谁能在中年迎来蜕变？

嘿，我是Melody。轮到我向大家介绍我们正在制作的节目内容，并希望能激励大家提交问题。首先是关于棒球文化的节目。Anne说我必须共同主持这一期，我是皇家队的球迷，属于美国联盟。我们的嘉宾是大都会队的球迷，属于国家联盟。

Hey, it's Melody. It's my turn to tell you about the episodes we're working on and to hopefully inspire you to submit your questions. First up, an episode about baseball culture. Anne says that I have to co host this one, and I am a Royals fan, which is the American League. Our guest is a Mets fan, National League.

所以我觉得我们能涵盖所有方面。我真的很兴奋，所以给我们提供些好话题吧。我们还在制作一期关于不同社交方式及其功能的节目。另外还有一期是与了不起的播客《Articles of Interest》的Avery Truffelman合作的，我们将讨论户外服装和运动服饰。

So I think we can cover all the bases. I'm really excited, so give us some good stuff to talk about. We are also working on an episode about different ways of hanging out and the different functions that those hangouts serve. Another one in the pipeline is with Avery Truffelman of the incredible podcast articles of interest. We're gonna talk about outdoor clothing and athletic wear.

我们还有关于千禧一代爱好热情的节目，以及关于如何让社会真正对家庭友好的节目。和往常一样，我们正在征集大家对未来节目的想法和'问Anne任何事'的问题。你可以通过同一个Google表单提交所有内容，网址是tinyurl.com/culturestudypot。好的，谢谢。祝大家收听愉快。

We've got an episode on millennial hobby energy and another on what would make a society actually family friendly. And as always, we are taking your ideas for future episodes and your questions for Ask Anne Anything. You can submit everything at the same Google form, which is at tinyurl.com/culturestudypot. Okay, thank you. Enjoy today's show.

这里是文化研究播客，我是Anne Helen Peterson。

This is the culture study podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

我是Jen Hatmaker。很高兴今天能加入你们。我刚出版了一本新书叫《Awake, a Memoir》，我住在德克萨斯州的奥斯汀。非常荣幸能参与今天的节目。谢谢邀请。

I'm Jen Hatmaker. Delighted to be joining you today. I've written a new book that just came out called Awake, a Memoir, and I live down here in Austin, Texas. And thrilled to be a part of this today. Thanks for having me.

只想说我非常兴奋今天能请到你。我关注你的故事很久了。2016年大选前的那个周六，我还报道过你的女性会议。

Just wanna say I'm so excited to have you today. I've been following your story for a long time. I I reported from one of your women's conferences this Saturday before the two thousand sixteen election.

我记得这件事。

I remember this.

我刚才重读了那篇文章，我当时就想，哇，里面内容这么丰富吗？

I was just rereading that piece, and I was like, wow, is there so much in there?

那真是疯狂的一周。我前一周刚把自己的事业搞砸了。是啊，那一周简直疯了。然后你就说，嘿，我要来报道这件事。

That was a crazy time. I had just like torpedoed my career the week before. Yeah. That week was bonkers. And then you're like, hey, I'm gonna come and cover it.

我们都在想，天啊。真是个奇怪的时期。那一周真的很诡异。

We're all like, oh god. It's a weird time. It's a really weird week.

不。那一周确实很诡异，但我觉得也很有意思，因为当时我在人群中跟这些女性交谈，她们正在试图弄清楚——选举还没开始——但她们在思考：我与政治的关系是什么？

No. And it was a weird week, but also I think like a a really interesting because I was, you know, in the crowd talking to these women who are trying to figure out and like the election hadn't happened yet, but like they're trying to figure out what is my relationship to politics?

完全同意。

Like Totally.

我以前也想过这个问题，但可能没那么明确，比如取决于她们去的是哪种教堂，牧师是否在讲坛上宣讲政治话题，天啊。真是个非常有趣的时刻。然后有些人说，是啊，我讨厌这家伙。他反对我的一切立场，我很想——今天能跟每个我采访过的人再聊聊。

I've kind of thought about this before, but maybe not as explicitly, like depending on what kind of church they went to and whether their pastor was preaching politics from the pulpit, like Boy. Just a really interesting moment. And then some people were like, yeah, I hate this guy. Like, he's against everything I stand for, and I would love to, like, each person that I interviewed to talk to them today.

那真是文化上一个有趣的转折点。是啊。刚从奥巴马政府的八年走出来。文化上发生了如此剧烈的摇摆。而我自己个人生活也正好在同一时间经历了巨大动荡，我是说，完全同步。

That was such an interesting, like, pivot in culture. Having Yeah. Come off eight years of the Obama administration. It was just such a hard swing culturally. And then I was having such a hard swing personally at the exact same time, I mean, simultaneous.

总而言之，你我在这十年里都走了很长的路。

And so all that to say, you and I have come a long ways in ten years.

我知道。我们都成了优秀的播客主播。

I know. We've become good podcasters.

没错。

That's right.

我的意思是，我知道，我们把这期节目定位为关于中年重塑的更大主题。你在新回忆录中称之为中年成长故事，我很喜欢这个说法。那么这对你来说意味着什么？

I mean and I know, you know, like, we're framing this as a larger episode about midlife reinvention. And you described in your new memoir as a coming of middle age story, which I love. So tell me what that means to you.

《觉醒》有点像两个故事。我把自己的个人小故事——也就是26年婚姻的终结，以及随之而来的痛苦、重组和最终的重塑——嵌套在一个更宏大的故事里。虽然离婚也很普遍，但这个宏大故事更具普遍性。它实际上是对父权制、宗教教条、纯洁文化、身体羞耻和性别限制毫不留情的审视。这些都是构建那座纸牌屋的砖块。

Awake is kind of like two stories. I nestled my small personal individual story, which was kind of the loss of my twenty six year marriage and then like the subsequent suffering and reordering and ultimately reinvention inside a larger story, which is far more ubiquitous, even though so is divorce. But inside the the system, the systems really in which I built that house of cards. It's a it's a pretty unsparing look at patriarchy and religious dogma and purity culture and body shame and gender limitations. And those were all the bricks that built the house.

因此我必须深入审视这些因素，并得出结论：这座房子的倒塌其实并不令人意外。作为以各种方式领导着一个大型女性社群的人——不管当今时代的领导力是什么样子——我经历了很多这样的故事。这是中年时期非常普遍的经历。你可以用其他几种损失或变化来替换，但故事主线保持不变：我们很多人都在经历类似的过程。就我而言是失去婚姻，但在中年时期也可能是：我的身体不像预期那样运转了，我的职业生涯没有达到预期，或者我感到不满足。

And so I had to examine those pretty deeply and come to the conclusion that it probably wasn't actually such a shock that the house crumbled. And so a lot of this I experienced, you know, as a person who leads a large community of women, one way or another, whatever leadership looks like in these day in this day and age, but that is a really common story in midlife. And you can kind of swap out the loss or the change with a handful of things. But the story arc remains like a lot of us are going through, in my case, like the loss of a marriage, but in midlife, it's also, hey, my body is not behaving like I expected it to. My career is not where I thought it was going to be or I'm unfulfilled.

我这个年龄段的人正在应对各种变化：我们的育儿方式发生了转变，孩子们正成长为年轻成年人，这意味着什么？我们的成人友谊又如何？中年时期就有这么一大堆事情，我们大多数人——无论是全部还是部分——都会说：我也是这样。

My age group is navigating what it, how do we, our parenting has shifted. Our kids are launching their young adults. What does that look like? What about our adult friendships? There's just this, there's this whole stack of things in midlife that most of us, whether all of them or some of them are going, say, that's me too.

是的，我完全理解你的感受。

That's I'm right there with you.

你知道，我们在通讯和播客中称之为“门户”。在门户的尽头，往往会在某种程度上迸发出创造性能量，我觉得你现在就处于那个阶段。但同时，就像有两个门户，就像在门户之中。感觉你被扼住了喉咙。一切都在同时发生，你试图弄清楚，为什么我感到如此强烈的愤怒？是因为我再也无法掌控你提到的那些体系了吗？

You know, we on the newsletter and the podcast, we call it the portal And how at the end of the portal, there is often a burst of creative energy in some way, and I feel like you're in that space right now. But then there's also, like, two portal, like, in the portal. It's like you're being throttled. Like, everything is happening all at once, and you're trying to ascertain, like, why do I feel this incredible amount of rage? Is it because I can no longer master the systems that you're referring to?

就像，你知道，当你三十多岁时，你会觉得，我已经完全掌握了。有些人可能会觉得自己拥有了那种掌控力。但当你不再是其中的权力代理人时，你该如何应对？但我也觉得，我感到所有这些愤怒是因为这是围绝经期和更年期的自然副产品。就像，这是我身体正在

Like, you know, when you're in your thirties, you're like, I got this down to stomach. Like, some people can feel like they have that mastery. But then when you no longer are, like, an agent of power within this, How do you grapple with that? But then I think it's also, like, I feel all this rage because that is a natural byproduct of perimenopause and menopause. Like, this is something that my body is

做的事情。就像愤怒工厂，就像四处走动，一个内部加热器随时准备爆发。现在真是个奇怪的时候，不是吗？

doing. Like, rage factories, like, walking around in, an internal heater just prepared to unleash. Now it is such a weird time, isn't it?

是的。不。而且我认为，你知道，这也是书中叙述的一部分，伴随着这种转变，就像一个难以忍受的大锅，但另一边也有生活。对吧？就像有重塑

Yeah. No. And I think, like, you know, and this is part of the the narrative of the book is, like, with this transformation, like, it's a a cauldron that is, like, really difficult to just hang out in there, but then there is also life on the other side. Right? Like, there is reinvention

确实有。

There is.

而且对此感到兴奋。但我也喜欢，这就是我们这期节目要讨论的，就像，有复杂性。我有机会进入门户。想想我们祖父母那一代。我相信很多那些女性都想要一个门户。

And there is, like, excitement about that. But I also like, and this is what we're gonna talk about throughout this episode is, like, like, there are complications. My has the opportunity to portal. Like, think about our grandparents' generation. Like, I'm sure a lot of those women wanted a portal.

他们当时完全是只能接受现状。他们的选择非常有限，而且整个体系和文化都没有为他们提供退出的途径。

They were just were just totally They got they had to live with what they had. They their options were so few and the systems and the culture were not set up with exit ramps

是的。

Yeah.

