特朗普总统称美军控制马杜罗后将接管委内瑞拉

委内瑞拉总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗及其妻子已被美国拘捕。

Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro and his wife are in US custody.

这对夫妇是在1月3日凌晨开始的一次激烈美军行动中被抓获的。

The couple was seized in an aggressive US military operation that began in the early morning hours of January 3.

美国军队仅用两个多小时、150架飞机，就瓦解了委内瑞拉的防空系统。

It took American forces just over two hours, 150 aircraft, and the dismantling of Venezuela's air defenses.

那么，这一切是如何发生的？接下来会发生什么？

So how did this happen, and what happens next?

我们在NPR的国家安全播客《消息来源与方法》中对此进行了详细分析，今天将分享这一集。

We broke all this down on NPR's national security podcast sources and methods, and we're gonna share that episode in today's feed.

这是NPR的《请思考》节目。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是玛丽·路易丝·凯利。

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

这条信息来自Wise，一款为全球使用跨境资金的国际人士设计的应用。

This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

您只需轻点几下，即可发送、消费和接收多达40种货币。

You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

聪明一点。

Be smart.

使用Wise。

Get Wise.

立即下载Wise应用或访问wise.com。

Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

条款和条件适用。

Ts and cs apply.

这是NPR的This Is Considered。

It's considered this from NPR.

经过数月的威胁、警告、扣押涉嫌毒品船只、打击油轮，美国与委内瑞拉之间的紧张关系如今已达到这一地步。

After months of threats, months of warnings, seizing of alleged drug boats, targeting oil tankers, tensions between The United States and Venezuela have now come to this.

一夜之间，特朗普总统下令美军进入委内瑞拉，逮捕领导人尼古拉斯·马杜罗及其妻子塞莉亚·弗洛雷斯。

Overnight, president Trump ordered American forces to enter Venezuela and capture leader Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores.

两人现在被引渡到纽约，将面临与涉嫌毒品贩运和毒品恐怖主义阴谋相关的指控。

The two are now being extradited to New York where they will face charges related to alleged drug trafficking and narcoterrorism conspiracies.

与此同时，特朗普总统今天早上表示了这一点。

Meanwhile, president Trump this morning said this.

在我们能够实现安全、妥善和审慎的权力交接之前，我们将继续管理国家。

We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper, and judicious transition.

因此，我们不希望卷入让他人上台，导致我们再次陷入过去多年来的同样局面。

So we don't wanna be involved with, having somebody else get in, and we have the same situation that we had for the last long period of years.

听到这些话真是令人震惊。

Just stunning to hear those words.

我们将继续管理国家。

We are going to run the country.

为了帮助我理解这一切，盖格·迈尔，他负责报道国家安全事务。

To help me try to make sense of it, Greg Myrie, who covers national security.

嘿，格雷格。

Hey, Greg.

嗨，玛丽·露易丝。

Hi, Mary Louise.

还有五角大楼记者汤姆·鲍曼。

And Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman.

嗨，嗨，玛丽·露易丝。

Hey, Hey, Mary Louise.

汤姆，你先说说我们知道的情况。

Tom, you start with what we know.

这一切是怎么发生的？

How did all this unfold?

嗯，特朗普昨晚大约十一点下达了命令。

Well, Trump gave the order last night around eleven.

代号为‘绝对决心’的行动于东部时间凌晨1点左右开始。

The operation called absolute resolve started around 1AM eastern time.

美国空袭摧毁了委内瑞拉的防空系统。

US airstrikes took out Venezuelan air defenses.

你知道吗，那些很可能是我们在当地视频中看到的爆炸。

You know, those were likely explosions we could see from local videos.

然后，一支美国特种作战部队乘坐直升机，贴地仅100英尺飞抵马杜罗的住所。

And then a US special operations unit arrived at Maduro's house by helicopter flying just 100 feet above the ground.

这是三角洲部队吗？

This was Delta Force?

是的，是三角洲部队。

It it was Delta Force.

他们冲进房子，引发了爆炸。

They went into the house explosions.

是的。

Yeah.

马杜罗试图通过一扇钢门逃进安全室。

And Maduro tried to flee through the steel door into a safe room.

他和妻子都被俘虏了。

Both he and his wife were taken.

直到直升机离开时才听到任何枪声，其中一架直升机中弹，但官员称其仍可飞行。

No sense of any gunfire until the helicopters were leaving, and one took some fire, but officials said it was flyable.

