为何部分美国公民被剔除选民名单

近几个月来，近5000万美国人的姓名被输入联邦数据系统，该系统目前正被用于筛查非公民选民。

In recent months, nearly 50,000,000 Americans have had their names run through a federal data system that's now being used to try to weed out noncitizen voters.

但当共和党州份用该系统核查选民资格时，系统却错误标记了安东尼·内尔等合法选民——这位达拉斯附近的居民本应享有投票权。

But as Republican states run their voter rules through it, the system is also flagging Americans who do have the right to vote, like Anthony Nell who lives near Dallas, Texas.

起初我很困惑，因为我持有护照。

At first, I was confused because I have a passport.

我已经投票十年了。

I've been voting for ten years.

为什么现在会出现这种情况？

Why is this happening now?

我第一反应是有人想通过调整选民登记名单来改变选民构成。

My first thought was something is going on in terms of wanting to adjust and change who is registered to vote.

内尔是德州州务卿办公室列出的2700名所谓'潜在非公民选民'之一。

Nell is one of 2,700 people the Texas secretary of state's office identified as, quote, potential noncitizens that are on Texas's voter rolls.

该州通过SAVE数据系统核查所有注册选民生成这份名单，这个数十年来仅用于核查移民福利资格的联邦查询工具如今被赋予了新用途。

The state made this list by running every registered voter through the SAVE data system, which for decades was a federal lookup tool only used to check if immigrants were eligible for benefits.

今年夏天早些时候，特朗普政府将其与社会保障管理局数据关联，现在声称SAVE是首个能查询几乎所有美国公民身份的工具。

Earlier this summer, the Trump administration linked it to Social Security Administration data and now claims that SAVE is the first tool that can look up the citizenship of almost every American.

NPR记者Jude Joffe Block和我数月来一直在报道SAVE系统。

NPR reporter Jude Joffe Block and I have been reporting on SAVE for months.

最近Jude一直在追踪像Nell这样的美国公民为何会被标记。

And recently, Jude has been tracking how American citizens like Nell are being flagged.

在Anthony Nell的案例中，他去查看邮箱时收到了这封信。

In Anthony Nell's case, you know, he goes to his mailbox.

他收到了一封信件。

He gets a letter.

丹顿县选民登记处致信通知您关于选民登记的重要信息。

The voter registrar for Denton County, I am writing to notify you of important information regarding your voter registration.

信件要求他证明自己的公民身份。

It's asking him to prove his citizenship.

我们收到德州州务卿办公室的信息显示您可能不是美国公民。

We have received information from the Texas secretary of state reflecting that you might not be a United States citizen.

在此之前他一直是个非常积极的选民，所以他对这件事感到相当震惊。

And he's been a really active voter up until this point, and so he's pretty shocked by this.

事实证明，SAVE系统无法识别所有已归化的人。

It turns out that the save system can't identify everyone who's been naturalized.

这些是像内尔这样的美国人，他们在童年时期随父母获得公民身份时成为公民。

These are Americans like Nell who gained citizenship as children when their parents became citizens.

所以他被标记了，并收到这份通知，告诉他如果想保留选民资格，就必须亲自出示护照来证明他的公民身份。

So he was flagged and got this notice telling him if he wanted to stay on the the voter rolls, he had to come and prove his citizenship by showing his passport.

他对在网上分享这类敏感文件感到不安，因此错过了证明选民资格的截止日期。

He was uncomfortable with sharing those sort of sensitive documents online, so he missed the deadline to prove his voter eligibility.

他最近登录系统查看自己的登记状态。

He recently logged on to check his registration status.

我没有显示出来。

I do not pop up.

我不再是登记选民了。

I am no longer registered to vote.

裘德表示这并不令人意外。

Jude says this shouldn't be a surprise.

这一直是个担忧——该计划可能导致合格公民被移出选民名册。

This has been a concern that this program would lead to eligible citizens being removed from the voter rolls.

