爱彼迎首席执行官布莱恩·切斯基希望打造万能应用

人工智能发展迅猛，快得让人难以跟上。实际上，在ServiceNow最新的AI成熟度指数中，得分较去年下降了20%。但这没关系，因为AI不是短跑，而是一场马拉松。

AI is moving fast. So fast, it's hard to keep up. In fact, in ServiceNow's latest AI maturity index, scores dipped 20% from last year. But that's okay because AI isn't a sprint. It's a marathon.

今天你可能落后，但明天你或许就能成为领跑者。深入了解ServiceNow的AI成熟度指数，看看如何让你的创新速度与雄心相匹配。访问servicenow.com/aimaturity。

You may be behind today, but tomorrow, you could be a pace setter. Dive into ServiceNow's AI maturity index and see how you can innovate as fast as your ambitions. Visit servicenow.com/aimaturity.

家庭公路旅行总是别有一番滋味。

There's just something about family road trips.

车窗摇下，音乐响起，零食散落各处，还有

Windows down, music up, snacks everywhere, and

那些会成为多年内部笑谈的故事。

stories that turn into inside jokes for years.

而现在又多了一个让人喜爱的理由——为了一份能让全车人都开心的鸡肉三明治而停车。Culver's的新品系列，无论是酥脆、香辣还是烤制，均采用100%全白肉鸡胸，搭配清凉脆爽的生菜、熟透的番茄、 creamy mayo，以及恰到好处的新鲜脆黄瓜片，全部夹在烤过的布里欧修面包中。配上一杯清爽的冰镇雪碧，这顿午餐停靠点值得铭记。正是这样的美食让心情高涨，安全带也愿意多系一会儿。所以无论你去往何方，找个能让所有人聚在一起的停靠点吧。

And now there's one more thing to love, pulling over for a chicken sandwich that makes the whole car happy. Culver's new lineup, crispy, spicy, or grilled, is made with 100% whole white meat chicken breast, topped with cool, crunchy lettuce, ripe tomato, creamy mayo, and perfectly crisp fresh pickles all in a toasted brioche bun. Pair your favorite with a refreshing cold Sprite, and you've got a lunch stop worth remembering. It's the kind of meal that keeps spirits high and seat belts buckled up a little longer. So wherever you're headed, make a stop that brings everyone together.

查找附近餐厅或在线订购，请访问culver's.com。

Find a restaurant near you or order online at culver's.com.

把我们放进框里吧，尽管试试。那只会给我们突破的契机，因为下一代2025款GMC Terrain Elevation正在重新定义何为标配。至于期望，为何要满足它们，当你可以彻底打破它们？我们选择挑战的，就会全力以赴去挑战。

Put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of because the next generation 2025 GMC Terrain Elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard. As far as expectations go, why meet them when you can shatter them? What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely.

我们是专业级别的。访问gmc.com了解更多。

We are professional grade. Visit gmc.com to learn more.

大家好，欢迎来到《解码者》。我是The Verge的主编尼尔·伊帕特尔，《解码者》是我的节目，探讨宏大理念与其他难题。今天，我与Airbnb首席执行官布莱恩·切斯基对话。这是布莱恩第四次做客节目，他是我最喜爱的嘉宾之一，因为他显然对公司架构、设计和决策制定等事物痴迷不已。

Hello, and welcome to Decoder. I'm Neil Ipatel, editor in chief of the verge, and Decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems. Today, I'm talking with Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky. This is Brian's fourth time on show. He's one of my favorite guests because he's so clearly obsessed with things like company structure, design, and decision making.

你知道的，解码器那些事。去年秋天我们请布莱恩上节目聊创始人模式，这个热门词汇源自他关于极度细节导向管理风格的演讲。那天走出录音棚时，布莱恩告诉我他有个激动人心的大消息暂时不能透露。这个消息就是对Airbnb应用进行彻底重设计——采用醒目的新设计语言、各大城市由名人和运动员主导的精选体验，以及全新的服务功能，比如预订私人厨师和摄影师。你会听到布莱恩将这一切描述为对Airbnb的全面重构。

You know, decoder stuff. We had Brian on the show last fall to talk about founder mode, a buzzy phrase that was inspired by a talk Brian gave about his hyper detail oriented management style. And as we were walking out of the studio that day, Brian told me he had some big news he was incredibly excited for, but couldn't yet tell me about. That news was a ground up redesign of the Airbnb app with a striking new design language, new curated experiences in various cities, some led by celebrities and athletes, and a whole new services feature that lets you book things like private chefs and photographers. You'll hear Brian describe all this as a full scale rethink of Airbnb.

从单个房源在数据库的存储方式，到Airbnb为实现布莱恩五年愿景进行的架构调整，这些话题本身就能做期精彩的《解码器》。但如果你近期常听节目，就知道我特别关注Airbnb、Uber和DoorDash这类服务在新型AI助手和智能体普及后的命运。谷歌刚宣布了Chrome浏览器的智能体功能和研究原型，微软正大力推动实现智能体系统的核心技术，无数演示和测试项目正在展现下一代自动化技术的潜力。

Everything from how individual properties are stored in the company's databases, to how Airbnb is structured or changed in order to get to where Brian wants to be five years from now. That would be a great episode of Decoder all on its own. But if you've been listening to the show these past few months, you know that I'm particularly interested in what happens to services like Airbnb, Uber, and DoorDash as new kinds of AI assistance and agents get more popular. Google just announced new agent features in Chrome and in various research prototypes. Microsoft is pushing aggressively in some of the core technologies to make agentic systems happen, and there are lots and lots of demos and test projects out there showing off what the next generation of automation might be able to accomplish.

但这些都可能绕过服务提供商——如果你能直接让AI助手推荐度假房源、预约机场接送或私人厨师，用户或许永远不会打开那款精美的Airbnb新应用看到商业推广。我和布莱恩就此深入探讨过，这将成为科技商业下一轮高风险博弈，显然他已深思熟虑。当然，如果不问关于OpenAI和山姆·奥特曼的问题，就不算完整的布莱恩·切斯基访谈了。

But all of these things have the potential to disintermediate service providers. After all, if you can just ask an AI assistant to bring you vacation listings or get you a ride to the airport or book a private chef, well, you might never actually open that beautiful new Airbnb app and see all of the things they're trying to sell you to grow their business. So Brian and I talked about that quite a bit as well. This will be the next set of high stakes negotiations in tech and business, and it's clear he's been thinking about it a lot. It also wouldn't be a Brian Chesky episode if I didn't take the time to ask him about OpenAI and Sam Altman.

布莱恩与山姆私交甚笃，曾参与山姆被解雇又复职的风波，还引荐了山姆与乔尼·艾维相识——正是这次会面让乔尼接管了OpenAI所有设计工作。我尽力试探布莱恩能否透露他们的合作内容，效果如何就交给你评判了。本期信息量巨大。

Brian is close friends with Sam and he was part of the drama that saw Sam fired and brought back to the company. He also introduced Sam and Johnny Ive, an introduction that led to Johnny taking over all design responsibility at OpenAI. So I did my best to see if Brian would reveal anything about what they're all working on. You can tell me how well I did at that. There's a lot going on in this one.

布莱恩曾用建筑师与总承包商的比喻来解释产品经理与项目经理的区别，这简直是《解码器》节目的完美素材。好了，有请Airbnb CEO布莱恩·切斯基。

At one point, Brian explains the difference between a product manager and a program manager by talking about architects and general contractors. It's pure decoder bait through and through. Okay. Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky. Here we go.

布莱恩·切斯基，Airbnb联合创始人兼CEO，欢迎第四次做客《解码器》。

Brian Chesky, you're the cofounder and CEO of Airbnb. Welcome back to your fourth time on Decoder.

很荣幸再次参加。

I love being here.

非常期待这次对话。我一直很享受与你探讨管理哲学、企业运营和战略规划，你的理念与我们接触的大多数人截然不同，总是充满洞见。而且今天还有重磅消息。

I am very excited to talk to you. I've always enjoyed talking to you about management, running companies, and strategy. You have very different ideas from a lot of the the folks we talk to. It's always interesting. And there's news.

没错。我正想谈这个。去年十月你录完节目等电梯时说过'有件大事迫不及待想分享'，现在谜底揭晓了。

Yeah. There's big news that I wanna talk about. The last time you were on the show last October, as we were walking out and you were getting on the elevator, you said, I've got something really big. I can't wait to come back and talk to you about it. And that happened.

是的。你们推出了Airbnb体验项目，上线了各类新服务。快告诉我们这些变革的内幕。

It Yeah. You've launched Airbnb experiences. You've launched all kinds of new services on Airbnb. Tell us what's going on.

是的。简单来说，这个故事始于十七年前，当时我们接待了三位客人度过第一个周末，这真正激发了创建这家公司的灵感。但非凡的事情发生了——三位陌生人走进我们家，我们把空间租给了他们。

Yeah. I mean, the story basically kind of just the short version. It started seventeen years ago because we hosted these three guests this first weekend, and that really inspired the creation of this company. But something remarkable happened. These three strangers came into our home, and we rented our space to them.

我们还和他们共度了整个周末。挥手告别时，记得乔和我曾是室友，我们意识到这里蕴藏着更大的构想。但更大的构想不仅是出租空间，而是当陌生人相遇时会发生什么，以及能否建立一个让人们不仅能共享住所、更能分享生活各部分的平台。多年后当爱彼迎成功后，人们问我：爱彼迎的下一步是什么？

We also hung out with them all weekend. As we're waving them goodbye, remember Joe and I were roommates, we're thinking it was a bigger idea here. But the bigger idea was not merely just renting your space. The bigger idea was what happens when strangers come together, and what if you could build this people to buildable marketplace where people could share not only their home, but every part of their life. Years later, once Airbnb took off, people asked me, What's next for Airbnb?

你们已经将人们最大的资产——房屋——货币化了。下一步是汽车吗？我开始思考：我认为人们生活中最大的资产不是房子，而是时间。有本关于亚马逊的书叫《万物商店》，但或许该加个副标题叫《装在纸箱里的万物商店》。它并非真正的万物。

You've already monetized people's biggest asset, their home. What's next, their car? I started thinking to myself, I don't think the biggest asset people's lives is home, it's their time. There was a book written about Amazon called The Everything Store, but it probably should be parenthetically called The Everything in a Cardboard Box Store. It's not actually everything.

事实上，越来越多的经济形态正转向服务乃至体验。我们认为这对公司是绝佳机遇——因为旅行时住酒店的人比住民宿多，而酒店最吸引人的正是其丰富的服务和舒适度。我们想：如果能在民宿提供所有酒店服务甚至更多呢？进而想到：人们旅行为体验事物，但即便通过爱彼迎寻求本地体验，要参与真正酷炫的原生体验仍很困难。

In fact, more and more of the economy is moving to services and eventually experiences. We just thought this was an incredible opportunity for the company, Because when you travel, more people stay in hotels than homes. One of the top reasons they like hotels is there's a lot of services, there's a lot of comforts. We thought, what if we could provide all the services in a hotel and more at a home? And then we thought, people travel to do things, but it's hard to do really cool authentic things, even though people travel in Airbnb to have local travel experiences.

因此我们希望以全新方式重启爱彼迎体验。我们宣布了几件事：首先是爱彼迎服务，让住宿更特别——你可以预约厨师上门、按摩师、私人教练或摄影师。

And so we wanted to bring back Airbnb experiences, but in a whole different way. What we've announced is a few things. Number one, Airbnb services, which make your stay more special. You can Airbnb a chef to come to your home. You can Airbnb a masseuse, a personal trainer, a photographer to take your photos.

接着我们重新推出了爱彼迎体验。这些由全球最有趣的人带领，你可以参与超酷的活动。第三件事正如他所说：我们要极致简化流程——原本我们的应用只设计了一个功能：预订房源。

Then we relaunched Airbnb Experiences. These are some of the most interesting people in the world. You can do these really cool activities with them. Then the third thing we did, as he said, we want to make it really easy. Our app was designed to do one thing, which is book a home.

我们彻底重构了应用，使其不仅能订房，还能预约服务和体验。在此过程中，我们重建了整个技术栈，将应用升级为可预订几乎任何事物的平台，同时创造了一套全新的设计语言——摒弃了十年前流行的扁平化设计，采用这种立体、鲜活、充满生命力的界面，这标志着全新公司的开端。

We had to completely reimagine our app to not only book a home, but book a service and experience. Along the way, we basically rebuilt our technology stack, rebuilt an entire app to become a platform, to be able to book almost anything. In the process, we also created a whole new design language. We've departed from this flat design that I think is being popular about 10 ago on the Internet with this really cool, robust, dimensional, vibrant interface. It's kind of the beginning of a whole new company.

我认为这只是爱彼迎新篇章的起点。

And I think this is just the beginning of the next chapter for Airbnb.

关于设计方面我有很多问题，这个稍后再谈。你提到将人们的时间货币化以及应用内的服务，从厨师切入很有意思——毕竟私人厨师本身就是一个成熟行业。

I have a lot of questions for you about the design aspects of this. We're we're gonna come to that. You know, it's interesting you talk about monetizing people's time and then the actual services in the app. I think you're starting with chefs. You know, private chefs are an industry.

是的。这不同于'我厨艺不错就来你家服务'，就像'我有间空房出租几天'那样随意。这里存在一定差距——你们预期多数服务由通过爱彼迎获客的专业人士提供，还是最终普通人也能利用空闲时间提供任意服务？

Yeah. And that's not it's not like I am a pretty good cook, so I will come to your house in a way that I might have a room in my apartment and I'll let you rent that for a day or two. There's a little bit of a gap there. Are you expecting most of the services to be provided by professionals who use Airbnb for Discovery, or you expecting it eventually just be regular people providing whatever things they wanna do in their extra time?

我认为这确实取决于具体情况。对于服务类项目，主要面向专业人士，我们将为他们提供一个平台。我们会审核每个人的资质，确保他们持有执照和相关认证。但需要记住的是，服务业在美国经济中占据重要地位。许多从业者收入不稳定，需求波动大，主要依赖口碑传播，缺乏完善的信任体系来辨别优质服务者。

I think it really depends. I think with services, it's primarily gonna be people that are professionals, and we're going to give them a platform. We vet everyone, we make sure they have licenses, we make sure they have certifications. But it's good just to remember, a huge part of the American economy is the service economy. I think a lot of the people in services have fairly unsteady incomes, they have unsteady demand, it's very much word-of-mouth, you don't know who's great, there's not a system of trust.

