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本播客包含明确语言、暴力描述及自杀内容，特此警告。
A warning that this podcast includes explicit language, depictions of violence, and suicide.
在上期节目中
On our last episode
我害怕自己可能会失去意识，或者在那里丧命。
I was afraid that I might lose consciousness or, be killed there.
守住防线。
Hold the line.
守住防线。
Hold the line.
这个
The
这是我二十年城市警务工作中从未经历过的场面。
It was just not a scene that I had ever experienced in twenty years of inner city policing.
我对此感到高兴。
I was happy about it.
你很高兴他们看到了，像是
You were happy about them seeing, like
害怕人群。
Being afraid of people.
比如，这里有个普通人。
Like, here's a common man.
我们就在这里。
Here we are.
之后
After
杰森·里德尔冲击国会大厦、豪饮葡萄酒并逃跑后，最终回到了新罕布什尔州的家。
Jason Riddle stormed the capital, chugged wine, and ran away, he eventually made his way back home to New Hampshire.
但他并没有完全躲藏起来。
But he didn't exactly go into hiding.
一位周三参加了华盛顿抗议活动甚至加入冲击国会大厦人群的新罕布什尔州男子现在发声了，奥黛丽。
A New Hampshire man who attended the protest in DC Wednesday and even joined the mob as it stormed the Capitol Building is now speaking out, Audrey.
里德尔向波士顿NBC电视台的一名记者公开表态。
Riddle spoke out to a reporter for an NBC station in Boston.
你为什么要进去？
Why did you go in?
我...我只是必须亲眼看看。
I I just I had to see it.
你不后悔吗？
You don't regret it?
不。
No.
做完那件事后，我就想，好吧。
After doing that, I was like, okay.
我可能会被捕。
I'm probably gonna get arrested.
我当时正酗酒放纵。
I was on a bender.
我从早到晚都在喝酒。
I drank morning and night.
这地方太恶心了。
This place was gross.
角落里还有棵枯死的圣诞树。
There was a dead Christmas tree in the corner.
这里臭气熏天，我就在沙发地板上醒来，望着窗外等他们来，他们确实来了。
It's smelt in here, and I was just I'd wake up on the floor of the couch, and I was just looking out the window waiting for them to show up, and, they did.
当FBI来到他的公寓时，里德尔承认他进入了国会大厦，并在人们洗劫国会大厦时喝着酒。
When the FBI came to his apartment, Riddle admitted that he went in the building, that he was drinking wine as people looted the Capitol.
然后FBI探员询问他是否偷了东西。
And then the FBI agents asked if he stole anything.
起初，里德尔说没有。
At first, Riddle said no.
他认为自己没有。
He didn't think so.
然后FBI探员说了句，好吧。
And the FBI agent went, okay.
因为我们有这个。
Because we have this.
他们打开一个文件夹，拿出一张照片，照片上是我在国会大厦外拿着那本书。
And they opened up a folder, and they took out a picture, and they have a picture of me holding the book outside of the Capitol Building.
FBI知道里德尔偷了一本该属于国会大厦的书。
The FBI knew that Riddle had stolen a book that belonged in the Capitol.
那是一本关于参议院程序的书。
It was about Senate procedure.
里德尔以四十美元的价格把它卖给了国会大厦外人群中的某个人。
Riddle sold it to someone in the crowd outside the Capitol for forty bucks.
FBI还知道他进入国会大厦的时间、离开的时间以及他在里面的所作所为。
The FBI also knew what time he had entered the Capitol, what time he left, and what he did inside.
杰森·里德尔即将被捕，他的生活即将彻底改变，以他从未预料到的方式。
Jason Riddle was about to be arrested, and his life was about to completely change and in ways he never expected.
这对数百人来说都是如此，因为联邦调查局和司法部启动了联邦政府历史上最大规模的刑事调查。
That was true of hundreds of people because the FBI and the Department of Justice had launched the largest criminal investigation in the history of the federal government.
他们的案件遍及全国各州，探员们追踪了形形色色的人物——从被控策划煽动性阴谋和暴力袭击的主谋，到那些冲进国会却未曾挥拳的普通参与者。
Their cases took them to every state in the country as agents tracked down a wide spectrum of people, from those accused of orchestrating seditious plots and brutal assaults to the hundreds of people who stormed the capital but never threw a punch.
联邦调查局探员和检察官运用视频、短信、电子邮件、手机基站数据、社交媒体帖子、线人情报及证词，在1500多起案件中构建了1月6日事件的完整历史图景。
FBI agents and prosecutors used videos, text messages, emails, cell phone tower data, social media posts, confidential informants, and testimony to create a comprehensive history of January 6 across more than 1,500 cases.
法官和陪审团在法庭上评估了所有这些证据。
Judges and juries evaluated all that evidence in court.
但在政治领域，特朗普总统掀起了一股阴谋论和虚假信息的浪潮，试图颠覆这段历史并重掌权力。
But in the world of politics, president Trump wrote a wave of conspiracy theories and misinformation to turn that history on its head and return to power.
如今他的政府正积极试图抹去真实发生的事件。
And now his administration is actively trying to erase what actually happened.
试想一下：
Consider this.
这场追究责任的大规模行动，如何成了唐纳德·特朗普重返政坛的跳板？
How did this massive effort to hold people accountable become Donald Trump's launchpad to return to power?
这里是NPR，我是斯科特·德特拉。
From NPR, I'm Scott Dettra.
本信息由Wise提供，这是一款为全球用户提供国际资金服务的应用。
This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.
只需轻点几下，您就能发送、消费和接收多达40种货币。
You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.
明智之选。
Be smart.
选择Wise。
Get Wise.
立即下载Wise应用或访问wise.com。
Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.
条款与条件适用。
Ts and Cs apply.
这里是NPR的《考虑一下》栏目。
It's consider this from NPR.
这里是NPR调查记者汤姆·德莱斯巴赫的报道。
Here's NPR investigative correspondent Tom Dreisbach.
格雷格·罗森曾是一名联邦检察官。
Greg Rosen was a federal prosecutor.
他多年来一直在华盛顿特区打击毒品和枪支犯罪。
He'd spent years going after drug and gun crimes in DC.
而在1月6日，他亲眼目睹国会大厦正在直播的犯罪现场。
And on January 6, he saw a crime playing out on live TV at the Capitol.
他表示当时就意识到必须立即启动最高级别响应。
And he says he knew they needed to move into high gear immediately.
美国人民期待大约两周后能实现权力的和平交接，我们必须确保法治得到维护。
The American people expected a peaceful transition of power approximately two weeks later, and we needed to ensure that the rule of law mattered.
别忘了，当时特朗普仍是总统。
Remember, Trump was still president.
拜登的就职典礼即将到来，没人知道是否会有模仿袭击或更严重的事件发生。
Joe Biden's inauguration was coming, and no one knew if another copycat attack or worse was about to hit.
因此在最初的那些日子、小时、分钟里，我们非常清醒地意识到，如果不谨慎而迅速地采取行动，我们完全不知道接下来会发生什么。
And so in those early days, hours, minutes, there was a very keen realization that if we didn't act carefully but quickly, we had no idea what was coming next.
这些担忧并非空穴来风。
Those fears were not just speculation.
1月6日当天逮捕行动寥寥无几，导致骚乱的领头者仍然逍遥法外。
So few arrests had happened on January 6 that the people who led the riot were still out there.
有报道称将发生大规模武装叛乱，全美各州议会大厦都将面临全副武装的暴徒袭击。
There are reports of large armed insurrections that will happen armed to the fucking teeth at every capital in the country.
比格斯是冲击国会大厦的'骄傲男孩'组织头目之一。
Biggs was one of the leaders of the Proud Boys who stormed the capital.
事后他公开宣称1月6日事件只是个警告信号。
Afterwards, he was saying publicly that January 6 was just a warning shot.
