隆美尔在北非的败北

大家好，我是丹·斯诺。我正在举办一场派对，庆祝《丹·斯诺的历史》十周年。我非常希望你能参加。9月12日，在英格兰伦敦，和我一起录制一期特别的现场播客，共同庆祝这十年。

Hello, folks. Dan Snow here. I am throwing a party to celebrate ten years of Dan Snow's history. I'd love for you to be there. Join me for a very special live recording of the podcast in London, in England, on the September 12 to celebrate the ten years.

你可以在节目说明中找到更多信息并通过链接购票。期待在那里见到你。

You can find out more about it and get tickets with the link in the show notes. Look forward to seeing you there.

嗨，这里是诺克斯，来自《诺克斯与杰米的流行播客》。也许和我们一样，你也认识一些吸烟或使用电子烟的人。而ZYN似乎是大家都在谈论的产品，因为有很多好的理由可以转向ZYN尼古丁袋。比如ZYN尼古丁袋是美国无烟、免提尼古丁满足的首选。

Hi. This is Knox from the POPCAST with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the POPCAST, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And ZYN is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to ZYN nicotine pouches. Reasons like ZYN nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke free, hands free nicotine satisfaction.

你可以在10种口味中选择，每种口味有3毫克或6毫克两种规格。访问zen.com/find查找你附近的商店。警告：本产品含有尼古丁。尼古丁是一种成瘾性化学物质。

And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find ZYN at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

大家好，欢迎收听《丹·斯诺的历史热点》。我有个精彩的内容要分享给你。如果你在寻找戏剧性、影响力以及第二次世界大战前半段的重要性，那么北非战场绝对不容错过。这场横跨整个大陆的战斗，是二战中最激烈的战区之一，我认为如果希特勒当时意识到它的潜力，它本可以成为决定性的战场。

Hi there, everybody. Welcome to Dan Snow's history hit. Have I got a treat for you? If you're looking for drama and impact, importance in the first half of the second World War, first half of World War two, look no further than North Africa. In fighting that stretched across a continent, the North African theater was one of the most fiercely contested, and it could have proved really very decisive, I think, if Hitler had ever seen its potential.

意大利独裁者墨索里尼意识到了这一点。他决心控制地中海，并希望扩大意大利在东北非的殖民地。他认为这可以成为通往中东及更远地区的门户。盟军也深知其重要性。

Italian dictator Mussolini did. He was determined to control the Mediterranean. He wanted to expand on Italy's colonial holdings in Northeast Africa. He believed that that could provide a gateway to the Middle East and beyond. The allies knew how important it was too.

如果北非失守，中东及其石油资源——欧亚大陆的重要支点——很可能也会沦陷。盟军的胜利希望将随之破灭。这里有迅猛的推进与撤退，有隆美尔与蒙哥马利之间传奇的沙漠坦克对决（当然不是巴顿与蒙哥马利之间，但你明白我的意思），还有盟军大胆的登陆行动——火炬行动。

If North Africa fell, so too probably with the Middle East with its oil at great fulcrum of Eurasia. Gone might be the allies' hope of victory. There are breakneck advances and retreats. There are legendary desert tank duels between Rommel and Montgomery and Patton well, not between Patton and Montgomery, but sort of, but you know what I mean. There are daring allied landings and operation Torch.

美军首次在西线参战，这场战役残酷而迅速，最终具有决定性意义。其高潮发生在突尼斯。突尼斯成为轴心国在非洲的最后据点，1943年它的陷落不仅仅是一次军事胜利。这是二战重大转折点之一，标志着希特勒在非洲野心的破灭。

The Americans first entry into the war in the West, the campaign was brutal and fast moving and ultimately decisive. The climax of it all was in Tunisia. Tunis became the last Axis stronghold in Africa, and its capture in 1943 wasn't just a military win. Was It one of the great page turns in the second world war. It marked the collapse of Hitler's ambitions in Africa.

它强化了战局扭转的态势，并为盟军入侵欧洲打开了大门。在本期节目中，我们将探讨盟军如何在沙漠战争中扭转局势，以及突尼斯的陷落为何与俄罗斯的斯大林格勒和太平洋的瓜达尔卡纳尔同等重要。非常高兴邀请到索尔·大卫加入我们。他是畅销军事历史学家、小说家、广播人。你们都认识他。

It reinforced the sense that the tide was turning, and it opened the door for the allied invasion of Europe. In this episode, we're gonna be looking at how the Allies turned the tide in the desert war and why the fall of Tunis really are just as important as Stalingrad in Russia and Guadalcanal in The Pacific. Very happy to say that joining us is Saul David. He's a best selling military historian, novelist, broadcaster. You know who he is.

他是播客的老朋友，多次参与节目。他也多次出现在History Hit电视节目中，未来还会继续亮相。他刚出版了新书《突尼斯格勒：非洲的胜利》。现在有请他登场。请欣赏。

He's a friend of the podcast, been on many times. He's been on History Hit TV many times too, and he'll be on it again in the future. He's author of Tunisgrad, Victory in Africa, just published. Here he is. Enjoy.

倒计时10秒。托马斯炸弹投向了广岛。天啊

T minus 10. The Thomas bomb dropped on Hiroshima. God

上帝保佑国王。

save the king.

在实现某种空白统一之前，永远不会有纯粹的白色团结。永远不要再彼此开战。

No blank white unity till there is first some blank unity. Never to go to war with one another again.

点火升空，航天飞机已脱离发射塔。

And liftoff, and the shuttle has cleared the tower.

索尔，非常感谢你参加这个播客节目。

Saul, thanks very much for coming on the pod.

很高兴来到这里。感谢你的邀请。

Delighted to be here. Thank you for the invite.

首先，正如我在介绍中提到的，为什么北非、东北非地区会让温斯顿·丘吉尔在94年时如此担忧？他说，给我讲讲政治地理格局，整个全球战略地理形势。为什么这很重要？

First of all, as I was describing the introduction, why is North Africa, North And East Africa, why is Winston Churchill worrying about that at all, say, in '94? He said, give me the political geography, the whole global strategic geography. Why does it matter?

一个词，苏伊士运河。我是说，我们都知道

One word, Suez Canal. I mean, we know that

那是两个词。两个词。

That's two words. Two words.

一个地方，两个词。没错。我是说，十年后我们会为了控制苏伊士运河与埃及开战。但回到二战时期，这绝对至关重要，因为它不仅是通往中东油田的交通线，更是维系整个大英帝国的命脉。如果你要运输补给或部队往返欧洲，这是最快捷的通道——当然，很多从印度驻军调来的部队最终都要经过这里投入地中海乃至欧洲战场。

One place, two words. Yeah. I mean, 10 later, we'll go to war against the Egyptians for control of the Suez Canal. But to go back to the Second World War, this is absolutely vital because it's a line of communication, not just to the oil fields of the Middle East, but to the rest of the British empire. And it's the quick way back to Europe If you're transporting supplies or troops one way or another, and, of course, a lot of troops are eventually gonna come and fight in the Mediterranean, Europe more generally, that come from the Indian garrison.

所以这是绝对关键的生死线。反过来说，如果轴心国控制了它，他们就能实施封锁，基本上把帝国拦腰切断。但更重要的是，他们能获取石油。人们常忘了贯穿二战期间德国人——当然还有意大利人仍在参战时——的核心诉求就是获取足够石油，让他们的摩托化部队（尤其是德军）能持续作战。罗马尼亚油田因此成为关键战略目标。但实际上，他们的战略思维本该更有连贯性。

So it's an absolutely vital lifeline. If the Axis forces can get hold of it on the other hand, they can interdict, basically cut the empire in two, but more importantly, they can get their hands on oil. I mean, people forget one of the sort of key things for the Germans all the way through the Second World War and the Italians, of course, when they're still in the war is getting their hands on enough oil so that their motorized forces, particularly for the Germans, can actually keep operating. Plus the oil fields in Romania become a key strategic target. But, actually, they should have been more joined up thinking.

隆美尔非常赞同这个观点。是的，让我们谈谈石油问题。但希特勒，我们是否会从高加索方向以另一种方式南下？但这本该是他们的目标。

Rommel's very much of the opinion. Yes. Let's get to the oil. But Hitler, will we meet in the other way coming down from the Caucasus possibly? But it really should have been an objective for them.

但正如你所说，我在想那些奇怪的决策——中东本应比苏联具有更高的战略优先级。从那里，你们可以进入英属印度。你们确实正在突破欧洲的牢笼，不是吗？为什么希特勒没有更重视这一点？

But as you're saying that, I was thinking the many strange decisions you make is the Middle East should have been a much bigger priority than the Soviet Union. And from there, you've got into British India. You you you really are bursting out of your European prison, aren't you? Why why did Hitler not put a bigger premium on that?

因为他以大陆强权的思维而非海权思维思考，这本质上是欧陆国家与海洋强国的区别，尤其是那些缺乏绵长海岸线或像德国这样海上通道受限的国家——他们必须通过波罗的海进出，很容易被封锁。直到德军占领西欧海岸线前，封锁德国相对容易。而英美则完全以海权思维主导，当然二战后期还包括空权。

Because he's thinking in terms of continental power and not sea power, and that's basically the difference between Continental Europe and all the powers that are there, particularly powers without a huge coastline or, like the Germans, a coastline that has easy access to the seas. They have to come through the Baltic. There's easy to interdict. The Germans are relatively easy to interdict them until they get, of course, Western Europe coastline. The British and the Americans, on the other hand, our whole mindset is about sea power and, of course, ultimately, in the second World War, air power.

观察战略演变非常有趣——待美国正式参战后他们如何终结德国。丘吉尔作为英国传统外交思维的产物，主张通过封锁、空袭和消耗战逐步削弱德国。而罗斯福虽立场相似，但美军高层将领们却认为：不，我们要直接登陆欧陆，尽快消灭德军。

And it's really interesting when you look at the strategy, which no doubt will come on to when the Americans do come into the war proper as to how they're actually gonna finish off Germany. Churchill, as someone who's born of the British embassy, thinking very much in terms of restricting Germany through blockade, through air power, through the gradual wasting away of German resources. And so interesting enough is Roosevelt, but a lot of these senior American commanders are thinking, no. Let's get straight into that. Let's get into Continental Europe, and let's finish off the Germans as quickly as possible.

看在上帝份上直接坦克平推到柏林。

A tank to Berlin for god's sake.

能有多难呢？是啊，是啊。

How hard could it be? Yeah. Yeah.

好的。这个问题稍后再谈，现在说说战争爆发时的北非东北部局势。明显的摩擦点——意大利于1940年夏季参战。

Yeah. Okay. We may come on to that, but let's talk about Northern Northeast Africa at the outbreak of war. Obvious friction. Italy enters the war summer nineteen forty.

意大利人控制着利比亚。

The Italians control Libya.

他们自1912年起就控制了利比亚。30年代他们还通过极具争议的战役占领了阿比西尼亚（埃塞俄比亚）。他们正试图将这两块殖民地连成一片。中间是什么？正是我们之前讨论过的关键区域。

They control Libya, have done since 1912. They've also got their hands on Abyssinia, very controversial campaign in the 1930s. And they're really looking to join up those two colonies. What's in between? Well, these vital area that we've already discussed.

埃及并非英国殖民地，甚至已不再是保护国。虽然曾是保护国，但我们仍在那里驻有重兵，这才是关键。为什么？因为我们需要控制苏伊士运河。

Egypt, which is not a British colony. It's not even a British protectorate anymore. It's a former protectorate, but we do still have a sizable garrison there, and that's really the key. Why? Because we need to control the Suez Canal.

墨索里尼正以重建罗马帝国的思维谋划——控制整个北非海岸线，连接当时意大利帝国的两块版图，成为新时代的凯撒。听起来或许疯狂，但这确实是他心中的蓝图。他还在盘算：当1940年6月参战时，法英在他看来已然战败，把英国人赶出北非洲能有多难？

The Italians are very much thinking in terms of Mussolini's thinking in terms of a new Roman empire. I'll control the whole of the North African Coast. Join up those two bits of the Italian empire as existed at that time, and I'm gonna become a new Caesar. I mean, that you know, it sounds a bit mad, but that was pretty much in his mind. And he's also thinking, if I join the war in June 1940 at a time when France and Britain are already beaten, or at least in his mind, they were beaten, how hard can it be, really, to knock the British out of North Africa?

事实证明这比他预想的困难些，因为我们经历了这些战役——虽不赘述细节——但此刻英国对意大利取得了惊人的胜利。

Well, it turns out it's a little bit harder than he thought because we got these campaigns, haven't we, that we won't go through them all in in extraordinary detail, but the British enjoy stunning success against Italians at this point of the war.

是的。格拉齐亚尼将军指挥的意大利第十集团军初期攻势凌厉，他们入侵埃及时，英军因兵力悬殊（约1:5）主动后撤。

Yeah. The initial Italian attack by their tenth army under a general called Graziani has a lot of success initially. They invade Egypt, and the British forces there just pull back in front of them. Why? Because they're heavily outnumbered, probably by about five to one.

但驻守的英联邦军队中有精锐之师：后来声名赫赫的沙漠之鼠——第七装甲师，以及第四印度师。这些部队训练有素装备尚可（虽非顶级，也没有盟军标配坦克），都是硬骨头。

But the British and Commonwealth troops there, they've got some very good people. They've got what becomes the famous desert routes, the seventh armored division, also the fourth Indian division. These are tough formations, well trained, with reasonable kit. They didn't have the best kit. They didn't have any or what are gonna be the kind of standard tank in the allied forces.

