美国投入数十亿美元重建阿富汗。此举成功了吗？

这是来自NPR的报道。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是玛丽·露易丝·凯利。

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

每隔一个星期六，我们会为NPR Plus支持者提供一集特别节目。

Every other Saturday, we share a bonus episode for our NPR Plus supporters.

今天，我们将这集节目向所有人开放，以便尚未成为支持者的您也能体验一下NPR Plus的内容。

Today, we are making that episode available to everyone so you can get a taste of NPR Plus if you are not a supporter yet.

如果您已经是支持者，非常感谢您的支持。

And if you are, thank you so much for your support.

您可以通过 +.npr.org 了解更多关于NPR Plus的信息。

You can learn more about NPR Plus at +.npr.org.

该链接在我们的节目备注中。

That link is in our episode notes.

二十年。

Twenty years.

注意美国从2001年入侵到2021年混乱撤军，在阿富汗作战了多久。

Notice how long The US fought Afghanistan from the invasion in 2001 to the chaotic withdrawal in 2021.

美国投入了数十亿美元重建该国，而现在我们首次全面统计了这些资金究竟换来了什么。

The United States has poured billions into rebuilding the country, and now we have the fullest accounting yet of what those billions bought.

这份统计来自美国政府的一家监督机构——阿富汗重建特别监察长办公室，简称SIGAR。

It comes in the form of a report from a US government watchdog, the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction known as SIGGR.

这是SIGAR的最终报告。

This is the final report from SIGGR.

该机构下个月将解散，它记录了——我引述原文——一项长达二十年、充满浪费的努力。

The agency shuts down next month, and it chronicles, and I am quoting, a two decade long effort fraught with waste.

约翰·萨普科曾担任阿富汗重建特别监察长。

John Sapko was the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction.

多年来，我们多次采访过他。

We have interviewed him many times over the years.

今天，他亲自来到演播室与我面对面。

Today, he's in the studio with me in person.

萨普科先生，很高兴再次见到您并与您交谈。

Mister Sapko, good to see you and speak with you once again.

谢谢您邀请我。

Well, thank you for inviting me.

能来到这里我感到非常荣幸。

It is a pleasure to be here.

这份报告长达137页。

So this is a report that runs a 137 pages.

它总结了多年来的全部工作，全面反映了SIGAR的成果。

It summarizes years, the full accounting, the totality of Sigar's work.

如果让我用一两句话写个标题，您会怎么说？

If I were to ask you to write the headline in a sentence or two, what would it be?

标题是：我们在阿富汗花了二十年，投入了1440亿美元用于重建，但其中绝大多数都失败了。

The headline is we spent twenty years in Afghanistan and spent a $144,000,000,000 on reconstruction, and the vast majority of it was a failure.

这份报告指出了这些失败，并根据我们所有的审计、调查和检查，确定了实际浪费的金额，约为260亿至290亿美元。

This report identified the failures and identified how much that we determined based upon all of our audits, investigations and inspections, etc, how much was actually wasted, which came to about $26,000,000,000 26 to $29,000,000,000.

给我一个关于这种浪费的具体例子。

Give me a concrete example of that waste.

我们从意大利购买了大约20架飞机，这些飞机原本躺在西西里岛的一个废品场里。

Well, we bought about 20 airplanes from Italy that were in a junkyard in Sicily.

我们买下它们，打算运到阿富汗，让阿富汗人学习如何驾驶这些飞机。

We purchased them to send over to Afghanistan for the Afghans to learn how to fly these planes.

它们是C-130的缩小版。

They're like smaller versions of the c one thirty.

它们被称为C-27J。

They're called g triple twos.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

我们为此花了大约4亿8000万美元，但这些飞机根本飞不起来。

And 400, I believe, $480,000,000 on it, and the planes couldn't fly.

它们几乎一到手就被废弃了。

They basically were trashed almost immediately.

意思是根本就飞不起来？

Like, literally couldn't get off the ground?

嗯，它们能飞，但零件会掉下来。

Well, they could, but parts fell off.

我刚读到另一个例子。

I was reading another example.

审计署发现了一个三月发电厂，是美国国际开发署的发电厂，其运行容量不到1%。

Sigar found a March power plant, a USAID power plant, that it was operating at less than 1% of its capacity.

