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你的特点很特别，嗯，你打造了一些最伟大的现代科技，但你又如此痴迷并热爱过去，我觉得这非常有趣。
You have a weird, uh, combination of like, you built some of the greatest modern technology, but you're- you have this obsession with and love of like the past, which I think is very interesting.
是的，我认为这是一种对过去的健康痴迷。我上学时学过拉丁语、希腊语和古代史。
Yeah. A, a healthy obsession with the past, I think. It is- it's- I mean, I did Latin, Greek, and ancient history at school.
嗯。
Yeah.
虽然这些知识似乎毫无用处，但古希腊文明如何兴起，罗马文明如何开始、如何衰落、人们如何治理，这些都很有趣。
A- and apparently of no use at all, but it is- it is interesting how Greek civilization took place, and how Roman civilization started, and how it failed, and how people governed.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
寡头政治好吗？独裁统治好吗？还是民主制度？这些都很有趣，而历史总在重复，现在重复得也太快了。所以，历史真的很有趣。
Were oligarchies good? Were dictatorships good? So- or democracies. You know, all that, it's interesting and history repeats itself, and it's repeating itself rather too quickly at the moment. So it's, uh, history is interesting.
在开始录制之前，我们聊过，我特别痴迷于阅读你写过的所有东西。我读过你的第一本自传五遍，第二本至少读了两遍。
We were talking before we started recording, I have this obsession with reading everything that you have written. I read your uh, first autobiography five times, your second one at least two times.
但人们可能知道这些，却不知道你其实写过《伟大发明史》。我注意到，这本书出版时，我想你是在2001年左右写的。
But then, you know, people might know about this, but they don't know that you actually wrote A History of Great Inventions. And what I noticed about this is it was published, I think you were writing this in like 2001.
是的。
Yeah.
是什么让你这么做？你在建立公司的同时还做了这件事，原因是什么？
What caused you, like why did you do this? You were building your company at the exact same time.
是的，因为我对发明非常感兴趣，想知道它们是如何产生的、是谁做的、背后有哪些人物。这些都是鼓舞人心的故事。幸运的是，英国一家大报的编辑邀请我来写这个。
Yes. Uh, because I'm really interested in inventions. How- how they happened, who did them, what personalities were behind them. And they're inspiring stories. And luckily, an editor of a big newspaper in Britain, um, asked me to do it.
于是我答应了，实际上我们以彩色增刊的形式在一份周末报纸上连载，之后又集结成书。
So I agreed to do it, and actually, we published it as a series of color supplements to a weekend newspaper, and then put it into a book.
你是什么时候开始对历史产生这种痴迷的？
How old were you when you started this- when- when you had this obsession with history?
哦，从上学时就开始了，完全是从小学起。尤其是希腊和罗马历史。英国历史也非常有趣，我了解所有的国王和女王，记得他们的在位年代。
Oh, from school. Absolutely from school. Um, but particularly Greek and Roman history. I mean, British history is really interesting, and I know all the kings and queens, I know their dates.
其实我并不是特别聪明的人，记东西也不擅长，但我偏偏记住了所有这些历史。而且，历史确实一再重演，你能从中学到很多有趣的东西。
Uh, I'm not- I'm not a very clever person actually, I'm not good at remembering things, but I have remembered all that history. And it- it jolly well does repeat itself, so you can learn really interesting things from history.
我注意到，那些在各自领域中顶尖或接近顶尖的人，都有一种热爱从历史中学习的倾向。
And this is what I've noticed, people that are, you know, the best in the world at what they do, or near the best in the world at what they do, they all have this love of learning from history.
查理·芒格有一句我最喜爱的名言关于这一点，他说，从历史中学习是一种杠杆。
Charlie Munger has one of my greatest quo- uh favorite quotes about this, he says that, uh, learning from history is a form of leverage.
你可以实际上运用那些早已故去的人的思想，你会发现他们和你非常相似。
And you can actually, you know, use ideas of people long dead, and you'll find out that they were very similar to you.
他们经历了同样的挣扎，同样的恐惧、同样的不安全感，也拥有同样的胜利。
That they had the same- they went through the same struggles, the same- they had the same fears, they had the same insecurities, they had the same triumphs.
你可以随手拿起一本某人的传记，就像我面前这些书一样。我在录音前就跟你说过，我正在翻阅……
And that you can just pick up a book of somebody's life story, like the ones that I have in front of me. I- I told you before we started recording, I was going through, you know, very...
我和你一样，对自己的工作有着痴迷和热爱，而我的情况不是发明，而是创建播客。这本书我是在2018年4月第一次找到的。
I had this obsession and love with my work, just like you do, and in my case, was- it was not invention, it was creating podcasting- podcasts. And this book, I found it, you know, I think it was April 2018, the very first time.
我读了它，而那时我已经为启动我的播客挣扎了两年，几乎没有任何成功——基本上毫无进展。我经历了五年半的挣扎。
I- I read it, and I'd already been struggling to start my podcast for two years with very l- almost no, uh, success at all. Basically none, no success. And it took me five and a half years of struggle.
在那五年半的第二年，我找到这本书之所以如此重要，是因为那时我还没取得任何哪怕微小的成功，我心想：‘嗯，詹姆斯也挣扎过——这本书90%讲的都是他为14年……
And the reason this was so important to find at year two into that five and a half years, before I had any m- uh, you know, even remote level of success, is 'cause I'm like, "Well, James struggled f- this book is 90% of it is you struggling for 14
年，打造了5127个原型——'
years, building 5,127 prototypes-"
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
“……并且拒绝放弃。”你在这本书里也特别幽默，比如你说：“任何时候，如果你觉得我有点自负，那就想想吧，我只不过是在庆祝自己像骡子一样固执。”
"... and refusing to give up." You're also funny as hell in the book. Where you're like, "Any time, if you think I'm, you know, have a little bit of an ego, just r- realize that I'm only- I'm only celebrating that I have the stubbornness of a mule."
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
这是我的笔记，显然我读书时会疯狂做标记，我之前在录音前给你看过这个。
This is the note, so obviously I mark up the books like crazy, and I was showing you this before we started recording.
而且，我真的读到了最后一页，当我为其他人的利益录制播客、记录我的想法时，正是你激励了我这样做：‘我希望戴森的故事能激励你，在跌倒时说：“好吧，那就再试一次。”’
And this is really, I got to the very last page, and when I was recording my thoughts for the benefit of other people by making the podcast, this is what you inspired me to do, it's like, "I hope Dyson's story inspires you to say, when you get
“被击倒时，‘好吧，那就再试一次。’”
knocked down, 'All right then, let's give it another go.'"
嗯，重新振作真的很重要。而且，如果你正在探索新领域，进行实验并尝试做一些不同的事情——这正是你我想做的事——你肯定会失败很多次，
Mm-hmm. Yeah, bouncing back is really important. And, uh, if you are, um, exploring new territory, if you're experimenting and trying to do something different, which is what, you know, you and I want to do, uh, you're gonna fail many times, and
而且你必须从中爬起来。实际上，如果你能认识到失败比成功有趣得多，因为失败会让你质疑：‘为什么会出错？’而往往，出错的原因本身就非常非常有趣。
you've gotta bounce back from it. And actually, if you learn that failure is so much more interesting than success, 'cause failure, you question it. "Well, why did it go wrong?" And actually, the reason it goes wrong is often very, very interesting.
当某件事奏效时，你会说‘太好了，这管用’，却从不停下来思考它为什么有效。所以，你必须享受失败——这听起来很难，但如果你想改进事物，就必须享受失败。
When something works, you say, "Great, that works," and you don't even stop to wonder why it worked. So if- you- you've got to enjoy failure, as- that's a- sounds a difficult thing to do, but you have to enjoy failure if you want to improve things,
如果你想……不是改变世界，而是改变和改进事物，这二者是相辅相成的。总是让我感到难过的是，学校根本没教过这一点。
if you want to... Not change the world, but change things and improve things. Goes hand in hand. And it always saddens me that school doesn't really teach that.
在学校或大学里，目标是表现卓越，第一次就答对。确实有一些聪明人能做到，但对我们其他人来说，我们并不聪明，要达到目标，我们必须努力，必须经历失败。
At school or university, the thing is to be brilliant and to get the answer right first time. And I- there are brilliant people who can do that, but for the rest of us, we're not brilliant, and to get there, we have to strive, and we have to go
我们意识到，你第一次得不到正确答案，第二次也得不到。就我而言，我数过，一共失败了5127次。我总想说的是，这听起来像是一场挣扎。
through failure. And we realize that, you know, you don't get it right first time, you don't get it right second time. In my case, and I counted it, it's 5,127 times. One of the things I always want to say is that that sounds like a struggle.
没错，这确实是一场挣扎，但事实上，这是一场极其令人享受的挣扎。债务在增加，我有三个孩子、一个妻子、一个家，还有像其他人一样的房贷要还。
Okay, it was a struggle, but actually, it was a hugely enjoyable struggle. The debt was mounting, and I had three children and a wife and a home and then a mortgage to pay like everybody else.
但我生活中有明确的目标，有真正的追求，我必须达成它。这些失败很有趣，因为我从每一次失败中都学到了东西，几乎每一次都是如此。
But, um, I had a real point in life, I had a real aim, and I had to get there. And the failures were interesting because I learned from every single one of them, almost every single one of them.
再多说说你的人生目标吧。那是一种使命吗？当时你身处其中时，是怎么看待它的？
Say more about that you had an aim in life. Was it a mission? How did you think of it then while you were going through it?
当我发现我热爱工程学时——因为我在学校学的是古典文学——
Well, when I discovered that I loved engineering, 'cause I- I did classics in school-
嗯。
Yeah.
... 我当时离工程学简直太远了，后来我去学设计，才发现了工程学。所以工程学对我来说是全新的，就像一种新事物。
... like I couldn't be further away from engineering, and then I went to study design, and then discovered engineering. So engineering was new to me, it was like something new.
在大学时，我有个挺傻的想法：我想设计产品，想制造它们，想开发它们的技术，还想生产和销售它们。这简直是一种狂妄的想法。
And I had this sort of stupid thought when I was at college, that I wanted to design products, I wanted to engineer them, I wanted to develop their technology, and I wanted to manufacture them, and I wanted to sell them.So it's a sort of megalomania
你知道的。
thought, you know.
为什么？为什么这是狂妄的想法？
Why? Why is it megalomania thought?
因为我当时只是伦敦的一个身无分文的学生，对吧？我怎么可能有成为全球制造商的念头？
'ca- 'cause I was a, just a penniless student in London, you know, right? How, how could I have this thought of being, you know, a global manufacturer?
我不知道自己为什么会有这种想法，但当时发生了一些有趣的事：协和飞机正在研制，艾西戈尼斯推出了他的迷你车，你知道的，那款车直到今天还在生产。
And I don't know how or why I had that thought, but there were interesting things happening at that time because Concorde was happening. Um, Issigonis brought out his Mini car, uh, you know, which is still going today by the way.
嗯。
Yeah.
今天非常成功。那是二战后大约15年的事。
Hugely successful today. So there were in, it, it was, and it was about 15 years after the Second World War.
战争期间和战后不久物资匮乏，但突然间，尤其是在60年代中期，我认为在伦敦这个地方，人们有一种感觉：‘啊，我们终于摆脱了过去。',
So there was deprivation during the war and immediately afterwards, but suddenly, um, particularly in the mid-'60s and I think particularly in London where I was, there was a feeling that, "Ah, we're free of the past.
我们可以做些全新的、不同的事情。' 当时，诺曼·福斯特、理查德·罗杰斯和巴克敏斯特·富勒等人，都在对设计、工程和建筑等领域提出极具前瞻性和革命性的想法。
We can do something new and different." And Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, and Buckminster Fuller, all these people were having really expansive and revolutionary thoughts about design, engineering, buildings, and so on.
因此，我很幸运能身处那个时代。我想，我被这种大胆的想法感染了，这就是我想要成为的样子。
So I, I was very lucky to be part of that era. And I think it, you know, I caught the bug, out of this very cheeky idea that that's what I wanted to be.
所以，这就是你遇到杰里米·弗莱的时候。我本来没打算以这种方式开始我们的对话，但很高兴它自然地引向了我真正想谈的话题——如果你能解释一下，
So this is when you meet Jeremy Fry. I'm, uh, well actually was not expecting to start our conversation the way we just did, but I'm glad it, uh, it leads perfectly to how I really wanted to start, which is like, I want, if you can explain who
杰里米·弗莱是谁，以及他对你的生活产生了怎样的影响。
Jeremy Fry was and the impact that he had on your life.
嗯，我当时在皇家艺术学院学习设计，师从一位非常著名的结构工程师，他与福斯特和罗杰斯合作过，我因此对工程产生了兴趣。
Mm-hmm Well, I, I was at the Royal College of Art doing design, and I was taught by a very famous structural engineer who worked with Foster and Rogers, and I became interested in engineering.
我为一位伦敦的演出经纪人设计了一种类似巴克敏斯特·富勒风格的结构，那是一个位于伦敦的剧院。
And I designed a, uh, a Buckminster Fuller type structure for an impresario in London. It was a theater for an impresario in London.
于是我去了这家工程公司，找到这位创办了工程公司的百万富翁，问他是否愿意为剧院提供资金。他说："不，我给你一份工作。"
And I went to, um, uh, this engineering company, this, uh, millionaire who had founded an engineering company, and asked him if he'd give money to the theater. And he said, "No, I'll, I'll give you a job.
我看你是个有趣的天才，我给你一份工作。"于是他开始给我派活，其中一项是设计一艘高速登陆艇——这是他的发明，我负责工程和设计。然后他说……
I can see you're an interesting genius and I'll give you a job." So he started giving me jobs, and one of them was to design this high speed landing craft, which was his invention that I engineered it and designed it. And he then said...
我当时是个留着长发的学生，穿着喇叭裤、紧身衬衫，那一类打扮。
And I was a long haired student with, you know, long hair, flared trousers, tight shirts, flared shirts, all that sort of thing.
他说："来吧，开始公司，制造并销售它。" 我有点困惑地看着他，说："我不懂怎么卖东西。" 他回答："听着，你是工程师。
He said, he said, "Come and start the company, making it and selling it." See, I sort of looked at him a bit and said, "I don't know how to sell things." And he said, "Look, you're the engineer.
你亲自设计了产品的每一平方英寸，所有细节你都了如指掌，你是最适合销售它的人。" 这对我来说是一次有趣的顿悟，因为我一直以为职业是分门别类的，
You've chosen every square inch of that product, all, everything. You know it all. You're the best person to sell it." So that was, uh, that was an interesting sort of revelation for me 'cause I'd always thought there were professions and, you know,
销售是一门职业，工程是另一门，制造是另一门，管理又是另一门。
there was... Sales was one profession, engineering was another, and manufacturing was another, and being a manager was another.
突然间，这位企业家亲口对我说："你看，你既是工程师又是设计师，对产品了如指掌，去制造它，去销售它吧。" 这打破了我心中所有的界限。
And suddenly it was this entrepreneur himself saying to me, "Well, look, you're, you're an engineer and designer and you know all about the product. Go and make it and go and sell it." So it broke down all the barriers for me.
我们成了很好的朋友，经常讨论工程学，共享对工程和制造的热爱。
We became great friends, and we had lots of discussions about, uh, engineering and, uh, and shared this passion for engineering and for making things.
你找到了一个同样痴迷于过去、过去的工程师、设计师和发明家的人，你们可以就他们如何建造产品、为何做出这些特定决策进行深入的对话。
And you found somebody that also had an obsession with the past, past engineers, past designers, past inventors that you could actually have a con- deep conversations with about how they built their products, why they made these certain decisions.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
然后你们把这些经验应用到你们自己的工作中，对吧？
And then you used those to inform the work that you guys were doing, correct?