我们建立的是一套信任体系，通过审核确保服务者足够优秀，让品牌成为质量的保证——这正是我们的目标。体验类项目则有所不同，我们追求有趣的主办者，但很多体验活动的主办人此前并无相关经验。比如我刚参加过一个摄影导览，主办者是位拥有百万Instagram粉丝的摄影师，虽非专业导游，却能带你探索Soho区的熨斗大厦建筑群并传授摄影技巧。

I think what we've created is a system of trust where we can vet everyone and make sure they're really excellent and our brand stands for quality, and that's really where we want to go. I think experience is a little different, because we want really interesting people, but many of the experiences, the host, have never done this before. For example, I was just right before this on a photo tour with a person who's a photographer, he's got a million followers on Instagram for photography, but he's not a tour guide. But he takes you around Soho and looking at all the flat iron architecture and teaches you how to take photos. Now, he's not a professional tour guide.

这类人此前从未涉足该领域。我认为这创造了让技能变现的机会。未来或许还能进一步扩展到更休闲化的群体。

He's never done this before. And so I think there is this opportunity to take people with a skill and be able to monetize it. I think down the road, there could be ways to take this to even more casual people as well.

确实。你知道，我的经历很典型——2016年在卡茨基尔买别墅比在纽约买公寓还便宜，于是我们买了栋山间别墅。最初自己经营Airbnb，疫情爆发后阴差阳错在那里住了两年。这故事在纽约人耳中都快听出茧子了，外地人可能觉得匪夷所思。

Yeah. Because that you know, I'm one of these people in this is a very common story in New York where it was cheaper to buy a house in the Catskills in 2016 than to buy an apartment in New York. So we bought a house in the Catskills. We ran it as our own Airbnb for a minute, and then the pandemic happened, and we moved into that house by accident for two years. This is a very cliche story.

向听众们致歉，这剧情在本地已重复千万遍。后来我们搬离时，考虑到已有孩子，就不再想继续经营副业当房东了。

I apologize to the audience. If you live in this city, you've heard this story a million times, and everywhere else, it sounds insane. But then we moved in it, and then we left. And as we left, I thought, well, now I have a kid. I'm not gonna, like, have this side hustle of running this Airbnb.

现在交给专业管理公司打理，他们抽成合理，运营状况良好。这其实反映了Airbnb的现状——很多房源已由专业机构代管，因为他们的服务更稳定专业。你们预计服务类目也会出现这种中间层吗？

And we turned it over to a professional management company, and they just run the Airbnb for us. And it's great. And they take a cut, and it's fine, and it seems to be going well. But there's a part here where that's a lot of what Airbnb has become. Right?

实际体验虽然来自民宅，但多由专业供应商管理，他们能保持服务一致性，代表房主运营平台。

The actual experience is people's homes, but they're managed by professional vendors because they do a good job of it. They're consistent. They manage the platform on behalf of whoever owns the houses. Are you expecting that layer to emerge in the services category as well?

难下定论，但我认为不会。需要说明的是——人们提到Airbnb时大多联想到整租空置房源，这确实是我们每日主要业务。每晚有近400万人入住，绝大多数房源没有房东在场，其中不少委托第三方管理。

Hard to say, but I don't anticipate it. There's a couple points there. One of the things, and one of the reasons we launched is, and I could go in really interesting places with this conversation, but When people think of Airbnb, most people think of homes, and they think of empty homes. Homes you get all to yourself. That is most of what we do every single day.

我期望未来Airbnb能更接近真实社区，促进住客与房东的实质连接。服务类目不太可能工业化——聘请私厨或参加体验活动时，你面对的始终是真实个体。公司可提供平台支持，但核心仍是人对人的共享经济。

We have nearly 4,000,000 people a night staying in homes, the vast majority of the homes, the host isn't there, and a large percent of them are using third party services to help them. Not the majority, but a bunch of them. I think that in the future, I want Airbnb to be a bit more of a real community, where you're actually connecting with the host. I think with services, I don't think these things get industrialized. If you want to get a chef to come to your home, you're still going to get a chef.

放眼当下，硅谷科技行业正处在非常有趣的阶段。

It's going to be a real person. If you're going go on and experience with somebody, it's still going to be a real person. I think we, the company, can provide a lot of that platform layer. But I do think that most of this is going to be peer to peer, person to person. I also think that if I were to zoom out for a second, we're in a really interesting time in the world with Silicon Valley and tech.

我听说Z世代平均每天花四小时在社交媒体上。我认为AI是一个极其令人兴奋的工具，很可能显然是我们一生乃至多代人中最强大的发明。或许可以这样理解AI——它是一种加速器，加速了我们已然踏上的道路。而我们当前的道路就是人们花大量时间在设备上，大量时间生活在数字世界，大量时间消费内容。

I heard the average Gen Zer is spending four hours a day on social media. I think with AI, it's an incredibly exciting tool, probably obviously the most powerful tool developed in our lifetime, or many lifetimes. Maybe the way to think about AI, one way to think about it is an accelerator. It's an accelerator of the path we're probably already on. And the path we're already on is people spending a lot of time on devices, a lot of time living in a digital world, a lot of time consuming content.

我记得十五年前，甚至二十年前，有个叫社交网络的东西。有趣的是这个词现在已不复存在，因为2012年左右，你的朋友变成了粉丝，社交网络变成了社交媒体。于是连接变成了表演，人际关系变成了准社交关系。我并非说这是坏事，但显然现在存在一个空缺——人们生活中缺少在现实世界生活、与真人建立真实联系、获得真实体验和真实记忆的部分。

I remember more than fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, was this thing called social networking. It's funny, that term doesn't really exist anymore, because around 2012, your friends became your followers, and networking became social media. So then connecting became performing, and the relationships became parasocial. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but what's clear is that there's now a void. There's a void in people's lives, which is people living in the real world, making real connections with real people, having real experiences, real memories.

这正是我想带领公司发展的方向。我真心希望爱彼迎能逐渐成为现实世界中的社交网络。我们已经让这些体验变得非常社交化。我认为达芬奇可以成为人们相遇、连接的平台，围绕人们的热情、技能和时间构建整个生态系统。

This is where I'd like to take the company. I really want Airbnb almost to start to feel like more of a social network in the real world. We've made these experiences really social. I think of DaVinci can be the platform to meet one another, to connect, and just to, like, build this entire ecosystem around people, their passions, their skills, their time.

所以你们从10项服务开始试点。厨师是首批对吧？其他的就像你在主题演讲中提到的，基本上对标了酒店业务。对吧？这些都是酒店提供的服务。

So you're starting with 10 services. I think chefs are the first. And then the rest are, you know, you as you announced at the keynote, you you basically pointed at hotels. Right? Here's all the stuff hotels do.

还有些其他类别比如摄影师。你们是怎么选出这10项的？

And then there's some other stuff, like photographers. Yeah. How'd you pick those 10?

我们主要通过对房客进行大量调研，询问他们想在爱彼迎使用哪些服务。餐饮类需求很突出，比如厨师上门烹饪和餐饮服务。我们注意到人们预订的是整套房子，而这些房子都配有超大厨房。

We basically just did a bunch of surveys with our guests and asked them, like, what kind of services do you want to use for your Airbnb. There were a few around food. Chefs prepared meals and catering. And basically noticed is people are booking entire homes. The homes come with really big kitchens.

不是所有人都想下厨，所以厨房经常闲置。那如果有人能来为你做饭呢？摄影在爱彼迎是非常受欢迎的需求，因为我们平台有大量摄影师资源。当你在爱彼迎看到那些拍摄精美的房源照片时，背后是我们数千名专业摄影师的网络。

Not everyone wants to cook, and so the kitchen is often not used. So what if somebody could come make food for you? Photography was a very popular request on Airbnb, because we have a lot of photographers in our network. All these homes on Airbnb. When you see these really wonderful homes on Airbnb that look really well photographed, we have a network of thousands of professional photographers.

我们想，如果让这个网络为你的旅程提供摄影服务呢？注意到Instagram上最多人分享的是旅行照片，TikTok上也是旅行视频。但人们很难拍出专业级照片。比如全家出游时，除非有人不入境，否则很难拍全家福。

We thought, what if we allowed that network to take photos on your trip? We noticed one of the most shared types of photos on Instagram, or even videos on TikTok, are travel. Travel photos, travel experiences. But people really struggle to take really good photos. One of the problems if you're traveling with your family, you can't really take a family photo unless one of you is not in it, unless you give her camera to somebody.

至于美甲、化妆、美发服务——其实很多人是为婚礼等特殊场合旅行，这些服务需求很大但很难解决。想象你从纽约去芝加哥，要怎么在当地找到这些服务？

Then we thought about with nails, makeup, hair, why would we do those? Well actually, a lot of people travel for special occasions, like weddings or events. And so a lot of people need to have these services, and it's really difficult. Let's just imagine you live in New York, and you're going to Chicago, and you need get all these services. How would you actually find them?

这就是我们的起点。未来或许能提供数百种服务。真正的问题是：爱彼迎有天会超越旅行领域吗？你能用它寻找自己城市的服务吗？

This was kind of where we started. I think eventually, like, who knows? There could be literally hundreds of services we can offer. The real question is, could Airbnb one day go beyond travel? Could you use Airbnb to find services in your own city?

而且我不明白为什么这在未来不可能实现。

And I don't see why that's not possible down the road.

我们刚请了优步的达拉上节目。他谈到该应用类似的转型。我，你知道，我把优步看作是一个按钮，能在世界任何地方给你叫来一辆丰田凯美瑞，这原本是非常困难的。是的。要实现这一点很不容易。说起来简单。

We just had Dara from Uber on the show. He was talking about a similar shift for that app. I, you know, I think of Uber as the button that just brings you a Toyota Camry anywhere in the world, which was very difficult Yeah. To pull off. It's a simple thing to say.

但做起来非常难。而现在，优步正朝着‘我们希望你每天使用这个应用’的方向发展。我们希望你预约行程，与这个平台建立持续的关系，而不是‘我需要一辆丰田凯美瑞，我要按下这个按钮’。听起来你们也在做类似的转变。

It's very hard to do. And now, you know, Uber is moving towards, we want you to use the app every day. We want you to schedule rides and have this ongoing relationship with this platform as opposed to, I need a Toyota Camry. I'm gonna push this button. It sounds like you're making a similar move.

对吧？现在人们一年可能只用爱彼迎几次旅行。你们希望人们每天都使用它。

Right? You might use Airbnb a couple times a year now as you travel. You want people to use it every day.

最终，我们真正想做的是在人们的生活中发挥作用，并能比任何人都更好地解决问题。如果我们能做到，我们就想去做。目前，人们每年用我们预订一两次住宿，也就是旅行时订个房子。但事实证明，我们已经完成了90%的工作，可以扩展到其他100个业务领域。不是说建立这些业务不需要大量工作，但从平台角度来看，我们已经建立了这个信誉体系。

Ultimately, what we really wanna do is, like, just be useful in people's lives and be able to solve problems better than anyone else. If we can do that, we wanna do that. And, like, right now, people use us to book one thing once or twice a year, which is book a home and you travel once or twice a year. It turns out, though, that we've done 90% of the work to be able to go into 100 other businesses. Not to say there's not a lot of work to build those businesses, but from a platform standpoint, we've built this reputation system.

我们有这些非常完善的个人资料。我们有2亿已验证的身份。每年我们处理超过900亿美元的资金流动。我们拥有世界上最好的设计应用团队之一，能够使这个产品具有扩展性。我密切关注过亚马逊。

We have these really robust profiles. We have 200,000,000 verified identities. We handle more than $90,000,000,000 of money flowing through the platform every year. We've got one of the best design application teams in the world to be able to make this product extensible. I paid a lot of attention to Amazon.

亚马逊在90年代末是一家书商，如你所记得的。我不确定杰夫·贝索斯当时是否有那样的雄心，也许他有，但他确实拓展了相邻领域。先是CD和DVD，然后是播放它们的电子产品，接着是玩具，剩下的就是历史了。我认为我们有机会不仅仅是一个度假租赁和房屋的市场。在最高层面上，我想我们要建立的是一个社区，而不仅仅是一个市场。

Amazon, in the late '90s, was a bookseller, as you recall. I'm not sure Jeff Bezos had the ambition at that moment, maybe he did, but he certainly went to his adjacencies. Adjacencies were CDs and DVDs, then he went to electronics to play them, then he went to toys, and then the rest is history. I think there is this opportunity for us to be much more than a marketplace for vacation rentals and homes. At the highest level, think what I want us to build is a community, not just a marketplace.

一个全球社区，你可以真正去任何地方旅行，获得旅行所需的一切，住在任何地方，获得现实世界中所需的一切，本质上属于任何地方，与人联系。旅行、生活、归属。我认为这就是我们要去的地方。我想可能需要五年的时间才能到达那里。我不想说从技术应用的角度我们已经完成了大部分工作，但我们从零开始重建了技术和应用，使其具有扩展性，能够提供几乎任何东西。

A global community where you can literally travel anywhere, get anything you need for traveling, live anywhere, get anything you need in the real world, essentially belong anywhere, connect with people. Travel, live, and belong. I think that's where we're going to go. I think it's probably a five year journey to get there. I don't want to say we've done most of the work from a technology application standpoint, but we've rebuilt the technology and rebuilt the application from the ground up to make it extensible to be able to offer really anything.

你们之前已经尝试过这些想法中的一些。体验项目已经存在一段时间了。我想你们在疫情期间推出了虚拟体验。

You've launched rifts on some of these ideas before. Experiences has been around. I think you had virtual experiences in the pandemic.

是的。

Yep.

我记得你们是从2014年开始测试体验项目的。那么，是什么让你有信心这次能成功？

You started testing experiences, I think, in 2014. Yeah. What gives you the confidence that you're gonna pull it off this time?

有些事情第一次没做成时，你会问：是想法本身不好，还是时机未到？我们的早期投资人马克·安德森有句名言——没有坏点子，只有太超前的点子。他断言几乎所有在互联网泡沫时期失败的点子，如今都成了热门应用。比如Webvan就是现在的Instacart和DoorDash。我一直相信消费会从实体商品转向服务，最终转向体验——位于需求金字塔顶端。社交媒体时代，人们渴望分享体验。

It's one of those things where sometimes if something doesn't work the first time, you ask, was it a bad idea, or was it just There's this great saying by Marc Andreessen, who was one of our early investors, who said there's no idea, it's just ideas that are too early. He basically made the comment that almost every idea that failed in the .com is now a popular app. Webvan is now basically Instacart and or DoorDash. I've always believed there is a consumption from physical goods to services to eventually experiences, and experiences at the top of the pyramid. I think that social media, people want to share experiences.