这也引发了诸多疑问：特朗普政府是如何使用美国公民个人数据的？

It's also raising a lot of questions about how Americans' personal data is being used by the Trump administration.

想想这个。

Consider this.

特朗普政府正在以联邦政府前所未有的方式收集和整合数据。

The Trump administration is collecting and consolidating data in ways that have never been done before by the federal government.

这对美国公民产生了什么影响？

How is that impacting US citizens?

我是NPR的迈尔斯·帕克斯。

From NPR, I'm Miles Parks.

在这个节日季，送出一份回馈社会的礼物。

This holiday season, give a gift that gives back.

NPR商店回归，带来标志性LOGO T恤、Tiny Desk连帽衫，以及公共媒体粉丝的新潮周边。

The NPR shop is back with the iconic logo tee, the tiny desk hoodie, and fresh gear for fans of public media.

你的穿着将为你的聆听体验提供资金支持。

What you wear funds what you hear.

立即登录shopnpr.org选购有意义的礼物。

Shop meaningful gifts now at shopnpr.org.

2025年最佳歌曲和专辑有哪些？

What are the best songs and albums for 2025?

整个月，《All Songs Considered》节目将带您回顾过去一年最具记忆点的音乐与里程碑时刻，讲述这一年的故事。

All this month on all songs considered, we're looking back at the most memorable music and and milestone moments that tell the story of this past year.

想了解我们对2025年音乐趋势的解读，请在任何播客平台搜索《All Songs Considered》。

To hear our take on what noises 2025 made, search for All Songs Considered wherever you get podcasts.

NPR独家呈现。

Only from NPR.

跟进新闻动态就像一份24小时不间断的工作。

Keeping up with the news can feel like a twenty four hour job.

幸运的是，这正是我们的工作。

Luckily, it is our job.

在NPR新闻快报播客中，我们每小时精选最新最重要的新闻事件，并将其打包成五分钟的短节目，方便你在会议间隙或通勤路上轻松收听。

Every hour on the NPR News Now podcast, we take the latest, most important stories happening, and we package them into five minute episodes so you can easily squeeze them in between meetings and on your way to that thing.

现在就收听NPR新闻快报播客。

Listen to the NPR News Now podcast now.

这里是NPR的《细说此事》栏目。

It's consider this from NPR.

NPR记者裘德·约菲·布洛克一直在追踪报道SAVE系统的使用情况——这个联邦数据库现正被红州用于筛查选民名册中极少数非公民选民。

NPR reporter Jude Joffe Block has been reporting on the use of SAVE, a federal database that's now being deployed in red states to try to find the few noncitizens that are on voter rolls.

在本周的记者手记访谈中，我首先请她讲述了美国合格选民安东尼·内尔发现自己在德州郡选民名册上被除名时的反应。

When we sat down for this week's reporter's notebook, I began by asking her how one eligible American voter, Anthony Nell, responded to finding out that he was struck from his county voter rolls in Texas.

他当时显得惊讶、不安、困惑又沮丧。

He was kind of surprised, disturbed, confused, frustrated.

我想最让他意外的是，整个除名流程仅通过一封通知信就完成了。

I think he was also surprised that it it happened with just one letter out of outreach.

根据德克萨斯州的法律规定，如果某人未在三十天内回应这份通知，其选民登记将被取消。

And so under Texas code, you know, if, if somebody doesn't respond to this notice within thirty days, their registration is canceled.

他们并没有告知你三十天期限已到。

They didn't say your thirty days are up.

你不再是注册选民了。

You are no longer registered.

没有任何确认收件人是否收到了这封信。

There's no confirmation that someone received the letter.

所以很可能有成千上万的人根本不知道自己已被取消选民资格。

And so there are, you know, probably tons of you out there that have no idea that they're no longer registered to vote.