是的，我的意思是，他是艾西戈尼斯的朋友。所以我从未见过艾西戈尼斯，但通过他我听说过他。
Yes. I mean, he, he was a friend of Issigonis. So, uh, I'd, I'd never met Issigonis but I heard about him from him.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
他们过去一起参加山路赛车，设计那种非常轻巧、动力很小却能快速爬坡的汽车，可以说是极其精简、极简主义的工程设计。
They used to do hill racing together, design cars that, very, very light cars that raced up hills very quickly with very little power. So sort of s- very skinny engineering, minimalist engineering.
他有很多那个年代的故事，他比我大二十岁，所以他在战争期间及之前已经经历了很多。
Uh, and so he, he had quite a lot of stories from, from that era. He was 20 years older than me, so, uh, he had seen a bit of life bef- during the war and...
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
...而且他做过赛车项目，并创办了一家工程公司。所以他彻底消除了障碍，让人觉得做一个痴迷的工程师没什么不对，你想做什么就去做，然后去
... uh, um, and had done this racing car thing and established an engineering company. So he, he just removed the barriers, um, that it was okay to be an obsessive engineer, and you, you just do whatever it is you want to do and then you go out and
把它卖出去。希望像哈梅林的花衣魔笛手一样，人们会追随你。所以，在我人生这个关键阶段能听到这样的建议，简直让我震惊不已。
sell it. And hopefully, like the pied piper of Hamelin, people will follow you. Uh, so, you know, to get that advice from someone at that crucial stage of my life was, was, um, well, I say mind-blowing.
它让我能够继续前行，去做那些别人都说我做不到的事情。
It was, it enabled me to carry on and, and do things that everybody said I couldn't do.
那你认为呢？因为你离开之前在Sea Truck项目上工作了五年？
And then what do you think, 'cause you worked on the Sea Truck for five years before you left?
嗯，差不多七年。
Yeah, about seven.
七年。
Seven years.
因为我在上大学的时候就做了两年。我课余时间兼职设计它，还在大学期间造出了一台，然后我离开大学后，就经营起公司来生产和销售它。
'Cause I, I, I did two years of it when I was at college. I moonlighted and, and designed it while I was, and made one while I was at college, and then I left college and ran the business making and selling it.
在你做Sea Truck的这七年里，有哪些最重要的经验？
What were some of the most important lessons from y- the seven years when you were doing the Sea Truck?
哦，我觉得从中学到了一切。我学会了如何制造，如何与制造商接洽并让他们生产零部件，如何建立工厂、生产产品，如何在海外销售，如何寻找代理商和分销商。
Oh, I think I learnt everything from that. I learnt how to manufacture, how to approach manufacturers and get them to make components, how to set up a factory, building the product, how to sell it overseas, uh, how to find agents and distributors,
诸如此类的事情，通过这些经历学会了失败与成功，明白了这一切关键在于人，而不是外表或他们公司的规模，而是要找到那种有正确热情的人。
all that sort of thing, and learn failures and successes with that, to learn that it's all about people, not appearances or how big their company was. It's finding the right sort of person with the right sort of enthusiasm.
再多说说这一点。
Say, say more about that.
如果你经营一家上市公司，要为加拿大选择一个分销商，那么选择一个刚刚起步的个人，而不是一家成熟的分销商，可能是不负责任的。
Probably if you're running a public company and you're choosing a distributor, let's say for Canada, um, it would be probably irresponsible to find an individual who is just starting out rather than choosing an established distributor.
但当然，那个刚刚起步的人，虽然还没有名气，但他可能极其热情，会倾尽全力、不辞辛劳地把事情做成。
But of course, the person who's just starting out, okay, he hasn't got a name yet, but he's probably incredibly enthusiastic and will put everything behind it and work all hours to make it work.
所以，真正支持的其实是人，而不是公司。
So it's the person, not the business, really, that you're backing.
我的朋友乔什·卡ushner有句很棒的话：当你需要决定和谁合作时，你是选择最有经验、最有学历的，还是选择最想要这个机会的人？
My friend Josh Kushner has this great quote when you have to decide when you're partnering with somebody, you know, do you d- decide the most experienced, the most educated, or who wants it the most?
你永远应该选择最想要这个机会的人。
You always choose the person that wants it the most.
经验是个有趣的东西，杰里米·弗莱教会了我这一点。他讨厌有经验的人，也讨厌留胡子的人，还有一些……
Experience is an interesting thing, and Jeremy Fry taught me this. He hated experienced people. He also hated people with beards and some...
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no.
还有别的事。但不管怎样——
And so something else. But anyway-
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no.
……但这属于另一个时代，另一个时代。哦，对了，那时候人们还抽烟斗。因为上世纪60年代人们确实抽烟斗，而且那时候的胡子也和现在不一样。
... but this was a different era. This was a different era. Oh, yeah, smoking pipes. That's right 'cause people used to smoke pipes back in the '60s. And beards were, beards were different in the '60s.
但不管怎样，我们还是回到经验这个重点上来。我发现了，如果你有经验，你就知道什么不该做，或者怎样才不该做。
Uh, but, um, anyway, come back to the experience thing, which is the important thing.Uh, th- the-- and I've discovered this, if, if you're experienced, you know how to-- why not to do something or how not to do something.
而如果你天真、是个刚毕业的年轻工程师，或者还在培训中，你就不会对某些事情抱有这种消极态度。
Whereas if you're naive and you're a young engineer, you've just qualified or you're, you're still training, you, you don't have that negativity towards certain things.
往往那些过去行不通、但如今可能有效且值得探索的事情，正是你愿意去尝试的。因此，你非常开放。
And often it's, um, something that hasn't worked previously that could work and is interesting to follow. So you're, you're very open.
我热爱天真，喜欢人们提出傻问题、愚蠢的问题，因为这会创造出不同的做事方式，而我们始终需要找到新的做事方法。
And I love naivete, people asking silly questions, stupid questions, because it creates a different way of doing things, and we've got to find different ways of doing things all the time.
我的朋友、Spotify的创始人丹尼尔·埃克，我们曾就此展开过讨论，他认为天真是一个年轻创业者或发明家最宝贵的资产之一，因为他曾说："如果我一开始就知道要让Spotify成功会这么困难——"
My friend, Daniel Ek, the founder of Spotify, uh, we had a conversation about this where he actually thinks naivety is like one of the greatest assets a young entrepreneur or an inventor can have 'cause he's like, "If I knew how difficult it would
……我根本不会去做这件事。"
be to make Spotify succeed at the beginning-" "... I would not have done that."
没错，没错。天真等于愚蠢？我不这么认为，我觉得天真很有趣，因为你真的在拼命思考："我到底该怎么做到这一点？"
Yeah. Yeah. Naivety equals stupidity. I- I don't think that, I think that naivety is interesting because you're thinking really hard, "How the hell do I do this?
我不知道该怎么解决这个问题。"有经验的人可能觉得自己知道怎么解决，但天真的人不知道，所以他们会想得更深入、更聪明。
I don't know how to solve this problem." The experienced person might think they know how to solve it, but the naive person doesn't. So they're thinking much harder and more intelligently.
詹姆斯·戴森痴迷于打造高品质的产品，他一生中进行了数以万计的实验，制造出了世界上一些最好的产品。
James Dyson is obsessed with crafting a high quality product, and he's made some of the best products in the world by running tens of thousands of experiments throughout his life.
每一次实验都旨在为他的客户打造更好的产品，这正是本播客的赞助商Ramp所做的事情。戴森让我想起了我的朋友卡里姆，他是Ramp的联合创始人兼首席技术官。
Every single experiment was aimed at making a better product for his customer. That is exactly what the presenting sponsor of this podcast, Ramp, does. Dyson reminds me of my friend Kareem, who's the co-founder and CTO of Ramp.
我经常和卡里姆交谈，每一次对话都围绕着他痴迷于打造高品质产品，并利用最新技术持续为客户创造更佳体验。
I spend a lot of time talking to Kareem, and every single conversation centers around his obsession with crafting a high quality product and using the latest technology to constantly create better experiences for his customers.
这正是詹姆斯·戴森所做的。卡里姆和詹姆斯·戴森都相信，没有什么是足够好的，一切都可以改进。
This is exactly what James Dyson does. Kareem and James Dyson both believe that nothing is ever good enough and everything can be improved.
Ramp拥有金融领域最杰出的技术团队之一，他们通过快速而不懈的迭代，每天都在改进产品，就像戴森一样。今年至今，Ramp已经发布了超过300个新功能。
Ramp has one of the most talented technical teams in finance, and they use rapid, relentless iteration to make their product better every day, just like Dyson. So far this year, Ramp has shipped over 300 new features.
Ramp完全致力于利用人工智能为客户提供更佳的体验，并自动化您企业财务的尽可能多的环节。
Ramp is completely committed to using AI to make a better experience for their customers, and to automate as much of your business' finances as possible.
事实上，卡里姆最近写道：'我们有责任成为先行者，突破极限，从而为客户提供最卓越的产品体验。'这听起来非常像詹姆斯·戴森，也正因如此，世界上许多增长最快、最具创新性的公司都在使用Ramp来运营他们的业务。请务必访问ramp.com，了解他们如何帮助您的企业节省时间和金钱。
In fact, Kareem just wrote this, "It is our duty to be first movers and push limits so we can make the greatest possible product experience for our customers." That sounds a lot like James Dyson to me, and it is why many of the fastest growing and
让AI追踪您的收据并完成您的账务，这样您就能把时间和精力投入到为客户打造卓越事物上，因为归根结底，这正是这一切的意义所在——打造一款能让他人生活更美好的产品或服务。
most innovative companies in the world are running their business on Ramp. Make sure you go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time and money.
这就是我正在努力做的事，这就是戴森毕生致力于追求的目标，也是Ramp所做到的。立即访问ramp.com开始使用吧。杰里米过去从事的是招聘像年轻詹姆斯·戴森这样人才的事业。
Let AI chase your receipts and close your books so you can use your time and energy building great things for your customers, because at the end of the day, that is what this is all about, building a product or service that makes someone else's life
就像这种聪明、热情、显然渴望投身于此的人，而不是那些来自其他公司、甚至竞争对手的人。
better. That is what I'm trying to do, that is what Dyson has dedicated his life to doing, and that is what Ramp has done too. Get started today by going to ramp.com. So Jeremy was in the- the business of hiring people like a young James Dyson.
就像这种聪明、热情、显然渴望投身于此的人，而不是那些来自其他公司、甚至竞争对手的人。
Like this smart, enthusiastic person that clearly wants to do this, as opposed to anybody that was... came from like another company or like even a competitor.
对，就是这样。
E- exactly that.
你现在就在做这件事。你仍然在做——
You're doing this now. You still do this-
是的。
Yeah.
...四十年后，五十年后。
... 40 years later, 50 years later.
是的。我们更进一步，创办了自己的大学。我们招收17岁和18岁的学生，从更年轻的时候就开始培养，让他们在公司里工作，提出天真的问题。
Yes. And we've taken it one stage further, 'cause we've started our own university. So we're taking 17 and 18-year-olds and starting even younger, and they work in the business and they ask naive questions.
你在书中提到了这所大学。同样，我从你身上学到的一点是：为了不同而不同。
You cover the university in the book. Again, one of the things I- I- I've personally learned from you is like differentiation for the sake of it.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
因此，每当我打算做一件事，我都会环顾四周……我的一位偶像之一是宝丽来创始人埃德温·兰德。
And so anything that I'm going to do, I look around... O- one of my heroes is Edwin Land, the founder of Polaroid.
嗯，没错。
Mm-hmm. Right.
他有一句很棒的话，他说：‘我的座右铭是，不要做别人能做的事。’你能详细解释一下，你们是如何构建和设计戴森大学的吗？
And he had this great line, he's like, "My personal motto is don't do anything somebody else can do." Can you explain exactly your enti- like how you structured and how you des- no, how you designed the Dyson University?
大学非常昂贵，所以——
University is very expensive. So-
是的。
Yes.
……最终——
... at the end-
尤其是在美国。
Especially in the United States.
没错，英国的情况也越来越糟。是啊，太糟糕了。你背负着这笔债务，很长时间都还不清，有时候长达二十年。
Right. And it's getting as bad in England. Yeah, no, it's terrible. And you're saddled with that debt, um, for a long time. I mean, sometimes 20 years.
而且，很多债务根本还不了，我们需要找到一种不同的教学方式。这太荒谬了，因为学生每年只学习一半时间，其余时间都是假期。
And in any case, um, a lot of the debt is not repaid, and we need to find a different way to teach people. And it's ridiculous because they're only taught for half the year, the rest of it is holidays.
所以你有这些大型、昂贵的机构，人们却只部分时间在那里。这太疯狂了。
So you've got these big institutions, expensive institutions with people only there part-time. Uh, it's madness.
而且，当我上大学时与一家工程公司合作，我了解到——
And also, uh, as I learnt when I was at college working with an engineering company-
所以你上学时就在和杰里米一起工作？
'Cause you were working with Jeremy while you were still in school?
是的，我当时在兼职。学校知道我在做什么，并且批准了，但这并不是普通学生会做的事。
While I was, yes. I was, uh, sort of moonlighting. The college knew what I was doing and approved of it, but, um, it wasn't what normal students did.
所以，那段经历我非常喜欢——和那些需要实际做事的人一起工作，不是搞学术的人，而是必须赶工完成任务的人。我真的非常享受那种感觉。
So th- that, but I loved that experience w- working with people who are having to do things, not academics, people having to do things and having to do them in a hurry. And, uh, I really enjoyed that.
于是我心想：‘为什么我不给其他人也提供这样的机会呢？’于是我们创办了自己的大学。但这很难，因为政府必须批准。
And I thought, "Well, why can't I give that opportunity to other people?" Uh, so we started our own university. Um, and it- it's difficult thing to do 'cause it- the government has to approve it.
在七年里，我们不得不与另一所大学合作，但它们都不愿与我们合作，因为它们不喜欢……把我们视为强劲竞争对手，因为我们给学生发工资。
And for seven years, we had to work with another university, and none of them would work with us 'cause they didn't like the... they saw us as big competitors, 'cause we pay our students.
是的。你一开始就说：‘为什么我们要让这些年轻人背负如此沉重的负担——'
Yeah. That's an- You're- you start with, "Why are we saddling these young people with an albatross-"
来吧。
Come on.
……把债务像枷锁一样套在年轻人脖子上，限制了他们真正能追求的东西？' 他们会不得不从事一些被迫接受、并不想做的工作——
"... of debt around their necks that's going to limit their, you know, what they can actually pursue?" They're gonna be taking jobs that they're forced to take that they don't want to take-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
……可能是为了钱，而不是追随你内心的……我甚至不称之为热情，我觉得那更像是一种执着。
... maybe for money as opposed to you following your just... I don't even call it passion, I think it's more like an obsession that you have.
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
所以，我理解得对吗，没有学费？
So am I correct, there's no tuition?
是的，有学费。我们每周教他们两天。
Yes, there's tuition. We teach them two days a week.
好的。
Okay.
他们每周有三天和我们一起工作。
And they work with us three days a week.
但你们支付他们这三天的工资吗？
But you pay them for the three days?
我们支付，我们付给他们报酬。他们每年工资是45,000美元。他们有车，还会去滑雪度假。这些人都是普通人，不是学生。
We pay, we pay them. We pay them $45,000 a year. They have cars, they go on skiing holidays. So those are normal people, they're not students.
他们属于一个学生群体，我们一共有大约170名这样的学生，但他们分散在整个公司里，他们非常喜欢这样。
The- they're in a student group, we have about 170 of them altogether, but they're interspersed throughout the company and they love that.