在那个历史阶段确实如此。所以你说得对。我们现在确实有更多触手可及的选择。但即便如此——安妮，你今年多大了？

In that stage of history. And so you are right. Like, we have more options at our fingertips. But even then, even even how old are you, Anne?

我44岁。

I'm 44.

好的。你比我年轻些，但我们都处于这个中年阶段。确实我们有更多选择，但同时也面临着各种复杂情况。所以觉醒从来不是个整洁的故事，我们每个人的故事其实都是如此。

Okay. Yeah. So you're younger than me, but we're kind of you're just you're south of me enough, but you're up here where this middle part kind of exists. And yep, we we certainly have more options, but we also still have complications. So awake is not a tidy story and really none of ours are.

所以我并不相信那种关于中年失去与重生的完美版本——它根本不整洁。这并不意味着我们不能到达新的、更好的地方。但是从A点到B点的过程可能会非常坎坷。

So I don't I don't I don't buy that, like, real clean version of of a midlife loss and reinvention is it's just not clean. It doesn't mean we don't get there to somewhere new and somewhere better. But, boy, it could be a real clunky ride from a to b.

而且有时候当你需要把它叙述成故事时，确实会变得更戏剧化——这是第一幕，那是第二幕，但其中总是充满复杂因素。说到这个，你的离婚事实虽然众所周知，但你和前夫长期保持了细节的隐私。是什么让你觉得现在准备好分享这些了呢？

And, like, sometimes when you have to narrativize it, yeah, it becomes more, like, bold. This happened in act a. This happened in act b, but there's always complications. So on that along those lines, like, the fact of your divorce was very public, but you and your ex husband kept the details private for a long time. What made you feel like you were ready to share it now?

是的。我有一段时间就像是销声匿迹了。在那次失去之后的一段时间里，创伤和悲伤笼罩了一切。我没有其他状态可言。那显然不是透露细节的合适时机。

Yeah. I just kind of went underground for a while. There was just a portion of time right after that loss where trauma and grief encompassed everything. I had no other gear. And that certainly was not the time to disclose the details.

我们有五个孩子，当时还有两个在读高中。我是说，他们并非全都独立了，有几个还在我称之为'家庭急诊室'的状态中进进出出——离开又回来。所以我仍在处理孩子们的痛苦，我们试图找到新的常态，而我则在努力重建独立生活，毕竟我19岁结婚后从未真正独自生活过。是的，所以有那么一个阶段，每一分多余的精力都投入到了我们真实的日常生活、我们真实的家庭中。

We have five kids and at the time I still had two in high school. I mean, weren't all lunched and a couple of them were in and out of triage as I like to call this home once they leave and come back. So I was still parenting my kids' pain and we were trying to find a new normal and I was trying to rebuild an independent life having literally never lived one when I got married when I 19 years old. Right. And so there was just a season in which every ounce of spare energy went to just our real life, our real family here on the ground.

另外，感谢上帝我没有在三年前写这本书。我不知道当时我会说些什么。

Also, thank God I didn't write this three years ago. I don't know what I would have said.

哦，确实。

Oh, right.

在我之前工作、担任治疗师并真正康复，甚至正视自己的模式、自己的共谋，比如我对这种衰退的自身贡献之前，我本可以讲一个更简洁的恶棍与受害者的故事，但那样远非事实。是的。所以五年后的现在，经历了如此多的疗愈，以及我所希望的自我承担，我希望我在书中展现出一定程度的自我觉察。现在似乎是谈论这件事的时候了。

Before I had worked before I had been therapist and really recovered and even had a a reckoning with my own patterns, my own complicity, like my own contribution to this sort of decline. It would have been a, tidier villain and victim story, but way less true. Yeah. So now five years later, experienced so much healing and what I hope is ownership, I hope I have a degree of of self awareness that comes through in the book. This felt like the time to talk about it.

老实说，作为一名作家，一名非虚构作家，坐在创作桌前，深知写作是我在世上的工作，是我的职责，我没有其他可信或可行的方式去写除了过去五年之外的任何事。是的，我还能做什么呢？

To be honest with you as a writer, as a nonfiction writer, pulling up my chair to the table of creativity, knowing that writing is what I do in the world, that is my work, there was no credible or feasible way for me to write about anything other than the last five years. Yes. What am I gonna do?

对。对。

Right. Right.

没错。就像这样，嘿，各位。上次见到你们时，情况还有些不同。总之，我们来谈谈这边左外野的这件事。我学到了很多，我觉得这是我的责任，因为这是我在这个世界上的工作，说实话也是我的荣幸，能够通过书写

Right. Be like, hey, guys. Last time I saw you, things were a little different. Anyway, let's talk about this thing over here in left field. And I learned a lot and I feel like it was my responsibility because this is my work in the world and kind of my honor to be honest, to write through

是的。

Yeah.

我的经历，并将其分享给我的社群。

My experience and offer it to my community.

你在《纽约时报》的采访中说了一些话，顺便说一句，那采访非常精彩，我们会在节目说明中附上链接。但你说，你总是认为谨慎和隐私之间存在区别。所以，有些事情你觉得，是的，我可以坦诚面对这些，作为一名领导者我想要诚实。但也有一些事情是，比如，我也有权保留隐私。

You said something in your interview with The New York Times, is phenomenal, by the way, we'll link it in the show notes. But you said, like, that you always think of a difference between discretion and privacy. So, like, there are some things that you feel that, yes, I can be honest about these things, I want to be honest as a leader. But then there are some things that are, like, I it's okay for me to have privacy too.

没错。而且听着，没人会把隐私拱手送给你。每个人都想要每一个乱七八糟的细节。很抱歉，给未来的读者们剧透一下。那些细节也没有全部写在书里。

That's right. And listen, nobody will hand it to you. Everybody wanted every sorted detail. And I'm sorry, spoiler alert for future readers. Those are not all included in the book either.

有太多事情我留在了防火墙之后，因为谨慎，因为隐私，因为那些细节既无助于讲述故事，也不会改变故事。因为那是我孩子永远的另一位家长，而这是我们的真实生活。就像，我们在这里过着真实的日常生活，那不是《纽约时报》上的这种公开事务。我的意思是，那（公开的）才是异常。我们真实的日常生活在这里，它值得被呵护，我有权享有隐私和谨慎处理的权利。

There is so much that I have kept behind the firewall because discretion, because privacy, because those details do not serve the story nor do they change it. Because that is my kid's other parent forever, And this is our real life. Like, we have a real life that we live here, that is not this public thing in the New York Times. I mean, that that is the anomaly. My our real life is over here, and it deserves care, and I have the right to privacy and discretion.

所以，尽管我现在写到了我的离婚，但直到此刻之前，我甚至从未说过存在背叛。我们也从未透露过任何关于发生了什么的细节，而现在我已经相当详细地阐述了一些。即便如此，这仍然是高度谨慎的。我写作时的北极星——因为在整个写作过程中，我一直在想我不能这样做。我不能说这个。

And so even though I have now written about my divorce, when up until this moment in time, I'd never even said there was betrayal. And we never said one detail about what had happened, and now I've done quite a bit of flushing out of it. Even then, it is still highly discreet. And my North Star when I was writing it the because whole time I was writing it, the entire time I kept thinking I can't do this. I can't say this.

我不能承认这个。我不能包含这个。我不能我不能相信我竟然会这样暴露自己。我在整个过程的每个节点，都觉得自己会把项目搞砸。但我做决定时一直坚守的北极星问题是：我该说什么？

I can't admit this. I can't include this. I can't I can't believe I'm gonna expose myself like this. I I at all points along the way, I thought I was going to capsize the project. But the North Star that I hung on to the whole time when I was deciding, what do I say?

我该包含什么？我该排除什么？问题是，五年后我会为此感到骄傲吗？我会为整本书感到骄傲吗？我会为这一段感到骄傲吗？

What do I include? What do I exclude? Was, will I be proud of this in five years? Will I be proud of this whole book? Will I be proud of this paragraph?

我会为这句话感到骄傲吗？我会为这个词感到骄傲吗？我可以告诉你，正是这个问题让删除键始终保持在工作状态。

Will I be proud of this sentence? Will I be proud of this word? And I will tell you that that question kept that delete button in working order.

说得好。你知道，有时候你需要先写出句子，然后再删除它。

Great. You know, sometimes you need to write the sentence and then delete the sentence.

我把它写下来了。

I put it down.

你必须先写

You have to write

出来。我没有自我审查。我告诉自己，你有权在第一稿中写下所有内容。绝对是一切。是的。这很有帮助也很有用。

it first. I didn't self edit. I told myself, you have permission to write everything into the first draft. Absolutely everything Yeah. Which was helpful and useful.

然后我们就说，好吧。让我们回过头来

And then we're like, alright. Let's come back through this and

是的。

Yeah.

然后决定什么能通过五年自豪感的考验。

And decide what what meets the five year pride test.

所以对于不太熟悉您工作的听众来说，很难夸大您在福音派女性圈子中是多么重要的人物。而且，您现在常说，您曾经是福音派女性亚文化的宠儿，而现在却成了问题儿童或一个问题儿童。

So for listeners who aren't as familiar with your work, like, it's hard to overstate how important of a figure you were within evangelical women's circles. And, you know, one thing that you say now is that you used to be the darling of evangelical women's subculture, and now you are the problem child or a problem child.

是的。

Yeah.

您能否为不熟悉的听众简单介绍一下您的这种转变？

Can you, for listeners who aren't familiar, run us through a little bit of this reinvention?

这又要追溯到你我初次见面的时候。

Again, this goes back to when you and I first met.

是的。

Yeah.

我是通过福音派女性亚文化获得我的报应的，这是真实存在的。

I had my my comeuppets through evangelical women's subculture, which is a thing.

因为你说同性恋者也是人。对吧？就像，他们也是人。就像，上帝爱他们。

Because you said that gay people are people. Right? That, like, they are people. Like, God loves them.

没错。我我的意思是，当你这么说的时候，这似乎很直白明显。对吧？对。对。

That's right. I I mean, when you say it like that, it seems pretty plain and obvious. Right? Right. Right.

但在2015年，你知道，在那个世界里，而且说得更精确一点，我是在南方浸信会长大的，那是正确枝干上的正确分枝上的正确小枝。所以对于任何同性恋相关的事情，神学立场都非常明确，那就是不行。那就是神学。不行。不行。

But in in 2015, you know, in the in that world and and to put a real fine point on it, I came up Southern Baptist, which is the right the right twig of the right branch of the right limb. And so there was very unambiguous theology around same sex anything, which was no. That was the theology. No. No.

