的每个瞬间。史蒂夫曾获多项殊荣，包括推动可持续发展的先锋个人奖——塞尔法斯·阿拉贡奖、全球健康峰会颁发的创新领袖奖，2019年更被《乔治亚趋势》杂志选为封面人物，誉为最受尊敬的商业领袖。恭喜他。

Now turning to our main event, it is my distinct pleasure to introduce Steve Nigran, author of Start in Your Own Backyard, Transforming Where We Live with Radical Common Sense. Steve is the Founder and CEO of Serembe, a wellness community created as a model to demonstrate the preserving green space, interlace of agriculture, housing, and retail is not only economically viable, but the future of community well-being. Steven, a visionary, placemaker, someone who specialize in transforming public spaces into areas that foster community, connection, and well-being, has pulled together his expertise in start your own backyard, transforming where we live with radical common sense, a blueprint for developing sustainable communities of citizens of all generations so they can thrive, and all is found in everyday moments. Steve has won numerous awards, including the self face Aragon Award for individuals leading the way in advancing sustainability, leader in innovation award from a global wellness summit, and Georgia Trend magazine put him on their cover as the most respected business leader in 2019. Congratulations.

今晚的主持人将是霍华德·沃尔纳，他是星巴克咖啡公司的退休高级副总裁。在公司任职期间，他担任过多个领导职位，帮助公司从早期运营阶段发展成为标志性品牌和全球企业。2018年1月至2019年6月，霍华德在斯坦福大学杰出职业研究院担任研究员。结束研究员任期后，他还联合创立了非营利组织'闪耀旧金山'，与旧金山市县合作，致力于恢复公民自豪感，打造清洁、受关爱的旧金山。现在请大家和我一起热烈欢迎史蒂夫和霍华德。

So our moderator this evening is gonna be Howard Wolner, who is a retired senior vice president of Starbucks Coffee Company. He held numerous leadership positions during his tenure at the company, helping to build the company from its early stage of operations into an iconic brand and global business. Howard was a fellow at Stanford University in the Distinguished Careers Institute from January 2018 to June 2019. Subsequent to his time as a DCI fellow, Howard also cofounded Shine on SF, a fiscally sponsored nonprofit in partnership with the city and county of San Francisco, which is committed to restoring civic pride and creating a clean, cared for San Francisco. So please join me in giving a warm welcome to Steven and Howard.

谢谢。感谢安德鲁的介绍。很高兴能和我朋友史蒂夫·尼格兰同台——他可是我更老的朋友了，我妻子芭芭拉曾与在亚特兰大经营知名餐厅时的史蒂夫共事。史蒂夫，每当我遇到来自亚特兰大且有一定阅历的人时，我都会问：你知道戴利餐厅吗？或者知道'快乐农夫'吗？

Thank you. Thank you, Andrew, for the introduction. I'm delighted to be here with my friend Steve Nigran. He's an even older friend, my wife Barbara, who worked with Steve when he was a restaurateur in Atlanta and very prominent. I have to say, Steve, when I meet someone from Atlanta and if they are of a certain vintage, I say, do you know and there were a lot of restaurants but I'll say, do you know Daly's or do you know the Pleasant Peasant?

他们总会回答：那可是当时最棒的餐厅！所以你做得非常出色，而且看得出来你现在也正做着了不起的事业

And they go, they were the best restaurants around. So you did a good job doing that and it looks like you're an awesome

我们当时有个超棒的团队。没错。

We had a great team. Yeah.

看来你正带着这本书和其中一些原则踏上旅程，这些原则已被你识别出来，可供在座各位使用。不过作为开场，史蒂夫，能否请你先简单介绍一下Sereneby是什么？这样我们可以展开更广泛的讨论，让大家对你所做的工作及其如何应用到他们自身环境中有所了解。或许先概述一下Sereneby？我去过那里所以了解，但对观众来说可能更有帮助。

So it looks like you're on your way, with this book and, some of the principles that you have, identified that can be used by everyone in this room. But maybe to start, Steve, if you could talk a little about Sereneby and what it is, and then we can get into a broader conversation so people have some context for, the work that you have done and how it can translate to their own backyard. But maybe just an overview of Serenebee. And, again, I've been there, so I know it. But for the audience, it would be helpful probably.

当然。如你所言，我曾是酒店业人士，过着非常惬意的生活。直到某天突然意识到与自然的连接能以不同方式滋养灵魂——那时我的孩子们分别是3岁、5岁和7岁，我们在亚特兰大郊区买了个周末农场。

Sure. You bet. Well, as you mentioned, I was the hospitality guy, having a great time. Life was great until suddenly you realize that connecting to nature really fed your souls differently. My my kids were three, five, and seven when we bought a weekend farm, excuse me, on the edge of Atlanta.

当时多少有些心血来潮，我自己也不明白为什么。随后三年间，这件事彻底改变了我们的生活。很多人难以理解，但我想疫情之后，不少人都经历了类似的重新审视人生重点的过程。这就是我的转折点。

And it was just sort of a whim. I had no idea why. And over the next three years, it changed our lives. A lot of people couldn't understand it, but I think post pandemic, a lot of people went through some of that same reanalyzing what was really important. And so that was my journey.

最终我卖掉了餐厅——其实已出售部分股权，这次是彻底交割。当时五年合约到期，我选择退出并归隐农场。十年后（准确说是七年后，距购买农场十年），我们突然意识到席卷美国的城市扩张正朝我们逼近。农场位于西南角八分之一扇形区域，那里原本没有道路。

And and so it I ended up selling the the restaurant. We'd sold part of it, and then it it was to finalize. My my five year contract was up, and and I elected to exit and retired the farm. And then ten years later, we or seven years later from that, ten years after buying it, we became con threatened that the urban sprawl that's happened across America was headed our way. The farm was in that lat that little kind of an eighth of a slice Southwest that there were no roads.

那片区域原本毫无开发迹象，所以无人关注。但突然间它成了亚特兰大都会区最后可用的农业用地。我们决定不再向外迁移，由此开启了新篇章。

Nothing was really happening there, so no one really knew about it. But all of a sudden, it was the last available ag land in Metro Atlanta. And so deciding that we weren't gonna move further out started this journey.

嗯。你在书中提到自己其实在科罗拉多的农场长大，而且直言那段经历并不愉快。那么这次决定经营农场有什么不同呢？

Mhmm. And one of the things in the book you talk about is you actually grew up on a farm in Colorado. And I I don't think I'm telling anyone a secret when you said it wasn't great experience. What was different about it relative to deciding, yeah, I'll go do a farm?

要知道我是第五代农场主。在那里你的生存完全依赖与自然的合作，而自然并不总是仁慈。可能遭遇颗粒无收，生活非常艰辛。我当年迫不及待想逃离，怀揣着成为建筑师的梦想。

Well, you know, I I was fifth generation. And so, you know, yeah, you your your life depended, and you're really in partnership with nature there. And nature wasn't always very kind. You know, you get wiped out. And so it it it was a hard life, and and I could hardly wait to get away, you know, the the dream of being an architect.

于是我就去了科罗拉多大学，后来被吸引进入了酒店行业。是啊。就是这样。但不，不是的。这有点讽刺，我全家都说，天啊。

And so off off to the University of Colorado and then I got seduced into the hospitality industry. So Yeah. That's But no. No. So it was kind of ironic and my whole family said, oh my god.

你你你要回到农场去了。而且，当然，我母亲来探望时，你知道，她简直不敢相信我要买农场。在参观了乔治亚州的一个农场后——那个农场基本上在二战后被森林重新占领了，你知道，树木长得很快。参观后她说，这其实不算真正的农场。所以情况很不一样。

You're you're you're going back to a farm. And and, of course, my mother came to visit, you know, and she couldn't believe that I was buying a farm. And and after touring, of course, a a farm in Georgia that that basically the forest reclaimed it after World War two that, you know, it the trees grow fast. So after after two, she came and said, well, this isn't really a farm. So so it was very different.

拥有农场可以纯粹为了乐趣，而不是靠它谋生。

Having a farm, could just enjoy for fun versus that you were dependent on it for your livelihood.

确实如此。在书中，我要展示一个图表，你谈到了亲生命性这个概念，这对你的工作非常重要。你有12个要素。能谈谈亲生命性是什么，以及为什么它对我们所处的时代很重要吗？

Very much so. In in the book, and I'm gonna show the diagram, you talk about, biophilia which is really an important concept for the work that you did. And you have 12 elements. Can you talk a little about biophilia and what it means and and why it's important for the times we live in?

当然。我是说，这个词我很幸运能知道。一位好友带我们去了落基山研究所。25年前的9月，23位思想领袖参加了一个为期两天的会议。比尔·布朗宁主持了会议，他提到了这个奇怪的词——亲生命设计。

You bet. I mean, is a word that I I was fortunate. A dear friend led us to the Rocky Mountain Institute. And so twenty five years ago, this last September, 23 thought leaders came for a two day session. And Bill Branling headed that, and he mentioned this strange word, biophilic design.

我不得不去查这个词，却记不住怎么拼写。我觉得这挺有意思，但它显然在我脑海中留下了印象。你知道，E.O.威尔逊普及了这个概念。

And I had to go look it up, and I couldn't remember how to spell it. And and I thought, well, that's interesting. But it clearly kinda stuck in my back of my mind. Know, E. O.

当时大家都觉得我们疯了，所以我只是埋头苦干。但经济复苏后，分析师说环境和适宜步行的社区最先复苏，而我们确实如此。我们从2010年开始复苏。所以引起了很大兴趣，人们开始出现并说，哦，这是亲生命性的。

Wilson had popularized it. And then everybody thought we were crazy, and so I just had my head down. But coming out of the recession, the analysts said that environmental and walkable communities were were the first to step out, and we we did. We started stepping out in 2010. So there was a lot of interest, and people were showing up and saying, oh, it's a it's a biophilic.

好吧。我是说，这是一个新城市主义者。新城市主义者不一定是环保主义者。所以这并不完全...你们是一个农业社区。是的，但并非所有农业社区都有村庄。

Well alright. I mean, it's a a new urbanist. Well, new urbanists aren't environmentalists necessarily. So that really didn't totally well, you're an agrihood. Well, yes, but all agrihoods don't have villages.

然后你们自称是环保社区，但环保社区都没有高密度建筑。实际上，我们在城市土地研究所的每个类别中都位列前十，但我们是唯一一个在多个类别中都上榜的。所以我必须找到一个定义我们身份的概念。突然间，亲生物设计出现了，因为它连接所有生命系统。我们正在做的就是连接所有生命系统，包括人类物种及其居住地。

And then you're we're, you know, environmental community when all all none of the environmental community had density. And in fact, we are in Urban Land Institute's tops 10 of each of those, but we're the only one in all in more than one. And so I had to find something that that was a definition of what we were. And all of a sudden, biophilic design, that was it because it's a connection of all living systems. And that's what we're doing is connecting all living systems, including the human species and where we can live.

于是我们开始宣称这就是我们的定位。后来，当我发现自己要成为开发商时，我意识到我们陷入这种困境是因为出现了意想不到的后果，我们的思维变得孤立。你看到的这些孤岛现象，就是我们发现所有关于建筑环境的决策都是在各自孤岛中做出的。经过五六十年后，我们甚至不明白一个领域的决策如何影响另一个领域。这就是为什么我们绘制了那张图表并进行了分析。

And so that we we we started saying that's who we are. And then as you know, when I discovered I was gonna be a developer, I found that we're in this mess because we've had unintended consequences and we become siloed in our thinking. And so this is the the the the silos that you see in that is is we identified all these decisions we're making in silos about our built environment. And now after five, six decades, we don't even understand how decisions in one area is affecting another. So this is why we've done that graph like that and identified.