他们喜欢和那些赚钱、必须让事情运转起来、必须做工程、做市场或销售、做制造的人一起工作。
They love working with people who are earning money and having to do- having to make things work, having to do engineering, having to do marketing or selling whatever it is, manufacturing.
他们喜欢这种现实感，这激励他们去学习学术部分……因为很多人说，工程的学术部分很难，很吃力，但因为我每天都能实践，所以我有动力去学。
They like the reality of that, and it inspires them to learn the academic side.... 'cause a lot of them said, you know, the academic side of engineering is difficult, it's hard. But I'm inspired to do it because I got to practice it every day.
而不是把两者分开吗？
As opposed to separating the two?
而不是上四年大学，只学学术知识。在我们这里，他们就是发明家，他们在开发技术，并且真正理解为什么需要掌握学术和理论。
As opposed to going to university and just having academia for four years. With us, they're, the de- they're being inventors, they're developing technology, and they're learning exactly why they need to know the academic side, the theory.
为什么从你的角度来看，一个没有经验的人比来自现有公司的人更好？
Explain why it's better to have a per- in your opinion, a person with no experience than somebody that came from a, an existing company?
你年纪越大，就越倾向于运用你的经验。如果你来自一家现有公司，你可能已经养成了不良习惯。
The older you get, the more you try to apply your experience. And if you've come from an existing company, you may have picked up bad habits.
我不是说戴森公司就没有不良习惯，而是说你可能已经沾染了那家公司的习惯，而这些习惯可能并不符合我们想要的态度——那种持续变革、不断尝试新事物的态度。
I'm not saying we don't have bad habits at Dyson, but I'm saying you've picked up the habits of that company, which may not be the right sort of attitude that we want, this attitude of constant change, constantly trying new things, trying to be
追求不同，只是为了不同，因为这让我们走上了一条不同的道路。有些人觉得这很难接受，有些人更喜欢传统的方式。
different, for different's sake, because it sets us on a different path. And, and some people find that difficult. Some people want to have a much more conventional way to do things.
所以，如果你雇了八个人，你们的18岁员工也在上学，对吧？
And so if you, y- you're hiring eight, you have 18-year-olds working in Dyson, they're also going to school.
还有两个是17岁的。
One's two 17-year-olds as well.
好吧，17、18岁的孩子。这感觉怎么样？
Okay, 17, 18-year-olds. What is that like?
说实话，根本没人注意到有什么不同。
To, to be honest, nobody really notices any difference.
好吧，这肯定会让一些人感到震惊，尤其是那些认为在美国必须高中毕业、然后上大学的人。
Okay. That's got to be shocking for, for at least f- for people who like... Uh, they assume, okay, that you have to graduate high school in America. They have to go to college.
在很多情况下，他们甚至会读到研究生，等他们开始工作时，年龄都快30了。
Maybe in many cases they have, they go to graduate school and then they're almost 30 by the time- ... they start working.
而你却说：‘不。’
And you're like, "No."
是的。
Yeah.
‘那18岁的孩子呢？’你得再多讲讲这个。
"How are the 18-year-old?" You got to say more about this.
是的，因为你知道，他们充满热情，他们来找我们是因为想做真正的工作，而他们确实也在做真正的工作。
Yeah. It, well, because, um, you know, they, they're enthusiastic. They've come to us because they want to do real work, and they do real work.
尽管他们没有毕业生或四年级学生那么有经验，但这并不意味着他们提供的价值就少，甚至可能更多，因为他们更天真。
And just because they're not as experienced as graduates or someone in year four as opposed to year one, doesn't mean to say they don't have just the same to offer or even something better to offer 'cause they're even more naive.
所以这真的非常有效，而且很有趣。
So it's, uh, it, it works really, really well, and it's interesting.
我想回到与海卡车相关的七年时光。你在两本书中都写到了杰里米·弗莱，而且在很多情况下，你知道，50年后，你仍然与他共度时光并和他一起工作。
I want to go back to the seven years with the sea truck. You, the, you write about Jeremy Fry in both books, and in many cases, you know, 50 years, uh, in this book, 50 years after you, you've spent time with him and worked with him.
你说，你在与他共事期间学到的许多理念，至今仍在戴森公司沿用——
You said you, there's a lot of ideas that you learned working with him that you still apply to this day at Dyson-
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
……我觉得这非常有趣——
... which I think is very fascinating-
是的。
Yeah.
……这体现了理念的力量——
... it speaks to the power of ideas, which is-
顺便说一句，我对胡子没有偏见。
I don't have a prejudice against beards, by the way.
哦，谢谢。
Oh, that, thank you.
是的，我想我可能保留了烟斗，但没留胡子。
Yeah, I, I think I probably retained the pipe one, but not the beard one.
我不抽烟斗，这没关系。我也没有那种嬉皮士式的胡子，所以——
I don't smoke pipe, that's fine. And I don't have like the, you know, the hippie beard, so it's-
不，不。
No, no.
这没什么。我的意思是，如果我认识杰里米·弗莱时……那会让我心碎的，因为你知道，他也几乎成了我的偶像。
... it's, it's fine. I mean, it'd break my heart to know Jeremy Fry when, when... Because, you know, he's become almost my hero too.
他这些年肯定变了，他——
He, he, he would have changed over the years. He's, uh, he's-
当然。但有一件事很有趣，嗯，我也想问问你……我对风险承受能力的看法很感兴趣。
For sure. But one thing that's fascinating is, okay, this also speaks to, uh, I wanted you... Uh, I'm curious about your opinion on risk tolerance.
显然——
Obviously-
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
... 你在两个故事中都表现出过高的风险承受能力。但你就像说：‘我为你的导师工作，你认为他——
... you have excessively high risk tolerance in both stories. But you're like, "I have, I'm working for, you know, a, uh, your mentor, who you think-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
... 是个天才。’
... I think is a genius."
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
他对你非常好，给了你完全的自主权和控制权。他就像说：‘去运营这个业务吧。’ 书中有一句很棒的话，你提到他让你接触到了完全不同的运作模式，
Uh, he treats you really, really well. He gave you complete autonomy and control. He's like, "Just go run this business." There's a great line in the book where you're like, uh, y- y- he introduced you to, to completely different modus operandi of,
比如，‘我们需要一个不懂空气动力学的人。’ 他说：‘好吧，陆虎就在下面，湖就在那儿。',
uh, of the way to operate where you're like, uh, "We need somebody who didn't know about aerodynamics." He's like, "Well, the Range Rover's down there. Like, the lake's right there.
比如，绑上一块，呃，一块——
Like, tie, uh, a pliece of, uh, a p- a piece-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
...在船后放一块木头，记录会发生什么，然后进行调整。
... of wood behind the boat and record what happens and then change it."
嗯，对。
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
但你离开去搞Ball Barrel的时候，我记得你已经有妻子和至少一个孩子了吧？
And but you had, I think, a wife and at least one child when you left to do the Ball Barrel?
两个。
Uh, two.
两个。
Two.
两个孩子。
Two children.
好的，所以是两个孩子。
Okay, so two kids.
对，对，对，对。
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
我想你有房贷。
You have, I think, a mortgage.
不，是的，是的，是的。
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
所以你有一家人要照顾，你有一份高薪的好工作。
So you have a family to take care of. You have a great high paying job.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
对吧？你和一位你非常钦佩的人紧密合作，他在七年里教会了你很多。
Right? Uh, you have, you're working hand-in-hand with somebody you greatly admire that has taught you a ton in seven years.
是的。
Yeah.
但你却说：‘我需要出去创业，做自己的事情。’
And yet you're like, "I need to go out and be an entrepreneur and do my own thing."
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
好吧，我想谈谈这一点。其次，我有一件事不明白——无论我读多少遍，为什么你不让他投资？
Okay, so I want to talk about that. And then the second thing that I didn't understand, e- no matter how many times I read this, why didn't you let him fund it?
那真是个愚蠢的决定。不，那个——
That was a really stupid decision. No, that c-
也许这就是我无法理解的地方。
Maybe that's what I couldn't understand.
因为，呃，事实上，当我开始做吸尘器生意时，我们是一起出资的。
... because, um, and in fact he and, uh, ultimately when I started the vacuum cleaner business, we did fund it together.
是的。
Yes.
呃，所以——
Uh, so that-
这个我们待会儿再说。
Which we'll get to.
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
那真是个愚蠢的决定，因为他是个懂创业、知道创业有多难的人。
That was a really stupid decision because he was someone who understood about starting businesses, how difficult it was.
事实上，我去向我的姐夫和另一个不理解创业困难和成长阵痛的人借钱。
And in fact, I went to borrow money off my brother-in-law and another party, uh, who didn't understand the difficulties of starting businesses and the growth pains and so on.
在我们谈到那个之前，你能先说说……那个离开一份很棒的——
Before we get there, could you just... The, the decision to leave a great-
是的，是的，对。
Yes, yes. Yeah.
……你的，你的——
... your, your st-
嗯。
Yeah.
这简直像是你在刻意追求……哦，如果我这么说不对，你告诉我。我知道你有时为了不同而不同。在那个时期，你可能现在不是这样，但那时感觉你是在为冒险而冒险。
It's almost like you seek... Oh, uh, tell me if I'm wrong with this. I know you see difference for the sake of it. In that time period, you may not be like this now, in that time period, it felt like you were seeking risk for the sake of risk.
是的，不，我确实思考过这个问题。我觉得部分原因是，我父亲在我八九岁的时候去世了，我认为这对我产生了深远的影响，只是当时我并没有意识到。
Yeah. No, I, I've thought a bit about that. And I, I think it's partly because, um, my father died when I was eight, nine. And I think, I think that had a sort of profound effect on me that I didn't realize at the time.
因为我觉得自己和别人很不一样，我当时在寄宿学校，校长非常友善，允许我免费就读十年。这是一种非凡的善意举动。
Um, because I felt very different to other people 'cause I was at bo- I was at boarding school and the headmaster was very kind and he, um, allowed me to stay on for 10 years without paying any fees. So that was an extraordinary act of kindness.
但其他每个人都有父母，双亲齐全。那时候根本没有单亲家庭的概念，即使父母离婚了，他们也会一起出现来学校看望孩子。
Um, but, uh, I've every- everybody else had parents, two parents. There, there weren't single parent families in those days. And even if the, the two had split up, they appeared to come together to come and see their child at school.
但我只有我母亲来看我，我那贫穷的母亲来看我。所以我感到自己与众不同。而且，我认为如果你在那个年纪失去了父母，生活已经不可能更糟了。
But I had just my mother coming to see me, my impoverished mother coming to see me. So I felt different. And also, I think if y- if you've lost a parent at that age, uh, life can't get much worse.
所以你愿意冒险，因为你从一个极其糟糕的起点开始。冒险对我来说已经成为一种必须适应的生活方式，我必须时刻生活在刀锋之上。
So you're prepared to take risks because you've started from a, a horrible starting point. Risk has become a sort of thing I wo- I need to live with. I need to live on the knife edge all the time.
你今天仍然有这种感觉吗？
You still feel that way today?
是的，我今天仍然有这种感觉。这并不会让我感到不快乐，别误会，但我喜欢活在危险之中，因为你正在尝试新事物，做不同的事，而且充满风险。
I still feel that today, yes. And, um, it's not, um, it doesn't make me unhappy, don't get me wrong, but, but I- I like living, uh, for the moment in danger because you're on to something new, you're doing something different and it's risky.
结果完全不确定，事实上非常不确定，非常危险。但我并不在意，这并不会让我夜不能寐。
It's not... The, the result is not sure at all. In fact, it's very unsure, uh, very dangerous. S- uh, and I don't mind that. It doesn't keep me awake at night.
所以，你父亲去世时很年轻，才40岁，对吗？
So, it starts when your father dies at, he died really young, 40, he was 40 years old?
是的，40岁，没错。
Yeah, 40, yeah, yeah.
你当时九岁。
When you were nine.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
这真是最让我难以启齿的事之一，我一说起这个就忍不住想哭，因为这部分真的让我心碎。我想我现在可以谈一谈了。
It's one of the most, I, I don't even want to start talking about it without starting to tearing up 'cause like that just, just, that part just destroys me. And you, I guess I'll talk about this now.
我想回到风险和那个跃迁的话题。我觉得你第二本书最深刻的影响之一，是你在父亲去世六十年后才写下这些。
I want to go back to the risk and, and making that jump. One of the mo- I think one of the most profound impacts that your second book has is you're writing this 60 years after your father dies.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
而你在谈论你的孙子米克，作为一个69岁、拥有丰富人生经历的老人，你终于意识到当年自己有多么脆弱——因为你的孙子米克，现在还抱着他的毛绒玩具上床睡觉。
And you're talking about your grandson, Mick. And you realize, now as a 69-year-old man with a lifelong set of experiences, just how vulnerable you were 'cause he's still taking his, your grandson, Mick, is still taking his stuffed animal to bed.
现在你只剩下了一个九岁的男孩，他需要父亲。
And now you're left alone with, a, a nine-year-old boy needs his father.
是的，没错，他对我产生了深远的影响。他什么都做，他热爱制作戏剧，也热爱导演。
Y- yeah. No, he, he had a, a profound influence on me. Um, he had to do everything. I mean, he, um, he loved producing plays, uh, he loved directing them.
我保留着他那些小小的莎士比亚书籍中的笔记，上面划掉了某些台词，并写满了批注。他还做木偶戏，吹竖笛，教橄榄球，教曲棍球，他就是想尝试一切。
I've got notes in his lit- little Shakespeare books, crossing out lines and making notes about things. And he did puppet shows, he played the recorder, he did, he taught rugger, he taught hockey. Uh, he just wanted to do everything.
我有点像他，上学时尤其如此，特别是那些不涉及学术的事情，而他也是这样。
And I'm a bit like that, and I was certainly like that at school, um, especially if it didn't involve academia, but it was, uh, and he, and he was like that.
我刚刚想到一个可能之前没提过的联系：他晚年时想换职业。
I just thought of a connection maybe I don't, I didn't make previously. He wanted to change professions towards the end of his life.
他曾在缅甸参战。
He, he fought in the war in, in Burma.
哦，是这样。
Okay.
我们称之为被遗忘的战争。
We call it the Forgotten War.
是的。
Yeah.
那确实是一场遥远而残酷的战争。他于1946年从那里归来，1949年患上了癌症。
And it really was, and it was a nasty, nasty war a long way away. Um, and he came back from that in 1946, and in 1949 he c- contracted cancer.
好的。
Okay.
所以他离开了妻子六年，你知道，那是他们婚姻生活的头六年。之后他做了三年的古典文学教师，然后就得了癌症。
So he'd been away from his wife for six years, you know, first six, six years of their life together. Then he had three years being a classics master at, at school, and then he got cancer.
所以接下来的几年里，他不断进出医院——
And so he was in and out of hospital for the next-
好的，他当时——
Okay, well there was, he had-
……接下来的七年里。
... for the next seven years.
他有没有机会为BBC工作，或者类似的事情？
Did he have an opportunity to work for the BBC or something like that?
他本来想在那个时候做这件事——
That's what he wanted to do towards the-
他本来想做这件事——
That's what he wanted to do-
是的，没错。
Yeah, yes.
但从未有机会。
... but never had the opportunity.
但从未有机会去做。
But never had the opportunity to do it.
现在我在想，我刚刚问你的问题就是：你怎么可能放弃这么棒的工作，独自去闯呢？
And now I'm thinking, I just asked you the question was like, how the hell do you leave this fantastic position to go off on your own?