你不能是那样。你不能成为那样。你不能被接纳。但如果你确实是那样，如果我们错了，那你唯一的道路就是独身。那是非常黯淡的，非常非常黯淡，而且极具破坏性，更不用说这种神学造成并仍在造成的死亡之痛有多深。

You you aren't that. You don't get to be that. You don't get to be included. If if you are that though, if we're wrong, then your only path is celibacy. It was bleak, very, very bleak and so highly destructive, we'll never mind the depths of the pain that not just the pain of the death that that theology created and still creates.

转化疗法的代价是我们永远无法为其标价，它太高了。然后仅仅是尊严、人格和归属感的丧失就是灾难性的。所以当时用我的眼睛和耳朵，我目睹这一切发生，心想，那我一生都被灌输的这种神学，甚至从未被坦诚讨论过。这甚至不是一个讨论点。就像是，这就是这样，继续讨论更复杂的事情吧。

The the cost of conversion therapy is that we'll never get to put a price tag on it, it is so high. And then just the loss of dignity and personhood and belonging is it is catastrophic. And so just with my eyes and my ears back then, I was watching all this unfold going, then this theology that I've been handed my whole life, which was never even honestly discussed. This wasn't even a talking point. It was just like, this is what this is moving on to more complicated things.

但我现在更加关注了，因为我对这个世界有了更清晰的视野。我年纪大了，更明智了，更成熟了。我的经验拓宽了，我的视角也开阔了——但结果与神学理论不符。如果神学说我们应当这样寻找生命的意义，人们应当这样繁荣昌盛，那为什么他们都在自杀？

But I'm paying attention cause I now have much greater visibility into the world. I'm older, I'm wiser, I'm more mature. My experience has widened out. My perspective has widened out going, the results don't match the theology. If the theology says this is how we're going to find life here, this is this is how people are going to flourish, then why are they all killing themselves?

为什么他们的家庭都破碎了？为什么青少年无家可归？因为他们的父母把他们赶出家门，只因为他们是同性恋。总之，我有点跑题了，但这种认知失调和不协调变得太严重了。所以如你提到的，在2016年大选前一周，我接受了RNS的采访，说我改变了对这个问题的看法。

Why are their families all broken? Why are they why are teenagers homeless? Because their mom and dad kicked them out because they're gay. So anyway, I'm getting in the weeds here, but the cognitive dissonance and the misalignment became too much. And so as you mentioned, in 2016, a week before the election, I gave an interview to RNS and said, I changed my mind on this.

基本上，就像你说得那么简洁，我就像是：好吧，支持同性恋，你知道，就像，做你自己。我们爱你。你很重要。你有价值。你就是同性恋者。

And I essentially, as you put it so succinctly, I'm like, okay, yay for gay, you know, like, be gay. We love you. You matter. You count. You are gay.

坦白说，这并不算什么惊天动地的事，但我就这样表态了：我在各个层面都肯定同性恋者。而这终结了我的职业生涯。我是说，真的终结了。实际上结束了我的职业生涯。然后那就是我从宠儿变成问题人物的堕落过程。

This is not that monumental, frankly, but I was like, I affirm gay people like at every level. And that ended my career. I mean, it really did. I it effectively ended my career. And then I that was my decent from darling to problem child.

嗯，如果人们不熟悉福音派出版业的运作方式，就像，你的出版商就像是，我们对此表示否认。

Well, and if people aren't familiar with, like, how this works within, like, the the evangelical, like, publishing industry, like, they're like, your publisher was like, we disavow this.

第二天。他们就否认了。发了新闻稿。当然，各地书店都把我的书从架上撤下来了。是的。

The next day. Disavowed. Press release. They pulled off of course, bookstores everywhere pulled my books off their shelves. Yeah.

但我的出版商让我最成功的书绝版了，而那本是当时还在销售的，就像是我那时的财务引擎。所以，我是说，这非常非常具有惩罚性。然后当然，社交圈也跟进了。所以简直就是焦土政策。说实话，就是焦土政策。

But my publisher put my most successful book out of print and it was the one still selling it was like my financial engine at the time. And so I mean, it's very, very punitive. And, and then of course the social community followed suit. And so it was just, it was just scorched earth. It was honestly scorched earth.

那确实是一段非常低谷的时期，并不是因为我后悔自己的决定。我唯一的遗憾是没有更早到达那里。那是我唯一的遗憾。但那是一段充满失落和孤独的时光，成为如此长期持续负面关注的焦点是有害的。我的意思是，我记得住在美国其他地方的朋友们发短信给我说，珍，你就像是我们周日布道的主题，而且不是以好的方式。

It was a really low time actually, not because I regretted my decision. The only regret I had is that I didn't get there sooner. That was my only regret. But it was a really lonely time of loss and to be the center point of that much long term sustained negative attention was harmful. I mean, can just remember people, friends of mine that live elsewhere in The United States texting me going, Jen, you are the subject of like our Sunday sermon and not in a good way.

这种情况发生了太多次，我甚至无法告诉你，比如在大学校园里，每一个媒体 outlet 你知道。所以那是一段非常令人难以承受的时期。

That happened so many times I couldn't even tell you like on college campuses, every every media outlet you know. So it was very overwhelming time.

嗯，而且事后看来，对吧，这其实与你无关。

Well, and in hindsight, right, it it's not about you.

确实无关。

It's not.

反弹必须如此强烈，才能强调，实际上这是一个每天都在受到挑战的、极其脆弱的神学观点。

The backlash had to be that strong in order to underline, like, what was actually what is actually an incredibly vulnerable point of theology that is being challenged every day.

没错。

That's right.

对吧？所以，显然，它看似是关于你的，但实际上并不是

Right? And so it it's not like it obviously, it was about you, but it wasn't

没错。而且，那种行为是用来强化福音派内部那个特定的严格界限。换句话说，大家都注意了。如果你越界了，这就是你的下场。如果你越界了，我们就会以这种方式、这种程度来打压你。

about That's right. Also, that behavior is used to reinforce that particular hard boundary inside evangelicalism. So in other words, everybody pay attention. That's gonna be you if you step out. If you step out, we will level you down in this way, in this manner, and to this degree.

所以这非常有效。我的意思是，多么强大的威慑力啊。谁会想要那样呢？

And so it's very effective. I mean, what a what a deterrent. I mean, who wants that?

对，是的。天哪。而且这也为后来发生的很多事情埋下了伏笔。所以我觉得特别有趣的是，你当时正在重塑你的信仰和信念体系。

Right. Yeah. God. And also that teed up a lot of things that were to come. So like, this is what I think is so interesting is you were reinventing your faith and your belief system.

就像这一切正在发生。在你婚姻解体之前，这些事情就已经在个人层面上发生了。

Like this was happening. That stuff was happening personally before the dissolution of your marriage.

百分之百正确。

A 100%.

是的，是的。所以这并不是说，哦，我经历了一个创伤时刻，然后一切都改变了。对吧？就像是，已经改变了。

Yeah. Yeah. So it's not like, oh, I had a moment of trauma, and then everything changed. Right? Like, was changed.

没错。自2015年以来，我在稳定性方面，没有哪一年是和前一年完全一样的。所以我

That's right. I have had I've not had one year exactly like the year before it terms of stability since 2015. So I

我想很多人会说中年时期就是这样，对吧，好像没什么

think a lot of people would say that in middle age right like there's not

我同意。是的，我同意。这有点像我之前说的，选择一个类别或全部选择。显然，生活想选择所有类别。就像，让我们来谈谈各个阶层、各个地方的人。

I agree. Yeah, I agree. That's kind of what I was saying earlier like pick a category or all of them. I apparently, life wanted to pick all the categories. Like, let's let's talk about people everywhere in every strata.

是的。但是，是的，就像，这是一个过渡的季节，充满变化，其中一些变化是我们选择的，一些是被强加的。嗯。这些就是我们现在的对话，我觉得它们非常令人安慰、有启发性且有用，所以我很高兴能和这么多中年女性一起进行这些对话。我认为我们集体非常投入于书写一个不同的故事，不仅是为了中年，也是为了我们的未来。

Yeah. But, yeah, like, this is a time it is a transitional season of change and some of that change is chosen. Some of it is chosen for us, but Mhmm. These are the conversations we're having right now and I find them so comforting and instructive and useful and so I'm glad to be having them with so many women here in the middle of life. I think we're we together collectively are very invested in writing a different story, not just for midlife, but for our future.

我们即将成为这个庞大的世代，比我们年长一辈的是我们母亲那一代。我喜欢我们在某种程度上似乎对这些讨论有一种团结感，就像我们今天正在进行的那样。

We're about to be this huge generation one notch ahead of us that are our mom's ages. And I I love that there seems to be to some degree a bit of solidarity around these discussions that we're having like we're having today.

是的。今天的节目由Birch赞助。我用Birch床垫已经快一个月了，我完全爱上了它。我不认为我之前以为好的床垫实际上并没有给我所需的支撑。而这个Birch床垫，我的睡眠评分——我有一块手表告诉我我的睡眠评分。

Yeah. Today's episode is brought to you by Birch. I found my Birch mattress now for nearly a month, and I am obsessed with it. I don't think I realized that the mattress that I thought was good that I had before, that it wasn't giving me the support that I needed. And this Birch mattress, my sleep scores, I have a watch that tells me my sleep score.

就像，实际上我可以看到过去一个月睡眠评分在上升。我不是在开玩笑。Birch使用全天然材料，没有现在很多床垫那种有害的气体释放。我还知道我睡的床垫是用直接从大自然采购的有机原材料制成的，这使它既舒适又耐用。

It's like it's actually I can watch the sleep scores going up over the past month. I'm not even kidding. Birch has all natural materials. It doesn't have any of that like harmful off gassing that happens with a lot of mattresses now. I also know that the mattress that I'm sleeping on is made with organic raw materials sourced straight from nature, which makes it both comfortable and durable.

Birch只采用最优质的材料，如有机公平贸易棉、有机羊毛和天然乳胶，来打造豪华床垫，旨在给您最好的夜间睡眠。每张Birch床垫都注重透气性，所以能让您在夜晚保持凉爽。我是那种无论什么季节都需要所有窗户开着，总是说‘别碰我，我太热了’的人。所以这至少到目前为止确实帮助我保持了凉爽。

Birch sources only from the finest quality materials like organic fair trade cotton, organic wool, and natural latex to create luxurious mattresses designed to give you the best night's sleep. Every Birch mattress is constructed with a focus on breathability, so it keeps you cool at night. I am one of those people who, like, needs all of the windows open no matter what time of year and is always like, don't touch me. I'm too hot. So this has actually helped at least thus far with keeping me cool.