底部是支柱，上面是所有构成要素。显然如你所说，你曾是位非常成功的餐厅老板。但现在你不仅买下农场，还决定要建设一个前所未有的社区。谈谈你借助了哪些专业知识来实现对Serenvy的愿景。

You've got the pillars at the bottom and then all of the elements of it. And obviously, as you said, you know, you had been a restaurateur, very successful. But here you are not only buying a farm but deciding you're gonna build a community that's never been there before. Talk a little about the expertise that you tapped into to help you essentially realize your vision for Serenvy.

最棒的是，我天真地意识到自己能力有限，却决定应该去做。我首先明确了目标，后来才发现这是不被允许的。嗯。但作为酒店业人士最大的优势——我看过你们的大厨房——就是我们都知道如何邀请人们加入。所以你只需邀请那些重要人物、你想学习的人或希望成为团队成员的人。

Well, the best thing is I was naive enough to know what I couldn't do and decided that we should. I you know, first, knew what we wanted to do before I realized that it wasn't allowed. Mhmm. But, you know, the best part about being a a hospitality person, I've seen your big kitchens, is we all know how to invite people to the table. And so you just invite the people that that might be important or you wanna learn from, that you wanna have be part of the team.

事情就是这样逐渐发展的：先是理想主义，然后是决心——你不会放弃，因为我做这个不是为了成为开发商。嗯。我做这个是为了保护土地，这是完全不同的出发点。

And that's really how it sort of evolved is it was the idealism and then determination that you're not gonna do it because I didn't do this to be a developer. Mhmm. You know, I did this to save the land, and that is a complete different attitude.

没错。我知道你的一位关键顾问是德克萨斯大学的教授

Right. And I know that one of your key advisors was a professor from the University of Texas

没错。

That's right.

最终在社区定居，在担任你顾问多年后搬到了社区。你能稍微谈谈这个转变过程，以及他是如何给予你重要帮助的吗？因为他在书中多次出现。

Ended up living in the community, moved to the community after advising you for a number of years. Can you talk a little about kind of that transition and how he helped you significantly? Because he he shows up in the book a number of times.

他...他确实是个关键人物。这很神奇，你需要的人总会适时出现。在那些退休岁月里，我们发现英国是个理想去处，因为文化相通，交流无障碍，对吧？

He well, he he he was a key person. And so it's like it's amazing how the people you need just show up. And so during those retirement years, we found that England was a great place to go because the the the culture was the same. You could talk. Right?

我们刚聊到带着孩子们去待了三四周，有位挚友在那儿。我因此深入了解了英国土地法，比如步道权。二战后他们无力承担即将席卷全国的郊区扩张——毕竟岛国面积有限。所以他们制定了完善的土地法，这是我发现的唯一范本。

We were just talking about and so we took the kids, you know, three, four weeks, and we had a dear friend. And so I learned a lot about the English land laws and, you know, the footpaths. And after World War two, they couldn't afford the the urban sprawl that we were getting ready to indulge in and across the country because the island was only so big. So they put good land laws in. So that was my only model that I had found.

为什么美国不能效仿？如果你去过英国，会发现即便村镇人口密集，仍保留着乡村气息。我向落基山研究所打听是否有能帮忙的人选。我们还接触到神圣几何学，那种能量的完美平衡。他们推荐了博尔德分校的一位教授，他协助过我们几个项目，就这样建立了联系。

Why can't we do that in America? Because if you've been there, there's a lot of people in the hamlets, villages, and towns, but it still feels very country. And so I I asked the Rocky Mountain Institute when they were there if they knew of anyone that could help me. We also learned about sacred geometry, you know, the total balance of the energy. And they said, you know, there's this this professor at Boulder that he he he's he's at he helped us on on a couple projects, and so they put me in touch.

结果他当时正要去德州农工大学执掌建筑系。这个南方人有段精彩故事：我联系他时，他犹豫不决，最初只答应担任顾问。最终他全程参与成为我们的土地规划师，那些年每学期都开设工作室，留下许多佳话。退休后他直接搬到了塞伦宾定居至今。

Well, it turns out he was on his way to Texas A and M to head up the architectural department. And he has a great story when, you know, this southern guy, you know, he's he he you know, I call him, and he was like, I don't know if I and and he decides to come be in a consultant initially. And he ended up the whole journey becoming our land planner, and they did did that. The all the years that he was there, we had a a studio every semester and great great stories on that. And then when he retired, he moved full time to Serebiin and lives there now.

你提到的概念中，除了传统社区，还有农业社区。在塞伦宾的构想中，这两者本质区别是什么？

And so one of the things that you talk about is post the neighborhoods, You talk about agrihoods. And what is the difference between a neighborhood and an agrihood as you've conceived it at Serengby?

你看，这非常相似。我是说，社区就是你拥有的那种整体密度。城市扩张没有这种特质。当然，我们宏大的土地规划——当我们考虑将英国土地法引入南方州的产权制度时，谢天谢地所有专业人士都觉得我疯了。所以我没花一分钱。

Well, see, it's very similar. I mean, neighborhood is that whole density that that that you have. An urban sprawl didn't have that. And, of course, our big land plan, we you know, once we looked at bringing English land law to a property right southern state, thank goodness all the professionals thought I was crazy. So I didn't spend $1.

全是学术界的人。德州农工大学、佐治亚大学和佐治亚理工学院。他们是我的专业团队。当然，大学教授和学生和我们一样是理想主义者。他们没意识到什么是做不到的。

It was all the academic people. So it was Texas A and M, the University of Georgia, and Georgia Tech. They were my my professional folks. And, of course, university professors and students, they they're idealist as we were. And so they're not realizing what you can't do.

他们关注的是应该做什么。这就是我们真正的方向。但那30%的密度——农业社区就是在旁边建个农场。当时大家都觉得农场臭烘烘的，好吧，工业化农场确实如此。

They're they're looking at what you should do. And and and so that's, you know, where we really headed with that. But and so that's the density, the 30%. Agrihood is just putting a farm next to it. Now everybody thought farms were stinky back then and that and, well, industrial farms are.

但有机农场不会。我来自农场，所以觉得理所当然。要打造真正的社区就必须有农场。我们建农场时不觉得特别，后来发现这非常特别。《纽约时报》记者大卫·萨克——他拿过很多奖——

But in organic farms are not. So being from a farm, it was just natural. If we were really gonna have a community, we had to have a farm. And so we just put the farm in not thinking that was unusual, and we found it was very unusual. A New York Times reporter, David Sack, in fact, he he won a lot of awards.

这位著名作家来做了专题报道，称之为‘邻里社区’。

Well known writer. He came and did a story, and he called it a neighborhood.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这有点像一场运动。就是简单地拥有农场，让孩子们能趴在围栏上认识种植食物的农民。这是我们做过最棒的事情之一，当时没意识到它会有多神奇。

And it's kind of a movement. So it's just simply having a farm and all the kids can, you know, hang over the fence and then they know the farmer who's growing their food. And it's it's it's one of the greatest things that that we did. I didn't realize how incredible it was going to be.

嗯。在加州乃至全美备受关注的一个概念是再生农业，这也是你们农业社区的另一组成部分。能否概述一下什么是再生农业，以及你们在Serengby是如何实践的？

Mhmm. Well, one of the concepts that is getting a lot of traction here in California and I think elsewhere in the in the country is regenerative agriculture. And that's another component of your agrohood. So what is for overview of regenerative agriculture and how are you applying it at Serengby?

确实。要知道，我们最需要关注的就是我们的土壤。这可能是我们最脆弱的两大系统——电网和食物体系中的关键。而食物体系，首先要保护我们种植食物所用的土壤本身。

Absolutely. Well, it you know, that that that's you know, we need to worry about our our our our dirt. You know? It's it's probably the two most critical things that we have, the most vulnerable things is our power grid and our food systems. And the food system, it it begins with with protecting the actual dirt that we're growing the food with.

土壤质量一直在持续下降。我们过度使用化学品，不断破坏它。你们有多少人看过纪录片《共同的土地》？

And and it's it's it's been steadily diminishing. We've been chemicalizing it. We've been tearing it up. If you if you've seen, how many people have seen Common Ground, the the documentary? Yeah.

那部片子对此的阐述再透彻不过了。我们正在做的正是这些。这让我想起招聘园丁时，我们想找个真正理解自然之道的人。后来遇到位出色的园丁，她通过了面试。

I mean, that that describes it better than anything. And so, you know, this is just what we're doing. And I think reminds me when I was hiring a gardener, and we wanted a gardener that understood this whole thing about being natural. And so this was a great gardener. She appeared to be got the interview.

我告诉她：'我们采用全有机和再生农业模式。'她却说：'抱歉，我不懂这些。'当我解释后，她说：'哦，这和我祖母教我的方法一样。'

And I said, now you you you realize we you know, we're all organic and and and regenerative agriculture. And she says, oh, I'm sorry. I don't know any of that. So I started explaining to her. She said, oh, well, that's the way I learned from my grandmother.

你看，我们已偏离这些基本理念如此之远，不得不创造新术语来定义现状，这很可悲。正因我们的实践，现在连国家级机构都来考察。常识性做法竟成了重大课题——如今罗代尔研究所的东南研究中心就设在我们旁边引领这项工作。

So, you know, we've gotten so far away from these basic concepts that we've had to put these terms on it that that is where we are. It's terrible. So so we do that because because we were doing this, we've ended up having national organizations to come to see what we're doing. It's it's amazing how this common sense stuff's become major. So now the the Rodale Institute has their Southeastern Research Center right next to us leading in this.

保护基金会也在此启动了农场基金，美国农田信托机构在此设立办事处。我们已发展成真正的智库。我们的国会议员大卫·斯科特曾任民主党农业委员会主席，我特意告诉他：'你该来看看选区内的罗代尔研究所，了解再生农业这些实践。'

And and the conservation fund launched their farms fund. The national the American Farmland Trust now operates out there. So we've got we've turned into this real think tank. And our congressman, David Scott, he was head of the agriculture committee when the Democrats were there, happened to be our congressman. I I I said, you need to come down and see the Rodeo Institute in your district about regenerative agriculture and and and the whole thing.

他来了。他非常印象深刻。他说，天哪。我们正在关注的一些事情。我们65%的化肥来自俄罗斯和乌克兰。

He came. He was so impressed. He says, oh my god. Some of the things we're looking at. 65% of our of our fertilizer is coming from Russia and Ukraine.

我们怎么会变得如此脆弱，以至于让这种情况发生？在媒体面前，他要求我们在国会面前准备一份证词，我非常自豪我们首次将弗吉尼亚深度农业写入了会议记录。希望农业法案能通过，我们拭目以待。他们会回来审查事项。但我们确实深度参与了整个再生农业食品体系这件事。

How have how have we become so vulnerable that we're letting that happen? So there in in front of the press, he asked us to put together a testimony in front of congress, and I'm very proud that we were able to put Virginia deep agriculture for the first time written into the the minutes. And, hopefully, the farm bill, we'll see if that ever gets passed. They're gonna come back to to look at things. But so we are really involved in this entire regenerative agriculture food system thing.

我们拥有自己的城市。我们正准备为这座城市聘请一位农业专员。有人正辞去企业工作，前来购买土地。我们现在已确认有80个自耕农户。

We are we we put a the city that we have. We have our own city. We we're getting ready to hire a ag commissioner for the city. We're having people leaving their corporate jobs and coming out and buying land. We have what we've identified now as 80 homesteaders.

这些人正从种植中转型，我们正在整合资源，让他们不必亲自去市场。我们把他们与餐厅和食品系统连接起来。我们确实在这场农业运动中做了一些有趣的事情。

It's people who are stepping off growing things, and so we're putting together so they don't have to be the one showing up the markets. We connect them with the restaurants and the food thing. So so it it we're really doing some fun things in that whole agricultural movement.