如果你不认为这破事马上就要爆发，那你他妈就是疯了。
If you don't think that this shit's about to pop off, you're out of your goddamn mind.
因此司法部最初的重要任务就是预防未来袭击，而线索正源源不断地涌来。
So a major part of the Justice Department's mission at first was to prevent a future attack, and leads were pouring in.
民众提供了数十万条线索，
People provided hundreds of thousands of tips,
这些线索可能来自家人朋友，也可能来自外围观察者，
and those tips could come from family members or friends, or it could come from people who were sort of outside looking in,
试图通过侦探手段识别出某个个体或类似情况。
trying to sleuth their way into identifying an individual or whatnot.
人们举报了邻居、约会软件上的配对对象、前夫、牙医诊所里炫耀暴乱视频的病患，甚至还有儿子举报父亲的案例。
People turned in neighbors, a match on a dating app, ex husbands, a fellow patient at the dentist who was showing off riot videos on a phone, and a son even turned in his father.
一条线索指向了南乔治亚州阿梅里克斯镇的一名男子。
One tip pointed to a man in South Georgia, the town of Americus.
你好？
Hello?
麦考尔。
McCall.
嘿。
Hey.
嘿，刘易斯。
Hey, Lewis.
嘿。
Hey.
我是刘易斯，回你的电话。
It's Lewis returning your call.
就像
Like a
和许多人一样，麦考尔·卡尔霍恩录下了自己冲击国会大厦的过程。
lot of people, McCall Calhoun recorded himself storming the Capitol.
和许多人一样，他在网上发布了相关内容。
And like a lot of people, he posted about it online.
这引起了当地助理地区检察官路易斯·拉姆的注意，拉姆决定录下他们的通话。
And that got the attention of local assistant district attorney Louis Lam, and Lam decided to record their call.
你知道，你在Facebook上发表的那些言论确实引起了我的注意，比如‘我们会武装回来，准备开战’之类的话
You know, those statements that you made on Facebook, those certainly caught my attention, you know, along with the, we're coming back armed and ready for war and, you know
卡尔霍恩帖子中的原话是：如果这笔交易得不到修正，有传言说爱国者们会卷土重来，这次将全副武装准备开战。
The exact quote from Calhoun's post was, if this deal doesn't get fixed, there's talk of patriots coming back, this time fully armed for war.
卡尔霍恩告诉拉姆，这一切都是个大误会。
Calhoun told Lam, this was all just a big misunderstanding.
关于'卷土重来'的说法，我当时说的是'街头传闻'，而且人群里确实有人在讨论这个。
As far as the wheat coming back, what I said was the word on the street is and people were talking about that in the crowd.
我只是在转述我听到的内容而已。
That's all I was communicating was what I was hearing.
我的意思是，我肯定不会武装重返华盛顿什么的。
I mean, I'm not going back to Washington armed or anything.
我是说
I mean
但卡尔霍恩表示有件事他是认真的——人们必须做好准备，因为在乔·拜登领导下的美国即将变成某种由暴力安提法恐怖分子巡逻的共产主义独裁国家。
But Calhoun said he was serious about one thing, that people needed to get ready because the country under Joe Biden was set to become some kind of communist dictatorship patrolled by violent Antifa terrorists.
你觉得呢？
I mean, what do you think?
我没听说过安提法在南乔治亚州烧毁任何人。
I'm not aware of Antifa burning anybody's house down in South Georgia.
你知道吗？
You know?
是啊。
Yeah.
但是，但是，他们
But but but but they're
如果这段通话听起来有点随意，那是有原因的。
If this phone call sounds almost a little casual, there's a reason for that.
卡尔霍恩做了几十年的地方刑事辩护律师，所以他和拉姆彼此认识。
Calhoun was a local criminal defense attorney for decades, so he and Lam knew each other.
他们甚至在法庭上对簿公堂，审理过一起谋杀案。
They even faced off in court in a murder trial.
现在卡尔霍恩在社交媒体上发布关于杀人的言论，这让拉姆很担忧。
Now Calhoun was posting about killing people, and that made Lam worried.
但这同样让我为广大公众感到担忧，因为
But it also concerns me for the public at large because
我没有指使任何人。
I didn't direct anyone.
嗯，我是说，民主党人和共产主义者，呃，
Well, I mean, Democrats and communists and Well,
因为我曾说过类似共产主义者越界并挑起内战之类的话，那么
because I said something like a communist crossed the line and started a civil war or something, then
嗯，我是说，你确实说过你准备好要杀掉他们并随时待命。
Well, I mean, you you did say that you're ready to kill them and get ready.
你还声称能在200码外爆头。
You've got you can do headshots from 200 yards.
而且，想想看，这些言论让你显得很危险，让理智的普通人感到不安。
And, I mean, recall, it makes you sound dangerous, and it makes sane normal people nervous.
你明白吗？
You know?
一个全副武装的人说出那种言论。
That somebody who is heavily armed says those kinds of comments.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，现在人人都全副武装。
Well, everybody's heavily armed.
我是说，这...你知道的...就是...
I mean and it's, you know, it's
不久后，FBI就找上了麦考尔·卡尔霍恩的家门。
Before long, the FBI was at McCall Calhoun's door.
好的，麦考尔。
Alright, McCall.
我现在要征得你的同意，去检查你之前住的那间备用卧室。
What I'm asking to do is have your consent to go back in that spare bedroom where you were staying.
地方检察官将那段通话录音交给了联邦调查局，卡尔霍恩随后被捕，因参与冲击国会大厦被控多项非暴力罪名。
The DA had sent the feds a recording of that call, and Calhoun was arrested, charged with multiple nonviolent crimes for storming the capital.
言论与行动之间的关联是调查人员在每起案件中必须审视的重点。
The connection between talk and action was something investigators had to look at in every case.
哪些只是网络上的疯狂咆哮，哪些构成了真实威胁？
What was just a wild online rant and what was a real threat?
尽管卡尔霍恩在网上大肆宣扬要杀死民主党共产主义者，但他在1月6日当天并未实施个人暴力行为。
Because as much as Calhoun ranted online about wanting to kill Democrat communists, he was not personally violent on January 6.
但对其他人而言，那些关于内战、公开处决和革命的言论确实助长了实际暴力行为。
But for other people, all that talk of civil war, public executions, and revolution helped lead to real violence.
好的。
Okay.
正式自我介绍一下，我是恩里克·阿门塔。
So just just so you know, my name is Enrique Armenta.
我是联邦调查局的特工。
I'm a special agent with the FBI.
明白了吗？
Okay?
我是埃利亚斯特工，我姐姐也是特工。
My name is agent Elias, my sister's agent.
看来你对我们的来意相当清楚。
You seem to have a pretty good idea while we're here.
对吧？
Right?
丹尼尔·罗德里格斯在骚乱发生约两个月后在加州被捕。
Daniel Rodriguez was arrested in California about two months after the riot.
他当时三十多岁。
He was in his late thirties at the time.
罗德里格斯告诉FBI，他前往国会大厦的轨迹某种程度上始于极右翼阴谋论节目《信息战争》。
And Rodriguez told the FBI his path to the capital kind of all started with the far right conspiracy show, Infowars.
他表示这个节目让他看清了世界的真实运作方式和真正的掌权者。
He said the show opened his eyes to how the world really works and who's really in charge.
全球主义者和未经选举的官员、精英主义者，你知道的，那些痴迷权力和控制的人。
Globalists and unelected officials, elitists, you know, people who are obsessed with power and control.
当特朗普声称选举被窃取时，罗德里格斯相信了这一点。
When Trump said the election was stolen, Rodriguez believed it.
当特朗普号召他的支持者在6号前往华盛顿时，他听从了。
And when Trump called his supporters to DC for the sixth, he listened.