现在，Birch提供100晚无风险试用，让您体验床垫如何适应您的身体。床垫直接从他们的工厂免费配送到您家门口，并且是卷装在盒子里的，所以安装起来非常方便。Birch拥有自己的制造工厂，依靠熟练的制造商生产最高质量的产品，他们对床垫质量非常有信心，每张床垫都包含25年保修。我希望所有听众都能通过Birch的新床垫享受深度安宁的夜晚睡眠。请访问birchliving.com/culture，享受全场25%的折扣。

And right now, Birch offers a hundred night risk free trial to see how your body adjusts to the mattress. They're shipped directly from their facility to your door for free, and the mattress comes rolled up in a box, so it's really easy to set up. Birch owns its own manufacturing facility and relies on skilled manufacturers to produce the highest quality product, and they believe so strongly in their mattress quality that each one includes a twenty five year warranty. I want all my listeners to enjoy a deep restful night's sleep with a new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com/culture for 25% off-site weight.

那就是birchliving.com/culture，享受全场25%的折扣。Birchliving.com/culture。今天的节目由Beam赞助。像我认识的许多同龄人一样，生活忙碌，我晚上很难放松下来。我制定了一些对我很有帮助的日常习惯。

That's birchliving.com/culture and get 25% off-site wide. Birchliving.com/culture. Today's episode is brought to you by Beam. Like a lot of people I know who are around my age and have a lot going on, I struggle to wind down at night. I have come up with various routines that help me a lot.

其中一些包括比如在特定时间后不看手机，有时把手机放在另一个房间，或者读一本实体书。但我使用的一种产品是Beam Dream Powder。它不会让你昏昏欲睡，只是帮助你在醒来时感觉像一个获得了整夜睡眠的功能正常的人。Dream是一种全天然的睡眠混合配方，含有科学支持的成分，旨在帮助您入睡、保持睡眠和醒来时精神焕发。

Some of them include like not looking at my phone after a certain time or keeping my phone in the other room sometimes or reading an actual book. But one of the things that I use is Beam Dream Powder. It doesn't knock you out. It just helps you wake up feeling like a functioning human who got a full night's sleep. Dream is an all natural sleep blend with science backed ingredients designed to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed.

与其他助眠产品不同，它不会导致次日昏沉，只是提供真正的深度睡眠，帮助您早上真正感觉良好。Beam已经改善了超过17,500,000个夜晚的睡眠，92%的被调查用户报告睡眠更好且醒来时精神焕发。现在，限时优惠，Beam为我的听众提供他们有史以来最好的优惠，高达40%的折扣。您可以尝试他们最畅销的Dream Powder，并在限时内享受高达40%的折扣。请访问shopbeam.com/culture，并在结账时使用代码culture。

And unlike other sleep aids, there is no next day grogginess, just real deep sleep that helps you actually feel good in the morning. Beam has improved over 17,500,000 nights of sleep, and ninety two percent of users surveyed reported better sleep and waking up refreshed. Right now, a limited time, Beam is giving my listeners their best offer yet, up to 40% off. You can try their best selling dream powder and get up to 40% off for a limited time. Go to shopbeam.com/culture and use code culture at checkout.

那就是shopbeam.com/culture，使用代码culture享受高达40%的折扣。好的，我们将回答读者的一系列问题。看看我们能回答多少。这些问题都围绕着中年重塑这个更大的主题。太好了。

That's shopbeam.com/culture and use code culture for up to 40% off. Okay, we're gonna go through a bunch of questions from readers. We'll see how many we can get through Okay. That are just around this larger issue of midlife reinvention. Great.

所以第一个问题来自Chelsea。

So this first question comes from Chelsea.

我快四十岁了。我在二十多岁的时候生了两个孩子，而我们在过去两年里又生了两个孩子。我的一部分想继续生孩子，因为如果我不在擦屁股和母乳喂养，我不知道自己该做什么。为什么我如此害怕必须重塑自己，重新认识自己，并在孩子们变得更加独立时找到新的方式来度过我的时间？

I'm approaching my late thirties. I had two children in my mid twenties, and we just had two children in the last two years. Part of me wants to continue having children for the reason that I don't know what to do with myself if I'm not wiping butts and breastfeeding. Why am I so scared to have to reinvent myself, get to know myself, and find new ways to spend my time as my children become more independent?

所以我想提出这个问题，因为我觉得母亲身份有时是一种受欢迎的认同，但有时也会让人感觉，除了母亲身份之外我是谁？完全同意。而且很难从中抽离出来。你有五个孩子。你是否曾感受过切尔西所经历的那些情绪？

So I wanted to include this question because I think motherhood is sometimes such a welcoming identity, but then also sometimes it can feel like, who am I outside of motherhood? Totally. And it can be difficult to get outside of there. And you have five kids. Did you ever feel any of these things that Chelsea was feeling?

motherhood，特别是在孩子年幼、幼儿期和小学阶段，可以说是全方位的。它如此令人难以招架，以至于我根本没有给这台机器装上调速器，没有想过要减速慢行。那不是我的经历。我当时完全被淹没了。

Motherhood, particularly young, early childhood, and elementary hood kind of right. So on compassing. It was so overwhelming that I did not put the governor on the machine to go, I want to throttle back here and make this slow down. That wasn't my experience. I was so overwhelmed.

我当时想，什么时候这会变得容易些？什么时候他们能自己做个三明治？什么时候我能从这辆车里解脱出来？好像那就是我全部的生活。我的兼职工作就是开车送人、接人。

I'm like, when will this get easier? When when can they make a sandwich? When am I gonna get out of this car? Like, of just that's all I did. My part time job was driving people places and picking them up.

是的。所以我并没有那种感受。这可能只是因为孩子数量实在太多。当家里有五个孩子时，很难去怀旧感伤。但同样，正如切尔西所说，母亲身份具有某种如此包罗万象的特性，它是一个完整的品牌，主导着一切——你的节奏、你的日程、你的预算、你的友谊、你如何度过周末、你有什么或没有什么爱好、你的婚姻关系。

Yeah. And so I didn't have that. And that could have just been from sheer volume of children. It's very hard to wax nostalgic when you have five kids in your home. But also to Chelsea's point, there's something so all encompassing about motherhood that it is a full brand like that it dictates everything, your rhythms, your schedule, your budget, your friendships, how you spend your weekends, what hobbies you have or don't, your marriage relationship.

如果你已婚，那么在一段时间内，它绝对是这场赛跑中的领头马。因为母亲身份不是一个单项，而是所有项。有时我们几乎难以想象，当这一切不再是全部时，生活会是什么样子？当它不再是——

If you're married, it, it, it very much is the lead horse in that race for a while. And so because motherhood is not one line item, it's like all of them. It's almost defies our imagination sometimes to go, what is this gonna be when this isn't everything? When it's not

永远不会，对吧。

ever right.

我有什么爱好吗？我喜欢这个配偶吗？比如，当我每天多出这些分钟时，我的职业生涯会是什么样子？围绕它有太多的问号。而且我认为我们未必渴望或喜欢自己故事中的不确定性。

Do I have a hobby? Do I like this spouse? Like, what does my, what will my career look like when I have these extra minutes in every day? There's just so many question marks around it. And I think we don't necessarily crave or love uncertainty in our stories.

我们中确实有些人如此，你知道，就是那种冒险型人格，总是不停地想：哦，这周我能爱上什么？能颠覆什么？我能改变什么？重新构想什么？我欣赏这种性格，但大多数人并非如此。

Some of us do, you know, there's those kinds of risk taking types that are like constantly going, Oh, what could I love? Blow up this week? What could I change? What can I reimagine? I love that personality type, but that is not what most of us are.

我们大多数人对稳定和熟悉有着真正的偏爱。因此，连母职可能改变的想法都会令人害怕。我只能说，作为过来人——我最小的孩子现在19岁，我已经度过了那个阶段。我最大的孩子27岁。

Most of us have a real affinity for stability and familiarity. And so thus the, the idea of motherhood even changing can be scary. All I can say is that being on the other side of that, my youngest is now 19. So I'm through it. I'm through my oldest is 27.

两周后我将迎来第一个孙辈。我希望切尔西能做到的不仅是信任这个过程，更要信任她自己——她是一个真实、完整的人，不仅仅是一位母亲。她身上有许多有趣、有用、令人兴奋的特质，仍然等待在她生活中焕发新的表达。如果她能相信自己，我们也会逐渐成长为下一个版本的自己。这不会在周二突然结束，周三就披上新的外衣——不是那样的，我们是逐渐成长进入那个空间的。

I'm going to have my first grandbaby in two weeks. I hope that what Chelsea can do is not just trust the process, trust herself that she is a very real, very whole human being outside of being a mom. That there are things about her that are interesting, that are useful, that are exciting, that are still awaiting like this fresh new expression in her life and so if she could trust her own self, we, and also we grow into that next iteration of ourselves. It doesn't just end on a Tuesday and we pick up a new mantle on a Wednesday. It's not like that we grow into that space.

而这实在太令人兴奋了。我多年来一直这么说，你可能也知道——养育青少年很有趣。这并非人们暗示的那种注定悲惨的经历，那种衰老的母职体验。等到他们成为年轻的成年人，那才是最棒的。

And it is so exciting. I mean, have said this for years and years and years, and you probably know this, like parenting teenagers is fun. Like it's not this doomed experience, this aging motherhood thing that people suggest. Wait till you get wait till they're young adults. That's the best.

天啊，他们搬出去了，自己付手机账单。这太美妙了。就像，要是有人再给我一个婴儿怎么办？现在这样太棒了。

God, they move out. They pay their own cell phone. It is brilliant. Like, what if I was about to give me a baby? This is awesome.

我不需要再生孩子了。我能接触到一个婴儿

I don't need to have another baby. I have access to a baby

却不需要抚养。那是最棒的婴儿，最好的那种。所以我对切尔西和所有在问'当母亲这个阶段结束后我会成为谁'的女性充满希望。我想说：等你遇见她时就会明白——你会非常爱她的。

that I don't have to raise. That's the best kind of baby, the best kind of baby that there is. And so I have so much hope for Chelsea and all the women who are going, who am I gonna be when this season of motherhood is over? And I'm like, wait till you meet her. You're gonna love her so I

是的。这几乎就像，你知道，当你深陷其中时，你打开了那个关于'你是谁'的橱柜。表面上看起来非常空荡。你会觉得，里面什么都没有。没什么有趣的。

yeah. It's almost like, you know, you're in the thick of it, and you open up the cabinet of, like, who you are. And you like, just on the surface, it looks very bare. You're like, there's nothing there. There's nothing interesting.