那么接下来顺理成章的就是餐厅了。是的。你们确实在Serengi开了一些餐厅。

And so the the next logical thing is restaurants. Yes. And you did open some restaurants at Serengi.

嗯。

Mhmm.

谈谈这些餐厅的运营模式吧。我记得在书里读到，有一对夫妇要来开店。可能是面包店或咖啡馆，他们原本不打算全职住在那里。但开了餐厅后他们说：'你知道吗？我们觉得需要住在这里'，最后他们搬到了Serendee。

And talk a little about how those operate because there I know some in reading the book, there was one couple that were coming down. I think it might have I from it might have been a bakery or it might have been a just a cafe, but they were gonna open it but not be there as full time residents. And they opened their restaurant, and they say, you know what? We think we need to live here, and they end up moving to Serendee.

嗯，这些人是个组合。是的，有几件事凑在一起。但你知道，作为从事酒店业的人，你们必须有个餐厅。我是说，我们怎么能建立一个社区呢？

Well, there's a combination of those people. Yeah. There's a couple things there together. But, you know, being hospitality people, you you had to have a restaurant. I mean, how could we build a community?

当然，我们现在身处树林中央，大家都觉得我疯了。现在我有了些见解后能理解为什么了，但我已经成为了这片区域的一部分。所以我想，好吧，我们就建个联排别墅吧，因为没人能想象出联排别墅的样子。要知道，这里全是树林，除了一栋农舍什么都没有。

And, of course, we're out in the middle of the woods here, and everybody thought I was nuts. And I understand why now that I've gotten a little perspective, but I I I I had become the area. So I thought, well, we'll we'll build a townhouse because nobody could imagine a townhouse. Now, you know, this is all woods. There's nothing except a farmhouse.

当然，我们正在中间做这一切。我嫂子说她要建个小屋，一个朋友说他要建个州议会大厦。于是我说，我们会开个餐厅。所以我计划在餐厅旁建三栋住宅，人们开始明白我们在做什么了，懂吗？

And, of course, we're doing this all in the middle. And my sister-in-law said, well, I'll build a cottage, and a friend said, I'll build a state house. And so I said, we'll have a restaurant. So I thought we'll have three residences in a restaurant, and people start getting an idea of what we're doing. You know?

当我们宣布这个计划后，食物造型师兼作家安吉·莫舍说：'天啊，开面包店一直是我的梦想。'我说：'安吉，你根本不知道。我记得芭芭拉当银行副总裁时也这么说过，但看看后来发生了什么。这非常相似。'

And once we announced we were doing this, Angie Mosher, who was a food stylist and writer, said, oh my god. It's always been my dream to have a bakeshop. And and I said, oh, Angie, you know, you you have no idea. I remember telling Barbara that when she was a vice president of a bank and but look what happened. It so it it it it it it's very similar.

于是安吉说：'我丈夫是职业音乐家，是时候让他实现梦想了。'我说：'太好了，来吧，干吧。'他们来了并开了店，但太吃力了。

And and so Angie said, well, my husband's a professional musician, and it's time for him to get that. So I said, well, great. You come on. Do it. So they came and opened it, but it was too much.

所以她拒绝了。但后来有其他搬来的人接手了餐厅。现在经营的那个人，我们短暂经营过一阵子。他来了，实际上已经带着家人搬来定居，现在正从我们手里买下它。这对我们开发公司来说是个巨大成功。

And so she said no. But we've had other people that have moved there that have done the restaurant. And so it's mean, the person who now operates that, we we did for a little bit. He came, and he's actually moved there and his family and and living there and is now buying it from us. So it's a it's a huge success from our development company.

但你知道，每个人都说：'天啊，你要建这个为什么不放在主路上？在树林中央谁会找到你们？'当然，现在我们教导开发商时就会说，这就是场所营造和普通开发的区别。开发是建造庇护所，等住户足够多时才配套服务设施，他们只计算屋顶数量。

But, you know, everybody said, oh my god. If you are gonna build this, why don't you put it on the main road? How will anybody find you in the middle of the woods? And, of course, now as we teach to developers, that's the difference between place making and development. Development is creating shelter, and then they put services in when there are enough people and they count rooftops.

场所营造者打造吸引外来人群的场所，这样我们所有居民都能步行享受这些优质服务。现在我们拥有五家餐厅、五家咖啡馆、五家美发沙龙，它们80%的客源都是驱车前来的顾客，因为这里确实是享受这些服务的好地方。这就是真正的差异所在。

Placemakers create places that draw people from outside so that all of our residents can walk to these great services. So now we have five restaurants, five coffee shops, five hair salons, and they are all supported 80 by people who drive in because it's a great place for these services. So that's that's the real difference.

不过要接着你刚才说的，是指雏菊吗？

To build on what you were saying, though, that is it the Daisy?

雏菊。对的。

The Daisy. Yeah.

对。那个叫什么来着？

Yeah. The what's it?

蓝眼睛的雏菊。

Blue Blue eyed Daisy.

蓝眼睛雏菊。没错。有人建议我们把它直接建在居民区，但你说不，要把它建在树林里。

Blue eyed Daisy. Yeah. You got suggestions that we'll put it right here in the you know, where everyone is living. And you said, no. I'm gonna put it out in the woods.

当时人们觉得你这么做太疯狂了，因为他们得专门走到树林里去

And people thought you were crazy to do that because there was they're gonna have to walk out in the woods to go to

这个东西。那里。为什么？怎么会有人

this thing. There. Why? How would anybody

是的。所以谈谈，你知道，谈谈那个让你觉得这是个好主意的灵光一现是什么。

Yeah. So talk about talk about what, you know, what what the light bulb was for you that said that's a good idea.

我的意思是，如果我们打算创建一个地方，我根本不想选址在乡间道路旁。再加上我们已制定的分区规划。现在我们改变了60平方英里（约4.5万平方英尺）的土地用途，因为我研究过那些成功案例——芝加哥郊外的草原十字镇，佛罗里达的滨海镇。但问题是，每个人都觉得自己做得很好，结果还是在路对面建着千篇一律的东西。很快，他们实际上加速了这个地区的破坏，而非改变它。

What what we just had to I mean, if we were gonna create a place, I I didn't wanna be on the rural road. Plus our zoning that we have put in. Now we changed zoning on on 60 square miles, 45,000 square feet, because I looked at great places that have done things, Prairie Crossing outside Chicago, Seaside in Florida. And what happens is everyone thinks they're doing a great job, and they put their same old stuff across the road. And pretty soon, they have actually accelerated the destruction of the area rather than changing it.

于是我意识到必须制定法规来杜绝这种现象。我们在这60平方英里土地上设置了覆盖性条款，规定历史道路150英尺范围内不得动土。根据我自己制定的分区法规，我也不能例外。这是其一。

And so I realized we had we had to put regulations in that didn't allow that. And so we we put an overlay on this 60 square miles. And with that, you cannot disturb a 150 feet from the historic roads. So by the zoning I put in place, I couldn't. So that's one thing.

但真正的核心在于我们是在建设社区。现在那些餐厅都成为内部道路和步行系统的一部分。嗯。那个

But the real thing is we were building a community. And so now those restaurants are all part of the that inner road and path system. Mhmm. That

你之前提到设计灵感部分来自英国村庄概念。正如你所说，这里原本是树林，一片空白。可以说所有东西都是从零开始建造的。但它不像传统开发区——比如五十年代的莱维敦，人们会走错房子，就因为门开在左边或右边。

And you'd said that, you know, part of the way you designed it was the English village concept. And the arch so this as you said, it was woods. There was nothing there. So you were everything came up from the ground, so to speak. But it doesn't look like a traditional development, you know, where, you know, in the fifties, it was Levittown and, you you know, people would go to the wrong house because it was just the door was on one side or the other side.

除此之外那些房子完全一样。你们没有这样做，而是打造了非常多样化的住宅群。虽然我认为还是有一些规范标准，但请谈谈你们如何让社区焕发生机，使其充满个性而非千篇一律。

And otherwise, they were identical. You didn't do that. You created a very, diverse group of homes. There's some I think there's some, parameters, but talk a little about how you brought the community to life so that it felt like individuals live there rather than, you know, cookie cutter.

当我意识到自己将成为一名开发者时，我便开始认真学习。我喜欢什么？不喜欢什么？当然，我想大概是因为早年对建筑学的兴趣，我一直都在吸收这类知识。于是我走访各种开发项目，却很少拍照记录。

Once I realized I was gonna be a developer, I really started studying. What did I like? What didn't I like? And, of course, I guess because of my interest in architecture way back, I had been sort of absorbing all those kind of things. And and so I I go to developments, and I come out with very few pictures.

要知道，这些地方虽有厚厚的开发指导手册，但实际可操作的选择却很有限。我观察真实的城镇，发现它们千差万别。我意识到关键在于建筑的布局与体量——建筑物该离路边多远？该多高？如何融入街道的整体风貌？这就是我的关注重点。

And, you know, these are the places with wide development guideline books, but narrow options of what you can put in them. And I looked at real towns, and there was a big variety. And I realized one of the key things was placement and massing. So where does a building sit from the curb or the edge of the road, and how tall is it and how does that all fit in the tapestry of the street? And so I realized that was the focus.

现在我们规定每块地只允许一种建筑风格，但地块之间可以混搭。这让整体看起来更自然，更像真实的城镇。我们的设计审查指南就这么厚（比划），非常简单。

And then only allowing one style of architecture per lot. Now we mix it from lot to lot. And so this makes it look much more organic and much more like real towns. And so our design review guidelines are about that thick. It's very simple.

你只需要理解优秀建筑的本质。我看到有人点头赞同——有位设计师正在处理'填补中间空缺'的工作。归根结底，这关乎建筑本身、空间布局与风格表达。这就是我们的核心理念。如今你若造访塞雷米，会发现它看起来非常自然。

You just have to understand good architecture. And I see nodding the head, the back, you know, there there is a fellow who who's doing a lot of the designs for the replace middle of putting the middle in. So and and it's all about architecture and and and placement and how you style that. So so that's what we feel about focused. You visit Seremee today, it looks more organic.

简直难以置信这里曾是一片森林。二十年前这里空无一物。我们手头还有正在开发的社区照片——七年前那里还是森林。嗯。

It looks you can't believe it was all a forest. There twenty years ago, there wasn't a thing there. And we have pictures of the the neighborhood we're just doing. Seven years ago, it was a forest. Mhmm.

如今这里已成为繁荣的村落。因为我们保留了树木，整个区域呈现出有机的田野风貌，这需要深思熟虑。

And now it's a thriving village that because we save trees, there it's an organic field to it, and so it takes thought.

是的。你在书里提到开车经过两个相邻的开发项目时，发现明明有更便捷的方案，却要绕行17英里才能从一个到另一个。能聊聊你当时看到这个设计时的想法吗？为什么会这样设计？

Yeah. You write about driving your car to go somewhere and you pass two different developments that are right next to each other, but you realize that it took you 17 miles to go from one to the other where there was an easier solution. Can you talk a little about what you what that idea was that you looked at and said, why did they do that?

嗯，这就是城市扩张，你知道的，或者说最糟糕的城市扩张。而且每个人都认为，你知道的，你们有你们所有的市政府。每个人都这么难搞。在旧金山这里，大家都说，哇，他们太难搞了。

Well, this is urban sprawl, you know, or urban sprawl at at the worst, you know. And and everyone thinks, you know, you have all your your your your your city governments. Everyone is so difficult. I know here in San Francisco, everybody says, wow. They're so difficult.

唉，发展委员会一直干得很差劲。大家都，你知道的，你们你们你们触手都伸上去了。你们以为已经搞定了。但事实并非如此。不过城市扩张确实是个很好的例子。

Well, the development committee has been doing a lousy job. Everybody is just you know, you you you have tentacles up. You presume it's down. And so that isn't the case. But that but urban sprawl is a good example.