谢尔曼坦克直到1942年才投入使用。他们当时还装备了瓦伦丁及其他各类坦克，性能远超意大利拥有的任何装备。因此当意大利军队开始向埃及推进时，他们的补给线拉得过长，最终构筑了一系列防御工事——这充分说明了问题。这绝非积极进攻的态势，而是极为被动的防守策略。

The Shermans, they didn't come into play until 1942. They had Valentines of various other tanks, and they were better than anything the Italians had had. So that when the Italians began to move into Egypt, they were strung out on long supply lines, eventually built a series of force, which tells you everything you need to know. That is not the most aggressive move. It's a very defensive move.

。这些行动成功孤立了意大利各驻防部队后，英军持续进攻。本质上说，丹，意大利人溃败了。这正是他们声名狼藉的原因之一。有趣的是，当你研究他们后期的表现，特别是某些装甲部队在战争后期的作战时...

The plan, of course, is to build up their forces. And it's at this point that the commander of the Western Desert Force, a man called Richard O'Connor, actually only recently a major general, I mean, he's not that senior in rank, takes the opportunity to launch a series of probing attacks, called Operation Compass as it was known, that become so successful isolating these various Italian garrisons that they just keep attacking. And in essence, Dan, the Italians fold. This is one of the reasons they have such a poor reputation. And it is interesting when you look at their performance, particularly some of their armored formations later on in the war.

的恶名。但此刻约3.6万人的较小规模部队击败了约20万意军，俘虏13万人。到1941年2月，他们几乎要将意大利逐出非洲。只需攻占最后一个主要港口——的黎波里，那里是意大利在北非最后的立足点。

They do do very well, and they don't deserve the reputation of being always in reverse gear. But this is where it comes from because a much smaller force of about 36,000 defeats a force of about 200,000. 130,000 captured so that by February 1941, they are on the brink of kicking the Italians out of Africa. There's only one major port to capture, and that's Tripoli, and that's the last foothold the Italians have in North Africa.

这太惊人了。对墨索里尼和他的野心来说，这是灾难性的挫败。英联邦军队就这样沿着海岸线长驱直入，深入利比亚境内。接下来发生了什么？

That's astonishing. So that's an appalling reverse for Mussolini and his ambitions. And so the Brits and Commonwealth troops advance all the way along that coast. They're deep into Libya. What happens now?

奥康纳主张解除束缚继续推进，几乎可以肯定他能攻克的黎波里。但丘吉尔在二战中犯下的重大战略错误之一——决定支援希腊——打断了这个进程。他们获得情报：德军很可能在不久后入侵希腊。

Well, O'Connor was all for, you know, just let me off the leash. Let me keep going. Almost certainly, he would have taken Tripoli. But what intervenes, unfortunately, considered to be one of the great strategic errors that Churchill makes in the Second World War, his decision to support Greece. They've got intelligence that the Germans are likely to invade Greece in the not too distant future.

英军已协助希腊击退了试图从阿尔巴尼亚入侵的意大利军队，但普遍认为若德军控制希腊，将主宰整个巴尔干半岛，甚至可能促使土耳其倒向德国。纵观全局，丘吉尔极力争取土耳其加入盟军——与一战时他们站在同盟国阵营截然不同。这不仅是保护希腊的问题...

The British have already helped the Greeks repel the Italians who are trying to come in through Albania, but there's very much a kind of sense that if the Germans get hold of Greece, they are going to dominate the whole of the Balkans, and there's a danger this will bring the Turks in on the side of the Germans. So that's something you see all the way through the water. Churchill's desperately trying to get the Turks in on our side, unlike in the First World War, of course, when they were on the central power side. So that's pretty much his thinking. It wasn't just a question of protecting Greece.

这关乎整个巴尔干和土耳其的影响力布局。但该计划惨遭失败：派往希腊的5万精锐部队（包括奥康纳麾下众多老兵）被德军重创，撤退时遗弃约1.4万人。他们先撤至克里特岛——我们都知道1941年5月德军大规模空降行动的结局：尽管德军付出惨重代价，最终仍击溃了人数更多的守军。这成为彻头彻尾的灾难。与此同时，由于精锐部队被调离，奥康纳永远失去了攻克的黎波里的机会。

It's a question of influencing the whole of the Balkans and Turkey, and it backfires horribly because the 50,000 strong army that sent to Greece, including a number of the veterans who had been fighting in O'Connor's force, are badly defeated by the Germans. They withdraw, leave about 14,000 men behind. They move back to Crete, first of all, and we know what happens there because the huge German airborne operation in May 1941, although the Germans lose a lot of people trying to capture the island, they eventually overwhelm a bigger defending force. So it's a total disaster. Meanwhile, O'Connor's lost the opportunity to take Tripoli because so many of his best troops were taken away.

有些部队确实经历了惊心动魄的征程，不是吗？他们先撤退到埃及，随后一路突进至西利比亚，接着又攻入希腊，最终被逐出希腊。这些部队可谓跋涉千里。

Some of those units had a wild ride, didn't they? They retreat into Egypt. They then burst into all the way to Western Libya. Then they advanced into Greece, then been pushed out of Greece. They've done a lot of miles.

没错，他们确实转战千里。平心而论，丘吉尔着眼的是全局战略。我提到过土耳其的情况。

Yeah. They're doing a lot of miles. I mean, Churchill's seeing the big picture, to be fair to him. He's seeing the big, broad strategic picture. I mentioned Turkey.

虽然整个巴尔干半岛即将沦陷，但当时还未完全落入德国掌控。别忘了时代背景——这是1941年初，丹。作为后世的历史研究者，我们知道美国将在1941年末参战。但当时丘吉尔正四处寻求盟友支援。

The whole of the Balkans haven't fallen under German sway, although they're about to. And remember the context of the time. This is early nineteen forty one, Dan. We know the Americans are gonna come in in late nineteen forty one because we're historians. But at the time, he's scrabbling around for allies.

他拼命寻找任何能在对德战争中立足的契机。从宏观战略来看，他的迟疑是可以理解的。不过由于我们知晓后续发展，这显然成了致命失误。这个失误更因希特勒而加剧——这位对北非兴趣寥寥的元首（我们开场就提过），本应意识到石油的重要性，明白夺取苏伊士运河既能打击敌人又可巩固自身地位，但他始终未能醒悟。

He's scrabbling around for anything that can give him a foothold in the war against Germany. And it is understandable, I think, when you see the big picture that he paused. It also appears to us, because we know what happens next, a fatal error. Now the fatal error was compounded by the fact that Adolf Hitler, who had really very little interest in North Africa, we've already mentioned that at the top, he should have been aware of the importance of oil, of the need to take the Suez Canal, both in combating his enemies, but also in establishing a strong position for himself. But he never did.

但为了挽救意大利盟友墨索里尼的颓势（说来奇怪，希特勒确实颇为欣赏这位独裁者同僚——虽未视其为平等伙伴，但两人确有钢铁盟约的袍泽之谊），他派出了最优秀的将领隆美尔，带着两个师组成非洲军团驰援北非。正是这个决定，使得英国及英联邦部队在非洲大陆的处境急转直下，与他们在希腊的遭遇形成鲜明对比。

But what he did do in a desperate attempt to shore up the Italians and his fellow dictator Mussolini, who it might be strange to say he was quite fond of. I mean, he he didn't see him quite as an equal, but they were brothers in arms, the pact of steel. And so he sends one of his best generals, Rommel, with two divisions, a corps, the so called Africa corps, to North Africa. And it's at that point that things begin to turn very nasty for the British and Commonwealth troops on the Continent Of Africa as opposed to what's just happened to them in Greece.

这就是这场战役的戏剧性所在——意大利人仅剩海岸线上的最后据点，但凭借港口优势，他们成功投送这两个师。随后隆美尔便展开了势如破竹的攻势。

Because this is that drama of this campaign from that last little Italian toehold on the coast, but just enough they've still got the port. They can assert those two divisions, and Rommel goes on a bit of a rampage.

确实如此。这是我们见证隆美尔军事才华巅峰的时刻。关于他的才能或许争议不断，但无可否认的是——这位将领在战术指挥与作战行动方面堪称绝世天才。

He does. I mean, this is where you see Rommel at his best. Now we can debate long and hard the talents Rommel had. What he was an absolute genius at is tactical fighting and operations. In other words, okay.

我面对一个敌人，对方部署了一定数量的师。我该如何击败他？关键在于机动、出其不意，在最不被预料的时候出现。他在1940年战役中就运用了这些策略，当时他指挥着所谓的‘幽灵师’——第七装甲师。有趣的是，他并未受过装甲兵指挥的训练。

I've got a an enemy against me, set up certain number of divisions. How am I gonna defeat him? It was all about maneuver, surprise, appearing when you're least expected. And he'd done all this in the nineteen forty campaign when he commanded the so called ghost division, the seventh panzer division. It's interesting because he had no training as a panzer commander.

他并非那些

He wasn't one of those guys in

1919年几乎撰写了步兵作战手册的人

the '19 Wrote virtually wrote the manual infantry fighting

在《步兵进攻》一书中。是的，他是在第一次世界大战期间于意大利山区作战而成名的人物。他获得了蓝色马克斯勋章，相当于二战中骑士十字勋章的顶级荣誉。

in 12 o one. Infantry attacks. Yeah. He was a man who'd made his name fighting in the mountains in Italy in the First World War. He wins the Paul Merit, the blue max, the equivalent of the top award, the knight's cross in the Second World War.

他深谙步兵作战之道，同时也具备极快的学习能力。公平地说，他在一战中使用的许多步兵战术与后来运用坦克的战术相似。关键在于他能够

He's a man who really understands how infantry soldiers fight, but he's also someone who can learn very quickly. To be fair, a lot of the tactics he's using in the First World War with infantry were similar to what he was doing with tanks. It's just that he can

渗透与

Infiltration and

渗透。他理解震慑效应，这是典型的闪电战战术。当你在敌人最不设防时出现，就能产生倍增的战斗力。对其神经中枢、通讯线路及指挥能力的冲击，远超过实际兵力的优势。他在沙漠中运用了完全相同的战术，并长期取得了巨大成功。

Infiltration. And he understood the shock, and it's absolutely classic kind of Blitzkrieg warfare. If you appear when the enemy least expects, you've got a multiplying force there. The shock to their kind of nerve center, their their lines of communication, their ability to command, it outdoes anything you've got there in terms of actual material force, and he used exactly the same tactics in the desert and for a long time was very successful.

因为如果你身处前线，打电话给总部时发现接听的是个德国人，你会惊慌失措。只能选择放弃。实际上可能只是一两辆军车，但此刻你几乎陷入一种瘫痪状态。

Because if you're on the front line, you pick up the phone to your HQ, and there's a German there, you panic. You just have to give up. Now the fact is it could just be one or two vehicles, but it just, at this point, you kinda go into a sort of paralysis.

没错。他屡次证明敢于冒险能带来非凡战果。他最大的问题在于，虽然作为战术指挥官才华横溢，却缺乏战略眼光。这是什么意思呢？比如整体局势——如果我军抵达苏伊士运河，接下来会发生什么？

Yeah. And he shows time and again that actually taking risks produces extraordinary results. The big problem he had is that for all his talent as a tactical and operational commander, he wasn't great on strategy. And what do I mean by that? Well, the whole big picture, which is that if I get to the Suez Canal, what's gonna happen next?

他经常提及与南下高加索的德军会师的可能性。但我觉得这多少有些事后诸葛。要知道那时已是1943、1944年，他只是在回顾本可能实现的战局。

He often spoke about the possibility of joining up with German forces coming down to the Caucasus. My instinct is that this was a bit after the event. You know? This was 1943, 1944. He's looking back at what might have been.

实际上他只是不断推进。他全力冲向苏伊士运河，对后勤漠不关心。历史上许多伟大将领——丹，你肯定知道，包括我特别推崇的马尔伯勒公爵——都极其注重确保部队补给。而隆美尔更倾向于先击败敌人，再让补给跟上。简直像赌徒。

In reality, he's just driving forward. He's trying to get to the Suez Canal, and he's not too concerned about logistics. A lot of the great commanders in history, as you well know, Dan, including, you know, my personal favorite, and that's the duke of Morbra, were absolutely detail oriented about making sure that you always have the supplies you need to do the job. Rommel was much more, let's defeat the enemy, and let's see if the supplies can catch up after the event. Cavalier.

他在北非战场的最大困境是：战果越辉煌，深入埃及越远（阿拉曼战役前确实推进极深），补给线就拉得越长。这给意大利盟友带来巨大压力——毕竟大部分补给经意大利转运，而非直接从德国空运（原因显而易见）。西西里岛机场和意大利船队虽尽力运输，却永远无法满足隆美尔日益增长的补给需求。

And the biggest problem he had in the whole of North Africa is the more success he had and the deeper he went into Egypt, and he does eventually go very deep into Egypt prior to the Alamein battle, His lines of supply are getting further and further and further away, and this is causing increasing problems for the Italians in particular. Most of his supplies are coming through Italy. They're not being flown direct from Germany for obvious reasons. They're going down to the airfields down in Sicily, and they're coming across with Italian shipping. And while on the one hand, they did a pretty good job, the Italians are getting supplies across, it was never enough to satisfy this esatial demand that Rommel had.