对吧？所以你在看到后面之前就猛地关上了它，然后，哦，其实东西都在那里。就像，这是一个储备充足的橱柜。天哪。但你需要多看一会儿。

Right? And so you slam it shut before you look in the back, and like, oh, it's all there. Like, this is a well stocked cabinet. Oh my god. But you gotta look a little longer.

多么棒的比喻。太真实了。我还没遇到过哪个女人没有一个储备充足的橱柜。女性是如此迷人，如此出色。

What a great analogy. It's so true. I have yet to meet a woman who does not actually have a well stocked cabinet. Women are so fascinating. So brilliant.

我们是世界上如此伟大而辉煌的美好存在。所以，对于我们下一个版本的自己，以及再下一个，再下一个，都无需害怕。我们只会变得越来越好。

We are we're such a great and glorious good in the world. And so and there's nothing to fear about the next iteration of who we are and the one after that and the one after that. We just keep getting better.

下一个问题来自Claire，将由Melody来朗读。

This next question comes from Claire, and Melody's gonna read it.

我快五十岁了，一直很拼。读了研究生，学了工程，参加了铁人三项、超级马拉松，有三个孩子，还大量阅读、旅行和做志愿者。我和我不工作的配偶攒下了一小笔积蓄，但我现在感到缺乏动力。我很幸福，但这种幸福是喜欢花很多时间躺在床上，玩手机或听手机。我怀念那种驱动力和取得那些成就的感觉。

I'm in my late forties and have always pushed myself. Grad school, engineering, Ironman triathlon, ultramarathons, three kids, plethora of reading and traveling and volunteering. My spouse who doesn't work and I have accumulated a small nest egg and I'm feeling unmotivated. I am happy, but the kind where I enjoy spending a lot of time in bed and on or listening to my phone. I miss feeling that drive and taking off those accomplishments.

我感觉我的身心都在告诉我要放松，享受美好的生活，但如果没有一些大目标，我就感觉不像自己，尤其是我躺在床上思考民主的现状，觉得自己没做什么。这是怎么回事？我是正在穿越门户吗？还是我对手机上瘾了？或者我只是老了、筋疲力尽了？

I feel my mind and body are telling me to relax and enjoy my wonderful life, but I don't feel like myself without some big goals, especially as I lay in bed thinking about the state of democracy and how I'm not doing much. What's going on? Am I going through the portal? Or am I addicted to my phone? Or am I just old and exhausted?

我觉得克莱尔已经精疲力尽了。

I think Claire's burnt out.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为她长期以来一直逼迫自己追求这些目标，并用这些目标作为动力。但就像她作为一名耐力运动员会理解的那样，在某个时刻，你可能会训练过度，回报递减，对吧？你的身体不再按照你的意愿行事。而恢复的唯一方法就是真正的休息。

I think she has been pushing herself towards these goals for so long and has used the goals as a motivator. But at some point, like and I think she will understand this as an endurance athlete. At some point, you could reach overtraining and the returns diminish, right? Like your body doesn't do what you want it to do. And the only way that you recover is through actual rest.

但我也认为她不知道如何给自己这样的休息，因为它不是一项成就。它感觉不像是一种成就。

But I also think she doesn't know how to give that to herself because it's not an accomplishment. It doesn't feel like an accomplishment.

我说得不能再好了。正是这样。而且在美国文化中这很棘手，因为我理解克莱尔，我的思维方式也类似。我是一个成就者，我是九型人格中的三号。

I cannot say that any better. That is exactly what that is. And it's so tricky, in American culture because I understand Claire, I am wired in a similar way. I'm an achiever. I'm an Enneagram three.

我效率很高，能力很强。我理解。再加上像我们这样的人，不断前进、不断行动、不断成就，我们因此受到奖励。确实如此。

I am highly productive, big capacity. I understand. And then that is added to the fact that people like us who go, go, go do, do, do achieve, achieve, achieve. We are rewarded for that. We are.

是的。

Yeah.

我们的文化就像是，看她多拼啊。他们给我们送上玫瑰，把我们捧上神坛，然后说，天哪，多么好的榜样啊，你看她甚至不需要睡觉。她在四天里干了两周的活。看她多厉害，我们因此受到赞扬，有时还会得到金钱上的奖励。

Our culture is like, look at her go. And they give us the roses and they put us on the thing and they just say, God, what a role model, you know, like she doesn't even need sleep. She she works two calendar weeks in four days. What look at her go and we get applauded. And we get rewarded financially sometimes.

所以这里有一个很棘手的反转，非常非常棘手。但我深信，我们被赋予的这种节奏，以及我们其实是共谋的——你知道，我们也是那个说‘好吧，我们来做这个，我们不会有任何界限’的人。

And so there is a tricky reversal. Very, very tricky. But I am so convinced that this pace that we have been handed and that we're we're complicit. You know, we're the ones who also said, okay, we'll do this. We'll we'll have no boundaries.

我们不会说不，我们不会停下来。但我在51岁时确信，这不是更好的故事。我正在想明白。

We we won't say no. We won't cut it off. But I am convinced at 51. This is not the better story. I'm figuring it out.

我现在才逐渐意识到，就像，这些岁月我不会再回来了。而其中一些年份是如此忙碌、如此疲惫，如此无休止地繁忙，我甚至记不清它们了。是的。

It is dawning on me right now. Like, I'm not gonna get these years back. And some of them were so packed and so exhausting, so endlessly busy. I can't remember them. Yeah.

我记不清它们了。那么这是我想要的吗？我想在75岁时，回顾六十年的生产力，然后说，哇，发生了什么？嗯，我做了什么？

I cannot remember them. So is that what I want? Do I want to get to age 75, look back on sixty years of productivity and go, wow, what happened? Mhmm. What did I do?

就像，我还剩下什么？还有什么留存？我不想要这样，我不想要。所以我认为克莱尔可能必须要做的，也是我们很多人必须要做的，就是她能否忍受这种不适足够久，直到抵达另一边？

Like, what do I have left? What remains? I don't want it. I don't want it. And so I think what Claire's probably gonna have to do, which is what a lot of us are gonna have to do, which means is she going to be able to weather this discomfort long enough to get to the other side?

因为当你习惯了某种节奏和步调，突然之间，你的大脑说‘让我们享受生活吧’，但你的身体却说‘赶紧起床去跑个超级马拉松’，这真的很不舒服，因为你失调了，你不在状态上了。

Because that's uncomfortable when you're used to a rhythm and a pace and all of a sudden you're like, your brain says, let's enjoy this life. But your body's like, get your ass out of bed and go run an ultra marathon. That's just uncomfortable because you're out of alignment. You're misaligned.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为她可以重新调整状态，但她需要忍受这种不适感一段时间才能达到目标。我怀疑这是值得的。

I think she can get back into alignment, but she's gonna have to weather weather this feeling of discomfort for a minute to get there. I I suspect it's gonna be worth it.

是的。而且我认为，就像，我会给的一条建议是——这是我从我的Peloton教练那里学到的——就是把休息看作一种成就。这可能有点像是一种技巧，但同时，这可能是她需要的入门方式，以便理解休息是有价值的、是必要的，才能达到这个状态。

Yes. And I think, like, the one piece of advice that I would give is and this I get this from my Peloton instructors, is to frame rest as an achievement. That might not be like, that's kind of a hack, But at the same time, it might be the on ramp that she needs in order to understand rest as something that is valuable, that is necessary in order to get to this place.

哦天哪。太对了。我现在正努力做到这一点。你你有Aura戒指吗？你你这样做吗？

Oh my gosh. It's so true. I'm trying to get there right now. Do do you have an aura ring? Do do you do this?

你订阅了吗？我

Have you subscribed? I

我没有Aura，但我有我有一个替代品

don't have the aura, but I have I have a gourdiment that

我 是的。

I Yeah.

是的。检查我的睡眠。

Yeah. Check my sleep.

天啊。我也是。我每天早上都会检查睡眠，是的。没有它我就无法正常运作。所以，休息不仅是恢复性的，而且是必需的。

Oh my god. Me too. I slept like I check my sleep every morning and Yeah. I can't function without it. So, like, there is something not just restorative but required about rest.

是的。

Yeah.

你和我一样，对自己写任何一本书的过程都有点健忘吗？

You have what I have, which is a slight amnesia about the process of writing any of your books?

天啊。是的。是的。

Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah.

我就像是

I'm like It's

这是我们能继续写作的唯一方式。这是唯一的方式。我会告诉你我健忘的是什么。我的健忘变得严重的地方，与其说是写作过程，因为我知道这很奇怪。我是高度内向的。

the only way we can keep writing. It's the only way. I'll tell you what I get amnesia for. Where I where my amnesia, becomes acute is less the process of writing, which because I'm, I'm, I know this is strange. Highly introverted.

所以我非常喜欢，喜欢待在家里，在我安静的小房间里，用我安静的小笔记本电脑。我其实很喜欢写作。是的。我的健忘症体现在，我已经忘记了发布一本书是什么感觉。

So I very much like, like being at home in my quiet little rooms with my little quiet laptop. I actually like writing. Yep. Where my amnesia comes in is when I I have forgotten what it is like to release a book.

这正是你现在正在做的事情。我知道。

Which is what you're doing right now. I know.

现在正在做。

Doing right now.

就像，我的意思是，你每天做的采访数量，说着非常相似的谈话要点，我觉得你的大脑必须稍微关闭一下。

Like, I mean, the, like, the the number of interviews that you do a day and you say very similar talking points, I feel like your brain has to turn off a little bit.

我现在和你一起，还算是处于这些采访的前沿阶段。

I'm still kind of on the front edge of them right now with you.

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

但对我来说，还有旅行。比如图书巡回宣传这部分。我现在大脑里唯一能运作的方式，当我考虑秋季日程时，就是我几乎病态地拒绝看除了今天以外的任何事情。就这样。比如我每天会收到助理发来的邮件，上面写着：这是你今天的安排。

But also for me, it's the travel. Like the book tour piece. The only way I'm able to function right now in my brain when I am like thinking about my fall schedule is that I almost pathologically refuse to look at anything except today. And that's it. Like I have a daily email that comes in from my assistant that goes, here's your today.

