芝加哥大主教就移民执法问题发表看法

过去一年最具代表性的画面之一，是一个戴着墨镜、身着迷彩服的蒙面男子站在城市街头。

One of the images that has defined this past year is that of a masked man on a city street wearing mirrored sunglasses and dressed in camouflage.

这就是联邦ICE和边境巡逻特工在全国各城市——如夏洛特、洛杉矶和芝加哥——出现时的装束。

That is how federal ICE and border patrol agents showed up in cities across the country, Cities like Charlotte, Los Angeles, and Chicago.

这些特工遭遇了当地居民为保护社区民众而发起的各种抵抗。

These agents have been met with all kinds of resistance from residents trying to protect people in their communities.

所以我们几乎总有人在社区里巡逻。

So we have people almost always patrolling the neighborhood.

这是芝加哥的盖比·冈萨雷斯。

That's Gabe Gonzalez in Chicago.

他是基层抵抗组织'保护罗杰斯公园'的联合创始人。

He is the cofounder of a grassroots resistance organization called Protect Rogers Park.

今年秋天，当芝加哥面临严厉的移民打击政策时，该组织通过社区巡逻、监视ICE探员活动并向居民传递信息，试图增加联邦探员执行任务的难度。

This fall, when the city was facing an aggressive immigration crackdown, the group tried to make it harder for federal agents to do their jobs by patrolling neighborhoods, monitoring the activity of ICE agents, and spreading word to residents.

现在他们正在教导其他城市的人们如何效仿。

Now they are teaching people in other cities how to do the same.

他们的行动已经激化了一部分人，这种影响需要一代人的时间才能消除。

They've radicalized a set of people through their own actions, and that'll be a generation before that goes away.

对特朗普政府移民执法行动的抵制来自各方，包括美国天主教主教会议。

Resistance to the Trump administration's immigration enforcement efforts has come from all sorts of places, including the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

当我们看到民众因种族定性和移民执法问题而生活在恐惧与焦虑中时，我们深感不安。

We are disturbed when we see among our people a climate of fear and anxiety around questions of profiling and immigration enforcement.

我们对当前移民议题的辩论现状及对移民的污名化感到痛心。

We are saddened by the state of contemporary debate and the vilification of immigrants.

这段来自近期全美各地天主教主教的联合视频，是罕见集体发声的一部分，呼吁'终结非人化言论与暴力'。

This is from a recent video featuring Catholic bishops from across the country, part of a rare collective message calling for the, quote, end to dehumanizing rhetoric and violence.

这种情绪一直传递到教会的最高层。

That sentiment goes all the way to the very top of the church.

这是教皇利奥上个月对记者发表的讲话。

Here's pope Leo speaking to reporters last month.

我们必须寻求以人道方式对待民众，尊重他们与生俱来的尊严。

We have to look for ways of treating people humanely, treating people with the dignity that they have.

如果有人在美国非法居留，是有处理方式的。

If people are in The United States illegally, there are ways to treat that.

有法庭。

There are courts.

有司法体系。

There's a system of justice.

想想看。

Consider this.

天主教会正在介入一个高度党派化的问题。

The Catholic church is wading into a deeply partisan issue.

稍后我们将采访芝加哥大主教，探讨其中缘由。

Coming up, we will talk to the archbishop of Chicago about why that is.

这里是NPR，我是斯科特·德特罗。

From NPR, I'm Scott Dettrow.

嘿。

Hey.

嘿。

Hey.

我是《一分钟访谈》的布列塔尼·卢斯。

It's Brittany Luce from It's Been a Minute.

你的语音信箱已满。

Your voice mailbox is full.

好吧。

Okay.

我承认。

I'll admit it.

我的也是。

So is mine.

所以我在这里给你留言。

So I'm leaving this for you here.

我想感谢你今年对NPR的支持。

I wanted to say thank you for supporting NPR this year.

如果你还未捐赠，现在行动为时不晚。

And if you haven't given yet, it's not too late.

方便时请给我回电。

Give me a callback when you can.

请访问 donate.npr.org。

Visit donate.npr.org.

这是电视、电影和音乐的辉煌之年，我们正在精选年度最佳作品，包括K-pop恶魔猎人、《罪人》和《人生切割术》。

It's been a great year for TV, movies, and music, and we are highlighting the best of the best, including k pop demon hunters, sinners, and severance.