而你意识到，我有这个机会，而你父亲却不幸地，由于一些他无法控制的情况，从未得到这个机会。
And you realized, well, I had the opportunity to, where like your dad unfortunately, uh, uh, for, for a situation outside of his control, never got that opportunity.
没有，他在40岁时就被夺走了人生。而我现在快80岁了，活了他两倍长的时间。
No, he had his life stolen from him at, at the age of 40. And then, uh, you know, I'm almost 80, so twice as long as he did.
所以，这是一-
So, it's a-
你妈妈也早逝了。
Your mom passed away early too.
是的，她50多岁时也得了癌症。
Yes. She, she got cancer as well in her 50s.
55岁？
At 55?
是的，不是55岁。
Yeah, no 55.
我妈妈也早年因癌症去世了。
My, my mom passed away from cancer early too.
是的。
Yeah.
我，我-
I, I-
一种可怕的疾病。
A horrible disease.
你父亲40岁去世，你母亲在50多岁去世，这和我原本想跟你说的事没关系，但……
Did you ever, this is nothing related to what I think I was going to talk to you about, but your dad passes away at 40, your mom in his- her mid-50s.
你活得比他们俩都长——
You've lived much longer-
是的。
Yeah.
……比他们俩都久。你年轻的时候，有没有担心自己也会早逝？
... than both of them. When you were younger, were you worried that you were gonna die young too?
没有，我从来没这么想过。
No. That never occurred to me.
有意思。
Interesting.
没有，我从来没这么想过。我觉得这让我想尽快充分利用生命，让我迫不及待地要过好这一生。
No, never occurred to me. Uh, I think it made, it made me, uh, want to get the most out of life fast. Made me impatient to, to live my life.
有趣的是，我显然有阅读传记的习惯和痴迷。我读过的大多数传记主角都不像你，他们其实都已经去世了。
Funny, I, I obviously have a, a habit and an obsession with reading biographies. Most of the people I read biographies of are not like you, they're actually dead.
而且我觉得这个意外的传记——
And I think this unexpected bi-
好吧，我会尽量继续下去。
Well, I'll try and keep going.
不，不，不。我们要——我们要去戴森总部，我想录更多内容，我想去看看总部以及所有其他东西。所以，是的，你有活下去的理由。
No, no, no. We're gonna do- We're gonna, I'm go- I want to come to Dyson HQ and I want to record more things, and I want to like ch- see the headquarters and everything else. So yeah, you have a reason to live.
除了你美丽的家庭和其他一切。阅读大量已故人物传记的一个副产品是，当你读到结尾时，你不仅读完了这本书，而是走完了某个人的一生。
In addition to your beautiful family and everything else. Um, one of the byproducts of reading a bunch of biographies of dead people is you get to the end, and it's not that you got to the end of the book, you got to the end of somebody's life
故事的结尾。这并不阴暗，但它不断提醒你，我们在这里的时间是有限的，不要浪费每一天。我经常想到这一点，我对浪费哪怕24小时都感到无法容忍。
story. And it's not morbid, but you have this constant reminder that our time here is limited and don't waste a single day. I think about that, I'm, I have intolerant to wasting even 24 hours.
我认为这实际上是一种强大的动力，也是我所选择的职业带来的绝佳副产品。
And I think it's actually like a powerful motivator and just a great byproduct of the profession I've chose.
我想回到你身上，你为了冒险而冒险，我想这就是你在书中离开时所说的那句话：‘要做自己的主人’。
I want to go back to you, you're going, taking risk for the sake, for the sake of risk, you want to be your own man I think is the line that you have in the book when you leave.
嗯，嗯。
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
呃，我明白，我们马上会谈到巴尔巴罗，但你能再多说一点吗——
Uh, so I understand that, we're gonna get to the Ball Barrow, but can you say more-
那，那就是重点。你确实问我了——
That, so that, that was the point. You, you did ask me that question-
嗯。
Yeah.
...为什么我没有请杰里米·弗莱来资助这件事。因为我想要自己做点什么。
... of why I didn't ask Jeremy Fry to help fund the thing. It's because I wanted to do something on my own.
而且你觉得——
And you felt-
我曾经为别人工作过，我想完全靠自己做点事情。
I'd worked for somebody and I wanted to do something entirely on my own.
但你仍然是企业家，你仍然是——
But you'd still be the entrepreneur, you'd still be-
但那是个糟糕的决定，不过那就是我当时的感觉。
But it was a terrible decision, but that's, that's how I felt at the time.
那为什么不拿他的钱呢？
Well, why not take money from him?
因为我感觉我曾经和他一起工作过，他一直是我的导师。
'Cause I felt I, I'd, I'd worked with him, he'd been my mentor.
好的。
Okay.
我想自己去独立做这件事，大概是想向自己证明点什么。这真是个愚蠢的决定，因为我当时还是在让其他人资助我。
And I wanted to just go off and do it on my own. It was to prove something to myself, I suppose. It was a stupid decision 'cause I was still being, um, having other people help fund me.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以这是一个非常愚蠢的决定，人生中总会做出一些愚蠢的决定，而我从我的错误中学到了教训。
So it was a really stupid decision, and you do make stupid decisions in life, and I learned from my mistake.
因此，当我开始做吸尘器的时候，我回到了一个真正理解创业、曾经是创业者的人身边，而不是那些从未创业过的人。
And so when I started the vacuum cleaner, I went back to someone who, you know, understood entrepreneurship, who had been an entrepreneur rather than people who hadn't been entrepreneurs.
我们之前聊过这个话题，你和我之前就讨论过，现在出现了一种新的资本类别，它不是传统的机构风险投资。
We, we were talking about this earlier, you and I were talking about this earlier where, uh, there is now a new class of capital available to entrepreneurs that is not institutional, uh, venture capital.
这显然是——
That's obviously-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
……它仍然存在，但有很多像你这样取得巨大成功的人，我和迈克尔·戴尔也成了朋友，他对为创业者提供替代性融资方案很感兴趣。
... still exists, but you have a lot of people that have had incredible success like yourself, but I've become friends with Michael Dell and this is something that he's interested in, in providing alternative funding solutions, uh, to entrepreneurs
作为一位真正了解创业者处境的创业者——
from an entrepreneur who knows exactly-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
……而不是专业投资者，他们甚至不以追求更高回报为目的，他们已经拥有了花不完的钱。
... what they're going through that is not a professional investor, that is not, doesn't even, has, not trying to make more returns. They have more money than they'll ever spend.
他们真心热爱创业者，希望帮助创业者，我认为这非常重要。
They literally love entrepreneurs and want to help entrepreneurs, I think is really important.
是的。
Yeah.
我想聊聊那些错误，因为你总是这么说，我很喜欢。我这里有你的第二本传记《生命的发明》的第一版，我觉得现在名字改了。
I want to go through the list of mistakes, uh, 'cause you always say this and I love it. Uh, I have the, the, um, the first version of your second biography, which is Invention of Life. I think it's changed now.
是的，我记得你原本想把它命名为《失败比成功更有趣》或者《比成功更有趣》。
Yeah, I think you were gonna name it like, Failure- ... Is More Interesting Than Success or More Fun Than Success.
这说明我是个糟糕的市场人员。没错，出版商说得对，这本书卖不出去。
It shows what a lousy marketeer I am. Yeah, no, yeah, the, the publisher was, quite rightly said it won't sell.
那我们来谈谈你犯过的失败和错误吧……关于滚珠轴承的事？还有什么让你印象特别深刻的吗？
So let's focus on the failures and the mistakes that you made.... with the ball bearer? What still, like, sticks out in your mind about that?
一开始的时候，有人资助了它，因为我得提供担保。我姐夫提供了担保。
Right at the beginning, um, having people fund it, uh, help fund it, 'cause I had to put up, uh, a guarantee. Uh, my brother-in-law put up a guarantee.
担保是以你的房子作抵押吗？
The guarantee was against your house?
担保是以我的房子作抵押。
Uh, the guarantee was against my house.
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好的。
Okay.
幸运的是，那时我已经有一套房子了。我姐夫提供了担保，我们从银行借了钱。
Um, fortunately I had a house by then. Uh, my brother-in-law put up a guarantee and we borrowed money from the bank.
顺便说一下，当时的利率涨到了22%——
Uh, by the way, interest rates went to 22%-
。
.
……就在我们做这笔生意的时候。
... while we were doing that business.
是的。
Yeah.
那才是致命的。
And that was the killer.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯，所以，当我开始做滚珠轴承、也就是吸尘器生意时，我又借了钱。嗯，问题不在于借钱，而在于找那些不理解初创企业以及你必须经历的艰辛的人。
Um, so, uh, I, I borrowed money again when I started the ball bearer, uh, the vacuum cleaner business. Um, so it's not borrowing money that's the problem, it's involving people who don't understand, uh, startups and the pain you have to go through.
他们不理解什么？
What did they not understand?
他们根本不懂这门生意，不懂它究竟是什么样的。比如，那个滚珠轴承产品被美国的一名前员工和另一家公司仿制了。他们想追责他，给他点教训。
They just didn't understand the business. The, what it, what it's like. Um, for example, uh, the ball bearer was copied in America by an ex-employee and another company. And they wanted to go after him and teach him a lesson.
我说：‘不，不，不，让他去做吧。他想做就让他做，我们直接去美国，卖我们的产品和他竞争。',
And I said, "No, no, no. Let, let him do it. If he wants to do it, let him do it. And we'll come into America, um, and we'll sell ours against his.
他会帮我们铺路，我们再推出我们的原版产品。’但他们想要报复，所以我们花了很多钱去起诉他们，结果却没什么成效。所以，这就是其中一个例子。
He'll pave the way and we'll come sell our original version." But they wanted vengeance so we spent a lot of money trying to sue them, you know, to no good effect really. So, th- that's one example.
我真正学到的是，最好还是用自己钱投资。我当时没钱，只能借钱，但那笔钱是银行借给我的，所以也算是我的钱。
The real thing I learned is that, um, it's much better to put your own money in. I didn't have any money, I borrowed it, but I was, uh, it was money that had been given to me by a bank, so it was my money.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
尽管我得为此负责，我妻子还得把房子和所有财产都抵押出去。所以，我做决定时只为自己考虑，不用操心投资者会怎么想。
Even though I was on the line for it and my wife had to sign the house away, and all our possessions and all that sort of thing. Um, so I was making my decisions for me. I wasn't having to worry about investors or what they might think.
在做球承业务的时候，我总是这样，你知道吗？我得打电话给他们，问：‘你们觉得我们应该这么做吗？'
Which, which when I was doing the ball bearer business, I was always doing that, you know? I was having to ring them up and say, "Do you think we should do this?
我这么做可以吗？'
Is it okay if I do this?"
你似乎天生就不喜欢别人对你的事情有任何控制权——我不想打断你，但确实有这种倾向。
You seem to have an inheren- I don't wanna interrupt you. An inherent distaste for anybody else having any kind of control over what you're doing.
不，完全不是这个意思，我不是这个意思。
No, not that at all. That's not what I meant.
好的。
Okay.
很高兴你提到这一点，这并不是我的本意。比如，我有非执行董事，我经营业务的方式就像是一家上市公司，但实际上它是一家私营企业。
I'm glad you raised that. That's not what I meant. For example, I have non-executive directors. I run the business as though it was a public business, but it's a private business.
好的。
Okay.
我认为拥有优秀的人才给你建议非常重要。不，我的意思是，当我完全独自一人时，我做决定是不参考任何人意见的，尤其是在早期阶段。
And I think it's very important to have good people advising you. No, what I meant was, when I, when I, when I'm entirely on my own and I make a decision, I make a decision without reference, uh, certainly in the early days, to anybody else.
这个决定对业务来说是正确的吗？你会想，它会带来更好的产品吗？会卖得更多吗？诸如此类的事情。这非常、非常专注。根本不需要担心投资者。
Is it the right decision for the business? You know, will it make a better product? Will it sell more? All that sort of thing. That's ve- very, very single-minded. Didn't have to worry about investors at all.
得担心银行余额，但不需要担心投资者，这让我非常专注。而且，你知道，如果失败了，那就是我的失败，全都是我的责任。
Had to worry about the bank balance, but I didn't have to worry about investors, which made me very single-minded. And, you know, my, if it, if there's a failure it's my failure. It's all down to me.
而如果你有其他人，那么大家会一起做决定。所以我真的很享受不用依赖任何人的情况。
Whereas if you've got other people then, you know, other people are making joint decisions. So I really enjoyed not having anyone to turn to.
但在做球轴承生意时，有其他董事和投资者，所以我得担心他们怎么想。也许我不该在意，但我确实在意了。
Whereas with the ball bearer business, there were other directors, there were other investors, so I had to worry about what they thought. Perhaps I shouldn't have, but I did.
但如果你独自一人，你做决定完全是出于正确的原因。
But, but if you're on your own, you make the decision for entirely the right reason.
你认为在那个特定产品上，你觉得重要的东西，他们却没有注意到的是什么？
What do you think th- that you thought was important that they did not? For tho- for that specific product.
当我们开始销售球轴承时，零售商——首先，那时候还没有大型的五金连锁店，都是个人经营的五金店。
When we started selling the ball bearer, the retailers th- first of all, there weren't big, um, hardware ch- chains. They were individual-owned hardware stores.
所以那时候还没有家得宝或劳氏这样的店？
So there was no Home Depot or Lowes or anything?
没有家得宝，什么都没有。
No Home Depot, none of that.
好的。
Okay.
这会让生活容易得多。你可能不这么认为，但如果你在制造产品，这确实会让生活容易很多。所以我们不得不通过批发商销售，由他们卖给各个独立零售商。
Which makes life a lot easier. You might not think that, but it does make life a lot easier if you're manufacturing something. So, we had to sell through wholesalers who sold to all the individual retailers.
还有园艺中心，你去那里买园艺用品，它们都是个人经营的。因此，你必须派出销售团队，挨家挨户去推销产品。‘哦，是的，这周我们可以进一批。’
And garden centers, where you go and buy garden stuff, they were all individually owned. So you had to have teams of salespeople going round all these things trying to sell products to them. "Oh, yes, we can take one this week.
再看那边，那里再进一批。”这简直是一个完全疯狂的体系。嗯，我最初是通过报纸上的小广告直接向顾客销售产品的。小小的广告，人们会寄支票过来。
And see there, one more there." It, I mean, it was a completely mad system. Um, now I'd started the business selling direct to people through little adverts in the newspaper. Tiny little adverts and people would send their checks.
那时候，人们都寄支票。那时候还没有信用卡。
In those days, people used to send checks. It was pre-credit cards.
你在书中有一句关于这个的精彩话。你说：‘固守传统的专业人士，总是比独立消费者抵抗得更久。’
You have a great line about this in the book. You said, "The entrenched professional will always resist longer than the independent consumer."
是的，完全正确。这就是重点。这个观点的例证就是，当我去园艺中心和五金店推销时，他们根本不感兴趣，甚至嘲笑我。
Yes, exactly. So, um, exactly that. And that, that was the point. The illustration of that is when, when I went round trying to sell to garden centers and hardware stores, they were not interested. They actually laughed.
他们说："那个带着大红球的东西，没人会买。" 但人们却通过这些小广告购买了。所以我希望继续推进直接销售的理念，不通过中间商，也不需要销售团队。
They said, "That thing with the big, red ball. No one will ever buy that." Um, but they did buy it from these little ads. So I wanted to go on expanding the idea of selling direct and not having a middle person, and not having to have salespeople.
但他们说："哦，不，你看，你现在已经成功了，现在是时候正规化了，建个工厂，通过零售商按正常方式销售。"
But they said, "Oh, no, look, you're being successful. I think now is the time to do it properly and get a factory and, um, and, and sell the normal way through retailers."
你对这个决定有反对吗？
Did you push back against that decision?