不到1%。

Less than 1%.

没错。

That's correct.

这也是我们发现的问题之一。

That was one of the things we found too.

而且那是一个非常好的发电厂。

And it was a very good power plant.

问题是他们根本不需要它。

Problem is they didn't need it.

它根本没有接入电网，也没有可供连接的电网。

It wasn't really connected, and there wasn't a grid for it to be connected.

这些都是我们看到的情况。

Those are the type of things we saw.

我们看到了熔化的建筑。

We saw buildings that melted.

我们看到了从未完工的道路。

We saw roads that were never completed.

桥梁倒塌了。

Bridges that fell down.

你所说的突显了我对这份报告的关键结论之一：问题不在资金。

What you're speaking highlights one of my key takeaways from this report, which was the problem wasn't money.

并不是缺乏资金。

It wasn't a lack of funds.

情况几乎恰恰相反。

It it was almost the opposite.

美国在该国投入了过多且过快的资金，而报告指出，该国根本无力吸收这些资金。

The US spent way too much money, way too fast in a country that the report says was woefully unprepared to absorb it.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

这正是主要问题。

That that is the big problem.

在许多方面，我们自己成了最大的敌人，其中之一就是涌入的资金数量过多。

We were our worst enemy in many ways, and one was with just the amount of money funneling in.

这些钱最终流向了哪里？

And where the money ended up going to?

嗯。

Mhmm.

这不仅仅是美国承包商或国际承包商的问题。

It wasn't just US contractors or international contractors.

很多钱都流向了阿富汗承包商，主要是那些与阿富汗军阀有某种关联的阿富汗承包商，因为我们与他们交好了。

A lot of the money was going to Afghan contractors, and mainly Afghan contractors who were somehow connected to Afghan warlords because we befriended them.

他们利用与我们人员的关系获取资金，这不仅浪费了钱，还激怒了喀布尔以外的普通阿富汗人。

They used their connections with our people to get the money, and this alienated not only did it waste the money, but it alienated the average Afghan out in outside of Kabul.

我们本质上就是问题本身。

We were basically the problem.

我记得我母亲说过：‘如果你和狗一起睡觉，醒来就会满身跳蚤。’

I remember my mother saying, If you go to bed with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

好吧，如果你和军阀、寡头，或者你愿意称他们为任何其他名字的人同床，那么第二天早上你就得向普通阿富汗人解释，为什么你要这么做，因为这些人正是他们憎恨的对象，也正是这些人，他们当初把他们赶走，才请来了塔利班。

Well, you go to bed with warlords, or oligarchs, or whatever you want to call them, you end up in the morning having to explain to the average Afghan why you're doing that because these were the people who they hated, and these are the people who they kicked out to bring in the Taliban the first time.

那我们做了什么？

So what did we do?

我们和这些人交了朋友。

We made friends with those people.

在迎接2025年跨年倒计时时，收听NPR音乐频道的《All Songs Considered》播客，回顾今年最热门的歌曲和专辑。

As you prepare for the ball drop on 2025, listen to NPR Music's All Songs Considered podcast as we look back at the biggest songs and albums of the year.

从不容错过的热门歌曲到你可能没听过的精彩作品。

From the unmissable hits to the fascinating other stuff you might not have heard.

在您收听播客的平台搜索《All Songs Considered》，回听2025年最出色的歌曲与专辑。

Search for All Songs Considered wherever you get podcasts to hear us run back some of the best of the best of 2025.

紧跟新闻动态可能让人感觉像一份24小时不停的工作。

Keeping up with the news can feel like a twenty four hour job.

幸运的是，这正是我们的工作。

Luckily, it is our job.

在NPR News Now播客中，每小时我们都会精选最新、最重要的新闻事件，制作成五分钟的短节目，让您在会议间隙或赶路途中轻松收听。

Every hour on the NPR News Now podcast, we take the latest, most important stories happening, and we package them into five minute episodes so you can easily squeeze them in between meetings and on your way to that thing.

收听NPR News Now播客。

Listen to the NPR News Now podcast.

现在

Now

您关心世界上正在发生的事。

You care about what's happening in the world.