我们将畅谈年度精彩瞬间，包括你可能错过的一些最佳流行文化内容。

We're talking about our favorite moments of the year, including some of the best pop culture you might have missed.

在NPR应用或任意播客平台收听《流行文化欢乐时光》。

Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在《等等别告诉我》节目中，知名演员回忆籍籍无名的岁月，比如佩德罗·帕斯卡讲述当服务员的压力。

On Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, famous actors remember their days of obscurity, like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a waiter.

那种以恰当方式满足所有人需求的流程性劳动，你知道的，第一幕，倒水之类的。

The logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner, the, you know, the act one, the water.

第二幕，饮品时间。

Act two, the drink.

在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《Wait Wait Don't Tell Me》。

Listen to Wait Wait on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》栏目。

It's consider this from NPR.

今年秋天，特朗普政府启动了'中途岛突袭行动'，在芝加哥展开了强硬的移民打击行动。

This fall, the Trump administration launched operation Midway Blitz, an aggressive immigration crackdown campaign in Chicago.

此举引发了全市各社区的强烈抗议。

It was met with outcry from communities across the city.

家庭正被拆散。

Families are being torn apart.

孩子们生活在恐惧中，社区因移民突袭和拘留行动而动荡不安。

Children are left in fear, and communities are shaken by immigration raids and detentions.

这些行为深深伤害了我们城市的灵魂。

These actions wound the soul of our city.

让我明确一点。

Let me be clear.

教会与移民站在一起。

The church stands with migrants.

这是芝加哥大主教布莱斯·苏皮奇枢机。

That is cardinal Blaise Supich, the archbishop of Chicago.

随着2025年接近尾声，而移民执法行动仍在全美其他地区持续，我们想了解此刻他与美国天主教会对移民问题的立场。

As 2025 comes to an end and immigration enforcement operations continue elsewhere in the country, we wanted to get a sense of where he and the US Catholic church stand on immigration in this moment.

库皮奇枢机，感谢您接受我们的采访。

Cardinal Cupich, thanks for talking to us.

谢谢你，斯科特。

Thank you, Scott.

您对政府的移民政策发表了非常明确的批评，谴责了这些政策在芝加哥及其他地区实施的诸多方面。

You have really spoken clearly about the administration's immigration policies, denouncing many aspects of them and the way they've been carried out in Chicago and elsewhere.

同样值得注意的是，美国主教会议整体上也表现得如此直言不讳。

What's also notable to me is how outspoken the US bishops conference as a whole has been.

为什么会这样？

Why is that?

首先，必须牢记我们在声明中指出的：每个州都有义务和权利保卫其边境，但执行方式应当考虑到许多人已在此世代生活的事实，并尊重他们的人性尊严。

First of all, it's important to keep in mind that, we said in our statement that every state has an obligation and a right to secure its borders, but it should be done in such a way, especially when you take into consideration that people have been here for generations in a way that respects your humanity.

我们发现，不加区分的大规模驱逐行为确实违背了保护人类尊严的原则，这正是我们发声的原因。

We have found that the indiscriminate mass deportation of people does violate that principle of human dignity being protected, and that is why we have spoken out.

能详细谈谈这点吗？

Can you talk more about that?

因为我与其他红衣主教交流时也提到，某人可能非法居留，依法应被遣返。

Because I've had this conversation with other cardinals as well that that somebody can be in the country illegally, and there can be a removal process.

他们可以依据法律被驱逐出美国。

And they could be removed from The United States following the law.

但当前执行过程中存在激进策略、残酷的社交媒体宣传等手段。

And that there is a way that this has gone about in terms of an aggressive tactic, cruel social media, and other, you know, messaging about it.

对你和其他人而言，这存在明显区别。

And that to you and others, there is a clear difference.

执行方式对你来说很重要。

The way it's being carried out matters to you.

为什么为什么这么说？

Why why is that?

嗯，从两个角度来看执行方式。

Well, the way it's being carried out in two perspectives.

首先，人们突然被逮捕，在毫无预警的情况下以非常不加区分的方式与家人和孩子分离。

The first one, in terms of the way that people are just all of a sudden apprehended and they're they're separated from their families and their children at a moment's notice in a very indiscriminate way.

但他们这样做的另一个原因是我们破碎的移民体系。

But the other aspect of the way they're doing it is due to the broken immigration system we have.