有一点，是的。我说："听好了，我们现在做得不错，不需要借钱，也不依赖任何人，我们只是放些广告，看看会发生什么。
A bit, yes. No, I said, "Look, we're doing quite well now. No, we're not having to borrow money. We're not, we're not dependent on anybody. We're just pr- placing these ads and seeing what happens.
虽然生意可能很小，但其实还不错，能自给自足。" 但后来我们陷入了债务，债务越积越多，利率高达22%。
And okay, the business might be very small, but it's, it's okay actually. It's wiping its face." But then we got into debt and the debt got bigger and the b- the debt went to 22% interest rate.
我的意思是，一家公司能有5%或10%的净利润就已经算幸运了——
I mean, a company's lucky if it , if it can make, um, you know, 5% profit or 10% net profit-
是的。
Yeah.
但我们却一直在对抗22%的利息惩罚。
... but we're fighting a 22% penalty all the time.
商业中最好的领导者能够发现模式，但如果你看不到你的数据，就无法发现这些模式。
The best leaders in business are able to spot patterns, but you can't spot patterns if you can't see your data.
大多数企业只使用了20%的数据，因为80%的客户洞察力都隐藏在电子邮件、转录文本和对话中，除非你使用HubSpot。
And most businesses are only using 20% of their data because 80% of your customer intelligence is invisible, hidden in emails, transcripts, and conversations. Unless you have HubSpot.
HubSpot将你所有的数据汇聚在一起，让你看到真正重要的模式。因为你知道得越多，成长得就越多。这是一个永不失败的规律。立即访问hubspot.com。
HubSpot is where all of your data comes together so you can see the patterns that matter. Because when you know more, you grow more. And that is a pattern that never fails. Visit hubspot.com today.
这就是hubspot.com。还有另一件事发生了，你犯了一个错误，把……这是你的发明。这个‘持球者’是你创造的。你还开发了其他产品，但我们可以暂时跳过这些。
That is hubspot.com.So, there's another thing that happened where you made the mistake of assigning ... This was your invention. This is your ... the ball bearer was your creation. You made some other products, but we can skip over that for now.
然后，你申请了专利。这项发明具有可专利性，你将专利转让给了公司，而不是自己。
And then, you filed a patent. It was patentable and you transferred the patent, not to yourself, but to the company.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
然后，当他们把你赶出公司时，他们就占有了你的公司和你的专利。
And then, when they kicked you out of the company, they then took your company and your patent.
是的，是的，他们拿走了一切。但事实上，这一切也有一个积极的一面，那就是……我曾经向他们提议过吸尘器。
Yes. Yes, they took everything. But actually, there's a silver lining to all of that, which ... I had offered them the vacuum cleaner.
是的。
Yes.
但他们不相信它。
And they didn't believe in it.
这就是为什么我如此痴迷于人们——到目前为止，我为这个节目采访的每一个人，都从事他们所做的事长达极长的时间，从20年到45年不等。
This is why I'm obsessed with people, uh, so far for every single person I've talked to for the show, they've done what they do for an excessively long period of time, anywhere from 20 to 45 years.
我认为你在这类故事中一再看到这一点：人们实在太着急了。你会遇到这些幸运的意外。
And I think you just, you see this over and over again in these stories, like, you're- you're ... people are in way too big of a rush. It's like, you're gonna have these happy accidents.
你只要坚持得足够久，就会碰上好运，因为作为你所做事情的副产品——比如，你当时在研究球桶，对吧？
You just stay in the game long enough to get lucky, because as a byproduct of the stuff that you're doing, in the case of the ... you were working on the ball barrel, right?
而你因为要解决球承的问题，偶然发现了旋风原理。你当时……
And you discover what a cyclone is because you were solving a problem with the ball bearer. You had...
你根本不可能在一开始就能预见到，这项技术还能应用到另一个领域，然后彻底碾压所有竞争对手。
there was no way you could have predicted at the beginning that you could apply it to another domain and then wipe the floor with all your competitors.
你能解释一下，你当时在做什么，以及你是如何偶然发现旋风原理的吗？
Can you explain what you were doing and how you accidentally discovered the cyclone for the first time?
最重要的是，工程师要时刻观察事物，理解它们的工作原理，同时顺便思考如何让它们变得更好。如果我这样做，会不会更好？
The important thing is, is to observe things all the time, for an engineer, and work out how they work, and also, uh, incidentally, you're always working out how to make them work better. Would it be better if I did this?
有没有更好的方法来做这件事？所有的发明都是如此，它们并不是凭空出现的，而是源于你对某些事物的观察。
Isn't there a better way of doing that? And, um, and that, that always happens with all the inventions. They don't just come out of the sky. They occur because you observe something.
因此，好奇心、观察力和试图理解事物，是找到新方法的关键。吸尘器的发明也是如此。
So curiosity and observation and trying to understand things is the way to come up with new ways of doing things. And so it was with the, with the vacuum cleaner.
正如我们所说，我们有一个巨大的工厂，用粉末喷涂框架。由于喷涂的是开放式结构，大量粉末都错过了框架，飘散在空中，我们只能用吸力将它们...
As we said, we, we, um, we had this huge plant that, uh, that sprayed the, the frames with powder. A lot of the powder missed the frames 'cause it's, you're spraying this sort of open thing, so there's masses of it missing it. And you suck it ...
我们用一个巨大的布质滤网来吸走这些粉末，但滤网总是很快堵塞。
we were sucking it away onto a cloth filter, a huge cloth filter, which clogged all the time.
就像真空袋一样。
Like a vacuum bag.
就像真空袋。于是你明白了其中的联系，对吧？你建立了这种联系。那些聪明的人会使用一个巨大的旋风分离器。我曾询过价，但我们根本负担不起。
Like a vacuum bag. So that's ... you make the connection, you see? You make the connection. And what, um, clever people did, um, was have this huge cyclone. So I got a quote for one and we ... no way we could afford it.
于是，在几个周末里，我们自己建造了一个，高达30英尺。我们不得不在工厂屋顶上开个洞，把顶部的烟囱装上去。旋风分离器能将灰尘从空气中分离出来。
So over a couple of weekends, we built one, and it was 30 foot high. And, uh, it ... we had to make a hole in the roof of the factory to stuff the ... it has a chimney that's ... at the top. And a cyclone separates dust from air.
所以，在你我之间，有很多灰尘，而旋风分离器能通过离心力将它们分离出来。呃，所以……
So there's, between you and I, there's a lot of dust, and a cyclone will separate that by centrifugal force. Uh, so it's ...
如果你驾驶保时捷以极快的速度过弯，开得太快，就会冲进路边的沟里。灰尘颗粒也是同样的道理。
if you, if you drive at a, a corner of a road very fast in your Porsche, you, uh, if you drive too fast, you spin off into the ditch. Um, and so that is with a dust particle.
虽然我们之间的灰尘颗粒是漂浮着的，非常细小，但如果你让它们以极高速度转弯，它们就会被甩到边缘，掉进沟里。
A dust particle, though the ones between us are floating, they're very, they're very fine, if you make them go round a corner at very high speed, they get flung out to the edge into the ditch.
所以，旋风分离器是一个环形容器，你在其中对灰尘颗粒施加巨大的离心力，使它们全部被甩到外壁上，而唯一的出口是在中心的烟囱。
So, a cyclone is a cont- a circular container, and you apply enormous centrifugal force to the dust particles within it, and they all get flung to the outside wall. And the only way out is from the center, a chimney in the center.
这就是旋风分离器的基本原理。我以前也用过吸尘器，就像每个人一样，它们总是发出刺耳的尖叫声，却吸不干净东西。
So that's, that's the basic principle of a cyclone. So I made, I made the, I ... yes, I'd used vacuum cleaners like everybody else and they always seemed to make this screaming noise and, and, uh- ... not pick things up.
有一个周末，我在打扫房子，发现吸尘袋满了。不，其实不是袋子满了，而是袋子堵住了，这是稍微不同的情况。
And, uh, one weekend I, uh, I was cleaning the house and the bag was full. What ... no. It's that the bag was clogged, which is a slightly different thing.
总之，我到处找新袋子，家里找不到，于是我就打开吸尘器，倒空了袋子，然后用封箱胶带重新封好，再塞回去。可还是没有吸力。
Anyway, I, um, so I, I looked around for a new bag, couldn't find one in the house, so I, uh, opened it up, emptied it out, and then gaffer taped it back up again and shoved it back in. Still no suction.
于是我心想：‘真奇怪。’我以为吸尘器吸不起来是因为袋子满了，但突然意识到袋子其实是空的，问题出在别的地方。
So I thought, "That's odd." I thought the vacuum, you know, the su- it didn't suck because the bag was full. And I suddenly realized the bag was empty and something else was at play here.
我把它打开，撕掉胶带，发现袋子内壁上有一层细密的灰尘。我突然意识到，吸力是由气流通过袋子的微孔产生的。
And I opened it up, I took the gaffer tape off and opened it up, and there was a fine lining of fine dust around the inside of the bag. And I suddenly realized that the suction is created by airflow, which has to go through the pores of the bag.
但这些细尘堵塞了微孔，并不是袋子满了，而是袋子堵了。他们称之为‘袋子满指示器’，这完全是谎言，其实是‘袋子堵塞指示器’。
But this fine dust is clogging the pores. It's not the fact the bag's full, it's the fact that the bag is clogged. They call it a bag full indicator. That's a lie. It's a bag clogged indicator.
我当时非常生气，于是出门开车去商店买了一个新袋子装上，短时间内吸力恢复了，但不久后又下降了，而且又显示‘袋子已满’。
Um, so I got pretty angry about this and I did go, got out and went and drove to a shop and bought a new bag and put it in, and I had good suction for a short while, and then it dropped off again and it said bag full.
其实并不是袋子满了，而是袋子堵了。我对这件事非常生气，但随后我有了一个顿悟——这其实算不上什么高明的发现，那就是……
It wasn't bag full, the bag was clogged. Um, so I got pretty angry about this, but I ... and I came to a realization, it's not a very clever realization, that the ...
所有的空气都试图通过袋子上那些微小的孔洞，而这些孔洞非常容易被堵塞。
all the air is trying to go through these little ho- little holes in the bag and it's so easy for them to be clogged.
然后我想起了工厂里那个巨大的30英尺高的旋风分离器，我们用它来防止布料被灰尘堵塞，而是成功地通过离心力将灰尘甩出去，从未发生过堵塞。
And then, of course, I remembered the big cyclone, huge, 30 foot cyclone we built at the factory to stop the cloth getting clogged with dust. Instead, we were spinning it out successfully by centrifugal force. It never clogged.
于是我想到：‘为什么不能把那个30英尺高的旋风装置缩小，装进一个一英尺高的吸尘器里呢？’这想法其实并不高明。于是我用纸板做了一个原型。
So I thought, "Why don't we have one of those 30 foot cyclones inside a vacuum cleaner, you know, a foot high?" So it wasn't very clever, really. So I built one out of cardboard.
这其实非常聪明。
It's very clever.
嗯，其实也不是。
Well, not really.
不，这非常聪明。
No, it's very clever.
这不算聪明，但我很快在家里的厨房里用纸板和胶带做了一个。
It's not, it's not very clever, but ... so I built one very quickly in the kitchen at home out of cardboard and gaffer tape again.
我从我的立式吸尘器上取下袋子，换上一段软管和这个用纸板做的、仿照工厂里那个30英尺钢制旋风的微型版本，然后推着它走。
I took the bag off my, um, upright vacuum cleaner, replaced it with a bit of hose and this cardboard mini version of the 30 foot one we built at work out of steel, and pushed it around.
我推着的是第一台永远不会失去吸力的吸尘器。于是我心想，我这个点子不错，就申请了专利，并把它提供给了Ball Barrel公司。
And I was pushing around the first vacuum cleaner that never loses suction. Um, so I thought I had a good idea, so I filed a patent. And I offered it to the ball bearer company.
为什么……因为你们当时在做很多园艺产品，对吧？
Why ... 'cause you guys were doing all these, like, gardening products, right?
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
呃，我不太确定……你们在Ball Barrel之前，除了园艺产品之外，还做过其他不相关的东西吗？
Uh, I don't think you ... were, were you making anything else that wasn't related to gardening before this at Ball Barrel?
不。
No.
然后，我认为你主要的观察是，这不是一个好生意，因为它具有季节性。
And then, I think one of your main observations was, like, this is a, not the best business because it's seasonal.
太糟糕了。
It's horrible.
对吧？
... right?
季节性产品太糟糕了。
It's re- a seasonal product is awful.
是的，尤其是在英国。
Yeah. So, why don't we... Especially in England.
但人们一直都在买吸尘器。
But people bu- people buy vacuum cleaners all the time.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，你知道，每天都是如此，这正是我想要的。因为对于季节性产品来说，总会有一段空窗期，你根本卖不出去，然后春天来了，希望你能开始销售。
So, you know, every day, and that's what I want. 'Cause with- with a seasonal product, you know, the- there's- there's a fallow period where you sell nothing, and then spring comes along and hopefully, you know, you start to sell.
所以，你的销售情况受天气影响极大。如果春天不好，下的是雨季，你就永远补不回损失。
So, it's a- and, um, you- you sell... The weather makes a huge difference to what you sell. And if you have a bad spring, it's a wet spring, you never make up for that.
所以，如果你改进产品，你其实无法确定今年比去年是进步了还是退步了，销量是否增加，这一切都取决于天气。
So, if you- if you change your product to make it better, you don't actually know one year to the next whether it's an improvement or not, whether it's sold more. It all depends on the weather.
因此，你必须在冬天雇人，而那时你根本不需要他们；到了夏天，你又需要更多人手。这简直太糟糕了……季节性生意真是个噩梦。
So, you- you've got to employ people during the winter when you don't need them. And then the summer, you need more people. It- it's just a horror... Seasonal business is a horrible business.
避开季节性生意。
Avoid seasonal business.
所以我同情任何经营滑雪场的人……就这样。
So, I pity any one who runs a ski resort or... So.
所以，你就拿这个吸尘器来说吧，‘好吧，各位，我有了解决我们问题的办法。’
So- so you take this- this vacuum cleaner, right? "All right, guys, I have the solution to our problems."
是的。
Yes.
这是一个天才的发明，非常巧妙，尽管你一直说它不巧妙。你说‘我有个巧妙的发明’，他们的回应是什么？
It's a genius invention. It's very clever, even though you keep saying it's not clever. Uh, "I have this clever invention," and their response is?
他们的回应是：如果真有更好用的吸尘器，伊莱克斯和其他现有公司早就做出来了。
Their response is, if there was a better vacuum cleaner, who... And Electrolux and all the existing people would have done it.
所以——
So-
我喜欢你开头就提到历史会重复。
I love that you started our conversation that history repeats.
嗯。
Yeah.
我的说法是，人性会重复。我认为历史是押韵的，但人性在‘不可能想象一个与现在不同的未来’这一点上始终如一。
The way I say is like, human nature repeats. And so, I think history rhymes, but human nature is very constant in this idea of, no, I can't possibly imagine a future that's different from our present.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
不知为何，绝大多数人就是做不到这一点——
Just for some reason, the mass majority of humans just cannot do that-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
...就像多了一个思维步骤。而且显然——
... like extra, like step in thought process. And obviously-
呃——
Well-
...我觉得你在这方面很有天赋。
... I think you're gifted with that.
...而且人们假设专家总是做对事，或者以最聪明的方式做事。
... and there's an assumption that experts do things correctly or in the most clever way.
你从杰里米·弗莱那里学到的，这太荒谬了。
Which you learned from Jeremy Fry is ridiculous.
这不对。这不对。
It's not true. It's not true.