于是1941年春天，隆美尔向托布鲁克挺进。这座著名大港本可极大缓解补给压力——拥有港口对物资运输至关重要。

So Rommel, in spring nineteen forty one, he advances. He gets to Tobruk famous and that would have helped because it's a big port. It's quite useful to have a port and facilitate those supplies coming in.

的前印度陆军军官——这位被历史低估的杰出将领，虽在阿拉曼战役前被解职（我们稍后会谈到），但第八集团军在他领导下实施多项改革，展现出卓越指挥才能。

Yeah. You could argue that, actually, his failure to take Tobruk in 1941, he does take it in 1942. His failure to take it in 1941, the famous siege that's finally relieved at the end of 1941 with operation Crusader, which was, one of Alconlex, the orc as he was called, former Indian army officer, but very effective commander. History, I don't think, has been that fair to him because, of course, he's relieved of command just before the famous Alamein battle, which I'm sure we'll come on to. But the AUK institutes a number of changes and proves to be a pretty effective commander.

十字军行动最终解除了围困。

Operation Crusader finally relieves the siege.

我们现在来到了1941年。

We're now at the 1941.

1941年，没错。我认为那关键性的六七个月期间，丹，在英国和英联邦部队能够充分集结资源之前——他们确实在1942年做到了这一点，特别是当然在美国于1941年底参战之后——那才是真正击败北非英联邦军队的机会。而他未能把握住部分原因在于未能攻占托布鲁克港，否则本可以将补给线大幅缩短至实际战区。他最终目标是夺取亚历山大港，若能成功便能一劳永逸解决问题。

1941. Yeah. And it's that crucial six or seven month period, I suspect, Dan, before the British and Commonwealth troops were able to build up their resources properly, which they do in 1942, particularly, of course, after America comes into the war at the end of 1941, that was the real opportunity to defeat the British and Commonwealth troops in North Africa. And he doesn't take it partly because he fails to capture the port of Tobruk, which would have allowed him to bring his supplies much closer to the actual area of battle. Now, ultimately, he's hoping to catch Alexandria, and that would have solved the problem thereafter.

但他必须先抵达亚历山大港，而挡在他面前的——我们稍后会详谈——正是阿拉曼战役。与此同时，1942年初被十字军行动击退后，他又再度推进。这是第二次向埃及方向的进军。

But he's got to get to Alexandria first, and standing in his way, as we will come on to, I know, is El Alamein. Meanwhile, in early nineteen forty two, having been pushed back by Operation Crusader, he then advances again. So this is the second kind of movement towards the Egypt.

所以十字军行动表现不错，奥昆勒，他们将德军逼退回利比亚。但随后他又卷土重来。1942年初，轴心国军队再次沿同一条公路进犯。

So Operation Crusader, Orkunle, they do well. They push the Germans back into Libya. Yeah. But then he's coming again. So early nineteen forty two, here comes the Axis again up that same road.

是的。在1942年5月的加扎拉战役中有一个关键转折点——当时我军看似构筑了坚固防御工事（位于利比亚境内），后方还有托布鲁克港。但战役失利源于敌军极其高明的佯攻战术，以及我们之前探讨过的所谓'左勾拳'战术——德军迂回包抄了盟军在加扎拉防线南翼的防御。这就是著名的加扎拉战役。

Yeah. And there was one really key moment during the the battle for Gazala, which is in May 1942 when we look like we built a pretty strong defensive position, and this is in Libya. We've got the Port Of Tobruk behind. But once that battle is lost, then it's lost because of some incredibly effective feints and, you know, as we were discovering before, the so called left hook where he goes right round these southern defenses of the allies in the Gazala line. This is known as the battle of Gazala.

深入沙漠腹地。

Deep into the desert.

深入沙漠腹地。他在最意想不到时出现，尽管你可能以为盟军此时已领会其意图，此举彻底瓦解了盟军当时的防御体系，迫使其撤回埃及，从而暴露了托布鲁克。此刻所有盟军都在想，托布鲁克当然能像上次那样坚守。它拥有约35,000人的驻军，但这次德军并未围城。

Deep into the desert. Appearing when he's least expected, although you might have thought they'd have caught the message by this point, completely dislocates the allies' defensive system at that point, forces a withdrawal back to Egypt, which uncovers Tobruk. Now all the allies are thinking, well, of course, Tobruk held out. Before he can hold out, again, it's got a garrison of about 35,000. But the Germans this time don't put it under siege.

他们直接发起进攻。隆美尔率领他的第十五和第二十一装甲师，以及部分精锐意大利摩托化部队，直扑他眼中的托布鲁克守军薄弱点。守军指挥官是南非人克洛帕（这名字有点倒霉），当地驻守时间不长的南非部队很快溃败，几乎承担了全部战败责任——要知道，丹，三万多人的驻军投降，这在上级眼里可不好看。

They attack directly. So Rommel launches his two panzer divisions, the fifteenth and the twenty first, and some of his very effective Italian motorized troops into a direct attack on what he sees as the weak spot in the Tobruk Garrison. Tobruk was commanded by a guy called Klopa, slightly unfortunate name, a South African. There are South African troops there who haven't been there very long, and they pretty much get the blame for the defeat, which happens very quickly. I mean, if you surrender a garrison of 30,000 plus, Dan, that's not gonna go down well with your Look.

我没这个打算。我不希望你关注那里。我感觉自己像是...

I don't intend to. I don't want you looking there. I feel like I'm.

就伤亡人数而言，这是英联邦军队在二战中仅次于新加坡战役的第二惨重失败——我们都知道丘吉尔对此事的评价。他恰巧正在美国争取美方支持时，接到了托布鲁克失守的消息。

It was the second worst allied defeat in terms of numbers, British, British, and Commonwealth defeat of the Second World War after Singapore, and we all know what Churchill thought about that. He happens to be in America when he gets news of Tobruk trying to convince the Americans.

得说明这距离新加坡陷落并不太久。所以你知道...

Not that long after Singapore, we should say. So, you know

仅仅几个月后。1942年前半年对盟军可谓噩耗连连。而加扎拉战役溃败后托布鲁克数日内沦陷，更是给了整个体系最后一击。战败是一回事...

Just a few months later. I mean, the if you think of the first six months of 1942, they have not gone well. Yeah. And this final shock to the system is losing the battle of Gazala and then Tobruk Falls within a matter of days. Defeat is one thing.

丘吉尔事后写道：'耻辱是另一回事'。虽属后见之明，但这确实反映了他当时的想法。唯一的好消息是，正如我所说，他当时在美国成功说服罗斯福和马歇尔等美军高层，紧急调拨了300辆尚未装备美军装甲部队的全新谢尔曼坦克——可想而知美军多恼火。但罗斯福意识到事态危急，这些坦克最终绕道长途运抵北非。

Disgrace is another is what Churchill said about that. Admittedly, he wrote about that after the event, but, nevertheless, that would have been the way he was thinking at the time. The one good thing that came out of it was, as I say, he was in America at the time, and he convinces Roosevelt and the senior American chiefs, including Marshall, to donate 300 brand new Sherman tanks, which hadn't even been issued to the American armored forces. And you can imagine how irritated they were. But Roosevelt realized this is an emergency, and so they're sent very quickly to, North Africa, going the long way round, of course.

他们不得不绕道而上，穿过红海。这也是控制地中海如此重要的原因之一，他们及时赶到以应对即将到来的关键战役。

They had to go all the way round and up through the Red Sea. This is one of the reasons why control of the Mediterranean is so important and got there in time for the crucial battles to come.

另外，丘吉尔是在什么阶段说服美国人的？因为这同样相当不寻常。他们真正想做的是应对全球战争——既要对抗希特勒，又要在太平洋与日本作战。实际上，你们最应该做的首要事项之一，就是在北非西海岸登陆。

Also, at what stage does Churchill persuade the Americans? Because this is rather extraordinary as well. That what they really wanna do, they've got global war. They're at war against Hitler, and they're at war against the Japanese Pacific. Actually, the best thing you could possibly do, one of the first things you should do is land on the West Coast Of North Africa.

没错。

Yeah.

这并非显而易见的策略，对吧？

It's not the obvious move, is it?

确实不是显而易见的策略。丘吉尔考虑了多重因素。他清楚如果西方盟军直接进攻西北欧（这是美国人的期望）——我之前提到的美军参谋长马歇尔曾拟定过详细备忘录——他在1942年3月左右来到英国商讨后续行动。自美国参战以来，双方达成的共识始终是'德国优先'。

It wasn't the obvious move. Churchill had multiple factors in mind. He he was aware that if the Western allies went straight for Northwest Europe, which was the Americans' hope, Certainly, the chiefs of staff marshal I mentioned, the US army chief of staff, had written a very detailed memorandum called the marshal memorandum. He came over to Britain in about March 1942, and they discussed what would happen next. Now the agreement had been, since America entered the war, Germany first.

换言之，先解决德国这个更大威胁，再转向日本。这意味着我们将把大部分资源用于建设武装力量（众所周知美军在二战初期规模极小，但在1940至1941年参战前已开始扩军）。但多数美军参谋长坚持认为应该直接进攻西北欧。

In other words, we'll deal with Germany first. That's the bigger threat, and then we'll move on to Japan afterwards. In other words, we're gonna devote most of our resources as we begin to build up our armed forces. The US army and US armed forces famously are absolutely minuscule at the start of the Second World War, but they are being built up between 1940 and 1941 even before America comes into the war. But most of The US chiefs of staff are convinced, let's go straight into Northwest Europe.

这是直取柏林的最快途径。对持强烈反对意见的英国人而言幸运的是——他们认为时机远未成熟：德军仍过于强大，过早行动将遭受重创。我们还可以通过其他方式支援苏联。因此1942年美军进入法国的关键动机之一就是'必须援助苏联'。

It's the quickest way to get to Berlin. Fortunately for the British, who were very much of the opinion, it's far too soon. The Germans are still too strong. We will be badly beaten if we go too early, and there are other things we can do to support the Soviets. So one of the key drivers for the Americans getting into France in 1942 is we must help the Soviets.

他们正承受巨大压力。前一年刚遭受德军进攻，勉强守住莫斯科。但如今德军再次发起攻势，斯大林格勒战役打响，我们必须采取行动支援。最佳策略就是进军法国西北部。

They're under pressure. They've been attacked by the Germans the year before. They've narrowly held out and held on to Moscow. But there's now a renewed attack, the start of the Stalingrad campaign, and we've got to do something to help them. And the best thing we can do is get into Northwest France.

丘吉尔及其参谋长们——包括帝国总参谋长布鲁克——持完全相反意见。他们认为时机未到，若能进军北非将大有可为。确实，这能在一定程度上维护英国利益。这点很有意思。

Churchill's very much of the opposite opinion as are his chiefs of staff, including Brooke, the chief of the imperial general staff. They feel it's too early, and there's a lot of good that can be done if they can get to North Africa. Yes. They're going to assist British interests to a certain extent. That is Interesting.

没错。苏伊士运河，还有油田。但这些都是战略层面的考量。当时还有种共识：制海权将在二战中起决定性作用。我们要扼住德国与世界沟通的命脉。

Yeah. The Suez Canal, but the oil fields. But this was big picture stuff here. There's also a sense of sea power is gonna be crucial in the Second World War. We throttle Germany's ability to communicate with the rest of the world.

是的。最终必须在欧洲大陆击败德军，但海上封锁能极大削弱其实力。战略轰炸行动已初具规模，43至44年将更猛烈。同时收复北非不仅能重挫德意联盟野心，更能保障苏伊士运河、油田等战略要地及帝国交通线，还将成为进攻欧洲南翼的跳板。

Yes. Ultimately, they're gonna have to be defeated on the continent, but they can be heavily eroded by a sea blockade, An air campaign, the strategic bombing campaign is beginning to gather momentum. It will do so even more in '43 and '44, but we can also do serious damage to their aspirations and their alliance with Italy by retaking North Africa. Not only is that gonna safeguard all the strategic interests in North Africa, Suez Canal, oilfields, lines of communication with Empire, it's also gonna provide a springboard into Europe, the southern underbelly

欧洲柔软的南翼。而且对美国来说——我们既然已在北非与德军交战，何不更进一步？除了获得坦克支援，他还争取到美军承诺：当英军在埃及和利比亚作战时，美军将在西北非（今摩洛哥、阿尔及利亚一带）发动大规模两栖登陆，时间定在同年晚些时候。

soft underbelly of Europe. But and also, I suppose, look, Americans, we're fighting the Germans in North Africa. That's just where we are. Why not get involved? So as well as getting these tanks, he's got a commitment from the Americans that as they're fighting in Egypt and Libya, the Americans are gonna launch this massive amphibious assault in Northwest Africa, sort of modern Morocco and Algeria and, like, later in the year.

好。这些计划都将贯穿1942年。但在此期间英军必须坚守阵地——若在此期间被赶出欧洲大陆就太尴尬了。整个1942年，隆美尔都在向埃及腹地推进。

Okay. So that's all coming to go through 1942. Meantime, though, the Brits gotta hold on because that'd be embarrassing if they've been kicked out of the continent in the meantime. Through the 1942, Rommel is advancing deep into Egypt.