我以为会
I thought that there was
要
gonna
在全国各地爆发战斗。
be battles across the country.
我以为会
I thought that there was
因为某种原因在不同城市发生冲突，而且我认为主要的战斗、主战场会在华盛顿，因为特朗普把所有人都召集到了那里，然后我以为那会引来黑命贵和安提法的人，就像一场大战那样。
gonna be fighting for some reason in different cities, and I thought that the the the main fight, the main battle was gonna be in DC because Trump called everyone there, and then I thought that that was gonna bring BLM and Antifa there, It was gonna be, like, a big battle.
这就是我当时的真实想法。
That's what I really thought.
1月6日前夜，罗德里格斯在一个与其他特朗普支持者的群聊中写道，将会流血。
On the night before January 6, Rodriguez wrote to a group chat with other Trump supporters, there will be blood.
欢迎加入革命。
Welcome to the revolution.
第二天，他加入了西下廊隧道处的暴民队伍。
The next day, he joined the mob at the Lower West Terrace Tunnel.
那里是当天暴力事件最严重的地方。
That was the site of the worst violence that day.
他说，他的目标是尽一切努力突破警察防线，让人们进入国会大厦。
His goal, he said, was to do everything he could to push past the police line and get people inside the capital.
我只是...我们正试图进入大楼，占领大楼。
I'm just we're trying to get in the building to try to occupy the building.
好的。
Okay.
于是我喊了，我喊了，我大声喊叫。
So I called I called I shouted.
我转过身来。
I turned around.
我说，嘿。
I'm like, hey.
我们需要电击枪上来。
We need tasers up here.
我我以为有人会带着电击枪上来，而不是递给我一把电击枪。
And I I thought someone was gonna come up with a taser, not hand me a taser.
罗德里格斯索要电击枪后，有人递给了他一把。
After Rodriguez asked for a taser, someone handed him one.
就在这时，暴徒将一名警察从隧道里拖出来，拉进了人群中。
That's when the rioters pulled a cop out of the tunnel and into the mob.
那名警察是迈克尔·法农。
That cop was Michael Fanon.
人们开始攻击法农。
People started to attack Fanon.
他们殴打他，抢夺他的枪，然后罗德里格斯冲进混战，将电击枪刺入法农的后颈两次。
They punched him, grabbed for his gun, and then Rodriguez went up in the scrum and plunged the taser into the back of Fanon's neck twice.
你为什么用电击枪攻击他？
Why did you taser him?
你说他在挣扎。
You said he was struggling.
我只是有点
I just kinda
那时他正挣扎着想要被释放。
At that point, he's struggling to be let let go.
是的。
Yeah.
而在他挣扎的时候你选择袭击他？
And you chose to assault him while he's struggling?
嗯，我只是觉得，我当时不知道他们是什么意图
Well, I just felt that, like I didn't know what they were
会对他做什么。
gonna do to him.
所以你电击他是为了保护他？
And so you tasered him to protect him?
不是不是，我是说，这听起来很蠢。
Not not I mean, that sounds stupid.
我不确定我电击他是为了保护他，但也许只是为了防止他挣扎受伤之类的。
I don't know if I prayed to Taser to protect him, but maybe just to, like so he wouldn't struggle and get hurt, maybe.
说实话，我当时没想太多，因为当我这么做的时候，我就在想，天啊。
And honestly, I didn't think very much about it because when I did it, I was like, oh my god.
我刚才做了什么？
What did I just do?
然后我
And I got
罗德里格斯说他以为自己在拯救国家，但事情并没有那样发展。
Rodriguez said he thought he was saving the country, but that's not how things worked out.
我非常抱歉。
I'm so sorry.
我不知道我们做的是错事。
I didn't know that we're doing the wrong thing.
我以为我们他妈的在做正确的事。
I thought we're doing the fucking right thing.
我以为我们会...我真是太蠢了。
I thought we were gonna be I'm so stupid.
我以为我会很了不起。
I thought I was gonna be awesome.
我以为自己是个好人。
I thought I was a good guy.
随着时间的推移，司法部从调查阶段进入了法庭阶段。
Over time, the justice department moved from investigations to court.
这位是检察官格雷格·罗森。
Here's Greg Rosen, the prosecutor.
这无疑是美国历史上最大规模的联邦起诉案件。
It is certainly the largest federal prosecution in American history.
从统计数据来看，我们起诉了约1,593起案件，进行了约260多场审判。
In terms of the statistics, we prosecuted approximately 1,593 cases and had approximately 260 plus trials.
只有两名被告被完全无罪释放，因此成功率非常高。
There were only two defendants that were fully acquitted, so very high success rate.
他们面临的唯一重大挫折是最高法院缩小了一项法律的适用范围，检察官原本用这项法律起诉某些人妨碍国会。
The only major setback they faced was when the Supreme Court narrowed a law that prosecutors were using to charge certain people with obstructing Congress.
但大多数人，超过一千人，选择了认罪。
But most people, more than a thousand, pleaded guilty.
这里需要理解参与暴乱人员的广泛多样性。
And here's where it's important to understand the wide spectrum of people's involvement in the riot.
基本上可以将其分为三类。
You can basically separate it into three categories.
首先，有几百人被指控参与某种形式的暴力行为。
First, there were a few 100 people accused of some type of violence.
这些人比如丹尼尔·罗德里格斯，他们属于最高优先级的案件，面临更严厉的惩罚。
These are people like Daniel Rodriguez, and they were some of the highest priority cases with more severe punishments.
以罗德里格斯为例，他承认了袭击范农的罪行。
Rodriguez, for example, pleaded guilty to assaulting Fanon.
他被判处十二年监禁。
He was sentenced to twelve years in prison.
然后是第二类案件——煽动性阴谋，基本上是策划使用武力、暴力来阻止选举认证。
And then there was a second category of cases, seditious conspiracy, basically planning to use force, violence, to stop the electoral certification.
阴谋活动之所以危险，是因为它们代表了一种非冲动性的行为层级。
Conspiracies are dangerous because they represent a tier of conduct that is not impulsive.
这不是那种'我被一时冲动冲昏头脑'，或者所谓的'走进了美国国会大厦'的情况。
It is not, I got swept up in the moment and sort of, quote, walked into The US Capitol.
当个体聚集并策划此类行为时，对法治的腐蚀性影响是极其严重的。
And it's incredibly corrosive to the rule of law when individuals get together and plan behaviors like this.
这些案件是司法部的一次重大举措。
These cases were a big swing from the justice department.
经过数周的作证，陪审团认定骄傲男孩和誓言守护者的领导人均犯有煽动阴谋罪。
And after weeks of testimony, juries found leaders of both the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers guilty of seditious conspiracy.
针对骄傲男孩的案件尤为严重。
The case against the Proud Boys was especially serious.
由特朗普任命的法官判处'骄傲男孩'组织领袖恩里克·塔里奥22年监禁。
A judge appointed by Trump sentenced Proud Boy leader Enrique Tarrio to twenty two years in prison.
然后还有第三类案件。
And then there was a third category of cases.
这基本上是最大的群体，包括数百名其他确实冲进了国会大厦但未参与阴谋策划且未亲自袭击警察的人。
This is basically the largest group, including hundreds of other people who did storm the Capitol Building but were not involved in a conspiracy and did not personally assault police.
要知道，虽然当天发生了许多暴力行为，但每个个体并不一定都实施了暴力行为。
You know, each one individual did not necessarily commit a violent act, though there were many violent acts that day.
但这个集体实体，那个存在的庞然大物，某种程度上创造了完美风暴，冲垮了美国国会警察和国会。
But the collective entity, the monolith that existed created sort of the perfect storm to overrun the US Capitol Police and Congress.
该类别中的一些人被判入狱，比如那位南乔治亚州的律师麦考尔·卡尔霍恩。
Some of the people in that category got prison time, like that South Georgia lawyer, McCall Calhoun.