通过NPR的《世界现状》播客及时了解全球动态。

Stay informed with NPR's State of the World podcast.

只需几分钟，我们就带您了解世界各地的故事。

In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe.

您可能会听到有关全球冲突的最新进展，或全球事件如何影响您的咖啡价格。

You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean for the price of your coffee.

收听NPR的《世界现状》播客。

Listen to the State of the World podcast from NPR.

约翰·索普科，我将您识别为前特别监察长。

John Sopko, I identified you as the former special inspector general.

您是去年一月被特朗普总统解雇的多名监察长之一。

You were among a number of inspectors general fired by president Trump back in January.

对吗？

Correct?

他为这一决定辩护，称所有解雇都是合理的。

He has defended that decision, the firings across the board.

白宫将此归因于优先事项的改变。

The White House has cited changing priorities as the reason.

这让我想问，您在最终的核算中参与了多少？

It does prompt me to ask, how involved were you in this final accounting?

我提出了这个想法并推动了它的启动，在一月之前审阅了不知多少份草稿。

I originated the idea and got it going and reviewed, don't know, how many drafts before January.

这份报告在夏天时几乎已完成，或者本应完成。

The report was almost done or should have been done toward the summer.

它并没有太大的变化。

It it didn't change too much.

当您提出警示时，比如，嘿，各位。

When you raised red flags, like, hey, guys.

我们正在花费数十亿美元，而这些钱却被浪费了。

We're spending billions, and it's being wasted.

我知道您提出了警示，因为您经常在国会山作证。

And I know you raised red flags because you testified frequently on Capitol Hill.

你接受了很多采访。

You gave a bunch of interviews.

在你记录这件事的这些年里，我和你一起做过一些采访。

I did some of them with you over the years that you were chronicling this.

当你向华盛顿的政策制定者发出警告时，他们是怎么说的？

When you raised red flags to policymakers in Washington, what'd they say?

有一些国会议员表示支持，但我觉得我们本应在报告中更深入地探讨一个问题：为什么我们的所有警告都付诸东流。

There was some support by some members of congress, but that's one of the issues I think we should have addressed more in in the report is why did all of our warnings go to naught.

基本上，他们的回应是：‘非常感谢，索普科先生。’

And, basically, it was, thank you very much, mister Sopko.

你做得非常好。

You're doing a wonderful job.

就是那种轻轻拍拍头的鼓励。

You know, a little pat on the head.

继续好好干。

You know, keep up your good work.

他们只是继续投入资金。

And they just continued pumping the money.

这引发了一个问题：为什么？

It prompts the question, why?

为什么会有如此大的惯性？

Why was there so much inertia?

为什么这份由美国政府资助的监督机构撰写的报告没有得到更严肃的对待？

Why wasn't this documented report by a US government funded watchdog taken more seriously?

为什么没有任何改变？

Why didn't anything change?

我认为，部分原因是，一旦开始这样的事情，就有一种继续下去的倾向。

Part of it, I think, is that once you start something like this, there's a tendency to just keep it going.

没有人愿意成为那个站出来说‘我认为这是个错误’的将军、大使或援助负责人。

Nobody wants to be the general or the ambassador or the aid administrator who says, well, I think it was a mistake.

这就是人性。

That's human nature.

我们指出了这一点，说皇帝根本没穿衣服。

We confronted that, and we were saying the emperor had no clothes.

我们在阿富汗所做的一切根本不起作用，但人们不想听这些。

What we were doing in Afghanistan was not working, and people didn't wanna hear that.

这里有什么能让我们相信教训已经吸取了吗？

Is there anything here that should give us hope that lessons have been learned?

我在想当今世界各地的战争，比如乌克兰和加沙。

I'm thinking about wars around the world today, Ukraine, Gaza.

美国 presumably 将参与重建工作。

The US is presumably gonna be involved in reconstruction.

有什么能让你感到希望，认为这次会做得更好、更有问责性吗？

Anything that gives you hope that this will be done better with more accountability?

没有。

No.

我通常是个乐观主义者，但不，我看不出希望。

I I usually try to be an optimist, but, no, I don't see it.