是的。如之前所述，他于1942年6月攻占托布鲁克，下一个目标是苏伊士运河。此刻他正逼近英军最后的要塞阵地——阿拉曼防线。这里的地形很有意思：作为咽喉要道，从海岸到卡塔拉洼地仅有约40英里宽。

Yeah. He's taken Tobruk, as we've mentioned, in June 1942, and his next move is the Suez Canal. So he's advancing up to a position at which the British have got their last fortified stronghold, and this is the El Alamein position. It's quite interesting because it's a choke point. And the key point about a choke point, it's about 40 miles from the coast to the Qatara Depression.

你无法让装甲部队、摩托化部队或任何大规模武装力量穿越卡塔拉洼地。那里基本上都是沙丘。所以你必须通过这个40英里宽的缺口，而英国人已在此布下重兵。明白吗？这意味着隆美尔通常拥有的机动和侧翼包抄优势都将被抵消。

You can't move armor and motorized forces or any large scale armed forces through the Qatara Depression. It's basically sand dunes. So you've got to come through this 40 mile gap, which the British have heavily defended. Okay? And it's gonna mean that all the advantages that Rommel normally has of maneuver and outflanking are negated.

最终，他将不得不硬着头皮冲击这道铜墙铁壁，他能否成功突破呢？1942年7月爆发的第一场战役——第一次阿拉曼战役给出了答案。这是由接掌第八集团军指挥权的奥金莱克组织的防御战。他同时兼任总司令，但解除了原陆军指挥官里奇的职务。如今他实际掌控第八集团军，在此战中表现出色，但这仍不足以保住他的职位。

In the end, he's gonna have to batter his head against what is a brick wall, and will he be able to batter his way through? Well, the first battle takes place in July, of 1942, and that's known as the First Battle of El Alamein. It's a defensive action conducted by Orkulek, who's now taken over command of the eighth Army. He's also overall commander in chief, but he sacked his army commander, Ritchie. And he's now in operational control of the eighth Army and does very well in that battle, but it's not enough to save his bacon.

他很快被解除指挥权。丘吉尔亲赴北非与他会面后，强烈感觉他已精疲力竭，需要新鲜血液来接管。某种程度上是机缘巧合——因为最初并非如此安排——他组建了后来被称为北非梦之队的指挥班子。

He is relieved of command. Shortly after, there's very much a feeling from Churchill who goes over to North Africa, meets him, and thinks he's exhausted, and you need new blood. You need someone new to take over. And he puts in place more by luck than design because it wasn't the original intention. He puts in place what becomes the dream team in North Africa.

哈罗德·亚历山大出任总指挥官兼新任第八集团军司令，而蒙蒂——伯纳德·蒙哥马利原本并非第八集团军司令人选。最初获任的是绰号'扫射者'的戈特将军。但戈特在乘机赴任途中遭遇空难身亡，于是蒙蒂临危受命接掌了指挥权。

That's Harold Alexander as the overall commander and new eighth army commander, Monty, Bernard Montgomery, who was never intended to be the eighth army commander, a man called Gott got the command originally. Strafer Gott as he was known. But Gott dies in a plane crash. He's flying back to take command, literally on his way to take command, and he gets shot down by the Germans, and so Monty's given the job instead.

他还给我们配发了新装备，不是吗？

And he's also given us a new kit, isn't he?

蒙蒂在史学界的评价两极分化——并非所有历史学家都认可他。但通过在北非和西北欧战场的深入研究，我个人对他有了更多认同。许多史学家认为他是位幸运将军，比如他恰好在盟军物资与兵力开始占优时抵达北非战场。

Monty's known certainly for some historians who not all historians have a lot of time for him. I've got a bit more time for him actually having studied him not only in North Africa, but now in Northwest Europe. I've got a lot more time for him. He is known by a lot of historians as a lucky general. In other words, he arrived in North Africa at the right time because that's when the material and men imbalance really began to benefit the allies.

等到我们即将讨论的著名战役——第二次阿拉曼战役（尽管多数人简称为阿拉曼战役）打响时，蒙蒂已全面掌握两倍优势：兵力约20万对10万，坦克约千辆对德军的500辆，火炮数量同样如此。

And by the time the famous battle that we're gonna discuss in a moment comes along, that's the second battle of El Alamein, although a lot of people just call it the battle of El Alamein. By the time that battle takes place, he's basically got a two to one majority of everything. Men, about 200,000 men. Tanks, about a thousand tanks, the 500 Germans. And artillery pieces, the same thing.

他拥有的兵力是隆美尔的两倍。所以你可以说这是预料之中的结果，但我甚至不确定是否必然如此。丹，他做的另一件事也相当出名，但确实如此。他不仅善于训练士兵，还极为擅长提振士气。他亲自走访各个部队，分发香烟并告诉他们他坚信他们将赢得战斗，这已成为传奇。

He's got double what Rommel's got. So you could argue that it was a foregone conclusion, but I'm not even sure that's necessarily the case. The other thing he does, Dan, is reasonably well known, but it is true. He was a great trainer of men, but he was also great on men's morale. He made it his business to go out and meet all the individual units in person, famously handing out cigarettes and telling them that he was convinced they were gonna win the battle.

关于此时的第八集团军，我们需要记住的是它经历了太多挫折——进一步退两步。而这个人说，到此为止。我们将迎战下一场战役，因为在第二次阿拉曼战役前还有一场阿拉姆哈勒法战役，那是隆美尔突破苏伊士运河的最后机会。他在战前对士兵们说：我们誓死坚守此地。

And what we need to remember about the Eighth Army up to this point is it had so many setbacks. One step forward, two steps back. Here was a man who's saying, this ends now. We're gonna fight the next battle because there's a battle just prior to the second El Alamein battle called the Battle of Alam Halfa, which was the last opportunity for Rommel to break through to the Suez Canal. And he tells the men before they fight that battle, we die here.

绝不后退一步。

We're not going a step further.

焚毁所有撤退计划。

Burning all the plans for with further withdrawal.

顺便说，开罗方面同时也在烧毁密码本等物资，因为总司令部的人并不确信他能守住。但他本人坚信不疑，并成功说服了第八集团军足够多的人。

And meanwhile, by the way, they're burning codes and everything else in Cairo because the people at HQ are not so convinced he's gonna hold up. But he is utterly convinced, and he manages to convince enough people in the Eighth Army too.

隆美尔确实在阿拉姆哈勒法发动了最后攻势，但被击溃了，于是士兵们信心倍增。随后蒙蒂得以转守为攻。

And Rommel does launch this last assault at Alhamalfa. It is broken up, so people grow in confidence. And then Monty's able to switch the offensive.

是的。阿拉姆哈勒法战役发生在1942年8月，当时丘吉尔已极度不耐——他向来如此。你会发现他在二战各战区不断催促将领，但1942年末的北非尤甚。而我认为蒙哥马利的高明之处在于：他坚持没有充分准备绝不出击，必须等士兵训练完备、装备充足（尤其是坦克和火炮），因为他的核心战术就是火力压制。

Yeah. And meanwhile so Alham Helfa takes place at the August 1942, and Churchill's very impatient at this point. He always was. You you endlessly find him harassing commanders all across the different theaters of the Second World War, but nowhere more so than in North Africa in late nineteen forty two. And where Monty also comes out very well in my opinion is he's determined not to go until he's ready, until the men are properly trained up, until he's got enough kit, that's tanks and artillery in particular, because his main method of fighting a battle is just using firepower.

许多人批评他说，你并没有真正承担任何风险，所谓的战术机动在哪里？花哨的动作？不。那里没有花哨的动作，但那正是当时所需要的。卡弗后来成为陆军元帅，但当时他是第七装甲师的参谋长，他有一句精彩的话。

And a lot of people have criticized him and said, well, you know, you're not really taking any risks, and where's the maneuver? Flare. No. There's no flare there, but it was exactly what was needed at the time. There's a wonderful quote by Carver who goes on to be a field marshal later on in his career, but he's the chief of staff of the seventh Armored Division at the time.

他说，这正是我们需要的。我们不需要再遭遇挫折。我们需要一场精心策划的战斗，能够发挥我们所有的优势，实际上消除风险。而这正是发生的事情。即使在阿拉曼战役胜利之后，经过八天的艰苦战斗，隆美尔最终承认失败，未经最高指挥部命令就撤退了。

And he said, this is exactly what we needed. We didn't need another setback. We needed a battle that was properly planned, would take advantage of all the things we were good at, and actually take the risk out of it. And that's exactly what happened. Even after Alamein is won, after this eight day slogging match, and finally, Rommel admits defeat and withdraws without orders from the high command.

希特勒命令他坚守阵地，但他基本上违抗了希特勒的命令。有趣的是，从那时起，希特勒再也没有真正信任过他。当然，他没有被解职，但他基本上打破了自1930年代接管希特勒的卫队以来他们之间存在的纽带，随后他在波兰战役期间指挥了希特勒的野战司令部。他们关系相当亲密。我们记得隆美尔最终在1944年被迫自杀，因为他被牵连进炸弹阴谋，这某种程度上洗白了他对希特勒和纳粹的强烈支持。

Hitler's ordered him to stand fast, and he basically disobeys Hitler's orders. And from that point, interestingly enough, is never properly trusted by Hitler thereafter. He's not sacked, of course, but he, has basically broken this bond that's existed between him and Hitler since he took over his bodyguard effectively in the nineteen thirties, and then he was in command of his field headquarters during the Polish campaign. And they're quite close. I mean, we remember Rommel as a man who was ultimately forced to commit suicide in 1944 because he's been implicated in the bomb plot, and this somehow kind of whitewashes him of having really quite strong pro Hitler and pro Nazi feelings.

他从未加入纳粹党。这一点很重要，需要记录在案。但他是否崇拜希特勒？在事情开始变糟之前，他绝对是。

He was never a member of the Nazi party. It's important to put that on the record. But was he a admirer of Hitler? He absolutely was until things started to turn go pear shaped.

1942年10月，蒙哥马利发动了这场以火力为主导的巨大战役，直接突破德国和意大利的防线。这就是阿拉曼战役。这是一次成功。正如你所说，然后希特勒说，坚守阵地。隆美尔说，不。

And it's October 1942 that Montgomery launches this gigantic sort of firepower led battle to just smash his way through German and Italian lines. It's the Battle of El Alamein. It's a success. And as you say, so then Hitler says, Stand fast. Rommel says, No.

他转身撤退，现在又开始了沿着北非沙漠道路推进的另一个阶段。

And he turns, and you get another period now of advancing along this North African desert road.

是的。正是在这个时候，你会听到所有关于阿拉曼战役的著名名言。我们以前从未有过胜利，之后也从未有过失败。这是丘吉尔说的。你知道，这是开始还是结束？

Yeah. And and it's at this point, you would get all the wonderful famous quotes, of course, about El Alamein. We'd never had a victory before, and we never had a defeat after. That's from Churchill. You know, is this the beginning or the end?

不。但这是开始的结束。那是一个真正的转折点。当然，很多那些话都是事后才说的。但在当时，确实有一种感觉，随着他们在人力方面获得的优势，以及知道美国人即将从远方赶来救援。

No. But it's the end of the beginning. It was a real turning point. A lot of those quotes, of course, come after the event. But at the time, there was really a feeling that with the advantages they were now getting in terms of manpower and the knowledge that the Americans are about to ride to the rescue on the far side.

想象一下，丹。在这场战斗中，基本上是一方朝着敌人的领土前进，然后又折返。他们计划通过'火炬行动'，将隆美尔和他的意德军队夹在两军之间，这对他来说将是致命的。

Imagine this, Dan. So for all of this fighting, you've basically had one side moving towards the enemy's terrain and then coming back the other way. What they were planning with Operation Torch is you're gonna catch Rommel and his Italian German army in a vice between two armies, and that is gonna be fatal for him.

对丘吉尔来说，在美军大规模登陆北非另一端之前，能在埃及取得这场胜利是件好事，他们可以开始挤压敌军了。

And it's lovely for Churchill to have that win in Egypt before the Americans land in force at the other end, North Africa, and they can start just to squeeze them.

是的。我认为记住这一点真的很重要。那是绝对正确的。丘吉尔知道大势已定。当美国的资源和人力跟上节奏时——很可能在1943年年中，最迟1944年——联盟的格局将会改变。

Yeah. I think it's really important to remember, actually. That's absolutely true. Churchill knows the writing is on the wall. When American resources and manpower get up to speed, which they probably will by mid nineteen forty three, certainly by 1944, The alliance is gonna change.

在战略上他仍掌握主导权，部分原因是大多数资源——海军以及地面部队——都是英国和英联邦的。但这将会改变。有趣的是，当你观察北非的战斗时，是的，这是美国人首次面对相当强大的敌人。

He still holds the whip hand in terms of strategy partly because most of the resources, naval, but also the troops on the ground are British and Commonwealth. That is gonna change. But it's interesting when you when you look at the fighting in North Africa. Yes. It's the first opportunity for the Americans to come up against what is a pretty formidable foe.

那就是德国人。他们是在实战中学习。遭遇了一些挫折，我相信我们会谈到。但同样重要的是记住，在北非作战的大部分部队是英国和英联邦的，直到战役结束。我认为丘吉尔充分利用了这一点，特别是在他们决定下一步行动时，因为这是英美之间长期存在的战略分歧。

That's the Germans. They're learning on the job. There are a number of setbacks, which I'm sure we'll get on to. But it's also important to remember that most of the troops that are doing the fighting in North Africa are British and Commonwealth, and that's right up to the end of the campaign. And that's something I think that Churchill takes advantage of, particularly when they're trying to decide what to do next because it's a perennial problem battle between the Brits and the Americans.