他被定罪并被判处一年半监禁。
He was convicted and sentenced to a year and a half in prison.
但法院并未对该类别的所有被告都从严惩处。
But the courts did not throw the book at all the defendants in that category.
数百人完全没有被判监禁。
Hundreds of people got no prison time at all.
在国会大厦喝掉那瓶葡萄酒的杰森·里德尔认罪了。
Jason Riddle, who chugged that bottle of wine in the capital, pleaded guilty.
他被判处九十天监禁。
He was sentenced to ninety days in lockup.
但接下来发生的事情表明，利用监狱促使人们改过自新或为1月6日事件赎罪的努力有时会适得其反。
But what happened next showed how the effort to use prison to get people to reform or make amends for January 6 sometimes backfired.
首先，听听里德尔是如何描述他被关押的监狱的。
First of all, just listen to how Riddle described the prison he was sent to.
那里就像个养老院。
It's like a nursing home.
简直是个笑话。
It's a joke.
你根本不会真的担心自己的安全，那里只有一群老人闲扯八卦、互相诋毁，然后发福变胖。
You're you're not you're not really afraid for your safety, and there's just a bunch of old people gossiping and talking crap about each other and getting fat.
而在里面，他并没有因为1月6日的行为成为众矢之的。
And inside, he was not some pariah for what he did on January 6.
实际上，
If anything,
情况恰恰相反。
it was the opposite.
狱警们都对我表示赞赏，管区的负责人是个黑手党成员。
Like, correctional officers are giving me props, and and the guy who ran the block, he was a a mafia guy.
我到牢房时他已经在等我了。
He was waiting for me in my cell when I got there.
他就因为我在暴乱现场而想见我，还因此特别欣赏我。
He wanted to meet me for just being at the riot, and he loved me for being at the riot.
他每天都会经过我的牢房，称我为爱国者和英雄。
And he'd every day, he'd walk by my cell, and he'd call me a patriot and hero.
他会说，嘿，爱国者，你这个英雄。
He'd be like, hey, patriot, you hero.
他每天都这样称呼我。
He'd call me every single day.
我被称作爱国者和英雄。
I got called a patriot and a hero.
我的绰号是特朗普。
My nickname was Trump.
这不仅仅是里德尔所在监狱的情况。
This was not just the case at the prison where Riddle was.
几十名被控最严重罪行的人，比如袭击罪，最终被关在DC监狱的一个区域，基本上只关押1月6日的被告。
A few dozen of the people charged with the most serious crimes, like assault, ended up in one section of the DC Jail, basically just for January 6 defendants.
这是一通来自惩教治疗机构在押人员的免费电话。
This is a free call from an incarcerated individual at correctional treatment facility.
我在他们候审期间接到了很多来自那里在押人员的电话。
I got a lot of calls from inmates there while they were awaiting trial.
条件很糟糕。
The conditions were bad.
已有充分记录显示该监狱未能达到基本标准，而且内部冲突不断。
It's been well documented that the jail fails to meet basic standards, and there was a lot of infighting.
有人告诉我这就像电影《贱女孩》那样，但主角换成了种族主义和反犹主义的极端分子。
One told me it was like the movie Mean Girls, but with racist, anti Semitic extremists.
但他们也建立了情谊。
But they also bonded.
布兰登·费洛斯曾冲击国会大厦，还在参议员办公室里抽了大麻。
Brandon Fellows had stormed the capital and smoked a joint in a senator's office.
他因涉嫌骚扰缓刑官而被羁押候审。
He was jailed pending trial for allegedly harassing his probation officer.
他告诉我被关押只会让他变得更加激进。
He told me that getting locked up only made him more radical.
他们确实树敌了。
They made an enemy, for sure.
你知道，我之前就不喜欢他们，但现在他们真的成了敌人。
You know, I didn't like them before, but now they made an enemy.
当你说'他们'时，具体指的是谁？
And when you say they, well, who do you mean by they?
司法部，拜登政府。
The DOJ, the Biden administration.
这就是为什么当他们提出一个已服刑时间的认罪协议时。
That's why they when they offered me a time served plea deal.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我只是不和恐怖分子谈判。
I just don't negotiate with terrorists.
所以
So
听起来你现在比以往任何时候都更关心政治了。
So you're more political than ever, it sounds like.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
不。
No.
他们真的做出了错误的决定。
They they really made the wrong decision.
每晚在DC监狱里，1月6日的被告们会一起唱国歌，他们的支持者通过监狱电话粗糙地录下了这些歌声。
Every night at the DC Jail, the January 6 defendant started singing the national anthem together, and their supporters recorded it over a scratchy jailhouse phone.
很快，这一仪式将变得更为人所知。
Soon, that ritual would become much more famous.
报道1月6日事件是一次非同寻常的经历，原因有很多，不仅仅是因为那段时间我每天都会接到多个来自监狱中1月6日被告的电话。
There are a lot of reasons covering January 6 has been an unusual experience, and it wasn't just because of the period of my life where I got multiple calls a day from January 6 defendants in jail.
最令人惊讶的部分之一是看着似乎全国对这次暴乱的共识在我们脚下崩塌。
One of the wildest parts has been watching what seemed like a national consensus about the riot crumble under our feet.
早在2021年初，国会多数议员认为特朗普应因煽动袭击事件而受到弹劾。
Back in early twenty twenty one, a majority of the congress believed Trump should be impeached for inciting the attack.
甚至投票反对给特朗普定罪的共和党参议员，如米奇·麦康奈尔，也将1月6日称为国内恐怖主义行为。
And even Republican senators who voted against convicting Trump, like Mitch McConnell, called January 6 an act of domestic terrorism.
袭击事件发生一周年之际，共和党参议员泰德·克鲁兹斯发言时这样说道。
And a year after the attack, this is what Republican senator Ted Cruz was saying.
本周我们即将迎来一个庄严的周年纪念日，这是场自然对话的翻译。
We are approaching a solemn anniversary this week, and it is an anniversary of a violent terrorist attack on the Capitol where we saw the men and women of law enforcement demonstrate incredible courage, incredible bravery.
但克鲁兹似乎没有意识到，关于1月6日的共识一直在改变，至少在右翼层面如此。
But what Cruz did not seem to realize was that the consensus about January 6 had been changing, at least on the right.
你称此为
You called this
一场0.1%的恐怖袭击，而根据任何定义它都不构成恐怖袭击。
a terror attack when by no definition was it a terror attack.
那是谎言。
That's a lie.
你故意撒那个谎，我想知道你为何这么做。
You told that lie on purpose, and I'm wondering why you did.
塔克·卡尔森在福克斯新闻上质问克鲁兹。
Tucker Carlson confronted Cruz on Fox News.
而克鲁兹非但没有坚持立场，似乎察觉到了风向的变化。
And Cruz, rather than stand his ground, seemed to sense which way the winds were blowing.
我昨天的措辞很草率，坦白说也很愚蠢。
The way I phrase things yesterday, it was sloppy, and and it was frankly dumb.
我不
I don't
买账。
buy that.
哇。
Woah.
哇。
Woah.
哇。
Woah.
克鲁兹表示他原本只想称那些袭击警察的人为恐怖分子，但即便是这种说法也不再是共识的一部分。
I Cruz said he only meant to call the people who assaulted police terrorists, but even that was no longer part of the consensus.
1月6日事件正演变成又一个民主党人的骗局。
January 6 was becoming another democrat hoax.
事后看来，从一开始所有的迹象就都很明显了。
In retrospect, all the signs were there from the beginning.
这种共识一直有些脆弱，因为阴谋论从一开始就在发酵。
The consensus was always a little shaky because the conspiracies had been bubbling up from the very beginning.