有些人已经在这里生活了几十年，他们一直有稳定的工作。

People have been here for decades, and they've held down jobs.

他们创办了企业。

They've started businesses.

他们雇佣了员工。

They've employed people.

他们缴纳了税款。

They paid taxes.

而现在突然间，有人试图在没有正当程序的情况下将他们驱逐出境，甚至没有考虑到他们之所以在这里，是因为当选官员未能履行职责修复破碎的移民体系这一事实。

And now all of a sudden, there's an effort to have them removed without any due process or taking into consideration the fact that they're here due to the fact that the elected officials didn't do their job and fix a broken immigration system.

因此我们认为，我们国家的移民制度必须进行重大改革。

So we think there has to be significant changes in the immigration system that we have in this country.

我想特别和你谈谈今年教会与ICE之间的一个矛盾点。

I wanna talk specifically with you about one tension point between the church and ICE that that happened this year.

曾有神父和其他天主教徒多次尝试将圣体带到拘留设施。

There were several attempts by by priests and other Catholics to bring the Eucharist to a detention facility.

他们屡次被拒绝进入。

They were repeatedly denied entry.

在你看来，为什么人们要努力做这件事很重要？

Why was that important for people to try to do in your mind?

嗯，不仅仅是为了送圣体。

Well, it wasn't just to bring the Eucharist.

这是为了向人们提供牧灵关怀，因为我们觉得这也是我们事工的一部分——探望那些被监禁和拘留的人。

It was to offer pastoral care to people because we we felt as though that's part of our ministry too, to visit those who are imprisoned, those who are detained.

我们深知有些人需要牧灵关怀，就像我们一直以来在各种监禁场所和监狱中对人们所做的那样。

And we just knew that there were people who had a need for pastoral attention that we all have done in countless ways with people who are in in different incarcerations and prisons.

你对他们被拒绝进入感到惊讶吗？

Were you surprised that that they were denied entry?

是的。

Yes.

我很惊讶。

I was.

我惊讶的是，原本有机会讨论如何在尊重他们执法义务的前提下进行此事，这是我们一贯的做法。

I was surprised that there was opportunity given to discuss how we could do it this in a way that respects their obligations in terms of law enforcement, which we've always had.

但事实上他们直接拒绝，甚至不愿与我们沟通，这完全是另一回事。

The fact that it was an absolute no and wouldn't even talk to us was something that was altogether different.

我认为这方面已经有所进展，对此我感到欣慰。

I think there has been some movement on that, and I'm pleased about that.

在哪些方面有所进展？

Movement in what way?

我们已进行讨论，寻求与负责这些被拘留者的人员展开对话的途径。

We have had discussions looking for a way in which we can begin a discussion with those who are responsible for these detainees.

至少现在，我们开始与他们进行一些之前缺乏的对话。

And at least now, we're beginning to have some conversations with them, which was lacking before.

我想稍微转换一下话题，因为这个问题是教皇利奥曾公开表态过的。

I wanna shift gears a little bit because that particular issue is something that Pope Leo spoke out on.

被拘留者的精神权利也应得到重视，我诚挚呼吁当局允许牧灵工作者去照料这些人的需求。

The spiritual rights of, people who have been detained should also be considered, and, I would certainly invite the authorities to allow, pastoral workers to to attend to the needs of those people.

枢机主教，我很好奇您对此的看法——一位美国教皇、芝加哥本地人的支持与声明，如何改变或影响了您和美国其他教会领袖处理移民问题的方式。

And, Cardinal, I I was curious how you thought about this, how the support and the statements of an American pope, a Chicago native, have changed or affected the way that you and other church leaders in The US have approached the immigration issue.

我认为教宗陛下就这一问题多次发表的言论，帮助主教们在巴尔的摩集会时更清晰地界定了问题，从而促成了我们发布的声明。

Well, I think that what the Holy Father has said on a number of occasions with regard to this issue, helped the bishops when they came together in Baltimore to really frame the issues that resulted in the statement that we issued.

他涵盖了多个层面，所有这些要点都被完整地整合体现在我们的声明中。

He covered a lot of bases, and all of those points were really integrated and represented in our statement.

因此我认为他给了我们一些鼓舞，同时也为我们讨论这些问题提供了框架。

So I think he bucked us up a bit, but he also gave us a framework on how to discuss these issues.