我当时就想，哦，太好了。我今天能行吗？今天是我能应付的日子。我会等到明天再去担心明天的事。总之，这是个很不完美的系统。

And I'm like, oh, great. I can, I can do today? That is a day I can do. And I will not worry about tomorrow until tomorrow. And so anyway, I don't it's very imperfect system.

不。但就像我们建议这位听众要休息一样，我尝试做的一件事是理解：好吧，这是一个需要努力工作的季节。然后我会有一个可以放松、放缓节奏的阶段。

No. But like as we give advice for this listener to rest, I think one thing I've tried to do is understand, okay, this is a season of hard work. And then I'm gonna have a season where I pull off, where I pull back on the throttle.

这就是全部了，对吧？我将在十一月结束这个季节，和我最好的朋友们以及我的男朋友泰勒在爱尔兰和苏格兰度过将近两周的时间。这就是我的奖励。所以我觉得我能做到。

Is everything. Right? I am ending this season in November with, like, almost two weeks with all my best friends and with Tyler, my boyfriend in Ireland and Scotland. That's my price. So I'm like, I can get I can do it.

我能撑到那里的。

I can get there.

你会睡得很香的。那里温度会非常适宜，还会下很多雨。

You're gonna sleep so well. It's gonna be, like, the perfect temperature. It's gonna be raining so much.

啤酒、哈巴狗、毛衣。让我躺下休息吧。我已经等不及了。

The beer, the pugs, the sweaters. Put me to bed. Like, I can't wait.

今天的节目由Lola Blankets赞助播出。我现在正裹着Lola毯子录制这段广告。Lola毯子目前是我们家最珍贵的物品。我们经常为它争抢。它随着我在家里移动而随身携带。

Today's episode is brought to you by Lola Blankets. I am recording this ad while wrapped in a Lola blanket. The Lola blanket is currently the most valuable item in our house. We fight over it all the time. It travels with me as I move throughout the house.

这并不令人惊讶。我是个超级毯子爱好者，但这款简直是毯子界的MVP。我的意思是，我有大概12条毯子，差不多14条吧。毯子。我超爱毯子，而这是我用过最好的一条。

This is not surprising. I am a huge blanket person, but now this is like the MVP blanket. I mean, have like 12 blankets, like 14 blankets. Blankets. I love blankets, and this is the best one I've ever had.

我没开玩笑。它超级柔软，而且不是那种天鹅绒毯子洗一次就变硬的那种软。它真的太软了。我的是女王尺寸，大小刚好可以完全裹住自己还能随意移动。Melody有特大号，她说铺在床上完美，或者两个人在沙发上时当盖毯也刚好。

I'm not kidding. It is incredibly soft and not the sort of soft of some like velvety blankets that once you wash them the first time, you're like, oh, it's not as soft anymore. It is so soft. I have the queen-size, so it's just small enough that I really can, like, drape it all over myself and move it around. Melody has the extra large, which she says is the perfect thing to put on your bed, but also use as, like, a full cover when you're on the couch with, like, another person.

我简直对它着迷了，每个来我家的人都会争着用它。它还有很棒的弹性，有点分量但不会太重。就像你想要一条重力毯但又不想太重的那种感觉？就是躺下时想要点压力。它真的非常非常好。

I am just I'm so obsessed with it, and every person that comes over fights over it whether they can have it on their body or not. It also has like this cool stretch to it and a little bit of heft but not too much. It's like you know how if you want a weighted blanket but you actually don't want it to be that heavy? You just want some of that like pressure on you when you're laying down. It's just like it's really, really good.

它还可以机洗，在我家这点超级重要。双线缝制更耐用，洗多少次都不会起球或掉毛。跟我用过的其他毯子完全不同。现在限时优惠，我们的听众在lolablankets.com下单全场享受35%折扣，结账时使用优惠码culture。快去lolablankets.com，用码culture享35% off。

It's also machine washable, super important in my house. It's double hand for durability and it stays flawless like there's no pilling or shedding even with repeated washes. I cannot tell you how different that is from other blankets I've owned. And right now for a limited time, our listeners are getting a huge 35% off their entire order at lolablankets.com by using code culture at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com and use code culture for 35% off.

购买后他们会问你是从哪里听说他们的。请支持我们的节目，告诉他们是我们推荐你的。用Lola Blankets拥抱奢华吧。今天的节目由HelloFresh赞助。好了。

After you purchase, they're gonna ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets. Today's episode is brought to you by HelloFresh. Alright.

你可能听说过HelloFresh。他们已经存在一段时间了。他们把厨师设计的食谱和新鲜食材送到你家。但这个夏天，他们进行了巨大的菜单升级。这不再是你记忆中的或者以前用过的HelloFresh了。

So you might have heard of HelloFresh. They've been around for a while. They send chef crafted recipes and fresh ingredients to your home. But this summer, they have made a huge menu upgrade. This is not HelloFresh as you may have remembered it or if you've used it before.

他们的菜单翻倍了。现在每周有100种选择，包括新的季节性菜肴和来自世界各地的食谱。这个清单太棒了，令人印象深刻。有太多不同种类的食物了。

They've doubled their menu. Now you can choose from a 100 options each week, including new seasonal dishes and recipes from around the world. Like, this list is incredible. It's so impressive. There are so many different types of food.

比如，我对晚餐这类食物非常挑剔。我想要的是简单直接、富含蛋白质且有很多蔬菜的选择。我就是喜欢我喜欢的口味。菜单上有很多我会选择的菜品。因为想吃的太多，我花了很长时间才决定到底要什么。

Like, I'm pretty particular about the types of food that I like to eat for something like dinner. Like, I want something that's straightforward, but has, protein, but a lot of greens. Like, I like what I like. And there is a ton on the menu that are things that I would choose. Like, it took a long time for me to decide what I actually wanted because there were so many things that I wanted.

还有，你可以每周免费获得牛排和海鲜食谱。现在菜单上的海鲜品种增加了三倍，同样无需额外费用。每周还能发现新的时令食材，从荷兰豆到核果再到玉米棒，或者现在正有很多南瓜上市。我太喜欢了。

There's also, like, you can get steak and seafood recipes delivered every week for no extra cost. There's three times more seafood on the menu now. Again, no extra cost. You can discover new seasonal produce every week from snap peas to stone fruit to corn on the cob, or right now there's, like, a lot of squash coming in. I love it.

最佳烹饪方式变得更好了。访问 hellofresh.com/culturestudy10fm 即可获得10份免费餐食（10份免费餐食！）和一件终身免费商品。每个活跃订阅的盒子可享一份，免费餐食将以折扣形式应用于首单。仅限新订阅用户，具体因计划而异。请访问 hellofresh.com/culturestudy10fm 获取10份免费餐食和一件终身免费商品。

The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com/culturestudy10fm to get 10 free meals, 10 free meals, and a free item for life. One per box with an active subscription, and the free meals are applied as a discount on the first box. This is only for new subscribers, and it varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com/culturestudy10fm to get 10 free meals and one free item for life.

好的。接下来的两个问题是关于实际操作的。我真的很想包含这些，因为我觉得有时候人们会说‘哦，中产阶级生活方式的中年重塑当然好啦’之类的风凉话。

Okay. So our next two questions are about the practicalities. And I really wanted to include these because I think sometimes it's like, oh, must be nice to have a midlife reinvention with your middle class lifestyle, blah, blah, blah.

是的。

Yes.

那么好吧。第一个问题来自Anne。

So okay. First question is from Anne.

当感觉职业生涯的中年重塑至少需要暂时但显著降低收入时，人们是如何做到的？是通过承担债务，还是有一个收入足够支撑单薪生活的伴侣？我实在难以理解，或许是我经历了太多生活水平攀升，觉得无法承担这类风险。很想听听那些并非财富自由且生活在城市地区的人们是如何做到的。

How do people reinvent career wise midlife when it feels like it requires at least a temporary but significant drop in their income? Is it taking on debt and having a partner who makes enough to support you with a single income? I just have trouble wrapping my mind around it, but maybe I've just experienced too much lifestyle creep to feel like I can take these kinds of risks. Would love to hear how people who are not independently wealthy and living in urban areas do it.

然后是第二个问题，这也是第一部分的内容，来自Elise。

And then second question, which is also part of this first, is from Elise.

中年重塑是否只是那些拥有足够特权的人的专利？我有一份所谓的梦想工作，但仍然渴望转型。不幸的是，我是家庭的主要收入来源，承担着福利和两个孩子的责任，即使有一个支持我的配偶，这感觉还是不可能。

Is the midlife reinvention the purview of those with the right amount of privilege? I have a quote unquote dream job and still would love to pivot. Unfortunately, I'm the primary income earner with the benefits and two kids and even a supportive spouse, and it feels impossible.

我记得在你离婚后的头几年，还有2016年2月之后，你不得不非常坦率地面对财务状况，弄清楚发生了什么。这个过程的学习经历是怎样的？

So I remember the first couple years after your divorce and also after, you know, like, 02/2016, that you had to be pretty open about having to dive into your finances, figure out what is going on. Like, what has that learning process been like?

哦，天哪。这些问题真是太好了。

Oh, boy. These are such good questions.

我知道，对吧？

I know. Right?

这些问题真的很好。确实需要审视特权在这种重塑故事弧中扮演的角色，尤其是当我谈论职业重塑时。在某种程度上，他们是对的。不是每个人都有奢侈的条件可以在没有缓冲、替代收入来源或伴侣支持的情况下转型。但昨天我刚和我的朋友Kirsten Powers聊天，她一直在CNN的新闻机器里工作。

They're such good questions. And and it does bear an examination of where does privilege fit in to this sort of story arc when it comes to reinvention really of any kind, but particularly as I'm talking about a career. And to some degree, they're right. Not everybody has the luxury of making a pivot without either an a cushion or an alternative source of income or a partner's in it's they're right. But also, I was just talking yesterday to my friend, Kirsten Powers, who was in the, journalism CNN machine forever.

是的。

Yeah.

她已经看得够多、听得够多、做得够多，是时候离开了。这种无休止的竞争不会自行解决。她说得对，确实不会。没人在乎我们的职业转型、我们的梦想，或是我们渴望优先考虑的生活节奏与步调。

And she'd seen enough, heard enough and done enough to go. This rat race is not gonna fix itself. And she's right. It will not. Nobody is ever gonna care about our career pivots, our dreams, the rhythms or pace that we would love to prioritize.