直升机撤离时仅有少量交火，他们进行了防御性射击。

Few skirmishes as the helicopters were leaving, and they engaged in defensive fire.

没有美国人员伤亡，玛丽·露易莎，目前尚无委内瑞拉方面伤亡的消息。

No US casualties, and no word yet, Mary Louisa, on Venezuelan casualties.

整个行动大约持续了两个半小时。

It was all over in about two and a half hours.

马杜罗和他的妻子被直升机送往‘硫磺岛号’两栖攻击舰，随后他们现在抵达纽约，那里的一项起诉书指控他们与马杜罗的儿子及两名官员涉嫌毒品贩运。

Maduro and his wife were taken by helicopter to the USS Iwo Jima, and then they're now in New York where an indictment is charging them along with Maduro's son and two officials with narco trafficking.

这是一次大规模行动，动用了150架飞机，从F-35到B-1轰炸机，再到无人机和侦察机，官员称整个行动完全出其不意。

This was a huge operation, a 150 aircraft, everything from f 35 to b one bombers to drones to surveillance aircraft, and officials said it was done with complete surprise.

是的。

Yeah.

关于这一点我再补充一下，就是完全出其不意这一点，因为此前一直有关于美国情报的疑问，以及我们对马杜罗行踪的了解程度。

That's I one follow-up on that, the complete surprise element because there have been all these questions about US intelligence and how good it was, how much we knew about Maduro's movements.

我们知道他们是怎么找到他的吗？

Do we know how they found him?

嗯，参联会主席丹·凯恩将军表示，他们很可能通过情报来源掌握了他所在的位置，而特朗普几周前就提到过，中央情报局已经派员潜入地面。

Well, Joint Chiefs chairman general Dan Kane said they knew his location likely through intelligence sources, and Trump had already said a few weeks ago, remember, the CIA was on the ground.

因此，凯恩将军长期进行了所谓的‘生活模式’分析。

So general Kane mounted what's called a pattern of life for some time.

他说，我们了解他的行动、生活、出行和饮食方式，因此一直在持续监视他。

He said we knew how he moved, lived, traveled, ate, so they were watching him steadily.

凯恩还表示，国家安全局也参与其中，他们拦截了通信和电话。

And Kane said the National Security Agency was involved, so they were intercepting communications, phone calls.

他还提到，国家地理空间局也参与了行动，该机构提供其卫星拍摄的照片。

And he also said the National Geospatial Agency was involved as well, which provides photos from its satellite.

因此，他们很可能对他的位置和全天候的活动有了非常完整的了解。

So they likely had a very complete picture of where he was and what he was doing around the clock.

现在我们得知，美国已经为此次行动筹划和训练了数月，并且建造了马杜罗住所的仿制模型。

Now we're told The US has been planning and training for this operation for months, and it included building a mock up, a model of Maduro's home.

正如你所知，玛丽·露易丝，情报部门处理这种行动时，这种情况很常见。

And as you know, Mary Louise, coming at Intel, this is common for operations like this.

海军海豹六队在2011年袭击巴基斯坦本·拉登的住所前，也曾做过类似的事情。

The navy seal team six did something similar before they assaulted Osama bin Laden's compound back in Pakistan in 2011.

我见过那个模型。

I have seen that model.

前中情局局长比尔·伯恩斯过去常把它放在兰利总部七楼的办公室里。

The former CIA director Bill Burns used to keep it in his office on the 7th Floor at at headquarters at Langley.

格雷格·迈尔，总结一下，我们有一位美国总统——特朗普总统，他派兵进入另一个主权国家，逮捕了该国领导人，并将他秘密带离该国。

Greg Myrie, just to sum up here, we have an American president, president Trump, who has sent troops to another country, a sovereign country, arrested its leader, spirited him out of the country.

这合法吗？

Is this legal?

当然，有很多人表示反对，尤其是国会中的民主党人。

Well, you certainly have a lot of folks saying no, especially Democrats in Congress.

民主党认为，国会必须授权战争和使用武力，今天我们已经看到民主党接连发表声明，称特朗普的行动是非法升级。

The Democrats say Congress needs to authorize war and the use of military force, and we've seen this stream of statements today from Democrats saying things like Trump's action is an illegal escalation.

他正在践踏宪法。

He's trampling the constitution.