我一直在想1月6日晚上Seaspan的那段视频片段。
There's the Seaspan clip I keep thinking about from the night of January 6.
屏幕上，警察仍在努力控制大楼。
On screen, police were still trying to secure the building.
Seaspan向来电者开放了他们的电话线路。
Seaspan opened their phones to callers.
我就简单说几点想法。
So just a couple of thoughts.
一个叫布拉德的人打电话进来，提出了一个理论。
A guy named Brad called in with a theory.
有一些参与今天疯狂行动的人的照片，他们之前也出现在安提法的示威活动中。
There are some pictures of some of the people who have, joined in today's crazy acts that, have been seen both at prior Antifa demonstrations.
布拉德，你你你从哪里得到这些信息的？
Brad, where where where where are you finding that information?
在推特上。
On Twitter.
你相信这些信息吗？
And you trust it?
是的。
Yeah.
我我是说，那些都是照片。
I I mean, they're pictures.
那些在推特上传播的照片是特朗普支持者的。
Those photos that spread online on Twitter were of Trump supporters.
但就在同一天晚上，福克斯新闻也报道了这些理论。
But that same night, Fox News ran with those theories too.
请记住，我们并不知道所有煽动者是谁。
Keep in mind, we don't know who all were the instigators in this.
我认为其中很多是反法人士。
I think a lot of it is the Antifa folks.
我也收到过照片。
I've been sent pictures.
有报告称，安提法同情者可能混入了人群各处。
There are some reports that Antifa sympathizers may have been sprinkled throughout the crowd.
随着每一个阴谋论的出现和被揭穿，另一个就会取而代之，尽管它们之间往往自相矛盾。
We'll have more As every conspiracy theory popped up and was debunked, another would take its place, even though they never really made sense together.
比如，要么说是安提法制造了所有破坏，要么说是深层政府设下的假旗行动来抹黑特朗普支持者，又或者其实这根本不是什么大事。
Like, it was Antifa doing all destruction or actually a false flag by the deep state to make Trump supporters look bad, or maybe it was just not really a big deal.
共和党议员安德鲁·克莱德也表达了类似观点。
Republican congressman Andrew Clyde said as much.
要知道，如果你不知道电视画面是1月6日的录像，你可能会以为那只是一次普通的游客参观。
You know, if you didn't know the TV footage was a video from January 6, you would actually think it was a normal tourist visit.
但这些说法都有一个共同点。
But what all these stories had in common was this.
1月6日事件不是特朗普的错，也不是他支持者的错。
January 6 was not Trump's fault, and it was not his supporters' fault either.
如果有受害者，那就是那些被逮捕的人。
If there are victims, it was the people who were arrested.
当然，没有人能像唐纳德·特朗普那样塑造共和党的信仰。
Of course, no one can shape the beliefs of the Republican Party like Donald Trump.
在他的竞选活动中，特朗普非但没有回避1月6日事件，反而以此作为竞选主题。
And in his campaign, rather than running away from January 6, If anything, Trump ran on it.
女士们先生们，请欣赏《为所有人伸张正义》，由唐纳德·J·特朗普总统和J六合唱团献演。
Ladies and gentlemen, Justice For All, featuring president Donald j Trump and the j six choir.
特朗普决定在他连任竞选的首场集会上，以德克萨斯州韦科为起点，用一首歌拉开序幕。
Trump decided to open the very first rally of his reelection campaign in Waco, Texas with a song.
那首歌正是1月6日被拘留被告在狱中演唱的国歌录音。
It was that recording of the January 6 defendants in jail singing the national anthem.
但现在这段录音混入了环境音乐和特朗普诵读效忠誓词的声音。
But now it was mixed with ambient music and Trump reading the pledge of allegiance.
整部作品由卡什·帕特尔制作完成。
It was all produced by Cash Patel.
是的。
Yes.
现任联邦调查局局长卡什·帕特尔。
That Cash Patel, the current FBI director.
特朗普称参与1月6日袭击的人是政治犯。
Trump said the people who perpetrated the January 6 attack were political prisoners.
对于那些被冤枉和背叛的人——这样的人有很多——我是你们的复仇者。。”
For those who have been wronged and betrayed, of which there are many people out there that have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.
我们会处理好的
We will take care
而且
And
不仅仅是在韦科
it wasn't just in Waco.
特朗普一再称对骚乱者的刑事指控是基于巨大谎言的骗局
Again and again, Trump called the criminal charges against the rioters a con job based on a giant lie.
我把他们称为J六人质
That was I call them the j six hostages.
那些人中有很多是非常无辜的
Many of those people are very innocent people.
他们没有做错任何事
They did nothing wrong.
都是好人
Great people.
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他们中很多人都是非常好的人。
Many of them are just great people.
那年夏天，特朗普本人被司法部起诉，指控他涉嫌使用欺诈和其他非法手段推翻2020年选举。
That summer, Trump himself was indicted by the Department of Justice for allegedly using fraud and other illegal means to overturn the twenty twenty election.
特朗普将自己描述为政治迫害的又一个受害者，就像那些暴乱被告一样。他在集会上不断播放那首歌。
Trump described himself as one more victim of political persecution, just like the riot defendants, And he kept playing that song at his rallies.
当特朗普总统发布一首包含被告在监狱电话录音的歌曲时，肯定让人分心。
Must have been distracting when you have president Trump releasing a a song with your defendants' voices, recorded on the jailhouse phones.
要我说，这可能是本世纪最轻描淡写的说法了。
I mean, that might be the understatement of the century.
我是检察官格雷格·罗森。
This is Greg Rosen again, the prosecutor.
说分心显然是一种委婉的说法。
Distracting is obviously one word for it.
你会用什么词来形容？
What are the words you would use?
我是说，太疯狂了。
I mean, insane.
对检察官来说疯狂的事，对1月6日的被告们却是荣誉勋章。
What was insane for prosecutors was a badge of honor for January 6 defendants.
在被FBI称为国内恐怖分子后，现在这位前总统、可能的未来总统，正称他们为爱国者。
After being called domestic terrorists by the FBI, now the former, possible future president, was calling them patriots.
杰森·里德尔目睹了这一切的发展，他完全有理由接受特朗普讲述的故事。
Jason Riddle was watching all of this unfold, and he had every reason to embrace the story Trump was telling.
毕竟在监狱里，人们称他为英雄，而且还有金钱利益。
After all, in prison, people called him a hero, and money was at stake.
一些被告已经筹集了数万乃至数十万美元的捐款。
Some defendants had raised tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations.
但对里德尔来说，有两件事发生了变化。
But two things changed for Riddle.
首先，是他的酗酒问题。
First, his drinking problem.
在一次酗酒后，他的缓刑官给他装了酒精检测仪以确保他戒酒。
After one bender, his probation officer put him on a breathalyzer to make sure he stopped drinking.
否则，他就要进监狱。
Otherwise, he'd go to jail.
用他的话说，法律迫使他清醒过来。
The way he puts it, the law forced him to get sober.
而我只是需要帮助。
And just I needed help.
我——那才是问题所在。
And I that was the problem.
我无法承认这一点。
I couldn't admit that.
一旦我能承认这点，事情就变得容易多了。
And once I was able to admit that, it made it a whole lot easier.
他让生活重回正轨，找到了一份稳定的工作。
He got his life back on track, found a steady job.
这也促使他重新思考很多事情，包括对特朗普的看法。
And it also made him rethink a lot of things, including Trump.
他说的话，在晚上没有酒精的作用下，对我确实产生了不同的影响。
The things he says, they definitely didn't have the same effect on me without alcohol at night.
比如，那些我以前觉得好笑的事情。
Like, all these things that I used to find funny.
特朗普的支持是什么？
What is Trump's support?
现在我只觉得非常烦人。
Now I'm just finding really annoying.
然后特朗普做了一件令他震惊、彻底改变他看法的事。
And then Trump did something that shocked him, changed his whole perspective.