没有人，没有人，没有人会为了我们而改变他们自己的事。所以她和她丈夫搬去了意大利，那里的生活成本低得多。比如，你的钱在这些老旧的小房子上特别经花。当我真正看到数字时，简直难以置信，我甚至问，那是美元计价吗？

Nobody, nobody, nobody is gonna bend their thing around us. And so she moved to Italy with her husband, which is a fraction of the cost. Like, your dollars go so far on these little old houses. It's just crazy when I actually see the numbers. I'm like, is that in dollars?

她说，是的。但不管怎样，我们昨天聊了聊，因为我在Substack上写的一篇文章里提到了她。她激励了我。事实上，对大多数人来说，如果我们想要转型，无论是职业上、精力上，还是想重新分配时间，其他一些东西就必须改变。所以，这可能意味着我们要大幅削减开支、改变消费方式、处理债务，或者意味着在这个阶段，我们要搭建这样的结构，以便有一个出口，能够顺利过渡。

She's like, yes. But anyway, we were talking yesterday because I included her in a piece that I wrote on Substack. I'm inspired by her. And the truth is, for most people, if what we want is a pivot, career pivot, energy pivot, if we want to reallocate our time, something else has to change. So whether that means we really took a hatchet to our expenses, way we spend money, our debt, if that means we go, okay, for this season, we're going to we're going to build the structure like this so that we have an off ramp here and we are able to get over.

我认为，无论人们怎么做，都或多或少需要做出一些牺牲。

I think regardless of how people do it, there are some degree of sacrifice that is included.

是的。

Yeah.

即使只是牺牲确定性、安全感，或是我们一直拥有的那份工作的稳定性——那份我们认为坚如磐石的工作——然后说，哦，我想扬帆驶向这些未知的水域。对我来说，这是一种风险和牺牲。但归根结底，我认为这取决于信念。我经常将未来的自己视为智慧的源泉。我作为作家写回忆录时这样做，作为普通人生活时也这样做——我常常思考我95岁时的自己。

Even if it's just the sacrifice of certainty, of assuredness, of of stability in a job that we've always had, that we so it's gonna be, you know, rock solid and go, oh, I'd like to I'd like to set sail over in these unknown waters. That's a that to me is a risk and a sacrifice. But I think at the end of it, we it comes down to god. The amount of time I look at my future self for as a source of wisdom is often. I did it as a writer writing this memoir, and I do it as a person living a life, which is I think so often about my 95 year old self.

那是我的锚点。我无法告诉你我有多频繁地向她寻求智慧。显然，我对自己的长寿非常乐观，能活到95岁。但我经常问她，你现在建议我做什么？

That is my anchor. I can't tell you how often I go to her for wisdom. I just have a very good feeling about my longevity, obviously, to be 95. I'm very optimistic about my lifespan. But I asked her so often, what do you advise me to do right now?

我会感激自己做了什么？我会感激自己冒险尝试了什么？什么？是的。我会为什么感到自豪？

What will I be grateful that I did? What will I be grateful that I risked? What? Yeah. What will I be proud of?

当我95岁躺在临终床上，被所有爱我的人、我抚养长大的人和我所有亲近的人围绕时，我会记得什么？他们会讲述关于我的什么故事？这帮助我今天做决定。它让我明白，实际上我认为这件事在一年后就不重要了，更不用说四十五年后了。

What will I remember when I am surrounded on my 95 deathbed with everybody who loved me and everybody who I raised and all my people, what story will they be telling about me? And that helps me make decisions for today. It helps me go, I don't actually think this is gonna matter in one year, much less forty five.

我喜欢第一个问题真正指出了生活方式膨胀如何阻止我们去做原本想做的事情。这正是我认识的许多女性困在不幸福婚姻中的原因。是的。而且，你知道，统计数据也证明了这一点，比如，当你受教育程度更高时，离婚率更低，通常是进步的高收入者，或者至少家庭收入更高，因为更害怕失去那种稳定性和随之而来的权力。因为我们谈论的是保持那种地位所带来的各种特权。

I like that one of that the first question really brought up how lifestyle creep keeps us from things that we otherwise wanna do. It's what keeps a lot of women that I know in unhappy marriages. Yep. And, you know, the statistics bear this out that, like, divorce rates are lower when you have higher education, like oftentimes progressive, high income earners, or like at least the household income is higher, because there is more fear of losing that stability and the power that comes with it. Because we're talking about all sorts of privilege that flows from staying in that position.

你说得对。

You're right.

我想说的是，我认为有时候我们作为成年人，非常害怕不稳定性。有时候是因为我们经历过，并且我们已经摆脱了它，我们再也不想过那种日子了，我理解。或者，债务是你在22岁时承担的东西，而不是42岁。无论是学生贷款还是信用卡债务。而且，我认为我们已经把这些事情归类为年轻人或不负责任的人做的事，而不是我们为了自救而做的事。

What I will say is that I think sometimes we, as older adults, are so scared of precarity. And sometimes it's because we've weathered it, and we're like, we grew out of it, and we never want to experience that again, and I get Or like, debt is something that you take on when you're 22, not when you're 42. Whether that's student debt or credit card debt. And like, I think that we have aligned those sorts of things as like things that younger or irresponsible people do instead of things that we do to save ourselves.

这很棒。这很棒。而且我认为有这样一个空间：我要把赌注押在自己身上。是的。这可能需要财务风险，无论那是什么，这种对自己本能、对自己未来决策能力、对自己偏好和欲望的信心是有价值的。

That's great. That's great. And I think there's this space to go, I am going to put my chips on me. Yeah. And that might require financial risk that whatever that might be, this sense of confidence in your own instincts, in your own decision making capacity for your future, in your own preferences and desires is that has value.

那是有价值的。所以我特别认为，我们女性希望下一阶段的生活版本能符合我们的想象、我们的希望、我们的抱负以及我们真正渴望从生活中得到的东西，但我们不愿意冒风险去实现它。因此，我认为稳定是幸福的一大阻碍。我想知道如果女性们说，我要去争取，我会怎样。无论那是什么，就像无论那是什么，我要去争取。

That is valuable. And so I I think women particularly, we want a version of of the next season of life to match our imagination and our like hopes and and our aspirations and what we are really craving out of life, but we do not want to take the risk to get there. And so I think that stability is a great deterrent of happiness. And I wonder what would happen if women go, I'm gonna go for it. I'm gonna whatever that is, like whatever that I'm gonna go for it.

我会承担代价，也会依靠自己达成目标。我热爱这个故事，并且认为它并不罕见。我经常看到中年女性经历这样的转变，这非常鼓舞人心。所以回到之前的问题，我们是否愿意承受这种转变带来的不适？

And I'm gonna pay the cost. And I'm gonna count on myself to get there. I love that story and I don't think it's rare. I see this happen all the time with women in midlife. It's very inspiring to watch and so again, going back to an earlier question, are we willing to weather the discomfort of making that transition?

我不知道。

I don't know.

是的。而且我认为，女性常常被赋予维系家庭的责任。就好像这是她们肩上的担子，而别人似乎都不用承担，对吧？家庭的稳定是女性的责任。

Yeah. And I think like, women are often ascribed the responsibility of keeping the family together. Like, it's like this the thing that feels like it's on their shoulders and somehow no one else's. Right? The stability of the family is the woman's responsibility.

是的。确实是。我的意思是，这太真实了。而且那种责任感是真诚的。

Yes. It is. I mean Yeah. That is that is so real. And and that sense of responsibility is sincere.

就像，是的。我可以告诉你，作为一个在26年后失去婚姻的人，我曾想坚持到底。我真的想。我对我们共同的生活有过愿景，我如此渴望。我想要一个长久的故事。

Like Yeah. I can tell you as somebody who lost a marriage after twenty six years, I wanted to go the distance. I did. I had a vision for our life together, which I craved so much. I wanted the long story.

我想要一个长久的爱情故事。我的父母和岳父母都在一起53年了，他们的家就像我们所有成年子女和孙辈的落脚点，这是一个美丽的故事。所以我们并不因为想要那样的家庭或感到有责任而显得逊色或软弱。但我们不是唯一在努力的人，那份负担不是我们独自承担的。

I wanted I wanted a long love story. I've got my parents, my in laws are both there on their fifty third year, both of them fifty three years together and their home is like this landing pad for all of us adult kids and now all the grandkids and it's just a beautiful story. And so we're not, we're not lesser or weak for wanting that or for feeling responsible, to to building that kind of family. But we are not the only ones doing it. Like that burden is not ours alone.

而且，会有那么一个时刻，现实严重损害了那个愿景。我们只是不愿承认。在某种程度上，我想要的只是我婚姻的故事，而不是实际的婚姻。所以这是一个很大的障碍。

And there is a, there comes a moment when that vision is so compromised by reality. And we're just, we're loathes to admit it. I said in a way, I wanted the story of my marriage, not my actual marriage. And so it's a big hurdle.

是的，不，是你婚姻的故事而不是你实际的婚姻。我想很多人能认同这一点，或者是你职业生涯的故事，或者是你为人母的故事。是的。你觉得好像一切，如果你能只是让孩子们离开你的...你推迟了吗？你是不是想，好吧。

Yeah, no, the story of your marriage instead of your actual marriage. I think a lot of people can identify that or the story of your career, Or story of your motherhood. Yep. You feel like everything like, if you could just get, like, the kids out of their your did you delay it? Were you like, okay.

嗯，等孩子们都离开家后，终于可以重新专注于婚姻了。

Well, will finally refocus on marriage when the kids are out of the house.

天啊，很难知道我是否曾经那样想过。我不确定当时是否有那么清晰的意识。是否有过那种明确的前瞻性想法，比如我会在这些孩子离开后好好经营婚姻。但我认为这确实在潜移默化中发生了，因为管理这么多变动的事务是如此 overwhelming，以至于在那个阶段不变成室友关系几乎感觉更罕见，就是不停地忙，你负责这个，我负责那个。你去接，我去送。

God, it's hard to know if I was thinking that maybe. I don't know if it was that cognizant. If there was like a real, forward thought, like I will, tend to my marriage after these kids leave. But I think it happened in the soft tissues for sure in which the management of that many moving parts is so overwhelming that it's almost feels more rare to not become roommates at that point when it is just go, go, you take this, I'll take that. You pick up, I'll drop off.