社交媒体网红想赚外快。他们现在怎么赚钱？先积累庞大粉丝，然后接广告推广，或者尝试开发自有产品。但我们发现很多有影响力的人不愿只靠吸引眼球变现。我们认为可以帮他们将体验本身货币化。

Social media influencers want to make extra money. How does a social media person, how does the influencer get paid right now? They build a huge audience, and they do essentially paid promotions, or they try to parlay it into creating a product. One of the big things we notice is a lot of these really influential people don't want to just broadcast and monetize attention. We think we can monetize their experience.

我们判断时机已经成熟。后疫情时代人们渴望新体验，社交媒体是绝佳分发渠道，我们既有庞大用户群又有执行能力。

We started seeing that we thought the timing was right. Post pandemic, people are looking for things to do. Social media is a great distribution channel. We have a huge audience. We have the capability to pull this off.

人们其实热爱Airbnb式体验，只是过去认知不足。这次我们彻底重构了产品逻辑——不再瞄准传统旅行社和越野观光项目，而是发掘全球文化圈最有趣的人，比如与奥运选手一起训练。事实证明这种模式极具扩展性。

And people love experiencing Airbnb, they just didn't really know about them. We've completely reimagined the product from the ground up. I think the big difference this time is this time we're not going after traditional tour operators and people doing Bronco tours. We're trying to find some of the most interesting people in culture around the world, like Olympians to do workouts with. It turns out this could be fairly scalable.

我们可以请米其林大厨教你烹饪。未来会有越来越多人提供或参与体验服务。放眼未来趋势：设备会更强大，数字世界会更逼真——这显而易见。

We can get Michelin chefs to do cooking classes with you. And so many people, I think, in the future are going to be offering experiences or going on experiences. We just zoom out and say, What are people going to do in the future? It's pretty obvious we're going to use more devices, and these devices are going get more powerful, and we're going to be able to live in these digital worlds. That's obvious.

关键问题是：除此之外我们还会做什么？我认为我们会用这些设备来丰富现实生活。哪些工作AI无法取代？那些需要人际联结、专业技能和亲身体验的工作。所以投资要么押注趋势，要么押注趋势造成的缺口。

And the question is, What else are we going to do? I think we're going to use these devices to live in the physical world. What jobs will AI not replace? Think that AI is not going to replace jobs that are people to people oriented, that are rooted in connection, rooted in skill, rooted in having an experience. And so I think many times you want to either bet on a trend, or almost bet on the opposite of the trend, which is to say bet on the gap that a trend makes.

如果你押注AI和数字化，就该同时押注这个缺口——世界将出现巨大真空，人们需要新消遣和新收入来源。这可能催生全新的经济形态。

And if you're betting on AI and the world being digitized, you also want to bet on this gap in the world, which is there's going to be this huge void. People are going need things to do. They're going need ways to make money. And so I think this could be a whole new economy that could emerge.

你提到的精选体验清单很有意思。有帕特里克·马霍姆斯（橄榄球明星）的体验项目，还有个叫御宅族心跳体验的。

You're talking about curating the experiences exist. You know, the the initial list is pretty fun. There's a Patrick Mahomes experience. Yeah. There's something called the Otaku Hadi experience.

没错，我绝对要报名那个。这需要大量系统投入吧？传统Airbnb的优势在于房主自主上传房源。

Yes. I'm Mega definitely signing up for that one. That's a lot of input into the system. Right? The benefit of traditional Airbnb is people put up their houses.

是的。你可以获得评价。你已经为那个市场构建了系统。人们来到房子前，房子本身是不变的因素。房子不可能有状态不佳的时候。

Yeah. You can get reviews. You've already built the system for that marketplace. People show up at houses, and the house is like not a variable. It's like the house can't have a bad day.

对，可能房子会脏。这会影响你的评分。但像Megan Thee Stallion这样的真人就可能会有状态不好的时候。

Yeah. Like maybe it's dirty. Yeah. And that'll take your reviews. But, like, Megan Thee Stallion can have a bad day.

这种体验存在变数。你们如何应对这种情况？

Like, there's a variability to that experience. How do you defend against that?

部分原因在于我们为何如此重视质量审核。我记得在其他谈话中也提到过——我们奉行这样的理念，这是我在Y Combinator期间从Paul Graham那里学到的。他说要做无法规模化的事，宁愿让100个人狂热喜爱，也不要100万人勉强认可。

Part of that is, like, why we're doing so much quality vetting. And I think the general and I've talked about this, I think, a little bit on other other conversations we've had. We have this philosophy, and I learned this philosophy during Y Combinator. Paul Graham had this philosophy, he said do things that don't scale. He said it's better to have 100 people love you than a million people sort of like you.

成长之道就是专注让100个人爱上你，哪怕用完全不可复制的手工方式。等到找准方向（可称为产品市场契合），再用工业化思维通过技术建立可扩展的系统。我们运营Experience也采用类似策略：先手工打造，邀请世界级偶像和有趣人物加入，用标杆案例展示可能性。

And the way you grow something is you focus on just getting 100 people to love you, and maybe it means you do things by hand that seem completely unscalable. And then what you do is once you've figured it out, we might call this product market fit, then you use technology in the industrialized part of your brain to figure out how to create systems and software to scale it. What we decided to do with Experience is something similar. We decided to try to build it out by hand. We wanted to build out, get some of the biggest icons in the world, get the most interesting people in the world, to get the network going, to show people what's possible.

未来我们将通过软件和社区实现规模化。这比核心房源业务更需要精细运营，就像亚马逊自建物流中心而eBay没有——最终体验决定成败。我相信凭借软件技术和社区力量，我们能做到。

What we want to do is use software and community to be able to scale this. I think it's going to be a much more curated, hands on scaling process than the original core business of homes. But it's almost like the difference between Amazon and eBay, where Amazon did the hard work of building out fulfillment centers, eBay didn't. But ultimately, the best experience wins. I do think with software and technology and community, we can be able to do this.

展望未来：我们先人工招募主持人，平台高度定制化；同时开发AI辅助工具，逐步实现自动化。会有更多社区主动提供体验——比如Megan Thee Stallion和Patrick Mahomes等名人就是被体验概念吸引而来。让明星入驻的意义在于：当人们看到'连Megan都这么做'时，就会想要参与。

What I would imagine going forward is we recruit most of the hosts, they come on the platform, it's very hand curated. Then what we're building is tools that are going to be very much assisted by AI, and we'll get more and more automated to be able to do this. We'll get more of the communities reaching out to us to provide more experiences. For example, Megan Thee Stallion, Patrick Mahomes, a lot of other celebrities reached out to us because of experiences. One of the reasons we want to get these celebrities on Airbnb is a lot of people say, If Megan Thee Stallion could do this, I would want to do this.

可能参与者多是普通人，但这正是值得向往之处。关于状态波动问题，我认为正是这种真实感让体验鲜活——这不是流水线产品，而是真实人生。爱彼迎本质上不是标准商品，这种独特性恰恰美妙所在。

It might be significantly lesser known people, but it's something to aspire to. To the point that people can have bad days, I guess that's what makes it real and authentic. These aren't cookie cutter experiences, this is real life. But I think there's something wonderful about it. I think Airbnb ultimately is not a SKU, it's not a standardized product.

人们有喜怒哀乐，会经历高低起伏。但核心在于真实性——正是这种联结让我们如此动人，这种变奏让生命如此丰盛。

People are living, they're breathing, they have good days, they have bad days. But I think it's really about authenticity. And I think that connection is what makes us so exciting. That variability is what makes life so rich.

我们需要短暂休息一下，马上回来。

We need to take a quick break, we'll be right back.

湿疹并不总是显而易见，但它是真实存在的。而Eglis带来的缓解也同样真实。在初始用药阶段后，约十分之一使用Eglis的患者在十六周时实现止痒并达到皮肤完全或几乎完全清洁。其中大多数人通过每月给药，在一年后仍能保持更清洁的皮肤状态。

Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Eglis. After an initial dosing phase, about in ten people taking Eglis achieve itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at sixteen weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

Eglis（lebrikizumab LBKZ），每2毫升含250毫克的注射剂，是一种处方药，用于治疗体重至少88磅（40公斤）以上的12岁及以上中重度湿疹（又称特应性皮炎）患者，这些患者的病情未通过外用处方疗法得到良好控制，或无法使用局部治疗。Eplis可与外用皮质类固醇联用或单独使用。若对Eplis过敏请勿使用。可能出现严重的过敏反应。眼部问题也可能发生。

Eglis, lebrikizumab LBKZ, a two fifty milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least eighty eight pounds or forty kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Eplis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Eplis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur.

如出现新发或加重的眼部问题，请告知医生。接受Eplis治疗期间不应接种活疫苗。开始使用Eplis前，请告知医生是否患有寄生虫感染。

Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Eplis. Before starting Eplis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

正在寻找真正的缓解方案？请咨询医生了解Eplis，访问eplis.lilly.com或致电+1 800或+1 805455979。

Searching for real relief? Ask your doctor about Eplis and visit eplis.lilly.com or call +1 800 or +1 805455979.

这里是Mint Mobile的瑞安·雷诺兹。在几乎所有东西都在涨价的当下，我们决定反其道而行之降价。为此我们请来了反向拍卖师——这显然是个真实职业。

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing.

Mint Mobile无限尊享无线套餐。多少人能拿到三十、三十、三十、三十、三十、二十、二十、二十、二十、二十、十五，每月仅需15美元。成交。

Mint Mobile unlimited premium wireless. How many to get thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty, fifteen, just $15 a month. Sold.

欢迎前往mintmobile.com/switch试用。

Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch.

需预付45美元购买三个月套餐（相当于每月15美元）。新客户优惠仅限前三个月。网络繁忙时超过35GB后降速。额外收取税费。详情见mintmobile.com。

Upfront payment of $45 per three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.

本节目由OpenPhone赞助。现代企业需要现代化的电话系统。OpenPhone是一款能简化和扩展客户通讯的商业电话系统。通过手机或电脑应用即可使用，无需携带两部手机或使用座机。借助OpenPhone，您的团队可共享一个号码，协同处理客户来电和短信。

Support for this show comes from OpenPhone. Modern businesses need a modern phone system. OpenPhone is a business phone system that streamlines and scales your customer communications. It works through an app on your phone or computer, so no more carrying two phones or using a landline. With OpenPhone, your team can share one number and collaborate on customer calls and texts.

这样任何成员都能无缝承接上一位同事的工作。其AI代理可在几分钟内设置完成，用于处理非工作时间来电、解答问题并获取潜在客户，确保您永不漏接。快来了解为何超过60,000家企业信赖OpenPhone。OpenPhone为我们的听众提供首六个月8折优惠，访问openphone.com/decoder。网址是0penph0ne.com/decoder。

That way, any teammate can pick up right where the last person left off. And their AI agent can be set up in minutes to handle calls after hours, answer questions, and capture leads so you never miss a customer. See for yourself why over 60,000 businesses trust OpenPhone. OpenPhone is offering our listeners 20% off their first six months at openphone.com/decoder. That's 0penph0ne.com/decoder.

若您已有其他服务商的电话号码，OpenPhone可免费为您办理携号转网。OpenPhone——不错过任何来电，不错过任何客户。

And if you have existing numbers with another service, OpenPhone will port them over at no extra charge. OpenPhone. No missed calls. No missed customers.

欢迎回到节目，今天我们继续对话Airbnb首席执行官布莱恩·切斯基。此前我们讨论了他对Airbnb平台进行的重大改革，包括推出新服务和升级体验功能，旨在让平台不仅限于度假租赁预订。但这引出了我近期在《解码器》节目中向每位CEO提出的核心问题：如果人们开始直接让AI代理使用这些服务会怎样？随着你们拓展更多服务领域，你现在面临着我称之为'DoorDash困境'的版本。

We're back with Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky. Before the break, Brian and I were discussing the big changes he's made to the Airbnb platform, including launching new services and revamping the experiences feature in a bid to make the platform a destination for more than just booking vacation rentals. But all that leads into the big question I've been asking virtually every CEO that's been on Decoder recently. What happens if people just start asking AI agents to go use the services for them? You have a version now, especially as you expand into delivering more and more services of what I've started calling the DoorDash problem.

对吧？如今应用界面精美，你们投入了大量心血。我想重点聊聊这些决策背后的考量——你们希望用户直接使用你们的工具。

Right? Where, you know, the app is beautiful now. You've invested a lot into the app. I wanna I wanna talk about the decisions to do that. You want people to use your tool.

没错。所有上节目的AI高管都说：'用户只需让Alexa代订Airbnb'，他们打算绕过平台直接对接——而这正是他们的终极愿景。

Yep. And all of the agentic AI executives who come on the show are like, you're just gonna have Alexa book you an Airbnb. Yep. And that they're gonna cut you out. And this is the dream.

就像你说'我要个三明治'，AI就会调用DoorDash接口，甚至直接模拟点击DoorDash网站——DoorDash将完全失去客户关系。你现在正面临类似情景：'我要去多伦多，给我订个Airbnb'。

You're just gonna say, I want a sandwich, and they're gonna go ping the DoorDash API, or they're literally, in some cases, gonna click around DoorDash's website on your behalf, and DoorDash gets none of the customer relationship. You have a version of this problem now. Right? I wanna I'm I'm going to Toronto. Get me an Airbnb.

某个AI代理就会响应。现在你们扩大了问题范围：'我需要厨师'就会触发Airbnb网站点击。你们考虑过是与这些AI代理系统合作、封锁它们，还是自建系统？

Some agent's gonna show up. And now you've expanded the the surface area of the problem. I need a chef. I'm gonna go click on the Airbnb website. Have you thought about whether you're gonna work with those agentic AI systems or block them or build your own?

因为这似乎是将至的平台变革，目前尚未有任何企业真正解决其商业逻辑问题。

Because that seems like the platform change that's coming that no one has really worked out the business of.