当特朗普在纽约市被起诉时——这与他向成人电影明星斯托米·丹尼尔斯支付封口费有关——他号召人们抗议。
When Trump was indicted in New York City, this was over the hush money payments he made to the adult film star Stormy Daniels, he called for protests.
特朗普今天表示预计自己将在周二被捕，并号召人们抗议。
Trump saying today he expects to be arrested on Tuesday and is calling for protests.
我记得我脑中那个执着的念头在想，你怎么能这么做？
And I remember the obsessive part of my brain thinking, how could you do that?
可能会有人因此丧命。
Someone else can get killed.
可能会再出现一个阿什利·巴比特事件。
Another Ashley Babbitt can happen.
你不能这样做。
You can't do that.
我当时就觉得，这就是我的顿悟时刻。
And I was just like, that that was my epiphany.
特朗普号召人们这样做，因为他根本不在乎谁会受伤。
Trump Trump's asking people to do that because he doesn't care about who gets hurt.
他不在乎后果。
He doesn't care about repercussions.
他只在乎他自己。
He only cares about himself.
但杰森·里德尔是个例外。
But Jason Riddle was an outlier.
女士们先生们，请欢迎当选总统唐纳德·J·特朗普。
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome president-elect Donald j Trump.
与2020年不同，特朗普在2024年大选中获胜，其竞选纲领包含了对1月6日事件及暴乱者的支持。
Unlike in 2020, Trump won the twenty twenty four election and on a platform that embraced January 6 and the rioters.
坦率地说，我相信这是有史以来最伟大的政治运动。
Frankly, this was, I believe, the greatest political movement of all time.
这个国家从未发生过这样的事情。
There's never been anything like this in this country.
也许吧
Maybe
胜诉后，司法部因其不起诉在任总统的政策，撤销了对特朗普的刑事案件。
After winning, the Department of Justice dismissed their criminal cases against Trump because of the policy against prosecuting a sitting president.
这样一来，就只剩下1500多起1月6日的案件了。
That only left the 1,500 more January 6 cases.
就在就职典礼前夕，J.
And just before the inauguration, J.
D.
D.
副总统当选人万斯被问及这些赦免的范围会有多广。
Vance, the vice president-elect, was asked how far those pardons would go.
我认为这很简单。
I think it's very simple.
看。
Look.
如果你在1月6日和平抗议，却遭到梅里克·加兰领导的司法部像对待帮派成员一样对待，你应该获得赦免。
If you protested peacefully on January 6 and you've had Merrick Garland's Department of Justice treat you like a gang member, you should be pardoned.
如果你在那天实施了暴力行为，显然不应被赦免。
If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn't be pardoned.
这其中存在一些灰色地带，但是
And there's a little bit of a gray area there, but where where
即便到了2025年1月这个时间点，FBI仍在追查那些袭警者。
Now even at this point, January 2025, the FBI was still looking for people who assaulted cops.
所以当格雷格·罗森听到万斯的言论时，他认为这项工作或许真能继续推进。
So when Greg Rosen heard Vance's comments, he thought maybe that work could actually continue.
显然，可以说我预见到我们的起诉可能会有所调整，但我原以为会有缓冲期，让我们能集中处理那些对警察实施暴力的个人。
Obviously, it would be fair to say that I understood that there might be changes to our prosecution, but I thought there was a runway so that we could focus on those individuals who committed violence against police officers.
毕竟，就连泰德·克鲁兹都称那些人为恐怖分子。
After all, even Ted Cruz had called those people terrorists.
因此，特朗普上任首日的决定让罗森大为震惊。
So Rosen was stunned by what Trump decided to do on his first day in office.
这是1月6日事件。
So this is January 6.
这些人质。
These are the hostages.
大约有1500人获得赦免。
Approximately 1,500 for a pardon.
是
Yes.
全面赦免
Full pardon.
全面赦免还是减刑？
Full pardon or commutation?
全面赦免
Full pardon.
特朗普几乎给所有1月6日的被告都给予了全面赦免
Trump gave nearly every January 6 defendant a full pardon.
他们的所作所为无关紧要
It did not matter what they did.
差异被抹平了
That spectrum was flattened.
在特朗普看来，每个人都是受害者
Everyone in Trump's view was a victim.
唯一的例外是与'骄傲男孩'和'誓言守护者'叛乱阴谋案有关的14人。
The only partial exceptions were 14 people who were connected to the seditious conspiracy cases against the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers.
这14人获得了减刑，意味着他们出狱了但犯罪记录仍保留。
Those 14 got commutations, meaning they got out of prison but still had the felony conviction on their records.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, everybody.
我们和Daniel一起在这里环顾四周
We're here with all that look around all the Daniel
罗德里格斯被捕后曾哭泣并指责特朗普。
Rodriguez had cried and blamed Trump after he was arrested.
但获得赦免后，他出狱并开始庆祝。
But after the pardon, he got out of prison and celebrated.
我想说谢谢你，特朗普总统。
I wanna say thank you, president Trump.
你知道，你做得非常出色。
You know, you're doing a great job.
大家都很支持你。
Everybody's, going for you.
我们都为你获胜感到骄傲，我们都在支持你，再次为国家效力。
We're all proud that you you won, and we're you're you're supporting, the country again.
特朗普决定大规模赦免，意味着那些因强奸、袭击、虐待儿童和家庭暴力等前科而长期背负犯罪记录的人突然获得自由。
Trump's decision to issue mass pardons meant people were suddenly freed who had long criminal rap sheets for prior crimes, including rape, assault, child abuse, and domestic violence.
一些前被告谈论要报复他们的检察官，在网上公布他们的名字，煽动网络暴民攻击他们。
Some of the former defendants talked about going after their prosecutors, posted their names online, whipped up online mobs against them.
前'骄傲男孩'领袖恩里克·塔里奥开始谈论复仇。
Enrique Tarrio, the former Proud Boys leader, started talking about revenge.
那些干这事的人，他们必须付出代价。
The people who did this, they need to feel the heat.
他们应当被关进监狱，受到法律制裁。
They need to be put behind bars, and they need to be prosecuted.
数十名参与1月6日案件调查的检察官被解雇了。
Dozens of prosecutors who worked on January 6 cases were fired.
格雷格·罗森被降职，随后选择辞职。
Greg Rosen was demoted and then later chose to resign.
与此同时，特朗普的司法部雇佣了一个名叫贾里德·怀斯的人。
Meanwhile, the Trump justice department hired a man named Jared Wise.
他参与了骚乱，闯入国会大厦，在暴徒袭击警察时高喊'杀了他们，杀了他们'。
He was at the riot, went inside the capital, yelled kill them, kill them, as rioters assaulted police.
他曾辩称无罪，而特朗普撤销了对他的指控。
He had pleaded not guilty, and Trump dismissed his charges.
如今特朗普重新掌权，他彻底颠覆了1月6日事件的叙事，并试图动用政府权力将其确立为官方版本。
So now that Trump is back in office, he has flipped the story of January 6 on its head, and he's using the power of the government to try to make that the official story.
特朗普称这些赦免将有助于实现他所谓的'关于1月6日的全国和解'。
Trump said that the pardons would help lead to a, quote, national reconciliation over January 6.
但自那以后，许多人的生活陷入困境。
But since then, many people's lives are falling apart.
有些人仍在造成破坏。
Some are still doing damage.
一名男子被指控性侵多名儿童，其中包括一名11岁的孩子。
One man has been charged with molesting multiple children, including an 11 year old.
另有一人因持有儿童性虐待图片和视频而面临指控，还有一人被指控威胁要杀害众议院少数党领袖哈基姆·杰弗里斯。
Another is facing charges of possessing images and videos of child sexual abuse, and another has been accused of threatening to kill Hakim Jeffries, the house minority leader.