特朗普政府正鼓励各州使用这个SAVE系统，将所有选民信息都过一遍。

The Trump administration is encouraging states to use this save system and run all their voters through it.

但关于后续处理措施存在一些灰色地带。

But then there's some gray area about what happens next.

该系统会标记出潜在的非公民选民。

It flags potential noncitizens.

然后还有这个额外步骤，州政府需要进行额外的核实。

And then there's this extra step where the state is supposed to do additional verification.

而这个核实过程具体是怎样的，还不太明确。

And what that looks like is a little unclear.

所以在内尔的案例中，就是收到一封需要回复才能保留选民资格的信件。

So in in Nell's case, it was getting a single letter in the mail that he had to respond to to stay on the rolls.

这里面存在很多疑问。

You know, there's questions.

如果人们没收到那封信怎么办？

What if people don't get that letter?

人们是否获得了足够的正当程序来保留选民资格？

Are people getting enough due process to to be able to stay on the rolls?

这已经不是您第一次报道类似事件了，关于有人被移出选民登记名单或被政府错误标记的情况。

This is not the first time you've reported a story like this about either somebody being removed from voter registration list or having been incorrectly tagged by the government in one of these efforts.

在这些时刻，特别是当您与当事人交谈时，甚至可能是第一次告诉他们被列入了这些名单，那是什么样的感受？

What are those moments, like, I guess, as you're talking to people, and in some cases, I think, even telling them for the first time that they have been picked up on one of these lists?

我曾报道过弗吉尼亚、阿拉巴马和田纳西州的选民，他们处于收到通知的不同阶段，或者已被从选民名单中移除，但并不总是知道这种情况的发生。

So I've done some reporting on voters in Virginia, Alabama, and Tennessee who were at different phases of of getting a notice or or had been removed from voter rolls and and didn't always know that that had happened.

我联系了一些选民，告诉他们可能需要自己查一查。

I contacted some voters who I told them you might wanna look yourself up.

这是个有趣的对话场景——我询问对方'你是美国公民吗？'

And this is an interesting conversation to have with folks where, you know, I'm asking, you know, are you a US citizen?

他们通过Zoom或FaceTime展示护照以便我们核实。

And they're showing passport over Zoom or FaceTime so that we can verify it.

和他们讨论收到这些通知时的感受以及需要采取的措施。

And talking with them about what it feels like to to get these notices and and what they have to do about it.

在弗吉尼亚和阿拉巴马州的报道中，有些人是土生土长的美国公民，这些案例并不都与移民身份有关。

I mean, some of the folks in, you know, Virginia and in Alabama in that reporting, they were born in The US, and those weren't necessarily save related.

但他们完全被搞糊涂了。

But they were mystified.

我怎么会突然被标记为可疑对象？

How did I end up getting flagged for this?

这是人们普遍存在的一个大疑问。

And that was a big question people had.

我的意思是，这是否也是一个建立信任的过程？

I mean, is it also a process of building trust?

我是说，我不得不想象，如果一个陌生人突然打电话告诉你，你被列入了某个名单。

I mean, I have to imagine if some random person just calls you and tells you I mean, you're on a list.

这些互动通常如何进行？

How do those interactions go?

或者说，你如何确保让对方明白你是合法的，你不是要给人找麻烦，或者说不清楚...

Or how do you go about the process of, you know, making it clear that you're legit or that that you're not, you know, trying to get anybody in trouble or, like, don't know.

你有没有更广泛地思考过该如何在这种情境下接触这些人？

Do you ever think about even how to approach people in this situation more broadly?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个非常敏感的话题，因为你本质上是在和人们讨论他们不知道自己的信息如何被使用的情况，他们可能对这些举措非常警惕，甚至觉得自己的隐私受到了侵犯。

It's a such a sensitive topic because you're basically talking to people about something where they don't know how their information has been used and the and might be very wary about these efforts and feel in some ways like their privacy is invaded.