书里有一句很棒的话，说'杰里米·弗莱嘲笑了专家'。
And there's a great li- line in the book where it's like, "Jeremy Fry ridiculed experts."
是的，没错。嗯，不，他没那么无礼。但我的意思是，是的，他说过：‘不要相信专家。’没错。
Yes. Yeah. Well, uh, no. He- he wasn't that rude. But I mean, yes. He- he- he said, "Don't trust an expert." Yeah.
这又是一个非常古老的观点。安德鲁·卡内基——
Again, a very old idea. Andrew Carnegie-
什么？
What?
...也说过同样的话。亨利·福特也说过。这事儿早在——
... said the same thing. Henry Ford said the same thing. This is a hund- this happened-
是的。
Yeah.
...一百年前就发生了——
... 100 years before you-
而且你——
And d-
...你当时是在提建议。
... you were trying to make a recommendation.
你知道这句话是在哪里被重复的吗？
You know where it was repeated?
哪里？
Where?
是在疫情期间，是在疫情期间。
It was during, it was during COVID.
嗯。
Yeah.
我们遵循科学。
We're following the science.
嗯。
Yeah.
我们倾听科学家的说法。而我说：‘但我们要……不要……听科学家的话，但不要全盘照做。’你懂吗？
We're listening to what the scientists say. And I said, "But we... Don't... L- listen to what the scientists say, but don't do everything they say." You know?
嗯。
Yeah.
运用常识。
Apply common sense.
所以，你后来就……这很有趣，因为有一件事我确实不太理解，至少不太理解你的思维方式。你现在被赶出去了，失去了专利，你失去了……多久……
So, then you get... This is, this is something interesting 'cause this is one thing I don't think I understand, um, at least your- your thought process. Now, you're- you're- you're kicked out, you lose your patent, you s- lose... How long...
你为这个球轴承工作了五年——
It was five years that you're working on the ball-
是的，是的。
Yes. Yes.
所以另一个……所以你在C卡车项目上花了七年，然后又花了五年。
So another... So you did seven years on the C-Truck, then another five years.
是的。
Yeah.
现在你却在想，为什么……还有其他产品吗？你知道自己想发明，你想……我觉得你更喜欢发明而不是制造。但一旦你成为制造商后，你就爱上了制造。但你之前一直是发明家……
And now you're like, okay, why... Was there another product? You knew you wanted to invent. You knew you wanted... I think invent more than manufacture. I think now you love manufacturing once you became one. But you were an inventor for...
不，不是的。作为制造商，一个完整的制造商，无论是C卡车还是球轴承。
Well, no, no. As a manufacturer, and, uh, a full manufacturer with the C-Truck and with the ball bearer.
但在吸尘器刚开始的时候，你只是想发明——
But at the beginning of the- the vacuum cleaner, you wanted to just invent-
是的。
Yes.
……然后授权出去？
... and license?
是的，我——呃，是的。我想：‘我已经做了这一切，为什么不能只专注于发明和设计，然后授权给别人呢？’就像作家写书，别人去销售。
Yes. I th- uh, yes. I thought, "Look, I've done all that. Uh, why can't I just invent and design things and license them to other people?" Like an author, you know, writes a book and someone else sells it.
这让我很惊讶，因为你显然喜欢掌控，不想依赖别人。
Which, which is surprising to me because you clearly like to control. You don't want to rely on other people.
一个错误的决定。
A bad decision.
哦，原来如此，我就知道。
Oh, okay. I knew it.
那是个错误的决定。不，那是个糟糕的主意。
It was a bad decision. No, it was a bad idea.
好的。
Okay.
呃，但是——
Uh, but-
因为你得操心那个人那边的情况，然后就会出现各种可怕的故事。
Because you have to worry about what's going on in that other person's sho- and then th- there's like horror stories.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
他们试图兜售这些许可。
They're trying to sell these licenses.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
我们可以在书里谈谈这个，比如你可能会遇到一个特别热情的人，但两个月后你再回去，他就消失了。
And we can talk about this in- in the books because like you- you might have one guy that's really enthusiastic and you come back two months later and he's gone.
消失了，是啊。
Gone, yeah.
还有其他人——
And somebody else-
还有其他人则持相反观点。那简直是一场噩梦。我当时差点去当律师，因为我一直在处理许可协议，总在担心当对方取消协议时会发生什么，诸如此类的问题。
And someone else th- uh, thinks the opposite. And then it was a nightmare. And then I was b- becoming a lawyer 'cause I was doing license agreements all the time and then worrying of what happens when they- they cancel it and all that sort of thing.
当你之前提到你认为球具合作伙伴——也就是你的球具合伙人——犯下的错误时，你想到的是什么？他们想通过诉讼追着那个人不放。
What came to mind when you mentioned earlier the mistake that you thought- thought your ball bearer partner, your partners in the ball bearer had where they want to chase this guy down in lawsuits.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
不幸的是，在他去世前，我有幸在他家里待了三个小时。
Right before, um, he passed away, unfortunately, I got to spend three hours at Charlie Munger's house.
当时只有我和另外——
And it's me and other-
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
……另外两位年轻企业家。他整整给了我们三个小时的建议。其中一件事，他直接说：‘别把时间浪费在诉讼上。’他说：‘每次被人坑了，我都没去告他们。'
... two other young entrepreneurs. And he was just giving us advice for three hours. And one thing, he's just like, "Don't waste your time with lawsuits." He's like, "Anytime I got screwed over by people," he's like, "I didn't sue them.
我只是意识到，你不可能和一个糟糕的人做成好交易，于是我直接放下了。"他说："律师会把你榨干的。"
I just realized that's a... you can't do a g- good deal with a bad person and I just moved on." He's like, "The lawyers are going to suck you dry."
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
"这会分散你主营业务的注意力。" 就像你必须不断向前看一样。所以现在你开始想："好吧，我要做吸尘器。" 你第一时间想到了杰里米·弗莱吗？
"It's a distraction from your main business." Like you just- you- you just have to keep moving on. So, now you go, "Okay, I'm going to do the vacuum cleaner." Uh, you immediately thought of Jeremy Fry?
或者你最初有别的方法来启动这个生意。
Or you had a different way initially to- to start this business.
因为我之前一直和一些完全不懂商业的董事和投资者合作……所以我决定回到一个我非常享受共事、并且真正懂得如何创业、对此充满热情的人身边，
Because I'd been, uh, hav- having directors and investors who knew nothing about business- ... I thought I'd go back to someone who I really enjoyed working with and who clearly understood about starting businesses and was enthusiastic about it,
比如迈克尔·戴尔。
like Michael Dell.
你离开他公司之后的这五年——
The five years that you s- since left his employment-
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
你和他仍然保持联系吗？
... you still had a relationship with him?
哦，是的，当然，他还是我的朋友。
Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. He's still a friend. Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
是的，是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
于是你去找他谈，他立刻就明白了？
And so you go to talk to him and he gets it immediately?
是的，他立刻就明白了。我其实有两个想法，但……他和我都更对吸尘器感兴趣。
Yes, gets it immediately. I actually had two ideas. But the... he was... he and I were both more attracted to the vacuum cleaner.
另一个想法是什么？
What was the other idea?
另一个是——
The other-
是什么——
What was-
...另一个想法是，呃，我的意思是，现在他们已经有了，但以前当你打磨东西时，灰尘会四处飞散。
... the other one was, uh, um, I mean, they now have it, but when you sand something, the dust used to go everywhere.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我设计了一个装置——能收集灰尘的装置，有趣的是，用一个袋子或者一个小旋风装置，在你打磨或钻孔时收集灰尘。
So I had a device that- that collect- that collected it in a bag, funnily enough, or s- little cyclone, uh, while you were sanding something or drilling something.
我的意思是，现在它已经存在了，但当我50年前刚开始时，那时候还没有。但我们觉得这不算大事，只是个边缘性的想法，所以我们想做些更重要的事。
I mean, it exists now, but, um, when I started 50 years ago, whenever it was, the- it didn't exist. But we decided that wasn't, you know, big time. It was a- it was a sort of peripheral thing. So we want to do something important.
那么，不专注于制造，而是尝试先做出一个工作原型，然后走授权路线，这个主意是谁提出的？是你还是杰里米？
And then whose idea was it, let's not focus on manufacturing, let's try to create a working prototype and then take the licensing route? Was it you or Jeremy?
我觉得是我们俩共同的想法。我的意思是，我们俩都是制造商，他比我多得多。我们俩都说：‘看吧，我们本质上是发明家，那就专注于工程设计这一块吧。',
I think it was both of us. I mean, both of us have been manufacturers. Uh, he much more than me. And, uh, we both said, "Look, we're really inventors. Let's- let's, um, engineer. Let's just do that bit.
如果这个发明足够好，人们肯定会愿意授权的。嗯。
And if the invention is good enough, surely people will license it." Huh.
然后我们现在就到了——
And then this is where we now have-
妄想。
Delusion.
是啊。你得去应对那些非常难搞的人类。
Yeah. You have to deal with other humans that are very difficult.
不只是人类。
Not just humans.
呃……所以现在就是关键点了，这正是我提到的那本书改变我人生的地方，因为这时候你有了一个想法，却有着骡子般的固执——
Uh... So now this is the point, this is what I talked about where this book changed my life because this is the point where you have an idea, you have the stubbornness of a mule-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
...你还有执着。我也有许多类似的特质，我觉得你在这方面表现得更明显，也许我们会看到我的人生会如何发展。但现在这里是马车房……对吧？对于美国，我得查一下。
... um, you have obsession. I have a lot of these same traits. I think you have them obviously to a greater degree and maybe we'll see how my life plays out. Uh, but now this is the Coach House.... right? And so for America, I had to look this up.
我当时想：‘什么是马车房？’其实，我听过另一个访谈，他说这就像史蒂夫·乔布斯的车库。
I was like, "What the hell is a coach house?" It's actually like, uh, I heard another interview, he was like, it's like the app- the garage for Steve Jobs.
是的，Exactly。
Yeah, exactly.
他说：‘我在车库里工作。’他还说：‘我们管它叫马车房。’你有存款吗？你有债务吗？
He's like, "I'm working in the garage." He says, "We call it a coach house." Do you have any savings? Are you in debt?
你的财务状况是——
What is your financial-
没有，我有债务。我有债务。我当学生的时候就欠债了。
No, I'm in debt. I'm in debt. Um, I got into d- debt when I was a student.
你难道不明白这个想法有多不寻常吗？我没钱，还欠着债，却要去做另一个极其冒险的事……你连个能用的原型都没有。
Do you not understand how unusual that idea is? I have no money, I'm in debt, let me do this other super risky thing that I... You don't even have a working prototype yet.
没有。不，这真的只是一个想法。我有个小小的纸板模型。
No. No. No, it's just an idea really. Uh, I have a little cardboard one.
那请进入你的思维状态。当时是什么驱使着你？是愤怒？想要证明自己的渴望？还是对产品的热爱？那时究竟发生了什么？
Take me in your mindset then. What do you think was driving you? Were you... Anger? Like, the, the desire to prove yourself? The love of the product? What was actually happening at that point?
这是一个非常不寻常的决定，你整个帝国的未来都寄托于此。这是你人生中一个非凡的时刻。
That is an unusual decision to make, a decision that your entire empire now rests upon. That's an incredible time in your life.
嗯，我注意到一个每个人每天都在使用的、清洁家居的必需品存在一个问题。作为用户，我非常讨厌它，因为我们用的这种吸尘器袋子总是堵塞，然后你又得去买新的袋子，如此循环。
Hmm. Well, uh, I saw a problem with a product that everybody uses every day, a vital product to clean their homes. And I as a user, I hated it because we had this bag that clogs and then you have to go and buy another bag and so on.
但更重要的是，它的性能太差了。我的意思是，如果你有一个100瓦的灯泡，它应该始终提供100瓦的亮度。
But more than anything, it's... The performance is lousy. I mean, if you have a s- a 100 watt light bulb, it's supposed to give 100 watts all the time.
但这个吸尘器的灯泡一开始是100瓦，很快就会降到20瓦。这让人极度不满。
But this vacuum cleaner light bulb starts off with 100 watts and ends up at 20 watts pretty quickly. So it's deeply unsatisfactory.
所以我想到，如果我能解决这个问题，其他人也会愿意购买这个产品。这没什么实质内容，只是一个想法。
So I thought if I can solve that problem, I thought if I could solve that problem, other people would buy that product. It's no substance. It's just an idea.
你当时认为自己能解决这个问题的成功几率有多大？你对自己能成功很有信心吗？
What was the chance that you gave yourself a success that you could actually solve the problem? You were pretty self-confident you could?
没有。
No.
我们越来越疯狂了。
We're getting crazier.
不，当然不是，你根本不知道自己能不能解决。
No, of course, of course not. Um, you, you don't know you can solve it.
是的。
Yeah.
但你就是得去尝试。今天也是如此，当我们试图解决问题时，我们并不知道能否解决。
But you've just got to try. And that's true today, you know, w- when we're trying to solve, we don't know we can solve.
我们不知道是否能让电机达到每分钟13万转——
We don't know, don't know that we can make a motor get 130,000 RPM-
好的，我——
Okay. I'll-
……而现有的电机最高才1.5万转。
... when existing motors only go 15,000 RPM.
我想聊聊电机，让我来说明一下。
I want to talk about motors. So let me frame that.
你不知道……你知道的，你就是得去做。
You don't... You, you know, you, you don't know. You, you just got to do it.
好的，我想谈谈电机。不过让我先围绕这一点做个铺垫，这简直是最……你无意中说出了最鼓舞人心的一句话，比如‘不，我没有……’他说：‘没错，正是如此。‘不，我身无分文。’
Okay, so I want to talk about motors. Let me frame that, though, about that. That's like one of the most... You inadvertently said one of the most inspiring things, like, "No, I didn't have..." He goes Yeah, exactly. Exactly. "No, I have no money.
不，我还欠着债。
No, I'm in debt."
没错，就是这样。
Yeah, exactly.
只是一个简单的、看似荒谬的想法：我买的产品居然不能用，这简直无法忍受，我要自己做一个能用的版本。如果我做出了能用的版本，其他人也会买。
Just a simple flaky idea that it's intolerable that the product that I'm buying does not work, I'm just gonna make a working version. And if it make a working version, other people will buy.
你——
You-
说到这点，你确实该聚焦于那个时刻，因为想法太脆弱了，很容易被任何人轻易打消。
And to that point, the, the... You're right to focus in on that moment because, uh, ideas are so fragile and they're easily knocked away by anybody.
所以专家才是最危险的。
That's why experts are dangerous.
每个人。
Everybody.
这就是专家为什么危险。
It's why experts are dangerous.
专家，专家很危险。
Experts, experts are dangerous.
亨利·福特在他的自传中说过，我认为那本书出版于1910年左右：‘如果我想搞垮我的竞争对手，我会让大量专家挤满他们的团队。',
Henry Ford said in his autobiography, which I think was published in like 1910, "If I ever wanted to sabotage my competitors, I'd fill their ranks with experts.
他们太清楚为什么某件事行不通，结果什么事都做不成。',
They know so much about why something won't work, they'll get no work done."
是的，没错。没错。
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
他非常……你的理念和他的理念有很多相似之处，产生了强烈的共鸣。
He's very, you have a very... Your, your philosophy and his philosophy, there's a lot of like over- overlap and echoes to that.
历史总在重复。
History repeats itself.
人性。
Human nature.
如果你问人们想要什么，他们会说想要一匹更快的马，这种说法一再重复，每天都会发生很多次。
If, if you ask people what they want, they want a faster horse, you know, that, that, that repeats itself time and time again, many times every day.