我们什么时候进军西北欧？

When do we go into Northwest Europe?

您正在收听丹·斯诺的历史节目。请别走开，更多精彩内容即将呈现。大家好，本期丹·斯诺的历史节目由Opera Air浏览器赞助播出，这是首款以正念为核心设计的浏览器。

You listen to Dan Snow's history. Don't go anywhere. There's more to come. Hi, folks. This episode of Dan Snow's history is brought to you by Opera Air, the first browser with mindfulness at its core.

由Opera浏览器团队打造的Opera Air，以极简设计实现轻量化、极速且安全的浏览体验，内置广告拦截和追踪防护等隐私工具。其独特之处在于'正念优先'理念——可设置温和提醒来安排正念休息、伸展（我现在就需要做）或深呼吸，助您保持精力而非透支。内置广告拦截还能消除干扰专注任务，更有精选环境音效、低保真节拍甚至双耳节拍等声景，助您在浏览时提升专注力、创造力或放松身心。

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常言道'若墙壁能开口'。在《帷幔之间》播客中，我们专事挖掘历史门扉后的秘辛，尤其是帝王、王后、情妇、仆役等各色人等的闺帷轶事。从中世纪催情剂、致命的维多利亚化妆术，到儿童文学作家的风流韵事——我们百无禁忌。

As the saying goes, if these walls could talk. And on the Betwix the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history. Kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between. We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is off limits.

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但与此同时，当英国和英联邦军队开始将隆美尔赶回利比亚时，突然，这道霹雳落在了北非的另一端——'火炬行动'，摩洛哥、阿尔及利亚。德军原本已逼近苏伊士运河的繁忙区域，如今轴心国想必担忧会遭遇全面歼灭。局势在短短两周内就彻底逆转了，不是吗？

But for the meantime, as the British and Commonwealth troops are starting to chase Rommel back into Libya, suddenly, this thunderbolt lands at the other end of North Africa, Operation Torch, Morocco, Algeria, and now the Germans, having been on the well, within busy distance of Suez Canal, now presumably the Axis are worried about complete annihilation. It just flips, does it, in the space of a fortnight?

若从德国视角来看简直不可思议。瓦尔特·瓦尔利蒙特（Walter Warlimont）在其著作中描述11月是德军的灾难之月——他当时任德国国防军最高统帅部作战部副部长。当然，他同时暗指1918年11月的历史。

It's amazing if you think of it from the German perspective. November is described in, Walter Volumon. He was the deputy chief of operations at OKW, which is the German Armed Forces senior command, he writes November is the month of disaster for the German army. He's also referring to November in 1918, of course.

哦，我明白了。好的。

Oh, I see. Okay.

但他本质上是在说所有灾难都在此刻同时爆发。细想之下确实惊人：斯大林格勒战役标志着二战中德军东进的最远点，可谓达到了他们扩张的巅峰，就像潮水涨至最高标记线。

But he's basically saying this is when all the disasters happen at the same time. And it's extraordinary if you think about it. So we've got the Stalingrad campaign, which is the furthest point east that the German armed forces get in the Second World War. Okay? So they've got to their zenith, so to speak, their advancing watermark.

他们深入高加索地区夺取石油资源（正如我们早前讨论的），几乎触及苏伊士运河，真正意义上接近瘫痪西方盟军的临界点。然而局势骤然逆转：首先是阿拉曼战役改变了北非战局；两周后斯大林格勒的'天王星行动'，苏军突破两侧包围第六集团军，后续发展众所周知。

Their high watermark. They've gone deep into the Caucasus to get their hands on the oil as as we were discussing earlier, and they've also almost got to the Suez Canal, so they are within touching distance, really, of crippling the the western allies. And everything turns. First of all, you get the Alamein battle, which changes everything in North Africa. Then you get Stalingrad, Operation Uranus, which happens a couple of weeks later when the, Russians break through on either side of Stalingrad and encircle the sixth army, and we all know what happens next.

第三重打击是'火炬行动'。该行动将在隆美尔后方引入新的盟军部队，使其几乎陷入绝境——除非出现戏剧性转机。而这样的转机确实出现了。

And then thirdly, you get operation Torch. And operation Torch is going to introduce a new allied army on the far side of Rommel's position that is gonna make it almost impossible for him to survive unless unless something dramatic happens, and that something dramatic does happen.

那么，请告诉我当时究竟发生了什么戏剧性事件？

Well, tell me what dramatic things do happen at that point.

我在《突尼斯毕业》一书中开篇讲述了希特勒乘坐他的专列——特别列车Sonder Zug，从柏林南下慕尼黑的故事。他只是短暂前往上萨尔茨堡，却总带着整个指挥部随行。因此他身边全是国防军最高统帅部的人员，他的高级军事参谋团。就在11月8日凌晨的南下旅程中，他和参谋们突然接到如晴天霹雳般的消息。所有人都始料未及。

I start my TunisGrad book with the story of Hitler traveling on his train, his special train, the Sonder Zug, from Berlin down to Munich. He's just going to Obersalzberg for a little bit of time, and he always takes his headquarters with him. So he's got all his OKW people with him, his senior military staff. And on that journey down there, in the early hours of the November 8, he's given the news that hits him and his staff like a thunderclap. No one was expecting it.

美军已在北非登陆。他们当时没意识到英军也在场——因为参与'火炬行动'的部队都穿着美军制服，肩扛星条旗臂章。为何如此？因为他们不想刺激法国人。进入法属北非的关键战略目标之一，正是争取自1940年战败后国土被瓜分、但仍控制着维希政权及其殖民帝国的法国——盟军希望能争取维希加入西方阵营。

The Americans have landed in North Africa. They didn't realize the Brits are there as well, by the way, mainly because everyone involved in Operation Torch is wearing American uniform with an American stars of stripe on their shoulders. Why? Because they don't wanna upset the French. And one of the key strategic aims of getting into French North Africa is actually to bring the French who, since their defeat in 1940, their country, of course, has been partitioned, but the bit that's still under French control, Vichy, which still controls its empire, there's a feeling, can we bring Vichy in on the side of the Western allies?

这可能会彻底改变战局，也是另一个重要战略目标。

And this could be a a big game changer, and that was another of the strategic aims.

通常来说，让一群荷枪实弹的英国小伙踏上法国领土，可没法让法国人往积极方向转变。

The one thing that doesn't usually persuade the French of anything in a positive direction is to put a load of British lads with weapons on their territory.

没错。所以他们精心伪装成美军——虽然这伪装没持续多久。但希特勒得知美军登陆后立即问道：我们该如何应对？

Yeah. Hence the attempt to sub subterfuge very well. Americans. Which didn't last very long. But Hitler, of course, gets this information that the Americans have landed and says, what can we do about it?

实际上他们几乎无计可施，一方面因为这是维希法国地盘，另一方面由于距离太过遥远——这正是西方盟军刻意为之。从西西里岛和他们在利比亚仅存的据点出发，无论是调兵还是派遣空军都鞭长莫及。他们只能寄望于法军抵抗，但法军仅坚持了两天就投降了。

And, basically, the response is very little, partly because it's Vichy France and partly because the distance involved, and this was deliberate by the Western allies, the distance involved is too far away from Sicily and their remaining foothold in Libya to do anything about in terms of getting troops and air power over there. So they have got a hope that the French are gonna hold out, and the French are not gonna hold out for very long. Just two days.

确实惊人。短短两天内——你看这段时期的各类地图就会发现，人们总搞不清该如何标注北非的维希控制区。它本质上算是轴心国阵营吧？虽然我们称其为'维希法国'，但法国当时算是德国盟友，或者说突然变得友好了？

Right. So extraordinary. Within two days, this you always see different maps of this period. No one ever knows how to color in the Vichy bit of North Africa because, like, it's Axis aligned territory, isn't it, really? France is in a Vichy France, we call them, but France is an ally of Germany, you say, or suddenly friendly?

没错，这是个很好的观点。从技术上讲他们是中立的，丹，但我们都知道他们承受着德国的巨大压力和影响。如果德国人想要他们做些什么——比如在这次入侵中，一方面对盟军关闭港口和机场，另一方面为轴心国军队开放港口和机场——尽管作为中立国他们本不该这么做，但他们还是会照做。在'火炬行动'中这两种情况都发生了，因为一方面，当地法国指挥官确实与盟军交战了一段时间，随后意识到大势已去。

Yeah. It's a very good point. They're technically neutral, Dan, but we all know that they were under extreme pressure and influence of the Germans. If the Germans wanted them to do something, which is, in the case of this invasion, close their ports, close their airfields on the one hand to the Allies, or on the other hand, open their ports and their airfields to the Axis armed forces, which technically, of course, they shouldn't have done as a neutral power, they were going to do it. And you have both things playing out in Operation Torch because on the one hand, the local French commanders do fight the allies for a while, and then they realize the game's up.

他们某种程度上是被说服的，因为法国军队中有一部分人自然是亲盟军的。自由法国军队正从非洲更深处赶来。但与此同时，他们也准备允许足够多的轴心国军队进入法属北非未被盟军攻击的三分之一殖民地——那里因深入地中海腹地，受到来自西西里和意大利的海空力量保护。这个地方就是突尼斯。希特勒几乎是在火车旅途中做出了这个关键决定：我们必须保住法属北非。

And they're kind of persuaded because there are a certain number of people in the French armed forces who are, of course, pro allied. The free French forces are coming up from deeper into Africa. But at the same time, they are prepared to allow enough Axis forces into the third of the French colonies in French North Africa, which hadn't been attacked by the Western allies because it's too deep into the Mediterranean, and it's protected by air power and sea power from Sicily and Italy. And that, of course, is Tunisia. So it's that crucial decision that Hitler makes almost on that train journey in which he says, we must protect French North Africa.

尽可能多地向突尼斯派遣部队。这将起到双重作用：既能对抗刚在法属北非其他地区登陆的西方盟军，又能为隆美尔的部队提供补给线，避免其陷入孤立。

Get as many troops as you can into Tunisia. That will play a dual role. They will be able to combat the Western allies who've just landed at the rest of French North Africa. And, also, this will be a supply route for Rommel's forces. So it'll prevent Rommel's forces being isolated.

但真正有趣的问题是：他准备冒多大的险？愿意往北非派多少部队？要知道在此之前他派出的兵力并不多。

But the really interesting question is how big a gamble is he prepared to take? How many troops is he prepared to send to North Africa? If you think up to this point, he hasn't sent many.

他们在胜势时他反而不肯派兵。

He wouldn't send them when they were winning.

确实。仔细想想非常不可思议。他的一位高级顾问——我想是OKW的作战部长约德尔——有句名言：法属北非是欧洲的玻璃眼。

I know. It's really extraordinary when when you think of it. There's a great quote by one of his senior advisers. I think it's Yodel, who's the operations chief at OKW. He describes French North Africa as the glassy of Europe.

这是外围堡垒。但如果让敌人而非亲纳粹的中立国掌控这里，就等于让他们在地中海畅行无阻。更重要的是，墨索里尼极可能因此退出战争。我认为这才是希特勒最担心的——他想着如果盟军控制北非赶走意大利人，接下来就是西西里和意大利本土，届时他将失去一个重要盟友。

This is the outer bastion. But if you allow the enemy to get their hands on it as opposed to a Nazi leaning neutral power, you give them free latitude of the Mediterranean. And more importantly, there's a big danger that Mussolini is gonna be knocked out of the war. I think that was really uppermost in Hitler's mind. He's thinking if the Western allies can get control of North Africa and kick the Italians out, it's gonna be Sicily and Italy next, and I'm gonna lose one of my major allies.

短短几周内，他们的处境就从‘我们在北非仍占据非常有利的位置，已兵临运河大门’，急转直下到‘天啊，法属北非沦陷了。我们正面临生死存亡的危机，甚至要讨论意大利被踢出战争的可能性’。

So in the space of a couple of weeks, they go from, we are still in a very strong position in North Africa. We're at the gates of the canal to, oh my goodness. French North Africa has fallen. We are now in an existential crisis. We're talking about Italy being knocked out of the war.

没错。丹，你知道的，关于二战重大转折点的争论很多。有人认为是在德军从莫斯科撤退时，甚至有人觉得从决定入侵苏联那一刻就注定了。但在我看来，到1942年11月，局势对德国人——也包括日本人，如果我们纵观全局的话——已无可挽回地逆转。日军此时正深陷瓜达尔卡纳尔岛的拉锯战，这不仅是陆战...

Yeah. I mean, lots of people debate when the big turning points of the Second World War are, Dan, as you know. Some people say when he's turned back from Moscow. Some people even say when he decided to invade the Soviet Union in the first place. But in my mind, it's pretty clear that by November 1942, things have turned irreparably for the Germans, but also the Japanese, if we wanna take the big picture of the war, are involved in this to and fro struggle for Guadalcanal, which is not just a a land battle.