我就这些案件询问了白宫，白宫发言人艾比盖尔·杰克逊称特朗普'行使宪法宪法权力， '对那些被拜登司法系统滥用职权、出于政治目的过度起诉的人士给予赦免。
I asked the White House about those cases, and White House spokeswoman Abigail Jackson said Trump, quote, exercised his constitutional authority to issue pardons to individuals who were abused by the Biden justice system and aggressively over prosecuted for political purposes.
其中一起案件发生在特朗普赦免令颁布仅五天后，地点是印第安纳州的一条州际公路上。
In one case, just five days after Trump's pardons on a state road in Indiana.
我没理由骗你
There's no reason I'm pulling yours
70和55。
for 70 and a 55.
今天开这么快有什么原因吗？
Any reason for going that fast today?
没有，长官。
No, sir.
我会继续关注交通情况。
I'll just keep you on the traffic.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
马修·哈德尔因超速被县警副警长拦下时正在驾驶。
Matthew Huddle was driving when he was stopped by a sheriff's deputy for speeding.
哈德尔立即向警察表明了自己的身份。
Huddle told the cop right away who he was.
我想让你知道，我是1月6日事件的被告。
I just wanna let you know that, I'm a January 6, defendant.
你什么意思？
What do you mean?
我以赦免令上的帽子发誓。
I sworn the cap on my pardon.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
而且我，我现在真的不能再惹上任何麻烦了。
And I'm I, I can't really afford to get in any trouble right now.
好的。
Okay.
但即使在1月6日之前，哈德尔就有很长的违法历史，比如酒驾和暴力虐待儿童的犯罪记录。
But even before January 6, Huddle had a long history of problems with the law, like drunk driving and a criminal record for violent child abuse.
特朗普的特赦仅涵盖了他对冲击国会大厦认罪的国会暴乱案。
Trump's pardon only covered his Capitol riot case for pleading guilty to storming the building.
所以今天，你得跟我走一趟。
So today, you are going to come with me.
看。
Look.
我不行 我真的不行。
I can't I can't.
你必须得这么做。
You're gonna have to.
明白吗？
Okay?
你今天得跟我走。
You're gonna come with me today.
听懂了吗？
Alright?
不行。
No.
我不能因为这个坐牢，先生。
I can't go to jail for this, sir.
你必须跟我来。
You're gonna have to come.
副警长刚开始填写文件时，哈德尔突然逃跑了。
As the deputy started to write down the paperwork, Huddle bolted.
你应该转身把手举起来吗？
Should you turn around and put your hands on?
别这么做，伙计。
Don't you do it, buddy.
别。
Don't.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
此时，执法部门公布的执法记录仪视频中断了。
At this point, the body cam video released by law enforcement cuts off.
据县警局称，哈德尔伸手去拿手枪并说道：我要开枪自杀。
According to the sheriff's department, Huddle reached for a handgun and said, I'm shooting myself.
县警局副警长表示他当时感到生命受到威胁，于是开枪击毙了哈德尔。
The sheriff's deputy said he feared for his life and shot and killed Huddle.
该枪击事件被判定为正当防卫。
The shooting was declared justified.
大卫
David
如今哈德尔的名字也被列入已逝的1月6日被告名单中。
Now Huddle's name is one more on a list of former January 6 defendants who have died.
这些名字每周都会在白宫前的守夜活动中被宣读。
It's read at a weekly vigil in front of the White House.
马修·哈德尔，安息吧。
Matthew Huddle, rest in peace.
伯特·希夫利，安息吧。
Burt Shively, rest in peace.
那里只有寥寥数人，有些是前被告，有些只是支持者。
There's just a handful of people there, some former defendants, others who are just supporters.
多米尼克·博克斯是常客。
Dominic Box is a regular.
他表示希望特朗普总统能理解，获得赦免后的生活并不轻松。
He said he hopes president Trump understands that life after pardons has not been easy.
自从出狱后，我基本上一直在各处借宿，变卖仅剩的几件物品，比如鞋子和衣服。
I've been couch hopping effectively since I got out of prison, and, you know, I've been selling the few items that I still have, shoes, clothes.
我还有些从监狱带出来的东西想卖掉，包括一些J6事件的纪念品。但说实话，现在只能祈祷并保持积极心态，相信最终会找到出路。
I've I've got some different items from jail and prison that trying to sell some j six memorabilia, but it's really just, you know, praying and staying positive that eventually, I'll find an opportunity that'll work.
福克斯因冲击国会大厦并全程录像而被判非暴力罪名成立。
Fox was convicted of nonviolent charges for storming the capital and recording it all.
他最终入狱的主要原因是在候审期间又因酒驾被捕。
He ended up locked up largely because he got arrested for drunk driving while he was awaiting trial.
现在他只希望能找到工作。
Now he just wants to find work.
但考虑到我背负着叛乱者的污名，即便获得了赦免，也很少有公司愿意让我担任面向客户的职位。
But given the scarlet eye of insurrection that I wear, even despite the pardons, you know, very few companies are willing to put you in a forward facing role.
福克斯表示，他希望特朗普能为1月6日事件的被告们争取赔偿金，以补偿他们被捕的损失。
Fox said he's hoping that Trump will get the January 6 defendant's money, restitution, to compensate for their arrests.
目前，阿什利·巴比特的家人已从与特朗普政府的和解中获得了近500万美元，但尚不清楚政府是否会采取进一步行动。
So far, the family of Ashley Babbitt has received nearly $5,000,000 from a settlement with the Trump administration, but it's unclear if the administration will go any further.
你知道，尽管经历了这一切，失去了这么多，我依然不会改变任何决定。
You know, despite everything that I have experienced, lost, given up, I wouldn't change anything about it.
真的吗？
Really?
绝对不后悔。
Absolutely.
即使知道会失去工作也在所不惜？
Even with everything with the job loss Knowing job loss.
一切照旧。
Do everything the same.
一切。
Everything.
我唯一可能会改变的事，可能就是多带一台GoPro相机，多拍些镜头。
The only thing I would probably do different is maybe bring another GoPro and get some more footage.
但归根结底，你知道，我仍然相信——我应该说，我确信2020年的大选并不干净。
But ultimately, you know, I still believe, and I would say I I I know that the election in 2020 wasn't clean.
我相信我当时在那里所做的，正是每个美国人都应该做的——表达他们的关切，支持他们心仪的总统候选人。
I believe that I was there doing what every American should have done, and that's voicing their concerns, supporting their preferred presidential candidate.
但还有杰森·里德尔的情况。
But then there's Jason Riddle.
他原本已不再支持特朗普，但后来特朗普给了他全面赦免。
He had stopped supporting Trump, but then Trump offered him a full pardon.
这虽不能抹去所有关于他案件的新闻报道，但能清除他的犯罪记录——那种雇主会过问、他至今在机场仍因此被刁难的事。
It would not wipe away all the news stories about his case, but it would clear his criminal record, the kind of thing employers ask about, the kind of thing that he said he still gets hassled over at the airport.
有那么一瞬间，他动摇了。
And for a moment, he thought about it.
但随后他让律师发了一封信，正式拒绝了赦免。
But then he asked his lawyer to send a letter formally rejecting the pardon.
我不能...我不能接受，你知道，已经有警察牺牲了。
I can't I can't accept, you know, this is cops have died.
特朗普在纵容犯罪行为。
Trump is promoting criminal behavior.
那是犯罪行为。
That was a criminal act.
1月6日是一场犯罪。
January 6 was a crime.
我认为这最终会导致更多人丧生。
And I think it's gonna result in more death eventually.
还会发生另一场暴乱。
There's gonna be another riot.
如果你继续宣扬这些谎言，事情会变得更糟。
Something's gonna happen if you keep promoting these lies.
这就是1月6日事件的本质。
That's what January 6 was.