所以这是一个例子，当你可以，你知道的，你可以航拍。你可以观察情况。而且在那里，我我有一张照片，我想你你指的就是那个，它就在县界线上。所以二十、二十五年前，那里和我们拥有的是同一片森林。除了农舍什么都没有。

So this was this was a case when you can, you know, you can get an aerial. You can look at things. And and there, I I have one picture where I think you're you're referring to that it it's right over the county line. So twenty, twenty five years ago, it was the same forest that we had. There wasn't anything there except farm houses.

他们本有机会做和我们一样的事。实际上，我们曾尝试将区域扩展到另一个县，但没能成功。于是我我我看了这两栋房子，艾瑞尔，它们相距大约1500英尺。但中间有树林，还有，你知道的，可能有些湿地。我知道那些孩子上的是同一所学校。

They had the same opportunity to do what we do. In fact, we tried expanding the area into the other county, and and we weren't able to do it. And so I I I looked at these two houses, Ariel, and they're about maybe 1,500 feet apart. But there's woods and and and, you know, maybe some wetlands between it. And I know those kids go to the same school.

于是我把这些地址输入谷歌，想看看从一个前门到另一个要花多长时间，因为它们都在死胡同里，通向主干道，而且没有人行道。这些孩子没有其他方式到达那里。这个时代的父母当然不会让他们走这些路。结果从一个前门到另一个要花十七分钟。于是我们意识到一个大问题是什么。

And so I put those addresses into Google to see how long how far it took to get from one front door to the other because they're both on cul de sacs that open to the main roads, and and there's no sidewalks. There's no other way for those kids to get there. Parents in this day and age certainly aren't gonna let them walk out on these roads and around. And so it takes seventeen minutes to get from one front door to the next. And so we realized what one of the big problems is.

我是说，如果你看看乔纳森·海特现在关于'焦虑一代'的讨论，关于屏幕的问题。所有人都在责怪AI和屏幕。但问题出在我们的建设方式上。这些可怜的孩子，唯一能和朋友联系的方式就是通过屏幕，或者和父母商量接送，因为父母太害怕让他们出门了。这是我们犯下的最大罪行之一——我们为孩子构建社会的方式。理查德·卢夫二十年前在《林间最后的小孩》中就指出了这一点，而我们什么都没做。

I mean, if you look at Jonathan Hyatt's anxious generation right now talking about, you know, the screens, And everyone's blaming the the AI and and the screens. But the problem is the way we've been building. These poor kids, the only way they can connect with their friends is through screens or negotiate with their parents to be a chauffeur because the parents are too afraid to let them out. And it it it it's one of the biggest crimes we have is how we've been building our society for kids. Richard Louv identified this in Last Child in the Woods now twenty years ago, and and we haven't done anything about it.

理查德·海特说情况有多严重。当我们面临如此严重的焦虑、恐惧、抑郁问题时，为什么人们不问这些问题？这就是建成环境的问题，这是个很好的例子。是的。

Richard Hyatt says how how severe it is. Why aren't people asking these questions when we have such a problem with anxiety, fear, depression? It's the built environment, and this is a good example. Yep.

这让我想起一个类似的故事想分享。是关于一个叫Islandwood的组织，我曾在其董事会任职，位于班布里奇岛。

Well, it's it brings up for me a story that I wanna share that is along those lines. And it was about a organization, a board I served on called Islandwood Yes. On Bainbridge Island.

是的。

Yes.

这是个环境学习中心，由黛比和保罗·布雷纳德创立。保罗是Aldis的创始人，该公司开发了PageMaker，后来被Adobe收购。他们用财富投资了班布里奇岛255英亩土地。

It's an environmental learning center. Debbie and Paul Brainard found it. Paul was the founder of Aldis, which created PageMaker. And then Adobe bought them. But they took their wealth and invested in two fifty five acres on Bainbridge Island.

他们为四、五、六年级的孩子们建造了这个环境学习中心。班级会来住三晚，从西雅图乘渡轮抵达。这些孩子大多从未乘渡轮离开过西雅图，也从未在外过夜。

And they built this environmental learning center for children, fourth, fifth, and sixth grade children. Classes came for a three night stay. They took a ferry from Seattle to get there. Most of these kids had never been out of Seattle on a ferry. They'd never slept away from home.

建筑师们做了件非凡的事——开展设计研讨会（Charette）。大家都知道，这类似于头脑风暴，集思广益。而他们这次是和孩子们一起进行的。

And so one of the things that the architects did, which was just remarkable, was they did Charettes. And everyone, I think, knows what a Charette is. They they they it's kind of a brain, dump. You think about different things and you talk about ideas. And the charette they did was with the kids.

建筑师让孩子们围坐并问：'如果住在森林里，你们想看到什么？'孩子们说：'想醒来就看到树木。'于是每张双层床都装了能望见树林的小窗。随行老师反馈说，这些在课堂上沉默的孩子，一旦踏上小径——比如捡起香蕉蛞蝓舔舐导致舌头麻木时——就变成了话匣子。

And the architect sat the kids down and said, what would you like to see if you're staying away from home in the forest? And they said, I wanna wake up and see the trees. And so every bunk bed has a little window in it that looks right out at the trees. And one of the things that that we heard from the the teachers come with the kids, and they stay with them. One of the things we heard from the teachers was that once these kids got out onto the trails and were doing things like picking up a banana slug and licking it and their tongue would go numb, that they these kids that weren't saying a word in the classroom were chatterboxes.

回到课堂后，他们的参与方式也变了。激发孩子参与的理念至关重要。你们通过艺术课程等项目实现这点。能聊聊你们开展的体育项目和其他工作吗？

And then they came back in the classroom, and they engage in a different way. So this idea of engaging children is huge and really important. And you do that with other programs. You have art programs. You wanna talk a little about some of that work you do and the sports programs you have?

是的，我们有很多。你知道吗，我们从来没聊过这个。我不知道你参与其中，因为儿童与自然网络中有很多领导层都出自那个项目。

Yeah. We we have a lot. You know, we've never talked about that. I didn't realize you were part of that because a lot of the people with Children and Nature Network are some of the leadership that came out of that program.

所以我保守秘密。

So I I keep secrets.

你知道吗？是的。知道。所以我非常了解那个项目。对，那个项目我很熟悉。

You know? Yeah. Know. So so so I I I know that program Yeah. That that program well.

这是个非常棒的非营利组织。

It's a wonderful it's a wonderful nonprofit.

通过类似的方式，有一件事——和我们一起的莫妮卡曾是创办一所特许学校的团队成员。那是大约十二年前，十年前的事了，源于Richard Louvre的工作。学校坐落在森林小屋和农场里，每天有三分之一时间在户外活动。他们学习各种知识。CBS周日晨间节目曾专程从圣地亚哥请来Richard Liu在校园里采访他。

So so through through the similar one one thing, and and Monica, who's with us, was part of the group that stood up a charter school. That's now, what, twelve years ago, ten years ago, out of Richard Louvre's work. And it is cottages in the woods and a farm, and a third of the day is spent outside. So they're learning all these various things. It CBS Sunday morning flew Richard Liu from San Diego out to interview him on the campus.

当时引起了极大关注。由于是特许学校，许多孩子的学业成绩得到提升。这些孩子大多来自当地学校——我们所在小镇的邻居学校，如今100%的孩子都享受免费或补助午餐。这让你了解他们的背景。有些家长因此慕名而来。

There was such interest. Now a lot of people were doing improved academics because it is a charter school. So a lot of these kids were coming from some of the local schools where our our neighbor in school in in a little town, a 100% of the kids today are on free or assisted lunch. So it gives you an idea where they're coming from from transit and what have you. So there were some of those parents that came.

情况很复杂。是的，我们必须提高学业成绩，但在乔治亚州（这是疫情前数据），每年因健康问题要缺勤17-18天。三年后，缺勤率低到可以忽略不计。这才是真正引人注目的地方。

It was a mix. Yeah. We had to improve the academic scores, but the big thing in Georgia, and this is pre pandemic, seventeen to eighteen days were missed every year due to due to health. After three years, the absenteeism was so low that it rounded out to zero. And so that was the real interest.

那位从公立学校转到特许学校的护士说，我以前见过这些同样的孩子。我确信他们有同样的父母。他们很可能住在同一栋房子里。三年前我看到他们时，他们是真的生病了。现在他们没病了。

And the nurse who came from that public school and came to the charter school said, I used to see these same kids. I'm sure they have the same parents. They they they they they probably are in the same house. They were legitimately sick when I saw them three years ago. They're not sick now.

他们现在很期待来学校。他们不会整天想着要待在户外三分之一的时间。现在他们住在小屋里。虽然缺少很多基础设施，比如没有扶手栏杆，他们不用接触这些东西，但他们的精神状态好多了。

They're excited to come to school. They don't think about you know, it's being outside a third of the day. Now they're cottages. There's a lot of basic things is there's not handrails. They're not touching all these things, but also their spirit is much higher.

那里有500个孩子，还有500人在等候名单上。所以事实证明这终究不是一所社区学校。这是它的缺点。人们要开很远的路送孩子来。

500 kids there, 500 on the wait list. So it it turns out it's not a neighborhood school after all. You know? So that was the downside. People are driving too far for it.

所以现在我们有一所私立学校，在塞雷比地区我们可以更好地管控它，但25%的孩子必须靠奖学金就读。我们社区已经筹集了资金，让当地农场和商人的孩子也能来上学。我们再次做到让每间教室都有一面墙通向自然，孩子们可以自由进出。他们有很大空间接触自然，还会去农场。

So So now we have a private school where we can control it more in in the midst of Serebi, but 25% of the kids have to be on scholarship. And our community has raised the money that that can happen so the local farms, merchants can come there. And all all here again, we've done it to where every every one wall of every classroom opens to nature so they're in and out. They have huge so it's part of nature. They go to the farm.

特许学校有自己的农场。而这所学校的孩子会去我们社区里的农场。他们是融入式的。但对孩子们来说最重要的是，农场不仅限于围栏区域。我们的景观绿化都是可食用的。

The charter school has their own farm. This school, they go to our farm that's that's in the community. They're they're integrated. But but one of the big things for for kids is the farm isn't just in that fenced area. You know, we have we have edible landscaping.

我们在十字路口种蓝莓，路边种满李子树和苹果树，孩子们通过日常景观就能了解生长季节。为什么不在更多地方这样做呢？这就是我们教育的一部分。我们有很多项目让孩子完全参与其中。我们总是把责任推给教师和教育系统，但我记得早期有位顾问来看过后说——这是我们做过的一系列小组讨论——

We have blueberries at the crosswalks, banks of of plums and the apple trees, and the kids understand the growing season just because it's part of our landscaping. Why aren't we doing this more places? And so it it's part of what what's going going on there, and and we just have a lot lot of programs where the kids are just totally involved and and so much of our education. You know, we've we've handed it and blame teachers in the in the system. But I remember one of the early advisers we had, we brought to look at this, and it was a whole series we did and and in little groups.

小组讨论结束后我们问：'你们今天谈论的所有内容中，任务是什么？作为孩子时学到哪些至今仍在使用的知识？'每个人都参与了讨论。最后汇报时，我问：'请举手示意有多少人谈到在教室四面墙里学到的东西？'结果只有六七个人举手。

And then we came out of the groups and said, now everything you talked about, the the task was, what what did you learn as a child that you use today? And so they there was this everybody had their discussion. They say, okay. Now we're gonna report back, but I just wanna show hands. How many have you talked about something you learned in the four rooms of a classroom and only about six, seven people raised their hands?