完全同意。首先让我们宏观思考未来图景：AI极端主义者认为未来将由一两个AI模型和应用程序主宰全局。若按此逻辑推演，最终将演变成某家公司掌控一切的局面。

Totally agree. First of all, like, let's zoom out and ask, like, how do we think the future is gonna look? There's this AI maximalist view that there's gonna be, like, one or two AI models and one or two applications that rules them all. You use this one app and this one model for everything in the world. If you take that to its logical conclusion, you also start to go to this place where almost like one company rules everything.

我认为'一家公司统治所有'的AI极端主义存在多重问题：其一是人们未必希望单家公司拥有绝对权力；其二是未来应由数百万人和成千上万企业共同构建。另一种观点认为AI可以促进世界民主化——技术停滞时世界趋于垄断，而技术爆发时则会催生更多初创企业。

And I think there's numerous problems with the AI maximalist view that it's one company to rule them all. One problem with it is, I don't know if everyone wants one company to have total power and primacy. But the other is, one company is not going to build the entire future. This entire future is going to be built by millions of people and thousands or even millions of companies. There's an alternative view, which is say that AI can democratize the world.

我坚信每家企业都必须转型为AI公司，否则面临被颠覆风险。我们同样能接触正在开发的这些模型。

It's almost like when technology stagnates, the world consolidates. And when there's this campaign explosion of technology, that could create a lot more startups. Think that's another alternative. I do think that every company is going to have to be an AI company, or they're at risk of disremediation. The models that are being developed, we have access to, as well.

我认为这里有几件事会逐渐显现。首先，我认为Airbnb本身将成为一个人工智能应用。我们正在招募非常优秀的人才，我认为我们是全球最出色的软件设计团队之一。我们拥有出色的应用层和设计，我认为我们可以不断扩展我们的应用。

Think there's a couple of things that are going to play out here. Number one, I think Airbnb will in and of itself be an AI application. We're hiring really great people. I think we're one of the best software design teams in the world. We have great application layers, design, and I think we can broaden and broaden our app.

这正是我们努力实现的部分目标。我认为单一垂直领域的专业公司可能会面临分销中介的风险。企业越是成为平台，用户就越有理由直接选择该公司。服务体验只是我们在Airbnb上能做的事情的开始。此外，我认为Airbnb是一个社区，因此你需要能够与客人和房东建立联系。

That's partly what we're trying to do. I think single vertical specialized companies could be at risk of distribution mediation. The more companies become a platform, the more it's a reason to go directly to that company. Service experiences are just the beginning of things we can do on Airbnb. Also, I think Airbnb is a community, so you want to be able to connect with the guests and hosts.

我们的消息平台非常重要。信任感至关重要。首先，我认为Airbnb将成为你旅行和生活的礼宾服务，甚至可能超越这些领域。我们将尽可能广泛地拓展业务。其次，我认为这些人工智能应用，这些原生人工智能公司，比如OpenAI，将会推出软件开发工具包。

Our messaging platform is really important. The sense of trust is really critical. Number one, I think Airbnb is going to be like a concierge for your traveling, for your life, and maybe beyond. We're going try to be as broad as possible. The second thing is, I think these AI applications, these native AI companies, take OpenAI, are going to have software developer kits.

我认为它们会推出SDK。就像苹果创建了App Store，但他们并没有开发每一个应用。而且最受欢迎的应用中，很少有是苹果原生开发的。为什么苹果无法开发出最受欢迎的应用？因为一家公司能做的事情实在太多了。

I think they're going have SDKs. Just like Apple created the App Store, but they didn't build every app. And very few of the most popular apps are Apple native apps. Why isn't Apple able to make the most popular apps? Because there's just so much for one company to do.

既要制造硬件，又要开发操作系统，还要开发应用。iPhone刚推出时，除了YouTube，所有应用都是原生的。而现在，除了iMessage，我使用的所有应用都不是苹果开发的，可能计算器除外，因为我不太在意下载自己的计算器应用。这可能是未来的趋势。会有公司专注于开发设备，也会有公司专注于开发操作系统，但我不知道是否会有单一的应用公司，就像App Store那样。

To make hardware, to make an operating system, and to make apps. When the iPhone came out, all the apps but YouTube were native. Now all the apps I use other than iMessage are not Apple, except for maybe the calculator, because I don't really care to download my own calculator. This is probably where the world's going. There are going to be companies that are developing devices, there are going be companies developing operating systems, but I don't know if there's going to be single apps, just like with the App Store.

因为每个应用都希望拥有自己的界面，每个应用都希望形成自己的文化。所以，我认为这是我的理论方向，但也存在一种极端的观点，认为一切都会整合到一两家公司手中。

Because every app is gonna wanna have its own interface. Every app's gonna wanna have its own kind of culture. And so I I think this is my theory for where it goes, but there is a maximalist view that, like, it's all consolidated to one or two companies.

这种极端观点，我认为，最好由那些承诺提供代理服务的公司来表达。是的，OpenAI就是其中之一。我知道你们与OpenAI有合作关系。我想谈谈你们可能在那里开展的工作。

That maximalist view is, I think, best expressed by the companies that are promising agents. Yep. OpenAI is one of them. I know you have a relationship with OpenAI. I wanna I wanna talk about the work you might be doing there.

但是，你知道，他们已经构建了一些代理。是的。还有一些代理的原型。其他公司甚至构建了更粗糙的代理原型，甚至还没有。最初，他们只是使用测试软件。甚至还没有。

But, you know, they've built some agents Yep. And some prototypes of agents. There are other companies that have built even jankier prototypes of agents that aren't even Yep. At the beginning, they were just using testing software. They weren't even Yep.

使用人工智能。Anthropic正在做的事情，比如模型上下文协议，某种程度上是为代理创建API层。对吧？所有这些基本上意味着，我将与我的电脑对话，电脑会为我做事。下一版本的Siri现在被推迟了。

Using AI. There's stuff like model context protocol that Anthropic is doing, which sort of like create API layers for agents. Right? All of that basically implies, I'm gonna talk to my computer and the computer is gonna go do stuff for me. The next version of Siri, is now delayed.

当初的承诺是，你可以与Siri对话，它会为你使用手机中的应用。我不知道这是否意味着一切将由一两家公司控制，但这确实预示着平台变革的到来。

The promise was you would talk to Siri. It would kinda use the apps in your phone for you. I don't know if that's maximalist to one or two companies will control everything, but it is maximalist to there's a platform change coming.

是的。

Yep.

自然语言将成为交互界面。你将主要通过对话与电脑交流，然后它就会执行任务。这种模式消除了传统界面的中介作用。没错。

And natural language will be the interface. You'll mostly communicate with your computer by talking to it. And then it'll just do stuff. And that's the thing that disintermediates your interface. Yep.

对吧？它切断了你与客户的直接联系。我实在不理解企业为何要参与其中。我曾向所有服务提供商提出这个问题——当你看到Alexa演示'我给你订了个三明治'时，

Right? It disintermediates your customer relationship. And I I don't know why you would participate in it. Like, I've I've asked this of all the companies that provide services. When you watch the Alexa demo and it's like, I got you a sandwich.

即使我们一致认同语音是未来，为什么外卖平台要以这种方式放弃与客户的直接联系？

It's like, why would any of the delivery services disintermediate their customer relationship in that way even if we all agree

哦，等等...

Oh, yeah. Oh, wait.

语音确实是下一代

That voice is the next

其实这里涉及多个层面。首先，语音未必是所有场景的最佳交互方式，甚至可能对多数场景都不理想。让我们宏观来看——就像聊天机器人界面不适合查询天气或计算器操作（所以才有iPhone的图形界面），未来更多会是视觉交互。语音传递信息的带宽极其有限，听觉通道的承载力远低于视觉。

Well, yeah. I mean, there's there's a bunch of things here. One is it's not clear to me that voice is the best way to do everything. It's not even clear voice is the best way to do most things. Let's zoom out for a second.

比如预订民宿时，语音无法传达房源样貌和氛围，局限性立刻显现。另外你说得对，企业必须自愿加入这个生态——没有公司甘愿只做数据底层，新界面的价值取决于参与企业的数量，而企业参与的前提是能维系客户关系。我们必须共同探索这个新世界，这会非常有趣。

Just like I don't think a chatbot interface was the best interface for most tasks, hence your iPhone, you don't want to text the weather, you don't want to text the calculator, you want a specific interface. I think a lot of the future is going to be more visual. The amount of bandwidth you can communicate through verbalizing words is very limited compared to seeing something. Hearing is a very low bandwidth. So it's great for certain things, but it is very limited to be able to do other things.

这些平台或新界面的价值完全取决于企业的参与度。企业只有在能保持与客户关系的前提下才会参与。我们必须共同探索这个新世界，这将非常有趣。

Get me an Airbnb, well what does Airbnb look like? What does it feel like? It gets very limited very, very quickly. Additionally, you're right. These companies are going have to want to participate into the platform.

我不认为企业会甘心只做数据底层。这些平台或新界面的价值完全取决于企业的参与，而企业参与的前提是能维系客户关系。我们必须共同构建这个新世界，这过程会非常精彩。

I don't think companies just want to be data layers. These platforms or these new interfaces are only as good as the companies participate. The companies will only participate if they can have a relationship with their own customer. We're going to have to figure out this new world. It's going to be really interesting.

我认为未来将是多模态的。语音将是关键，但我认为它将远不止于语音。有些场景可能仅需语音，但更多场景会超越语音范畴——因为单纯通过音频接收信息来完成大多数任务确实存在局限。我的意思是，语音能实现的毕竟有限。

I think the future is going be multimodal. Voice will be critical to it, but I think it's going be much more than voice. There'll be some things that will be voice only, but I think there's gonna be things that go well beyond voice because I just it's hard to receive information from an audio standpoint to do most task. I mean, you can get so far with it.

我询问过这场辩论双方人士关于解决方案的看法。他们给出了相似的答案：必须说服所有人参与。具体措施包括支付比常规更高的报酬——'成为数据层对你有利可图，我们会额外付费'。

I've asked people on sort of both sides of that debate how they think it might be resolved. They they all have a similar answer, which is, well, we have to convince everyone to participate. And then the specifics go to, well, maybe we'll just pay them more money than they would have otherwise gotten. Right? It'll be worth your while to be a data layer here because we'll just pay you a Yeah.

在常规收益基础上附加交易费。还有人提出类似你的观点：'我希望你直接在智能体内部打开我的界面，由我维护客户关系'。这些方案如何落地我毫无头绪。你们是否与各智能体公司探讨过具体需求？

A transaction fee on top of what you might otherwise get. And then other people have a version of what you're saying, which is, actually, what I want you to do is just open my interface inside of the agent, and I'll have a customer relationship. And I have no idea how any of this will play out. Have you had these conversations? Have you talked to the various agent companies and said, here's what I actually want?

我与包括Sam在内的多家公司探讨过：必须建立某种软件开发工具包（SDK）。共同探索双赢方案至关重要——当前尚处萌芽阶段，没人能确定答案，但这正是我们需要思考的核心问题。

One of the things I've talked to numerous companies, including Sam, about is there has to be some type of software developer kit and SDK. And it would be great for us to be able to think about this together and figure out, is there a win win? That's the big question, is there a win win? And there probably is. It's so early that no one really knows, this is the very beginning.

最终解决方案必然是对客户最有利的——这是我对Sam说的原话。客户会用选择投票。关键在于构想最佳体验场景。我的直觉是：设备种类会极少，操作系统会极少，但应用数量会激增。这符合计算技术发展的一贯轨迹。

Ultimately, and this is what I told Sam, the right solution will be whatever's best for the customer. Whatever's best for the customer will win, because they'll ultimately vote. So you've to imagine what's going to create the best experience. But I think that my instinct is, you will have very few devices, you'll have very few operating systems, but you'll have more apps. And I think that's kind of the way computing has always been.

我预判多数AI公司会选择成为语言层或基础层。垂直整合是另一条路，但像苹果这样全面整合几乎不可能——想象它要同时开发硬件、系统、Airbnb应用、客服系统、社区平台、支付系统并处理信任安全问题。社会分工决定了企业必须专注核心优势。

That's my instinct of where it goes, and I think increasingly these AI companies choose to be the language layer, foundational layer, and that's where a lot of them will go. Or they can vertically integrate. But if a company vertically integrates, like Apple, you can't vertically integrate and be wide, because there's too many things to do. Imagine Apple trying to build the device, the operating system, and the Airbnb app, and handle customer service, and do this, and do that, and build the community, and handle all the money and deal with trust and safety. There's a lot of jobs to be done in society, and every company has to bring its core skill set.

我们的核心优势在于界面设计及线上线下世界的连接。最终胜出的永远是最优产品或解决方案。我们正努力扩展服务范围——主要出于客户需求而非战略考量，因为企业利益必须与客户需求保持一致。

One of the things I think we're great at is interface. Interface design and the connection of the online world with the offline world. Ultimately, the best product will win, the best solution will win. Part of what we're trying to do is broaden our offering to be as broad as possible. Mostly for the customer, mostly not from strategic considerations because you have to align your interests with what the customer wants.

而这正是我认为我们可以发力的方向。

But this is exactly where I think we could go.

关于AgenTic AI场景中的服务商，我见过很多演示：用户用手机对着洗碗机说'坏了，找人维修'，系统通过Thumbtack或Angie's List这类平台预约技师。但实际使用中我发现——

The other thing I think about when when you think about the service providers in the context of AgenTic AI is I've seen a lot of demos where know, someone points a phone at a dishwasher and they say, my dishwasher is broken. Get me somebody to fix it. And it goes and then the data provider is like a thumbtack or an Angie's List. And it says, booked someone for you. Now I've booked repair people on these services.

维修人员仅把这些平台当获客渠道，并不用其管理后台业务。他们更倾向线下交易以避免佣金。更严重的是，平台显示已预约的技师可能根本不会现身——数据层与实际服务完全脱节。

And the problem is the individual repair people use that for discovery, but they don't use it to actually run their back office. They're not actually scheduling there. They would prefer you not to transact with them there because you have to pay fees. Right. There's a whole other side of it where you can tell the database that something happened, but the actual human being might not ever show up.

对吧？你必须弥合那个差距，彻底地。覆盖你现在涉及的所有垂直领域。

Right? And you gotta close that gap Totally. Across all of the verticals that you're now in.

是的。

Yes.

而弥合差距的方法之一就是全面接管，说我们也要运营你们的后台办公室。

And one of the ways you close that gap is to just take it all over and say, we're gonna run your back office too.