这是滥用权力。

It's an abuse of power.

现在，特朗普团队试图将此描绘为一项军事行动，是执法行动的一部分。

Now Trump's team is trying to portray this as a military action, which was part of a law enforcement operation.

马杜罗于2020年被指控贩毒及其他罪名。

Maduro was indicted in 2020 on drug trafficking and other charges.

他们今天更新了这项起诉书。

They updated that indictment today.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这仅仅是想把他带到美国接受审判。

And this was just an effort to bring him to justice in The US.

但显然，这远远超出了一个法律案件的范畴。

But, obviously, this is much larger than just a legal case.

正如我们所指出的，一位外国领导人已被推翻，特朗普称美国将在这个国家掌权一段不确定的时间。

A foreign leader has been ousted, as we noted, Trump says The US will be in charge of the country for some indefinite time.

是的。

Yeah.

这引出了我的下一个问题：这将如何运作？

That tees up my next question, which is how is that gonna work?

美国在一段不确定的时间内统治委内瑞拉。

The US running Venezuela for some indefinite period of time.

是的。

Yeah.

目前还非常不清楚。

Very unclear at this point.

现在特朗普说，这一行动将由他在新闻发布会上站在一起的那些人来执行。

Now Trump said it would be done with some of those standing with him at the news conference.

国务卿马可·卢比奥、国防部长赫格塞斯，将与委内瑞拉的领导人或相关人员协调合作。

Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Pentagon Chief Hegseth, working in coordination with the leaders or people in Venezuela.

现在，特朗普一向有在其他事务中宣布胜利后便迅速抽身的名声。

Now, Trump does have this reputation of declaring victory and then moving on in other sorts of endeavors.

但他确实承认，重建委内瑞拉将是一项挑战。

But he did acknowledge rebuilding Venezuela would be a challenge.

他说，你知道，如果美国直接撤出，委内瑞拉将毫无恢复的可能。

He said, you know, if The US just left, there would be zero chance of it coming back.

因此，特朗普在本届政府期间对军事行动更为激进，总是派遣军队，这似乎曾是一条红线。

And so Trump has been, you know, much more aggressive with the military in this term by by sending and sending troops always seem to be a red line.

但这次，他似乎并不在意。

But this time it didn't seem to bother him.

正如我们所提到的，他说：‘我不怕派地面部队。’

As we've noted, he said, I'm not afraid to put boots on the ground.

我们并不介意明说。

We don't mind saying it.

这正是我们需要的。

That's what we need.

但你知道，目前美军并没有驻扎在那里，美国也没有外交人员在那里。

But, you know, the the troops aren't there right now, and The US doesn't have diplomats there.

美国大使馆自2019年以来一直关闭。

The the US embassy has been closed since 2019.

从特朗普第一任期开始。

Since Trump's first term.

那么，美国在目前至少没有存在的情况下，如何管理一个国家呢？

So how is The US going to run a country when it really doesn't have a presence at least at the moment?

那么，委内瑞拉民众对此有何看法呢？

What about the question of how actual Venezuelans feel about this?

他们是否会欢迎美军地面部队进驻，无论最终形式如何？

Are they likely to welcome US boots on the ground, whatever that may end up looking like?

是的。

Yeah.

这似乎是一个几乎无法明确回答的问题，也正因如此，它才如此危险且充满不确定性。

That's that seems a question that's almost impossible to answer clearly, and it's why it's so risky and it's it's so uncertain.

你知道，这个国家状况糟糕透顶。

You know, the country's in terrible shape.

经济实际上已经崩溃了。

The economy has effectively collapsed.

他们在2024年举行了一次总统选举。

They had a presidential election in 2024.

根据独立观察员的说法，选民 overwhelmingly 反对马杜罗及其政党，投了反对票。

Voters appeared according to independent monitors to overwhelmingly go against Maduro and his party, vote against him.

他们说他操纵了选举。

They say he rigged the election.

因此，肯定有很多委内瑞拉人非常希望他下台。

So there there are certainly a lot of Venezuelans who who are probably very happy to see him go.

但他也有支持者。

But he had his supporters.

他有很多人依赖他获得各种福利。

He has a lot of people who depended on him for for for their benefits.

军队会怎么做？

What will the military do?

因此，这并不意味着大多数或所有委内瑞拉人都会支持一个新政府。

So it doesn't automatically mean that that most or all Venezuelans are are going to be, supporting, a a new, a new government.