我们必须记住，教育发生在社区中，发生在你遇到的每个人身上。由于我们建造场所的方式，这种与长者的联系已经消失太多次了，尤其是孩子们与长者的联系。

So we gotta remember education happens in community and everyone you you meet with, and that's disappeared too many times because of the way we've built places where kids are using that that connection with elders especially.

这是个很好的过渡，因为我下一个问题正是关于长者的。在座的很多都是婴儿潮一代。在创建社区、场所营造和参与的整体运动中，老年人能扮演什么角色？你的书里提到老年人如何发挥作用了吗？

Well, that's a good segue because my next question is gonna be about elders. A lot of us in the room are boomers. What is the role for seniors in the whole movement of kinda creating community and place making and engagement? What what does your book say about how seniors can play a role?

想想看要扮演什么角色，以及我们正在建设什么？我观察到最重要的一点是，如果要建设社区，我们会分阶段进行。最初是艺术农业，现在我们正在做健康与福祉。其中一部分是关于人们将如何养老——毕竟这个项目已经进行了二十年。

Well, think play a role and and then what are we building? You know, one of the biggest things I saw, if we were gonna build a community, we we kinda stages. It was, you know, it it was art agriculture and now we're doing health and wellness. And part of that is is is how are people going to age? I mean, we're now twenty years into it.

我们那里有八九十岁的老人正在养老。很多时候人们会担心可能发生的事。所以问题在于这类养老场所在哪里？于是我开始在全国各地考察。

We we've got people aging into their eighties and nineties who are living there. And and many times people are worried about what might happen. And so it's where are those kind of places? So, you know, I started touring the country. Okay.

所谓的老年住房究竟在哪里？不知道你们中有多少人经历过把父母送进那些地方，我称之为'死亡游轮'。我不想和其他人一起登船，看着所有人都在你面前老去，然后突然灵车开来把人接走，隔壁房间又空出来了。天啊，这太可怕了。我认识我的五位曾祖父母。

Where where is the senior housing, so to speak, that you wanna bring in? I don't know how many of you had to deal with your parents and put them those places, but I call them cruise ships to death. Know, it's it's it's you know, I I don't wanna board that with everybody else's is is aging in front of you, and then all of a sudden, the hearse pulls up and they're gone and and the the next room open. I mean, god, how awful. I knew five of my great grandparents.

他们都很活跃——这是很重要的一点，非常重要。疫情让我们看到这种隔离是多么不人道。我们把社会的两端群体都关在了我称之为'监狱'的地方。

They were engaged. That was one of the big things. It was it was it was it was huge. And I think the pandemic showed how inhuman it is. We put both bookends of our society in what I would call prisons.

而整合这些资源至关重要。天啊，我们又遇到了各种规章制度。要想做出改变需要克服很多障碍。所以我们正在打造一个原地养老社区。

And and to integrate that is huge. My goodness. We found out regulations, everything here again. You have to do a lot of things to do it differently. So we're we're doing an aging in place campus.

这不会变成机构化模式。我们正在引入一个健康社区的概念，类似于欧洲的礼宾服务模式。不知道你们是否关注过荷兰的痴呆症村——虽然我们的重点不在痴呆症，但这是一种关于如何整合而非隔离的新思路。这就是我们的实施方式。

It's not gonna be institutionalized. We're bringing in we have a village of health, a concierge, very much like the European model. I don't know if any of you have followed dementia village The Netherlands. Not not that we're focusing on dementia, but it's a new thought about how you integrate and it's not segregated. And so that's that that's that's how we're gonna do that.

但我想，我们婴儿潮一代是唯一经历过这些的世代。记得吗？在六十年代，我们曾试图用自由恋爱、摇滚乐和毒品解决所有问题。

But then, you know, I think we are the one generation, the baby boomers now as we move into elderhood. Remember, we we were gonna solve everything in the sixties with, you know, free love, rock and roll, and drugs.

就在旧金山这里。

Right here in San Francisco.

我们身处其中。第十街和桃树街曾是南方的嬉皮士圣地，但效果并不理想。我们这代人也是九十年代贪婪的一代，是唯一经历过这两种极端的世代。如今步入老年，我希望我们能回归中庸之道。

We you know, this was the middle of it. Tenth And Peachtree was the hay dash berry of of the South, and that didn't work so well. We're the same generation that was the greed generation of the nineties. We're the only generation that's lived those two extremes. And now I hope as we step into elderhood, we'll come back to center.

不同于我们父母那代的退休方式，我们要投身于有责任感的事业。看看那些保持活跃的人，他们接管委员会、付诸行动，发现自己仍能创造价值。这正是我对我们这代人的期许——运用才能切实提供帮助。而三十多岁的年轻人出生并成长在一个他们深知其脆弱性的世界，这与我们截然不同。

And rather than retiring like some of our parents did, step in to responsible things. Serebii's foiled these people who are staying engaged and they're taking over committees, and they're doing things, and they're seeing that they could be meaningful. And that's what I hope for our generation as we go step into elderhood, that that that that we we have the talents that we can really step in to help. And, you know, the people 30, they were born into and live in a world that they realize is is fragile. Very different than our generation.

我们总认为事情会自然解决，所以倾向于静待风暴过去，相信黎明终会到来。

It was always gonna work out. And so we have we have a tendency to just wait through this storm, and it'll be okay in the next dawn.

嗯。但愿如此。但愿。

Mhmm. If only. If only.

是的。但你知道，我们看到这种这种这种行动主义。它不是，你知道，有种感觉是，好吧，我们我们得做点什么，但一切都会好起来的。30岁以下的人没有这种感觉。他们明白情况非常脆弱，他们他们不会再忍受我们这代人所经历的一些事情。

Yeah. But we we you know, you see this this this activism. It isn't you know, there's a sense that, okay, we we we gotta do things, but it's gonna be okay. Under 30, they don't have that sense. They understand it's very fragile, and they're they're not gonna put up with some of the things that our generation has.

所以我认为很多时候我们可以打开大门，我们可以提供帮助。如果我们把这两代人团结起来，我想我们能做很多事。这这就是我对我们如何参与其中的希望。

And so I think a lot of times we can open the door, we can help. And if we bring these two generations together, I think we can do do a lot. And and that's my hope for how we become engaged.

我们稍后会提问。如果有人想提问，请写在这里，因为我们正在录制。那边有卡片。如果想提问就举手。史蒂夫，我讨厌问这个问题，因为它不够积极，但过程中肯定存在一些失败。

We're going to have questions in a minute. So if anyone would like to have a question, just write it on here because we are recording this. So right there, there are cards. So just raise your hand if you want to ask a question. Steve, I hate to ask this question because it's not the positive one, but there had to be some failures along the way.

在实现愿景的过程中，你不得不克服的障碍是什么？

What was something that was an obstacle that you had to overcome in terms of, you know, seeing your vision come to fruition?

嗯，失败，我我不认为这是合适的词，因为我们经历太多了。懂吗？当你意识到你只是在改变一个系统时。当我当我当我决定要开发时，我没意识到我们如此支离破碎。所以几乎每件事都是障碍。

Well, failures, I I don't think are are the words because we had so much. You know? When you realize you're just changing a system. When I when I when I decided I was gonna develop, I didn't realize that we were as broken as we are. And so absolutely almost everything.

你在Serengby看到的一切，50%在五十年前都是不被允许的。我们我们改变了更大区域的规划，这解决了很多问题。其他事情我得申请特批，当他们要求我做不正确的事时，我不得不违法。这包括联邦法律。问题严重到这种程度。

So everything you see at Serengby, 50% of it wasn't allowed fifty years ago. And and we we changed the zoning on the greater area, so that addressed a lot of it. I had to get variance on other things, And I had to break laws when they wanted me to do something that wasn't right. And and that included federal law. And and that's how serious it is.

知道吗？因为落基山研究所，我们有这些这些优秀的顾问。雨水处理是重大事项之一。二十五年前，我们还在用硬质管道把雨水排离场地。

You know? We we we because of the Rocky Mountain Institute, we had these these great consultants. And storm water was one of the big things. You know? Twenty five years ago, we were putting everything in hard pipes to get off of a site.

又是那些筒仓式的问题。监管的人只关心把它从现场弄走，而且必须保持干燥，但这根本做不到。还得在那边安装自围栏。但我后来明白了，天哪，所有的雨水都加速积聚，最后在某处爆发。这些支流全都一团糟，我们却对它们置之不理。

It was again of those silo things. The people regulating that only were worried about getting it off the site, and you had to have it dry and you couldn't do that. And and had to put self fences in down there. But but I learned that, my goodness, that all the storm water built up speed, and then it came out somewhere. And these were all of our tributaries that then were such a mess that we've turned our back on them.

就是那些轮胎和你知道的？我能看出来。你意识到这是正在发生的一些情况。所以我说，好吧，我们要做些不同的事。布鲁斯·弗格森写过相关的书。

That's where the tires and the you know? I can see you. You're aware that this is some of the what's going on. And so I I said, well, we're gonna do something different. Bruce Ferguson had written books about it.

我说，我们要这么做。他说，祝你好运。果然，我们雇用了Biohabitats公司。他们完成了全部设计，一整套生物滞留系统。结果我去的时候，他们说不行，不能这么做。

I said, we're gonna do this. He says, good luck. And so sure enough, we we we hired Biohabitats. They did all the design, a whole bio retention system. And sure enough, when I went down, no, you can't do this.

为什么不行？我需要APD的批准才能推进。他们说就是不行。于是我回去后又问，那我到底能做什么？

Why not? I needed that stamp from APD to move forward. And, well, you just can't do it. So I go back, came back. Well, what can I do?

嗯，有和你想要的差不多的方案。我们从来没做过。让我看看，在这边。是什么？

Well, there's something kinda like what you wanna do. We've never done it. Let's see. It's over here. What is it?

哦，是人工湿地。对，够接近了。给我那个许可吧。嗯。

Oh, it's constructed wetlands. Yeah. That's close enough. Give me that permit. Mhmm.

于是他们给了我许可。这样我就能拿到其他所有批文，可以继续推进了。推土机来了。我给区域主管打电话说，顺便建议你别派检查员来。嗯。

So they gave me the permit. That gave I could get all my other stamps, and I could get moving. The bulldozers came. I called the regional director, and I said, by the way, I I suggest you not send an inspector. Mhmm.

因为那个可怜的家伙不得不关停我。是啊。等他们动手时，我会召开记者会。嗯。我要让大家看看这有多愚蠢。

Because that poor person's gonna have to close me down. Yeah. And when they do, I'm calling a press conference. Mhmm. And I'm gonna show how stupid.

你们想让我砍光整片森林，然后人工建造生物滞留设施，而不是利用天然森林？整整七年他们都没派检查员来过，所以规则被修改了。但这次修改不是为了我。有足够多的人在讨论这事。而且——神奇的是，你们知道的，我当时真不确定他们会怎么做。

You want me to tear this entire forest down and then engineer bioretention instead of using the natural forest to do this? And they never sent an inspector for seven years, and so the rules were changed. Now they didn't change it for me. There was enough people talking about this. And and amazingly, you you know, I wasn't sure what they were gonna do.

要知道，这就是你，你知道的，你被逼到绝境了。但幸运的是，那时我没有任何债务。所以，懂吧，就算他们送我进监狱，没错，那都是我的责任。很少有开发商能有这种底气。但当他们重新修订规则时，我是40名被总部召集去审核所有新条款的人之一。

You know, this is where you're, you know, you're out there. But, luckily, at that point, I didn't owe any money. So, you know, if they put me in prison, yeah, I wasn't it was it was all my responsibility. Very few developers have that luxury. And but when they when they redid it, I was one of 40 people that went to headquarters to review all the new things.