更是一场海战。那里爆发了多次海军行动。斯大林格勒、突尼斯（最终被称为‘突尼斯陷阱’，因为德国公众认为其灾难程度不亚于斯大林格勒）和瓜达尔卡纳尔——这三场同时进行的战役，标志着轴心国命运的彻底转折。

It's also a sea battle. A number of naval actions are fought there. And these three actions all happening at the same time, Stalingrad, Tunisia, which ultimately is called Tunisgrab because it's perceived by the German public as being as big a disaster as Stalingrad, and Guadalcanal. This is the moment that everything changes for the Axis powers.

这很惊人，不是吗？详细说说：轴心国军队正涌入突尼斯，试图堵住堤坝上的致命缺口。但希特勒投入了多少兵力？考虑到东线已出现生存危机，他最终向北非派遣了多少部队？

It's amazing, isn't it? Take me through. So we got Axis forces flooding into Tunisia, trying to plug a catastrophic hole in the dam. But how many forces does hit? Given that he's got an existential crisis on the Eastern Front now, how many forces does he end up sending to North America?

最终会达到25万兵力。当然这还不包括伤亡数字。所以他实际派遣的总兵力——包括已在当地的部队——大约有35万人。

Eventually, there'll be quarter of a million troops there. Of course, that doesn't take account of casualty. So he's probably gonna send in total, but this, of course, includes some of the guys who are already there, about 350,000 troops.

索尔，如果他在1941年就这么做，真的可能改变二战的进程。

And if he'd done that, Saul, in the '41, that could really have changed the course of the Second World War.

完全正确。虽然我不太喜欢假设历史，但这个推论确实值得深究。因为在我看来很明显，当丘吉尔主张进军北非时——尽管有些美国人认为他只是在保卫大英帝国——他其实把握住了全局。

Yeah. Totally right. I mean, I'm not a great fan of counterfactuals, but this is one I really do like getting my teeth into because it seems so obvious to me that when you look at the kind of arguments that Churchill was giving for going into North Africa and, there were some Americans thinking, well, he's just defending the British empire. No. He saw the big picture.

他洞悉万物如何环环相扣。他明白海上航线、制海权与关键资源的掌控才是赢得战争的关键——不是单场战役的胜负，甚至不是士兵间的消耗战，而是逐步扼杀敌人获取足够资源以维持战争的能力。

He saw how everything fitted together. He saw how sea lanes and sea power and control of vital resources are what wins wars. Not individual battles, not even the wastage of soldiers against soldiers. It's about slowly constricting the ability of your enemy to get enough resources so that he can keep going.

听你这么说，我突然想到，唯一认同丘吉尔的人其实是希特勒——因为他孤注一掷地想保住北非。

Well, as you're saying that, I'm thinking, turns out the one person who did agree with Churchill was Hitler because he bet the farm on trying to hold on to North Africa.

确实。他那时确实如此，但可以说为时已晚。如果他们当时有全局思维，隆美尔1941年的推进本该与通过苏联进攻高加索的全力尝试同步。正如我之前提到的，这些大多是事后诸葛亮式的空想。在理想情况下...

Yeah. He did at this point, but you could say it's too late. Mean, if they'd been if they'd been joined up thinking, Dan, he would have coincided the drive by Rommel in 1941 with a serious attempt to get to the Caucasus through the Soviet Union. And there was this kind of vague thinking in as I've mentioned before, I think it was a lot of it was after the event kind of thinking, yes. It in an ideal world.

当时还有人讨论过从黎凡特南下，试图从两侧封锁苏伊士运河，但从未被认真对待。这再次印证了希特勒——其实大多数德国人都如此——只习惯大陆思维。别忘了对他而言这也是意识形态战争，他真正的两大敌人是马克思主义和犹太人。

Was There also talk about coming down through the Levant at one stage and somehow restricting the the Suez Canal from both sides, but never really taken seriously. And, again, I think that comes back to the fact that Hitler, as indeed most Germans are, think in continental terms. This is also an ideological war for him. We mustn't forget. He's got two big enemies, really, and one is Marxism and the other are the Jews.

他满脑子想着在欧洲大陆解决这些问题。若能顺便获取些殖民地固然好，但他始终未能看清全局——我认为这终将导致他的覆灭。

And he's thinking about dealing with them on the continent. If he can get a few colonies here or there and all well and good, he's not really seeing the big picture, I think in the end, that's gonna prove to be fatal for him.

如果仇恨马克思主义者和犹太人，入侵土耳其实在说不通。

If you hate Marxists and Jews, it doesn't make much sense to invade Turkey.

没错。简直南辕北辙。其实有过那么一阵子，他被下属说服考虑与犹太人达成协议——把他们都送往巴勒斯坦。这是在决定实施大屠杀前，他们那些疯狂念头之一。由于未能击败英国且德国海路被封锁，他们确实难以...（我并非为德国人开脱，但这是他们当时的真实考量）

No. Yeah. Exactly right. You know, almost the opposite. There was a moment when, of course, he's thinking or he's convinced by some of his subordinates that doing some kind of deal over sending all the Jews to Palestine, and that was one of the kind of nutty ideas they had in the back of their head before they decided to murder everyone because actually the failure to defeat Britain and the fact that Germany was constricted in terms of sea lanes made it very difficult for them to then and I'm not excusing the Germans by making this point, but it is a point that they're thinking, yeah.

也许我们可以把他们送往马达加斯加。也许我们可以把他们送往巴勒斯坦。当然，所有这些选项最终都被一一否决了。

Maybe we can send them to Madagascar. Maybe we can send them to Palestine. And, of course, all those options were eventually closed off.

让我们回到突尼斯战场。现在隆美尔正带着大量增援部队穿过利比亚撤退。他肯定咒骂过这些增援来得太迟——在他错失决定性战机之后才抵达。总之，援军正源源不断地涌入。

Let's go back to Tunisia. So we've got Rommel is retreating now through Libya. He's got vast amounts of reinforcements. He must have cursed all these reinforcements arriving so long after his decisive opportunity he had. Anyway, they're all flooding in.

这是对轴心国包围圈的缓慢碾压吗？是否存在他试图建立的关键防线或决定性时刻？

Is it a slow crushing of this Axis pocket? Are there key moments or a key perimeter he tries to establish?

没错。你得暂时把两个战区看作独立战场。实际上，希特勒派去防守突尼斯的大部分部队都基于他那个疯狂念头——他们能一路打到卡萨布兰卡。他以为我们能夺回整个法属北非。不过无论如何，先守住突尼斯再说。

Yeah. I mean, you need to think of the two theaters as separate for a period of time. So in effect, most of the troops that are sent by Hitler to defend Tunisia he's and got this mad idea they're gonna get all the way to Casablanca. He thinks we can retake the whole of French North Africa. But, anyway, let's defend Tunisia first.

这支队伍最终由冯·阿尼姆指挥。他是陆军大将，比隆美尔低一级。他在东线战场成名，被视为稳健可靠的典型容克贵族军官。派往北非的新部队大多归他调遣。

This is a force that eventually comes under the command of Von Arnim. He's a colonel general, so one rank below Rommel. He's made his name on the Eastern Front. He's seen as a safe pair of hands, typical kind of Junker aristocratic German army officer. Most of the new guys going to North Africa come under his command.

所以尽管隆美尔想着'北非德意联军是增多了'，但他仍未能掌握主力。最终他将短暂统领所谓的非洲集团军——这是首次有足够兵力配得上集团军称号。但在此期间，他主要指挥装甲军团对抗第八集团军，而冯·阿尼姆麾下新成立的第五装甲军团则在突尼斯对抗登陆的盟军，那里有美军第二军。

So although Rommel's thinking, yeah, there are more German and Italian troops in North Africa, he still doesn't have the lion's share of them. Eventually, he's gonna be given very briefly command of what's known as army group Africa. So the first time there's actually been enough troops to justify calling it an army group. But in the meanwhile, he's gonna be controlling his panzer army, and that's chiefly up against the eighth army, while this new force, this new fifth panzer army, as it was known under Von Arnim, is fighting in Tunisia against the allied forces that have landed. There are some Americans there, the second American corps.

还有些法国部队在作战，但战斗力不强。他们从维希法国倒戈到英国这边。此外还有支英国军队，美军和法军都在其作战指挥之下，称为第一集团军，由安德森将军统领——我打赌你没听过这个名字，丹。就算听过，估计也不了解他。

There are some French guys there fighting, not very effective forces. They've come over from Vichy, France over to the British side. And there is also is a British army, which the Americans or the French come under overall operational control, and that's known as the first army commanded by a guy I bet you've never heard of, Dan. Or if you have, you won't know much about him. A guy called general Anderson.

从没听说过他。

Never heard of him.

从没听说过他。

Never heard of him.

他就是那个，你知道的，失踪的军团指挥官。肯尼斯·安德森，简单提一句，是负责训练第二军团的人，也就是英国第二军团，在诺曼底战役之前。英国第二军团是D日当天英军的主要突击力量，由邓普西指挥，他是蒙哥马利的门徒之一。而安德森本人是个相当平庸、不起眼的角色。

He's the man where, you know, the lost army commander. Kenneth Anderson, just as a quick aside, was the guy who trained up second army, that's the British second army, before the Normandy campaign. Now British second army is the main British striking force on D Day. It's under the command of Dempsey, who's one of Monty's acolytes, one of his proteges. And Anderson was a pretty dure, unimpressive specimen.

他能得到这个职位只是因为其他几位候选人——包括亚历克斯、亚历山大和蒙哥马利——都被跳过了第一军团的指挥权。他缓慢地向突尼斯推进。所谓的'突尼斯竞速'发生在1942年底，盟军试图赶在轴心国增援到达前夺取突尼斯并驱逐那里的少量敌军。但他们输掉了这场竞赛。因此在突尼斯战役的前四五个月里，当盟军从阿尔及利亚和摩洛哥向突尼斯战场推进时，几乎所有的胜利都属于轴心国。

He only gets the job because various other people have been passed over for command of first army, including, interestingly enough, Alex, Alexander, and Monty. And he's kind of plodding his way forward into Tunis. The so called race for Tunis, which happens towards the end of 1942, is an attempt by the allies to get to Tunis and force out the few Axis forces that arrive there before more reinforcements can come. They lose that race. So it's interesting for the first four or five months of the Tunisian campaign, as the allies advance from Algeria and Morocco towards the battlefield in Tunisia, those are almost all Axis victories.

虽然只是战术性胜利，确实。他们并未歼灭大量敌军，但成功击退了针对他们的进攻。空降行动在进行中，各种事件层出不穷，场面相当戏剧化。

Tactical victories, it's true. They don't smash and defeat any huge number of forces, but they defeat commander attacks against them. The parachute drops going on. There's all kinds of stuff. I mean, there's a lot of drama going on.

弗罗斯特上校——你们会从阿纳姆战役和那座著名的桥的故事中知道他——当时在北非指挥一个伞兵营。他的营在一次近乎疯狂的突袭突尼斯行动中几乎全军覆没。但整体而言，盟军试图在轴心国增援到达前夺取突尼斯的行动失败了。

Colonel Frost, who you'll know from the Arnhem story and the famous Colonel Frost of the bridge, he's a colonel commanding a battalion of paratroopers in North Africa. His battalion almost gets completely wiped out, actually, in a in a slightly madcap attempt to get to Tunis. But the broad beats of the story is that the attempt to get to Tunis before they can bring in enough Axis reinforcements is a failure.

所以这是1942年12月到1943年1月期间的事。好吧。这就是英国人开始抱怨'该死的，这些美国人根本不会打仗'，导致盟军之间产生摩擦的时期吗？

So this is through December 1942 into January. Okay. And is this where you get a bit of a rep the Brits going, oh, bloody hell. These Americans can't fight, and bit of friction between the allies.

对美国人在声誉上的真正灾难发生在1943年2月，而这源于盟军的成功。蒙蒂已将隆美尔的部队一路逼退至突尼斯南部。与此同时，在突尼斯北部，冯·阿纳集结了他的部队，但他们实际控制的仅是突尼斯的沿海平原地区。从北部的突尼斯和比塞大港口，一直到突尼斯南部，形成了一条连贯的防线。如今这两支军队已经会师。

The real disaster in reputational terms for the Americans comes in February 1943, and it comes as a result of allied success. So Monty's managed to push Rommel's forces all the way back to Southern Tunisia. Meanwhile, in Northern Tunisia, Von Arna's built up his forces, but they're really only controlling what is the coastal plain in Tunisia. And there's an unbroken line all the way from Tunis and Berserta, those ports in the North, all the way to the Southern Tunisia. So now these two armies have united.

他们虽不在同一作战指挥序列下，但各自为战。

They're not under the same operational control list, but both fighting separately.

所以蒙蒂与参与登陆行动的所有部队汇合了

So Monti's joined up with all the people that landed in operation

实际上他们尚未会师，尽管德意联军已经实现联动。因此在某种意义上，轴心国部队占据了优势。正如我们军事史学家常说的，他们正在实施内线作战。

They haven't actually linked hands yet, although the Germans, Italian forces have. So in a sense, you've got advantage to the Axis forces. They're operating, as we love to say in, military historians, they're operating on interior lines.

德国人对此非常擅长。

The Germans are very good at that.