枢机主教，现在是政治敏感时期，您知道的。

Cardinal, political time right now, you know that.

表达观点的人会受到批评。

People who voice their opinion are criticized.

根据皮尤研究，大多数美国天主教徒确实投票支持了特朗普总统。

The majority of US Catholics did vote for president Trump according to Pew.

我想知道，今年您是否与芝加哥及其周边的天主教徒有过对话，他们是否对您说过'枢机主教，您错了'这样的话？

And I'm wondering, have you had conversations with Catholics in and around Chicago this year who have said, you know what, Cardinal?

您错了。

You're wrong.

法律就是法律，必须得到执行。

The laws are the laws, and they need to be enforced.

确实有人表达过这种观点。

There are people who have expressed that.

我们始终秉持这样的理解：法律当然必须得到尊重，政府有权利也有责任确保边境安全。

And we always start with the understanding that, of course, laws have to be respected, and the government has a right and a duty to secure its borders.

然而，我的观点是执法过程一直存在间断性和不连贯性。

However, my point would be that the enforcement law has been episodic and irregular.

现在突然采用完全不同的处理方式，无视这些人已在此生活数十年的事实，这种做法不仅不道德——考虑到美国境内有1100万无证移民，根本不可能全部驱逐出境——从策略上也欠考虑。

And so now all of a sudden to come in with altogether different way in which it's going to be approached, ignoring the fact that there's been a past by which people have been here for decades doesn't seem to be not only the moral thing to do, but a smart way to do it given the fact that we have 11,000,000 people here and there's no way that all of those people are going to be deported.

那么我们该如何以合理方式应对这种情况？

So how do we deal with this in a reasonable way?

这就是我与天主教徒探讨该议题时会阐述的观点。

That would be my point as I would address that issue with with Catholics.

很明显，移民海关执法局和边境巡逻队未来将继续针对不同城市展开行动。

It's very clear that ICE and border patrol agents are going to continue targeting different cities going forward.

我想了解您今年获得的经验教训，以及对于2026年可能面临同样处境的同僚主教有何建议？

I'm wondering what you have learned this year and what your advice would be for a fellow bishop in a city that finds it under this microscope in 2026.

我建议首先制定援助计划，为无证移民提供包括法律资源在内的支持体系，确保他们的正当程序权利得到保障。

I would say, first of all, put together a program by which you can be of assistance to migrants, to immigrants who are here, who don't have documents, to put together a set of resources, legal resources by which, in fact, they can have their due process rights respected.

同时建立一种机制，通过食品救济站等方式满足他们的基本生活需求，提供他们所需的各类援助。

Then also set up a means by which they can be supported in terms of their own physical needs by food pantries and other ways in which they would need assistance that way.

其次，要成为他们的倡导者。

And then secondly, being an advocate.

正如我之前在声明中尝试表达的，我认为我们必须用强有力的声音让他们知道，在这个时刻他们并不孤单。

Having, as I tried to do in the statement that you played earlier, I think we have to have a very strong voice to encourage them that they're not alone in this moment.

这正是主教们希望通过他们的声明传达的信息。

And that is something the bishops wanted to convey in the statement that they had.

我们该如何表达对他们的支持立场，让他们知道自己并非孤立无援？

How do we convey a sense of advocacy on their behalf, letting them know that they're not alone?

这是芝加哥总主教布莱斯·库皮奇枢机。

That's cardinal Blaise Cupich, the archbishop of Chicago.

非常感谢您接受我们的采访，枢机主教。

Thank you so much for talking to us, cardinal.

谢谢，斯科特。

Thanks, Scott.

很高兴和你在一起。

Good to be with you.

本期节目由凯瑟琳·芬克制作，报道来自NPR国内极端主义记者奥德特·优素福。

This episode was produced by Katherine Fink, featuring reporting from NPR domestic extremism correspondent Odette Youssef.

由考特尼·多宁和帕特里克·贾伦·瓦塔纳南编辑。

It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Patrick Jaren Watananan.

执行制片人是萨米·扬尼根。

Executive producer is Sammy Yannigan.

这里是NPR的《考虑这个》节目。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特罗。

I'm Scott Detreau.

想听无广告插播的播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可通过Amazon Music收听无广告版的《考虑这个》，您也可以在+.npr.org支持NPR的重要新闻报道并获取《考虑这个》Plus版。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's Vital Journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

这里是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.