没错。

Yep.

你们完全实现这一点了吗？

Are you all the way there?

我们将实现高度垂直整合，为这些服务提供商打造工具，为这些房东开发工具。我认为这或许引出了一个更广泛的议题——大多数顾客眼中的爱彼迎，只是一个带有五个标签页的应用程序界面。就像你作为顾客看亚马逊时，只能看到网站和随后送达的纸箱。实际上，我们所说的亚马逊（至少是亚马逊零售业务，而非AWS）绝大部分并非网站本身，而是其物流中心。

We're gonna get pretty vertically integrated, where we're building the tools for these service providers. We're building the tools for these hosts. And I think this maybe goes to a broader point, which is most customers, when they look at Airbnb, they see an app with five tabs, and they see an interface. Of similar to Amazon, when you see Amazon as a customer, all you see is the website, and then you see the cardboard box showing up. It turns out most of what we call Amazon at least Amazon Retail, not AWS is not the website, it's the fulfillment center.

是支撑网站运行和完成所有配送的整套体系。我认为真相在于——这才是未来的爱彼迎。你可以将其视为三位一体：顾客看到的宾客应用，房东使用的完整应用（可能更复杂，因为这是人们日常使用的工具），以及最重要的第三部分——驱动整个系统的庞大基础设施。

It's everything that's powering the website and fulfilling everything. I think the truth is that's what's going be Airbnb. You can almost think of Airbnb as three things: It's the app the customers see the guest app. There's this whole app the hosts use, which is probably even more robust, because that's an app people use every day. And there's almost this third Airbnb, which is the biggest of all, which is this system that powers everything, that makes all this possible.

如何确保当某人想理发时，你们有工具让商家能在爱彼迎上管理业务？但更大的挑战甚至不在于此，而是纽约每晚有多少人需要理发？他们能接受什么价位？谁来审核资质？

How do you make sure when somebody wants to get a haircut, you have the tools to make sure that somebody can manage their business on Airbnb? But the bigger challenge, not even is that. It's how many people in New York City need to get a haircut every night? What kind of price point do they want? Who's vetting them?

如何确保他们准时出现？爽约怎么处理？现场突发状况怎么办？可能有上千种意外情况。关键在于如何优雅设计系统来解决所有这些问题？需要完成的工作量将极其庞大。

How do we make sure they show up? What happens when they don't show up? What happens when they're There's like a thousand contingencies. The question is, how do you design a system elegantly to be able to solve all these different problems? There's just going to be so much to do.

我认为其迷人之处（也是这类项目难以全面推广的原因之一）在于它关乎现实世界。试想AI将自动化什么？大量数字内容。机器人技术和自动化将接管重复性工作。而在服务与体验经济领域——谁知道十年二十年后，还有哪些领域未被自动化或人形机器人取代？

I think what makes this so interesting, and one of the reasons it's hard to fully disseminate something like this, is it's the real world. And if you think, what will AI automate? It's going to automate a lot of digital content. Think robotics and autonomy is going to automate a lot of repetitive tasks. I think the services and experience economy who knows in ten years, twenty years what isn't automated and what isn't done by humanoids.

但可以肯定的是，在未来十年内，我认为很多领域会转向以人为中心的经济模式，人们将在现实世界中从事实体活动。

But certainly in the next ten years, there's gonna be the I I think that's a lot of where the, like, like, the the human centric economy goes where people are doing physical things in the real world.

我想问问做出这个决定的经过。我们过去经常讨论决策问题，也多次聊过创始人模式——那是次很棒的对话。我刚读完你和《连线》杂志Stephen Levy的深度访谈，非常精彩，推荐大家都去看看。

I wanna ask about the decision to do this. You and I have talked about decision making a lot in the past. We talked about founder mode a lot in the past, which is which was a great conversation. I was just reading you know, you did a big story with Stephen Levy at Wired, which is great. I recommend people go read it.

听起来基本就是你做了决定：记了大量笔记，在屋里来回踱步，最终拍板要干这事，然后开了个会。

And it it basically sounds like you decided to do this. You took a lot of notes. You, like, wander around your house. You decided you're gonna do this. You had a meeting.

你直接宣布'我们就这么干'。这可是重大决策，团队有人提出异议吗？

You said we're doing this. That's a big decision. Did your team push back on you?

你有没有

Did you

你是不是直接碾压了他们的意见？具体怎么操作的？

did you just roll over them? How how did that work?

不是。我说决定要做这事时，更准确的说法是：某个周末我决定写下这个愿景，随后与团队进行了长达数月的讨论。实际上这件事发生在OpenAI事件之后

No. I mean, like, when I say I decided to do it, guess the better way to say it is, I decided one weekend to write a vision of this that then became a multi month conversation with the team. And so basically, it actually happened in the wake of the OpenAI

对。我看了下时间线，发现这些事都是同时发生的。

Yeah. Was looking at the timing, and I was like, this is all happening at the same time.

OpenAI那件事是这样的：Sam在感恩节前的周五被解雇。我深度参与了此事，更多是以帮忙的朋友身份。从周五到周二，我父母、姐姐和姐夫都在城里。后来他们去姐夫家过感恩节，我独自在家积攒了大量能量，就在那个周末把所有这些想法倾泻而出。

So that OpenAI thing, like Sam was fired from OpenAI on a Friday before Thanksgiving. I was pretty involved in that situation, more as a helpful friend. From Friday to Tuesday, my parents, my sister, her husband were in town. They eventually left my house for Thanksgiving weekend to go to my brother in law's family's house. I had this weekend by myself with all this pent up energy, and that's when I poured all these ideas down.

这些是我长期思考的问题：如果能像爱彼迎那样整合全球资源会怎样？如果能实现万物共享呢？我开始列举各种可能性，写下服务、体验等各类清单。

These were things I was thinking about for a long time. It was basically, what if you could Airbnb the world? What if you can have Airbnb for everything? I started saying, what would everything be? I wrote down a list of things, services, experiences.

这实际上是三个核心理念。第一点是爱彼迎将转型为一个平台，从短期租赁、度假租赁扩展到涵盖所有旅行与居住需求。就像亚马逊从卖书扩展到万物商店。第二点关于人工智能，爱彼迎将成为具有自主决策能力的应用——成为旅行与生活的终极礼宾服务，我们将化身终极智能代理。

It was really three ideas. Idea number one was Airbnb was going become a platform, where you could go from short term rentals, vacation rentals, to everything to travel and live. Amazon went from books to everything. The second idea was Airbnb, to the point of AI, was going to become an agentic app. It was going to become the ultimate concierge for traveling and living, and we become the ultimate agent.

顺便说，如果你认为AI的未来是代理程序，那世界上最常见的代理是什么？旅行代理、客服代理——这正是我们的领域，所以我们深谙此道。第三点或许最关键：我们将从交易市场转向社区生态，以人为核心。我撰写了长达数千字的文稿，经过反复提炼最终浓缩成这三个基本理念。在某个周一早晨的高管会议上分享时，团队既表现出热情也提出了诸多疑问。

By the way, if you think the future of AI is agents, what are the most common agents in the world? Travel agents, customer service agents, that's what we do, so we know a lot about that. The third was, and maybe most importantly, we were going go from a marketplace to a community, and we were going put people at the center. I wrote this out, it was thousands and thousands of words, and I tried to distill it, distill it, distill it finally to these three basic ideas. I shared with an executive team, I think it was on a Monday morning, and I think the team was both enthusiastic and had a lot of questions.

本质上，我的沟通方式——这里涉及组织管理——是采用同心圆式传播。有些创始人直接行动只告知少数人，导致信息断层，这是最糟糕的；也有人突然群发邮件全公司，这同样不妥——你不该让员工和其主管同时获知消息，否则员工询问时主管可能还未理解。

Basically, I communicate and now this goes to organizational stuff I try to communicate in concentric circles. Some founders and CEOs just do things, and they tell a few people and no one knows. That's probably the worst thing, because you're not bringing people along. Some people have an idea and they email the entire company. I think that also is problematic, You don't want to tell somebody and their manager at the same time, because then people go to their manager and the manager's not bought in.

他们会说'我不清楚我们要做什么'，导致执行半心半意。我的做法是先召集10-12人的高管团队，充分讨论并完善构想；然后扩展到二三十人的共识圈层，逐步扩大影响范围。

They're like, I don't know what we're doing, I'm not sure, and people aren't really bought into it. Everything's half baked. What I did is I brought my executive team in, that was maybe 10 or 12 people. We beat the idea up, I refined it, refined it. Then I went to the next consensus circle of twenty, thirty more people, and I kept widening the aperture.

最初的愿景几乎无需修改，所有人都清晰认识到：爱彼迎必然要转型为'随处旅居'的社区生态，AI将成为核心，用户档案将置于中心位置。我们立即启动转型，整个公司肉眼可见地发生着蜕变。

There weren't really a lot of edits from the original vision. It was very clear that this was inevitably where Airbnb was going to go. It was going to be a community where you can travel and live anywhere, AI was going to be the center, people's profiles were going to be at the center. We started working on it. We actually were transforming the company before everyone's eyes.

我们重写了技术架构和应用程序——这很棒，因为本就需要升级核心业务。新版应用不仅强化了主营业务，更将所有组件模块化为可扩展的原始单元。现在房源页面不再仅是房源展示。

We rewrote the technology stack, rewrote the app. It was great because we had to do it anyway to update our core business. We rebuilt the entire app. It worked out insofar that it advanced our core business, made our core business better, made our core business stronger, but we were able to turn all of our components into primitives that were extensible. Now it wasn't a page for a home.

它成为了万能页面（如果能这么形容）。新架构下的万能页面让房源展示效果更佳，因为我们用更优方式构建了它。

It was a page for anything, if that makes sense. But we put on new technology stack, and then the page that was an anything page that the homes performed better because we built it in a much better way.

这非常有意思。也就是说你们抽象出了平台核心，现在基本上可以销售任何东西了？

That's super interesting. Right? So you're you're abstracting the core of the platform, and now you can sell basically anything.

几乎可以销售和实现任何功能。这引出了关键观点：简单划分'宽泛型AI公司'和'垂直领域AI公司'是过度简化。我们也将成为AI公司——就像说我们是电力公司、互联网公司一样。确实存在AI原生企业，但如今这已不新鲜。

You can sell and do almost anything. And and so this gets to the point, which is to say, I don't think it's not it's an oversimplication to say there's gonna be these, like, broad AI companies, and there's all these companies that are narrow verticals. We're going be an AI company, too, because the technology it's like saying we're an electricity company, we're an internet company. I think there's AI native companies, companies that were founded on the premise of AI. But even that's not novel anymore.

以YC为例（我在其董事会），现在每年约500家初创公司中，每家公司都自称AI企业，就像十年前每家公司都标榜移动应用。未来所有公司都将是AI公司，只是其中会诞生几家巨头。

Basically, every single startup in Y Combinator and I'm on the board of YC, I see a lot of companies, think 500 or so companies come through YC every year now. Everyone is an AI company, just like every company ten years ago was a mobile app. Companies weren't native. I think now, every company is going to be an AI company. There will be some dominant companies.

毫无疑问，OpenAI正在获得逃逸速度并将占据主导地位，但他们无法包揽一切。他们必须选择自己的赛道。我们所有人都将接触到大致相同的技术。真正的问题是，这项技术是否真的具有专属性，还是相当自由可获取的？到目前为止，它是相当自由可获取的。

There's no question OpenAI is getting escape velocity and will be dominant, but they can't do everything. They're going to have to pick their lane. All of us are going have access to much of the same technology. The real question is, is this technology really proprietary, or is it pretty freely available? And so far, it's pretty freely available.

模型正变得越来越普及、更便宜、更开源。我认为这是一场通往超级智能的竞赛，一些深度研究可能会变得非常专有，但我们日常生活中所需的大部分技术并不属于那一类。

Models are getting more and more ubiquitous, cheaper, more open source. I think there's the race to superintelligence and some of the deep research might become very proprietary, but most of what we need for day to day life isn't that.

我们需要再短暂休息一下，马上回来。

We need to take another quick break. We'll be right back.

在Sierra，发现顶级品牌健身装备的超值优惠，比如高品质的步行鞋，这可能会带来另一个新发现。

At Sierra, discover great deals on top brand workout gear, like high quality walking shoes, which might lead to another discovery.

四万步了，宝贝。现在谁领先了，凯伦？

40,000 steps, baby. Who's on top now, Karen?

你把办公室步数挑战推得太远了。不过别担心，Sierra也有瑜伽装备，或许是个寻找内心平静的好地方。以意想不到的低价探索顶级品牌。

You've taken the office step challenge a step too far. Don't worry, though. Sierra also has yoga gear. It might be a good place to find your zen. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices.

Sierra，让我们动起来吧。

Sierra, let's get moving.

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你保存。

You save.

我们再次与Airbnb首席执行官布莱恩·切斯基连线。在休息期间，我们讨论了代理型人工智能，以及像Airbnb这样的公司将如何在一个人工智能代理代替人类用户访问网站、自主点击的世界中运作。现在我想深入探讨Airbnb重大应用重新设计背后的决策过程及其整合方式。我们之前曾有一次对话，当时你刚在去年Figma大会上发表演讲。

We're back with Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky. For the break, we're talking about Agentic AI and how a company like Airbnb is going to maneuver in a world where human users maybe stop visiting websites and clicking around themselves and instead have AI agents do it for them. So now I really wanted to dig into the decision making behind Airbnb's big app redesign and how it all came together. We talked once previously. You had just given a speech, I think, at at Figma's conference last year.

你说Airbnb裁撤了所有产品经理，转而设立了产品营销经理。这在某种程度上引起了轰动——每当你谈论Airbnb的组织架构时，总会引发热议。你正在描述对应用程序进行根本性重构的重大决策。

You said Airbnb had gotten rid of all your PMs, and you got product marketing managers. This was a big sensation in a way that whenever you talk about how your Airbnb Yeah. Is structured, you often cause a sensation. You you're describing some big fundamental rethinks of the app here.

完全正确。

Totally.

众所周知，你将整个公司整合到统一路线图上。在没有产品经理的情况下如何实现？是要求他们转变思维方式吗？还是对团队进行了重组？

And you famously have moved the entire company onto one road map. Yeah. How do you do this without PMs? Like, did did you tell them all to think differently? Did you have to restructure that group at all?