现在你们看到洛杉矶正把水泥排水渠改造成生物滞留系统。亚特兰大还保留着老第四区的校区。生物滞留技术确实遍地开花。但二十年前我们做这事时可是实打实违法了。所以...有些事情就是这么讽刺。

And now you're seeing what LA's changing the big cement ditch to bioretention. Atlanta has the old Fourth Ward campuses. Bioretention is really happening everywhere. But we literally had to break the law twenty years ago to do what was made. So there's there's there's some things like that.

我们曾自建饮用水系统，结果亚特兰大环保局以规模太小为由反对。那次我输了。但我们确实建成了自己的污水处理系统。所有黑水都经过我们自行处理。虽然保持了生态平衡，不过我赢的比输的多得多。

We had our own potable water system and Atlanta fought us an EPD because it was too small. I lost that one. We did we did put in our own wastewater treatment. So we do all of our black water and we treat it. So it it we had a balance, but I won far more than I lost.

没错。这个嘛，我想到星巴克早期也有人总说'你们不能这样做'。而我们回答'已经做成了，正在推进下一步'。所以传统智慧有时候真的就只是——传统而已。

Yep. That's well, I I think about some of the things when we were in the early stages of Starbucks, people would say, well, you can't do that. And they said, well, we already did it. We're moving on to the next thing. So conventional wisdom sometimes is really just that, conventional.

关于跳出框架思考的理念。我想或许该让你读读这段文字，它很好地阐释了这个观点。

And the idea of out of the box thinking. I think I thought maybe I'd have you read this one paragraph here that kind of talks to that.

让我们看看。我在这里写些什么呢？好的。顺便说一下，在我意外成为开发者的职业生涯中，我发现当最初被告知某事不可行时，往往还是能找到可接受的解决方案。关键在于停下来、质疑、思考并突破限制，而不是盲目遵循规则。

Let's see. What what am I writing about here? Okay. Side note, in my career as an accidental developer, I found that there is often an acceptable solution after you're initially told it can't be done. The key is to stop, question, think, and push the limits instead of blindly following the rules.

当时，近乎天真的我并不理解传统的开发规则，但这反而成了一种优势。它让我能够跳出框架思考，并挑战那些我认为具有破坏性的做法。有时对某件事一无所知反而是种优势，因为对常规限制的无知可能会为创造性解决方案打开大门，而非阻碍你。我发现一个关键点是'给我看书面依据'。我想看具体条文，而很多时候只是因为人们认为'我们一直都是这么做的'。

At the time, nigh at at the time, naivety didn't understand the traditional development rules, but that turned out to be an asset. It allowed me to think outside the box and challenge practices I saw as destructive. Sometimes approaching something you knew nothing about can be an advantage because ignorance of the usual constraints might open the door to creative solutions rather than hold you back. I found a key thing that I found is show me the writing. I wanted to see where it was written, and many times it was because people just thought that that's what we've always done.

我想看到书面依据，因为很多时候我想弄清楚如何改变或绕过它。但没错，这就是我所说的思维定式。我们只是把自己深陷于惯常做法中，以至于无法看清。我们陷入了思维定式。

And I wanna see you in writing because I many times, I wanted to figure out how I was gonna change it or go around it. But yeah. So so this is what I call rut thinking that we're in. We're we just we we have just dug ourselves so deep into the way we have just done it that we can't even see. We're in a rut.

我有个观众提问。你如何看待这个模式的扩展？有计划培训其他组织或社区，或进行知识转移吗？

So I have a question from audience. How do you envision this model scaling? Are there plans to train other organizations or communities or transfer knowledge?

当然。这正是那本书的主题。要知道，我们最初并非以开发者身份起步。最棒的是三个女儿都带着她们的北方丈夫回来了，现在都参与业务。七个孙辈都在街头长大。

Absolutely. That's what the book was about. You know, we we didn't come as a developer. And, you know, one of the greatest things is all three daughters returned with their northern husbands, and they're all part of the business. And all seven grandkids are being raised, you know, on the streets.

但我们真正感兴趣的并非公司规模的扩大，而是分享我们的做法。所以我们组建了咨询团队，为开发者提供咨询，这很有趣。我们已经取得足够进展，有些地方正在破土动工，开始出售地块和房屋，人们正在入住。我们举办两种会议：一种叫'邻里场所营造'，为期两天半，每天都是相同的议程安排。

But we're really not interested in scaling the company as such, but we are interested in sharing what we're doing. So we've formed a consulting team, and so we consult with developers, and it's fun. We're far enough into it that some of these places are are breaking ground and starting to sell lots and sell houses and people are moving in. We do two conferences. One is what we call Nigran Placemaking, and this is set up to where it's two and a half days, and it's the same program every day.

你会来到Serengby，比如史蒂夫·科弗，他当时是富尔顿县规划负责人，去过麦迪逊、威斯康星，然后是萨拉索塔。他飞来分享经验，告诉你当提出这些想法时如何与当地政府沟通。我们还会请来土木工程师和环境专家讨论太阳能和地热能这些很多人不了解的领域。我们的建筑师则会讲解街道景观和住宅的设计方法。

And you you're coming to Serengby where people come in. For instance, Steve Cover, who was head of planning for Fulton County back then, he went to Madison, Wisconsin, then Sarasota. He flies in and and talks about what it's like and how you can talk with your local governments when you're coming up with these these ideas. And and and we bring in our civil engineers and and all the environmental people to talk about solar and and geothermal, which a lot of folks don't know. We we take our our architects and so they they talk about how we do the the streetscapes and the and the housing.

所以每个组成部分都是我们的业主协会。我们用两天半的时间带大家全面了解，真的很棒。有些参与者已经去过一些地方，现在我们看到从澳大利亚到苏格兰遍布全国，大概有20个州。

So it's every component, our HOA. And so we take people through that entire two and a half days. It's it's really cool. Some of the some of the we have some folks that are here have been to to some of those. And and and now we're seeing places all over the country from Australia to Scotland, you know, probably 20 states.

嗯，我们做过这个。我们还成立了亲生物研究所，与政策制定者和教育工作者讨论这些原则，他们确实处理很多这类事务。每年都会设立不同的项目和重点，目的是聚集思想领袖群体，让他们年复一年地来，与同行讨论这些事情。

Mhmm. We we've done this. We also have formed the biophilic institute to talk about a lot of these principles focusing with policymakers and educators that are really dealing with a lot of this stuff. And this is set up with a different program, a different focus every every year. And so it's it's to bring a thought leader group together that that come maybe year after year to to sort of have that those peers that you can discuss some of these these these these things.

所以这两件事。然后这本书的部分目的是传播理念——不是每个人都能搬到塞伦贝，也不是每个人都能买一千英亩地进入绿地。但如果我们都看看能在自家后院、阳台花盆里做些什么，只需立足当下就能改变世界。嗯，我是说，有多少人能想到自己会生活在一个无烟社会？

So those are the two things. And then the book is part of to get get this out that that not everyone can move to Serembi, not everyone can can can buy a thousand acres and go into the greenfield. But if if we just all looked at what we can do in our own backyard, our our our own planter box on our deck, we could change the world by just stepping into where we are. Mhmm. I mean, how many people I can tell that you know, how many people here thought they'd ever live in a smoke free society?

那并不是因为企业或政府决定了应该发生什么。而是因为一个人曾对空乘人员诉说被困在烟雾中的痛苦，他建议：‘为什么不和航空公司商量，把最差的座位——反正没人要的后排——设为无烟区，看看会怎样？’结果呢？大家都抢着坐后排。

That that wasn't because corporations or governments decided that what's what should happen. Because one man was talking to airline stewardesses about how terrible it was to be trapped in that. And he said, why don't you talk to the airlines about making the worst seats nonsmoking, the ones in the back that nobody wants anyhow, and just see what happens? Well, guess what? Everybody wanted those back seats.

于是他们逐渐把无烟区前移，直到覆盖整个机舱。餐饮业也发生了同样的事，想想看——你还记得吗？最初只是后角落的五张座位，突然整个餐厅都禁烟了。所以只要我们开始改变身边能改变的事，就能推动变革。

And so suddenly, they moved it up, up, up until it was the whole place. Same thing happened in the restaurant industry. Think, well, you remember. Five seats in the back corner and all of a sudden, you're you're no smoking. So we can change things if we start changing where we are and what we can do something about.

这就是我写这本书的原因，希望人们能接受。

And that's what I wrote the book and hopefully people will take.

这是个关于如何帮助孩子在旧金山找到归属感的问题。一个对科技不感兴趣的12岁孩子，该如何找到自己的群体？

So this is a this is a question about what suggestions do you have to help kids feel like they belong in San Francisco? How does a 12 year old who isn't interested in tech going to find their tribe?

嗯，你知道的，大自然很重要，尤其对那些不热衷科技的人。那些自然俱乐部在哪里？如果你不熟悉'儿童与自然网络'，这是一个完整的组织，源自理查德·卢的书。在旧金山和奥克兰有个活跃的团体，他们有网页，有各种研究。去联系这些团体吧。

Well, that's you know, nature is a big thing, especially if you're not into tech. And where are those nature clubs? If you're not familiar with Children and Nature Network, it's a complete organization that came out of Richard Lou's book. And there there there's there's an active group in in San Francisco and Oakland, and there's a webpage, there's all sorts of research. Connect to some of those groups.

我们有家长团体和家庭教育者真正在实践自然联结。通过连接这些孩子，真的能改变人生。我们这么做至关重要。

You've got parents groups and homeschooling that are really dealing with nature connection. It can really change lives by connecting these kids. And it's essential that we do that.

好的，这里有个关于资金的问题。在能够通过房屋销售产生收入之前，你们是如何承担土地购置、场地开发等巨额前期成本的？无论你们怎么做到的，都要为你们喝彩，感谢你们将这个精彩案例公之于众。

Okay, here's a question of how the dollars and cents. How are you able to capitalize the substantial upfront costs of land acquisition, site development, long prior to the ability to generate the revenues of home sales. And however you did it, kudos to you and thank you for getting this wonderful example out to the public eye.

嗯，我们能做到真是奇迹。你知道吗？有时候我都想不通。首先，你知道，那是我们的农场，我们没有任何负债。

Well, it's amazing we did it. You know? Sometimes I wonder how in the world. You know? First of all, you know, it it it was our farm and I didn't owe anything on it.

所以我当时在处理土地问题，算是占了先机。我们改变了分区规划，得到了很多精彩的社论支持，我觉得很棒。事实上，我们有些媒体报道，因为我女儿正要从康奈尔大学毕业。我们登上了《今日美国》头版，因为人们一直在关注这个独特项目。

So I I was dealing with land, so I I was ahead of the game there. We changed the zoning and had a lot of great editorials, and I thought, yeah. This is, you know, this is great. In fact, that's that's you know, we we had some of that press, and that's why my daughter was graduating from Cornell. And and there we were on the front page of the USA Today because people have been following this unique thing.

我当时想，她肯定会'哇'一声。爸爸说要把房子建在树林里。这真是...你知道吗？她因此决定回家。

And I thought and she wow. Dad said he was putting houses in the in the woods. This is something. You know? She decided to come home from that.

但我们获得了大量媒体报道。所以我知道自己会找到投资者。在餐馆业负债一辈子后，我绝不愿再次负债。于是我做了这些精美的方案册，寄给我认识的可能投资的人，但没人响应。

But so so we had a lot of press. So I just knew that I was gonna, you know, find investors. You know? After being in debt my whole life in with the restaurants, I wasn't I wasn't gonna go into debt again. And so I made these really great boxes and sent out to people that I knew were investing, would do something, and nobody took me up.