也许他们最不想做的就是和一个陌生人谈论这件事。

And maybe the last thing they wanna do is talk to a stranger about about that very thing.

对吧？

Right?

然后还要在Zoom或FaceTime上向这个陌生人展示敏感文件。

And then show a sensitive document to that stranger, over Zoom or FaceTime.

所以这些都是非常敏感的对话。

So these are really sensitive conversations.

这涉及到建立信任。

It involves building trust.

因为我已经多次报道过这个问题，做过各种关于在公民身份审查中被标记的人的故事，涉及多个州的选民名册。

Because I have reported on this now several times, you know, done a a variety of stories about people who've been flagged in citizenship reviews, for voter rolls in in various states.

我可以把这些报道发给人们，让他们了解我们正在做的工作，以及我们试图讲述他们故事的目标。

I'm able to send people those stories so they can kind of understand what we're working on and and what our goals are with trying to tell their story.

所以对他们来说，要列出这些潜在非公民的名单，这是联邦政府提供给各州的，他们使用这个SAVE系统。

So for them to come up with this list of names of potential noncitizens, this is from the federal government giving this to the state, they use this save system.

这个系统你我今年都报道过很多次，因为特朗普政府投入了大量资源和精力来彻底改革它。

This is a system that you and I have reported a lot on this year because the Trump administration has put a lot of resources and energy into overhauling it.

但你能向人们具体解释一下这个系统是什么，以及特朗普政府做了哪些改变吗？

But can you explain for people exactly what it is and what the Trump administration has changed?

是的。

Yeah.

这个系统已经使用了超过四十年了。

So it's been in use for, you know, over forty years at this point.

这是一个联邦数据系统，会与国土安全部及各类移民相关系统对接，其最初用途是判断外国出生者或国内移民是否有资格享受某些福利。

It's a federal data system that pings Department of Homeland Security and various immigration related systems, and its original use was to be able to figure out if foreign born people, if immigrants in the country were eligible for certain benefits.

过去七个月里，该系统经历了重大改造。

Now it went through a huge makeover in the last seven months.

特朗普政府对其进行了彻底改革，他们将系统与社会安全局数据对接，理论上现在可以通过社保号码查询任何人并识别其是否为美国公民。

The the Trump administration has really changed it because what they've done is they've linked it to Social Security Administration data, and they've made it so that it supposedly can look up anyone with a social security number and identify whether they are a US citizen or not.

因此这本质上试图成为一个公民身份查询工具，这是我们前所未有、也从未整合过此类数据的系统。

And so it's it's really essentially trying to be a citizenship lookup tool, which we've never had before and and never had this kind of data consolidated.

他们最近还将其与美国护照信息关联，下一步计划是将驾照数据也纳入该系统。

They've recently linked it to, have US passport information as well as and then the plan next is to add driver's license data to this as well.

目前已有数百万人被纳入这一系统。

So millions of people have been run through this this system at this point.

现在已有多个州在使用它。

A number of states are using it now.

我们是否了解其结果，或者这是否为特朗普关于非公民投票的指控提供了任何证据？

Do we have any sense of what the results say or if this does provide any evidence for Trump's claims about noncitizen voting?

是的。

Yeah.

这确实很有意思，因为到目前为止，那些已将全部选民名单通过SAVE系统核查并公开结果的州，所发现的涉嫌非公民投票的人数其实非常少。

Well, this is really interesting because so far, the states that have run their entire voter rolls through SAVE and have made those results public, the number of suspected noncitizens who've cast ballots are are really pretty low.

以路易斯安那州为例，他们核查了近300万选民，仅发现79人可能是自1980年代以来投票的非公民。

So Louisiana, for example, ran almost 3,000,000 voters through and identified 79 people that they think are noncitizens who cast ballots going back to the nineteen eighties.

这只占其注册选民的极小比例。

So this is a really tiny percentage of their registered voters.