这其实很有趣。那句话被断章取义了。大多数公司都有产品经理这个职位。产品经理的职责...让我们打个比方方便听众理解：如果要设计一栋建筑...

It's actually really interesting. That quote was taken out of context. Most companies have these people called product managers. The product manager is okay, let's back up. If we're going to design a building, let's just use a really simple metaphor for everyone listening.

设计建筑主要涉及两方：设计师即建筑师，以及总承包商和施工队（类似工程师）。在这两者之间有个项目进度管理员，但建筑领域并没有产品经理——实际上建筑师就承担了这个角色。

There's really a couple parties to design a building. You have the designer, which is called an architect. Then you have a general contractor and builders, which are almost like engineers. And then those are the main two people making a building, and you have something in between called the program manager, making sure you're on schedule. There's not really a product manager of a building, that's actually the architect.

设计师拥有非常全面重要的职责。在Airbnb，我们决定让设计师像建筑设计师那样承担重要角色。但仍需要产品职能人员，最终我们将传统产品经理角色精简——因为产品经理越多，产品方向就越分散。

The designer has a pretty big, robust role. At Airbnb, we really decided that we wanted the designers to have pretty robust roles, like architects of buildings. But you still need a product type person. What we ended up doing was we took the classic product manager role, we decided to have fewer of them. Because the more product managers you have, the more you have product proliferation, they go in many directions.

我们提升了设计部门的地位。很多公司让设计向产品部门汇报，把产品经理当作迷你CEO。我们让设计与产品部门平级，形成工程、设计和产品三足鼎立。我们缩减了产品管理中软件开发的比重，但增加了营销职能——不是广告投放，而是明确用户定位、产品传播策略和故事叙述。

We elevated design. A lot of companies have design report to product, and products like this mini CEO. We elevated design to be alongside products, so it's engineering, design, and product. We then, in some ways, made the inbound software part of product management a little smaller, but we actually added marketing to them. Not the advertising distribution, but who is the customer, how do you get this out to them, what's the positioning, how do we tell the story of the product.

产品的故事叙述至关重要，因为伟大创意往往始于故事。我们重塑了这个角色，称之为产品营销，但更准确地说应该是产品管理-产品营销复合体，兼顾软件开发和市场推广。我们将其打造成更精简的职能，并新增了第四个职能——项目管理。

The story of a product is really important, because a lot of great ideas start with a story. How are you going to talk about this, what is this? We reframed the role it's called product marketing, but the most precise description would probably be product managementproduct marketing, where there's inbound and outbound, developing the software and and getting distribution. And we made it a much narrower, leaner function. Then we built a fourth function, which was program management.

而项目管理曾是一级职能。在大多数公司里，它甚至算不上真正的职能，或者隶属于项目经理之下。他们负责确保一切按计划推进。许多公司里，产品经理才是掌控进度的人。产品经理需要向项目管理者汇报进度并承担责任。

And program management was a tier one function. At most companies, it's not even a real function, or it works under the PMs. They are the ones making sure everything stays on schedule. In a lot of companies, the product managers keep the schedule. The product managers are held accountable by the program managers to have the schedule.

当公司只有单一业务线和路线图时，这点至关重要。若想实现所有环节的整合，就需要极其强大的项目管理职能来确保进度。产品营销人员需成为产品的主人，但他们通过影响力管理，并不像其他公司那样拥有绝对控制权。

This is really critical when you have one company and one roadmap. When you want to have everything integrated together, you need basically this really robust program management function holding everything to schedule. You need the product marketers to be the owner of the product. But they manage by influence. They don't have total control like other companies.

所有环节都是整合的。设计师、工程师和产品营销人员协同工作。关键决策由我和核心领导层做出。实际上苹果公司也采用这种模式，所以这并非完全创新的架构。

It's all integrated. And then designers and engineers and product marketers are all integrated together. And then me and the key leaders make the key trade offs. And actually, this is how it works at Apple, too. So it's not a model that's totally novel.

请具体说明实施过程。我特别欣赏你们重构数据库核心以支持所有服务类型（而不仅是房源）的理念。多数公司会说：我们在房地产领域已有成熟的房源数据库，现在要为服务类业务另建新库。

Put that in practice for me. I'm I love this idea that you rearchitected the core part of the database to support every kind of service instead of just houses. A lot of companies are gonna say, well, we have a database for houses in real estate. That thing's doing great. We're gonna stand up this other database for services.

而你们直接选择重构整个数据库，用更抽象的方式支持所有业务，这个思维跃迁非常惊人。对吧？有些决策就是需要直接调用技术方案。没错吧？

The conceptual jump to, actually, we should refactor the entire database to support everything in a more abstract way is huge. Yeah. Right? Some of these were just straight up call that tech Yeah. Right?

这里的技术债在于：现有房源数据库无法实现这个功能，所以我们要新建数据库。

The tech debt here is we can't do this in the house database. We're gonna build a new database.

正是如此。

Exactly.

具体问题后续解决。在你们的架构中，是什么支撑了这种突破性决策？

We'll figure it out down the line. Where does that come from in your structure to to actually take that jump?

这个问题很好。多数公司的运作模式是：核心业务由业务管理者运营，当开拓新业务时，就划分出新团队独立运作。这就是事业部制的开端——通过分割形成事业部架构，几乎所有企业都如此运作。之后每开拓新业务，就再组建新团队。

This is great. So at most companies, just to, like, put a fine point on it, you have a core business, it's run by people that manage a business, and you want to do something else, you divide the company up, and you create a new team of separate people working on the new thing. This is the beginning of divisionalizing the company, dividing it up, hence the divisional structure. This is how almost every company works. Then you want another new thing, and there's another new team.

这些团队往往在不同办公楼，受保护隔离，成员类型也不同——新业务团队多是早期阶段人才，成熟业务则由后期阶段人才运营。他们争夺资源，缺乏协作。当需要投放广告时，团队间会争夺广告预算和官网展示位，最终演变成资源竞争、预算争夺，甚至预算制定过程也变成自下而上的谈判。而在爱彼迎，我们完全采用职能制架构——没有体验业务负责人、没有服务业务负责人、也没有房源业务负责人。

Often they're in a different building, they're protected, they're different kinds of people, they're more early stage people, and then the big thing is run by late stage people. They fight for resources, they don't collaborate together. And then when you have to run an ad campaign, which team gets the advertising dollars, who gets the real estate on the homepage, you end up having this competition of resources, a competition of budget and money, and even the budget process, it's a bottoms up roll up, and you're negotiating. At Airbnb, everything is totally functional. So there's no head of experiences, there's no head of services, there's no head of homes.

我们有设计主管、工程主管、产品营销主管。在产品营销部门内部，还有直接责任人（DRI）或专职人员。各职能部门可能有专人负责。但我们不设这些小团队。这样讲清楚吗？

There's a head of design, there's a head of engineering, there's a head of product marketing. Now, within product marketing, there's DRIs, or people dedicated. Functions might have people that are dedicated. But we don't have these little pods. Does that make sense?

很多公司都设有设计-工程-产品经理小团队协同工作。这种方式有利有弊，而我最终认为弊大于利。好处是能快速开展各种分散项目，启动时无需协调——这正是企业划分事业部的初衷。

A lot of companies have a design engineering product manager pods, and they work together. There's a benefit of this, and a huge downside to this. I ultimately think it's a downside. The benefit is you can do lots of disparate things quickly, and you can start things up because it doesn't require coordination. This is why people divisionalize.

但正如你所说，问题在于这会制造技术债务。最终快即是慢，慢即是快。在大公司里，初期看似快速的方案往往后劲不足，因为会遇到资源壁垒、协作障碍和巨额债务。当核心盈利业务老化需要革新时，却无人能担此重任。

The problem, to your point, is it creates tech debt. And then ultimately, fast is slow, and slow is fast. Whatever is fast to start often becomes slow in a big company, because you hit a wall, you don't have resources, you can't collaborate together, and you have this huge debt. And then the big thing that's the moneymaker gets old, and it has to be reinvented. But who's going to reinvent it?

于是出现试图革新核心业务的新锐团队，这会让原有团队感到威胁，形成新旧对立。我们决定让全公司共同专注一个目标。我明确表示：我们只做全体成员能亲自把控的项目。这种工作方式催生了真正创新——全新的可扩展搜索系统、产品详情页架构和消息平台。

You have this new Skunk Works team trying to reinvent the core thing and replace everyone's job, and then they feel threatened, and it's an old versus new. We decided to just have the entire company work on one thing together. I basically said, we're not going work on more things than we all can personally manage. There was a huge benefit to this way of working, though, which is that's where real innovation comes from. To have an entire new search group, to have an entire new product description page that's extensible, to have a new messaging platform.

举例来说，我们重新设计了'体验'功能，希望增强社交属性：显示参与者、支持实时通讯、活动后分享照片视频。这需要彻底重构整个消息平台。

I'll give you an example. We launched experiences, we relaunched them. We want to make them more social. We want you to be able to see who's going on the experience, be able to message people, communicate after, share photos and videos. We had to rebuild the entire messaging platform.

我们从零打造了类似iMessage/WhatsApp的消息系统。若按事业部制，体验团队需要协调核心消息团队开发这些功能，这根本不可能实现。就像装修整栋房子时，既然要重装卫生间，不如直接按新标准施工——我们实质上更新了整个公司的技术基底。

We had to rebuild the messaging from the ground up to make it almost like iMessage or WhatsApp. We could never have done that if it was a division, because the Experiences team would have had to try to get the core messaging team to build all these features. But we're already renovating the whole house. If we're already replacing everything in the bathroom, we're renting a bathroom, we're like, well, let's just build with the spec in mind. So it's basically like we've updated the entire company.

现在全系统采用新标准，我们将持续迭代扩展。这就是Airbnb在AI时代的防御策略：不断拓宽边界、持续更新、避免僵化。这种职能型组织全盘整合在统一路线图下的运作模式很独特。虽然由项目管理统筹，但由我亲自领导——我实质担任着首席产品官，与产品营销负责人紧密协作。

It's now in this brand new standard, and now we're just gonna keep updating the whole thing over and over again and go broader and broader and broader and broader. This is the theory of how Airbnb is perhaps protected in the world of AI, which is we get broader, we get broader, we update, we don't get calcified. I think this is a unique way of working in a functional organization, where everything is totally integrated on one single road map. We're functional, the entire thing is organized by program management, but it's led by me, I'm pretty hands on. I'm essentially the Chief Product Officer of the company, I have a head of product marketing, but I'm in the room with them.

我们推进速度极快。三天前发布的新版APP，可能是同规模应用有史以来最大规模的一次性改版。不同于Instagram/TikTok/Uber等每日渐进更新，我们实现了质的飞跃——虽然冒险，但传统架构根本做不到这种突破。

And we're just moving very quickly. I think it's possible that the new app that we launched three days ago was the biggest change to any app our size ever, at one time, our stage. Like Instagram, or TikTok, or Uber, or DoorDash. Most of these apps make incremental changes every day, but they don't make a giant leap forward. It's risky, but they're not even organized to do that.

想想看：APP80%的界面是三天前全新设计的，却承载着900亿美元交易流。这就像在满载行驶的汽车上更换引擎。如此彻底的革新几乎没有其他实现路径，从速度角度看反而是优势。

Think 80% of the app is completely new surface area from three days ago, and yet $90,000,000,000 is flowing through it. That was changing the engine on a moving car with many people in the car at the same time. It's a pretty big single reinvention. There aren't many other ways to do that. I think it's an advantage from a speed standpoint.

这或许是我管理方式的悖论：外界认为我的深度参与会拖慢进度。初期确实会慢，但最终会提速。就像全车人同乘一辆车——我脚踩油门手握方向盘，左转指令瞬间同步执行。大公司常误解'亲力亲为'意味着剥夺员工自主权，但控制权并非零和游戏。

Maybe that's the paradox of how I run this company, which is there's this assumption that the way I run this company, being very hands on, slows things down. Initially, it slows things down, but I think it ultimately speeds things up. We're in one car, my pedal's to the metal, I have my hand on the steering wheel, I can turn left, and we all turn left. At large companies, there's this view that I'm super hands on, so now I take all the control from the employees. But control is not a zero sum game.

存在一种我们都被赋能的场景，也存在一种我们都被削弱的场景。在许多大公司里，并非员工掌握权力而CEO没有。每个人都有些无力感——至少这是大公司的糟糕版本，充斥着政治和官僚主义。因此，初创公司为何存在？因为它们填补了大公司无法像初创企业那样行动的空白。

There's a scenario where we're all empowered, and there's a scenario where we're all disempowered. At many large companies, it's not like the employee has the power and the CEO doesn't. Everyone's a little bit powerless at least this is the bad version of a big company, where there's politics, there's bureaucracy. Hence, why do startups exist? Startups exist because big companies don't act like startups.

这实际上是创始人模式的核心理念。杰夫·贝索斯曾对我说过：小公司灵活，大公司稳健，但当公司变得稳健时，它们就失去了灵活性。世界上最好的公司可以既稳健又灵活。史蒂夫·乔布斯有句名言，他希望苹果成为世界上最大的初创公司。

This is actually the whole premise of founder mode. Jeff Bezos once said this to me. He said, Small companies are nimble, big companies are robust, but as companies get robust, they lose their ability to be nimble. The best companies in the world can be robust and nimble. Steve Jobs had this saying, he wanted Apple to be the world's biggest startup.

这不过是同一理念的不同表述。我们只想成为世界上最大的初创公司。完全整合的创始人模式，正是试图成为世界最大初创企业的尝试——我认为这在AI时代是必需的，因为你需要不断改变适应。初创公司将占据主导地位。

That's another way of saying the same thing. We want to just be the world's biggest startup. Founder mode being totally integrated is an attempt to be the world's biggest startup, which I think is what you'll need in the age of AI because you need to change and adapt. Startups are gonna take over.

作为曾经翻新过浴室的人，那很快就会变得昂贵。你开始想着——我要把整栋房子都翻新，这在某种程度上听起来像是我们...

As somebody who's renovated a bathroom before, that quickly gets costly. You start do you're like, I'm gonna I'm gonna go renovate the whole house, which it sounds to some extent like We

差不多就是这么干的。

kinda did that.