那是他谎言导致的结果。
It was a result of his lies.
所以我不想重蹈覆辙。
So I don't wanna go down that path.
我会不惜一切代价避免这种情况。
I'm just gonna avoid that at all costs.
在特朗普赦免令之后，1月6日受伤的警察们也在思考他们的未来。
In the aftermath of Trump's pardons, the police officers who were injured on January 6 are also figuring out where they go next.
迈克尔·法农一直在找工作。
Michael Fanon has been looking for work.
由于伤势严重，加上感觉不到警局上司的支持，他已于2021年辞职。
Because of his injuries and the fact that he felt no support from his bosses at the police department, he resigned back in 2021.
当我坐下来与他交谈时，我们一起观看了他在暴乱中佩戴的执法记录仪画面。
When I sat down to talk with him, we watched his body cam footage from the riot together.
在整个采访过程中，最令人惊讶的是我们看完他求生的片段后他所说的话。
And the most surprising thing in that whole interview was what he said after we watched the moments when he was pleading for his life.
看到这些画面是什么感受？
How does it feel to watch that?
你知道，我...这让我...反而让我怀念起那份工作了。
You know, I I it doesn't it makes me miss the job.
真的吗？
Really?
是啊。
Yeah.
为什么？
Why?
我是说，我很喜欢当警察。
I mean, I love being a cop.
我确实如此。
I really did.
这就像是那种会吞噬你的职业之一。
And it was like I mean, it's one of those professions that just, like, you know, like, cannibalizes you.
它逐渐成为了你的全部身份。
Like, it just becomes your entire identity.
二十年来，那就是我的全部。
And for twenty years, like, that's who I was.
我的社交圈全是警察，孩子们也和警察的孩子一起玩耍。
All my social circles were cops, and, you know, my kids played with other cops' kids.
现在回看这些，那是我最后一次当警察了。
And, yeah, you watch this now, and it's like, it's the last time I got to be a cop.
那确实是我职业生涯的最后一天。
That's literally the last day of my career.
我想很多人会惊讶于你这么说，考虑到这可能是你警察生涯中最糟糕的一天，你却对此有种近乎怀念的感觉？
I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear you say, this is almost nostalgic in a way for you given how it was probably the worst day of your career in policing?
我是说，
I mean, like,
那天的暴力程度是否极其严重？
was it incredibly violent?
是的。
Yes.
你知道，1月6日那天是否令人创伤？
You know, was January 6 traumatic?
是的。
Yes.
它比我职业生涯中其他经历更具创伤性吗？
Was it more traumatic than other experiences in my career?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我是说，真正令人创伤的是之后发生的一切。
I mean, what was traumatic was everything that happened afterwards.
就像，我们仍然活在我他妈的心理创伤之中。
Like, I'm we're still living in the midst of my fucking trauma.
你知道，有个总统他妈的特赦了所有袭击我的人，还称他们为爱国者。
You know, I've got a president that fucking pardoned all the people that assaulted me, called them patriots.
全国50%的人认为我是国家的叛徒。
50% of the country thinks I'm a traitor to the country.
我每天都会收到死亡威胁。
I get death threats every single fucking day.
我失去了我的事业。
I lost my career.
我失去了我的朋友。
I lost my friends.
我整个生活天翻地覆，全因为我履行了工作职责。
They I had my entire life turned upside down all because of me doing my job.
虽然无法直接将其与1月6日事件联系起来，但我已被诊断出患有重度抑郁症、焦虑适应障碍和创伤后应激障碍症状。
I can't draw a straight line between this and the six, but I've been diagnosed with major depressive disorder, anxiety adjustment disorder, and PTSD symptoms.
丹尼尔·霍奇斯，那位在1月6日隧道内遭反复袭击并被门挤压的警察，他至今仍在警队任职。
Daniel Hodges, the cop who was repeatedly assaulted and then crushed inside a door in that tunnel on January 6, he is still with the police department.
但国会大厦暴乱彻底改变了他的人生。
But the Capitol riot has changed his life.
本质上，我还是原来的我。
Fundamentally, I'm still the same person.
我依然珍视相同的价值观。
I still value the same things.
我依然追求同样的目标。
I still want the same things.
这让我多了几分伤感，因为在六号事件后我曾满怀希望——觉得这就是转折点。
It's made me a little sadder because I was really hopeful after the sixth that this is it.
目睹了刚刚发生的一切后，不可能还有人愿意支持这些人了。
Nobody can see what just transpired here and want to support these people anymore.
这让我感到悲伤。
That's made me sad.
这让我对人性有些失望，但并未完全绝望。
It's made me a little bitter about humanity, but not completely.
我依然怀有希望。
I still have hope.
我仍然相信我们可以变得更好。
I still believe that we can be better.
经过过去五年对1月6日事件的报道，很明显那天不止有一个故事。
After covering January 6 these past five years, it's clear that there is not just one story about that day.
那一千五百个案件背后，是一千五百多个加害者与受害者的故事。
Those 1,500 cases represent more than 1,500 stories of perpetrators and victims.
关于那天还有许多真实的故事有待讲述，其中一些尚未被提及。
There are a lot of true stories to tell about that day, some that have yet to be told.
但有一个故事从根本上就是错误的。
But there is one story that is wrong on a fundamental level.
那就是特朗普总统的说法——他称1月6日是'充满爱的一天'。
It's president Trump's story, that January 6 was a, quote, day of love.
因为当我与当时在场的人交谈时——那些担心自己生命的国会议员、遭受殴打的警察、逝者的家属，甚至是那些冲击国会大厦的人。
Because when I've talked to people who were there, the members of congress who feared for their lives, the police officers who were beaten, the family members of people who died, and even the people who stormed the capital.
我所看到的是一天中的损失。
What I see is a day of loss.
像迈克尔·法农和丹尼尔·霍奇斯这样的警官告诉我，他们知道通过讲述自己经历的暴力真相，无法改变任何人的想法。
Officers like Michael Fanon and Daniel Hodges told me they know they're not gonna change anyone's minds by telling the true story of the violence they experienced.
所以他们都告诉我，他们会谈论这件事，但现在是为了未来，为了历史。
So both told me they'll talk about it, but now it's for the future, for history.
这就是检察官格雷格·罗森仍在发声的原因。
That is the same reason Greg Rosen, the prosecutor, is still talking.
因此，我认为令人失望的是，人们竟相信他们当天对警察、国会议员乃至国会机构本身的所作所为在某种意义上是正当或正义的。但我希望这段起诉史不仅被这些情绪所铭记，更能通过法庭案件的历史记录，以及未来数十年后的定论来留存。
And so, you know, I think it's disappointing that people believe that what they did to police officers on that day or what they did to members of congress or what they did to the institution itself was somehow justified or righteous, but I'm hoping that the history of this prosecution is not simply memorialized by those feelings, but by the historical record in the court cases, and then eventually what happens years and decades later.
可能我们现在2025年讲述的历史，到2035年或2045年又会是另一番叙述。
That it may be the history as we tell it right now in 2025 won't be the history that we tell in 2035 or 2045.
这就是我的期望。
That's my hope.
本期节目由莫妮卡·埃斯塔蒂耶娃制作，音频工程由罗伯特·罗德里格斯负责。
This episode was produced by Monika Estatieva with audio engineering by Robert Rodriguez.
由巴里·哈迪曼担任编辑。
It was edited by Barry Hardiman.
我们的执行制作人是萨米·耶尼甘。
Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.
这里是NPR的《考虑一下》节目。
It's consider this from NPR.
我是斯科特·德特罗。
I'm Scott Dettrow.
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Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?
亚马逊Prime会员可通过Amazon Music收听无广告版《考虑一下》，您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，并通过+.npr.org获取《考虑一下》Plus版。
Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.
网址是+.npr.org。
That's +.npr.org.
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