因此他们在战场机动方面具有优势，并制定出这个相当有效的计划——准备逐个击破两支正在靠拢但尚未会师的盟军：我之前提到的安德森的第一集团军和蒙蒂的第八集团军。他们差点就成功实现了这个各个击破的战术。

So so they've got an advantage in terms of moving from one part of the battlefield to the other, and they come up with this really quite effective plan that they are gonna defeat the two converging Allied armies, the first Army, which was Anderson's, as I mentioned, and Monty's eighth Army that are trying to link up but haven't yet done so. They are going to defeat them in detail, basically defeat them one after another, and they come quite close to doing

这简直是德国军事史上亘古不变的经典战术——在包围圈中左右突击，几乎歼灭所有围困之敌

It's a story as old as time when it comes to German military. Dash from flank to flank, almost defeating all of your enemies that crowd around

你。我对突尼斯战役的看法在很多方面感到相当矛盾。我的意思是，我们不应该戴着玫瑰色的眼镜看待它。我已经提到过，罗马人是一个比历史所允许的更为模糊的角色，然而他们进行了一场相对公平的战斗。战场上很少有人被随意枪杀，也很少有暴行发生。

you. I feel in many ways quite torn about the way I I look at the Tunisian campaign. I mean, we shouldn't, you know, look at it with rose tinted glasses. I've already mentioned the fact that Roman was a much more ambiguous character than I think history has really allowed him to be, and yet they fought a relatively fair fight. There were very few people shot out of hand on the battlefield, very few atrocities being committed.

那是一场相对公平的战斗。这不是宣传。双方的士兵都这么认为。这是一场艰苦的战斗，但也是一场相对公平的战斗。而德国人在很多情况下表现得非常出色。

It was a relatively fair fight. That is not, propaganda. Soldiers on both sides felt that. It was a tough fight, but it was a relatively fair fight. And the Germans, in many cases, do very well.

为什么？因为他们在那里有很多经验丰富的部队。他们有在沙漠战争中证明了自己的人，也有从东线战场调来的战士。他们有很多非常优秀的人，尤其是他们的装甲部队，他们将给美国人带来相当严重的打击。突尼斯战役最引人入胜的地方，并不是美国人在西迪布济德和凯瑟琳山口等地战败所获得的坏名声。

Why? Because they've got a lot of veteran troops there. They've got people who've proven themselves in the desert warfare, but also, people that have been coming from the fighting on the Eastern Front. They've got a lot of very good people, particularly their armored forces, and they are going to bloody the American noses quite severely. What's fascinating about the Tunisian campaign is not so much the bad reputation the Americans get for defeat at places like Sidi Bouzid and Kasserine Pass.

而是他们从失败中恢复的速度有多快，丹。美国人非常善于从糟糕的经历中学习。而且，他们有一些人开始崭露头角，这些人将成为二战中最优秀的美国指挥官。我指的是像巴顿、布拉德利这样的人，当然还有艾克。所以，如果你想想那些最终将在西北欧承担大部分指挥重任的人——蒙蒂和我刚才提到的三位美国指挥官，邓普西也在那里——他们都是在北非证明了自己的能力。

It's how quickly they come back from that, Dan. They're they're great learners of bad experiences, the Americans. And it helps that they've got some of the people who are gonna be the finest American commanders of the Second World War beginning to earn their stripes. And I'm talking about people like Patton and people like Bradley and, of course, Ike. So if you think about all those people who ultimately in Northwest Europe are gonna do most of the heavy lifting in terms of command, Monty and those three American commanders I've just mentioned, Dempsey is also there, All of them earned their stripes in North Africa.

你正在收听丹·斯诺的历史节目。想想我们这里的海报。还有更多内容即将到来。

You listen to Dan Snow's history. Think of our posters here. There's more coming.

嗨，这里是诺克斯，来自诺克斯和杰米的POPCAST。也许像我们POPCAST的听众一样，你也认识一些曾经吸烟或使用电子烟的人。而ZYN似乎是大家都在谈论的产品，因为有很多好的理由可以转向ZYN尼古丁袋。理由包括ZYN尼古丁袋仍然是美国无烟、免提尼古丁满足的首选产品。你可以从10种口味中选择，每种口味都有3毫克或6毫克可选。

Hi, this is Knox from the POPCAST with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the POPCAST, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And ZYN is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to ZYN nicotine pouches. Reasons like ZYN nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke free, hands free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six mg.

访问zen.com/find，查找你附近有售ZYN的商店。警告：本产品含有尼古丁。尼古丁是一种成瘾性化学物质。

Check out zen.com/ find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

俗话说，如果这些墙壁能开口说话。而在《Betwix the Sheets》播客中，我们的使命就是揭开历史中那些紧闭门扉后的秘密，尤其是帝王、王后、情妇、仆人等各色人等的闺房秘事。我们还会深入探讨中世纪催情剂、致命的维多利亚时代化妆程序，以及备受喜爱的儿童文学作家们的风流韵事。这里百无禁忌。

As the saying goes, if these walls could talk. And on the Betwix the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors, and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history. Kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between. We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is off limits.

换句话说，这是历史中最精彩的部分，由我——凯特·李斯特博士为您呈现。每周两次收听《Betwixt the Sheets：社会性丑闻史》，无论您通过何种平台获取播客内容。本节目由屡获殊荣的History Hit电台为您呈现。

In other words, it s the best bits of history with me, Doctor Kate Lister. Listen to Betwixt the The History of Sex Scandal in Society twice a week, every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit.

你会如何描述这场战斗？你提到了西迪布济德，提到了凯瑟琳山口。这只是盟军试图推进却遭遇挫败吗？

How would you characterize this fighting? You mentioned, you know, Sidi Bouzid. You mentioned Kasserine Pass. Is this just allies attempt to advance? They get a bloody nose.

在这些阶段，轴心国是否在全力反攻，试图取得实质性进展？

At these stages, they're a big Axis attempt to sort of counterattack and and make serious advances themselves?

隆美尔认为这是重大战机贻误。他当时向 superiors 解释并事后撰写的计划是——这很符合隆美尔的风格——我将突破突尼斯中部山区脆弱的防御外壳。想象突尼斯地形：两条山脉从北部呈倒V字延伸，盟军正防守这些山脉要隘。

Rommel feels it's a real missed opportunity. His plan, as he explained to his superiors at the time and then wrote about afterwards, was I'm going to and this is typical Rommel. I'm going to drive through the weak crust of the defensive positions in the mountains of Central Tunisia. If you think about the geography of Tunisia, you've basically got two mountain ranges coming from the north in an inverted v, and the allies are defending both of those mountain ranges. They're effectively defending the passes.

因此隆美尔的计划是连续突破两道山口，直插英国第一集团军后方，包括美军阵地。他预计能一路推进至海岸，彻底击溃安德森的部队。但问题在于他此时没有统一指挥权，必须争取冯·阿尼姆配合——而由于将帅相忌，这根本无法实现。最终地中海战区德军总指挥凯塞林对隆美尔表示：你的计划过于野心勃勃。

And so Rommel's plan is to break through not just one pass, but the second pass. And by that point, he's gonna be into the rear area of the British first army, including the American position. And he reckons he can drive all the way up to the coast and effectively defeat Anderson's army in total. But the problem he's got is he doesn't have unified command at this point, so he's having to do this with Von Arnhem's cooperation, and he's not gonna get it, basically, because they are jealous of each other. And eventually, Kesselring, who is our overall command, he's the overall German commander in the Mediterranean, says to Rommel, your plans are too ambitious.

我要缩减行动规模。隆美尔至死（事实上一年后他就离世了）都坚信这是重大战略失误。因将进攻纵深限定在勒凯夫而非更深远区域，他错失了包抄盟军全部预备阵地的良机。实际上这反而使其部队撞上正从北方南下的美英预备军——这正是后来发生的战况。所以隆美尔始终认为此乃贻误战机。

I'm going to reduce them in scope. And Rommel always believes or believed to his dying day, which is not gonna be that much later, a year later, that this was a real missed opportunity. And by reducing the depth of his advance to a location called Le Keth as opposed to much deeper, he's gonna lose the opportunity to get right behind all the, reserve positions. And, actually, it's just gonna push him towards the American and British reserves who are coming down from the North, which is exactly what happened. So Rommel believes it was a real missed opportunity.

我认为，如果你看看人力上的悬殊差距以及美国人在凯塞林和西迪布济德早期战败后恢复的速度，实际上，你会得出结论，他根本不可能赢得那场战斗。

I think if you look at the disparity in manpower and the speed with which the Americans recover from the early shocks of these defeats at Kasserine and Sidi Bouzid, actually, you come to the conclusion he was never gonna win that that battle.

相反，局势只是更加紧张了。

And instead, the just tightens.

绞索正在收紧，而且还有很多来回拉锯。显然，由于我们只有相对较短的时间来讨论整个北非战役，不得不省略很多内容。还有许多其他关键战役，实际上相当著名的战役，其中许多是由蒙哥马利对阵隆美尔及其继任者进行的。有趣的是，隆美尔在3月初最后一次试图突破第八集团军失败后——那是梅德宁战役——他实际上是被数量极其庞大且部署得当的反坦克炮以及蒙蒂的装甲部队击败的。

The noose tightens, and there's a lot more to ing and fro ing. I mean, obviously, it goes without saying that only having a a, you know, a relatively short period of time to talk about the whole North African campaign, we have to miss out a lot. There are a lot of other key battles and quite famous battles, actually, many of which were fought by Montgomery against Rommel and then Rommel's successors. Because interestingly, Rommel, in early March, after he has been defeated in his last attempt to break eighth Army, and that's the battle of Medellin. He's effectively defeated by incredibly large number of well sighted anti tank guns, but also Monty's armor.

他在3月初的梅德宁战役中失败，意识到大势已去，于是飞往希特勒的指挥部——当时指挥部实际上位于乌克兰的文尼察，即所谓的狼穴总部。他告诉希特勒游戏结束了，你可以想象这不会有好结果。他说，看，最后的机会是把这些老兵撤出来。让他们撤出来。

He's defeated at Medellin in early March and realizes the game's up and so flies to Hitler's headquarters, which actually at the time were in Ukraine at Venice, the so called werewolf headquarters. And he tells Hitler the game's up, and you can imagine this is not gonna go down well. He says, look. Last chance is to get these veteran guys out. Get them out.

他们可以用来保卫南欧。还有更多战斗要打。让我们着眼长远。希特勒不接受这个建议。他认为这是失败主义言论。

They can be used to defend Southern Europe. There's a lot more fighting to come. Let's play the long game here. Hitler's not having any of that. He sees this defeatist talk.

他没有解雇隆美尔，但坚持让他去疗养院——不是为了精神治疗，而是因为他的健康状况一直很差。实际上，希特勒将他排除在游戏之外。那是隆美尔在北非的最后时刻。当然，他主要与北非联系在一起。那是他对战役的最后贡献。

He doesn't sack Rommel, but he insists on him going to a sanitarium, not for mental treatment, but because his health's been very bad up to this point. And he effectively takes him out of the game. And that is the last moment that Rommel is present in North Africa. He's always associated, of course, chiefly with North Africa. That's the last contribution he makes to the campaign.

从那时起，随着这两支军队缓慢但确实地压缩剩余的轴心国部队，局势逐渐走向终结。但他们仍有大量兵力，我认为关键时刻可能是1943年4月初，当时第一集团军与第八集团军会师。那一刻，游戏真的结束了。

And it's a slow death from that point on as these two armies slowly but surely constrict the remaining Axis forces. But there are still a lot of them, and I think the key moment probably is early April nineteen forty three when the first army joins hands with the eighth army. Right. And that is the moment at which the game's really up

关于这一点。所以这就是那个时刻。现在盟军确实已经，嗯，包围了轴心国在北非的部队。

for this. So this is that moment. So now the allies have truly, well, encircled Exactly. Encircled Axis forces in North Africa.

是的。而且还需要六周时间才能彻底结束。顺便说一句，我在研究突尼斯格拉德战役时发现一个有趣的细节——那两支军队会师后的第二天，轴心国部队自然如你所料正在撤退。正是在这次撤退中，一位后来历史闻名但当时仅是第十装甲师作战参谋的人物，克劳斯·冯·施陶芬贝格，在一次空袭中身负重伤。他当时正乘坐指挥车。

Yeah. And it's gonna take another six weeks to finish it off. By the way, one fascinating codus I I loved when I was researching Tunisgrad is that a day after those two armies joined forces, the Axis, of course, are withdrawing as you imagine they would be. And it's during that withdrawal that someone who, of course, is very famous to history, but at the time was operations officer for the tenth Panzer Division, a man called Klaus von Stauffenberg, is very badly wounded in an air attack. He's in a staff car.

他试图指挥部队撤退。典型的施陶芬贝格作风，勇敢、精明且能力出众的参谋军官。他伤势极重，失去了一只眼睛、一只手和另一只手上的三根手指，基本上只剩两根手指可用。这为何重要？

He's trying to direct the withdrawal of his division. Typical Stauffenberg, very brave, very clever, very capable staff officer. He's so badly injured that he loses one of his eyes, one of his hands, and three fingers in his other hand. So he's basically left with two digits. Why does this matter?

因为当他试图安装刺杀希特勒的炸弹时，只能用这两根手指操作。这被认为是未能同时引爆两组炸药的原因之一。最终导致7月20日那颗炸弹的爆炸威力不足，尽管若非被木桌阻挡本可致命。诸多不幸巧合中，突尼斯战役竟微妙影响了希特勒的存亡。

Because when he's trying to prime the bomb that will kill Hitler, he hopes He only has two fingers to do it, and this is given as one of the reasons why he doesn't prime both blocks of explosive. And therefore, that bomb that goes off on the July 20 doesn't create a big enough explosion to kill Hitler, although it could have done if it wasn't put behind a piece of wood. So lots of bad luck involved, but it is fascinating that the Tunisian campaign does play a little bit of a part in Hitler's survival.