人们出来查看我在树林里种的 marijuana（大麻）。我知道我发现了什么。还有 Ray Anderson，不知道你认不认识 Ray Anderson，就是那个做地毯方块的家伙，他是美国第一个让公司实现碳中和的实业家，曾是我的朋友，正是他引入了落基山研究所。在那段时期里，Ray 以他特有的方式巧妙地推动我跨越了激情的门槛。突然间，我不再纠结于事情是否合理。

People came out and see where my marijuana was in the woods. I knew I found something. And and and Ray Anderson, I don't know if you know the Ray Anderson, but the the the carpet square guy, the first US industrialist to put his company out of carbon had been a friend, and and he's the one that brought the Rocky Mountain Institute in. And somehow in that whole period, Ray had cleverly pushed me through that threshold of passion as only Ray could do. And suddenly, I had stopped looking at what was made sense.

我意识到必须这么做。于是我开始变卖资产、调动资源，以便能先开发出40块地皮。第一块地成本最高，因为要处理污水和供水等各种问题。当时我确信自己疯了，但必须这么做。就像我说的，我们原计划要建那四栋楼。

I realized I had to do it. And so I started selling and leveraging my resources so that I could put the first 40 lots in. Now the first lot's the most expensive because I had to deal with wastewater and water and everything. And I was convinced that I was nuts, but I had to do it. And so, you know, as I mentioned, we were gonna, you know, have those four buildings.

但 Pete 的朋友们一直跟着我们。有次为了控制客流量，我们在几间客房成立了民宿，对外宣称是提供住宿加早餐。于是周末开始有人过来，大家都说这主意很棒。其实他们要么是朋友，要么是朋友的朋友，我觉得只是客套话。

And but, you know, Pete's friends had been following us. And at one point, we we'd, you know, to kinda control the guests in in some of our guest houses, I we formed a bed and breakfast or said said we were bed and breakfast. So people were coming out on the weekends. And everybody said, oh, it's a great idea. Well, they were friends or one removed from friends, and I thought they're just being nice.

但我记下他们的地址，寄出了宣传单，告知我们即将破土动工。这次推出40块混合用途地块，包括生活工作区、小屋和庄园，并标明了价格。表示接受预订后，48小时内全部订完。哇。

But I took their address, and we sent them out this flyer that we actually were gonna be breaking ground. And and and here were 40 lots, and it was a mix of live works, cottages, estates, and and here's the price. And if you'd be interested, we're taking reservations. And 48 hours later, they were all reserved. Wow.

于是我明白，尽管分析师和地产界都觉得我疯了，但市场已经准备好了。我提价20%放出另外二十块地，六周后售罄。现在必须加快进度，要找建筑商。我们真的动工了，全部建成并售出。

So I realized even though the analysts and the real estate community thought I was nuts, the market was ready. I raised the prices 20% and released the other twenty, and six weeks later, they were all gone. So now I just had to hurry up. I had to get a builder. We were really going, and I got them all, you know, got them all done and sold.

现在回想起来很棒。但当时卖完就没库存了，所以我们忙着准备下40块地。我用赚到的钱继续投资，因为不想负债。十分钟后冲刺完成。

And and and now, you know, that was great. So but I had to do I didn't have anything to sell. So we, you know, we were busy getting the next 40 lots. And, you know, I wasn't I took that money and did that because I wasn't gonna go in debt. Dashing through ten minutes later, got done.

有了地块规划就能卖。等所有手续完成，有了具体地址，就可以出售了。

You get it with plat. You know, that's when you can sell it. That's when everything's done. You got an address for it. You can sell it.

你拿到了一份地契。我找来的那个建筑商，他的合同里写明了拥有优先购买权。这太好了。于是我告诉他我还有40块地皮，他说‘太好了，我们全要了’。

You got a deed. And so the the the builder I'd gotten in, he he had in his contract that he had the first right of refusal. And so well, that's great. So I let him know I had another 40 lots, and he said, great. We'll take all 40.

哇，当时我手里只持有这些地皮24小时。这比经营餐厅省心多了，对吧？天啊，真是...

Wow. Now I only had them twenty four hours. This is a lot easier than restaurant thinkers. Right? And so and so, oh, man.

我得赶紧搞定下40块地皮。我们处理完这些后，又用同样的方式操作，那些地皮分布在两个不同区域。我的建筑商说‘这块区域的我全要了’。

I gotta get the next 40 done. You know? So we get we we we get those. We got them done, and I had to do that same thing, and they were kind of in two different areas. And so my builder says, oh, I'll take all of them here in this section.

其实还有第二页地契。他知道存在第二页，但之前没关注，因为那通常是我们说的‘十字路口’地段。我不想让他垄断市场，所以还联系了其他三家建筑商。等到截止时间他没表态，我就立即联系了其他家说‘好，就按这个来’。

There was a second page. Now he knew that second page was there, but they just weren't focused on because it was often what we call the crossroads. And and so I said, because I didn't want them to have the monopoly, and I had three other builders lined up. And so when he when the the the the hour hit that he didn't say he was taking them, I called the other I said, okay. Here.

你们想要的地块，每家分五块十块的，他们就这样接手了。结果第二天他又打电话说‘顺便把剩下的也给我们吧’，我说‘已经没了’。这生意太轻松了。

The lots you wanted, you each get you know, you're you're five, ten. So they took those. And, of course, another day went by, he called and said, by the way, we want those others too. I go, they're not. This is so easy.

天啊知道吗？我太爱这行了。但转念一想，每次40块地这么操作太慢了，猴年马月才能做完。

God. You know? I love this business. So I thought, well, you know, I just can't keep doing it 40 at a time. It's gonna take us forever to do this.

我决定贷款一次性开发120块地。我那四家建筑商都说‘太好了，我们全包了’。你懂的，就是那种‘完美’的回应。

I'll go ahead and go into debt, and I'll do a 120 lots all at once. And my four builders said, great. We'll take them all. You know? We'll say, great.

我们当时都与他们签订了拆除时间表的合同，并在2007年将这些推向市场。其中两家建筑商破产了，两家停止了建设，我们撕毁了所有合同。但你知道，我们经历过经济衰退。在餐厅行业，我们从未察觉，因为我们提供了极高的性价比。所以在那期间，我还在继续建造餐厅。

So we all had contracts with their with their takedown schedule, and we brought those to market at the 2007. Two of those builders went bankrupt and two quit building, and we tore up all those contracts. But, you know, we've lived through recessions. In the restaurant, we never knew it because we were a great value. So we were you know, I built restaurants during during that.

你知道吗？我当时有36个月的贷款。我们都挺过来了，对吧？我是说，事情总会解决的。

You know? And I had thirty six month loan. We've lived through this. Right? I mean, it it always works out.

对吧？2010年2月。哦，天哪。

Right? 02/2010. Oh my goodness.

晚上睡得着觉吗？

Getting a lot of sleep at night?

当时情况就像，是啊，接下来会发生什么？银行变得更愚蠢了。于是我们开始了一段全新的旅程——我接手了五块地皮，把它们分割成十五份来建造小户型住宅。我还找了一个刚刚停工的建筑商。

You know, it was like, yeah, what what's gonna happen here? The banks got stupider. And so there was a whole journey there that that, you know, we started walking out. You know, I I I took five lots that that you know, and and put put in I turned them into 15 so I could have a small house. And we we had you know, and I got one of the builders who had just stopped building.

我对他说：'你要建一个900平方英尺的样板房，配备地热和太阳能系统，能承接所有这类合同。'于是我们开始行动，因为当人们听说塞雷比地区有26.5万美元的房子时，都觉得挺划算。我最喜欢的故事是一对夫妇来看房时说：'我们原本考虑买第二套房，但觉得时机不太明智。'虽然他们没直说，但26.5万的价格实在太诱人了。

I said, you'll build a model of what a 900 square foot house looks like, and it's geothermal and solar ready, you can build all these, all the contracts. And so we started stepping out because when people thought, gee, a house for $265,000 at Serebi, that's pretty good. And and my favorite story is a couple that came out and said, you know, we were thinking about a second home, but it just didn't seem the wise time to do it. But they they didn't say it this way, but it was 265. I mean, you know, it'll be great.

他们开始看户型图后说：'这有点小，能把卧室墙外移五英尺吗？'不行啊，窗外五英尺就是地界线了。

And so they start looking at the plan. They well, this is kinda small. Could could you could you move the bedroom wall out five feet? No. It's five feet outside the window, you know, the the the property line.

哦，我们确实很喜欢。嗯，你们还有另一块能俯瞰灯光的地皮吗？是的，这边有一块。结果他们花了28万美元买下这块地，又投入50万美元请建筑师设计。所以这就是人们的看法。

Oh, we do love it. Well, do you have another lot that's kinda, like, overlooked the light? Well, yeah, there's one over here. Well, they ended up buying dirt for 280,000, spent a half a million dollars on architects. So it it it's here the perception.

正是这类事情让我们开始抽身而出。我们经历了一段旅程，你知道吗？我们进行了资本重组。有段时间我以为会失去一切。

And so it was things like that that we started stepping out of it. So so we had a journey. You know? We we recapitalized. At one point, I thought I was gonna lose everything.

我们经历了一段引入机构资金来发展的旅程。五年前，我们重新资本化，使家族重新获得了多数控制权。几乎所有投资挽救Serembi并让其发展的人，现在都住在Serembi。这真的很酷，非常令人愉快。

We we we had a journey bringing institutional money in to grow. And five years ago, we recapitalized and brought it all back in to where the the family's now a majority in control again. And almost everyone who invested to save Serembi and let it grow actually lives at Serembi. And and so that that that that's that that that's pretty cool. Very enjoyable.

我们经历了整个财务风波，这很不可思议。几乎所有和我规模相当、在那次经济衰退中受困的企业都没能挺过来。所以我非常非常感激。当然，值得一提的是，那位银行家——你可以想象——他掌管我们的账户，态度强硬。我们经历了整个过程，最后他们做出了更愚蠢的决定。我最终以极低的价格买断了我们的贷款。

So we've been through that whole financial thing, and it's it's amazing. Almost everyone else my size that got caught in the middle of that recession, they they they didn't stay standing. So I'm I'm very, very thankful. Of course, the the big side note, the banker that we were just you can imagine as far as that we were that was had our account and just was hard nosed, and, man, we were going through the whole thing that, you know, we we end up you know, they got stupider. And so I finally met their stupidity and bought them out for bought our loan for just a fraction.

那是一段非常艰难的时期，我甚至说：‘听着，我有投资者帮忙，这就是我们要买断贷款的条件。’我锁上了房地产办公室的门，告诉他们要么接受这个买断方案，要么我们就彻底退出。他们很顽固，但最终还是接受了，因为我不是在开玩笑。我们原定上午10点签署文件，凌晨4点我接到电话，那位强硬的银行家说他今天辞职了。

But and so it was one of those very difficult times to the point that I said, well, this is know, I've got an investor to help us, and this is where we're gonna buy the loan. And I've locked the real estate office, and and you either take this this buyout or or or we're gone. And, boy, they were tough, but they ended up taking it because, you know, I wasn't kidding. And we're selling those papers at 10:00. And at 04:00, I got a call that the banker who had been tough said, I want you to know I quit today.

他说：‘我要加入骑兵队。’后来他过来加入我们，现在是我的一位建筑融资商。人生旅程真是奇妙。绝对是的，我会找到答案的。

And he said, I'm he said, I've you know, I'm joining the Calvary. And he came over, and he's now one of my builders, financing builders who had gone in. So so it's it's amazing the journeys you go on. Absolutely. I'll find that.

好的。我们还有几个问题，几分钟后就要结束了。史蒂夫，你能再谈谈社区主街吗？它们的角色是什么？有什么不同之处？

Alright. We've got a few more questions and then we're gonna wrap up in just a a few minutes. Steve, can you say more about the neighborhood Main Streets? What is their role? How do they vary?

你们招揽的是哪些类型的企业？需要我详细说明吗？还是你已经完全了解了？

What types of businesses are you getting? Do you want me to break it down? Or you got it all?