你说得对。我在你的书里看到过，也在其他采访中听过，你是在要求人们去发明未来，但这并不是他们的职责。
Well, you made a good point. I he- heard another... And you said in the book, and I heard in other interviews, it's like you're asking people to invent the future. That's not their job.
是的。
Yeah.
这是你的职责。
That's your job.
是的。
Yeah.
你在做什么？
What are you doing?
是的。
Yeah.
让我们回到你刚刚提到的这个非常重要的人生阶段。你搬进了马车房，负债累累，身无分文，那么你是如何筹措资金的？
Let's focus back in on this, this, this very important point or time in your life that, that you just, you mentioned. So you, you set up in the coach house, you, you're in debt, you have no... more money. So how are you funding things?
我知道你妻子在卖艺术品，但你们是立刻去银行申请另一笔抵押贷款吗？你们到底具体是怎么做的？
I know your wife is like selling art, but, like, do you go immediately to the bank, take out another mortgage? Like, what do you actually do?
正是如此。我去银行申请了抵押贷款，杰里米·弗莱为其中一部分做了担保。我们说需要大约五万英镑，维持两年左右。
Exactly that. Uh, I went to the bank to take out a mortgage. And, uh, Jeremy Fry guaranteed part of it. So we s- we said we need, I don't know, 50,000 pounds or something for, to last two years.
所以他担保了两万五千英镑，我也担保了两万五千英镑，这样项目就启动了。
So he put up a guarantee for 25,000, and I put up a guarantee for 25,000. So that got the thing started.
为什么你们能以这么低的成本完成？因为你们唯一的开销就是时间吗？
Why could you do it for so cheap? 'Cause your only expense was your time?
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
是的，我在家工作，唯一的开销就是我的时间以及一些廉价的材料，我买不起车床或设备。
Yes, I'm working at home. Uh, my only expense is my time and a few cheap materials. I couldn't buy a lathe or equipment.
好的。
Okay.
我全靠一些小型的博世工具之类的东西手工完成。我用滚轮来制作旋风分离器。我去废品店买了几个古董金属滚轮，花了25英镑，就能用来滚制旋风分离器。
I was doing it all with little Black & Deckers and things like that. Uh, by hand. And I, I was making cyclones by rolling in rollers. I went and bought some antique metal rollers down at a junk store for 25 pounds, and I could roll cyclones.
你知道，它们的形状很特别，像一个倒置的圆锥体，然后把它们焊在一起。所以我所有东西都是手工做的。但我是能做到的，我的意思是，你真的可以什么都不花就能做成事。
You know, they're a funny shape, like a sort of, uh, upside down cone, and solder them together. So I was doing everything by hand. Um, but I could do that. I mean, it works. You, you can do things for nothing.
你不需要花很多钱。
You don't need to spend a lot of money.
你当时想，"我两年内一定能搞定这个。"
And you thought, "I'll be able to figure this out two years."
是的。
Yes.
花了多久？
It took how long?
五年。整整五年。而且我现在还在做。呃——
Five. Five years. And I'm still doing it. Um-
你目前没有处于……呃，没有太大的经济压力吧。
You're not under... Uh, you're not under great financial strain at the moment.
呃，实际上，我以为我能在两年内完成，甚至觉得一年内就能搞定，但我发现这里头有各种各样的问题。
Um, actually, I thought, I thought I do it quicker than two years, but I thought I do it within a year. But I discovered there were all sorts of problems.
而且，几乎任何想法，当你开始申请专利时，都会发现别人早就尝试过并申请了相关专利。
And also, with almost any idea, you find that when you start to apply for patents, that people have tried to do it before and patented things.
我们申请的专利中，几乎很少有——
There's very, very few patents we file where-
你绝对……那是一个，那是一个，那是一个……你必须得有可专利的东西，对吧？
And you absolutely... That was a, that was a, that was... You had to have something that was patentable, right?
因为——
'Cause you-
是的，哦，当然。
Yes. Oh, yes.
好的，因为你不可能……根本没有——
Okay, 'cause you could not... There's no-
是的，因为我们打算去授权它。
Yes, well, 'cause we were going to try and license it.
是的。
Yes.
所以我们必须拥有一个强大、有效的专利。
So, so we had to have a good, strong patent.
好的。
Okay.
我们确实拥有一个强大、有效的专利，因为我们偶然做了一个有趣的发现。
Which we had... We ended up having a good, strong patent because we, we made a, an interesting discovery by accident.
因为如果你做了足够多的实验，虽然你试图逻辑地进行操作，但有时会出现一些不合逻辑却奏效的情况，所以你必须不断尝试，运气自然会降临。
'Cause if you're doing enough experiments, um, you're trying to be logical what you're doing, but sometimes, uh, y- uh, something occurs that's not logical, and it works. So you've just got to keep trying. Luck will happen to you.
这就是为什么你如此信奉爱迪生式的设计理念，我记得在书里你说，尽管你喜欢和年轻人合作，但最大的问题在于教他们一次只改变一点。
This is why you're such a big believer in the Edisonian principle of design, where I, I think in the book you say the, the biggest problem you have with young people, even though you like working with them, is teaching them one change at a time.
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
记录下发生的情况。如果他们的本能是：‘进来，出问题了，我们改掉15个地方’，而你的观点是，你怎么知道这15个改动中哪个起了作用？所以此时你正在做……
Record what happens. They'll... If their instinct is, "Come in here, something's not working, let's change 15 things," and your point is, how do you know what of the 15 things you have done have changed? So at this point, you're doing...
你有很厚实的……因为我研究了你九年，很了解你。你一辈子都在动手干活，现在还动手吗？
You have thick... Like I know a lot about you 'cause I've been studying you for nine years.You've worked- you's been working with your hands your entire life. Are you still working with your hands?
呃，不怎么了。
Uh, no, not much.
好的。
Okay.
不，不。
No, no.
你的手指——
Your fingers are-
它们已经没用了，现在什么都做不了，得了关节炎。
Th- they're, they're useless. I can't do anything with them now. They've got arthritis.
是啊，但这就像是一个人经常举重，只不过用的是手。我心想：‘我完全没料到会这样——’你的手特别大，手指……和你身体其他部分不相称。
Yeah, but th- ... this is, like, somebody that, like, you know, lifts a lot of weights, but with their hands. I'm like, "I was not prepared for how robe-" Like, your hands are huge and your fingers are ... They don't fit the rest of your body.
不，这是工匠的手。
No, they're, no, they're, they're, they're workman's hands.
是的，它们不是-
Yes, they're not a-
事实上，你知道机场那个讨厌的指纹识别系统吗？对我没用，我的指纹都磨平了，根本没有纹路。不过，用手和脑一起工作其实挺有趣的。
In fact, in fact, you know, you know this wretched fingerprint thing at airports? It doesn't work for me. They're worn thin. There's no, there's no line. And it's fun actually, working with your hands and your brain.
这正是学校不知为何鄙视的事情。
It's something that, that schools despise for some reason.
这听起来可能对你来说很奇怪，也许不会，但我的整个工作都是数字化的，对吧？我读书，坐下，用连接电脑的数字麦克风录音，然后传到世界上。
This is gonna sound really weird to you, maybe it won't, but because my entire work is all digital, right? I read a book, I sit down, I record into a microphone that's digital, it's connected to a computer, it goes out into the world.
我不像那样，你知道，我只是看到屏幕上的数字在增长。我一直独自一人。
I don't, you know, I just see numbers go up on a screen. It's just, I'm by myself the whole time.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
我做的一件事，算是用手工作，就是坚持亲手编辑每一集的字幕。这真的是我逐句、逐词地修改，添加标点符号。
Um, I, one thing that I do, which is kind of working with my hands, is I've insisted on, I edit all the transcripts of every single episode by hand. And that is literally me going in there and changing a sentence or a word or adding punctuation.
如果我以后做其他事情，或者额外做点什么，哪怕只是出于乐趣，也必须是实体的。比如——
If I ever do anything else, or in addition, even just for fun, it has to be something physical. Like-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
……我不想只是哈——我感觉自己错过了什么。所以我试图通过亲手触摸纸张之类的东西来弥补这种缺失。这就是为什么我的书看起来是这样，而我不读电子版的原因。
... I don't want to just ha- I, I feel missing out on something. And I'm trying to approximate that by, like, physically touching, you know, pieces of paper. This is why the books look like they do and I don't read digital copies.
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
比如，我喜欢坐下来，拿着一支笔、一把尺子、便利贴、剪刀。
Like, I like, I sit down with a pen, a, a, a ruler, uh, you know, Post-it notes, scissors.
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
我觉得这儿就像手工课一样，但通过动手操作，我确实能获得某种奇怪的满足感。
Like, I feel like it's like arts and crafts over here, but there's just some weird, uh, satisfaction I get out of working with my hands.
不过我的手看起来和你的不一样——
My hands don't look like yours, though-
嗯嗯。
Mm-mm.
……来自这五十年的积累。
... from, like, you know, five decades of this.
我的意思是，在学校里，擅长动手的人——比如能修车、做水管工的人——常常被轻视，而——
I mean, uh, it's, it's something that's slightly despised at school, people who are good with their hands, who can mend cars and do plumbing and so on, that-
但我们所生活的整个世界都是物理的。
But the entire world that we inhabit is physical.
没错，正是如此。我的意思是，人类就是这样开始的。
Well, yes, exactly. I mean- That's how man started.
有人建造了这个——
Somebody built this-
是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah.
……还有我们所在的这栋建筑。
... and, like, the building that we're in.
对，对。
Yeah, yeah.
呃-
Um-
不，但我们想成为知识分子，不愿参与这些脏活累活。这真是个巨大的遗憾，因为我认为这就是为什么我们作为国家失去了制造东西的能力。制造业正在消失。
No, but we want to be intellectuals, and not get involved in the dirty work. Th- um, it's a great shame because I think that's why we've lost, as countries, the ability to make things. Manufacturing is vanishing.
制造业让美国强大，也让英国强大。工业革命就是如此。
For manufacturing made America great, it made Britain great. Industrial Revolution.
任何擅长制造的国家都会因此强大。
It makes any country that's good at it great.
没错，是的。嗯哼。
Great, yeah. Mm-hmm.
历史又来了-
History again-
对，对。
Yeah, yeah.
... 谈谈历史的重复。嘿-
... talk about history repeating. Hey-
嗯，嗯。
Yeah, yeah.
... 你认为为什么？我喜欢你刚才说的，呃……我们稍后还会回到这个话题，但你小时候在英国，那时候人们仍然记得丘吉尔和二战等等。
... why do you think? I love what you said, uh ... We're gonna go back to this, but you have this great thing that, uh, growing up in Britain at the time you did, you know, they still remember Churchill and World War II and everything else.
你就会想，‘我们学到并被教导的一件事是，我们不是弱者。',
And you're like, "Well, one thing that we learned and we were taught was, like, we're not the weak ones.
我们实际上能够在难以置信的艰难时刻坚持下去，即使看起来末日将至，也不放弃，最终能够挺过来——
Like, we can actually persevere through, through unbelievably difficult times where it looks like the end is near, and not give up, and actually come on the other side-"
嗯，嗯。
Mm-hmm.
……成为胜利者。' 我认为这非常重要。
"... as, as, as the victor." I think that was very important.
嗯，嗯。
Mm-hmm.
所以，你借了钱，每天做一个原型？两个？像是——
So, you, you, you've borrowed the money. You're doing one prototype a day? Two? Like-
是的，呃，每天一到两个，日复一日。
Yeah, uh, one or two a day. Yeah, day after day after day.
你在书里提到，你知道，‘我现在可以庆祝了，因为我的公司，嗯，每年收入大约三亿，’我想是在书结尾时，或者类似的说法。
And you say in the book, you know, "I can celebrate now because my company, you know, is, we're doing like 300 million a year," I think, "when the book ends," or something like that.
但如果我说，那些整天失败、满身灰尘和污垢回到家的日子并不存在，那我就是在骗你——
But I'd be lying to you if I says that there, there were days where I'd fail all day long, go in the house covered in dust and dirt-
嗯哼。
Mm-hmm.
……然后基本上躺上床时想，‘我可能永远都会不断做原型，却永远无法成功。’ 那段时间你内心的独白是什么？你是怎么说服自己不要放弃的？
... and essentially, like, get into bed thinking, "I may just go on building prototype after prototype after prototype and never succeeding forever." What was your inner monologue during that time? Like, how were you convincing yourself not to quit?
嗯，有希望，一种叫希望的东西。
Hmm. Well, there, there's hope, a thing called hope.
好吧。
Okay.
呃，期待。我不是说期待某件事能成功，而是指那种第二天投入实验、看看新实验是否更好、为什么更好、它会带我去哪里的兴奋感。
Uh, expectation. And not, and I don't mean, um, I don't mean expecting something to work. I mean the excitement of going in the next day and seeing if the next experiment is better, or, you know, why is it better, or where's it taking me?
所以，这是一段探索的旅程，很有趣。从外面看，这听起来确实很无聊、很让人担忧，等等。确实，当时很让人担忧。
So, it's a, it's a journey of discovery, um, which is interesting. I mean, it doesn't sound from the outside. It sounds really boring, and worrying, and all that sort of thing. And it, uh, true, it was worrying.
债务一直在不断增加，但我一点点地接近了，再近一点，再近一点。
The debt was getting bigger all the time. Um, but, uh, I was getting a little closer, a little closer, and a little closer.
虽然还没成功，也没做出产品，但我其实很享受这个过程，甚至享受满身灰尘的感觉。因为，你知道，我们的工程师自己做测试、自己搭建原型。
Hadn't yet made it work, and I hadn't got, got a product, but I was actually enjoying the process, even getting covered in dust. Because, you know, uh, I, I, our engineers do their own tests and build their own prototypes.
因为亲手制作原型的过程中，你会学到一些特别的东西。
Um, because there's something funny about the process of actually making the prototype yourself that you learn.
当它失败时，你可能在粘合或加工零件时就注意到了问题，这种切身的体验会推动你前进。
And when it fails, it may have been something you noticed as you were gluing it together or machining a part, that the, that sort of, um, visceral experience makes you get forward.
但如果别人帮你做了原型、别人做测试，你只看测试结果，你就不会有同样的参与感，也不会有如此彻底的理解。
Whereas if you, someone else builds a prototype and someone else does the test and you look at the test results, you, you haven't, you haven't got that same involvement, that same utter understanding of it.
理解。再次引用查理·芒格的话，他的核心观点是，认为比较优势理论被广泛传播实际上非常危险。
The understanding. Ch- again, quoting Charlie Munger, he, his whole point was that he thought the, that, um, the spreading of the theory of compar- comparative advantage is actually really dangerous.
因为你可以外包，比如‘哦，这个国家能制造，我们来做金融。’
Because like, yeah, you can outsource, like, "Oh, this country over here can manufacture, and we'll do finance."
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
他说：‘但试错中蕴含着知识，而且——’
He's like, "But there's, the, the, there's knowledge in trial and error. And-"
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
‘……正在制造的公司、国家，或者说，那个国家在制造过程中，学习速度实际上比你快得多——’
"... the company, the country or the, yeah, the country that is doing the manufacturing is actually learning at a way faster rate than you-"
对。
Yeah.
‘……因为他们一整天都在不断试错。所以——’
"... because all day long, they're just doing trial and error. So, it's"-
对。
Yeah.
... 现在他会说：‘那些带着理论而来的人的问题在于，第一层影响看起来没问题。',
... now he's like, "The problem with people that come with the theories is it's, the first order effect is fine.
你没有考虑，你只是忽略了第二、第三、第四、第五层影响，而——'
You're not considering, you're just ignoring the second, third, fourth, fifth order effects and-"
是的。
Yeah.