特别是美国国际开发署被解散后，你彻底消除了政府开展重建工作的所有监督和能力。

Particularly with the destruction of USAID, you eliminated all oversight, all capability in the government to carry out a reconstruction effort.

但公平地说，我们刚才谈到的美国国际开发署在阿富汗的项目，其运营效率还不到1%。

Although in fairness, we were just talking about a USAID plant that was operating at less than 1% capacity in Afghanistan.

这并不是说美国国际开发署没有犯很多错误，我认为这确实是个问题。

This is not to say that USAID did not make a lot of mistakes, and I think that was a problem.

许多美国国际开发署的管理人员前来作证，却一味地吹嘘他们取得的种种巨大成功。

And a lot of the USAID administrators came in testified and gave happy talk about all the great successes they were doing.

但在实地工作的基层人员，才是你真正拥有发展专长的地方。

But the worker bees out in the field, that's where your expertise was on development.

他们都走了。

They're gone.

他们要么退休了，要么被解雇了。

They've all taken retirement and have been fired.

所以，如果我们真的要进行重建——我认为我们计划在乌克兰投入数十亿美元的重建资金，如果他们也要在加沙开展重建，那专业人才在哪里？

So if we do do reconstruction, and I think we're planning to do billions of dollars of reconstruction in The Ukraine, if they are gonna do reconstruction in Gaza, where's the expertise?

根本没有。

There is none.

所以，如果我们贸然介入，我不抱乐观态度，因为我们缺乏这种专业知识。

So I'm not optimistic if we go in there because we don't have that expertise.

约翰·索普科。

John Sopko.

他从2012年到今年一月一直担任阿富汗重建特别监察长。

He was special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction from 2012 until this past January.

他一直与我们讨论其前机构的最终报告。

He's been speaking with us about the final report from his former agency.

约翰·索普科，谢谢。

John Sopko, thanks.

不客气。

You're welcome.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

再次提醒，您可以通过 +.npr.org 支持公共媒体。

Once again, you can go to +.npr.org to support public media.

作为感谢，您将获得来自多个 NPR 播客的独家附加集，包括这一期。

And as a thank you, you get bonus episodes like this one from many different NPR podcasts.

您还可以享受无广告收听体验以及其他诸多优质福利，详情请访问 +.npr.org。

You also get sponsor free listening and lots of other great perks, +.npr.org.

本集由丹尼尔·奥夫曼和凯瑟琳·芬克制作。

This episode was produced by Daniel Offman and Catherine Fink.

本集由珍妮特·伍兹剪辑。

It was edited by Jeanette Woods.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

我是玛丽·路易丝·凯利。

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

感谢收听，也感谢您支持 NPR 的《Consider This》节目。

Thanks for listening, and thanks for supporting Consider This from NPR.

抽出时间关注新闻很重要。

Making time for the news is important.

但当你需要休息时，我们为你准备了NPR的音乐播客《All Songs Considered》。

But when you need a break, we've got you covered on All Songs Considered, NPR's music podcast.

把它想象成一档音乐发现节目、一场与朋友共度的应得逃离，以及一些深刻的音乐见解。

Think of it like a music discovery show, a well deserved escape with friends, and, yeah, some serious music insight.

我是个真实的人。

I'm a keep it real.

我不知道

I have no idea what

这个故事讲的是什么。

the story is about.

每周二，你可以在任何播客平台收听《All Songs Considered》的新集。

Here are new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts.

NPR的播客《Trump's Terms》为你提供关于特朗普政府重大新闻的当日更新。

NPR's podcast Trump's Terms is your source for same day updates on big news about the Trump administration.

短小精悍的集数，每期聚焦一个主题，时长约五分钟。

Short, focused episodes, one topic at a time, about five minutes or so.

我们精选来自NPR全部报道的新闻内容，确保您始终获取最重要、最紧迫的新闻。

We curate reporting from across all of NPR's coverage so you are always getting the biggest, most urgent stories.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听《特朗普的条款》。

Listen to Trump's terms on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

想在没有广告中断的情况下收听这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过Amazon Music无广告收听《Consider This》，或者您也可以通过访问+.npr.org支持NPR的重要新闻报道，并获取《Consider This Plus》。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.