不，我想我明白了。你知道，美国主街至关重要。它们已经大量消失，特别是在我们的乡村社区。

No. I think I've got it. So, you know, Main Street America is vital. You know? And and and and and they've disappeared a lot, especially in our rural communities.

你看，我们乡村地区、农业社区，大型农业企业并不支持美国主街。这是最令人痛心的事情之一。我们派大学教育者去那些小学校，告诉他们成功就是去拿个学位，结果他们毕业后家乡却无处可去。我们剥夺了美国乡村人民的生计，以及那些本应拥有高管住宅、承担税负和服务的中坚力量，然后我们还在疑惑愤怒从何而来。我们必须让美国主街重现生机。

You know, we've we've the countryside, the farm communities, big ag doesn't support Main Street America. It's one of the saddest things. And we've sent college educators into those small schools and told them success is to go get a degree, and then there's no place back home for them to go. And we've stripped rural America of of their livelihood and and what I call the people that would have executive housing that pays the taxes and the services, and we wonder where the anger is. We've got to bring Main Street America back.

而现在，这正是人工智能和远程工作的优势所在。我们不必都挤在市中心这样的经济中心工作。我们可以搬到小镇，既能经营事业，又能养育孩子，让主街重现繁荣。我认为这意义重大。另外值得注意的是农业板块的问题。

And and and now that's one of the advantages of AI and and working other places. We don't all have to work in these in these big economic centers like downtowns. We can move to these small towns and still have businesses and raise our kids and bring Main Street back. So I I think that's huge. And interesting, the other thing is that's so serious is is the ag piece.

能让主街复兴的最大因素之一是农贸市场和各种农业活动。有些解决方案其实就是回归基本生活方式的常识。记得在经济衰退期间，人们觉得我把蓝眼菊种在树林里是疯了。他们问：'你是怎么让这么多人来这里做生意的？'

And one of the biggest things that revives Main Street is farmers markets and and various farm things. So so so some of these solutions are just common sense basic ways to live, to come back to a to a more normal thing. And and I find when you when you set, you know, during the recession, people have thought I was nuts to put the blue eyed daisy in out in the woods. Came I remember in the middle of the recession. So they said, man, how are you how are you getting all these people operating businesses out here?

你看，这里没有空置的店面。他们问：'谁在负责你们的租赁？'我说没人负责。他们难以置信，觉得我疯了。

There you know, there there's no empty storefronts. What who who's handling your leasing? And I said, well, nobody. How are you getting all these people? And, of course, they had been so sort of difficult in thinking I was nuts.

我当时随口说了句话，但确实有点道理。我说：'我会思考我们需要什么，为此冥想。几周后，他们就带着蓝眼菊出现了。'事情大致就是这样发生的。

And I I said something sort of offhanded, but it's really kinda true. I said, well, I think about what we need. I meditate about it. And a couple weeks later, they show up with a blue eyed daisy. But it's kind of what happened.

我们传递了一个地方和一种态度，人们正在响应。这一点在我们的健康社区尤为明显。你知道，我们发现了一段完整的旅程。我签署了一些不便透露的内容，但我们曾与梅奥诊所关系密切，并通过全球健康峰会结识了他们。他们渴望创新。

We have sent a place and an attitude and people are showing up. And and that's especially true in in our our health community. You know, I we we we found, you know, a whole journey. I I think I've signed some, you know, things that I won't talk about it, but we were close to to Mayo and, you know, and met them through the Global Wellness Summit. They they wanted to be innovative.

在那家庞大机构的彩虹角落，有五名医生正在进行创新尝试。当我们深入到最后阶段时，他们正在签署所有文件。那时我已经开始建造那栋大楼。他们不得不面对一个事实：他们从事的是疾病产业，而非健康产业。

There are five doctors doing some innovative things over in the rainbow corner of that huge institution. And when we got down to the end, they were signing all the papers. I'd already started building that that building. They they had to face the fact that they're in sick business. They're not they're not in health.

这就是外面正在发生的事情，太糟糕了。我在华盛顿参加全球经济峰会时，约翰·汉考克的负责人发言说：'我们是唯一真正关心你们健康与生存的机构'，他说'其他所有人...'

And and this is this is what's going on out there. It's it's terrible. I I was in in in Washington for the for the Global Economic Summit, and the the head of John Hancock was talking. And he said, we're the only people that's really interested in keeping you healthy and alive. He says, everybody else.

他说95%的资金用于疾病治疗，只有5%用于预防。这一切都相互关联，无论是我们的主要街道还是生命线。我们该如何改变这个系统？所以我们刚创建了这个人们向往的场所，聚集了这些从业者。

And he says 95% of our of our money is going to sick care, and we're spending 5% on prevention. And and so, you know, this all ties together, whether it's our main street or our vital. How how do we how do we change this system? And so we have just created this place that people wanna come. We have these practitioners.

我们拥有27位从传统到替代疗法的从业者。有对年轻夫妇，她最初学药剂学，后来意识到自己是在毒害人们就辞职了。她转向第二热爱的事业——没错，是时尚。

We have 27 practitioners from traditional to alternative. We had a young couple. She she was started out in pharmacy, and she realized she was poisoning people and quit. She went to her second passion her second yeah. It's fashion.

她的热爱，时尚。她在洛杉矶遇见丈夫，但始终心怀梦想。她说自己有点书呆子气，总爱深究标签上的化学成分。他们梦想着：为什么不能有家健康药房？

Her passion, fashion. And and and she she met her husband in LA and but she kept dreaming. She said, I was kind of a nerd. She says, I just go down rabbit holes on chem on on labels and chemicals and what's in them. And they dreamed about why couldn't you have a pharmacy that that was a healthy pharmacy.

他们读到关于Serembi的报道，协商租下场地，今年初开了家无化学制剂药房。从清洁用品开始，传统药房能看到的东西这里都没有化学添加。他们没意识到——我们都没意识到——这是全美首家这样的药房。

And they read about Serembi called negotiated lease on a space and earlier this year opened a nonchemical pharmacy. And it's from cleaning so everything you would see in a traditional would not chemical. They didn't realize it. None of us realized it. It's the first one in the nation.

这些全都是这些东西。你看到的多数物品，无论是药品、毒品，甚至是维生素。那些标榜健康或有机的产品。里面含有大量化学物质。他们教会我一件事，你知道吗，如果其中存在一个漏洞，那就是调味剂——橙味或柠檬味添加剂——而本质上，它们不过是掺入的一堆化学物质。

There it's it's it's it's all these things. Most of these things you see on on drug or on on drugs, even vitamins. The things we that have healthy or or organic. There's a lot of chemicals. One thing they taught me, you know, if it there there's one loophole in there and it's it's flavoring, orange flavoring or lemon flavoring, and you deep down, it's a bunch of chemicals they've got in it.

所以她是...我是说，他们简直太出色了。这对有趣的夫妇。他们能找到我们，仅仅因为我们预留了位置。我从未设想过会这样。我本不可能遇到这样的人。

And and so she I mean, they're just brilliant. This this fun couple. They found their way to us just because we have set a place. So we haven't gone I I could have never imagined. I could have never found somebody like that.

当初我也不明白自己为何追寻这个。是的。所以如果你...你知道，如果凭心和意愿行事，你会进入一种流动状态，人们自然会出现。而我们身处一个充满分析的世界，发自内心的事物永远不会在分析的世界里显现。

I didn't know why I was looking for it. Yeah. So if you if, you know, if if you operate from your heart and intention, I find you're in a flow and people just show up. And so we're in such a world of of of of analytics that things from the heart never show up in an analytical world.

我们接近尾声了，但我想谈点实际的。你在每章末尾都放置了二维码，是的，它们关联章节内容。聊聊这个创意的灵感来源，以及它如何引导读者。毕竟，一切要从身边开始。

We're getting close to the end, but I wanna a practical thing. Something you did at the end of each chapter was put QR codes Yes. On and it it referenced things in your chapter. Talk a little about what the inspiration for this was and and how it kind of informs your reader. Because, again, stay start in your own backyard.

这些内容是否能激发他们的行动灵感？

Are these things that give them ideas for what they can do?

没错。这既是手册也是书。它不一定要从头读到尾。你可以根据需求翻阅。希望园艺俱乐部、业主协会可能会把它当作讨论手册购买。

That's right. So this this is as much a manual as in a book. This isn't something that's intended to necessarily read from cover to cover. You can see where it applies. You you you know, hopefully, you know, garden clubs, HOAs, homeowners associations might actually buy these as manuals for for discussions and books.

我们设置二维码的原因：一是书里放不下大量精美图片，通过扫码可以查看；二是新兴研究不断涌现，我们能持续更新这些内容作为指南，让你了解最新动态。要知道，我们正在觉醒，相关研究层出不穷。

And we put the QR code. One, there's a lot of great pictures that we couldn't put in the book. And so this way, you can go to the QR codes and see it. We're there's there's emerging research, and so we're able to keep those updated with some of the research that's coming out to help be a guide so you can see some of the latest things that are that that are happening. You know, we're we're waking up, and there's a lot of research out there.

因此，我们实际上正在将建筑环境中的诸多问题联系起来，这些问题正是我们当前抱怨并生活其中的症结所在。

And so we're actually starting to connect the dots on a lot of the issues on the built environment is causing a lot of the problems that we complain about and that we're living with today. Well,

在接近尾声时，我想请你朗读书中那段话——虽然你已经从多个角度阐述过创作初衷，但这段话堪称绝佳的总结。

as we get to the close, I thought I'd have you read one of the paragraphs in your book that kind of I think you've talked about many aspects of why you did this. But I think this paragraph does a pretty good job of summarizing it.

看到这个很有趣，毕竟我们去年十月就提交了稿子。哦，我刚刚说到哪了...天啊。如果你已经读到这里，希望你能感到振奋。虽然本书聚焦于社区建设，但我更大的写作目标是传递关于自主决定与自力更生的理念。

You know, it's fun to see this because, of course, we turned this in a year ago last October. So, oh, what did I you come back. I I worry about, oh my god. So if you've read this far, I hope you're feeling inspired. While this book has focused on building a community, my larger goal is writing it has been to send a message about self determination and self reliance.

当我们对生活中的某些方面不满时，完全可以主动出击加以改善。很多时候只需换个角度看问题，运用常识性思维。正如书中前文所述，改变世界始于改变自家后院——无论是字面意义还是隐喻层面。当我领悟这个真理时，它解放了我，愿你也获得同样的觉醒。谢谢。

When we aren't happy with something in our life, we can take charge and change it for the better. Many times, it's a matter of looking at the situation from a different angle and applying common sense thinking. As I mentioned earlier in the book, changing the world begins with changing one's own backyard, literally and metaphorically. When I internalized this truth, it liberated me, and I wish the same for you. Thank you.

这真是...太精彩了。

That was that was brilliant.

感谢《从自家后院开始：用根本常识改变居住环境》的作者史蒂夫·尼格兰。我是霍华德·沃尔纳，祝各位晚安，保重。

Our thanks to Steve Nigran, author of Starting Your Own Backyard, Transforming Where We Live With Radical Common Sense. I'm Howard Walner. Have a good evening and take care.

谢谢你霍华德，感谢

Thank you, Howard. Thank you,

感谢大家的到来。

Thank you all for coming.

是的。感谢霍华德今晚的主持。史蒂文，我代表联邦俱乐部和国际事务部，感谢您及您的组织所做的极其重要的工作，并帮助我们延续了一百二十二年来举办启迪性对话的传统。太棒了。

Yeah. Thank you, Howard, for for moderating this evening. And, Steven, on behalf of the Commonwealth Club and World Affairs, I wish to thank you for the extremely important work you and your organization are doing and for helping us maintain our tradition of hosting enlightening conversations for over a hundred and twenty two years. Beautiful.

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