这再次印证了希特勒严禁撤退的作风。他最终有组织任何撤离吗？

Again, it's just one of these stories of Hitler refusing to allow any withdrawals. Does he evacuate anybody at the end?

他们曾计划撤离所谓'技术专家'——其实就是类似斯大林格勒战役中的技术骨干，即高级军官。但该计划从未实施，主要因为盟军海军专门部署了拦截行动。

There's a plan to get what they call the technicians out. You know? These are these are the Stalingrad technicians. Yeah. The technicians and they're effectively the senior people, and it's never put into place, mainly because the Western allies, particularly their naval force, have an operation that is geared to interdict anything that's coming across.

盟军大规模海空行动彻底封锁了撤退路线。此前未提及的是：轴心国在突尼斯战役初期占优的重要原因在于制空权。但随着盟军增派战机并推进前线机场，这种优势逐渐丧失。当德意联军为时已晚地试图撤退时，盟军已掌握绝对制空权和制海权，对方毫无撤离机会。试想若能撤出25万军队（其中过半是德军精锐）会怎样...

So both ships and planes are knocked out of the sky and knocked out of the sea by a huge allied operation, which really I mean, one of the points I didn't make earlier on is that one of the reasons the Axis have so much success in the early stages of the Tunisian campaign is they have dominance in the air. And this slowly but surely has eroded as the Western allies bring in more planes, and they establish airfields closer to the front. And so by the time the Germans and the Italians are trying to withdraw far too late, of course, there is complete air superiority and also superiority at sea, and there's really no opportunity for them to get anyone out. But imagine what they could have done with that. 250,000, about a half of them, maybe slightly more, are German troops, but these are veteran soldiers.

这些都是他们最精锐的人员。

These are some of the best people they've got.

于是他们退入后方，直接投降了，被俘虏了。

And so they go into the back. They just surrender. They're captured.

大约15名将军，所有师级指挥官，你知道的，德军一些最精锐的作战部队都被成建制俘虏。他们实际上重建了许多这样的师，但当然，所有老兵都在那里被俘。冯·阿尼姆被俘，他所有的高级指挥官也被俘。意大利人表现相当出色。

Something like 15 generals, all the divisional commanders, you know, some of the best fighting formations in the German army are taken in the bag. They reconstitute a lot of these divisions, actually, but, of course, all the veterans are taken there. Von Arnhem is captured. All his senior commanders are captured. The Italians do very well.

我得为意大利人快速说句公道话，因为他们在二战历史上确实饱受苛责。实际上，最后投降的是一位名叫梅西的意大利将军，他曾在东线指挥意大利部队，在多场战役中表现出色。蒙哥马利唯一没赢的鲜为人知的战役，就是他在北非恩菲达维尔的最后一战——梅西凭借在多处悬崖构筑的高效防御工事，实际上取得了防御战的胜利。

You know, I've gotta have a quick nod to the Italians because they do get a tough time through their history in the Second World War. Actually, the Italian general is the last one to surrender, a guy called Messi, who's actually commanded Italian forces on the Eastern Front. He does very well in a number of battles. And one little known battle that Monty doesn't win is the last battle he fights in North Africa at Enfidaville, which is really a defensive victory for Messi who opposes him. He's got this very effective defensive position on a number of cliffs.

蒙蒂总是试图轻描淡写这件事，毕竟他想保持'未尝败绩'的名声。但坦白说，细究战况细节，完全可以认为他输掉了那场战役。所以这是意大利人的一项荣誉，但对轴心国而言结局仍是彻底的灾难。

And Monti always tries to kind of gloss over this, you know, because he wants to keep the reputation of a man who's never lost a battle. But, frankly, when you look at the detail of what happened there, you could argue that he does lose that battle. So that's a feather in the cap for the Italians, but the outcome is a utter catastrophe for the Axis.

希特勒是否命令他们战斗到突尼斯市中心最后一栋建筑？为何会出现如此大规模有组织的投降？

Did Hitler order them to fight to the last building in in the heart of Tunis? Why such a large and organized surrender?

理论上要战斗到最后一颗子弹。实际上许多德军高级指挥官最后时刻抗命了——他们并未真正打光弹药，还剩不少子弹，甚至坦克也仍有炮弹储备。

To the last bullets. Actually, a lot of the senior German commanders disobey at the last moment. They don't quite fight to the last bullet. There are bullets still left. There are still tanks with ammunition.

但毫无疑问，这是一场不可避免的失败，他们继续战斗下去也毫无意义。有趣的是，直到包括冯·阿尼姆在内的高级指挥官们意识到希特勒向我们传达的一切之前，他们战斗得多么顽强。是的，我们会在某种程度上掩护后方，但基本上，现在只有一条路可走——那就是投降。

But it is absolutely without question an inevitable defeat, and it would have been slightly pointless for them to have kept fighting. It is quite interesting how tough they fight up to the point at which their senior commanders, Von Arnhem included, realized whatever we've been told by Hitler. Yeah. We're gonna cover our backs to a certain extent, but basically, there's only one way to go now. And that surrender.

尽管隆美尔早在两个月前就提出过撤退请求，那时还有可能实施——冯·阿尼姆本人也意识到，我们永远无法脱身了。他在四月底提出请求，当然那时已经太迟了。正如我所说，他们25万人全部被俘，但我认为更广泛的战略态势对轴心国军队而言同样是一场灾难。

And although Rommel had made a request for an evacuation to take place two months earlier when it would have been possible, so had Von Arnhem himself realized, we're never gonna get out of this. He makes that request in late April, and, of course, it's far too late by that point. And as I say, they're all 250,000 of them are taken, but I think it's the broader strategic position as well that is such a disaster for Axis Arms.

现在是五月，也就是斯大林格勒最终投降后的三四个月。你是说当时在德国，人们将此事与对德意志帝国轴心军力的同等重创相提并论？

Well, it's May, so it's, what, three months, four months after the final surrender at Stalingrad. And you're saying that it was talked about in Germany, talked about at the time as equivalent body blows to the Axis forces of the German empire.

没错。戈培尔有句很妙的同期评论——丹，这类史料总是很珍贵——他说'这将是与斯大林格勒同等沉重的打击'。他在5月7日的日记中写下这句话，当时他还不知道突尼斯正被攻占。

Yeah. There's a nice quote by, a contemporaneous quote, Dan, which is always nice, by Goebbels. And he says, this will be a blow to equal Stalingrad. And he writes that in his diary on the May 7. He doesn't realize that Tunis is being captured at that point.

消息一两天后才传来。而全面投降发生在六天后。但他早已明白这是场灾难。他在多处提及突尼斯战役。我之前提到的副作战部长韦雷蒙特当时也写道：'显然一旦突尼斯失守，南欧就门户洞开了。'

The news comes through a day or two later. And, of course, the complete surrender takes place six days later. But he already knows that this is a catastrophe. I mean, he he refers to the fighting in Tunisia multiple times. The deputy operations chief that I mentioned earlier, Verelemont, also writes at that point, it was clear that once Tunisia was gone, Southern Europe was naked.

他们害怕两件事：一是失去盟友——虽然意大利真正退出战争还要再等六个月，但从此刻起这已成定局；二是失去北非洲据点，导致西方盟军从欧洲柔软的南翼长驱直入。他们担心马上会有大规模登陆吗？不。

They fear two things. They fear the loss of their ally, which is inevitable from this point onwards, although, of course, it takes until another six months later before Italy finally leaves the war. But they also fear the loss of this North African glacci and therefore the approach of the western allies through Europe's southern underbelly. Do they fear that there's gonna be a major invasion then? No.

他们仍认为主攻方向在北方。但两线压力逐渐压缩着轴心国的机动空间。单就控制地中海这一点——盟军最终在1943年夺取西西里后彻底实现——就至关重要：原先受地中海屏障保护的意大利等要地瞬间暴露。西方盟军估算，通过控制地中海节省了百万吨级航运量，因为船队不再需要绕行南非。这也是他们当初能说服美国参战的原因之一——始终存在将航运资源投入欧洲战场还是太平洋战场的权衡问题。

They still think it's gonna come from the North. But a combination of the two is gradually restricting axis room for maneuver. And one obvious point alone is to control the Mediterranean, which they ultimately do, particularly after they take Sicily in the 1943, is also absolutely crucial because all of the points, including Italy, that would have been secure with Mediterranean control go. All of a sudden, the Western allies, they reckon they save a million tons of shipping by securing the Mediterranean because, of course, they don't have to go all the way around Southern Africa. And this is one of the reasons why they managed to persuade the Americans to get involved in the first place because there's always this trade off with the shipping they're gonna devote to their European theater of operations as opposed to the Pacific.

因此，拯救船只对美国人来说至关重要。

So saving ships is vital for the Americans.

突然间，如果你控制了北非，你就面对着法国南部，还有意大利、巴尔干半岛、希腊。我的意思是，你掌握了希特勒整个南翼的命脉。这是否意味着你可以随意调遣？

And suddenly, if you control North Africa, you're looking out the Southern France, there's Italy, there's there's the Balkans, there's Greece. I mean, you you've got the whole of Hitler's southern flank. Is it your beck and call?

没错。关于战争的其他关键点，人们常问我，而我现在正在撰写相关内容：为什么苏联能在东线取得如此巨大的进展？很大程度上与空中力量有关。这可以部分归因于战略轰炸行动，一方面削弱了德国生产新战斗机的能力。他们特别针对了生产战斗机的各类工业设施。

Yeah. And the other really important point to make about the rest of the war, you know, people often ask me, and I'm writing about this at the moment, why were the Russians able to make such huge gains on the Eastern Front? Well, a lot of it was about air power. So you can put that down partly to the strategic bombing campaign, which on the one hand is degrading the Germans' ability to produce new fighter planes. They particularly, targeted, the various industries that produce fighter planes.

但另一方面，他们从包括地中海在内的其他战区调集了大量战斗机。仅在地中海战区，突尼斯战役就损失了2400架飞机。这是相当大的数量。丹，如果我告诉你，到1944年初，也就是仅仅六个月后，他们在整个东线只有500架战斗机。什么概念？

But, also, they're bringing in a lot of their fighter planes from these various other theaters, including the Mediterranean. In the Mediterranean alone, the Tunisian campaign alone, they lose 2,400 planes. This is a big chunk. If I was to tell you, Dan, that by the beginning of 1944, okay, so just six months later, they have 500 fighters on the whole of the Eastern Front. What?

人们总疑惑德军为何溃败——比如中央集团军群在白俄罗斯战役中的崩溃。要知道，苏联军队的作战能力确实大幅提升，但他们更拥有巨大的空中优势。这一优势的成因之一，正是德国空军在地中海保卫本土及随后诺曼底战役中的持续消耗。

And people wonder why they collapsed. That is the German Army Group Center collapses in Operation Bagration. Well, you know, the the Russians have got so much better at fighting. They had, but they had a huge advantage in air power. And one of the reasons they had that is because of the degrading of the Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean defending the Reich and also in, of course, the fighting that is going to begin in Normandy thereafter.

而东线制空权的丧失，最终被证明是致命的。

And the loss of air supremacy, particularly on the Eastern Front, was ultimately gonna prove fatal.

我们认为整个北非战役使轴心国损失了近百万兵力。

We think it cost the Axis nearly a mill the whole North African campaign cost the Axis nearly a million men.

你从没想过这一点，对吧？要知道，当我们回顾那段历史时，德国最初派出的兵力我记得是1.6万人。诚然，意大利人一度部署了数十万部队。但想想看，轴心国在北非总共损失了百万大军，仅这个数字就足以说明这场战役最终具有何等关键意义。

You never think of that, do you? You know? I mean, when we think of those, I think it was 16,000 men the Germans send over initially. Admittedly, the Italians have got a couple of 100,000 in place at one stage. But to think that Axis forces in total, a million were lost in North Africa, that figure alone will give you a sense of how ultimately pivotal it proved to be.

请再告诉大家一次书名是

Tell everyone once again what the name of

《突尼斯梯度：非洲的胜利》，书名已说明一切。当然主要内容聚焦突尼斯战役，但要真正理解突尼斯，必须先了解他们此前到达的位置——这正是我们这次对话试图探讨的。

your book is. Yeah. Tunis Grad Victory in Africa, which says it all. I mean, of course, it's chiefly about the Tunisian campaign, but you can't really talk about Tunisia without understanding where they got to before then, and that's something I think we tried to do in this in this chat.

谢谢索尔。你再次提醒我们这是个多么宏大的全球叙事——第二次世界大战。在这次对话中，我们从摩洛哥延伸到中东甚至更远。多么精彩的故事，非常感谢。

Thanks, Saul. Again, you've come in reminding me just what a global story this is, the Second World War, and stretching in this conversation, we stretch from Morocco to Middle East and beyond. So what an amazing tale. Thank you very much.

谢谢丹。

Thanks, Dan.

衷心感谢各位收听本期《丹·斯诺的历史冲击》。没有你们，这个播客就无法持续。这是实话。所以若想继续收听，请立即在播客平台点击关注，科技的力量会将新剧集自动推送至你的播客库。

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