我看到一位前Airbnb工程师（应该是工程师）发推说，新应用部分功能涉及'我发明了一种尖端视频播放器格式，可实现跨网页/iOS/Android的透明度和精准控制'——这是他们离开Airbnb前做的。我们本在翻新浴室，现在却投资尖端视频播放器格式。视频播放器明明可以直接采购现成的啊。

I saw a former Airbnb engineer, I believe engineer, tweet, part of the new app involved, quote, I've invented a cutting edge video player format that allows for transparency and precise control across web, iOS, and Android. They did that before they left Airbnb. We're renovating the bathroom. Now we're investing in cutting edge video player formats. Video players, you you can get off the shelf.

怎么会觉得值得花时间深入到视频播放器格式的底层开发？

How do you get to it's worth it to spend the time all the way down to the bare metal of video player formats?

这有点像老派的垂直整合理念。那些立体精美、动态变化的应用程序图标——当时技术并不成熟。听起来简单，但我们其实在挑战现成软件开发工具包的极限。我们试图在北极星原则（尽可能垂直整合以创造惊艳体验）与两大制约因素（时间和资源）间找到平衡点。

I mean, it's like kind of like the old thing of vertical integration. Like, those app icons that are three-dimensional and beautiful and they move and they change, like, the technology wasn't really available. It sounds pretty straightforward, but, like, you know, we were pushing the boundaries of what we could do off the shelf with a typical software developer kit. We basically try to find a trade off between our North Star is we would like to do everything in a vertically integrated way as possible to make it amazing. There are constraints of basically two things, time and resources.

我们只能雇佣有限人手，必须遵守截止期限，因此要精选真正重要的事项。这次开发新界面并非资源密集型，但我们最终认定设计是核心竞争力——要打造世界顶级设计应用。这才是人们选择Airbnb的竞争优势所在。

We can only hire so many people, we have to hit deadlines. We have to pick the things that really matter to us. In this case, it wasn't super resource intensive to be able to develop this new interface. But we decided ultimately that one of our core competencies is design, that we were going have one of the best design apps in the world. That was a competitive advantage, and that's why people were going use Airbnb.

我们在应用层投入巨大，设计了这种全新的界面语言。它尚无名称，但绝非扁平化设计。我们长期处于扁平设计主导的世界——这种风格随iOS7兴起。还记得初代iPhone的拟物化设计吗？

We invested a lot on the application layer, and we designed this new interface language. There's no name for it, but it's not flat. We've been living mostly in a world of flat design. Flat design really came out with iOS seven. Remember when you first got an iPhone, they called it skeuomorphic.

一切都是立体的、多彩的，但有点俗气，有点暗沉，有点直白，比如书架的木纹，显得过于具象。后来我们转向扁平化设计，这或许是个合理的过渡阶段。扁平设计更明亮，屏幕不再那么暗沉，它简洁且更易开发，因为三维设计更为复杂。然而如今有了AI，工具变得丰富许多。借助AI图像生成，人们重新爱上了插画。

Everything was dimensional, colorful, but a little bit kitschy, a little bit dark, a little bit literal, like wood grain for a bookshelf, and it was a little too literal. Then we moved to flat design, which might have been a reasonable intermediary step. Flat was brighter, the screens weren't as dark, it was simple, and it was easier to develop, because three-dimensional design is more difficult. Now with AI, though, there's so many more tools. With AI image generation, people are falling back in love with illustration.

他们重新爱上了三维艺术。我们逐渐意识到自己在设备上花费的时间越来越多，因而希望设备里的世界能如现实世界般丰富、生动、多彩。眼前这张桌子是白色的，但细看之下，它并非单一的白色，也不是平面的——实际上蕴含多种色调与色彩。我认为这正是界面设计的未来方向。

They're falling back in love with three-dimensional art. We're starting to realize we're spending more and more time on devices, and we want the world on the device to be as rich and vibrant and colorful as the real world. This table in front of us is a white table, but if you really look at it, it's not just one color of white, it's not flat. It's actually many shades and many colors. I think this is where the interface is going.

我们部分目标是建立全新设计语言的标准——立体、多彩、鲜活、动态，充满生命力的流动感。我们认为这将形成竞争优势。通过打造卓越的界面吸引用户，这是我们在AI时代能做出的贡献。我们的界面设计能力不逊于全球任何团队，这次创造的新界面有望兼具高度直观性与扩展性，适应多样化需求。

Part of what we wanted to do was set a standard for an entirely new design language, which is three-dimensional, colorful, vibrant, animated, it was alive with movement. We thought that was going be a competitive advantage. We're going to have such a great interface that people are going to gravitate to us, and this is what we have to contribute in the age of AI. We can design interfaces as well as anybody in the world, and we've designed this new interface that we think is going be hopefully very intuitive and very extensible to do a lot of different things.

没错。那位工程师把东西交给你时还说了句‘希望他们尽快开源’。你们会开源这个视频播放器吗？

Yeah. That same engineer that he handed that to you by saying, hopefully, they open source it soon. Are you gonna open source the video player saying?

我会和团队商量。个人认为没必要专有化，但需要团队讨论决定。

I I'll talk to the team. I mean, I don't think it needs to be proprietary, but I'll talk to the team.

我这么问是因为你们大谈AI设计。现在很多人用AI对你们的图标进行二次创作——没错，他们把图标上传给AI生成新作品。

One of reasons I asked that is because you are talking a lot about AI design. A lot of people are sharing AI generated rifts on your icons. Yes. They're uploading the icons to AI. They're making new stuff.

你们将设计视为护城河，但AI机器会迅速复制传播这些设计。这是否会削弱护城河的作用？两者如何博弈？

You're talking about design as a moat. And then there's this machine that will just boost your design and put it everywhere. Yeah. And maybe reduce the power of that moat. What's the interaction there?

最终世界将形成这种拉锯战：设计师能以手工方式创作，AI虽能一定程度复制自动化生产，但永远达不到人类的工艺水准。未来不属于纯手工或纯AI，而属于两者的结合。事实上即便没有我们的新应用，任何人都能制作3D图标，但品质不及我们。我们用AI生成获取灵感，但顶级工艺仍需人工雕琢。

Ultimately, I think the world's gonna be this push and pull where I think designers can do things in a handcrafted way. AI is going to be able to somewhat replicate and automate things, but they won't get to the same level of craft as what a person can do. I don't think the future is handcrafted or AI, it's whoever combines the two. The fact is that even before our new app, anyone could create three d icons, but they didn't look as good as ours. We used AI image generation for inspiration, but ultimately, that level of craft still required a hand eye.

即使用AI训练生成图标，仍需人工打磨至完美。AI永远无法超越‘AI+人类’的组合——这才是关键。长远看人类无法战胜AI，但‘人类+AI’始终是最强组合。换句话说，‘人类+AI’是什么？

Even if you use AI generation to train the icons to create your own, you're still going to want to craft them to make them really perfect. AI will never be as good as AI plus people. That's the key point. People can't, in the long run, beat AI, but people plus AI is probably always the most powerful combination. In other words, what is people plus AI?

就是持续引导AI的过程。设计将朝这个方向发展：未来设计更侧重品味与策展，而非手工制作，你要构建的虚拟世界会越来越宏大。我支持人们借鉴Airbnb获取灵感。

It's constantly prompting an AI. That's where design goes. I think in the future, design is less about handcrafting. It's more about taste, it's more about curation, and you're designing bigger and bigger worlds. I'm supportive of people leveraging Airbnb and using it as inspiration.

对于Airbnb来说，当更多人模仿我们的设计并使之成为标准时，我们的设计会少一些独特情感，但这最终对世界是有益的。我并不认为我们面临风险，因为我们将持续实现下一次飞跃、再下一次飞跃。我认为这就是进步。

Airbnb, our design becomes a little less emote because more people copy our design and that becomes the standard, that's ultimately good for the world. I don't think we're at risk because I think we're going to take the next leap and the next leap and the next leap. I think that's just progress.

你显然是与强尼·艾夫合作这个项目的。强尼在你上台时就在现场，他非常欣赏你们公司的理念。我记得他与你们有合约。强尼·艾夫是iOS7扁平化设计的倡导者。

You obviously worked on this with Johnny Ive. Johnny, he was at the event when you were on stage. He loved from his firm. I think he has a contract with you all. Johnny Ive was the proponent of flat design in I s seven.

那是他的项目。

That was his project.

是的。而且他也是推动我们超越扁平化设计的支持者。

Yes. And he was the proponent for us to move past flat design.

那次对话是怎样的？

What was that conversation like?

我记得大约三四年前，我们制作了一个着陆页，类似营销页面。当时用了这种三维等距视图——就是那种没有透视的三分之二视角效果，不太好描述——创造了些立体小世界。

I think the way it happened was three or four years ago, we did this, like, landing page. It was like a marketing page. And we had these three d isometric. Isometrics like when you look at a three quarter view and there's no perspective, it's hard to explain. But these three d little worlds.

强尼看到这些我们创造的立体世界后非常喜欢。他和团队以此为基础探索界面设计，甚至创建了整套三维图标库——虽然最终没有直接采用，但给了我们很大启发。他还参与了许多我们汲取灵感的新界面设计。我注意到所有元素都充满维度感、色彩鲜活、富有动态。尽管他可能是通过iOS7接管苹果软件设计而最广为人知的扁平化设计推手，但同样也是重要灵感来源。

Johnny saw these three d worlds we had created, he loved it. He and his team explored based on that interface design, and he actually had created a whole library of three-dimensional icons, not ones we ended up using, but ones we used as inspiration. He also worked on a lot of the new interfaces that we drew inspiration from. What I noticed is everything was dimensional, colorful, vibrant, animation, movement. While he was the one who probably more singly than anyone popularized flat design through taking over software design at Apple with iOS seven, he was also a big inspiration.

我觉得我们是共同探索的。这不是他个人的构想，而是他、我以及Airbnb设计团队共同经历的旅程。我们都意识到界面设计正在转向新方向——或许这只是时尚潮流。

I think we were in it together. He didn't individually conceive it. He and I and my design team at Airbnb were all on this journey together. And we all realized interface design is going somewhere else. And maybe it's just fashion.

就像极简主义曾风靡一时，而后又出现极繁主义的反弹。或许下一波界面设计浪潮就会如我所说。最终可能还会出现新的反弹——我不确定是否会回归扁平化，也可能是完全不同的形式。但可以确定的是，在AI领域这就是未来趋势，我认为这将非常激动人心。

Almost like minimalism is fashionable, and then the reaction to minimalism is maximalism. Maybe the next wave of interface design is going to be what I'm saying. There may eventually be a reaction to that, you know, and I'm not sure if that will be flat. It might be something totally different. But it's very clear to me that this is where it's going in the world of AI, and I think it's going be really exciting.

所以没错，他们确实是这次设计非常重要的灵感源泉。

So yeah, they were they were very helpful source of inspiration for this.

你知道，这很有趣。我我我确实认为我们正处于设计和软件设计的一个时刻，很多人都在尝试新事物。是的。就像，无论旧事物是什么，都已经结束了。我特别看待AI设计的另一种方式是朝着增强现实的方向发展。

You know, it's interesting. I I I do think we're at a moment in design and software design where there's lots of people are trying new things. Yes. Like, whatever the old thing is is over. The other way that I see AI designs in particular is an eye towards augmented reality.

对吧？你甚至可以在苹果当前的设计中看到一些暗示，他们正朝着那个未来迈进，实际上一切都应该是叠加的。是的。并且有像透明层那样的效果。

Right? And you can see some hints in even Apple's design right now as they head towards that future that actually everything should be like overlays Yeah. And have like layers of transparency.

我喜欢那样。

I'd like that.

你你觉得那很好吗？因为那感觉与你正在做的事情非常不同，你的设计更加动画化，更有质感，更加丰富多彩，而不是我们只是要在现实世界上覆盖玻璃。

You you think that's good? Because that feels very different than kind of what you're doing, which is much more animated, much more textural, much more colorful as opposed to we're just gonna put glass over the real world.

没有理由你不能两者兼顾。只是，比如，我们只设计用于手机和基本上是笔记本电脑的软件，它们是单一的世界，它们是通往现实世界的桥梁，所以我们设计这些设备，而增强现实平台还没有真正获得任何有意义的采用，对Airbnb来说并不实用。我想也许，最大的想法是什么？最大的想法可能是支配这一切的，可能是描述我们设计语言的走向，我们带领公司去往何方，以及我对未来的愿景，就是现实世界是神奇的。想象一下，Niele，等一下。

There's no reason you couldn't do both. It's just that, like, we only design software for phones and basically laptops, and they're singular worlds, and they're bridges to the real world, so we design these devices, and augmented reality platforms haven't really gotten any meaningful adoption to be useful for Airbnb. I think maybe, What's the biggest idea? The biggest idea that might govern all of this, that might describe where we're going with the design language, where we're taking the company, and my vision for the future, is the real world's magical. Imagine, Niele, a second.

这有点荒谬，但想象一下现实世界不存在，我们只生活在设备上。突然，一个像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样的人物站在舞台上发明了现实世界。并说，今天，我要介绍现实世界。你会环顾四周，你会说，哦，天哪。很容易忘记现实世界有多么不可思议。

It's kind of an absurd thing, but imagine the real world didn't exist, and we only lived on devices. Suddenly, a Steve Jobs like figure stood on stage and invented the real world. And said, today, I'm introducing the real world. And you'd be looking around, you'd be like, oh my god. It's easy to forget how incredible the real world is.

我认为界面设计，我们的产品，一切都会进入现实世界。也许另一种说法不是我们将都生活在这些数字现实中，而是我们将把这些带入现实世界，这些东西不会融合，而最神奇的地方是现实世界，但我们如何增强它并使其尽可能特别？我们在界面设计上的尝试本质上是模拟现实世界，但以一种简化、策划的方式。它不像现实世界那样混乱，因为它必须比你环境中看到的各种事物的嘈杂声更加直观。我认为现实世界是神奇的。

I think interface design, our product, everything is going to go into the real world. Maybe another way of saying it isn't that we're going to all live in these digital realities, it's that we're going to bring those into the real world, that these things aren't going to converge, and that the most magical place is the real world, but how can we augment it and make it as special as possible? Our attempt with interface design is to essentially simulate the real world, but in a simplified, curated way. It's not as chaotic as the real world, because it's got to be much more intuitive than a cacophony of things that you see in your environment. I think the real world's magical.