但我认为这并不意味着这种说法会消失。

But I don't think that means that this narrative is going anywhere.

我的意思是，就在上周，我们确实看到负责民权事务的助理司法部长哈米特·狄龙一直在频繁谈论这个问题。

I mean, we've we've seen just actually in the last week, assistant attorney general for civil rights, Harmit Dillon, has been talking about this issue a lot.

我认为如果把范围扩大到全国，可能会达到六位数的规模。

I think it could be a six figure number, when you spread out over the whole country.

甚至可能比那还要高。

Could be even higher than that.

她最近上了Newsmax电视台，公布了她猜测的美国非公民选民数量。

She recently went on Newsmax and put out a a number of what she guessed the number of noncitizens who voted in The US is.

当你想到2020年大选及其他全国性选举的微弱差距时，几百票的差异完全可能改变全国选举的结果。

And when you think about the margin in the twenty twenty election and some other elections nationally, a few 100 votes here or there could absolutely turn the outcome of a national election.

这就引出了一个关键问题：讨论这个话题时，人们常抛出各种数字，可能存在潜在非公民选民，这与已确认的非公民选民是不同的概念。

And that kind of brings up an issue, which is that when talking about this, there's numbers that get thrown out, and there could be potential noncitizens, which are different than confirmed noncitizens.

还存在已登记投票但未实际投票的非公民选民，这与实际投票的非公民选民也是不同的情况。

And there could be noncitizens who are registered to vote, which is different than noncitizens who cast a ballot.

所以经常讨论这个问题会导致很多混淆。

So often, even talking about this issue can lead to a lot of confusion.

这是NPR的Jude Joffe Block。

That's NPR's Jude Joffe Block.

非常感谢你接受我们的采访，Jude。

Thanks so much for talking with us, Jude.

谢谢你，Miles。

Thank you, Miles.

本期节目由莉娜·穆罕默德制作。

This episode was produced by Lina Muhammad.

由布雷特·尼利、本·斯威兹和亚当·雷尼编辑。

It was edited by Brett Neely, Ben Swayze, and Adam Rainey.

我们的执行制作人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》栏目。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是迈尔斯·帕克斯。

I'm Miles Parks.

抽时间了解新闻很重要。

Making time for the news is important.

但当你需要休息时，我们有NPR音乐播客《All Songs Considered》为你解忧。

But when you need a break, we've got you covered on All Songs Considered, NPR's music podcast.

把它想象成一个音乐发现节目，一个与朋友共度的应得假期，当然，还有一些深刻的音乐见解。

Think of it like a music discovery show, a well deserved escape with friends, and, yeah, some serious music insight.

我得说实话。

I'm a keep it real.

我完全不知道

I have no idea what

这个故事讲的是什么。

the story is about.

每周二，无论你在哪里收听播客，都能收听到《All Songs Considered》的新节目。

Here are new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts.

你关心世界上正在发生的事。

You care about what's happening in the world.

通过NPR的《世界现状》播客保持信息畅通。

Stay informed with NPR's State of the World podcast.

只需几分钟，我们带你了解全球各地的故事。

In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe.

你可能会听到世界冲突的最新进展，或是了解全球事件如何影响你咖啡的价格。

You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean for the price of your coffee.

收听NPR的《世界现状》播客。

Listen to the state of the world podcast from NPR.

NPR播客《特朗普任期》为你提供关于特朗普政府重大新闻的当日更新。

NPR's podcast Trump's terms is your source for same day updates on big news about the Trump administration.

简短集中的单集节目，每次聚焦一个主题，时长约五分钟。

Short, focused episodes, one topic at a time, about five minutes or so.

我们汇集了NPR所有报道领域的资讯，确保你始终获取最重要、最紧迫的新闻故事。

We carry out reporting from across all of NPR's coverage, so you are always getting the biggest, most urgent stories.

Listen to Trump's terms on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Trump's terms on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.