……从长远来看会发生什么。'
"... what's gonna happen over a long period of time."
是的。
Yeah.
我从未听说过谁读过这本叫《穷查理宝典》的书。我当时想：‘我甚至从来没——'
I've never heard anybody who was in p- this book called Poor Charlie's Almanack. I was like, "I've never even-"
是的。
Yeah.
……这样想过。' 我上过商学院，他们教了你所有这些东西，我觉得：‘这太蠢了。'
"... thought of that before." I went to school for business, and they teach you all these things. I'm like, "This is stupid."
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
我认为芒格在这方面其实是对的。
"I think Munger's actually right about this."
是的，不，亲身体验整个过程是绝对关键的。
Yeah, no. No, e- experiencing the whole thing is absolutely critical.
但那时你是逐日应对吗？你有没有允许自己去想未来会有多远……当时你真的只是关注眼前的事情吗？比如……
But were you, you taking it day at a time? Did you allow yourself to think how far ... And were you, was it literally just what was in front of you? Like ...
还是你在想，一个月后、两年后，这种情况会变成什么样？
Or were you thinking what this is gonna be a month from now, two years from now, during this time?
我当时在想，如果我能把它做成功，就可以拿去给那些生产有缺陷吸尘器的现有制造商看，他们的吸尘器袋子又差又臭、噪音大、灰尘多、价格昂贵，肯定会有人买下它。
Well, I was imagining that if I can make it work, that I could then go and show it to the existing manufacturers of these flawed vacuum cleaners with horrible bags in them, smelly, noisy, dusty, expensive bags, that someone would snap it up.
那就是我当时脑子里想的。这不一定会让我发财，但或许能让我摆脱债务。
That's what, that's, that was the, what was in my mind.And it wouldn't necessarily make me rich, but it might get me out of debt.
金钱和财务对你来说不是驱动力吗？
Money and finance is not a driver to you?
不，我当然得生存和生活。钱有时可以作为衡量你所做事情是否成功的良好标准，但并不总是如此，有时候根本不是。
No. No, I have to survive and live, of course. And, and money can sometimes be a good determinant of whether what you've done is successful or not. Not always, sometimes it's, it's just not.
所以，我并不一定是为了追求巨大的商业成功而开发产品。那样当然很好，但有时候你做是因为你想做，它可能只是一个小小的成功。
Um, so I, I don't necessarily develop products to make enormous commercial success. Uh, it's nice to do that, but sometimes you do it because you want to do it. It might, it might be a small success.
我认为你在公司建设方面的做法有一种非常简单而卓越的智慧，这正是我不断反复推荐你的书籍的原因，因为你的思维方式本身就有一种简单、优美、优雅的智慧。
I, I think there's a very, like, simple genius to your approach in company building, and I think it's, this is why I keep recommending your books over and over again, because there is just a simple, beautiful, elegant genius to the way that you
所以，这——
think. So, l- l- this is-
吹风机很可能就是这一点的很好例子。
The hairdryer's probably a good example of that.
我今天早上用了它。
I used it this morning.
哦。
Oh.
它非常好。
It's excellent.
因为我们当时在生产吸尘器、制冷产品和加热产品等，我们做了一个很小的电机，觉得如果能做出更小的电机，就能造出一款很棒的吹风机，取代当时那些笨重的大电机。这就是它的起点。
'Cause, uh, you, you know, we were making vacuum cleaners and, uh, uh, um, cooling products and heating products and so on, and we, we'd done this tiny motor, and we thought we could make an even smaller one, if we'd done that motor, we can make an
更小的电机，这样就能做出一款很棒的吹风机，取代目前那些笨重的大电机。这就是它的起点。
even smaller one, and that would make a great hair dryer, instead of those bulky great motors they have at the moment. So that was the start of it.
但每个人——
But everybody-
这些是通过反复试验发现的吗？
And these are discovered by trial and error?
嗯，是的。在吸尘器业务的早期，我们购买的是那些又大又重的吸尘器电机，这里没有，但你知道，它们很大，对吧？转速能达到每分钟三万转。
Uh, yes. Well... Well, very early on in the vacuum cleaner business, we were buying these big, heavy vacuum cleaner motors, haven't got one here, but, I mean, they're big, you know? And they go at 30,000 RPM.
理论上，电机转速越快，体积就可以越小，使用的材料越少，电气效率也越高。
And the theory is, the faster you make a motor go, um, the smaller it can be, the fewer materials it can have, and the more electrically efficient it is.
所以，很早以前，我们就意识到需要开发一种新型电动机，因为电动机这类技术一百五十年来几乎没有变化，还是法拉第的原始理念。
So, uh, uh, quite early on, um, we realized that we, we needed to develop a new type of electric motor, because electric motors and this sort of thing haven't really changed for 150 years. It's the same Faraday idea.
于是，我们这些从不制造电动机的人，大胆地想：‘我们来造一种新型电机吧。’所以我从英国的大学招募了一些学者，他们对电动机有深入了解，
Um, so we, um, rather cheekily, as, uh, people who don't make electric motors, we thought, "Let's make a new type of motor." Uh, so I recruited some people from British universities, uh, who were academics, who had, um, knew about electric motors,
我们作为非电动机制造商，开始自主研发电机，这个过程花了很长时间，整整十年。
and we started, as a non-electric motor manufacturer, developing our own motor. And it took a long time, took 10 years.
你们在这件事上也花了十年才成功吗？
10 years before you had success on that too?
是的，没错，没错。你可以说我们很傻之类的，但以前从来没人做过这种事，没人能让电机达到每分钟14万转。
Yes, yeah, yeah. And you can say we were being stupid and all that sort of thing, but no one had done this before. No one had done, made a motor go 140,000 RPM.
让我们跳回来，我们会来回切换——
Let's jump, we're gonna jump back and forth between-
牙科钻头，那个只持续几秒钟。呃——
The dentist, the dentist drill, that, that only lasts a few seconds. Uh-
所以让我们在公司的发展历史和你们现在的做法之间来回切换。
So let's jump back and forth between the history of building your company and what you're doing now.
是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah.
当你思考你们现在生产的产品时，你们是从……开始的吗？因为在我看来，如果我没理解错的话，你们是全球最擅长制造电动机的公司之一。
When you're thinking about the products you're making now, are you starting with... 'cause you seem to be, my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong, one of the best companies in the world at making motors, electric motors.
是的，没错。
Yes, yeah.
所以——
And so-
但是——
But-
我觉得现在，你们会想，还有什么？我们拥有这样的技能。公司已经有45年历史了，差不多吧。我们有这种世界级的技能。
... I feel that now, you're like, what else? We have this skillset. We have, the company's 45 years old, something like that. Um, what can, we, we have this, you know, world-class s- skillset.
有没有其他产品存在缺陷、需要更新，我们可以运用自己在制造电动马达方面的卓越能力去改进？这是否就是你们的产品开发流程？
Are there other products that we find deficient, in need of renewal, that we can apply our ability and, and world-class talent at building electric motors to? Is that the pro- is that a process of product development for you?
可以是这样。
It can be.
好的。
Okay.
我们曾有个绝妙的主意，就是做一辆电动车——
And we had the brilliant idea of doing an electric car, uh-
是的。
Yeah.
...因为，因为，我们——
... because , because, um, we-
它就在你的，呃，你的——
It's sitting in your, um, in your-
我们制造电动机，还制造过滤和冷却设备。
We make, we make electric motors. We make, uh, uh, filtration and, uh, cooling devices.
我们来谈谈汽车。
L- let's talk about the car.
我们正在开发电池。
And we're developing batteries.
我们来谈谈汽车。
Let, let's talk about the car.
所以我们想，‘哦，我们应该造一辆电动车。’
So, so we thought, "Oh, well, we should do an electric car."
这是什么时候的事？
When was this?
呃，2014年。
Uh, 2014.
好的。
Okay.
我看了看那些预测指标，它们说到2030年电动车只占2%。我觉得他们搞错了，这不可能对。于是我们就开始研发电动车。
And I looked at the, what the indices were predicting, and they said 2% electric cars by 2030. And I thought, "They've got that wrong. That can't be right." Uh, so we started developing an electric car.
顺便说一下，我们当时也在研发电池，这是我们至今仍在进行的一个新技术领域，所以这个电池——
We were developing batteries, by the way, a new tech line we still are. So the battery-
等等，你们生产——
Wait, you manufacture-
...电池——
... batteries-
...你们自己也生产电池？
... your own batteries too?
还没有，还没有，呃-
Not yet, not yet. Uh-
但你是想的。
But you want to.
我们确实想，是的。
We want to, yeah.
真让人惊讶，你们想掌控这一点。
What a surprise, you want control over that.
嗯-
Well-
我没明白这一点。
I, I didn't understand that.
是新型的电池，不是普通的。
New technology ones, not ordinary ones.
嗯。
Yeah.
呃，所以我们说：‘我们正在开发电池，电动机是我们的一项业务，空气处理是另一项。这基本上就是一辆电动车。’呃，所以我们开始研发一辆。那么……
Um, so we said, "We're, we're developing batteries, we've, electric motors are one of our things, uh, air treatment is another one of our things. That's pretty much an electric car." Um, so, uh, we started developing one. What...
然后，到了2017年，柴油门事件发生了。在头三四年里，特斯拉无所不能，做得非常非常成功。但没人注意到这一点。
And then, we got to 2017, and Dieselgate happened. So up, uh, the first three or four years, Tesla was everything, Tesla was doing everything very, very successfully. Um, but no one was taking any notice of that.
他们都觉得特斯拉只是昙花一现什么的，根本无视它，因为这对他们来说太不一样了。他们制造的是内燃机，而不是电动机和电池。
They all thought Tesla was a flash in the pan or something. They were ignoring it, because it was such a different thing for them to do. They make internal combustion engines, not electric motors and batteries.
所以，柴油门事件彻底改变了这一切。他们从公关角度，也因为柴油门引发的可怕反应，意识到自己必须进入电动车领域。
So, um, the ge- Dieselgate changed all that. They realized, partly from a PR point of view, but also this horrific reaction to Dieselgate, that they had to get into electric cars.
于是，几乎所有大型制造商都立即涌入电动车市场，推出了自己的车型。但他们卖一辆就亏一大笔。
So all, most of the big manufacturers immediately jumped into electric cars and made them. Uh, and they make a terrific loss on them.
但是——
But-
解释一下。
Explain.
电动车的制造成本非常高。电池极其昂贵，电池涉及的电子元件也很贵。而且，电池非常重。
Electric cars are a very expensive thing to make. Batteries are incredibly expensive. The electronics involved in the batteries are expensive. Um, they're very, batteries are very heavy.
所以这是一种非常不同类型的汽车，制造成本也高得多，比内燃机汽车贵多了。他们以亏损的价格出售这些车，背后有复杂的原因。
So it's a, it's a very different type of car, and very expensive to make. I mean, much more expensive than an internal combustion engine. They were selling them at a loss for a complicated reason.
汽车制造商的排放量——由法律管控——是基于他们整个车型系列的总体排放量。
Car manufacturers' emissions, wh- which are controlled by law, are based on their overall emissions from their range of cars.
所以如果他们有——
So if they had-
哦，不是针对单个车型？
Oh, not the individual model?
不是针对单个车型。所以如果他们有一款不排放任何污染物的车型，他们就可以继续生产那些大型耗油车辆，而这些车能给他们带来巨额利润。
Not the individual model. So if they had a, um, a model which didn't emit anything, they could go on making big, gas-guzzling vehicles, which they make a lot of money.
因此，他们愿意在电动汽车上亏钱，以便从大型耗油SUV或其他车型上赚回利润。而特斯拉和我们只是纯粹的电动汽车制造商。
So they're prepared to lose money on the electric car, uh, to make the money on the big, gas-guzzling SUV or whatever it is. Um, so, uh, but as a, Te- Tesla and us were just electric vehicle manufacturers.
特斯拉非常出色，已经有300亿美元投入了大规模投资。而我只是一个独立的小公司……在这样的市场环境下，我试图销售电动汽车，未来却充满不确定性。
Um, and Tesla's brilliant, and, you know, $30 billion has gone into a huge investment. I'm little company on my own,... and I have faced a very uncertain future trying to sell an electric car in that sort of, uh, setup.
而且，如果你的产量较低，又是一家新制造商，你的所有成本都会高出30%，因为你没有大量采购座椅、轮胎等零部件。
And, uh, if you have fairly low volume and you're a n- new manufacturer, all your costs are 30% higher because you're not buying very many, um, seats from the seat manufacturer or very many tires from the tire manufacturer and so on.
所以，你的所有成本都高得多。我们知道这一点是因为——
So, all your costs are much higher. And we knew that because-
你面临一系列结构性劣势。
You got a series of structural d- uh, disadvantages.
巨大的劣势。
Huge disadvantages.
是的。
Yeah.
特斯拉通过规模、实力和投资克服了这些问题。但我们没有那样的资金，也无法承担那样的风险，所以我们就放弃了。
And Tesla overcame that through sheer scale and, and might and investment. But, you know, we, we didn't have that sort of money. We couldn't take that sort of risk, so we stopped it.
你们在研发上花了多少钱？
And how much did you spend on R&D for that?
我们花了大约75万美元。
Well, we spent about 750,000.
七——
Seven-
呃，百万。百万。
Uh, million. Million.
哦。
Oh.
一千万，7.5亿美元。我老是用英镑计算。五百万，五亿英镑。
A million, $750 million. I keep working in pounds. Half a million, half a billion pounds.
好的，所以是7.5亿美元。
Okay, so 750 million.
是的。
Yeah.
那你们……你们的原型机现在是不是就放在你们总部，我想是在新加坡？
And you have... Do you have the, the actual prototype sitting in your headquarters, I think, in Singapore?
是的，哦，是的，我们那儿有一个。
Yeah. Oh, yeah, we got one there.
我们在新加坡有一个。
We've got one in Singapore.
有没有哪一辆是你至少能开的？还是说它们根本——
Is there any one that, uh, you can at least drive? Or they're just-
没有。
No.
... 它们根本不存在？
... they're, they don't exist?
我们曾经有一辆能开得很慢，但因为健康与安全规定，我们不能开出去……我们造了一辆最终的原型车。
There was one we could drive very slowly, but health and safety meant we couldn't take out... We built one of the final sort of prototype.
那辆车在哪？是在新加坡的那辆吗？
Where's that one? Is that the one in Singapore?
是的，不，不，不，新加坡那辆是模型。不，不，我们把它放在我们机场的某个机库里。
Yeah, w- no, no, no, that's a model in Singapore. No, no, we've got it in one of our, um, hangers on our airfield.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
你还会进去开它吗？只是随便开一开？
Do you, do you ever get in it anymore and just drive it around?
不，不，不。
No, no, no.
这会让你很难受吗？比如，你会愿意开一辆花了你7.5亿的车吗？
Are you... It's too painful? Like, would you get in a seven- a car that cost you 750 million?
我并不觉得——呃，大家都说：‘你肯定从那次经历中学到很多。’但我的回答是，我什么都没学到。
I don't th- uh, one of the inter- everybody said, you know, "You must have learnt a lot from that experience." And the answer is I learned absolutely nothing.
你什么意思？
What do you mean?
我的意思是，我确实……不，我的意思是，那很有趣，但我和我们——
I mean, it w- well, I did... No, I mean, it was- It was fun to do, but I, I, uh, we, we-
很有趣？
It was fun to do?
是啊，做起来很有趣，而且一半的人被其他制造商挖走了，另一半参与这个项目的人转去做吸尘器和其他东西了。
Yeah, it was fun to do, and, um, half the people were snapped up by other manufacturers, and half the people working on it came to work on and do, um, vacuum cleaners and other things.
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