这就是为什么我专注于体验。这就是为什么我专注于连接。这就是为什么我专注于服务。这就是为什么我专注于模仿现实世界的设计语言。我认为连接在线世界和离线世界将是巨大的。

That's why I'm focused on experiences. That's why I'm focused on connections. That's why I'm focused on services. That's why I'm focused on a design language that mimics the real world. I think bridging the online world and the offline world is going to be massive.

AI还没有触及它将为这个世界做什么的表面，因为它主要只影响数字世界。绝大多数数据都在物理世界中。只要想想这个物理世界中的输入量和发生的事情。我感兴趣的是在线世界和离线世界的连接。它们之间的互动是什么？

AI has not scratched the surface of what it's going do for this world, because it's mostly only affecting the digital world. The vast majority of the data is in the physical world. Just think about the amount of inputs and things happening in this physical world. That's where I'm interested is the connection of the online world and offline world. What is the interaction between those?

对我来说，那里有魔力。

To me, there's magic there.

好的。那么现在我必须问你。你多次提到你的朋友萨姆·奥特曼。我们也多次讨论过乔尼·艾维。他参与了你的公司。

Alright. So now I have to ask you. You've mentioned Sam Altman, who's your friend a bunch of times. We've talked about Johnny Ive several times. He's involved in your company.

乔尼·艾维也在与奥特曼合作，他的公司Love From正与OpenAI共同开发听起来像是下一代设备的东西。艾维在最近的会议上暗示过这一点，且有报道称你也参与其中。这是怎么回事？你们是在考虑开发一款超越手机的新一代设备吗？

Johnny Ive also working with Altman, his company Love From working with OpenAI on what sounds like a next generation device. Ive has hinted at this at recent conferences, and there's reporting that you're involved. What's going on there? Are you are you thinking about a next generation post phone device?

我只能说——因为我不能透露太多——我很自豪是我介绍他们认识的。乔尼当时在和我合作，我觉得他应该认识萨姆，我就告诉萨姆，这是我们这个时代最伟大的设计师之一。我很高兴促成他们合作，我迫不及待想看看会有什么成果。

All I will say, because I can't say anything, is that I'm proud to have been the one to introduce the two of them. Johnny was working with me, and I thought, you know, he should know Sam, and I told Sam, like, this is one of the greatest designers of our generation. I was happy to bring them together, and I can't wait to see what happens.

好吧。我要最后再问一个尖锐的问题来结束。你是我认识的对苹果观察最深入的人之一。你对这家公司的架构、运作方式和发展历程思考很多。上次你来节目时，我问你他们下一步该怎么做，你当时说——我引用你的原话——

Alright. I'm gonna take one more shot and a spicy one to end here. You are one of the closest watchers of Apple that I know. You've thought a lot about the company and how it's structured and how it works and how it grew to be its size. The last time you were on the show, I I asked you what they should do next, and you said my you said this is a quote.

你说过：‘我的不请自来的建议是，当蒂姆决定退休时，下一任CEO应该同时兼任首席产品官。苹果需要深刻的产品思维。’鉴于目前苹果面临的所有监管压力、开发者社区的焦虑、反垄断案件、谷歌搜索收入的流失，我现在最犀利的看法是：也许36个月后，我们会认不出苹果和谷歌变成什么样子。也许它们被拆分，也许收入结构彻底改变。

You said, my unsolicited advice is that whenever Tim decides to retire, the next CEO should also be the chief product officer. That they need a deep product thinking at Apple. My spiciest take right now given all the regulatory pressure on Apple, the angst from its developer community, the antitrust cases, Google's search revenue going away, is it maybe in thirty six months, we don't recognize what Apple and Google have become. Maybe they're broken up. Maybe their revenue has totally shifted.

你认为苹果现在处于什么位置？你觉得它目前需要采取哪些行动？

Where do you see the company is now? Where do you think any what moves do think it needs to take right now?

蒂姆似乎是接替史蒂夫的完美人选，所以我并不是在批评他作为继任者。我认为他成功延续了发展势头。史蒂夫选择把公司交给他，而他把握住了这个机遇。可以说史蒂夫给了他一个15年的跑道——带着史上最成功的产品。现在去扩大规模、实现量产、普及化、提升效率。

Tim seems to have been the perfect successor for Steve, so I'm not criticizing Tim as a successor. I think he was able to take the momentum. Steve made a choice to give him the company, and he was able to take this kind of runway. Steve gave him, call it, a 15 runway with the most successful product ever invented. Now go here, scale this, manufacture this, make it ubiquitous, make it more efficient.

他们做到了，而且非常成功。归根结底，史蒂夫对苹果的原始愿景是：人类是工具制造者，我们创造工具让人们改变世界。这基本上就是核心理念。对苹果最重要的是持续创造新的计算工具。现在他们准备好了。

And they did that, and they were very successful. Ultimately, Steve's original vision for Apple is that humans are tool builders, we create tools for people to change the world. That was basically the idea. The most important thing for Apple is they keep creating new computing tools. They're now ready.

有人可能说他们晚了，但从历史长河看或许并不重要，因为他们依然极其成功。只有当他们开始失去大量市场份额、无法招聘人才、核心团队纷纷离职时，才算真正晚了。所以我不认为他们有那么落后。但他们确实需要推出下一个伟大工具。问题在于，如果负责人不是首席产品官，而是一个职能型组织——

Some could say they're late, but in the grand scheme of history it doesn't really matter, maybe, because they're still hugely successful. They're only truly late if they start losing a huge amount of market share and they can't hire and all their talent starts leaving. So I don't think they're that late. But they do need to come up with the next great tools. I think the problem is, the person, if they're not the Chief Product Officer, they're also a functional organization.

那到底是谁在推动产品？谁在做最终决策？谁在确保这是伟大的事物并调配资源？在职能型组织中，这就是为什么公司需要事业部制结构。如果没有专人负责决策，最终就会变成一群平级的人共同决策。

Who's actually driving the product? Who's actually making all the decisions? Who's actually making sure this is a great thing in marshaling resources? In a functional organization, this is why companies have divisional structures. If you don't have a person in charge making decisions, you end up having a bunch of peers make decisions.

一群同僚不适合作为决策群体的原因有两点。其一，他们往往做出大量折中决定，最终无法达成最果敢、最高质量的决策。其二，流程极其缓慢，因为无人能指挥他人，只能持续协商。且同事间因需长期共事而保持礼貌，没人敢越界冒犯。

The reason a bunch of peers aren't a good assembly of people to make a decision is two things happen. Number one, they tend to make a lot of compromised decisions. You never end up with the boldest, better quality decision. The second thing is it's really slow, because no one can tell anyone else what to do, so you have to just go on. And people are polite to each other because they have to work with them, so no one can step on each other's toes.

于是你得到的组织成员彬彬有礼、谨守界限、思考发言都趋于渐进——这是维持现状的完美配方，却非创新的良方。实际上只有两种选择：要么像乔布斯那样由产品负责人执掌公司（或许这类人才已不复存在）；

So you have an organization of people that are polite, that are not stepping on each other's toes, that are thinking and speaking fairly incrementally, and that's a good recipe for perpetuating something. It's not a good recipe for inventing something. You really have two choices. Choice number one is you get a product person to run the company like the way Steve did. Maybe that person doesn't exist, maybe they do.

要么将决策权下放至各部门，回归事业部制。但苹果向来以设计集成系统为傲，这种模式自有弊端。亚马逊就是如此运作，真正实现单线程负责人决策——这与苹果现有文化基因截然不同。我认为苹果的使命始终是打造改变世界的工具，

Choice two is then you have to push decision making through the org and go back to a divisional structure. But Apple prides themselves in its design and integrated system, and so that is going to have its own downside. That's how Amazon runs, where they really push decision making down to single threaded owners. And that would be really different culturally for where they're going. So I think Apple's mission is to build tools to help people change the world.

他们需要推出新设备、新工具，更需要领军人物。我常问：乔布斯时代的首席产品官是谁？众人答即乔布斯本人。再问现任是谁，却无人能明确回答。宏观来看这尚未构成问题，毕竟iPhone已持续领先十八年，

They need to come out with these new devices, they need to come out with new tools, and they need somebody to able to spearhead that. I keep asking, who was the chief product officer when Steve was alive? And everyone said Steve was. And I asked who they are now, and they say, well, it's not clear who it is. And it probably hasn't, in the grand scheme of things, been a problem because the iPhone's been on this eighteen year run.

但要开创下一个时代，他们需要那个关键人物。

But to do the next thing, I think they need that person.

这正应和了我关于36个月后的观点。现代互联网的崛起某种程度上得益于微软当年的监管困境，才让谷歌等公司得以崛起。

This comes to my my point about thirty six months from now. Right? The modern Internet that we are all building on kinda happened because Microsoft had a bunch of regulatory problems. Yeah. And companies like Google were able to succeed.

苹果当年能宣称'网络是未来，买iMac而非Windows电脑吧'，正因为开放网络未受威胁。如今这些巨头...

Companies like Apple were able to say, look, web's a big deal. Buy an iMac instead of a Windows PC because the open web has not been threatened by this. Yeah. Okay. Well, here are these giants.

已显颓势。对吧？他们可能正被自身利益纠纷困扰。你是否看到类似历史机遇正在重现？

They're a little shaky. Yeah. Right? They're they might be distracted by their own interest troubles. Do you see opportunity there in the way that there was opportunity in the past?

确实。我认为有两股力量正在交汇：九十年代微软因反垄断调查分心，人们担忧其借互联网过度扩张。而新技术革命往往分散权力而非集中——或许AI是个例外，

Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, there's these two forces that are combining together. Like, in the nineties, you had Microsoft distracted by antitrust regulation and the fears of them becoming too powerful with the rise of the Internet. The rise of new technologies tend not to consolidate power, they tend to democratize. Maybe AI is different.

有种理论认为富豪会更富，因为算力成本形成壁垒，最终使其达到超级智能的逃逸速度。但我直觉这有误——历史从未如此演进。每个新平台更迭都会重塑权力格局，通常会转向具有原生文化的新创公司。

There's this theory that the rich get richer because there's so much money required for compute, and it becomes a runaway train, and no one ever catches them, and they reach this super intelligence escape velocity. But I don't know. My intuition is that it's not right, because that's not how it's ever been in history. Every new platform shift is a shift to who's in power. And it often shifts to the new startups that are native, or at least have a native culture.

苹果是个独特案例，这家成立于70年代的老牌公司成功转型互联网平台，而这恰逢史蒂夫·乔布斯的回归。他们以初创企业般的创始人思维实现了跨越。我认为在AI时代，企业必须保持创始人导向的创业模式，因为需要像初创公司那样灵活应变。但这些由职业经理人管理的大公司缺乏相应组织架构，难以适应新世界的挑战。

Apple is a unique example, where they were an old company from the '70s that made the platform shift to the internet, but that also coincided with the return of Steve Jobs. They had this startup like founder mentality that was able to get there. I think these companies are going to need to be able to do that. In the age of AI, my argument is you need to be founder oriented, founder mode, because you're going need to be able to move like a startup to be able to adapt. And these big professionally managed companies aren't organized to be able to do that, so they don't bode well for this new world.

但我认为监管并非关键，更多是种干扰——虽然干扰可能让人分心。重要的是我们正处在新浪潮中：第一波是现代计算机，第二波是互联网，现在可能是第三波。移动互联网算一波，而这次是更广泛的技术革命浪潮。

But I really do think it's probably less about regulation. I think regulation is more of a distraction, but a distraction can take your eye off the ball. I think the big thing is, we're in the next wave. The first wave of modern technology was the personal computer, the second wave was the internet, and this was probably the third wave. Mobile was a wave, this is more of a generalized technology wave.

这将引发寒武纪大爆发式的创新。我的直觉是，将涌现出众多极具实力的新公司。我们这些大企业虽不及苹果，但都像高速公路上的车辆——后视镜里正有无数追赶者。今日的掌权者未必能笑到明天。

I think this is going to lead to a Cambrian explosion. My intuition is, there's going to be so many companies that are so powerful rising up. All of us that are big, we're not as big as Apple, but we're all like cars on a highway. A lot of people are coming through That the rearview mirror. Which is in power today may not be in power tomorrow.

所谓'大公司垄断需要拆分'的论调忽略了关键：技术浪潮自然会瓦解它们。我们真正要做的是全速前进。这与文化息息相关——为什么组织结构图和创始人模式如此重要？因为没人想错过下一波浪潮。

The idea that we need to break up companies because they're too powerful the bigger issue is, of course, the technology is going to break them up. The technology wave is going to break them up. So all of us have to be moving as fast as we can. What does that have to do with it? That has to do with culture.

正因如此，诸多讨论最终都回归到组织架构与创始人模式，这本质上关乎企业文化和运营方式——毕竟谁都不愿被时代淘汰。

That's why, to me, so many roads lead back to the conversation we have with org charts and founder mode, because you don't want to miss the next wave. And that really is all about the culture and how you operate.

布莱恩，这话题简直聊不完。看来你得第五次做客我们节目了。

Brian, I can obviously talk to you about this forever. I think you're gonna have to come back a fifth time.

是啊，我太喜欢这些讨论了。

I know. I just love these.

精彩绝伦。非常感谢参加《解码者》节目。

This is great. Thank you so much for being on Decoder.

谢谢邀请，荣幸之至。

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

感谢布莱恩抽空参与《解码者》，也感谢各位听众。希望你们和我一样享受本期内容。如有任何意见或建议，欢迎来信。邮箱地址：Decoder@theverge.com，我们每封邮件都会认真阅读。

I'd like to thank Brian for taking time to join Decoder, and thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you'd like to let us know what you thought about this episode or really anything else at all, drop us a line. You can email us at Decoder@theverge.com. We really do read all the emails.

你也可以直接在Threads或Blue Sky上联系我，我们还有TikTok和Instagram账号，都叫Decoder pod，非常有趣。如果你喜欢，请分享给你的朋友，并在你获取播客的任何平台订阅我们。《Decoder》是The Verge出品，隶属于Vox Media播客网络。我们的制作人是Kate Cox和Nick Statt。

You can also hit me up directly on threads or blue sky, and we have a TikTok and an Instagram. They're both at Decoder pod and a lot of fun. If like you to, please share with your friends and subscribe wherever you get podcasts. Decoder's production of verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt.

我们的编辑是Ursa Wright。《Decoder》的音乐由Breakmaster Cylinder制作。下次节目再见。

Our editors are Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. We'll see you next time.