你去买晚餐。你去参加这个比赛，我去那个比赛。而且，再次强调，是我们自己选择了那个体系。养育子女不一定非得那样。那是一个可选的体系，我们所有人都说过，我们愿意过度安排孩子的时间，以至于他们在任何一周都没有十分钟的自由时间。

You pick up dinner. I'll you go to this game, I'll go to that game. It and again, that we've opted into that system. Parenting does not have to look like that. That is a optional system that we have all said, we would like to over schedule our children to the point in which they do not have ten minutes of free time in any given week.

所以是我们自己选择的。

So we've opted in.

并且嫁接在一个对家庭极其不友好的美国体系上，尽管它声称我们热爱家庭。就像，今天在美国养育子女非常困难，部分原因是我们仍然活在这种幻想中，即大多数家庭仍然有一个家长，一个成年人在家只是

And grafted onto an American system that is incredibly hostile to families, even though it says that we love families. Like, is incredibly difficult to parent in America today in part because we still live with this fantasy that most families still have one parent, one adult in the home just

去工作。完全正确。完全正确。我们的体系建立在一个过时的结构上。当然，我知道关于这一点已经有很多文章了，所以我就不赘述了，但即使结构发生了变化，大多数女性都在全职工作，这是最大的变化。

to work. Totally. Totally. We built our systems on an antiquated structure. And then of course I know there's so much ink has been spelled on this, so I won't belabor the point, but even as the structures change and most women work in full time capacities, that's the biggest.

我们仍然承担着家庭中绝大部分的无形劳动。所以这简直就是在每一步、每一个转折点都注定会失败的局面。

We are still tasked with the lion's share of invisible labor at home. So it's just a complete it's just set up for for failure kind of at every at every turn.

然后就会出现这种情况：当孩子离开后，这种精神劳动大幅减少时，你终于能喘口气，然后你会想，你是谁？

And then you get the situation where when that mental labor decreases significantly when and if the kids leave, you come up for air and you're like, who are you?

这又回到了切尔西的问题。

That goes back to Chelsea's question.

是的。

Yes.

我要用所有这些空闲的脑力做什么？比如，我会成为谁？我会变成什么样？难怪我们对它毫无想象力。我们根本没时间去梦想它。

What am I gonna do with all this free brain space? Like, who will I be? Who will I become? Like, it's no wonder that we have no imagination for it. We don't have time to dream about it.

就像根本没有多余的时刻，所以我——我只是——我喜欢这些问题，它不断让我加速思考：这一切都是不可避免的吗？我们生活的方式。我们所有人建造的这些船，现在必须让它们保持漂浮。这就是交易。比如，有没有办法把这些船卖回港口，选一艘更小的船，需要更少的人力、更少的燃料、更少的人员来让它浮在水面上。

Like there just isn't a spare moment and so II just II love these questions and it constantly like keeps my foot on the gas of going is all of this inevitable? The way in which we live. The ships that we have all built that we now have to keep afloat. That's the deal. Like, is there a way to sell these ships back into the harbor and pick a smaller vessel that requires less manpower, less fuel, less staff to keep that thing on top of the water.

这只是我在问的一个问题。我有幸能问这个问题，因为我年纪大了，而且已经养大了孩子。所以我认识到其中的虚伪，毕竟我是在这个机器里养大了我的孩子。

Just it's a question I'm asking. I have the luxury of asking it because I'm older, and I've already raised the kids. So I recognize the hypocrisy inside of it, having raised my kids in the machine.

没错。但我们也应该把这视为一种智慧，对吧？

Right. But also, like, we should understand that as wisdom as well. Right?

这样看待问题就宽容多了。谢谢你，安妮。

So that's a much more generous way to look at it. Thank you, Anne.

我觉得有时候我们会想，哦，当然啦，没亲身经历的人当然可以这么说。虽然我没有孩子，但我经常思考美国的育儿问题，因为我确实有一定程度的客观性——没有深陷其中。所以我通过大量提问和倾听，真正共情并理解为什么如今应对这些现实如此困难。但我也想说，事情不一定非得这样，其他国家、其他文明、其他社会就是证明——完全可以是另一种样子。

I think sometimes we we're like, oh, well, of course, someone can say that if they're not doing it. And I and, you know, I don't have kids, but I I think a lot about parenting in The US because I do have some of that mild objectivity of not being in the thick of it. So I can really empathize and understand by asking a lot of questions and doing a lot of listening about why it's so hard to deal with these realities today. But I also can say, like, it doesn't have to be this way and other countries, other civilizations, other societies are proof that it doesn't have to be.

百分之百正确。几年前，我和我最好的朋友们以及所有伴侣一起旅行——那是离婚前的事了——我们在意大利。在罗马参加了一个旅行团，是个小型的自行车游览。

That's a 100% right. I I a few years ago, we were on a trip with all of our my best friends and all the spouses. This is pre divorce, but we were in Italy. And we were on this tour in Rome. And our little on a bike tour.

我们那位自行车导游拥有意大利历史硕士学位。所以，人行道上的每块石头他都能讲出典故。我记得有一次我们停在咖啡馆喝咖啡，大家围坐在桌旁向他提问。他是个非常学术派的人，完全没有讽刺感或幽默感。

And our little bike tour guide had his masters in Italian history. So, like, he knew everything about every little rock on the sidewalk. And I remember sitting at one of our we'd stopped at a coffee shop to have some coffee and we're just circled around the table with him asking him questions. And he was a very he was an academic. He had like absolutely no sense of irony or humor.

他非常刻板，这反而让我们觉得很有趣。我记得问他关于意大利人生活方式的问题——他们对于休息、人际联系、感官体验、美食美酒以及美好生活的重视（就算被我们美化了也没关系，反正我完全吃这一套）。他非常直白地对我们说：'美国人什么都还不懂呢。'

He was very literal, which made him very funny to us. But I remember asking him something about the way Italians live. Like their, their priority around rest and connection and sensual experiences and food and wine and just a beautiful lifestyle. If not somewhat glamorized by us, but I don't care whatever I'm I'm in like I'm I'm biting on that hook. And I remember he said to us very just plain, he goes, oh, well, I mean, Americans, don't know anything yet.

他说：'你们就像刚出生一样。你们还需要再活两千年才能明白些道理。'我当时就想：天啊，我们简直是宇宙里的初中生——冲动、自以为是什么都懂、难以管束、处处矛盾，既依赖又专横。我们就是什么都不懂，还需要再活两千年才能稍微明白一点。'

You're just born. You're just like, he goes, you guys need to live about two thousand more years and then you'll know something. And I was like, oh my god, we are the middle schoolers of the universe, just impetuous and know it all and impossible to govern and like conflicted at every turn, like needy, but also bossy as like, I'm like, just don't know anything yet. We don't know it. We just need to live another two thousand years, and then we will know a little bit.

因此，是的，如果我们能谦逊地观察并学习历代智慧，那么世界其他地方确实对我们极具启发性，毫不夸张。

And so, yes, the rest of the world is very instructive to us if we have the humility to look and learn from the wisdom of the ages, literally.

我认为这非常恰当，一场表面上关于中年重塑、由女性提问的对话，最终转向了讨论精神负担的困难以及我们在密集型育儿实践中付出的巨大努力。这很合理。我们来到最后一个问题，这是节目的最后部分。如果你能留下来，帮我回答一个问题，这是为付费订阅者准备的'问问安妮任何事'特别环节。

I think it's very appropriate that a conversation ostensibly about midlife reinvention with questions from all women has turned into a conversation about the difficulty of the mental load and just how much we're doing in intensive parenting practices. Seems right. We're for the very last question. This is the last part of the show. If you can stick around and help me answer one question for the It's Ask Anne Anything a bonus segment just for paid subscribers.

听众们，如果你们想听听我们对中年友谊变迁的看法，请前往 culture study pod 的 .substack.com 注册。珍，再次与你交谈真是令人愉快。

Listeners, So if you wanna hear our thoughts on changing friendships in midlife, head to culture study pod at .substack.com and sign up. Jen, it has been such a delight to talk again.

谢谢。

Thank you.

如果大家想了解更多，可以在网上哪里找到你？

Where can people find you on the Internet if they wanna find more?

我在所有平台都是 gin hatmaker。要知道，就这一个。我是说，能有几个金·哈特梅克？所以我在所有社交媒体上都是这个账号。我还有一个 Substack 频道，叫'来自中年的信'，然后 jenhatmaker.com 是所有这些内容的一个很好的枢纽，但谢谢你邀请我。

I'm just gin hatmaker everywhere. Know, there's just the one. I mean, many gin makers can there be? And so that's what I'm on all the socials. I have a sub stack, channel too called letters from the middle and and then it's just jenhatmaker.com is a great hub for all those things but thank you for having me on.

谢谢你和我讨论'觉醒'。我感到非常荣幸能与你以及你的社区在一起，我们这里有这么多人。谢天谢地我们还有播客，因为我们这一代人有很多特点，但我们永远不会感到孤独。这是事实。

Thank you for talking to me about awake. I I feel really honored to be with you and with your community and there's just so many of us here. And thank goodness we do have podcasts because our generation is many things, but we will not ever feel alone. That is a fact.

非常感谢。感谢收听文化研究播客。请务必在您获取播客的任何平台订阅我们，因为我们有许多精彩的节目正在筹备中，我保证您不会想错过任何一期。如果您想推荐一个话题、询问关于您周围文化的问题，或提交问题参与我们仅限订阅者的建议时间环节，请访问我们的谷歌表单 tinyurl.com/culturestudypod，或查看节目备注中的链接。如果您想支持节目并获取额外内容，请前往 culturestudypod.substack.com。

Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to the culture study podcast. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts because we have so many great episodes in the works, and I promise you don't wanna miss any of them. If you wanna suggest a topic, ask a question about the culture that surrounds you, or submit a question for our subscriber only advice time segment, go to our Google form at tinyurl.com/culturestudypod, or check the show notes for a link. And if you wanna support the show and get bonus content, head to culturestudypod.substack.com.

每月5美元或每年50美元，您将获得无广告节目、独家建议时间环节，以及每期节目的每周讨论帖。文化研究播客由我——安妮·海伦·彼得森和梅洛迪·罗威尔共同制作。我们的音乐由Pottington Bear提供。您可以在Instagram上找到我：Anne Helen Peterson，找到梅洛迪：Melodius forty seven，找到节目：CultureStudy pod。

It's $5 a month or $50 a year, and you'll get ad free episodes, an exclusive advice time segment, and weekly discussion threads for each episode. The Culture Study Podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Petersen, and Melody Rowell. Our music is by Pottington Bear. You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodius forty seven, and the show at CultureStudy pod.