玛丽·路易丝，如果我可以补充一点的话。

And, Mary Louise, if I could just add.

请说。

Please.

你知道，特朗普和其他人曾说委内瑞拉副总统德尔西·罗德里格斯会与美国合作，但我们实际上还没有听到她的任何消息。

You know, Trump said and others have said that the Venezuelan vice president, Delsy Rodriguez, would cooperate with The US, but we haven't heard from her, really.

更重要的是，我们还没有听到任何委内瑞拉军方领导人的声音。

And then more importantly, we have not heard from any Venezuelan military leaders.

那么，他们将会怎么做？

Now what will they do?

他们会放下武器吗？

Will they stand down?

军队会分裂吗？

Could the army splinter?

会不会有某种游击力量在军队内部为马杜罗及其支持者行动？

Could you have some sort of guerrilla force within the military working on behalf of Maduro and his supporters?

我们正处在一个非常紧张的局势中。

We're in a very tense situation.

这才刚刚开始。

It has just started.

我们不知道未来几天和几周委内瑞拉的安全局势会是什么样子。

We have no idea what the security situation will look like in Venezuela in the coming days and weeks.

是的。

Yeah.

都是非常好的问题。

All excellent questions.

格雷格，我简单问你一下。

Greg, just a quick one to you.

这问题不简单，但如果你能快速回答的话，是关于石油的。

This is not a quick question, but if you can answer it quickly, oil.

委内瑞拉已经破产了。

Venezuela is broke.

石油是它唯一重要的支柱产业。

Oil is its one big valuable industry.

如果美国介入，情况会怎样？

What does this look like to have The US going in?

这能帮助委内瑞拉重新站起来吗？

Does that help Venezuela get back on its feet?

嗯，这当然有可能，但这似乎是一个长期的过程。

Well, it certainly could, but it just seems like a long term process.

这些基础设施多年来已经严重退化了。

This this the infrastructure has just degraded over time.

这需要巨额投资。

It will need huge investments.

这是一件很难做到的事。

This is a difficult thing to do.

产量从二十五年前每天约300万桶下降到如今每天100万桶。

It's gone from about 3,000,000 barrels a day a quarter century ago to a million barrels a day.

所以，如果能恢复到那样的产量水平，是的，这个国家就会有一些资金。

So if it could restore that level of production, yeah, the country would have some money.

它会有一些收入。

It would have some income.

这并不一定能保证每个人都能繁荣，但它可能会带来巨大帮助。

It wouldn't necessarily guarantee prosperity for everybody, but it but it could be a big help.

但这不会一夜之间发生。

But that doesn't happen overnight.

这是一个需要多年才能完成的过程。

That is a multiyear process.

还有一点很重要，特朗普表示，在重建这些石油设施的过程中，可能会有美国军队驻扎。

And it's also important to note that Trump said there could be a US military presence as they rebuild these oil facilities.

那么，这需要多少兵力呢？

Well, how many troops will that require?

在接下来的几天和几周内，要完成这项任务，所需的兵力远不止一支小型三角洲部队。

That's it's gonna be a lot more than a small Delta Force unit to accomplish that in the coming coming days and weeks.

这是NPR五角大楼记者汤姆·布罗曼和国家安全记者格雷格·迈尔的报道。

That's NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman and National Security correspondent Greg Myrie.

刚才这段内容摘自NPR每周的国家安全播客《消息来源与方法》。

That was an excerpt of NPR's weekly national security podcast sources and methods.

如果你喜欢刚才听到的内容，欢迎在你常用的播客平台订阅我们的每周四更新节目。

Now if you liked what you heard, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts for our regular Thursday episodes.

要了解美国在委内瑞拉行动的最新进展，请收听《请思考》《消息来源与方法》节目，打开收音机，或访问npr.org。

To follow the latest on The US operation in Venezuela, tune in to consider this, sources and methods, turn on your radio, or go to npr.org.

本集节目由艾弗里·基特利和凯伦·萨莫拉制作。

This episode was produced by Avery Keatley and Karen Zamora.

本集由安德鲁·苏斯曼和科特尼·多宁剪辑。

It was edited by Andrew Sussman and Courtney Dorning.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·严根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是NPR的《Consider This》。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是玛丽·路易丝·凯利。

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.